[HN Gopher] EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for m... ___________________________________________________________________ EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices Author : geox Score : 387 points Date : 2022-06-07 10:50 UTC (12 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.engadget.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.engadget.com) | tzs wrote: | > "Today we have made the common charger a reality in Europe!" | said the European Parliament's rapporteur Alex Agius Saliba in a | press statement. "European consumers were frustrated long with | multiple chargers piling up with every new device. Now they will | be able to use a single charger for all their portable | electronics." | | The devices this covers, those rechargeable by a wired cable | according to the EU press release, have pretty much all used USB | chargers for a long time so I don't see how this addresses the | issue of multiple chargers piling up. At most it addresses the | issue of multiple USB to X _cables_ piling up, where X is most | commonly Lightning. | | Unless they also prohibit selling devices with USB chargers I | have doubts that this will stop the bundling. Apple has tried to | stop including chargers on the theory that nearly everyone | already has a bunch lying around, and has drawn a lot of | complaints over that, and fines in Brazil where the government | regulators have decided that not bundling chargers with every | phone is anti-consumer. | theptip wrote: | So every upgrading iPhone user in the world needs to discard | every single charging device they own, including expensive multi- | device chargers like phone+watch. In the short-term this clearly | produces _more_ e-waste. I wonder if anyone made an estimate of | the break-even time here. One year? Ten? Will everyone be | discarding their chargers and switching to wireless before break- | even is achieved? | | How much money does it cost for the USB-D spec to get approved by | the EU if/when that is released? (How much did the USB-C industry | groups spend on lobbying to get this done)? This seems like a | much less significant concern but I am curious what order of | magnitude we are dealing with here. | | This legislation would have been great twenty years ago when | there were lots of proprietary plugs on phones, but it seems much | less substantial of an issue now in my experience. | metalliqaz wrote: | No reason to toss everything until your current phone is no | longer used. And Apple isn't exactly shy about changing their | connectors, so such might already be the case for upcoming | phones. In any case, I'm pretty sure Apple will go to to full | wireless before long. | theptip wrote: | Right, like I said, every _upgrading_ user needs to replace. | macinjosh wrote: | I'd love to see Apple just leave the EU market or only offer a | single old phone model with USB-C added. They have enough money | to do it. Bullies like the EU should be stood up to. | dedzycide wrote: | Huh? Why is EU the bad guy lol? Every single company except | Apple switched to USB-C. Apple is just milking money out of | their customers with overpriced Lightning cables. It's sad to | see people defend this predatory behavior. | rob_c wrote: | There is little to no incentive to stop tiktok streamers and | vapid tech fans throwing out their 6 month old devices and | upgrading. But it's a start. | | Whilst important, we have done much better to FORCE the industry | to provide security support and updates as part of the sale of | devices for a minimum of 5 years on all products. This is one of | the biggest insurmountable reasons I see for people who don't | even want to, to have to upgrade because of the locked down | nature of phones/watches/washing-machines/hoovers/etc... | | Although I doubt it'll be the EU project to push through | something so bold that will have enough of an impact. | jokabrink wrote: | The whole discussion reminds me a bit of the similar move the EU | did back in 2009: Introduce a (voluntary) common external power | supply (Micro-USB). | | Now, I feel the same arguments are brought in again. 1) Hinders | innovation 2) Lock on a single technology 3) Creates trash by | soon obsolete "deprecated" connector types | | My bet: 2024 (!) onwards, nearly nobody will be affected by the | "downsides". | garaetjjte wrote: | Alternative history: EU actually makes micro-B mandatory back | in 2009, and as a result USB-C never gained traction because | all phones were forced by law to use micro-B. | enragedcacti wrote: | The regulation as written specifically accounts for | advancements in standards and includes options to switch to a | new mandatory port over a period of years. It also | specifically mentions USB-IF as an organization to work with | for such future standards. | | Safe to say we would probably have standardized on USB-C even | sooner had they passed this law for micro-B in 2009. | simondanerd wrote: | Will that have an effect on the devices sold on the US market? I | would love an iPhone with USB-C. | spywaregorilla wrote: | Seems probable. I'm hopeful as well. | akmarinov wrote: | Either (sorted most likely to least likely): | | 1. All iPhones get USB-C | | 2. Only EU iPhones get USB-C, US sticks with lightning | | 3. iPhones become portless with wireless charging only | tyingq wrote: | I imagine there's also some option where you can charge your | iPhone with any USB-C charger, but the special Apple charger | will charge it up faster. | rootusrootus wrote: | They provide a USB-C charger already, and it's not | magically faster than good quality third-party chargers. | It's top-end, for sure, but not proprietary. | tyingq wrote: | Right, the idea being the EU mandate would reduce sales | of their charger, and eliminate sales of their USB-C -> | Lightning cable. And how they might respond. | [deleted] | bluescrn wrote: | Portless could be a pain for developers, if the only way to | deploy/debug is wifi, and the only way to charge is a | wireless charger (which may not be able to keep up with the | discharge rate of a device being used to test a game/app all | day) | akmarinov wrote: | Well Apple's priorities have always been: | | 1. Apple | | 2. Users | | 3. Developers | | so they'll sacrifice developer experience with not a second | thought. | rmm wrote: | They will probably have data transfer through the MagSafe | by then. | | https://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph- | Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=... | kingsleyopara wrote: | This all seems pretty short sighted. Great in the short term (I | want a USB-C iPhone and for everything _today_ to be USB-C) but | will surely be a pain going forward - where would USB-C be if | this policy had standardised on micro USB earlier? Some will say | wireless is the future but I'm not convinced. Maybe the best | solution would be to have this policy expire after a certain | number of years? | amelius wrote: | > where would USB-C be if this policy had standardised on micro | USB earlier? | | It would be a separate port next to the micro-USB port. | | The point is that we don't need a new connector every few years | for charging a device. This saves e-waste, since the chargers | can stay the same. For data, you might want to have a new | connector, though. | rubyfan wrote: | The baked in expiration seems like a great idea. | RGamma wrote: | Micro USB _was_ the standardized smartphone port for years | (around the time of the feature phone- >smartphone transition): | https://techcrunch.com/2009/06/29/micro-usb-to-be-the-standa... | hoistbypetard wrote: | It wasn't that standardized. Between my house and the office | around that time, I had a mix of micro USB, mini USB and | barrel ports. And always had the wrong adapter with me, it | seemed. | rootusrootus wrote: | Agree, I still have a gaggle of random USB cables for | various devices. Micro USB was common, but far from | standardized. And on top of that, it sucks. I keep a bunch | of spares around because it's such a fragile connector. | Quanttek wrote: | The article already hints at it, but lawmakers are not | completely dense and allow for relatively easy amendments by | the Commission. From the legislation [1]: | | > "With respect to radio equipment capable of being recharged | via wired charging, the Commission is empowered to adopt | delegated acts in accordance with Article 44 to amend Annex Ia | in the light of technical progress, and to ensure the minimum | common interoperability between radio equipment and their | charging devices, by: (a) modifying, adding or removing | categories or classes of radio equipment; (b) modifying, adding | or removing technical specifications, including references and | descriptions, in relation to the charging receptacle(s) and | charging communication protocol(s), for each category or class | of radio equipment concerned." | | [1] https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/46755 | est31 wrote: | That's good but usually a new standard is phased in for one | or two models to gain experience with it and then increasing | numbers of phones use it. If you require all phones to use it | from day one, you lose that. You'd at least need an | "experimentation" mechanism where the commission allows | manufacturers to build different devices that represent a few | percent of their sales. | cdash wrote: | Experimentation can still happen by having 2 ports. Might | not be practical for phones since they are so small these | days but it being on phones wouldn't be necessary for | testing a new universal standard. It could be tested on | other larger devices. | bluGill wrote: | Phones have been doing USB charging for more than 10 years | now. USB-C was designed based on the experience, and is | what most phones use already. | | Your point isn't wrong, but is is several years out of | date: USB-C is already well past the few models to gain | experience point and now moving to the late adopter part of | the cycle. A phone without USB-C charging is as quaint as a | phone with a rotary dial at this point. | est31 wrote: | USB charging, yes, but USB-C is not used for that long. | We might have USB-D in the future. I doubt that it's the | end of technological development. | netheril96 wrote: | I blame Apple on this (as an iPhone user). If they had adopted | USB-C sooner, or if they had invented something much better | than USB-C, this regulation would never pass. | | Right now, the charging speed of iPhone is way less than | Android phone sold in China. Here most phones charge at 50W+, | some at 120W, several times faster than iPhone. While the | limitation is not because of Lightning, it is hard to maintain | a straight face when Apple insists that they use Lightning | because of technical advantage. | edent wrote: | What's interesting is that nearly all of my recent electronics | purchases have used USB-C. | | Headphones, thermal printer, neck-cooler, rechargable screwdriver | - all USB-C. | | What's weird are the few things which don't. Amazon Alexa use a | barrel charger. Brand new HP printer has the old square style USB | plug. Pulse Oximeter user micro-USB. | | So C is certainly getting there. Appearing in cheap and expensive | products. And, I'm happy to say, works well. Just needs a few | laggards to update! | [deleted] | basisword wrote: | >> What's interesting is that nearly all of my recent | electronics purchases have used USB-C. | | I've started noticing this recently. It's taken longer than I | thought but the only devices remaining I have that I need to | search for cables for are my iPhone/Apple Watch/old iPod. | Everything else, including laptops, I usually have a USB-C | charger already plugged in and ready to go no matter what room | I'm in. | | It makes sense that there should be a standard for this, just | like we do (although it varies by country) for our plugs. | ProZsolt wrote: | I usually try to buy devices with detachable IEC 60320[1] | mains cable. So when I move to a different country I only | need to change the cables and not the devices. | | [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60320 | bloppe wrote: | A lot of people saying "USB-C cables aren't even compatible with | each other!" (Nintendo switch etc.) Guess what: that's exactly | the problem this regulation is intended to solve. Fake USB-C | cables like Nintendo's that have the right shape but do not | adhere to spec should gradually disappear along with lightning | cables. The regulation actually says that cables can no longer be | bundled with the devices themselves, so Nintendo would stop | sending you that fake cable with your switch, and you would just | buy a real one to work with all your devices. | | Other people saying "what about innovation!?" That's fine. Let's | say the USB consortium releases USB-D with input from Apple, | Google, and many other stakeholders. The EU can set another | deadline for newly released devices to adhere to the new version | instead of the old one. The transition will involve a period of | time where older devices are still on C and newer ones on D, | which is totally compatible with the regulation and is necessary | with or without regulation. It's ludicrous to think companies | won't be able to "iterate": you would be crazy to go to market | with any cable technology that isn't already very mature. Apple | spent years designing lighting chargers because they knew that | once they were released they'd be around for a long time (and | they have been!) | cm2187 wrote: | In fact interoperability is what enables innovation, vs walled | gardens. | bsnal wrote: | Seems like history of computing goes against this | jchw wrote: | When in history has interoperability not been a catalyst | for innovation? Look at everything people do in browsers | now. Or if that's not to your taste, perhaps the era of | BASIC is a better example. Not all standards are good, but | a decent standard is better, or at least much more | practically useful, than a lot of better but incompatible | proprietary equivalents. | | Of course it doesn't have to be mandated, and in the past | usually wasn't, but hell, it's hard to see many good | reasons to not standardize on USB-C. It's got plenty of | pins, it's already mass-manufactured, and outside of only a | single product Apple sells, there's not much competition | aside from legacy stuff that can't handle a lot of today's | data, form factor and power delivery needs. | reaperducer wrote: | _When in history has interoperability not been a catalyst | for innovation?_ | | Most of it, including most of the history of computers. | | Competition almost always breeds innovation. It's basic | economics, and why people get upset by monopolies and | such. | Ekaros wrote: | PC and x86 took us pretty far... And that was mostly | carried on interoperability... I doubt we would have gotten | to technology being as ubiquitous as it is without it. | GuB-42 wrote: | Also, the internet itself. | nickpp wrote: | Funny enough, France's failed internet, the Minitel would | probably be the solution pushed today by the EU. | | The Internet won on the free market, through its own | merits. No politician intervention necessary. Even if | plenty tried to capture the glory (information | superhighway...) | goto11 wrote: | You think AOL had more innovation than the web? | lanstin wrote: | AOL used SMTP and NFS and TCP/IP and many many other open | protocol interop things. It wasn't great at sharing back, | I am afraid, but it wouldn't have been able to be what it | was without the internet protocols and many other open | things (network socket programming, DLPI, heck sendmail, | SSL, HTTP compression). AOL is a prime example of how a | solid infrastructure enables new businesses (but those | businesses might not stick with the partner that brought | them). | worik wrote: | How do you mean? | | Would Raspberry Pi have happened without Linux? | | What about the evolution of data centres? | | I am sure that there are examples from closed systems, but | it is not clear that keeping secrets and strict | intellectual property spur innovation | nocoolnametom wrote: | In order to talk to my friends, family, and coworkers I | need to have the following apps installed and running: | Slack, Teams, Telegram, Signal, WhatsApp, Google | Chat/Hangouts/Allo/Whatever, FB Messenger, Discord, | Twitter, etc. | | It'd take a pretty strong argument to convince me that this | is so much more productive and allows for more innovation | than the old days when the spec for things like Email, | HTTP, IRC, XMPP allowed for a plethora of different tools | unrelated to the company sponsoring the tech and people | figured out how to make money USING the interoperable tech | instead of OWNING the tech. | mlok wrote: | I really hope Matrix bridges will help bring back some | sanity on this front. | sitzkrieg wrote: | the performance is too bad | Gigachad wrote: | The bridges are not horrible. But they aren't super | reliable. I have seen them go down for a few days once, | generally be a bit slow, forward messages out of order, | etc. | | The free matrix.org server is also overloaded. The paid | server is much faster. | zaik wrote: | Still, bridges do not really solve fragmentation problems | the same way compliance with internet standards does. | | For example bridges break important features like end-to- | end encryption. | nickpp wrote: | I actually love the choice and the separation. And when | an innovation good enough appears on a platform, it is | quickly copied on the others (reactions...) | rkangel wrote: | I'm using Element One these days | (https://element.io/element-one) which at least gets me | Signal, WhatsApp, Telegram, Matrix and IRC all in one | place. | ciupicri wrote: | I'm willing to bet that your friends and family wouldn't | be happy if the European Union would mandate using IRC | everywhere. Heck, why not go further and stick to the | good old ntalk [1]. | | [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk_(software) | midislack wrote: | Seems like a disingenuous argument, why not make a real | one? | zaik wrote: | What about the XMPP standard? I use it everyday for | messaging family and friends. | | WhatsApp is basically an unfederated XMPP provider. | ciupicri wrote: | I used XMPP around 2003 when it was still called Jabber. | I can't say there's something major wrong with it (only | XML verbosity comes to my head), it's just the idea of | making it mandatory. By the way how come some EU | officials use Zoom? [1] Where are those good open | standards? | | [1]: https://meeteu.eu/events/ | tomp wrote: | Is that why all PC (interoperable) laptops are inferior to | MacBooks? | | Your statement might hold for software but definitely doesn't | hold for hardware. | ajford wrote: | Yours doesn't hold for hardware either. MacBooks are | comparable and competitive to PC laptops, but it's only | your opinion that they are superior. | | Having used a few different models of MacBook over the last | decade for work, and owning a few different models of | Thinkpads over the same timeframe, I'd take the Thinkpad | any day of the week. From the annoyingly either hot or cold | all-metal case to the floating ground problem triggering | shocks when using the fold-out wall connector, MacBooks are | inferior in my book. But that is also only my opinion. | nonethewiser wrote: | > The regulation actually says that cables can no longer be | bundled with the devices themselves, | | Wait, what? That's idiotic | alerighi wrote: | I think this is a stupid thing. Repurposing a commonly used | connector for other things to reuse cheap connectors and cables | is something that is usually done in the electronic industry | (e.g. my oscilloscope use an HDMI socket for the logic analyzer | input, you have plenty of lines and the connector is cheap and | good). It's not uncommon to design a board and use type-C only | for power (5V input, without the circuitry to handle power | delivery, so you must connect a suitable power supply) or for | other things (TTL serial data). | | > Fake USB-C cables like Nintendo's that have the right shape | but do not adhere to spec should gradually disappear along with | lightning cables | | Which spec? There are a multitude of them! What we do, adhere | all to the best spec and to only feed 5V power to a device | (that could be done with 2 wires) require the same cable used | to connect a thunderbolt device at 40Gb/s? Of course not, since | the first one costs a couple of dollars, the second one tens of | dollars, the first one can be as long as voltage drop permits | it to be, the second one needs to be maximum 1 meter, the first | one needs no shielding at all, the second one needs to be | heavily shielded, that not only increases cost but makes it | bulkier. And again, does a data cable that is used for | thunderbolt connection (assuming that the thunderbolt device is | externally powered) be designed to carry the full 5A of the | spec? 5A is a lot of current, it will require bigger | conductors, but for a data cable it doesn't make sense! | | Type-C is a standard that makes to me not a lot of sense: they | wanted to create the one connector that fits all, while in the | past they designed different connector, one for each device, | not because they wanted you to buy more cables but to avoid | confusion in customers, if the cable fits it works I used to | say back in the day, the VGA connector was physically different | from a serial port, the PS2 connector was not the same as a | parallel port, even if they could have done everything with one | port they didn't. | [deleted] | ZekeSulastin wrote: | "The regulation actually says that cables can no longer be | bundled with the devices themselves" | | I don't think anyone's mentioned that. Oh my god, tech social | media is going to melt down when that kicks in if the reaction | to chargers being excluded is any indication (not to mention a | repeat of the shift from 30-pin to Lightning in Apple's case, | except now without a cable). | creativenolo wrote: | I have had usb cables from usb rechargeable bike lights that | leaked into my ever growing bundle of cables. So I'm never | quite sure which USB cable will work with what. I'd never | knowingly buy these crap cables. | enkid wrote: | If it comes with being able to buy a $5 cable to act as a | charge, I don't see how people could complain. (But I know | they will.) | phkahler wrote: | >> If it comes with being able to buy a $5 cable to act as | a charge, I don't see how people could complain. | | Even better, just use the old cable from your old device | since they won't be designing a new one every other year. | kennywinker wrote: | As far as a I know, in the history of smartphones - which | I'd say starts in 2007 with the launch of the iPhone - | there have only really been 4 (or maybe 5) connectors | used on widely sold phones: | | 1. Apple 30pin "iPod" connector | | 2. Apple Lightning connector | | 3. Mini USB (I don't think this ever appeared on anything | but blackberries and cheapo flip phones?) | | 4. Micro USB | | 5. USB-C | | So, while I agree that cable changes are annoying, and I | support standardization efforts, "a new one every other | year" is just not how it's ever been. 5 connectors in 15 | years. The 30pin connector reigned from 2007 to 2012, and | on the android side, micro USB was dominant until around | 2015-2016 when USB-C started showing up on phones. | Realistically, it's been a new connector every ~7 years. | sydd wrote: | Except that the current USB-C situation is a mess, and | this regulation plans to solve this. | | I got a pretty expensive HP monitor for work from my | company that connects via USB-C (and can charge my Mac). | IT has sworn me to not loose its USB-C cable because for | some unknown reasons it refuses to work with other | cables, it costs >$100 and is constantly out of stock. | coolspot wrote: | Oculus Link for example is a USB-C cable that is not | copper, but optical. This allows it to have very high | bandwidth and long length (16ft/5m). | | Hence the price. | dorgo wrote: | Its not only about smartphones. How many different | connectors (just) Thinkpad's had in the same time frame? | shaded-enmity wrote: | No it's not fine, this is just another coercion and | consolidation of power where it shouldn't belong. Independent | entities cannot innovate on their own because now there's a | central apparatus that decides what should be innovated and | how, with all the inherent political power struggles of big | players, good luck. | | EU should be there to set goals, not to dictate implementation. | tediousdemise wrote: | It's kind of sad to me that Apple doesn't make Lightning an | open standard. | | In all my years, I haven't had a single Lightning connector | fail on me. The solid metal where the contacts reside is just | too robust to wear out or get damaged (unless you somehow step | on it the right way or let it corrode). | | USB-C connectors, on the other hand, seems to loosen after a | rather small number mates and de-mates, leading people to use | preemptive workarounds such as magnetic connectors. | baq wrote: | The cables though... they used to be a joke. I've wrapped | mine with electrical tape near ends so they last longer. | tediousdemise wrote: | Definitely, those Apple-supplied cables suck hard. Adding | little tension relief springs[0] to the ends can protect | them if you don't want to buy another (or more robust) | cable and create more e-waste. You can find the springs in | clicky pens. | | [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCIo8xGTUX0 | WanderPanda wrote: | The Apple supplied cables seem to be quite | environmentally friendly already since they literally rot | at the ends. Not only lightning but also the MagSafe | ones. The Lightning connector itself mechanically is the | best connector I've ever encountered, though. Pure | satisfaction when plugging it in, even after 5 years or | so | Larrikin wrote: | I think at some point they changed the material. | | I had never had a single cord fray on me except every | single Apple supplied white cord for years, until suddenly | I no longer had that problem. Don't know what changed but | glad it did | spockz wrote: | Interesting. The only lighting cable that has failed me | so far is the usbC to lightning cable that came with my | 13 Pro. All other cables are still in use. Including some | cheap ones that get abused being jostled in my backpack. | atoav wrote: | I connect disconnect the same USB-C connector minimum 8 times | a day for 4 years now. I have yet to have any issue with it. | USB micro B connectors that got the same treatment repeatedly | failed. | | The USB C jacks I have seen on PCBs so far seem all to look | pretty solid to me, although I am convinced you can also get | cheap ones that will just happily fail if you just tried. | Getting cheap Lightning connectors will be a lot harder, for | obvious reasons. | | So if we do the comparison between Apple and something else, | let's not fall into the old trap of comparing an 1000EUR ios | device to an 100EUR android device and declaring android to | be unusable. | Gigachad wrote: | I think it's more of a quality thing. Apple makes great usb c | cables as well which seem to last forever. While the cheap | eBay crap wears out quickly. | dfox wrote: | I assume that the reason for not making Lightning an open | standard is that the thing on the technical level is really | tightly coupled to iOS. On electrical level it is mostly an | "two-lane" HS USB. USB-Lightning cable is basically wires, | but other kinds of Lightning peripherals use weird protocols | that are highly XNU/Darwin/iOS specific, mostly because that | was the simpler implementation (looking at how things like | AirPlay/CarPlay works show that Apple does not intentionally | produce proprietary interfaces, but they use open standards | as long as there are open standards and just invent the | simplest thing when there is no applicable standard). | throw0101a wrote: | > _In all my years, I haven 't had a single Lightning | connector fail on me. The solid metal where the contacts | reside is just too robust to wear out or get damaged (unless | you somehow step on it the right way or let it corrode)._ | | I'm on my second phone where the Lightning connector barely | works anymore. 'Thankfully' this one support Qi so I can | charge wireless, but if I want to do a wired backup or | upgrade I have to jiggle the cable like mad to get any kind | of connection. | | YMMV. | lattalayta wrote: | If you haven't, you might want to try carefully "cleaning | out" the lightning port with a toothpick or other small | tool. I've seen multiple iPhones collect enough lint and | dust in the lightning port over the years to make the | connection still work sometimes but be unreliable until you | clean it out | | https://www.tomsguide.com/how-to/how-to-clean-iphone- | chargin... | eastbound wrote: | No, the tooth with the power loses its gold or silver. | It's not dirty, it's an electrical exchange of atoms. A | design problem. | pawelos wrote: | Try cleaning the connector, when my lighting connectors | started to fail, it was always caused by a ton of dust that | I removed with a needle. | foepys wrote: | Please use something wooden or plastic. A non-metal | toothpick is perfect. | | I've successfully cleaned multiple USB-C ports using a | toothpick. | r00fus wrote: | I just had a Lighting port fail on me (partial thankfully - | there's one single cable in my house that still works to | charge the thing) - but it's a 2014 device, a good 7-8 | years old. | cromka wrote: | I've had two iPhones serviced (replaced) due to lightning | port failure. I also had few cables replaced due to them | getting the surface on the contact pins literally burned by | the micro-fires caused by the high-current and the fibre | residue of the fabric. | | So, yours is just as anecdotal as mine. Would actually have | to see some numbers comparing Lightning vs USB-C failure rate | (on some premium Android smartphones), which we are unlikely | to. | robonerd wrote: | I don't see why _" What about innovation?"