[HN Gopher] Tesla won't give drivers their own crash data withou... ___________________________________________________________________ Tesla won't give drivers their own crash data without a court order (2018) Author : ddtaylor Score : 109 points Date : 2022-06-04 21:00 UTC (1 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.consumeraffairs.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.consumeraffairs.com) | dubswithus wrote: | Logs don't lie or is there a bug? It would be telling if someone | had a dashcam pointed at their feet. | Patrol8394 wrote: | Welcome to CaaS! Soon people will find themselves having to pay | subscriptions to drive their own car! Crazy! | cuteboy19 wrote: | That's just a rental car | stcredzero wrote: | More likely, there will be a subscription for the Full Self | Driving software, combined with human drivers being restricted | or banned. | inkeddeveloper wrote: | Tesla out here just pushing as many boundaries as they can. | t0mas88 wrote: | Funny how they are so "protective of the customer's privacy" that | they have their CEO tweeting about the data but can't share it | privately with the affected customer. | | Tesla doesn't have a PR department but they're full of PR | bullshit anyway, starting at the top. | ModernMech wrote: | Tesla's PR department is Elon Musk and his PR team. I don't | understand how people view him as an engineer, he's full of | flim-flam and bluster. | trothamel wrote: | And also practical electric cars, reusable crewed rockets, | and worldwide high-speed satellite Internet. | | Is it bluster when it can be backed up? | extheat wrote: | Yeah better not say anything at all. Don't want to end up being | accused of "PR bullshit". | [deleted] | [deleted] | pvg wrote: | Discussed at the time, 282 comment thread: | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17237792 | tiahura wrote: | The phone companies have the same policy. | kringo wrote: | That's the driving force behind these connected cars. They'll | make you pay for the car and collect all the data they could and | make the money off it. | | Compare it to google, they're valuable because of the data that's | being stored about every individual, imagine the same thing for | Tesla. | | Data is currency | akerl_ wrote: | Is Tesla selling any data/metadata? To whom? How are they | making money off of my data? | gcheong wrote: | They're not selling it as far as I know, but you're | essentially providing them with free training data for their | autopilot/self-driving AI which they do/plan to make money | off of. In that respect it seems odd that they would be so | stingy in handing data over to the person that generated it | though you can apparently purchase a connection kit to access | the event recorder data for about $3k. | jayd16 wrote: | They offer insurance rates based on the data. | digisign wrote: | In this case it looks more like loss aversion, protecting | themselves from customer lawsuits. I'm sure there are other | use cases for the data. Self-driving improvements have been | mentioned. | NonNefarious wrote: | I suspect that this policy violates some privacy provisions in | some states and countries. Don't California (and probably | other) laws guarantee you the right to obtain any data a | company has on you? | user00012-ab wrote: | Why do people post "news" from 4 years ago? News mostly isn't | relevant a few weeks later; it would make sense if their was some | follow up story or something about this. Even weirder is how | people comment on this story like it just happened, did anyone | actually check to see if this is still the case 4 years later? | [deleted] | pvg wrote: | Just flag it. The meta inadvertently helps make it a worse | thread on top of a bad post. | LegitShady wrote: | popular to attack Tesla at the moment | JaimeThompson wrote: | It would be less popular it Tesla had leadership that lead by | example instead of dictate and if they stopped making | promises they can't execute on year after year. | LegitShady wrote: | that's not why a lot of the attacks on tesla are happening | - the twitter acquisition and elon being political on | twitter have opened him up to lots of people attacking his | companies. | LeoPanthera wrote: | Tesla is very divisive, a lot of people get a sense of power | and superiority by posting anything that makes them look bad. | The subtext is "See? I'm smarter than you by hating Tesla." | | This isn't exclusive to Tesla. | influxmoment wrote: | 100%. Tesla hating brings out the crazy | barkingcat wrote: | there are also those folks who don't know large pieces of | current events and keep surfacing 10 year ago news as actual | news (and treat it as occurring now). | digisign wrote: | Things like this don't tend to change without force of law. Do | you have proof that it has? | ddtaylor wrote: | I think it's historically interesting and people often miss | stories from years ago. | pvg wrote: | There was a big Tesla quality and safety problems story | yesterday | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31610950 | | And there's one every week or two. The repetition kills | interestingness | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31487646 | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31479840 | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31446523 | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31430407 | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31398021 | iamleppert wrote: | If they don't have anything to hide, why not allow access to the | logs? I highly doubt the 0-100 claim. Raw sensor data of the | accelerator is likely to be sampled at a high enough rate that | should make something like that impossible. In fact, the car | should have at minimum a low pass filter and reject sudden | accelerations like that, which would indicate sensor or signal | failure. If it's a digital sensor, and sampled high enough, even | if someone did "floor it", you'd still be able to see a gradual | increase, just at a faster rate. When a sensor all of a sudden | reports a huge, non-linear jump, it generally means there is some | sort of failure. And if that's within normal operating | conditions, the sample rate of the sensor isn't enough to tell | the difference between failures and intentional (real) readings, | and reject a failed sensor. And that's a problem too and 101 in | any sensors and signals implementation. If it's a digital sensor | on something as important as braking and acceleration, there had | better be redundant sensors, a mechanism to fuse the data | together, and reject a bad sensor from the state estimate of the | pedal. | | Either way, just based on the statements they made anyone who has | worked with anything robotics or autonomous can tell you that | first instinct would be sensor failure. Of course, all of this is | impossible to tell without the raw log data. Companies who are | unwilling to provide such data or make it difficult to do so | generally have something to hide in either their implementation, | data quality, or the actual findings from the logs themselves. | powerbroker wrote: | I just did a quick scrape of the NHTSA consumer-reported | complaints for all models of Teslas for the month of May. 78 | reports. 