_ is taken seriously | as an argument anyway. USB-C is more than adequate, we could | coast with it for the next hundred years. Nobody is kept up at | night by the lack of innovation in AC power plugs, the | standards countries have settled on today, while not all | equivalent, are all generally satisfactory in practice. Problem | solved; stop fixing that which ain't broke and move on to other | matters. | | Yeah yeah, "640k should be enough for everybody". There comes a | point where that is actually true. | biztos wrote: | > the lack of innovation in AC power plugs | | Having lived in a country (Thailand) where both Euro and US | plugs work just fine as long as you mind your voltage, I have | become quite annoyed at that lack of innovation. | bloppe wrote: | To be totally fair, it's not like a phone manufacturer is | going to put 2 different ports on their device, so this is | essentially regulating data as well as power. But also to be | fair, USB-C cables that support thunderbolt 3 are a couple | orders of magnitude faster (throughput) than Apple's | lightning cables (40 Gbps vs ~480 Mbps), and if Apple could | possibly support such speeds without releasing a new | backwards-incompatible cable, they would have done so long | ago. | | If Apple ever wanted to support faster than 40 Gbps, they | would have to do so in concert with the rest of the tech | industry and release it as an open standard. I'd like to hear | somebody try to argue this is a bad thing. | solarkraft wrote: | > Nobody is kept up at night by the lack of innovation in AC | power plugs | | Mandatory Tom Scott video about bri'ish power plugs: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEfP1OKKz_Q | | :-) | tephra wrote: | When they started this in 2009 they did want to make micro | usb the thing everybody was forced to use. | | It's only by luck that it took enough time to not get stuck | on that... | tester756 wrote: | >Gates himself has strenuously denied making the comment. In | a newspaper column that he wrote in the mid-1990s, Gates | responded to a student's question about the quote: "I've said | some stupid things and some wrong things, but not that. No | one involved in computers would ever say that a certain | amount of memory is enough for all time." Later in the | column, he added, "I keep bumping into that silly quotation | attributed to me that says 640K of memory is enough. There's | never a citation; the quotation just floats like a rumor, | repeated again and again." | paulmd wrote: | > I don't see why "What about innovation?" is taken seriously | as an argument anyway. | | because the USB-IF historically has struggled to reach enough | consensus from its stakeholders to allow innovation to take | place. The entire reason that lightning exists in the first | place is because USB-IF couldn't agree on a replacement for | micro-B (which everyone agreed clearly needed improvement!) | and one of the members just had to shrug and go do it | themselves. Once one of the members had gone there and proven | the concept, it lit a fire under the asses of the rest of the | consortium. | | Same for why thunderbolt exists as a standard and not as USB | 4 in the first place... not enough consensus to go there as | an official standard rather than an extension. It took what, | 10 years after Thunderbolt was standardized before we finally | pulled ourselves out of the fecal lagoon of USB 3.x | standards? | | And then you layer in the dysfunction from the members that | are primarily interested in _creating_ consumer confusion | with the USB 3.0, USB3.1 Type-1, USB 3.1 Type-2, USB 3.2 | Type-1, USB 3.2 Type-2, USB 3.2 Type-2x2 nonsense so that | they can deceptively and maliciously sell yesterday 's | hardware with tomorrow's standard on the box... many of the | members of USB-IF are interested in _actively stalling | progress_ if it means they save 30 cents on their BOM. | | This is not an organization with consumer interests at heart. | They are a bad choice to be the legal guardian (more like, | conservator) of all innovation. | tomp wrote: | This argument would sound less hollow if there weren't _two_ | existing superior (from a user experience perspective) | alternatives _already_ on the market. | | Apple's Lightning (thinner than USB-C) and MagSafe (safer | than USB-C for charging laptops... so glad Apple is | transitioning back to it for M2 Airs) | thaway2839 wrote: | Lightning cables don't last. They are a complete disaster. | And that's not even considering how a little bit of dust | can prevent your device from charging at all, and lightning | ports are a complete dust magnet. | | But the best argument against "what about lightning?" is | the fact that Apple themselves don't use it on their higher | powered devices like macs, and use USB-C instead. | stephc_int13 wrote: | I used both Lightning and USB-C cables, I had two Lightning | cables dying from oxidation (not misuse in water or | anything, normal use) and not a single USB-C problem so | far. | | Calling Lightning superior is blatant Apple fanboyism. | snotrockets wrote: | Lightning isn't as fast as USB 3.0 (which USB C cables | should support), and can't supply as much power as USB-PD | (which, again, works over USB C cables) | fiddlerwoaroof wrote: | MagSafe-style charging connectors are an innovation that, | IMO, justifies breaking compatibility. I dislike this forced | standardization on USB-C because USB-3/USB-C is a user- | hostile nightmare standard. | leadingthenet wrote: | > Let's say the USB consortium releases USB-D with input from | Apple, Google, and many other stakeholders [...] | | If you have to make such an argument, you've already lost. | | Innovation, particularly disruptive and / or breakthrough | innovation, does not happen by committee, no matter how many | times over history people tried deluding themselves into | thinking that it does. | | So no, it's not fine. | 10x-dev wrote: | I'm ok if my life doesn't get disrupted every 2 years with a | new type of incompatible connection between my devices. | | Maybe we could put all that innovation and consumer | inconvenience into resolving climate change. | nickpp wrote: | Maybe we could've put all that regulatory effort and | politician time into resolving not even climate change, but | just EU's dependence on cheap Russian fossil fuels. | Ekaros wrote: | Ah what lovely place our technological lives would be without | standards, that are done by committees... No standardised | wireless technologies like Bluetooth, WiFi, 1G, 2G, 3G, 4G, | 5G... Each and every provider and technology manufacturer | running their own incompatible networks... Hey, maybe throw | away IP and TCP too... Let each site run on their own | proprietary protocol... | nwienert wrote: | Those protocols were developed without government mandate. | TedDoesntTalk wrote: | And so will USB-D | dfox wrote: | ETSI (which is the parent organization of 3GPP) is | technically an independent non-profit NGO, but in reality | it is part of EU bureaucracy and was chartered by EC. | tankenmate wrote: | The directive is designed to make things easier for customers | and the environment, not OEMs per se (even though there will | be benefits for a number of companies). | Bayart wrote: | Standards happen by committee. They're not disruptive and | _that 's the point_. | afpx wrote: | Standards bodies work like other technical teams. They | actually produce useful output if they're fed sufficient | requirements and stakeholder input. | earthboundkid wrote: | > Innovation, particularly disruptive and / or breakthrough | innovation, does not happen by committee | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD#History | | Never make an absolutist statement. They're always wrong. :-) | ithkuil wrote: | > They're always wrong | | Lol. An interesting version of the liars paradox. | notJim wrote: | It's very strange to read this comment on article about USB, | which has been developed by committee from the beginning. To | me it seems quite innovative, and arguably disruptive to have | a single standard for all these things. Maybe USB doesn't | clear your personal bar, but then why worry about this at | all? | dfox wrote: | From time to time Intel's marketing tries to sell the idea | that USB was invented by this one Intel engineer. Somewhat | obviously that is not true. | | On the other hand if you compare USB 1.0 to 1.1 it is quite | obvious that real implementation experience and throwing | out artifacts of the design by committee was quite | important for the success. | bsder wrote: | > Somewhat obviously that is not true. | | Especially since I know that several people at Digital | Equipment Corporation had to do the signal integrity | analysis for Intel for the original USB standard. | warning26 wrote: | _> On the other hand if you compare USB 1.0 to 1.1 it is | quite obvious that real implementation experience and | throwing out artifacts of the design by committee was | quite important for the success._ | | This sounds like it has some interesting history there; | do you have any recommended sources to read about the | transition between USB 1.0 and 1.1? | ghaff wrote: | I was going to disagree as I used to know one the | standards people at Intel quite well (who always | regretted that USB was orientation specific)--and I | didn't remember anything like that. But you're right. | Intel was pushing Ajay Bhatt was one of the people Intel | highlighted as a face behind Intel's technology. | (Although the campaign wasn't specific to USB.) https://w | ww.oregonlive.com/business/2009/05/intel_ad_campaig... | hwbehrens wrote: | I can't be sure, but my interpretation of the parent's | comment is that the USB-IF would never have thought to work | on USB-C at all until Lightning's release two years | earlier. The whole forehead-slapping moment of cables that | didn't need to be flipped was a pretty big divergence from | the USB-A, -B, mini B, micro B, etc. that has prevailed | previously. The kernel of the argument being, Apple's | "innovation" by rejecting the status quo is what allowed | for the (eventual) development of the USB-C standard. | | This is actually fairly common in Apple-land, now that I | look: | | - ADB (1986) to PS2 (1987) to USB-A (1996) for HID | | - Firewire (1995) to USB 2.0 (2000) to Firewire 800 (2002) | to USB 3.0 (2008) for data transfer | | - VGA (1987) to ADC (1998) to DVI (1999) for video | | A lot of the connectors they proposed are now lost to the | mists of time, but I can at least understand the argument | that some of these changes were plausibly driven by Apple's | rejection of the then-standard in favor of some new benefit | (faster speeds, better UX), which lasted only until a new | standard was developed to incorporate that benefit, and the | process repeats again. | paulmd wrote: | > my interpretation of the parent's comment is that the | USB-IF would never have thought to work on USB-C at all | until Lightning's release two years earlier | | it's actually worse than that, there was _extensive_ | discussion of what to do next since micro-B was still | obviously flawed, they just _couldn 't reach a consensus | to take any action even after years of debate_. | | the thing to remember is that USB-IF isn't a benevolent | organization of technology companies working together to | set a direction for the future - many of them are | primarily interested in reducing their own costs, which | is why we got the "USB 3.x Gen 2x2 Wave 2: USB Harder" | crap. Many of the players at USB-IF are _specifically | interested in stalling progress_ as long as it saves them | 30 cents on their BOM. | Daishiman wrote: | > Innovation, particularly disruptive and / or breakthrough | innovation, does not happen by committee, no matter how many | times over history people tried deluding themselves into | thinking that it does. | | You have no evidence to back this up. There's been throughout | history many innovative standards that have gone through | committee work, including a ton of network protocols. | akira2501 wrote: | > Innovation, particularly disruptive and / or breakthrough | innovation | | We are talking about power cables here. Are you anticipating | something major in this space? Is it reasonable to do so? | leadingthenet wrote: | Disruptive technology cannot be anticipated. It's | tautological. | Panoramix wrote: | It can be disproved within reason. The only new thing a | magic new cable would bring to the table is more power, | which is not practical to have. | | The big innovation I'd love to have? Having only ONE | charger for all my devices, forever. That absolutely | destroys any "innovation" Apple or whoever can bring to | the table. | bushbaba wrote: | Well, innovation does shift to circumventing the regulation. | Such-as removal of the charging port all together, and moving | to magsafe-qi charging | https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MHXH3AM/A/magsafe-charger | layer8 wrote: | ...which wastes energy and reduces battery life. Great | innovation. | paulmd wrote: | it's always interesting to me that people ignore the | ecological impact of cables. If you break four cables | over the life of the phone from plugging/unplugging, and | that results in 2 or 3 additional Amazon Prime trips to | deliver your cables, how does that compare in terms of | environmental impact to wasting 5 additional watts for | the 1 hour a day you charge your phone? | | (and don't tell me _everybody_ uses Amazon Prime day | shipping... people just order new cables when they break. | And sure, you can have one common pool of all your | cables... sort of! except for the part where cable X or | charger X doesn 't fast-charge device Y, so you actually | need several pools of chargers and cables...) | Barrin92 wrote: | who needs breakthrough innovation for a charger? It's like | the C++ programming language, I just want it to work | everywhere. Programming languages have been designed by | committee just fine. | usr1106 wrote: | That's a weird argument. What would you say if EU demanded | us to stop programming in Python, Rust, bash and mandate | that only C++ must used? | | No, I have no problem with the USB-C mandate. But the | analogy seems weird. | Barrin92 wrote: | >What would you say if EU demanded us to stop programming | in Python, Rust, bash and mandate that only C++ must | used? | | I support the idea that regulatory bodies like the EU | create stronger software standards in safety critical | applications in particular so that software 'engineering' | actually starts to deserve that label so I have no | problem with a good faith version of that take. | midasuni wrote: | Ok. Go back 5 years and standardise on the ubiquitous usb- | mini -- usb-a solution. | | Why does my next phone need a charger? I'd be happy with | wireless charging -- especially if I have a 3.5mm socket in | the phone too. | kaibee wrote: | It would have been bad to standardize on USB-B and it | will be good to standardize on USB-C. These aren't | mutually exclusive statements. | joadha wrote: | Would you mind clarifying your argument? How would you define | "breakthrough innovation"? I think that's critical to my | understanding of your point. | peheje wrote: | Not OP. But a breakthrough innovation in charging could be | a new battery-technology holding charge for much longer but | required different charging specifications offered by | USB-C. Such a breakthrough would hopefully get enough | attention from EU to get the law updated. Or they might | want the devices to still have USB-C? Who knows who's in | charge then. | | Also missing from this discussion is the fact that even if | the law is only about charging it will define he go-to | data-connection for smaller devices for a long time, where | an additional port will be dimensionally challenging, more | costly to add as well as difficult to make water-resistant. | | I am sympathetic for reducing e-waste, but I'm unsure where | this will lead us. Crypto-mining is also bad for the | environment but might hold unknown positive possibilities | if explored properly (maybe reduce bureaucracy, avoid | monopolies) that could be extinguished by a premature ban. | | I am already paying some of the highest taxes on consumer | products compared to other countries in the world, I would | rather pay even more for a charger, phone etc., remember an | adapter when out and about and keep the freedom of choosing | which technologies to support. | | *Also just wanted to add that even if OP mentioned the | committee, I'm unsure how much you can compare that to EU | making laws enforceable in 27 countries. | antisthenes wrote: | Proprietary connectors are about as far from innovation as | you can possibly get, unless you count patent moats and | corporate grift as part of innovating. | bloppe wrote: | > Innovation ... does not happen by committee. | | If you have to make such an argument... Good luck with that. | This one in particular has many existing counterexamples, | including USB-C itself. | whiskey14 wrote: | I guess a lot of the other replies here are saying the same | thing. | | Innovation is first. Standardisation is second. | | That way, more people can make use of and innovate further on | the original idea. | maccard wrote: | I was one of the Nintendo switch commenters in this thread - | the problem I have is standardising on the connector without | enforcing the underlying standards. This doesn't fix the | charging problem or the cable problem, it just means that the | all devices fit together, even if they don't actually deliver | what they're supposed to. | IvanK_net wrote: | I wish EU standardizes a single electric socket for all EU | countries. Germany, France, Switzerland and Italy - each has a | different socket (although German and French are very similar to | each other). | | More here: | https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/EuropePlugsSockets.html | fy20 wrote: | CEE 7/7 plugs will fit into all sockets in the EU, except Italy | (where they can be bent slightly to fit), Malta and Ireland. | The only issue is grounding, but things like phone chargers | wouldn't be grounded anyway. | causi wrote: | I wish USB-C was more robust, or at least had the option of being | more robust. I miss not being scared of accidentally stepping on | my laptop charge connector and crushing it flat. I'd pay good | money for a type-C un-flattener. | danaris wrote: | Is there a halfway-modern port that _is_ more robust? Hell, is | it _possible_ to make a port /adapter that you can't destroy by | stepping on it? | | I've personally destroyed VGA, PS/2, and ADB adapters by | stepping on them in the past. (I've since gotten somewhat more | careful, and haven't yet destroyed any USB or Lightning | adapters the same way.) | | How, exactly, do you propose that they design a port that you | can't accidentally crush, aside from something dirt-simple like | an 8mm headphone jack...? | rbanffy wrote: | > is it possible to make a port/adapter that you can't | destroy by stepping on it? | | UK power plugs want a word with you. Not that there won't be | damage, but it's your foot that will be completely destroyed. | danaris wrote: | A hit, a palpable hit! | | Yeah, those things are tanks. | rbanffy wrote: | Sadly, our feet are no match for them. | vanattab wrote: | Yeah. Type c is worse then micro or mini in this regard but | still no where as bad as type A. I can't tell you how many USB | cables I have thrown away because office chairs have run over | the ends. | causi wrote: | The only advantage with type A is that it's large enough you | can use a set of flat pliers to straighten it out. Type-C is | nearly impossible to do that with. | bencollier49 wrote: | This was already done once for micro-USB 12 years ago: | | https://www.wired.com/2010/08/europe-univeral-phone-charger/ | PinguTS wrote: | Everybody who is frenetically celebrating this as the end of the | manufacturer-specific power brick, does simply not know that | USB-C is not USB-C. There is no single USB-C. | | USB-C is a bunch of specifications that may can be combined or | may not. USB-C is only the physical connector. USB-C PD (Power | delivery) does support many different modes. There are at least | 11 different modes with at least 4 of them are optional. I | haven't read the latest version of the specification, but I would | bet that there are optionally also some implementation-specific | options aka manufacturer-specific. All that combined with the | many different cable definitions for the different use cases, | makes it for the average consumer a nightmare. | plonk wrote: | I've never seen a USB-C cable that didn't charge all my devices | with all my chargers. OK, maybe one that came with an HP screen | and was clearly labeled as "data only". | | I think this will make cables interchangeable in most cases. | Fast charging and fast transfers are nice to have but rarely | vital. | PinguTS wrote: | You haven't brought any of those cheap Chinese cables, | haven't you? | | I have such cables, which can't be really used for charging | as well as for fast data transfer. They are good for my | development hardware kits, I have. Because those kits don't | have any high power requirements. But I cannot use them to | power my notebook. | rbanffy wrote: | > You haven't brought any of those cheap Chinese cables, | haven't you? | | Do you expect them to follow standards while being | impossibly cheap to pay for the licensing of said | standards? | PinguTS wrote: | What you expect will average Joe buy at Amazon? What will | be the key of comparing one cable with another? | rbanffy wrote: | Why would Amazon be selling non-compliant cables? | Wouldn't that kind of be against the law? | danieldk wrote: | Well, with Amazon's co-mingling, you can't be sure that | even brand cables are authentic. | rbanffy wrote: | That's not a problem a standard can solve. | plonk wrote: | I buy best-selling cable packs costing a few euros per unit | on Amazon. They charge and connect anything I own that has | a USB-C plug. | danieldk wrote: | But they may be very suboptimal. Most likely, they are | not Thunderbolt or USB4 capable. Also, there is no | guarantee that they can supply higher wattages. | plonk wrote: | I don't think this matters as much as some on HN think. | People look for an iPhone charger, not for a USB4.0 Gen2 | 40W fast-charging cable and assorted wall plug that will | transfer their movie collection in 2 minutes and charge | to 100% in 5. | schleck8 wrote: | > makes it for the average consumer a nightmare. | | No, it doesn't. Almost all my devices (macbook, camera, | speaker, phone, headphones...) use usb c pd and I am using the | same three cables interchangeably for all of them, no issues. | | If Apple choses to intentionally break this compatibility it's | a user hostile company. | PinguTS wrote: | If everything is so cool, so why is this Google engineer | reviewing USB-C cables? | https://www.theverge.com/2015/11/5/9674462/usb-type-c- | google... | hocuspocus wrote: | We aren't in 2015 anymore. | schleck8 wrote: | Because this was in 2015 and the cables were bad? There is | many low quality lightning ripoffs on Alibaba too | privacyking wrote: | That same engineer also said the following | | All passive USB-C cables support PD 2.0 or 3.0, all | charging features. The only things a cable needs to need to | support PD are: | | Vbus wire Gnd wire CC wire Therefore, all USB cables, even | the lowest end USB 2.0 cable support USB PD. You don't need | an identifier chip to support basic USB PD charging. | | Literally it's just the CC wire that goes end to end that | enables USB PD charging from one end to the other. | | USB PD is supposed to be backward and forward compatible, | and a USB 2.0 cable can't actually differentiate itself as | a USB PD 2.0 or PD 3.0 cable, since chances are it doesn't | actually have an identifier chip. Your basic cable (which | the Anker is) should work all the way up to 60W with PPS. | | PPS also doesn't matter. A USB 2.0 C-to-C cable is supposed | to support PPS. | | ----- In other words as long as you have any proper usb c | cable (spec compliant) and a usb c Pd charger with | sufficient power output, everything will work. | samatman wrote: | [deleted] | markstos wrote: | The USB-C spec has 24 pins, making it considerably more complex | than USB-A connections, which 4 pins. Only 4 of those 24 pins are | used for power delivery. | | If all you need from the USB-C connection is charging, is OK to | implement a 4 pin connection to keep the design simpler and | cheaper? | mmis1000 wrote: | I think you also need the CC pin or you aren't going to have PD | fast charging. The pin is required to handshake a higher | Voltage and Current outside of standard 5C1A. | | And that literally exists. Most charge wire don't have full 24 | line. (Unless it is specifically marked as USB3 compatible) | jl6 wrote: | I want to like this, but I charge my iPhone with a cable that has | lightning on one end and USB-C on the other, and I know from | extensive direct experience that the lightning end is the better | physical design. | | Supporting this is tantamount to believing that there will never | need to be a USB-D that improves upon USB-C, and I just can't | believe that. | torginus wrote: | The problem with lightning is that the springs that fix the | plug in place are on the port, not the cable. | | This is the part that wears out, and when it does, the port | will need to be replaced, not the cable. | vladvasiliu wrote: | How often does this happen in practice, though? | | My 6 year-old iPhone that I plug and unplug a bunch of times | a day still keeps the plugs in very snuggly. They basically | don't move. And I've pulled on the connector many, many | times, by stepping on the cord and pulling the phone up. | | Contrast this with my 2 month-old laptop in which the usb-c | cables move around, even though it spends 90% on the time | plugged in. | | --- | | Edit: I did have connection issues at one point, but it was | due to pocket lint that had accumulated inside the port. It | was easily removable with a toothpick, and the connector went | back to working like new. | dundarious wrote: | I had the same issue with the same toothpick solution, then | 1 year later the spring really did fail and I essentially | had to buy a new phone. | plonk wrote: | > I know from extensive direct experience that the lightning | end is the better physical design. | | What's so great about it? USB-C is just as easy to plug in and | these cables usually last longer. The only difference for me is | that Lightning eventually ends up with black pins and I have to | buy another cable. | | Also, is it really worth the few technical advantages if the | alternative is a good-enough plug that works with absolutely | everything? | schleck8 wrote: | To counter, I've had around five lightning cables and 10 usb c | cables and not once has a usb c cables failed me. It does not | accumulate dust. | mmis1000 wrote: | Same, I used about 10 type c wire. The only two wire I used | that failed so far are caused by | | 1. I stepped on it. 2. The junction between wire and head | broken. | | I have more that probably 5 micro b wire failed on the head | since I use cellphone. But for type c, it's literally 0. | glogla wrote: | The previous standard was Micro-USB (that's why you still see | it on dashcams, standalone GPSes, drawing tablets and other | devices) and yet, USB-C came to exist. | kalleboo wrote: | If there's a better standard in the future the law can be | changed, they didn't put this in the constitution. | | I've never had a phone with USB-C to compare, but I've had | rotten luck with Lightning. I always get that one power pin | that blackens and makes the cable unreliable. | taylodl wrote: | Yeah, me too. Or even though the cable is supposed to be | reversible and yet my phone will only charge if the cable is | inserted one way, but not the other. I've had that happen a | lot too! | | I'm just glad USB-C has come along so we didn't do something | foolish like standardize on Micro USB - I _hate_ those ports! | I recently bought two brand-new BT speakers and guess how | they 're charged? Micro USB! Grrrrrrr!!! | vineyardmike wrote: | > If there's a better standard in the future the law can be | changed, they didn't put this in the constitution. | | Who will build the spec and research and then lobby Europe to | change the law when no device uses it? The marketing of | saying "this new spec is better... throw out EVERYTHING" | won't happen. | | What will happen is that the hot mess of a market that is the | Asian market will grow and change and develop... and throw | out cables. And it'll get better over time while the | availability in Europe stagnates. | | PS you can clean the blackened pin so it works again. | | https://www.zdnet.com/article/heres-why-your-iphone- | lightnin... | LordDragonfang wrote: | >Who will build the spec and research and then lobby Europe | to change the law when no device uses it? The marketing of | saying "this new spec is better... throw out EVERYTHING" | won't happen. | | Except that's basically what happened with USB-C. Micro-B | was the standard for the EU, USB-C was developed and got | approved, and now it's replacing micro-b as the standard. | Game_Ender wrote: | USB-C was developed partly because lightning should how | much better a reversible multipurpose cable could be. The | argument is that without the ability for one player to | innovate with a new port we not have the same quality of | USB-C port we have now. | matwood wrote: | > the law can be changed | | Basically there will never be a usb-d. | kalleboo wrote: | The only way I see there being a need to evolve from USB-C | is if we see some major developments in optical (cost/size) | | The EU seems perfectly willing to adopt new standards if | you look at what has been happening in mobile standards | (e.g. despite 3G being standardized we got 4G, despite 4G | being standardized we got 5G) | colejohnson66 wrote: | 3G/4G/5G isn't a good example. Standards evolve, but the | issue many people have is that this isn't a standard, but | a _mandate_ to use said standard. So people are concerned | that the USB Consortium will come up with a USB-D, but | new devices won 't be able to use it until the EU updates | their law. | izacus wrote: | There's already Thunderbolt 4. And the requirement will | expire in 2030. It's fine, stop with the drama. | bigDinosaur wrote: | It's probably worth noting that iPads and Macbooks charge with | USB-C, and that seems generally fine. | AndrewDucker wrote: | From | https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/QANDA_... | | Any technological developments in wired charging can be | reflected in a timely adjustment of technical requirements/ | specific standards under the Radio Equipment Directive. This | would ensure that the technology used is not outdated. | | At the same time, the implementation of any new standards in | further revisions of Radio Equipment Directive would need to be | developed in a harmonised manner, respecting the objectives of | full interoperability. Industry is therefore expected to | continue the work already undertaken on the standardised | interface, led by the USB-IF organisation, in view of | developing new interoperable, open and non-controversial | solutions. | whiddershins wrote: | "How quickly the world owes you something you only found out | existed 5 minutes ago." | cannabis_sam wrote: | I would gladly pay extra to get lighting and magsafe connectors | on my devices, but I guess that this stupid legislation will | force me to use the substandard usb connectors. | marban wrote: | Given that it took more than a decade, I'm just glad they didn't | go with FireWire 400. | cmckn wrote: | I kind of understand this from an e-waste angle, but why (as a | consumer) do I care if different phones use the same cable? I | only have one phone. Even if I get a new phone every year, unless | I'm switching back and forth between iPhones and Androids, I'm | not having to buy new cables. If I go to a public place, and need | to plug my phone in, I can already do that regardless of the | connector on the phone end. If a friend is over and they need a | phone charger, there's only two possible needs, and I've already | filled them. Apple charges license fees on Lightning, but I can | already buy a nice third party cable for like $10. | | Why is this so important as to require a large scale device maker | to redesign their entire product line, and make millions of | existing cables obsolete? Genuinely interested in the reasoning | behind this, what problems is it solving? | cycrutchfield wrote: | Because it makes officious bureaucrats feel good and justifies | their existence. | delecti wrote: | Agreed. I could probably be fairly called an Apple critic on | most things, but I don't think Lightning is a problem in need | of solving. It was great all phones migrated to USB on the | brick, but the other end of the cable is less important as long | as there are such a small number. | kingrazor wrote: | I also wonder about this. Every device I've ever bought that | needs either a charger or an AC adapter has come with its own | power/charging cable. I've never had the desire for them to all | have the same connector. I just keep the charger with the | device. When I buy a new device, I expect it to come with the | cable necessary to power or charge it. | pkulak wrote: | Do you own a tablet and a laptop, by chance? Maybe have 3 other | family members, each with some combination of said three | devices? That can quickly become a lot of household chargers if | they are all different. | Aerroon wrote: | But the problem will still be exactly the same, because not | all USB-C cables are created equal. | | We've basically set in stone a standard that is so varied | that the standardization means nothing. And that's before you | get into any component actually wearing out and giving you | degraded performance on the device or cable. | pkulak wrote: | That hasn't been my experience. I have a bunch of 30w USB-C | chargers that charge everything in my house. They are built | in to my wall outlets and support (at least) 5v, 9v and | 15v. I don't know where you're getting this idea that the | standard is "so varied that the standardization means | nothing". Those three profiles are enough for me. If I buy | a 100W laptop, I may need one more charger, but that's just | because I chose not to pay to have 100W available | everywhere. It seems reasonable that a tiny phone charger | won't work so great on a gaming laptop. | | EDIT: Guess I'm not allowed to reply to sagarm? That's | annoying. But yeah, it's the Leviton one. I love it. Cleans | up so many ugly wall warts. | sagarm wrote: | Which USB wall outlets are you using? The only one I've | found that supports PD and 30W is from Leviton. | sagarm wrote: | Practically it's not. We have probably a dozen USB-C | devices in our home and many more chargers of varying | wattage scattered about, and the only time I've had to | think about the cable was for my TB3 dock. In fact, I worry | more about cable lengths to minimize clutter. | mort96 wrote: | But you can get an USB-C power supply and cable which can | charge all of your USB-C devices. | cmckn wrote: | As others have pointed out, even if all these devices have a | USB-C hole on them, the likelihood that you could actually | use their charger with another device (especially of a | different class) is at best a coin toss. | | The devices still have to ship with chargers, you still have | to find the "right" charger, but now you can't tell them | apart? | | My main thought is just that the problem of different | chargers is not one I think requires sweeping regulatory | intervention; but I'm not an EU voter. :) | Zababa wrote: | > the likelihood that you could actually use their charger | with another device (especially of a different class) is at | best a coin toss. | | I've been able to use all my USB-C chargers for all my | USB-C devices. That's 4 chargers and 4 devices. | colonwqbang wrote: | That's at best twelve coin tosses! | 908B64B197 wrote: | > unless I'm switching back and forth between iPhones and | Androids, I'm not having to buy new cables. | | Even if you did. Lightning's been around since 2012. It | superseded the Dock connector every iPod and iPhone had since | 2003. At this point they are pretty ubiquitous. | | > Apple charges license fees on Lightning | | This also prevents the mess that is USB-C where vendors don't | implement the spec correctly (and brick unsuspecting devices in | the process, see Nintendo). Apple can just refuse to license | devices from vendors that don't implement the spec correctly. | howinteresting wrote: | In a home where almost everyone uses Android (along with | laptops, all of which charge over USBC) and just one person | uses an iPhone, looking for a Lightning cable just for that | one person can be a huge hassle. | superb-owl wrote: | I currently own several USB-C devices (Laptop, phone, Remarkable, | Switch, portable monitor) and I can't tell you how nice it is to | only have to bring a single charger with me when I travel. The | biggest thing holding me back from getting an iPhone is breaking | this pattern. | cromka wrote: | > The biggest thing holding me back from getting an iPhone is | breaking this pattern. | | You wouldn't real this patter with an iPhone: you can still use | the same charger, with Lightning <> USB-C cable. In fact, this | is the official cable you get these days with new models. | saiya-jin wrote: | Yeah but thats another item to worry about, carry around, | constantly or you are royally screwed. Definitely a drawback | for Apple in 2022 if you are like OP or me. | | I was deciding between iphone 13 pro max and samsung s22 | ultra few months back to have best possible camera that is | always in the pocket. For somebody not in their ecosystem | Apple connectors are a massive drawback and one of the | reasons I decided against iphone. | ospzfmbbzr wrote: | I'm all for stopping Apple,Sony, or other nasty megacorps from | including deliberately 'unique' cables that cost a fortune to | replace -- but when the bureaucrats get involved in anything, | particularily technology, it frequently ends up being a disaster. | This is for a few reasons not the least of which is that the | types who are in government are not the types who can make | anything useful let alone novel. Even worse the types who | influence government are also mostly useless except for their | ability to influence government. | lesuorac wrote: | And that's why the EU in 2009 got all the companies to agree to | make a common charger [1]. However, then the companies didn't | so that left the Gov 2 choices: Ignore the idea of a common | charger or force a common charger. | | [1]: https://www.macrumors.com/guide/eu-charging-standard- | proposa... | ryathal wrote: | Every useful technology has some level of Bureaucratic | regulations attached to it. there are very few exceptions and | they don't hurt any sort of growth or innovation. Cars, planes, | electric outlets, the internet, radio, television, railways, | and more are all regulated to some degree. There are as many | examples of regulations driving innovation as there are | limiting it. | alligatorplum wrote: | I am still on the fence on this. On one hand this is a good pro | consumer move while also being environmentally friendly but this | will likely hinder innovation in the field. If a new way charger | standard was found which was a fraction of the cost of USBC and | double the speed, the fact that companies would be forced to | still use USBC is tough. | | I also found this tidbit pretty funny. | | > The legislation has been under development for more than a | decade, but an agreement on its scope was reached this morning | following negotiations between different EU bodies. | | > The EU denies this will be the case, and says it will update | the legislation as new technology is developed. > "Don't think | we're setting something in stone for the next 10 years," said | Breton at the press conference. | Angostura wrote: | Can't Apple ship the phone with a USBC adapter and claim it is | part of the phone? | [deleted] | seydor wrote: | Why would they do that? | Angostura wrote: | To circumvent the impact of the regulations | manuelabeledo wrote: | Wouldn't that be a bad faith interpretation of the directive? | [deleted] | jamil7 wrote: | Wasn't Apple probably going to do this anyway? | rtkwe wrote: | USB-C has been out and stable for years and they haven't so I'm | not certain they're going to drop lightning for their phones | any time soon. It's been a few generations of iPhone since they | went with C on the iPad and I would have expected those to move | together or more closely if they were interested in moving to | USB-C on their phones. | gadders wrote: | I don't have an apple phone, but my daughter does, and I've | always thought that mechanically at least the Apple connector was | better because it had less bits to go wrong. | | USB C, like micro USB has that "tongue" piece that has to fit | inside the end of the cable which always looks like it could snap | off. The Apple connector is just a solid piece that goes in the | end of the phone. No fiddly interlock pieces. | scrumper wrote: | The socket half of the lightning connector is actually pretty | delicate inside: there are little tiny fingers that contact the | strips on the plug. It's quite easy to damage those fingers and | ruin the port when cleaning it out after exposure to dust or | sand. | | Mind you my 7 year old broke the USB C connector on his Switch | in much the same way. There's only so strong you can make | something that small and dense with contacts. | cesarb wrote: | In all the discussions I've seen where people complain about | USB-C, not once have I read about that tab snapping off, so it | does not seem to be a problem in practice. | | The reason USB-C has the tab on the device is to have the | springs, which are the bits which can go wrong the most, on the | cable instead of the device. When they start to become loose, | you only have to replace an inexpensive cable, instead of | having to replace or repair the device. It also better protects | the contacts on both the cable and the device (the contacts on | Apple's lightning cable are exposed). | snorlaxle wrote: | It happened to me once. It was a cheap no-name hub so I don't | really blame type c for it. I also haven't heard it happen to | anyone else and most of my friends and family have an | android. | gadders wrote: | It happened to me on a micro-usb phone, which is probably | what makes me a bit warey of them. | 369548684892826 wrote: | The lightning connection does seem to have interlocking pieces, | but the moving parts are in the socket rather than on the plug. | The plug has grooves on the side to lock into the sprung clips | in the socket. | INTPenis wrote: | It's good, but also worth mentioning that they're just now | proposing to end the subventioned airplane fuel, and in that | proposal they still want an exception for private business | aircraft. Keep the pressure on your EU MEP. | option wrote: | Bureaucrats gonna bureaucrat ... What will happen when a company | (outside EU for obvious reasons) introduces clearly superior | standard? The EU will wait for its bureaucracy to catch up? | dundarious wrote: | There is no benefit to new standards coming out all the time in | this domain. There is major benefit to standardizing for many | years at a time. | hda2 wrote: | The same was once believed in south Korea with regards to | online commerce and ActiveX. Their law left their | infrastructure rigid, less secure, and incompatible with the | rest of the world when everyone moved on. | dundarious wrote: | The USB standard and the processes and groups governing it | are quite unlike those for ActiveX. | kmlx wrote: | > There is no benefit to new standards coming out all the | time in this domain. | | actually, there are huge potential benefits for both the | users and the company that launches them. faster charging, | better ports, smarter cables etc etc etc | qalmakka wrote: | 2024? There's still plenty of time for them to remove the port | altogether and go with just MagSafe/Qi. Which they control, and | they still can get fees from. | | Trust me when I say that Apple will NEVER submit to this | legislation, they will find every sort of obscure or arcane | tricks to comply with it without actually doing it. It would set | a precedent that legislating can change Apple's behaviour, which | they clearly do not want to give. If they show the EU Parliament | it's pointless to go after them, maybe they will not try to | dismantle their monopoly on the App Store, which is clearly the | next thing they will go after this. | pfortuny wrote: | In Europe, and this is well known, companies must comply with | the intent of the law, especially on something related to | customers and compatibility. This is very very different from | the US legal system, which can be tricked "ad nauseam". | | Apple may well do what they please but there will be fines, and | even prohibition of sales. Because the EU "knows" that it can | be done without much burden and "sees" it as a benefit for the | citizens. I agree in this case on both things. | filoleg wrote: | This is a nice fantasy and all, but how did that whole "In | Europe [...] companies must comply with the intent of the | law" work out for GDPR? | | As far as I am aware, all the big tech companies that were | used as the primary reason for creating GDPR are still doing | the exact same things (that people were upset about) they | were doing back then (just in a legally compliant(tm) way now | according to "the intent of the law"). | | Not trying to take a dig at GDPR with this, it definitely | made some tech companies to make some small concessions, like | being able to export your data easier. But it would be | difficult to argue that companies comply with GDPR according | to the intent of the law, and not according to the letter of | the law instead. | lm28469 wrote: | > Qi | | What a complete waste of energy would that be | Hamcha wrote: | If it's going down to a pettiness war, I don't think the | legislators will give up that easily. | | Apple reacting in a petty way not only shows that the | legislators were right on the money (while adapting shows they | were forced, whether for good or bad) but gives them even more | reason to push the buttons further. | | Digital Markets Act is definitely getting more fuel and | attention after Apple's petty response to ACM's complaints in | the Netherlands. [1] | | 1. https://developer.apple.com/support/storekit-external- | entitl... | urgentmessage wrote: | you seem to think that annoying Apple creates welfare for EU | citizens | | But it doesn't. | | Regulators may "win" a battle. But consumers lose big time. | And I don't think bureaucrats should take precedence versus | consumers. | hda2 wrote: | I think GP's point is that you almost never win when you go | against regulators head-on. Ultimately, they're the ones | who have the guns (i.e control imports, exports, and | enforcement). Now that it got to this point, Apple _will_ | yield if it wants to continue profiting off those markets. | | I do agree that legislating technology this way is a big | mistake on EU's part. This is basically South Korea's | ActiveX law all over again, and like South Korea, the EU | will eventually be left behind. | Longhanks wrote: | Apple and Google won when EU countries tried the | centralized covid control tracing, and they both went | "you're not going to get this". Some countries were | furious, yelled they're going to force Apple, that the EU | is going to force Apple, yadda yadda. | | Nothing prevailed. Apple and Google dictated the API and | the EU countries submitted, because they did not have | time to enforce their will. | | It is not Apple's, Google's, or America's fault that the | EU has become so little innovative, rather hostile | towards software developers and entrepreneurs, that they | have no power in the digital world. And for the EU it is | easier to blame american companies, instead of admitting | failure and working towards creating an more enterprise- | friendly hub in Europe. | | I mean, as others have noted, why isn't the EU regulating | the other side of the connector? Why are there 3+ power | plugs in the EU? Shouldn't this be regulated first, if | the EU's argument of reducing electronic waste be | considered? No, those aren't created by american | companies. | | I'm sick of the EU, its constant attempts to circumvent | privacy (such as the current legislation of ending end to | end encryption for chats), while obviously lacking in the | democracy department (why is the comission not elected?). | Panoramix wrote: | Nobody is losing anything over a proprietary crappy | overpriced Apple solution | ohgodplsno wrote: | Then Apple will be fined billions until they yield, just as | every other tech company has tried to do in the EU and failed. | plonk wrote: | They already use USB-C on macs and iPads. The only practical | reason for Lightning to survive is existing iPhone accessories. | It could have been on the way out even before this. Not sure | the fight is worth picking. | qalmakka wrote: | > The only practical reason for Lightning to survive is | existing iPhone accessories | | Do you have any vague idea how much money Apple makes from | Lightning accessories? Every single thing that wants to use | Lightning has to pay an Apple tax, and go through an | incredibly cumbersome and expensive certification process. | Letting that slip away from Apple's control means they lose a | bit of control on their walled garden. | | Meanwhile, MagSafe is also an environment for accessories | they can control, and they can use as a way to extort fees | from accessory developers. Apple has only one goal in mind - | their margins. Everything they do must be seen in function of | that. It's clear Apple is going to remove every single port | from the iPhone, they only have to find how. | iainmerrick wrote: | Why do new Macs and iPads have USB-C, then? | ratww wrote: | Yep. They'll just sell a dongle for the remaining | accessories, just as they did with 30-pin. | kalleboo wrote: | Basically what I'm assuming is that Apple will adopt USB-C on | the iPhone Pro models (since they need faster file transfer for | the huge 4K ProRes video files anyway, and they were happy to | adopt USB-C on the iPad "Pro" models early) and drop the ports | completely on the non-Pro models. | mort96 wrote: | I wonder if they'll do that with all their "Pro" stuff. Like, | would the AirPods be Qi-only or Lightning+Qi-only, with USB-C | reserved for AirPods Pro? Or would they go USB-C across the | board? Or does Apple imagine a world in which their ideal | "Pro" customer, with their iPad Pro, iPhone Pro, MacBook Pro | and AirPods Pro, keeps around a Lightning charger for only | their earbuds while literally everything else uses USB-C? | | IMO, the only clean solution here is to go with USB-C across | the board. But I also have no faith that will happen. | ratww wrote: | _> MagSafe /Qi. Which they control, and they still can get fees | from_ | | Apple doesn't control Qi. | | I charge my phone with a random $5 charger and it works quite | alright. | rbanffy wrote: | They already use USB-C in the iPad line. What I imagine as the | most likely outcome is keeping USB-C as an option for charging | (as it already is - you don't _need_ to use MagSafe for | charging any supported) and offering USB-C and /or wireless- | only charging on phones. Being wireless-only on phones makes a | lot of sense for ruggedness - a completely sealed iPhone could | be easily used underwater. | lekevicius wrote: | I don't think this is the right take. | | - We already have reliable rumors that next-next iPhone (not | this Sept, but next) will have USB-C port. | | - Qi is not a standard they control like Lightning either way. | | - Portless phone would be very unpopular (no fast charging), | USB-C would be very popular. Apple would not choose to be | unpopular just to watch the world hate them. | glogla wrote: | > - Portless phone would be very unpopular (no fast | charging), USB-C would be very popular. Apple would not | choose to be unpopular just to watch the world hate them. | | The same Apple which removed headphone jack so they can sell | more dongles and wireless headphones? | | I can see them making portless phone just out of pure spite | (maybe having cheaper version with port and not selling that | in EU). | kaba0 wrote: | The headphone jack did take up a considerable amount of | space and made waterproofing quite a bit harder. It't not | like it was not a well-considered tradeoff. Companies don't | work based on spite, but based on profit. | spacexsucks wrote: | mattnewton wrote: | The existence of waterproof Samsung phones of the same | thickness seems to disprove this line for me; it's not a | coincidence that AirPods were released at the same time. | Removing the headphone jack and was at least in part | about the upsell to wireless headphones apple also makes. | hda2 wrote: | I concur. If anything, TRRS jacks should be easier to | waterproof compared to other holes. | spacexsucks wrote: | lekevicius wrote: | > I can see them making portless phone just out of pure | spite (maybe having cheaper version with port and not | selling that in EU). | | What kind of mindset is this? Sometimes Apple prefers | aesthetics over practicality, but they are not a spiteful | company (unless you are Nvidia), particularly when it hurts | customers. | ponow wrote: | I don't accept the right of governments to intervene in what I | and a seller agree to transact. It's an inalienable right where | people care about such things. Definitely not in the EU. | | If you have a problem with pollution, then properly cost that | pollution on an even basis, instead of picking and choosing deep | pockets and other politically palatable targets. | | Man, the 2nd amendment is there for a reason. | enkid wrote: | The second amendment has absolutely nothing to do with this. | This is the EU and the second amendment is about "bearing | arms," not selling electronic equipment. | ponow wrote: | Also, that isn't my main point, about the (lack of) justice | of such action by the EU. I am actually annoyed by | incompatible cabling, but understand that the remedy is | almost always worse than the disease, so reserve intervention | to clear natural rights violations. The EU is an inadequate | alternative to Consumer Reports, product reviews, and | experience. Also, not everyone has the same values, so the EU | is picking priorities for us, which is immoral. | ponow wrote: | Yes, it does: an armed populace is harder to push around. | viktorcode wrote: | In case if you didn't know, all modern Apple lightning chargers | are USB-C chargers. It's the cable which is different. | alexb_ wrote: | inb4 the next iphone has no ports, and the excuse they give | involves being waterproof or something | rootusrootus wrote: | That would be foolish, wireless charging is far too slow to | replace cables anytime soon. | akrymski wrote: | This will finally make me seriously consider moving back to | iPhones. I'm simply not willing to give up being able to charge | my Android phone, M1 laptop, headphones, vape, shaver, oculus, | etc with the same cable. I travel with 1 cable. It's life | changing. | ho_schi wrote: | Instead of "enforcement" I would appreciate good "standards". | This allows for improvement and reasonable exceptions. I would | provide a "customer traffic light" informing about specific | features. | | More specifically I would shift from implementation (How?) to | actual requirements (What?). The implementation is a decision of | the manufacturer. Examples: * User-replaceable | batteries # By Screw? Coin? Flip/Notch on outside? Behind | Backcover? Whatever. * Hardware-maintenance-manuals # | Explosion Diagrams? Text? Step-by-Step? Whatever. * | Locally user replaceable firm- and software! # By Thumbdrive? SD- | Card? USB-Cable? Whatever. | | Historic example. Do we want enforce a specific engine type | {turbojet, turbofan, turboprop) on planes or a specific noise | level? The later! Similar for the EU-Cookie-Directive. They | should have stated that tracking of users is forbidden (What) and | not how to handle Cookies (How). | hcal wrote: | I'm probably overlooking an obvious answer, I'm not sure how | you define this clearly. Using your noise level example, we | know how to measure noise levels. It is straight forward to say | your new technology complies with a noise regulation. | | How do you do that for a regulation like standardized | connectors? Just say you can't use any non-open-standard | connectors? | mrtksn wrote: | By the way, that's also how Tesla and all other cars have the | same electric plug in EU(not the USB mandate but the car plug | standardisation mandate). | | Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens if | better solutions are found. Will EU block innovation? | | That question is addressed in the Q&A: | https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/QANDA_... | | In essence, they seem to believe that wired charging is mature | enough for standardisation but further technologies can be | implemented through "Radio Equipment Directive". In the same | time, it appears that the wireless charging is unaffected because | the tech is new and fast changing, therefore the manufacturers | can include whatever wireless charging they see fit. | | It really boils down to "No funny cables, why don't you try | wireless charging of your liking if USB-C doesn't cut it for | you?". | jeroenhd wrote: | In the USA all modern electric cars also use the normal | standard, except for Tesla. There were a few early offshoots | and Tesla had good reason to come up with their own connector | initially (no other plug could transfer that much power!) but | these days everything has been pretty much consolidated. | | For charging your car at Tesla chargers that haven't been | upgraded to the standard yet there are adaptors available from | Tesla plugs to standard fast charging plugs. | | Older cars may need their weird custom connections but | everything else has been pretty much been standardised. I don't | know how much the EU decision has affected this, but it's not | an EU