2 concern unintended acceleration. | | Mind you, 'unintended acceleration' reports come from all | manufacturers and all models of cars -- so a fair starting | position is that the driver mistook the accelerator for the | brake. Nevertheless, it seems that giving the crash data promptly | to the consumer would clarify to the consumer that they have 'fat | feet', and settle the matter, at least in the consumer's mind. | | Incidentally, I narrowly missed getting hit by a lady who drove | her car (non-Tesla) into a local Fedex-Kinkos, having left the | store 5 minutes earlier, and returned 5 minutes after her car | 'parked' inside the store. | alexanderdmitri wrote: | I'm not sure driver mistaking the pedals is a fair starting | point with the amount of software involved now a days. Telsas | push updates over the air that affect these sorts of things. In | this article[0] for example, it's suggested a once optional | feature that is now mandatory can be used for one pedal | driving. | | [0] https://electrek.co/2022/05/25/tesla-updates-car-software- | re... | kentonv wrote: | In my Tesla I've had the experience a couple times of trying to | hit the break, but accidentally pressing both petals at once. | When this happens, a notice appears on the dashboard saying | both petals are being pressed and so the car has decided you | intended to brake. | | I don't think I've ever had this problem in another car (though | admittedly, probably no other car I've driven would alert me if | I did). It seems like the petals are placed a little | differently from most cars and this makes it easier to | accidentally hit both petals. I wonder if the computer's | detection of this condition and decision to prioritize braking | is a new feature since 2018... | anonymousiam wrote: | It's interesting that all the accounts reported by Tesla indicate | that ..."the accelerator pedal was abruptly increased to 100%." | How likely is it that, even if by accident, the driver would | fully depress the accelerator pedal? How many people fully | depress the brake pedal when stopping? Usually while parking, | there is no need to fully depress the brake because sufficient | braking action is achieved with less pressure, and the car will | come to a stop gradually instead of abruptly. | | Maybe they have a CAN bus problem, or a software problem that | they do not want to reveal. | IshKebab wrote: | I'd say it's quite likely that people would fully depress the | accelerator when they meant to fully depress the brake. | Especially with cars with cruise control where your foot might | not already be on a pedal. | | I don't think you need to reach for any more conspiratorial | explanations when there's a blindingly obvious one available. | | It would be interesting to see the data just before - were any | pedals pressed? | GuB-42 wrote: | Probably unrelated but if you have a manual gearbox, with a | clutch pedal, when you are about to stop, you disengage the | clutch to prevent the engine from stalling. | | Clutch pedals are operated with the left foot and meant to be | fully depressed. If you are used to drive stick and switch to | auto, you may accidentally hit the break hard with your left | foot, as if it was the clutch. | | So if you see someone breaking hard at the red light for no | reason, especially if it is a rental car just out of the | airport, it is probably the reason. | | I did it, Most of my (European) friends who rented a car in the | US did it too. | bdamm wrote: | The accelerator is actually two sensors, each independently | sampling the pedal position. | | So, yes, not that likely that both fail simultaneously. | | In fact, the pedal is not even a Tesla part. | potatochup wrote: | The brake pedal is physically connected to a hydraulic | cylinder. You need to be very strong to fully engage the brake | pedal, such that many vehicles, when presented with a sharp | brake pedal stab, will electronically increase the amount of | brake pressure given (because the system assumes you want to | stop, but the driver may not be strong enough/have the right | feeling for where maximum pedal application is). If you did | this at speed, you'd probably engage ABS which tends to mess | with the force-feedback though. | | On the other hand, the accelerator pedal is just a sensor, it | doesn't require as much force to fully depress. I'd estimate | the force required to fully depress the accelerator pedal to be | 1/3 of the brake pedal. | anonymousiam wrote: | It is my understanding that Teslas have regenerative braking. | Are you sure that the brake pedal is physically connected to | a hydraulic cylinder? | Xorlev wrote: | Regen braking works by letting off the accelerator, not by | pressing the brake. | vel0city wrote: | Yes and no. A lot of EVs can do two different modes, | where it "coasts" and mostly only starts the regen | through the brake pedal. You're right though, from what I | understand Tesla kind of forces the single-pedal driving | mode. | gcheong wrote: | But if it's just a sensor, couldn't it be possible that | sensor generates an erroneous signal such that it tells the | car to accelerate when nobody actually pressed it? | buro9 wrote: | It would be interesting to see whether European Tesla owners can | utilise the GDPR to obtain the data. | bjelkeman-again wrote: | I am convinced they can. | t0mas88 wrote: | If it's linked to an individual, they can. And I'm sure Tesla | data is linked to an individual via their account. | zoydnog wrote: | Someone should try to send them a variant of that 'nightmare | GDPR letter'. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-06-04 23:00 UTC)