exclusive feat. | mrtksn wrote: | There's this thing called Brussels effect where manufacturers | pick to default to EU requirements instead of having | different supply chains unless they absolutely have to. | | EU don't like the idea of manufacturers locking down their | users through different standards. EU is a densely populated | place with limited natural resources and free space, | therefore cables piling up or 10 different types of charging | stations are problems that EU cannot afford. EU trash being | shipped to poorer countries is already a serious problem for | example. | | Good to hear that in the US only Tesla was the outlier and | the industry acted responsibly but unless regulated you can't | guarantee that it will be like that or stay like that. | | Businesses love to lock down their users, Tesla chargers are | a major selling point for Tesla and from EU perspective | having multiple charging networks that cannot be made | interoperable without a substantial modifications is a no-no. | mattmaroon wrote: | I don't really get this trash argument even though I hear | it over and over. I throw away a higher volume of stuff in | one or two average days than all the wall warts and phone | cables I've ever owned probably add up to. I've been on | smart phones since Blackberry, and I don't think all of the | chargers and cables I've used over the two decades combined | add up to a single trash can full. | | Interoperability sure. | Someone wrote: | > I throw away a higher volume of stuff in one or two | average days than all the wall warts and phone cables | I've ever owned probably add up to. | | I would think 'mass' is a better metric to use than | 'volume'. Also, it's not only the waste, but also the | work needed to make it, and I would guess that's a lot | harder for electric chargers than for, say, the plastic | bags that take up the bulk of the volume of trash. | | Also, "Others are worse" isn't a strong argument. Some of | the large contributors to trash may not be completely | unavoidable (example: plastic packaging). Because of | that, it's not possible to significantly reduce the | amount of waste by making a few cuts on the largest | contributors of trash. You have to do it by making lots | of small cuts. This is one of them, and also a relatively | easy gain. | mattmaroon wrote: | I would think volume is a better metric because landfills | don't really much care about mass. | | If you wanted to save trash you'd probably go after | packaging. Ban disposable water bottles (or something | less drastic like taxing them extra) and there's 50 | lifetimes of wall warts per person per annum. | | This just isn't really an enviromental problem. Or if it | is, it's so far down the scale as to be pointless to | prioritize over almost anything. It's really about | competition. | wfhordie wrote: | > cannot be made interoperable without a substantial | modifications is a no-no. | | This sentence seems to imply that one cannot charge their | non-Tesla car with the Tesla charging network without | substantial modifications. | | What do you mean by substantial modification? It is already | possible for non-Tesla cars, in the United States, to | charge at Tesla destination chargers with an adapter: | https://qccharge.com/collections/jdapter-stub(tm)-tesla- | station... | | There isn't anything particular magic about Tesla | Superchargers, either. A simple adapter+some API for the | app will open it right up. | | I'm not against standardization, btw. | jsight wrote: | True, and tbh, the adapters don't have to be particularly | clunky. The CCS1 -> Tesla connector adapter is generally | pretty elegant. Its not as nice as the Tesla connector | itself, of course. | | Sadly, the US standard (CCS1) was heavily influenced by a | desire for backward compatibility with J1772. Its not a | great standard in itself. | seanmcdirmid wrote: | What if Apple finally comes out with wired mag safe for the | iPhone? Does they count as wireless? Or would it be illegal in | Europe because a wire was still involved even if the connection | was magnetic? | rektide wrote: | I'd guess that they'd be required to implement both. If | there's a USB-C charging option, I don't think the EU would | prevent an additional magsafe charging. They havent banned | wireless charging, for example. This is to insure an | essential minimum compatibility (I hope/as I see it). | arcticbull wrote: | How about we wait until Apple comes up with a MagSafe | connector for phones they want to use and the big bad | regulators won't let them? | | Tim Cook has his own PR team, haha. | ericd wrote: | Don't you think this might discourage them from investing | the R&D to make something that'll require a fight to | release? | arcticbull wrote: | Since they've been using Lightning for about 10 years | now, I'd say there's other things that are inhibiting | their innovation. I suspect it has more to do with third- | party accessory manufacturers. Unless you're suggesting | that connector innovation requires at least a 10 year | iteration cycle? | zitterbewegung wrote: | USBC can be made to be "MagSafe". When Apple only sold | laptops with USB-C ports there were a bunch of MagSafe | knockoffs sold for laptops. Although most of the time they | would break eventually but it's not impossible. If it just | was a special cord as long as you could use a regular USBC | cord it seems like it would be compliant but IANAL. | seanmcdirmid wrote: | Those solutions aren't very good, so I doubt Apple would go | that route. | | Frankly, I'm expecting the lightning port to be replaced | with a purely inductive/magnetic solution eventually, there | probably will not even be a receptacle for it, just a | wireless contact to the phone from the wire like how the | Apple Watch can only charged. | | I'm guessing in that case, they would be exempt from | providing a usb-c port since the phones would be | technically purely wireless by that point. At that point, | other vendors will follow and the EU will mandate Qi as the | standard wireless charging solution since the USB-C mandate | will be obsolete. | seu wrote: | > Will EU block innovation? | | Innovation is overrated. And standardising is not blocking. | | What we need more urgently than innovation is to stop creating | so much waste, extracting so much stuff from the earth, and in | general reduce consumption. Standardisation accomplishes at | least some of that. | throwaway92394 wrote: | > Innovation is overrated. And standardising is not blocking. | | Hard disagree? Both lightning and USB C were massive | improvements in durability compared to Micro USB - I'd argue | lightning is still better in that regard, because there's no | thin piece inside the phone that can break (did phone repair, | and 99% of the time a "broken" iphone port was just stuck | lint). | | USB C is not universally better then then Micro, namely it | has a much larger footprint both on the connector side and | the PCB. | | > Will EU block innovation? | | So my question is - if there's a new USB standard connector | that's smaller, or is inside-out for better durability - is | it now prevented from being used? | jsight wrote: | I really like what USB-C has done for peripherals and non- | iphone devices, but I agree with you. | | I'd be fine with a new USB-D that fixed all these issues. | USB-C is just mostly better than the other alternatives for | Android and charging laptops. Its far from perfect. | treesknees wrote: | Granted this isn't the fault of the connector, but USB-C is | certainly a mess. My Nintendo Switch uses USB-C charging, | but I can't use my MacBook charger for it. There are | different cables, ratings, etc. "make everything USB-C" is | asking for confusion. As much as I hate having a different | cable for every device, at least when I pick up a (Apple- | branded) lightning cable, I know it will work correctly for | my iPhone. | patentatt wrote: | Isn't the switch a notorious outlier and oddball with | respect to its usb-c implementation though? I think it's | more just that Nintendo screwed up one product than the | standard is bad. | treesknees wrote: | It's certainly the most popular example of poor | implementation. But one could argue that USB-C isn't even | implemented and they just used the connector/form factor | for their cable. I recall the RPI4 also having issues | early on with power over USB-C. | | But that's precisely my problem with this - if we're | forcing every device to merely adopt a USB-C port, that | does nothing to ensure they're actually using USB-C | specifications or interoperable. Game System X and Phone | Y may only work with USB-C cables/chargers X and Y, which | satisfy the requirement without fixing the compatibility | problem. | nybble41 wrote: | > ...if we're forcing every device to merely adopt a | USB-C port, that does nothing to ensure they're actually | using USB-C specifications or interoperable. | | You certainly need more than just the physical port. IMHO | the minimum reasonable requirement would be that the | device must charge at near the maximum supported rate | (minimum of the device's, cable's, and charger's | advertised rates) with _any_ combination of compliant | charger & cable. There wouldn't be much point in | mandating the use of USB-C ports otherwise. | ajsnigrutin wrote: | Are really the non-standard cables to blame here? | | How about non-removable batteries and unrepairable phones? | Many phones would be still ok, but the non-removable | (cheaply) battery means that they get replaced prematurely, | because the cost of replacement is overlapping the price of a | low/mid tear phones. Back in the day, you pulled the back | cover off, put a new batter in, and the phone was as good as | new. Same with other types of repair, especially the kinds | where manufacturer just replaces the whole assembly just | because of one small part malfunctioning. | sva_ wrote: | Probably several things. They're working on the battery- | issue: https://repair.eu/news/the-european-parliament- | calls-for-rem... | gumby wrote: | > Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens | if better solutions are found. Will EU block innovation? | | Previously the EU had a (non-compulsory) rule on micro A as the | charging standard: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply | | Plus they leave the door open for a wireless alternative. | Vladimof wrote: | > Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens | if better solutions are found. Will EU block innovation? | | no... we also had the Micro USB standard because of Europe... | smaryjerry wrote: | Standards are a good thing but I'm not sure that we have | reached this point where USB-C is functionally the best. If we | could completely eliminate on all other types of connectors on | not just phones but computers then I would say it's time to | standardize. Unfortunately on my computer if I want a 4K | resolution and frame rate that is way 300 hz then is it even | possible that can be done over a USB-C connector? Hopefully | some expert can chime in but display port or hdmi 2.1+ or | multiple of those cables is what is used typically, and if | USB-c worked perfectly why isn't that already replacing every | single port on a computer? Phones will eventually be as fast or | faster than the current computers, so why implement a | limitation when it feels like phones are still at the baby | steps in phone evolution? That is just data transfer and I'm no | expert but I'm not certain either than charging has reached | it's final form either. Am I wrong, is the USB-c connector | capable of infinite data transfer rate as long as your cable is | good enough? | bluGill wrote: | The constitution gives US congress the right to set standards | for weights and measures, which unless you use a very strict | reading says they can set charging standards. I wish they | would. Tesla (and Nissan) as early movers 10 years ago can be | forgiven for not adopting a standard charger, but now they need | to update to the standard. (IIRC both are planning on it) | golemotron wrote: | Reading charging standards as "weights and measures" is on | par with classifying bumblebees as fish. | | Not only aren't these strict readings, they aren't even | sensible. | kube-system wrote: | Standardization of metering devices used in commerce is | directly in the purview of Weights and Measures regulation. | | For example, NIST Weights and Measures division regulates | the nozzle on the dispenser used for gasoline in the US. | | > Each retail dispensing device from which fuel products | are sold shall be equipped with a nozzle spout having a | diameter that conforms with the latest version of SAE J285, | "Dispenser Nozzle Spouts for Liquid Fuel Intended for Use | with Spark-Ignition and Compression Ignition Engines." | | https://www.nist.gov/system/files/documents/2019/12/06/00-2 | 0... | | A metering devices that dispenses electrical power is no | different. https://www.nist.gov/pml/weights-and- | measures/legal-metrolog... | nybble41 wrote: | Ensuring _accurate_ metering in the context of commerce | is within the scope of "To ... fix the Standard of | Weights and Measures". The specific form of the nozzle | clearly is not, but they might justify it on the basis of | some other enumerated power--the interstate commerce | clause is frequently (ab)used for this sort of thing. | Nothing technically requires every regulation produced by | the NIST Weights and Measures division to be grounded | exclusively in the Weights and Measures clause, though | one could be forgiven for making that assumption. | | As dpratt remarked earlier[0], any interpretation which | would deem nozzle size--or the specific form of an | electrical connector--to be covered by the Weights and | Measures clause of the Constitution would effectively | cede unlimited power to the federal government. What | _couldn 't_ they regulate under such broad rules? | | [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31654558 | kube-system wrote: | I'm not saying that the regulatory power in this case is | derived solely from the weights and measures clause, I'm | countering golemotron's suggestion that it's a wholly | unrelated topic. It's a topic so closely relevant to | weights and measures that the regulatory division that | currently regulates them bears that title. | golemotron wrote: | It's an overreach. "A pound is 16 ounces" is not the same | as "cakes shall only be 5 ounces," i.e., a standard of | measure does not extend to regulation of what is measured | and what measures are permitted. An originalist court | could fix this. | kube-system wrote: | That analogy does not hold up. A fuel dispenser _is_ a | metering device. The scale at your grocery store that | measures the weight of the cake is, likewise, an NTEP | scale: https://www.nist.gov/programs-projects/national- | type-evaluat... | | These are very fundamental consumer protection | regulations that have been solidly cemented in western | civilization for many centuries now. | | >not extend to regulation of [...] what measures are | permitted. | | That was exactly the point of that clause. The colonies | all had their own system of measurement and it was a mess | trying to do business. Now, congress did very little | about it, but the founders intentionally reserved the | right for them to fix that problem. | golemotron wrote: | The problem with your formulation is that there is no | limiting principle. Perversely, the government could rule | that a pregnant person is a metering device for gestation | and establish standards. | kube-system wrote: | No, a pregnancy does not meter any commercial exchange of | goods. | larryett wrote: | If only we had mandated VGA 20 years ago I wouldn't have to | stress over all these different connections under my monitor. | | You can't possibly believe what you typed. | dpratt wrote: | If by "strict reading" you mean "any reading at all", I would | agree. | | I'm not sure how the legal power to say "the unit of mass | called the 'gram' shall be defined as the mass of a cube of | pure water, one centimeter on each side" allows you to say | "anybody that manufactures a phone must include the following | physical and logical features." If you go off that | definition, you're basically ceding pretty much unlimited | power to the government. | kube-system wrote: | For phones, you're right. | | For cars, we have public metering devices that measure | units of stuff and charge money. This makes it fall into | the category of metering devices used in trade. And we do | regulate those almost universally. You can't just put a | different shape nozzle on a gas pump, for instance. | [deleted] | mmis1000 wrote: | > Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens | if better solutions are found. Will EU block innovation? | | Usb typec wire from 65A(non e-marked wire) to 240A(the latest | standardized e-marked wire) uses literally the same plug. | | Typec is the header but not the protocol. Even China phone | vendor's proprietary high speed charging protocol use typec | wire. And Intel's tb4 wire also use a type c wire. (the | bandwidth of tb4 is definitely overkill for every phone ever | made on the world for now) | | Force use of typec header and baseline charging protocol | prevent innovation is just bs consider this didn't even prevent | apple from making a MFA e-marked typec cable.(Or they don't | want this to pass because they actually want to do this again?) | izzydata wrote: | It would be nice if we could limit new standards to once every | 5-10 years. At which time people can submit new ideas for | standardization approval and then the best one gets picked and | everyone is required to switch. Backwards compatibility would | probably score a lot of points. | ciupicri wrote: | Speaking of cars and standardization, I'm still waiting for the | European Union to put the steering wheel on the left side of | the car and while we're at it, make it mandatory to drive on | the right side of the road. | umeshunni wrote: | In another generation, cars will be self driving and this | will just be a code change. | maest wrote: | Is your point that since there exist a standard which | occurred without government intervention, then the government | should never intervene to create any standards? | lrem wrote: | Demographics seems to suggest that the prospect of | unification is not unrealistic within our lifetimes. | peoplefromibiza wrote: | > "No funny cables, why don't you try wireless charging of your | liking if USB-C doesn't cut it for you?". | | it boils down to "as long as the USB-C is provided" | | anyway electric plugs have been a standard for decades, better | options to supply energy have come out, the plugs have stayed | the same. | | I don't understand the FOMO. | mrtksn wrote: | > it boils down to "as long as the USB-C is provided" | | Can you provide a source? AFAIK you can have a device without | USB-C and only wireless charging. | peoplefromibiza wrote: | it's literally in the first page | | _in so far as they are capable of being recharged via | wired charging, shall:_ | | so you can have all the funny cables you want, as long as | you provide the USB-C plug | | If there is no wired charging, there is no problem of funny | cables. | | but companies are free to experiment all the kinds of wired | charging they want, it's just more convenient to have a | standard and they'll comply happily I guess, now that they | are forced by the law and can stop competing on stupid | stuff like charging cables. | dfox wrote: | There is a huge question of what exactly "are capable of | being recharged via wired charging" means. Does the | hidden Lightning connector on Apple Watch that most | consumers don't even know is there count? | lynguist wrote: | Look, we have the headphone jack (6.35mm) stemming from 1877, | and its miniature form (3.5mm) from 1960. | | It's ok to let USB-C live for another 60-100 years. | mmis1000 wrote: | It will probably last for very long consider 24 wire of type | c is a lot compares to 4 of 3.5mm jack. And it can actually | be repurposed by changing the protocol (software) ? | | Probably until someday that 24 physical wire isn't enough for | a phone. (but the iPhone don't even use the usb3 yet, why did | it even need these bandwidth?) | CardenB wrote: | This is a flawed comparison because the use cases for the | former examples are very limited in comparison to USB C which | is arguably evolving rapidly still. | | You could imagine if we had formed such a standard around USB | A in the 90s and how it might have blocked the already high | friction establishment of USB C and thunderbolt 3 standards. | | USB C currently seems more mature than USB A, so I can see | where things ar ea bit subjective here, but it's not really | possible to see where unrestricted development would have put | us. | | I think I would have been more comfortable with simply | banning lightning and micro USB than restricting to only USB | C. | ClumsyPilot wrote: | This regulation is about charging - so power, not data / | thunderbolt. And when it comes to charging USB C can | delvier 100W, which is enough for any small gadget, phone, | etc. | bonzini wrote: | The first version of the EU regulation suggested USB micro. | There's a reason why it took ten years to go from | suggestion to requirement. | im3w1l wrote: | The 3.5mm jack is not that good in my opinion. It fails too | quickly. Less than a year for a portable device that bumps | around in your pocket and reconnect a couple times a day. Now | I still prefer it in many situations to bluetooth with its | latency and packet drop issues, but I do think that a better | jack could be made and is worth making. | | As for suggestions for improvements: it should not be able to | spin, because spinning wears it down. Second, maybe some kind | of latch to lock it into place. | samatman wrote: | > _Will EU block innovation?_ | | It already has. Tesla's connector is nicer (you can call that | subjective but it isn't) and the supercharging network in the | US is deploying the clunky standard sort of connector as well. | | If EU legislation were universal, that would preclude any | future where the superior connector is licensed and takes over | from the crappy designed-by-committee alternative, because | Tesla would be forced to stop manufacturing it. | | Legislators deciding who gets to be VHS and who has to be | Betamax is bad, actually. | moduspol wrote: | This is the case I try to make to friends and relatives (non- | EV owners) who insist that a common plug is a prerequisite to | EV ownership. | | Standardizing against Tesla at any earlier point would have | been a gift on a silver platter for legacy auto by slowing EV | adoption, and it's Tesla's freedom to innovate that is why | we're even having this discussion instead of theoretical | questions about what EVs might be like in the future. | | I usually tell them to let Tesla solve the remaining edge | cases (semis, trailer hauling, and charge speeds comparable | to ICE fill-ups) before we start regulating. Setting things | in stone now would be like standardizing on DSL as the only | last-mile broadband in 2004. We don't want to do that. | bonzini wrote: | > charge speeds comparable to ICE fill-ups | | That's just impossible. Filling a 100 kWh "tank" in one | minute requires 6 MW of power, plus all the power that goes | into heat. The only solution would be replacing batteries | on the fly but Tesla discontinued it. | | Moving stuff is inherently faster than chemical reactions | (unless you're talking about explosions). | moduspol wrote: | It doesn't have to be equivalent. Just being comparable | from a user experience and business case perspective | would be enough. | | Getting it down to five minutes to fill to 80% may be | sufficient. Right now it's 15-20 minutes. | bonzini wrote: | The problem is not just the time to charge a single car | but the capacity in cars/hour. | | First, if a car takes five times longer to charge, you | need a lot more space to cover the needs for peak days. | This may not be a problem on highways (or in the US) but | space in Europe is much more limited. | | Second, a smallish 6-pump filling station serves 150-200 | cars per hour. An equivalent charging station would need | 12-15 MW which means working at 40 kV. | | Dealing with peak days is easy for filling stations, you | just request gasoline trucks more frequently. For | charging stations you need to build infrastructure that | might hardly exist in more rural places, it's the same as | sneakernet vs broadband. | chroma wrote: | It's hard to calculate how many charging stations will be | needed. Most EV owners plug their cars in at home and | wake up every day with a full charge. They only use | charging stations for road trips. Also charging stations | can be installed in far more places than gas stations. | There are no hazardous fumes or massive fire risks. They | don't require nearly as much maintenance or staff. For | these reasons it's common to see charging stations in | parking garages, in front of hotels, or even next to the | beach[1]. | | 1. https://imgur.com/a/vd4dStk | mrtksn wrote: | EU is a densely populated place where having multiple | charging networks of incomparable plugs will be horrible. | | When you are not happy with decisions the governments make, | it usually means that you should be involved in the process | of making the decisions. | | Europeans don't trust that the industry will always come up | with the best solutions for the user, Americans usually don't | trust the government doing something well unless it's the | military. Let's agree to disagree. | | I like that the car plugs are the same everywhere in EU and | want it to stay that way and enjoy the Tesla plugs on a trip | to USA. | potatochup wrote: | Random anecdote: I once got stuck at a friends place in | Denmark with my Tesla, because the mobile connector | wouldn't work. Turns out despite the voltage and socket | being the same, the grounding can vary between countries | and the connector wouldn't let me charge (this was back in | 2016, I'm not sure if newer mobile connectors are better in | that regard) | bonzini wrote: | Is that because some places have 230V and neutral, while | others have -115V and +115V (yes like in the US but in | Europe)? | | There's a single neighborhood in Rome where that happens | and car chargers don't work. The "solution" is to request | a three-phase 400V connection: the utility company can't | deny it and it must be 220V to neutral. | afiori wrote: | I would like to live in the alternative reality were all | AC is three-phase AC; probably it would be uselessly more | expensive for normal domestic stuff but it would be quite | cooler. | [deleted] | [deleted] | ericmay wrote: | > EU is a densely populated place where having multiple | charging networks of incomparable plugs will be horrible. | | In the short term, yes. In the long term however | competition between these different standards will cause | consolidation and overall technology improvement. The next | step will be regulating wireless charging so that all | devices have to use/do the same thing, rinse-wash-repeat. | | > Europeans don't trust that the industry will always come | up with the best solutions for the user, Americans usually | don't trust the government doing something well unless it's | the military. Let's agree to disagree. | | A better way to think about this is that both "groups" can | learn from one another. For example you could say that | Europeans should be suspicious about USB-C manufacturers | and advocates effectively being granted a monopoly in the | name of convenience. Americans should better trust that | certainly in the case of infrastructure it makes sense to | have a single standard "plug" for electric vehicles because | we really need as many people driving them as possible in | the most convenient way. | amluto wrote: | > In the long term however competition between these | different standards will cause consolidation and overall | technology improvement. | | If you think that's a superior solution, then the | regulation should actually support it: require that all | EV charging connectors have a free published | specification, disallow patents on them, and require that | interoperability be permitted without cost or other | penalty. (e.g. anyone should be able to implement both | ends of the Tesla supercharging protocol such that | Tesla's chargers would charge a competing car at the same | prices that they charge Tesla's; similarly, a competing | charger should be able to charge a Tesla.) | ericmay wrote: | I'm not opposed to this and personally think it's all up | for discussion/debate and it should be discussed and | debated. I'm excited to see what develops in this space. | | One nitpick would be: | | > e.g. anyone should be able to implement both ends of | the Tesla supercharging protocol such that Tesla's | chargers would charge a competing car at the same prices | that they charge Tesla's; similarly, a competing chargers | should be able to charge a Tesla. | | I think this sounds good, but one of the details here is | ensuring that other manufacturers are able to actually | build the products correctly so a supercharger doesn't | light a car on fire or something due to faulty equipment. | Who is at fault? How is it prevented? What are the legal | agreements? Etc. | | On the pricing side though I'd have to strongly disagree. | Tesla (or whoever) builds the infrastructure so they | should be able to charge what they want. It's about the | plug and interoperability of that standard, not | infringing on the business model which I think goes too | far. If they charge too much money, people won't use them | and competitors will continue to emerge (I see new | charging stations in Meijer parking lots being put next | to Tesla infrastructure). There's no reason in my view to | mandate pricing here and I think it would set back EV | adoption to do so. | kiawe_fire wrote: | I was set to be all libertarian about this, but your | suggestion is probably more level headed. | | There should be some common ground. Regulations that | encourage innovation (perhaps even with timed financial | incentives) while also ensuring that the best ideas are | eventually freely adoptable across the board. | | Seems like, as with most issues, people take one extreme | or the other, when a common sense middle ground could be | found with proper planning and forethought. | nybble41 wrote: | > I was set to be all libertarian about this... | | Disallowing patents _is_ the libertarian solution, though | it would be up to the customers to demand published | specifications and official support for interoperability. | dfox wrote: | The original intention of patent system was to encourage | open publication of inventions. It even still works that | way for some verticals. The issue is that it also | produced a system that it is profitable to game and thus | there are patent attorneys who get by by writing the | patent in as vague terms as is possible to pass by patent | reviewers, and in these kind of adversarial situations it | is quite obvious that the private sector will win over | the government bureaucrats. | nybble41 wrote: | > The original intention of patent system was to | encourage open publication of inventions. | | That is how it was sold to the public. Unfortunately the | system was never designed with the proper structure and | incentives to ensure that patents were only granted when | doing so actually resulted in the publication of accurate | details about useful inventions which would not have | become known to the public anyway well before the patent | period expired. | | In practice, if you think you can keep something a trade | secret for more than 20 years without it being | independently reinvented you'll do that and not file for | a patent. Patents are thus useful only in those cases | where a patent is expected to be _worse_ for the public | than a trade secret, as they inhibit independent | reinvention and reverse engineering for the duration of | the patent. | geysersam wrote: | > being granted a monopoly | | Anyone can produce USB-C chargers. That's _not_ a | monopoly. This will effectively _enable_ competition on | the charging market, since the big players can 't bind | their products to their own proprietary chargers anymore. | | Have you ever felt the Apple/Microsoft charger to be | lacking in some way? Breaking easily, too long cords, too | short, wrong color, too expensive? Congratulations now | you can make and sell those better chargers. Before, this | was not possible. | ericmay wrote: | Yes but all you're really doing is encouraging everyone | to stay locked in to a _USB-C market_. This isn't | enabling competition in the charging market, it's | eliminating or hamstringing competing markets. You won't | create a new charging apparatus because you're legally | required to use USB-C. | | "What if we created a charging cable that did X,Y,Z?" | | "That would be cool but we have to use USB-C" | | > Have you ever felt the Apple/Microsoft charger to be | lacking in some way? Breaking easily, too long cords, too | short, wrong color, too expensive? | | No not really. In fact I've found most third-party | products to be godawful. Good luck not buying something | fraudulent on Amazon.com. But also, I'm not really sure | what you are talking about. Companies sell charging | equipment and cords now anyway. | | Everything has trade-offs. I'm skeptical of the necessity | of this regulation, especially given that the only | holdout that anyone cares about is Apple and they've been | adopting USB-C in all of their products over time. One | benefit though will be manufacturers won't include | charging cables with new devices anymore. So that will | further reduce waste. Wouldn't be surprised to see | lobbying behind the scenes from companies such as Apple | to implement regulations like this so they can save | money. I kind of like this as an investor because now you | can save money by not including a cable (or maybe you | still do and it's just some cheap one for now) and then | you go and up sell wireless chargers instead. | mrtksn wrote: | We can copy the US if the cable freedom gives birth to | superior cables on the long run. EU stuff is't written on | stone, it changes as it needs to. | | I guess In Europe we kind of like the idea of being able | to overthrow the people in power if they screw us too | much. It's much more socially acceptable to burn cars and | occupy streets and decapitate politicians than shooting | CEO's when you are really not happy with the way things | work. It feels like you have control over the stuff going | on in your country. | ericd wrote: | You're really ignoring the amount of inertia that a | deployed fleet of cars creates. You can't just change | standards with the snap of a finger once there are 10M | cars in the field with it, once that happens, you're | stuck with that standard for probably decades, as the | downsides of changing it become much more acute than the | potential upsides. | mrtksn wrote: | If the US comes up with the superior cables, EU will | simply allow it be optional and the industry will | retrofit as needed. | | Europe is very old, we are used to have old stuff laying | around. Old building that definitely don't meet the | modern requirements are everywhere. Besides, the states | with Cable Freedom will also have all the obsolate cables | when the industry finally comes up with the perfect | cable. | paulmd wrote: | > Europe is very old, we are used to have old stuff | laying around. | | So what's the problem with allowing lightning to exist, | since as a standard it predated USB-C (and in fact was | the impetus for the creation of the latter)? If we allow | neighborhoods to keep their old power connectors without | retrofit... why not allow lightning to continue to exist? | Dylan16807 wrote: | There's a difference between allowing old installations | to continue existing and allowing mass manufacture of the | old standard indefinitely. This legislation isn't going | to touch anyone's old phones. | tinus_hn wrote: | All aside, it's pretending 'we' as civilians have any | kind of influence in what the EU does. In reality it's | just an opaque process ran by politicians where 99% of | the electorate has no idea whatsoever how they got there | or even what party they belong to. | HPsquared wrote: | Being densely-populated makes it _easier_ to have a range | of different plugs, since there will be a range of | alternatives, and you 'll be able to find the right one for | you nearby. | | Consider the opposite of a sparsely-populated region, where | the next charging point may be 50 miles away. In that case, | having a random hodge-podge of competing connectors could | have actual consequences. | | In practice though, there is not much of an effect either | way. All parties have an interest in interoperability: car | owners would have adapter to hand if this was a common | problem, and charging stations would make themselves | available to as many paying customers as possible. | mrtksn wrote: | When you have 24 official languages in 27 countries with | no physical borders it doesn't end up having an even | distribution of plugs but clusters of different types. | There are no large wastelands of cheap land where every | network can have a station, it's usually one station on | each side of the road every 50km on the highways. In | cities, a lot of things are retrofitted into medieval | city structure so there's not much free space for all | your charging needs. | | As a result, this will create artificial limits on where | people can travel. EU is that much into standardisation | because we want to remove these artificial limits created | through the thousands years of history. | afiori wrote: | If the solution would be to use a lot of random adapters | then we should simply standardize from the start. | | If 35% of ICE had square gas sockets and we had to keep | around square-to-circle adapters the situation would not | be better. | | An EV charging port is handful of metal rods with a | handle. | marssaxman wrote: | > When you are not happy with decisions the governments | make, it usually means that you should be involved in the | process of making the decisions. | | Most of us are not billionaires. | mrtksn wrote: | You don't need to be. "We can't do anything about | anything because the system is run by the billionaires | and unless you are one, you have no power" narrative is | not only false but also harmful. | marssaxman wrote: | Please pardon my inadvertent US-centrism! If you live in | a country with a functioning democracy, of course it | would make sense to participate. Here in the US, average | citizens have little to no influence on policy: | | https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on- | poli... | least wrote: | This isn't the case in the US, either. How much influence | do you think one person in the US, one of hundreds of | millions of people, should normally have? Your power to | influence policy is obviously going to dilute the further | up the chain of government you go. You could involve | yourself in local politics where the population of people | is much smaller (and consequentially, your influence is | much larger), or you could try to become a representative | yourself. | | National politics in the US is certainly perverse, though | it's probably just your US-centrism at work again if you | think it's exceptional in this regard. | ciupicri wrote: | krzyk wrote: | What's wrong with "charger thing"? I was waiting for that | for years. | | And GDPR? Really? | ciupicri wrote: | It's not anyone's business what kind of phone I buy. If | chargers pollute so much, just tax them and be done with | it. | | I'll add to kukx's reason the fact that I can't access | some websites anymore because who wants to spend time | with bureaucracy so that the website is 100% compliant | with GDPR? | kukx wrote: | Agree 100%. The cookie law is the most visible failure of | these regulations. I feel like they should pay me from | their own pockets each time I have to click the cookie | banner. And by their own pockets I mean the money they | got from other sources than taxpayers money. Of course | someone will argue that the intentions were good. Often | they are! But it does not make it much better. | mrtksn wrote: | What failure? Now everyone knows they are tracked and | it's an actual issue. | | Besides, the websites could have chosen not to have that | cookie window. | Karunamon wrote: | Most people are more bothered by the annoyance then some | nebulous, intangible "tracking" that will likely never | have a visible effect on their lives. | | Outside of high tech places like HackerNews, mention the | tracking and you'll get a shrug, mention the cookie | banners and you'll get a "yeah I hate that crap" | samatman wrote: | I'm not a citizen of the EU, so your various centrally- | planned interventions in the world economy affect me | without any possibility of representation. | | It leaves me hoping your economy becomes much smaller so | Asia can start ignoring it. Or reform I guess, the vote is | yours, not mine. | mrtksn wrote: | We all affect each other, a lot of American things have | become de facto stands. Anyway, be careful what you wish | because it might become real and you might find out that | Asia is not the libertarian utopia. | oblio wrote: | If anything, Asia is generally more collectivist than | Europe or the US. | maest wrote: | Would you happier if you were affected by European | corporate actions instead? | | We live in a global economy, you are constantly affected | by things happening thousand of miles away (e.g. Ukraine | invasion bumped the price of gas across the world). Not | sure why you're conflating that with the fact that these | actions are "centrally-planned". | theplumber wrote: | Imagine different gasoline plugs...that would be stupid, | isnt't it? Or different fuel formula for different car | models or different AC sockets in the same house... | | Also I'm not sure why you hold Asia so dear. You may soon | get some centrally planned standards from China in the EV | market and not only(i.e online services such tiktok) | tacitusarc wrote: | I was unable to find any record of legislation forcing | standardization of gas pump form factors. Also, in my | experience different pumps operate at different rates. I | think the fact that pumps tend to be quite similar is a | result of their mechanical nature, where less precision | is required. | heretogetout wrote: | Check this out: | | > (f) Every retailer and wholesale purchaser-consumer | shall equip all gasoline pumps from which gasoline is | dispensed into motor vehicles with a nozzle spout that | meets all the following specifications: | | > (1) The outside diameter of the terminal end shall not | be greater than 0.840 inches (2.134 centimeters). | | > (2) The terminal end shall have a straight section of | at least 2.5 inches (6.34 centimeters). | | https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/40/80.22 | | Edit: fixed formatting | [deleted] | afiori wrote: | > different AC sockets in the same house | | cries in Italian... | noahtallen wrote: | I agree with you, but noting that fuel may not be the | best example as you have both completely different fuels | (like diesel) and different types of normal gas (premium) | | Still though, having the same "regular" gas at every | single gas station is an underrated benefit! | Lio wrote: | How is this different from the American FAA dictating | that all aeroplane toilets have to have ashtrays whist at | the same time banning smoking on flights[1]? | | Should Europeans start hoping the US economy fails so | that then FAA has less influence?[3] | | Really I don't think this is something that really | matters in the grand scheme of things. USB-C is a good | enough standard and I don't see Apple coming out with | some great new alternative. | | From my perspective I have loads of broken Lightning | cables but no broken USB-C ones. Also if something is | going to break I'd rather the springs be in the cheap | cable than the expensive phone socket as with Lightning. | | 1. Now you might think it's for people who break the | smoking rule to have somewhere to put out their fags[2] | but the "innovative" solution to that would be the sink. | | 2. You know that I know you know that's slang for | cigarette, so stick to the point at hand please. :P | | 3. Just in case that's not blindingly obvious, the answer | is NO, that would be terrible for everyone involved | including both Europeans and Americans. | chmod600 wrote: | "When you are not happy with decisions the governments | make, it usually means that you should be involved in the | process of making the decisions." | | Democracy is a very blunt tool. Very important when needed, | but not good for fine tuning on any reasonable timescale. | worik wrote: | Democracy is not elections. | | Democracy is the freedom and right of involvement for the | stakeholders (among other things) | | > Democracy is a very blunt tool. Very important when | needed, but not good for fine tuning on any reasonable | time scale. | | Very good for fine tuning at human time scales. | chmod600 wrote: | Let's say I invent a better connector tomorrow. Nobody | other than me really knows if it's better or not. The | only way for me to convince people is to get it out there | in the market so people can try it. | | How does that work by voting or any other democratic | activity? | | Others will be unconvinced that it's really better, for | the same reason people are skeptical of startup ideas | until they become mainstream. So nobody will want to | update the standard. So I couldn't release it in the | market to prove that it's better, because that would be | "lock-in". And the idea would die. | mcv wrote: | I can imagine that car charging is still too new and fast- | moving to enforce a single standard, unlike phone charging, | where it's just ridiculous to have 3 separate standards. | | On the other hand, you're absolutely right that it doesn't | help anyone if your car is incompatible with half of the | chargers out there. Are adapter cables an option, perhaps? | jsight wrote: | Yes. Tesla has a simple passthrough adapter for CCS1. | Other adapters are also possible. | nybble41 wrote: | Some adapters are more problematic than others. For | example if the charger and the vehicle both expect the | other side to initiate the charging process and withhold | power until some voltage is detected then the adapter may | need its own independent power supply to jump-start the | charging process. Locks are another problem--some | combinations would require the adapter to provide powered | locking mechanisms for both sides. None of this makes an | adapter _impossible_ , but it could be too expensive or | unwieldy to be a practical solution. | dreamcompiler wrote: | I presume you're talking about the J1772/CCS1 adapter | that comes for free with every Tesla. This adapter is | occasionally handy but it does _not_ allow fast ( | "super") DC charging. It's strictly a Level 2 AC adapter, | which means it takes a few hours to charge your car | fully. | | The CCS adapter that allows you to supercharge a Tesla at | non-Tesla DC superchargers is not (yet) available in the | US [0]. Tesla does make them and you can buy them in | South Korea, but not in the US. | | [0] Except for a dodgy Chinese gizmo which I won't link | to because it's reputed not to work reliably. | agloeregrets wrote: | On the other hand, companies building wholly proprietary | infrastructure is just pure e-waste on the back of the | citizens of those countries that ALSO limits innovation. | | Imagine a world where Ford cars use a different gas nozzle | from a GM product in the US. The average person would have to | pick and choose stations and if one were to go out of | business, the lesser standard would encounter mass disposal | and retrofit, all on the backs of consumers. The intent with | these products is generally not innovation...it is lock in | and licensing fees. The EU law in case here has a committee | that reviews the standard yearly and accepts proposals. | rubatuga wrote: | We should also mandate the reduction of open source | projects, after all there are too many competing standards. | We don't want code to be wasted now do we? Let's start by | banning the use of Tensorflow | oblio wrote: | That's just a dumb argument. Open source projects can | just be forked with no monetary implications. | treis wrote: | >The average person would have to pick and choose stations | | Stations would just have two nozzles on their pumps. | isignal wrote: | What if Ford operates their own stations? Would they | still have two plugs? | | (see: Tesla superchargers) | delecti wrote: | Well, three, because diesel pump nozzles are already a | different standard. | kibwen wrote: | Well, eight, because you'd have two each for diesel and | each of the three octanes. | skykooler wrote: | Diesel pump nozzles actually have multiple standards - | there's one about the same size as a gas nozzle that's | used for diesel cars and pickups, and a bigger one that's | used for trucks and buses. | aiisjustanif wrote: | Imagine if we had this outlook towards plugs in houses in the | US. Standardization is underrated. | wumpus wrote: | There are a bunch of different plugs in houses in the US, | look at electric stoves and clothes dryers. | [deleted] | itsoktocry wrote: | > _look at electric stoves and clothes dryers_ | | Those are 240V plugs, which are also standardized. | vel0city wrote: | They're all a part of the NEMA standard. The different | plugs denote different capacities of the circuit and the | requirements of the load. That way you can't accidentally | plug a 30A device in a 15A circuit or you can't plug a | 120V device into a 240V plug. If the wiring to your stove | top is only 30A but you bought a 50A stove, you shouldn't | be able to plug it in and just hope the circuit breaker | trips before the wires melt to let you know you did it | wrong. | | Its not like there's a plug for Samsung TVs, a different | plug for Sonos sound bars, a different plug for a Sony | alarm clock, a different plug for a Singer sewing | machine, etc. They're all going to be a NEMA 5-15 plug | since all of these things are ~120V and use less than | 15A. | kube-system wrote: | Funny, because all of North America uses the NEMA standard | and the EU uses a bunch of different plugs. | krzyk wrote: | No, EU uses a single plug, it is called "Type C" (no, not | USB-C). What you might find in some poorer regions in EU | is old plugs that were there pre-EU, or | prestandardization. | | I can say that, because Brexit happened, I have no clue | what those were thinking when designing their own | gigantic plug. | rand49an wrote: | Probably why they are more conscious it's a problem then. | pmyteh wrote: | Yeah. The rollout of domestic wiring standards was pre- | EU, and dealing with the entrenched incompatible | standardisation gets in the way of the EU goal of a | single market in goods and services. They _really_ don 't | want more arbitrary standards that vary nationally. | | Of course, that's not quite the same as the laptop | charger question where the fragmentation is between | companies and less entrenched. But still. | ehsankia wrote: | I would rather have a shared and slightly less optimal cable, | than a unique and "nicer" cable. USB-C is the perfect | example, you can argue that lightning cable is actually | nicer, but being able to charge all my different devices with | a single cable is far nicer. | | If every company thought like Tesla/Apple, we'd quickly go | down a very untenable road. | mattmoose21 wrote: | Having a car manufacturer dictate where you plug in is bad, | actually. | itsoktocry wrote: | > _Legislators deciding who gets to be VHS and who has to be | Betamax is bad, actually_ | | Interesting example. Betamax was technologically superior, | but lost out due to marginally higher costs. What makes you | think Tesla's connector wouldn't suffer the same fate? | diffeomorphism wrote: | > If EU legislation were universal, that would preclude any | future where... | | Your crystal ball seems broken. You could have said the exact | same thing about micro-usb for phone chargers, yet somehow we | ended up in the present. | | Hint: Your supposed critical flaw is incredibly obvious. So | either everyone but you is an idiot or just maybe the people | making laws have thought of that too... | dreamcompiler wrote: | I's absolutely true that Tesla's EV connector is better than | CCS, and it's a pity that Tesla lost that battle. | | But it's also true that USB-C with PD is better than the | alternatives in its space so occasionally the committees get | things right. | phkahler wrote: | >> I's absolutely true that Tesla's EV connector is better | than CCS, and it's a pity that Tesla lost that battle. | | Currently working at a company that makes CCS chargers. Can | confirm the standard is an absolute shit show, the cables | are heavy, and the plugs are a giant pain in the ass. But | hey, it's the standard so that's what we make. Oh, and why | TF do we have a PowerLine Communication chip to talk to the | vehicle over (non-power) signal wires? A few CAN messages | would have done the job. One of the stupidest communication | standards ever. | dreamcompiler wrote: | Tesla's connector uses CAN over signal wires, and it uses | the same power pins for both AC and DC which makes the | connector light and sleek. If you think VHS is worse than | Betamax, CCS is _more worse_ than Tesla 's connector. | ddalex wrote: | No it doesn't, in the legislation itself there is the | provision of how to deal with technological advancements. | taylodl wrote: | Different countries already have many different rules for | autos. That's why it's difficult to be a world-wide auto | manufacturer: you have to comply with so many different rules | from different countries. That's just the cost of doing | business and has been for decades. | | If Apple believes USB-C is really that bad (which I don't | think they do) - then they have the option of creating a | handset only for sale in Europe or they can remove all | charging ports and go wireless charging. I bet they go with | USB-C charging and wireless charging. | mytailorisrich wrote: | It makes sense for cars to have a standard connector so that | they may be charged without any problem at any public | charging station. After all, there is a standard fuel nozzle | for ICE vehicles. | | On the other hand, this requirement to have an USB-C | connector is pretty useless to downright counter-productive | as it will indeed prevent innovation. It's just political | hand-waving. | ARandumGuy wrote: | Sure, the Tesla connector is smaller, and a little sleeker. | But from a functionality perspective, the plug types are | basically identical. Both allow AC standard charging and DC | fast charging. Electric cables aren't that complicated. | chroma wrote: | Compared to CCS, Tesla made a ton of smart decisions with | their charging setup: | | - All Teslas have their charging ports at the rear left | side. This means that charging cables can be very short. | Longer cables would cause tangles, cost more, and be harder | to cool. | | - Tesla's protocol has built-in payment. You plug in and | charge. With CCS it varies. Sometimes you use a credit | card. Sometimes you download a mobile app and sign up for | some account. Sometimes the planets align and CCS's plug- | and-charge works. | | - The CCS plug is much bigger. If you look at the connector | sizes[1] or adapters[2], the CSS plug is comically huge. | Tesla had to redesign the tail lights on the Model S/X to | fit CCS Combo 2 ports. | | - Every exposed contact is a potential failure point, and | CCS exposes more contacts than Tesla's charging port. | | - CCS has two different plug dimensions which are used in | different regions, so a European CCS vehicle brought to | North America will need an adapter (and vice-versa). | | - If your vehicle only supports AC charging, you cannot | charge with CCS Combo plugs. They won't fit. Since some | Teslas were made before the CCS Combo standard took off, | older Model S/X's used a CCS Type 2 port. So now every | Supercharger in Europe has two plugs: CCS Type 2 & Combo | 2.[3] | | 1. https://teslatap.com/wp- | content/uploads/2020/06/connector_co... | | 2. https://www.notateslaapp.com/images/news/2021/ccs- | adapter.jp... | | 3. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Eu-tesla- | supercharge... | gwbas1c wrote: | > Legislators deciding who gets to be VHS and who has to be | Betamax is bad, actually. | | They didn't make the decision. It's more like legislators | observing that Betamax is failing and deciding that it's in | everyone's best interests to tell Sony that they have to | adopt VHS instead of creating confusion in the marketplace. | | > Tesla's connector is nicer | | Tesla's system only goes up to 400 volts. CCS goes up to 800 | volts. The higher voltage supports faster charging. | | (This is similar to Betamax's critical flaw. The smaller, | more elegant Betamax tape compared to the clunky VHS tape | meant that VHS could record 6 hours on a tape when Betamax | was limited to about 3.5 hours on a tape. It also meant that | feature length films were often recorded at slower tape | speeds, thus meaning that prerecorded VHS tapes were often a | better quality than the Betamax version.) | theluketaylor wrote: | CCS spec limits are actually 1000V and 500A. Electrify | America uses 350A units, hence the 350 kW chargers (1000V x | 350A). Lucid battery packs are 924V to maximize CCS | capability. | | DC Fast charging has to match pack voltage, so with 400ish | volt pack voltage Tesla gets big charging speed by | providing extreme amperage. CCS is limited to 500A, so the | best way to provide really fast charging is higher pack | voltages. | | Higher voltage does have some benefits around heat and | losses, but also has downsides like cost of electronics and | installations over 600V generally require special | electrical licensing. | | It's hard to deny the tesla connector is a lot nicer to | work with (especially V3 with thin, liquid cooled cables), | but I still wish my model 3 sr+ had CCS like euro cars. I'd | love to be able to have more charging options. | jsight wrote: | I'm not sure that Tesla's connector is a limiting element | there. The Tesla system can also go to higher amperages | than CCS, which is an advantage. For example, the F150 | Lightning charging rate is hampered by its 400 volt CCS | system. It can't do more than 200kw. That's creating a lot | of the pressure to move to 800 volt. | | Tesla doesn't have a similar limitation and can do | 250-300kw on the existing 400-450V cars. | jsight wrote: | > Tesla's connector is nicer (you can call that subjective | but it isn't) | | I like the Tesla connector in the US, but in Europe, I'd | argue that CCS2 is objectively superior. They need 3-phase | power support and the Tesla connector doesn't support that. | They also use a different CCS connector from the US. The CCS2 | connector uses a latching mechanism that is similar to the | proprietary Tesla one. Its simple and very reliable. | | The US CCS1 system uses a dual latching mechanism. The cable | and the car each have moving parts that are somewhat | complicated. The cable side latch is a common failure point. | It makes sense, given the desire to retain backward | compatiblity with J1772 L1/L2 chargers, but I don't really | think that was worth the tradeoff, tbh. | dfox wrote: | I would say that the IEC 62196-2 used by Tesla in Europe is | the most sane EV charging connector design there is. It is | standard (albeit in the fast charge mode it is apparently | only used by Tesla), the connector is not ridiculously | large and the whole mechanical design is derived from | industrial power connector that can be used to power entire | typical European household. | mrzool wrote: | A good enough standard that works for everyone > dozens of | cutting-edge amazing technologies competing with each other | and no standardization | malfist wrote: | How is tesla's connector nicer? | bin_bash wrote: | It's a _lot_ smaller, locks into the car while charging, | and doesn't have an extra flap you have to open when using | DC fast charging. | jsight wrote: | The CCS2 standard used in Europe and most of the world | locks the cable similarly to Tesla. | | The CCS1 standard locks the cable using a little flap | that folds down on top of the CCS1 latch to hold it in | place. Its every bit as clumsy as it sounds, but it does | mean there is a locked cable. | | Example CCS1 inlet: http://www.wind- | works.org/cms/index.php?id=84&tx_ttnews%5Btt... | objclxt wrote: | > locks into the car while charging | | The EU plug locks into the car while charging. Not sure | why you think it doesn't. | | There's also no obligation to have an extra flap, my | Model 3 does not. | thinkindie wrote: | I second this. I'm frequently using the volkswagen ID.3 | and there is no way to unplug it unless you unlock it | from charging station with the card you find it in the | car (at least in Berlin). | malfist wrote: | Do those small improvement justify fragmentation of | standards? | amluto wrote: | The locking feature is misguided. There should absolutely | be a mechanical interlock to prevent unplugging under | load. But no key should be required to unplug a home | charger, and no key should be needed to plug in a charger | once the charge port is open. As I see it, the only | security goals should be: | | 1. At a public charger, one should have to authenticate | to _either_ the car or the charger to interrupt an active | charging session. | | 2. When using a portable charger of the sort that is | owned by the car's owner, one should not be able to | unplug the charger and thus steal it if one cannot | authenticate to the car. | | And that's it. You _should_ be able to unplug someone | else from a public charger that can reach multiple | parking spaces once it finishes charging. | IndrekR wrote: | And this is exactly how the charging in EU works. | arlort wrote: | IIRC it doesn't even exclude funny cables as long as the option | remains to use an USB-C cable too | | So if you really want I believe you could issue a double port | | Clunky for smartphones maybe, but should be trivial for larger | devices | mrtksn wrote: | That's also my understanding. | | So Macbook Air 2022 with MagSafe charging will be completely | legal as long as the USB-C can be used for charging. | pooper wrote: | That is good because I think as late as three years ago | there was still at least one "laptop" (possibly more, only | one I have heard of) which were heavy desktop replacement | that required two power bricks during some gaming. | arlort wrote: | For that kind of power draw I think the proposal doesn't | mandate anything anyway | vel0city wrote: | The tech for wireless charging is not really that new and isn't | really changing a large amount. My Nokia 920 uses the same | charging standard as the latest iPhones. iPhones can charge on | the old charger I have, the 920 can charge on an iPhone | charger. That phone came out a decade ago. | qwerty456127 wrote: | > Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens | if better solutions are found. Will EU block innovation? | | The EU has no problem with updating to improved standards. | First there was USB-Mini-B, then USB-Micro-B, now USB-C. I | would expect some different connector to replace it in a about | a decade and 100% wireless in two decades roughly. | rektide wrote: | Mini-B (2000) had serious reliability problems, and would | often damage the device rather than the cable. Micro-B (2007) | was a pretty smart & necessary response. USB-C (2014) | elegantly encompassed the additional high-speed data- | connectivity that the hideous huge SuperSpeed USB Micro-B | (2008) tacked on, & added significant future- | proofing/adaptability (alt-modes). | | I have a hard time imagining much advantage beyond USB-C. | It's pretty mechanically fit & reliable, it has huge | bandwidth (I think DisplayPort alt-modes can do 80Gbps?), it | can transmit 240W in Extended Power Range variants. Someday | perhaps. But I also think this might be here to stay for a | long long time. | gumby wrote: | > Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens | if better solutions are found. | | Didn't the EU previously mandate micro USB A? I believe Apple | included an adapter in the box for all EU SKUs. | | Edit: it was not compulsory: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply | Starlevel001 wrote: | [deleted] | jjcm wrote: | One thing I would love to see here is an end of life for this | ruling. I.e. "effective as of 2024, but not enforced after 2030 | without renewal". Market saturation of the standard alone should | be enough to get alignment on a single connector, following which | it will require significant effort to deviate from it regardless | of legislation. I'm still happy with this in the short term - | very tired of having to juggle two types of charging cables. I | just wish there was a bit of forward thinking involved here. | kaba0 wrote: | That would be indeed a worthwhile addition, though hopefully | the legislation won't kill off a potential better update | without it either. | krageon wrote: | > Market saturation of the standard alone should be enough to | get alignment on a single connector | | Sure, but it's not. So this is not smart. | specialist wrote: | Hoorah! This will accelerate adoption of wireless charging. With | each mfg doing its own thing. | | Lather, rinse, repeat. | kashyapc wrote: | USB-C for laptop power ports seems to be incredibly flaky. :-( | Let me share my ongoing horror story (excuse the verbosity): | | I've got a barely 3-months old Lenovo X1 Carbon (Gen-9) work | laptop. A week ago I noticed the battery _draining_ while the | power cord is plugged in! Nothing worked: reset via the pinhole | at the back, trying out different chargers, BIOS update, charging | while the OS (Linux) is shut down, "to eliminate 'rogue' | applications". The battery just doesn't charge. | | We've got premium support, so a Lenovo technician came two days | later and replaced the motherboard. Great! The root cause: USB-C | power port got short-circuited somehow. "This is a common problem | with USB-C for power ports; I go around replacing 2 motherboards | a week," the technician said. | | Now, the laptop's new motherboard worked fine for a week ... and | I woke up this morning to notice the laptop's battery not | charging at all (yes, _again_!), while the power cord is plugged | in. I call up Lenovo, and the support guy confirms: "the power | port seems to be short-circuited again, this time let's replace | both the motherboard and also the power adapter". FFS, tomorrow | morning I have long-distance travel, and I'm left with this | bloody brick. Speak of timing. | | I want to think this is just plain bad luck, but the Lenovo | support forums are full of similar problems, and two other | colleagues independently confirmed the same issue. The Lenovo | technician blamed this on USB-C. I wish they retained the more | robust rectangular power port; but they're phasing them out to | comply with EU regulation. | helmholtz wrote: | To me, the ideal solution is something that Apple had for ages, | and now them and Microsoft both have. Magsafe. Use a nice, | robust, safe laptop charger for most of your workdays, when | things are routine and you have control over the environment. | Then, if you're going to travel, and need to be ultralight, you | carry your GaN compact, high-power travel power adapter with | USB-C so you have one charger and one cable for all the things. | I don't see why we have to give up magsafe for USB-C when we | can have both. | [deleted] | fuzzybear3965 wrote: | It seems that USB-C for _Lenovo_ laptop power ports seems to be | incredibly flaky. I have 2 year-old HP Spectre x360 and a new | Framework and I've had no problems with charging either of them | from a number of different USB-C cables, wall adapters, and | even a power delivery monitor (Dell U2520D). | oblak wrote: | My wife's Lenovo ultrabook (although an AMD one) has USB-C | charging and we haven't noticed any problem for about 4 years | now. Her phone phone is also USB-C. No visible problems | there, too. | | This thread of full of non-sense | kashyapc wrote: | I thought so too, that this may be Lenovo-specific. But the | Lenovo technician claimed: "this is not Lenovo-specific, it | happens with other laptops too". I just naively took his | word. Good to know that it works reliably with other vendors. | vlovich123 wrote: | I don't think I've ever had a problem with laptop USB-C | chargers. It may happen with other laptops but it's hard to | estimate how big of a problem it is. | riedel wrote: | I have the same problem after a year or so with my Xiaomi Redmi | Note phones (7 and 10). In the end it is sometimes easier to | charge with a USB-A to USB-C cable, because USB-PD signalling | easily breaks if the connector is worn out. I do not understand | why we need more than 2 lines to charge. | | I also have a Lenovo X395 laptop this one has the problem that | the USB-C socket is not deep enough to snap in. I am hoping it | will die before the end of warranty. Because if not, it will | die a week after. | | At least we can keep the chargers as all our devices will die | early because we cannot charge them anymore | kanetw wrote: | Yep. If there's no port protection IC (and even then it might | not catch it), if you unplug the USB-C connector you can | potentially get 20V+ on the data lines. Goodbye data lines. | jackewiehose wrote: | > "this time let's replace both the motherboard and also the | power adapter" [...] | | > I want to think this is just plain bad luck, but the Lenovo | support forums are full of similar problems, and two other | colleagues independently confirmed the same issue | | Oh no, I have to confirm this too. Had the same issue with my | X1 Carbon Gen-9. They replaced the motherboard (and hopefully | the power adapter). At least so far it's still working after a | few months since repair. | | > and I'm left with this bloody brick | | Did you know you can charge (or at least power) the laptop via | the other usb port, next to the power port? I was afraid to try | that out by myself but their support asked me if I can do so | and it worked. | saiya-jin wrote: | I would not blame entire global USB-C standard for issues of | one manufacturer. | | Ie I have company HP laptop with USB-C charging, something | aluminium 'elite', tiny and quite powerful for my needs (not | in same room as me now). It works like charm, and since its | not mine I treat it relatively very badly (no concern for any | kind of protection, travelling on vacations full of sand like | right now, its laying on the floor so kids play with it, bang | on it, I sometimes roll with chair over it etc). | | since its a solid 65w charger it charges my laptop, my phone, | wife's phone, our powerbank, our headlamps, my vaporizer, | both our wireless buds, gopro, camera, and probably some | other stuff. The only stuff it doesnt works on... micro-usb. | | Its really magical, the simplifying life a bit when usual | (annoying) trend is of growing complexity. For once, thank | you EU. | kashyapc wrote: | > Did you know you can charge the laptop via the other usb | port, next to the power port? | | I knew, but would you believe: with the new motherboard, even | that _other_ USB-C port is bricked, it doesn 't charge the | battery either. :-( Speak of one-two punch. | | Thanks for confirming the original issue. I've been a Lenovo | user for 13 years, mostly trouble-free, but this nuisance is | incredibly untimely. I've already put in a request for a new | replacement laptop when I'm back in 3-ish weeks. | agilob wrote: | USB-C is still copyrighted so it's really just forcing customers | to pay for proprietary connectors? | | This also bans cheap phones like these | https://www.androidpolice.com/nokias-newest-android-go-phone... | modo_mario wrote: | I don't think there's any licensing fees for the spec itself | no? Only a small fee to the USB-IF non profit every year or 2 | years (and there's sublicensers) for the logo and vendor id | which shows spec compliance (Which is the same for micro USB I | believe so i can't think of any non proprietary connectors | customers would go for regardless.) | | >This also bans cheap phones like these | | I'd assume those new phones get a new iteration or 2 or 3 by | that time regardless. It tends to go quite fast in the phone | market. | lights0123 wrote: | What do you mean? USB-C is covered by the same trademark | licensing scheme (that isn't technically needed if you don't | use the USB logo and use your chip's default vendor ID) as | USB-A is, a $6000 one-time + $5000/year payment to USB-IF. | warmwaffles wrote: | Is this really that surprising? | bearjaws wrote: | You only need to pay for the logo & trademark usage, not the | port. | | Even if you do pay, at $3500 for 2 years, spread across | millions of devices, this amounts to pennies. | orangepanda wrote: | Oh I hope iPhone 8 will support iOs 17. Would be less than nice | upgrading a year too early and being stuck on lighting for the | next 7 years. | rattlesnakedave wrote: | Not a fan of this. I really like lightning. What happens when we | have a new USB or connector standard? | baisq wrote: | No more innovation: USB-C or else. | Youden wrote: | What innovations are ruled out by mandatory use of the USB-C | connector? It supports more power and data than a mobile device | is ever really likely to need. | | All that's left is the physical form factor and I'm not sure | there's a lot of room for improvement there, especially enough | to justify the tons of electronic waste. | pmontra wrote: | I try to be devil's advocate with a sci-fi bullshit: a five | seconds supercharger with a laser over a fiber optic cable | (to keep the beam confined and not to burn stuff.) | [deleted] | bratbag wrote: | It's not restricting to only USB-C. You can go beyond that with | new innovations, but you need to maintain compatibly with it. | rbanffy wrote: | No more e-waste as well. And, as the regulation moved from | micro USB to USB-C, it's clear that innovation is still | possible, within regulations. That's also why you can't have | jet-engine powered cars on the streets. | frizlab wrote: | Except for the millions of lightning cable already in prod? | Adraghast wrote: | No worries, there are also millions of iPhones with | Lightning ports for them to be used with. (: | withinboredom wrote: | We have 5 apple devices and 3 lightning cables remaining. I | have some 18-20 usb-c cables lying around. | lm28469 wrote: | So no more innovation either ? if we can't move out of | existing tech because they're still in production | frizlab wrote: | It wasn't needed. There are no benefits of usb-c over | lightning for the usage it has. It's not an evolution | it's a change. | lm28469 wrote: | It's a long term plan for a universal system. The benefit | is very clear, just a few days ago a friend asked to | charge his iphone at my place, I don't own lightning | cables, everybody owns ubs-c cables | petre wrote: | At least I won't have the problem of trying to plug a | lightning cable into my USB-C phone in the dark. | kalleboo wrote: | They sell 1 TB iPhones that shoot 4K ProRes video. It | also has terrible quality when used for video out | connecting to a TV for e.g. a presentation. Lightning is | wholly inadequate for modern devices. | | There's a reason they've transitioned most of the iPads | to USB-C. | Nextgrid wrote: | It seems like all that's mandated is that a USB-C charger would | be compatible. You can still run a proprietary protocol on top | of it if you wanted or use a hybrid, proprietary connector as | long as a standard USB-C charger would still work. | midasuni wrote: | I'd have preferred the requirement to be something that can be | implemented with no parents or other controls. Invent lightning | v2, great, you can use it as soon as the requirements for | competitors to implement it are lodged in the appropriate place. | badpun wrote: | I wonder if nowadays it's really that much of a problem though. | Modern cellphone chargers are mostly transformers with an USB 2 | socket. So, even if you have an iphone and an usb-c decice, you | only need to have two cables with an usb 2 connector and not full | two chargers. | kanetw wrote: | As a user, I liked USB-C. Until I had to implement this | ridiculously overcomplicated garbage. | | To be spec-conform, you need at least 1 IC. You can theoretically | hack a solution together with some resistors, but it's not spec | conform. If you the high-speed lanes, add a mux/redriver to un- | flip it. | | If you want power delivery (>15W), you need a PD controller and | port protection (or a user will fry your data lines when they | unplug the connector and put 20V on the data pins). 2 ICs right | there, and one of them is basically a microcontroller, so you | need to deal with more programming. | | If you want alternate mode, you need to implement the entire PD | stack and a redriver/mux. That's 2-3 ICs right there that have to | work together (so usually a single vendor). And not all of them | support alt mode. | | Which, ok, fine. I'm not building a cost optimized product, I | just want it to work well. Except literally none of the ICs are | available. Because USB-C requires ICs for everything, it's all | sold out (or total garbage that's not worth designing into a | product, or requires vendor support to design the firmware, or or | or). | aristofun wrote: | We need to create some "Reasonable & smart people against | stupidity & politics" global comitee. | | We need to stop allowing stupid but loudly screaming minority to | make bad decisions. | | First this idiotic cookie warning on each goddamn page, now this. | Another small step to totalitarianism. | ubermonkey wrote: | It's just really not clear to me that regulators need to be | mandating product design. | | I have no expectation, for example, that these same regulators | will stay on top of this and revise it when USB-C stops being the | preferred or best choice. | | Twenty years ago, we really DID have a snarl of competing and | proprietary phone ports. It was a mess -- Blackberry chargers | didn't work with Palm; most WinMo devices had their own ports; | etc. It was ugly. | | Now, pretty much everything is either USB or Lightning. This is | good! What problem is the EU solving here? | dhzhzjsbevs wrote: | Apples racketeering and monopolistic behavior? | | I think this is a step over the line for regulators but so is | apples behavior for the last decade or two when it comes to | repairability. | | Fuck em. | ubermonkey wrote: | HN loves to describe Apple as a monopoly, but it really only | shows that HN readers don't know the definition of | "monopoly." | rootusrootus wrote: | > Apples racketeering and monopolistic behavior? | | That's a bit over the top, don't you think? When Apple | created the Lightning connector, the accepted alternative was | micro-USB. And micro-USB is _terrible, awful, no-good, crap_. | Many millions of people are happy Lightning existed to bridge | the time before the rest of the world could design a slightly | better small USB connector. Which, of course, might still not | be as durable as Lightning, but it 's good enough. | bni wrote: | Are you telling me there has been other "USB" cables | before? No, USB-C came down from the heavens in the dawn of | time and evil Apple has been using their evil proprietary | lighting all this time, just out of spite to anger Android | fanboys. | simion314 wrote: | Apple could have at least attempted to standardize his | port, but they did not because they charged money when a | third pary uses their proprietary ports. So stop crying for | poor Apple, they have paid PR people to defend them with | better arguments anyway. | rootusrootus wrote: | How often does the world willingly standardize on | something invented by a single company? Even if they had | released it into public domain, USB-C was going to happen | anyway. | simion314 wrote: | The chance is larger the Zero, we can't even think of | standardizing something if is proprietary and we have to | pay some corporation outside our jurisdiction a lot of | money. So Apple did not even try, as usual they tried to | milk things as long as possible exactly how they done it | with dating apps in some EU countries. | zaarn wrote: | You forget that everything now being USB or Lightning is in | part due to the EU attempting to harmonize the market on USB | before today. All the larger market leaders signed an agreement | to move to USB, which Apple understood as "USB at the charger" | apparently. | | But the EU pushing this for the past decades is responsible for | almost everything being interoperable. | samatman wrote: | zaarn wrote: | That would be believable except Apple has been fighting the | EU for years now over not implementing USB at all. Sure the | charger has USB, but the phones they've release the last | decade don't have a USB port themselves. Even when the | industry leaders signed their agreements, Apple had to be | the butt. I don't see how them shipping USB chargers with | proprietary adapters at some point helps their case here. | Apple didn't standardize anything at all here. | eole666 wrote: | Apple who also has a recent history of being, since many | years, the only company not selling phone and tablets with | standard microUSB/USB-C port... | | I hope this regulation will finally kill their lightning | port. | horsawlarway wrote: | This always gets bought up, and it's always wrong. | | > I have no expectation, for example, that these same | regulators will stay on top of this and revise it when USB-C | stops being the preferred or best choice. | | They didn't write the law as "you must use USB-C" They wrote | the law as "The industry experts need to pick A standard for | charging, and all manufacturers should respect that choice" | | They are welcome to change it going forward, they just have to | agree and consolidate. | peyton wrote: | Where? The directive's annex 1a very clearly states "USB | Type-C receptacle, as described in the standard EN IEC | 62680-1-3:2021." | | https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/46755 | andrewla wrote: | This is not correct so far as I can tell -- the amendment to | directive 2014/53/EU [1] says | | > Hand-held mobile phones, tablets, digital cameras, | headphones, headsets, handheld videogame consoles and | portable speakers, in so far as they are capable of being | recharged via wired charging, shall: | | > (a) be equipped with the USB Type-C receptacle, as | described in the standard EN IEC 62680-1-3:2021 'Universal | serial bus interfaces for data and power - Part 1-3: Common | components - USB Type-C TM Cable and Connector | Specification', which should remain accessible and | operational at all times; | | To switch to a new charger type would require legislative | action, not just industry experts changing their mind. That | said, I actually strongly prefer this approach to allowing an | industry self-regulating group to make these decision. | | [1] https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/46755/attachments | /4/... | mmastrac wrote: | https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/QANDA | _... | | "Any technological developments in wired charging can be | reflected in a timely adjustment of technical requirements/ | specific standards under the Radio Equipment Directive. | This would ensure that the technology used is not | outdated." | | "At the same time, the implementation of any new standards | in further revisions of Radio Equipment Directive would | need to be developed in a harmonised manner, respecting the | objectives of full interoperability. Industry is therefore | expected to continue the work already undertaken on the | standardised interface, led by the USB-IF organisation, in | view of developing new interoperable, open and non- | controversial solutions." | andrewla wrote: | I don't see how this is relevant -- this is a statement | of principle. The fact remains that to update the | standard, the "timely adjustment" would be made by the | legislative body. Don't let the passive voice fool you | here; this is not some dynamic industry-led process, it's | just a non-binding commitment to update the regulations | if the technology advances. | horsawlarway wrote: | Interesting, I may be out of date then. Previously all the | RED proposals called for a common charger, but did not | directly specify the charger required. | | It seems like wireless charging still falls into that | category (they require some form of interoperability by | 2026, but do not state the exact form). | bestouff wrote: | Well they asked everyone to agree on a standard 10 years | ago, but that didn't happen (just because of Apple). So now | they forcefully decided. | morcheeba wrote: | Yep. Apple came out with their own connector because USB | Mini (where everyone else wanted to go) sucked. We got a | robust, flippable connector. All in all, using only two | kinds of connectors over 14 years (so far) seems far | better than the industry average (proprietary, mini, | micro, C) | trasz wrote: | 10 years ago USB 3 wasn't really a thing yet, and so it | would be a significant downgrade compared to Lightning. | mmastrac wrote: | This is the truth of the matter. Apple has been dragging | their feet on switching away from lightning. | | Why? No idea. It's a much slower standard, and puts the | wearing parts in the port instead of the cable. USB-C is | designed by committee, sure, but the port itself is | better than lightning in nearly every consumer metric | there is. | thebean11 wrote: | Isn't USBC more fragile because of the middle piece that | lives in the port? Lightning has always felt sturdier to | me, though not enough to warrant carrying different types | of cables.. | vvatermelone wrote: | The middle piece is thin and does look fragile, but you | can't put any real side load on it. The outer wall of the | connector takes that force before you can put any real | force on the middle. Unless you're jamming a flathead | screwdriver or something in it. | | Beyond that, the springloaded contacts are on the cable | end with type-c, with lightning it's inside the phone. I | don't think it's a particularly common failure mode, but | having less moving parts in the expensive bit is | generally a good idea. | monocasa wrote: | Apple gets a patent license fee on every lightning cord. | If they switch to a standard they didn't patent, they | lose a revenue stream. | tradertef wrote: | That is one of the reasons for Apple. Another one is to | be able to sell their own cables to consumers at a | premium price. | dreamcompiler wrote: | Apple has repeatedly said their phones are so thin that | they don't have room for a USB-C port. This of course is | total bullshit because many phones as thin or thinner | than iPhones have USB-C ports. | pwinnski wrote: | USB-C is perfectly fine, and I'm happy to switch, but | let's not go overboard. Lightning is still arguably | better than USB-C. | | USB-C exists because Apple was in the process of creating | Lightning. Also, in my experience, you seem to have the | fragility point backward: the nub on lightning _cables_ | may break, but the port is fine, while the reverse is | true for USB-C, where the fragile bit is in the port. | peeters wrote: | > They are welcome to change it going forward, they just have | to agree and consolidate. | | That's not how innovation works. What motivation would they | have to change it if all your competitors will change it | step? This only hurts consumers. | horsawlarway wrote: | I think this is a pretty bad take. | | Not all that many companies are doing work for cable | standards to begin with, and personally - as a consumer - I | very much welcome the standardization on usb-c. | | The companies that _are_ doing work on communication | standards aren 't normally selling the kind of devices | covered here to consumers. It's more business to business | and military applications. Further, charging in particular | is a different beast than communication in general - you're | not doing anything other than sending current down the line | to fill a battery. there's only so many ways to do that, | and I think it makes sense to consolidate them. | | Finally - the requirement only states that the device must | include a usb-c port for charging. It makes no limitations | on manufacturers including additional ports. So even if a | direct to consumer device wanted to include a new port - | they absolutely could, they just still have to allow | filling the battery from usb-c. | scarface74 wrote: | If you as a consumer prefer USB-C, buy a phone using | USB-C. Why have the government involved? | pixl97 wrote: | I hate to be snarky on HN, but are we from the same | planet? | | In the vast majority of devices you accept what the | manufacture gives you or you are out of luck, especially | when everything these days is protected by some kind of | intellectual property. | | This excuse is old and tired and tends to ignore that | large manufactures purposefully make the customer | experience worse for higher profits. | scarface74 wrote: | Yes and their plenty of phone manufactures that give you | a choice of buying phones with USB-C. | yladiz wrote: | And plenty don't. | sokoloff wrote: | A: "I want to buy a phone with USB-C charging." | | B: "You should buy a phone with USB-C charging." | | A: "But I don't want anyone else to be able to buy a | phone that doesn't have USB-C charging." | | B: "You should petition the government to make that | illegal, I guess." | scarface74 wrote: | stale2002 wrote: | Or instead of that, people could use their legal and | democratic rights to enforce a standardization. | | If you don't like it, feel free to vote for something | different. But apparently the people in the EU disagree | with you, and believe that the world would be better off | if they enforced a standard. | | > Do you really need the government to make your choices | for you? | | A user does not have a choice to use USB-C with certain | devices right now. That is why there is a law, that now | allows users to choose that. | | If Apple doesn't like it, then I guess they can of their | own free choice, choose to leave the EU. | | They do not own the EU. They can take the deal, follow | the law, or shut down in the EU. Thats their choice to | sell to that market. | scarface74 wrote: | A user is free to use a device with USB-C right now. A | user is also not free to buy an iPhone that runs Android. | Should the government also force all phones to support | Android? | | I'm also not free to buy an iPhone with pink polka dots. | Should the EU force companies to make that? I want all | cars to support CarPlay. Shouid that be legislated? | | The "people" didn't vote for this. The same lawmakers who | thought that an 11 chapter 99 section law would solve | privacy issues and all it did was force users to deal | with cookie pop ups. | | Yet one company made a 15 line rules change about | tracking (Apple) and the entire ad industry had to do | more to clean up their act and have admitted in their | quarterly reports that it is impacting their business. | peoplefromibiza wrote: | > That's not how innovation works | | Yes, exactly, this is how standardization works. | | Who cares about innovation in charging plugs form factor? | | Innovations should be innovative enough to get around the | plug. | | Light bulbs have been the same for at least 80 years and it | didn't stop innovation. | | Why do people are so scared about things that are only | hypothetical, while this solves a real issue? | ericd wrote: | Light bulb sockets are actually a great example for the | downsides of standardization, because they're super | suboptimal for LED bulbs, and are a large part of the | reason for the transformers on many of the new bulbs | burning out way before their rated lifetime. A better LED | socket would provide better heatsinking/dissipation | opportunities. | | But it was pretty good for many decades. | peoplefromibiza wrote: | How many more LED bulbs have been sold thanks to the fact | that people don't have to replace the socket, just the | bulb? | | Having a retro compatible socket drove the adoption of | more energy efficient bulbs. | ClumsyPilot wrote: | MR16 is a 12V DC standard so it does not need a | transformer, in theory it's much better for LEDs, and yet | we hardly ever see it used even in new builds. | | Every time I rented a place with MR16, like 1/3 of all | sockets in the ceiling were dead, the power supply was | inside the false ceiling and it was not possible to fix | without making a hole. Needless to say lardlord need much | motivating to fix anything. | | Also, it;s not illegal to install random non-standard | bulbs -> my last apartmentblock was built with some | special, great, proprietary and patented LED-spesific | socket. Guess what happened? 15 years on, the lamps | started failing, and the manufacturere dropped production | of anything for that socket! | | Now they need to replace like a thousands light fittings | across the entire block, there is no way to get | replacements. Some of them are in awkward places and will | require a special vehicle to reach. | sokoloff wrote: | If this standardization happened in 1999, would we now | all be walking around with the original [large] USB-B or | DC barrel jacks on our phones? (Those were the | standardized connectors of the day.) | | Do we believe given the track record of a new connector | being introduced more frequently than once every 5 years | just within the USB standardization process, that we've | somehow reached the end of that road in practical terms? | If we've reached the end of the road, by all means we | could standardize and say "you have to use the pinnacle | of USB connector type". | peoplefromibiza wrote: | we have only standardized the need to supply one type of | connector, nothing stops USB from evolving. | | I still use Ethernet at work, it's connected to the | thunderbolt port through an adaptor. | sokoloff wrote: | Is it better if my phone has the mandated- | by-[hypothetical]-1999-law original USB-B and a new- | fangled USB-C? | peoplefromibiza wrote: | Would it have been better if they settled on this? | | https://www.mouser.it/images/qualtek/hd/703W-00_SPL.jpg | | It has been working quite well in many electronic devices | for decades... | | I don't see the usefulness of discussing things that have | not happened. | | Is USB-C bad? | | That's the question you should be interested in. | | "The best is the enemy of the good." | | Saying that choices should never be made because we don't | know what the future brings, is the same of saying that | there's no point in living, because we are all going to | die. | | Of course they did not settle on USB-B in 1999 because | there weren't billions of devices using it and it was | relatively new technology. | | Now it's a de facto standard already. | sokoloff wrote: | > Is USB-C bad? That's the question you should be | interested in. | | Perhaps I'm at least equally interested in "when | something _better_ than USB-C is available, do I think | that should be allowed instead? " | | > Now it's a de facto standard already. | | That's all the more reason to not make it a de jure | standard. | ubermonkey wrote: | >they just have to agree and consolidate. | | It's still not clear that having this be regulated is better. | | We don't have a port problem. We _used_ to have one, but it | went away. It sure LOOKS like Apple will, eventually, | transition away from Lightning on its own anyway. | | So why have regulators weigh in here at all? What's the | point? What value is added? | [deleted] | joenathanone wrote: | >It's just really not clear to me that regulators need to be | mandating product design | | Seat belts, air bags, maximum vehicle weight, maximum vehicle | width... It's a very large part of what they do. | DannyBee wrote: | "I have no expectation, for example, that these same regulators | will stay on top of this and revise it when USB-C stops being | the preferred or best choice." | | Why? Everything is usb or lightning because people complained, | and everyone but apple listened to people. If USB-C is no | longer the best thing, rather than complain to 10 companies, | and hope they all agree, they will complain to regulators, and | hope they agree. | | What precisely is the difference you see? | | The regulators are at least accountable in some sense to the | people, the companies are not. | ubermonkey wrote: | I'm really not away of a lot of Apple people complaining | about Lightning. I mean, I am one, and lightning doesn't | bother me at all and never has. | | I don't see a consumer win here, basically. I see overreach. | DannyBee wrote: | They did complain, greatly, when apple first did it. | scarface74 wrote: | Yes, because regulators are the best people to design | technical products. | DannyBee wrote: | They aren't designing anything, they mandate an overall | requirement - "You must all use the same charge port". | | This is no different than any other customer - they are | just representing the overall customers who would otherwise | not have enough power or voice to achieve what they want. | | Also - if you don't want your industry regulated, maybe | don't make a mess of it? | | Regulators rarely pay attention to things that are working | super-well. | scarface74 wrote: | If this had gone through the first time, we would have | all been stuck with micro usb. | | Customers can choose to buy Android phones. | DannyBee wrote: | No, acutally, you would not have. You would have been | stuck with a standard until they changed the standard. | Which ... you are in the same boat now? | | Beyond that, this is the magical free market will fix | everything. Despite all evidence to the contrary. | scarface74 wrote: | So now we would have to wait years for lawmakers to | approve the new standard? | | Yes, you are very free to choose an Android phone with | USB-C if that's what you want - just like over 65% of the | EU does. | RandomWorker wrote: | That was the whole point of USB --- it's in the name Universal | Serial Bus. | | We have to talk about the ewaste issue, which is massive score | on the earth. The particular village in China where all our | waste get recycled is just a horrible scene. | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_waste_in_Guiyu | | This is a small step, but standardization is a great thing | towards less waste. | mikkergp wrote: | Won't this increase waste as lightning is deprecated? | cowtools wrote: | temporarily | mikkergp wrote: | Yeah but then there will be a new standard, I have to | imagine waste is not the primary thing they are | optimizing for here. | ThatPlayer wrote: | Sure, but better now than in 5 or 10 years when there's | more lightning cables out in the wild. Otherwise should we | still be using lightning in 100 years? | scarface74 wrote: | https://learn.adafruit.com/understanding-usb-type-c-cable- | ty... | | And we have always been at war with EastAsia. | criddell wrote: | USB is universal, but there are so many variations that it's | not very clear. | | Does the EU mandate say _which_ USB-C modes and variations | have to be supported? | davoneus wrote: | Too many get caught up in the "USB-C" connector, and forget | about the modes and power delivery. That said, AFAICT the | May 2022 revision states (pg 6): | | "the devices should incorporate the USB Power Delivery (USB | PD) standard (as described in the European standard EN IEC | 62680-1-2:2021) and ensure that any additional charging | protocols allow for full USB PD functionality (new annex | Ia, part I)." | | Then the referenced: "EN IEC 62680-1-2:2021" standard | specifies | | "To facilitate optimum charging, the specification defines | two mechanisms a USB Charger can advertise for the Device | to use: 1. A list of fixed voltages each with a maximum | current. 2. A list of programmable voltage ranges each with | a maximum current (PPS). The Device requests a voltage (in | 20 mV increments) that is within the advertised range and a | maximum current." | | But those regs get over my head quickly, so someone else | may have better luck interpreting them. | criddell wrote: | This brings up an issue that Carl Malamud at | public.resource.org has been fighting. The EU directive | references a standard that costs $300 if you want a copy. | You shouldn't have to pay to know your laws. | | If the EU is going to reference a standard owned by | somebody else, they should purchase a license that allows | them to publicly post the entire standard (AFAIK, they | haven't done that). Or they could pass laws that say any | standards referenced by law lose their copyright status. | This would be a type of eminent domain for intellectual | property. | krzyk wrote: | > Now, pretty much everything is either USB or Lightning. This | is good! What problem is the EU solving here? | | It makes charging more user friendly. e.g. just an hour ago my | wife asked if she can charge her iPhone with the charger that I | use for my laptop and Pixel 4. I had to say "no" - and that's | the case even when Apple has USB-C in their laptops, why the | odd iPhone (and airpods)? | | It is quite pleasing to be able to charge laptop and mobile | (and wireless headphones or ebooks) with the same charger. | manuelabeledo wrote: | > It's just really not clear to me that regulators need to be | mandating product design. | | Is not design per se, but essential functionality. Radio is | also regulated. | | And this happens in many other industries as well, see cars and | all the mandatory devices included in them. | danielfoster wrote: | This is absolutely correct. I think the EU could have used its | time and money focusing on more important problems. | | The new legislation is the type of feel-good lawmaking that | sounds good on paper but has no real impact on society. | vidarh wrote: | The EU threatening manufacturers with regulation unless they | settled on a format led to the end of different chargers for | every phone model. It definitely had a direct impact on my | life. Getting rid of different cables as well will make me | very happy. | | "The EU" is not a singular entity. The _tiny little parts_ of | the EU doing most of the work on this combined with the _tiny | amount of time_ spent by larger parts of the EU seems well | worth it to me. | yummybear wrote: | They will "periodically" check if there are better standards. | The USB-C will only be fully introduced by 2027. I think it's | probable that at least as soon as they're fully introduced we | need a new standard. | samatman wrote: | modo_mario wrote: | Are standardised wall sockets planned economy? Charging | ports for cars? This has been a push for more than a decade | now and the reason everyone aside from apple converges | because of the brussels effect. From my perspective it has | been great. | | The alternative isn't just plain competitive designs. It's | also anticompetitive practices. | npteljes wrote: | It's bleak either way. If we don't regulate enough, | companies will eat us alive, and if we overregulate, then | the government will do the same. We're better off with some | kind of balance between these two, and mandating the | charging port like this worked out well so far in my | opinion, and so, I welcome the upgrade too. | 908B64B197 wrote: | > What problem is the EU solving here? | | This isn't about solving an existing problem. As you pointed | out, pretty much everyone standardized around micro-usb almost | a decade ago. That's mostly because Apple launched the iPhone | with a proprietary but standard connector (the original iPod | connector). So while all other phone makers had a special | adapter and cable for every model, you could plug an iPhone on | anything that worked with an iPod. Even the original firewire | cable from 2003 would work with it. | | What this is about is getting reelected and justifying to | voters the usefulness of paying huge amounts of taxes to fund | an EU-wide parliament. So they manufactured an (easy) problem | to "fix". And it's going to be extremely popular since they'll | be attacking and regulating "evil foreign tech giants". | tokamak-teapot wrote: | I'm not sure they are clear what they are solving. The | statement says: | | "European consumers were frustrated long with multiple chargers | piling up with every new device" | | This was solved by companies no longer providing chargers with | new devices. When you buy a new phone, you use your existing | charger, only buying a new one when you actually need it. | | If you buy a new iPhone, you get a cable that plugs into a | USB-C charger. | | If USB-C is mandated on the phone end: * I'll | spend the next 20 years realising I have the wrong white phone | charging cable with me * I still won't trust random | USB-C cables * I still won't trust random USB-C | chargers | | But - let's just do it. Maybe in 40 years it'll have seemed | worth it. | peoplefromibiza wrote: | > If USB-C is mandated on the phone end: | | ever heard of adaptors? | | apple loves them and loves charging 29 dollars for them! | mmastrac wrote: | > I'll spend the next 20 years realising I have the wrong | white phone charging cable with me | | > I still won't trust random USB-C cables | | > I still won't trust random USB-C chargers | | My answer to all three of these is the same: Why? My phone | charges with every crappy USB cable and charger. Heck, my | laptop will trickle charge [!] off a crappy cable on a crappy | airline USB-C port. | | There's one place where I'm very careful about USB-C: keeping | the specific USB-C cables with my laptop with the chargers | themselves, just in case I need the Thunderbolt capability. | The TB monitor I bought has a specific cable that stays | attached to it. | | From looking on AliExpress the last few weeks, TB 100W cables | appear to be getting commoditized. It's likely this worry I | have about keeping laptop C cables straight won't be a big | issue for much longer. | | [!] Amusingly, my laptop won't actually charge off the | _standard_ A/C plugs on most airplanes because the 100W | charger blows a soft fuse that requires unplugging and | replugging the A/C adapter! | nybble41 wrote: | > [!] Amusingly, my laptop won't actually charge off the | _standard_ A/C plugs on most airplanes because the 100W | charger blows a soft fuse that requires unplugging and | replugging the A/C adapter! | | To be fair, 100 W may not seem like a lot when you're used | to plugging in to the national power grid, but it's a lot | to ask for a non-essential system supplied by an off-grid | generator shared by hundreds of passengers. And 100 W is | the _maximum_ allowance for In-Seat Power Support Systems | according to the FAA, before any conversion losses in your | power adapter; the actual amount available to you may be | much less. | mmastrac wrote: | Oh yeah, that's totally fair. With a standard USB-C DC | plug, however, the charger could negotiate a lower | current and even provide power fairness across all seats | to support the entire plane's load. | | My point was really that even the most entrenched | "standards" are all just leaky abstractions. | tokamak-teapot wrote: | I'll have the wrong cable with me because I'm just bad at | having the right stuff with me anyway. Adding to my | confusion is fine though. I'll just buy particular colours | or cable or put tags of them or something. | | I don't trust random cables to plug into my phone because | I'm paranoid about getting hacked. I access some systems | with sensitive data via my phone and I don't want to be the | route of compromise. | | I don't trust random chargers not to set my house on fire | while I sleep, or - worse - fail to charge properly and I | don't have enough charge left to run the crossword app on | my phone. | tasn wrote: | They already do, in many ways. Specifically, they already | mandate the type of power plug that electrical appliances must | be sold with. | | I don't know where I stand on this ruling philosophically, but | I'm looking forward to having accessories all use USB-C instead | of having some for Apple and some for everyone else. | Hamcha wrote: | It's not a new thing. Car design has been dictated by | regulations for decades and while I'm sure it has definitely | stopped some novel designs from getting out there, I think we | can be mostly thankful that we don't live in a sea of | heterogeneous (let alone hazardous) designs. Cars can still | look cool, but not to the point of being a detriment. | | USB-C is a pretty lax standard (for good and bad) and at the | end of the day, the ultimate reason regulators have to come | into play is that the industry didn't deal with this issue | internally. | MrBuddyCasino wrote: | > Cars can still look cool | | compare cars from 40s-70s to what came after, its a different | world | | you can argue it was worth it, but you can't argue cars | didn't get homogeneous and boring in the process | peoplefromibiza wrote: | > compare cars from 40s-70s to what came after, its a | different world | | Yeah. we understood that they not only pollute the | environment and it's stupid to build cars the size of a | starship, but also by 1973 the World (except the US) | understood that oil is not for granted and fuel efficiency | should be a thing. | | Also safety while we are at it, doesn't sound so bad... | pixl97 wrote: | Being that my modern car drives nearly 10 thousand miles | before each oil change, gets at least 4x the gas mileage, | easily drives over 200k miles before major maintenance, and | won't turn me into hamburger if I get in a crash, I will | argue its well worth it. | Hamcha wrote: | You need to distinguish design trends from what the | regulation enforced. | | The most obvious examples that come to mind: | | - Small cars aren't that small anymore to stop them from | being blatant death traps. | | - A lot of the edges have been smoothed and curved to make | impact with pedestrians less deadly (also killed pop-up | lights and hood ornaments, which is kinda funny considering | the Mercedes Benz hood ornament was sometimes jokingly | described as a sight to aim for pedestrians) | | - Thick A pillars due to crash tests regulations | | While I can blame these for killing out novel or even | trademark features of some vehicles lineups, I don't think | alone they made everyone homogenize their design, it's just | what the industry eventually converged on by themselves. | | Look at phones, there's no regulation on what a phone | should look like, yet today phones are just a fancy screen, | nothing like the incredible variety that Nokia alone | sported back in the late 90s/early 2000s. | themitigating wrote: | Cars within a particular period mostly have the same | overall design just like today. There will always be | exceptions of course, however take a look at some models | from 1966 (Ad heavy site, sorry) | | https://www.ranker.com/list/list-of-all-cars-made- | in-1966/re... | | I feel like you see one car from 1966 then notice how most | cars today are similar, and use that difference. | vel0city wrote: | A 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 had a wheelbase of 119" and was | 210" long. | | A 2021 Mustang Mach E has a wheelbase of 107" and is 188.5" | long. | | Which one is humongous? | | Even if you looked at the original 1964 Mustang, its not | _that_ much smaller than the Mach E which is a 5-door | crossover. The '64 had a wheelbase of 108" and an overall | length of 181.6", just 7 inches shorter for a coupe. | | Older American cars were often land yachts. The old family | sedan of the 1960s are often larger than crossovers of | today, they just don't sit as high. | pwinnski wrote: | The word was homogeneous, which means "of the same kind." | vel0city wrote: | Oof, I really misread that one. | seydor wrote: | > USB or Lightning | | This problem | rootusrootus wrote: | Eh, Apple was moving devices over to USB-C already, they | didn't need to be forced. The reason they've held out on the | iPhone is because users will complain about new cables ;-). | Either way they're going to get criticized. | | Apple gets credit for creating Lightning to begin with while | we waited for something better than micro-USB to come along. | I'm glad for USB-C, but damn, it sure took a while. | MikusR wrote: | Apple gets paid when other companies make lightning | products. | rootusrootus wrote: | But they get paid quite a lot more when people pay | thousands of dollars to buy their hardware. | iakov wrote: | Let's be honest here, the only reason why they "held out" | is the MFi program and the sweet sweet money they receive | for it. I'm happy to see EU put a stop to this practice. | rootusrootus wrote: | Unless you have numbers to back it up, their MFi revenue | is peanuts compared to the metric shitload of money they | make directly from their customers blowing a grand or | more on a phone. I guarantee they prioritize customer | satisfaction way, way above MFi revenue. | jonwinstanley wrote: | Exactly. So silly. | | Plus Apple Watches have always been only charged via | conductive, so it's likely phones could have gone that way too | within a short space of time if the lack of a data cable was | deemed acceptable. | jonwinstanley wrote: | Actually, if they go wireless then they don't need to have | USB-C. | | Only devices charged by cable need to have USB-C. | doikor wrote: | Even devices that charge with a cable do not need USB-C if | they are too small to physically fit a USB-C port. Though | at that point they wont fit a Lightning port either but | instead some weird exposed charging pins or wireless | charging. | rootusrootus wrote: | I routinely charge my iPhone on a wireless charger. When I'm | in a hurry, I plug it in. I don't want that option taken | away, wireless is nowhere near fast enough yet. | mikkergp wrote: | I've also found wireless charging to be inconsistent at | best, especially with a case. Half the time I come back and | I didn't place my phone in exactly the right place. Maybe | it's the quality of my chargers, but until I can buy a | random charger on Amazon and assume it to be as reliable as | an equivalent cable, I don't think we can give up the | cables.(fwiw my current charger is name brand) | pwinnski wrote: | This is why the last couple of generations of iPhones | have supported "magsafe" charging, so the magnets line | things up every time. Amazon has plenty of "magsafe" | chargers for iPhones. | | To be clear, wireless charging with "magsafe" is still | slower than using a cable. | agloeregrets wrote: | I would highly prefer the watch didn't charge that way; it | takes FOREVER. | ubermonkey wrote: | That's not my experience. I'd check cables and ports and | see if there's something you can adjust. My watch charges | pretty quickly. | morsch wrote: | Maybe, but I wouldn't hold my breath. The fastest charging | Android phones charge at >100 W, while wireless charging is | currently at 10-15 W. | dingleberry420 wrote: | > What problem is the EU solving here? | | Everything works together, except Apple stuff. | scarface74 wrote: | Are they also going to insist that Android manufactures | support their phones for more than six months with operating | system updates? Worrying about cables causing e-waste is | instead of phones, is even more evidence of the technical | ineptness of legislators. | layer8 wrote: | > Are they also going to insist that Android manufactures | support their phones for more than six months with | operating system updates? | | Yes they are, with a directive from 2019. See for example | https://grunecker.de/blog/sales-of-goods-directive-and- | digit..., search for "Update Obligations". | scarface74 wrote: | I don't speak German. But the best summary I found | doesn't say that manufacturers have to support cell | phones for 7 years with operating system or security | updates like Apple has been doing. | mikkergp wrote: | What does work together mean in this case, it's not like | we're talking Ethernet where these devices are communicating | to each other. Like I can't use an android charger? Lightning | to usb-c cables are pretty much standard. It seems like in | the short term anyways this increases e-waste as all my old | Lightning chargers become deprecated. | dingleberry420 wrote: | The other day a coworker's iphone battery was nearly empty. | He did not have his charger with me. I offered that he | could use mine, an usbc charger that has worked for my past | 3 phones and also works with my laptop. | | He couldn't use it. | | Of course, not being an iphone user, I did not have an | adapter. Neither did he, considering he forgot his charger. | | The iphone and the usbc charger did not work together. | pwinnski wrote: | This story would make more sense if you mentioned that he | did not have a lightning cable with him. My iPhone X is | currently plugged into a USB-C charger, no problem, but | it's using a USB-C -> Lightning cable. | | It's the cable that's the issue. | cowtools wrote: | I can just plug a usb-c dock and use my android phone with | a keyboard and mouse if I wanted to. I could plug two | android phones together with usb-c and transfer files from | one to another. | | Apple's phones are quite locked down, and I think a big | reason why is that proprietary lightning connector. When | you have a usb port for charging, there is no excuse for | not implementing the full standard software-side. | pwinnski wrote: | There is zero chance that an iPhone with a USB-C port is | going to allow phone-to-phone file transfer. You have the | cause and effect reversed. | frizlab wrote: | As an European, I'm so mad at this law. | messe wrote: | Why? | frizlab wrote: | Lightning is a far superior plug than usb-c (don't tell me | about data transfer, I don't care, I care about the | durability and ease of plugging of the plug itself), I have | MANY lightning cables (that I will have to throw away, how is | that good for e-waste?), and in a more general sense the law | basically forbids evolution. I am livid that they'd do | something like that instead of working on actual stuff like | forbidding mining which actually actively harms the | environment, and depletes primary resources for idiotic | reasons. | rbanffy wrote: | > that I will have to throw away, how is that good for | e-waste? | | We are not most people. Most people get yet another | lightning cable with every Apple device when they could | just use the cables we all already have for other devices. | I also have a bunch of lightning cables because each device | came with one, but, at least, they stopped coming with | power bricks. | | > I am livid that they'd do something like that instead of | working on actual stuff like forbidding mining | | This is not an either/or thing. Other groups are working on | doing that without causing supply chain collapses and | crashing economies. It's a very complicated and chaotic | system with tons of interesting emerging behaviors. | rojcyk wrote: | lm28469 wrote: | So Apple should share its proprietary connector (good luck | with that) for free (?) and everyone else should adopt it | (good luck with that too) because _you_ bought a bunch of | cables ? I don't see Samsung and the other big ones | investing in a whole new connector for their entire lineup | to please Europe, whereas apple already has usb-c devices | | They're both equally easy to use, lightning is just slower. | Seems like it's just your personal case, I have 0 lightning | cables and maybe 5 usb-c, it would be equally a waste to | throw them away. | | Also, nothing forbids evolution, usb-c evolved a lot | already, you just have to make it backward compatible. I | haven't bought a usb cable since I got my pixel 3 and | everything works just fine | frizlab wrote: | I never said I wanted lightning enforced though. I'm | talking about evolution of the design of the plug, not | its software specs. | freddex wrote: | Fair enough about your existing cables, but cables would be | thrown away if we enforced Lightning, as well (probably a | lot more, but I have no numbers on that). I don't really | get the arguments of durability and ease of plugging, both | cable types seem very easy to plug. As for durability, that | seems to depend on cable quality and not on the USB C | standard. | | As for evolution/innovation, sure, that's a real downside. | Seems like a quite small price to pay though because it is | just about charging. And if I understand this correctly, | you can still innovate and add Super Charge 3000 to your | device, it just needs to have USB C charging as well, and | you need to be able to opt out of getting yet another | charger with your new device. | | As for working on actual stuff: They can do both - | Regulating mining would be great, but this is also good. | frizlab wrote: | Sadly, they actively refused to work on mining IIRC. I | think it's what's making me the more mad (and sad) | really. They're willing to work on stuff that don't | matter at best/make thing worse depending on PoV (because | in all honesty imposing a specific plug does not matter, | the market had _already_ chosen USB-C), but working on | stuff that would actually do good, that they won't. | galangalalgol wrote: | Apple already moved the ipad and macbook to usb-c charging, | and have stated the iphone after next would be usb-c | anyway. I doubt this changed Apple's plans a bit. In fact, | Apple's decision might have been the driver for the EU to | move on this. | | Anecdotally, while I've had usb-c connectors break off | about as often as lightening ones, the lightening cables | seem to just stop working sometimes, and I've never had | that with even cheap usb-c cables. | jwilk wrote: | Archived copy without GDPR nag screen: | | https://web.archive.org/web/20220607105048/https://www.engad... | DocTomoe wrote: | Coming from the same European Union in which virtually every | single member state has different wall sockets. | | This does not inspire confidence. | maccard wrote: | The problem with USB-C is that you can't just pick up a device | cable and power brick and expect them to work together. As an | example, my Apple 96W USB-C charger doesn't charge my nintendo | switch. The cable that came with my phone doesn't charge said | fully Mac when used with the 96w charger. There is no indication | of incompatibility between these devices until you realise they | don't work. This is going back to the dc jack era where you end | up with these [0] guys with various tips and dials that all meet | the USB-C "standard" for a connector but don't work. | | [0] https://www.amazon.co.uk/EFISH-Multifunctional- | Transformer-2... | jayd16 wrote: | >you can't just pick up a device cable and power brick and | expect them to work together | | I never understood this sentiment. That would be even more true | if USB-C wasn't the standard so I don't really understand the | complaint. Obviously "same shape" isn't an indicator that it | will "just work" for USB-C, so why would we expect that to be | the case for anything else with modern complexity? | | It would be nice if fits == works but that's just not a world | we live in, USB-C or not. | colejohnson66 wrote: | Because USB has always been, "if it fits, it works (possibly | with a driver)". Maybe not explicitly, but it was widely | understood to be that. USB-C, OTOH, with all its modes and | whatnot, make it so I can't tell what my device supports, and | a driver installer won't fix it. | | Basically, things that require extra ICs are now being shoved | into "one connector for all" thing with no way of telling | them apart. | varajelle wrote: | > if it fits, it works | | No, that was already not the case with USB 3 devices not | working when plugged in a USB 1 slot. Not made easy when | some computer or hub have both USB 3 and USB 1 port on the | same machine and you must remember the color code. | | I recall that one time when I tried to configure the bios | of a computer and the keyboard wouldn't work in the bios | because it was connected to the "wrong" usb port that was | not powered in that stage of the boot | 908B64B197 wrote: | Except if you use Lightning. It just works. | pkulak wrote: | Because it's not an open standard any only support low- | power devices. If we gimped USB-C to only support 5 volts, | it would work everywhere too. | AprilArcus wrote: | iPhone fast charging over lightning runs at 9 volts. | ProZsolt wrote: | ... and uses USB-C on the other end of the cable | [deleted] | Aerroon wrote: | The previous chargers did work that way though. | jayd16 wrote: | USB charging usually works unless you care about max watts. | Apple chargers would be different based on the brick. Lots | of barrel chargers were not compatible. | WinstonSmith84 wrote: | Not sure about Nintendo, but my macbook charger is charging | perfectly fine my (Android) smartphone, and I don't even take | my Android charger when traveling (charging at decent pace but | unfortunately not in "very fast" mode). Either way, this is | quite ironic in regard to the so-called Apple ecosystem and | iPhone users still having to carry their own charger in 2022 | jethro_tell wrote: | Well, no, doesn't apple make 1/3 of their money on cables and | dongles? that's like the whole point. It's not some sticky | customer issue that they just can't work out, it's clearly a | straight profit decision and the customer comes last in that | matrix. | thefz wrote: | I've always found that charge works, sometimes it's not as fast | as it can go, but it works. | maccard wrote: | "not as fast as it can go" is selling it short. I have an old | 5w usb charger that I found in my drawer and plugged an A to | C charger from it into my 2016 MacBook Pro, and it "worked" | by some definition of worked - the laptop thinks it's | charging, however it's 19x below what the charger that came | with the device outputs, so it's clearly not fit for purpose. | r00fus wrote: | I have the same issue with my Wahoo Elemnt Bolt v2. It has | USB-C charger, but doesn't work with Apple's USB-C cable or my | M1 30W brick. I need to use the cable that came with the Bolt | (amusing is USB-A -> USB-C). | alkonaut wrote: | Then at least one isn't USB-C? Or the spec isn't good enough? | | The regulation (I hope) is about actually adhering to USB-C, | not merely shipping with USB-C connectors. And the bar to pass | should be to be able to use a large stack of USB-C chargers and | work. | samiru wrote: | > The problem with USB-C is that you can't just pick up a | device cable and power brick and expect them to work together. | | We clearly need more regulation. | maccard wrote: | Indeed, but this isn't the regulation we need unfortunately | varajelle wrote: | We need more color codes and symbols maybe? | maccard wrote: | Honestly I think we need different ports. My laptop can | already draw more power than the charger that came with | it can provide, it's insulting for it to pretend it is | charging when I plug a 5w a to c charger into it. | | Enforcing USB pd as a standard would be another | acceptable one. | stewx wrote: | The issue with the Nintendo Switch is that Nintendo designed | their own faulty USB-C charging implementation rather than | merely using the reference design. It's not a failure of the | spec, it's a failure to adhere to the spec. | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16706803 | mrjin wrote: | It's obviously the failure of the spec. Why cables with | different capabilities have to look exactly the same? Put the | looking aside, I wondering if anyone can tell what's the | exact differences between different specs? USB standards are | already a mass, USB-C just made things 10 times if not 100 | times worse. | jethro_tell wrote: | lol, no they just didn't implement the spec. | Nextgrid wrote: | It's still not a great spec if it's so complex that you can | screw it up. I understand the complexity for data, but for | power I wish it was as simple as power & ground wires and | that's it. | | Compare that with USB-A where even cheap Chinese cables from | the lowest bidder usually work (work well enough at least - | you might get voltage drop but it will still charge if you | leave it on long enough) because the spec is so simple that | even the worst manufacturers manage to do a good enough job, | and it's something you can trivially DIY if you need to. | | Now compare that with USB-C. So many moving parts that can go | wrong and so much corners that can be cut by unscrupulous | manufacturers. Not to mention that even the most expensive | devices (Apple) don't give you any visibility on what type of | cable/charger/etc you have even though that information is | technically available to the device (that's how it negotiates | power delivery) which is extremely confusing even to tech- | savvy people. | vilhelm_s wrote: | USB-C is infamous for being complex like that, but I think | the charging part is basically fine? People talk about the | Nintendo Switch often, but I have never heard any _other_ | example of something where the charging didn't work, so I | think maybe it's a rare exception. | | (This is distinct from the "fast charging" mode(s?), which | does seem to have compatibility problems. But in that case, | the failure mode is that device charges slowly, which is | probably not a big issue for the kind of small | phones/gadgets that the EU regulation targets. The previous | standard was micro-USB, which can't do fast-charging | anyway.) | oneoff786 wrote: | I plugged my switch into my laptop and the switch started | to charge my laptop. I thought it was funny. | bratbag wrote: | Thats a very strange statement to make. | | Should complex things not have a spec? | Nextgrid wrote: | My point is that I don't like USB-C because it tries to | do everything and manufacturer must implement that | "everything" properly which adds cost & frustration. | | Compare USB-C power delivery and the 12-pin cable & | connector with USB-A's 4 pins and a resistor on the data | lines to communicate allowed current draw, or even a | barrel jack with the standard 19V ~3A PSU and no | negotiation at all. Which one is the easiest to build | (hint: one is easy enough to DIY) and which one is more | reliable? | tmhrtly wrote: | Power and ground wires alone don't cut it sadly when you're | dealing with much higher wattages. There needs to be a | level of negotiation between the host and the charger to | decide on a specific power (current & voltage) that both | can support. | | In USB-A this was accomplished through a hodge-podge of | different resistances applied across data lines, not | officially part of the standard but just done by | manufacturers. USB-C is a huge improvement on this. | | I do agree however that the cable-labelling situation is | awful. Maybe some kinda tier system could help. Every | charger, cable and device could have a class. The charging | rate is the lowest of the three. E.g. a "Class 5 cable will | charge up to 200 watts and has a pink end". If you pair | that with a Class 2 charger (say, 50 watts) and a class 3 | laptop (100 watts) you'll be limited to charging your | laptop at 50 watts. | rbanffy wrote: | > I do agree however that the cable-labelling situation | is awful. | | The new rules mention that and aim to fix it by demanding | clear labels. | falcolas wrote: | I'd like to see where the labels are put. It's not like | there's a lot of room on a cable for legible printing. | And any kind of plastic flag wont last. | Aerroon wrote: | You mean the ones on the _packaging_? | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | _> It's still not a great spec if it's so complex that you | can screw it up._ | | People and companies can screw thing up royally regardless | of spec complexity when there's no review/oversight | involved. That's not a valid argument. | | If you want to force and check adherence to a spec you need | to involve certification authorities (TUV, SGS, UL, etc.) | but then widget prices would increase dramatically. | | Edit: to address the child comments below: who gets to be | the judge of the complexity of the spec? If Nintendo fucked | it up but some EE students can get it right through side | projects on github, does that make the spec complex or does | that make Nintendo incompetent (lacks a HW | review/qualification process)? | | The spec could be as simple as _" white wire goes to | positive terminal, black wire goes to negative terminal"_ | and there's still the chance of an implementation fuckup in | the design pipeline, especially in large projects/companies | with distributed siloed teams like Nintendo due to poor | internal communication, if there is no proper internal | review/qualification process in the design loop. | | Edit 2: I looked at the USB-C charging specs and they're | easy enough to understand for any graduate EE and for any | company who's had some basic experience with USB as a | whole, let alone 100 year old multi-billion HW | conglomerates like Nintendo. | | IMHO, Nintendo's USB-C charging fuckup is 100% on them. I | wish people would stop needlessly defending them here. | | Edit 3: Also, what if Nintendo intentionally chose not to | follow the spec in order to force the users to use and buy | only original parts from them? Either way, incompetence or | malice, you really can't blame the spec here. | mrjin wrote: | Just pick a couple of those USB-C docks on the market and | check how many are actually working for you. I used over | 10 different USB-C docks from different vendors. It | doesn't matter which vendor, they all have various | issues. They might be perfectly fine for some machines | but lots lots of troubles for some other machines which | are also perfectly fine with some of the other docks. I | have never seen something worse than that. | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | _> Just pick a couple of those USB-C docks on the market | and check how many are actually working for you._ | | 1) How is it the spec's fault that random OEMs go to | extreme cost cutting measures in order to price dump | themselves to the bottom by not following the spec? Of | course they won't work properly. | | But again, for the 100th time, that's not the specs fault | that manufacturers actively choose to ignore it. | | If a driver chooses to knowingly run a red light, is it | automatically the fault of the spec (the highway code) ? | | 2) You're moving the goalposts. We are talking about | USB-C charging spec here that's super easy to follow, and | Nintendo didn't, not USB-C docs with display-port and | other fluff. So this dock example doesn't apply to | Nintendos' refusal to follow the charging spec. | Spivak wrote: | Looks this isn't that complicated, what people want is | the ability to know that I all conforming USB-C cables | are identical and can be interchanged freely. I don't | give two shits about the devices at the ends not being | able to negotiate or different power bricks charging | faster or slower. | 8ytecoder wrote: | Well, if a spec has no validation procedure, | compatibility enforcement or certification, what's even | the point? If the switch isn't actually working as | intended they shouldn't be allowed to call it usb-c. | There should be some minimum mandatory requirements. I | haven't studied these spec, but if there exists a min | spec to qualify to call yourself USB and the switch case | isn't covered, OR, there's no minimum spec, it IS the | spec's fault. | iainmerrick wrote: | Hmm, maybe the EU could step in and help regulate this | stuff! | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | _> Well, if a spec has no validation procedure, | compatibility enforcement or certification, what's even | the point?_ | | What is the point of anything then? Most pieces of tech | we take for granted are an unregulated bundle of specs | that more or less work together with one another most of | the time well enough to be valued at several trillions | and be in every household. | | If you want to regulate and certify every USB-C cable in | your household then increase prices would stop the | adoption of any such tech and you would then complain | about the costs and over-regulation. | | The EU is already regulating USB-C into place. How much | more regulation do you want? | | Let's not let 'perfect' be the enemy of 'good'. Remember | 20 years ago when every phone and electronic widget in | your house came with its own proprietary cable and | proprietary interface and included CD with proprietary | Windows-only software to work? Yeah! Lost the original | cable/dock with the proprietary 20-pin connector? Good | luck with that mate. | | Yes, USB-C still has teething problems due to | manufacturers cutting costs and fighting tooth and nail | against standardization so they can keep their walled | garden rent seeking models of the past (remember Sony | shoving their proprietary Memory-Stick everywhere despite | SD cards having won?), but despite these issues, we've | never had it so good in terms of cross-compatibility as | we have it today and this push for USB-C everything is a | step in the right direction. | colejohnson66 wrote: | The USB consortium seemingly refuses to do anything that | would hamper adoption, even if it's bad for consumers. | They could make a list of icons that products can put on | if they support. So a cable that supports 15W charging | would indicate it with a little icon on the product or | packaging. Then mandate a testing procedure, where | failure to follow it or lying about the results is | trademark infringement. | adrr wrote: | Issue I had with docks is that I was using the wrong | cable. You need a thunderbolt cable that can support | higher wattage. | remus wrote: | I think it's a reasonable point. A more complex spec is | going to be harder to implement correctly. | falcolas wrote: | And more expensive to boot. | rhn_mk1 wrote: | It is a valid argument because the more complicated the | spec, the easier to mess up the implementation. | RF_Savage wrote: | Wasn't USB-C power delivery spec 600pages long on | release? | | And now with the addition of the 48volt high power | charging mode it is even longer with more requirements. | kaba0 wrote: | Do you have any reason to believe that they "screwed up" | due to a spec being complex, over much more likely | explanations like.. they simply didn't want to follow the | spec? | throw0101a wrote: | > _I understand the complexity for data, but for power I | wish it was as simple as power & ground wires and that's | it._ | | The minimum requirements are that you have to support the | USB 2.0 protocol: | | > _While BC1.2 is still supported over USB Type-C because | it depends on the USB2.0 lane, a significantly simplified | and higher power current capability mechanism is also | implemented. This simplified approach involves resistor | pull-down / pull-up relationships. These pull-down/pull-up | resistors are connected to the CC wire and the upstream | facing port (UFP) must monitor the voltage on the CC1 and | CC2 pins in order to detect the current sourcing capability | of the down- stream facing port (DFP) it is connected to. | This is a substantial improvement over the complicated | handshake mech- anisms involved with USB BC1.2._ | | > _The basic USB Type-C current capabilities are Default | USB (500mA for USB2.0 and 900mA for USB3.0), 1.5A@5V, and | 3A@5V._ | | * https://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/appnotes/00001953a | .pd... | interestica wrote: | I wanted to get a trimmer with USB-C. Unfortunately, all | that I found would not allow c-to-c charging. Only charging | from A. The 'A' basically allows a 'hot wire' type charge | to go through for power. C-only charging requires | negotiation. There's no way to tell up front that the | charging is limited like this and manufacturers don't want | to highlight it. | Nextgrid wrote: | You can build your own cable by buying a "USB-C trigger" | (as they're called on eBay), it's a board with a USB-C | port and a power delivery controller chip that's | preconfigured for the specified voltage. | interestica wrote: | This is the information I needed. Thank you! | maccard wrote: | And how am I supposed to know that when looking at a device | that has a USB-C port for charging, and the instructions on | the charger [0] say "Nintendo Switch can be charged by | plugging the AC adapter into the console's USB Type-C | connector." | | [0] https://store.nintendo.co.uk/en_gb/-nintendo-switch- | power-ad... | outadoc wrote: | > New Annex (Part I): It requires that mobiles phones and | the similar radio devices, if they are capable to be | recharged via wired charging, are equipped with the USB | Type-C receptacle and, if they also require charging at | voltages higher than 5 volts or currents higher than 3 | amperes or powers higher than 15 watts , incorporate the | USB Power Delivery charging communication protocol. | | Nintendo will have to get its crap together and properly | support Power Delivery, the burden is not on you. | gpderetta wrote: | You are not supposed to, but it seems to me that the blame | is on Nintendo, not with USB-C. | xxpor wrote: | Nintendo always does something that's JUST slightly off | with their consoles that make them annoying as hell to | use. | | With the switch it's the screwed up USB-C implementation | and the fact that you can't use bluetooth headphones (it | has BT support, but only for the controllers) | | With the DS, the wifi only supported WEP, not WPA, even | though WPA2 had been released by the time the DS came out | | The Wii famously didn't support HD output. | bobthepanda wrote: | The Switch was updated to support BT headphones, with the | caveat that you can only have 2 BT controllers | simultaneously connected with the headphones, and the | controllers can't be switched while headphones are in. | Teknoman117 wrote: | The reason for the limitation is bandwidth and latency. | | Multiple devices on one Bluetooth controller have to | timeslice in 4 millisecond (iirc) chunks. Audio devices | in a high quality mode consume a substantial amount of | the overall bandwidth. It also doesn't matter if your | packet consumes the full size of a chunk of not, all of | them are equally sized. You'd have to do two audio chunks | and one controller chunk * 2 controllers to maintain a 60 | Hz sample rate on the controllers. | dottedmag wrote: | By trying, returning the device (ouch for the shop), and | then complaining to your local enforcer of Radio Equipment | Directive (ouch for the manufacturer). | rbanffy wrote: | According to this regulation, it seems devices and cables | must be clearly marked as for what they can do. | maccard wrote: | The only comment I could see in the article on that topic | is this: | | > the EU simply said that "consumers will be provided | with clear information on the charging characteristics of | new devices, making it easier for them to see whether | their existing chargers are compatible. | | Which is super disappointing, as the person who wrote TFA | clearly didn't read anything other than the press | release. The actual supporting documentation is here [0] | and says: | | > on the packaging or a label, manufacturers would have | to provide information on specifications relating to | charging capabilities, in line with annex Ia (amended | Article 10(8) RED). This includes a description of the | wired chargers' power requirements (the text displayed | should read: 'The minimum power delivered by charger | shall be equal or higher than [xx] watts') and | specifications on charging capabilities ('USB PD fast | charging' and an indication of any other supported | charging protocols). | | Which is still not great - this doesn't cover cables for | example, and it doesn't guarantee that it will be printed | on the device. Here [1] are apples chargers in the UK - | unless they're side by side it's impossible to tell which | one of those chargers is which, and even at that unless | you know for sure one of the devices is X, its' really | quite difficult to tell. | | [0] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/thinktank/en/document/ | EPRS_BR... [1] | https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/accessories/all/made-by- | apple?... | nonethewiser wrote: | > It's not a failure of the spec, it's a failure to adhere to | the spec. | | Which means 1 spec is not sufficient for interoperability | vineyardmike wrote: | Creating a spec that people don't want, can't, or can't | afford to adhere is a failure. | | I don't recall ever seeing prior USB devices fail at | adherence. | | The problem is that USB C is a massive spec with a lot of | things that aren't always needed in it (display, pd, high | data speeds etc). You can either design your product to | implement a lot more things (eg Macs) or skimp out and cause | confusion (Switch). By breaking the standard, people | effectively have to buy your charger or cables to know it'll | work. If I have to either buy a high end product or buy | cables and chargers only from the original brand, we aren't | really any better off with this. | camdat wrote: | >I don't recall ever seeing prior USB devices fail at | adherence. | | Really? You've never seen a power only micro-usb cable | (missing 2 bus lines)? I have dozens from all types of | devices that use USB as a charging only connector. | | This has been a problem with every USB iteration (hard to | have the U in USB if you aren't able to handle a wide | variety of applications), but I vastly prefer it to the | early 00s when you might have 5 different cables to each | "specialty" application. | bpfrh wrote: | I think any protocol that wants to implement a wide range | of features will be complex. | | Afaik if you don't need these you can just implement the | parts you need e.g. charging. | tankenmate wrote: | Sure we are, if they don't conform to the spec then they | can't get a CE mark; which then means it can't be sold in | the EU and the device misses out on a 350~400M person | market. | tshaddox wrote: | Or maybe Nintendo just decided that they didn't care. I | really don't see how any technical specification could be | expected to physically prevent everyone in the world from | deliberately implementing it partially or incorrectly. I | don't doubt that USB-C might be technically complicated and | confusing compared to alternatives and predecessors, but I | find it very difficult to believe that Nintendo engineering | gave it their best shot and simply couldn't manage to do it | correctly. | AlgorithmicTime wrote: | rbanffy wrote: | It looks like Nintendo would have to fix that in order to | comply with the regulations. The bare minimum, if I read it | correctly, is to label the port and charger making it clear | what their limitations are. | miohtama wrote: | My Macbook Pro charger charges Nintendo Switch, so maybe this | was fixed later? Switch is 2017 device. | mattnewton wrote: | For me, it will charge but not power the dock for playing | on a TV. | univerio wrote: | There's a specific PD profile (15V IIRC) that your | charger needs in order to be able to power the dock, and | older MacBook chargers didn't have it. | smoldesu wrote: | I have a launch-model Switch, and it still has trouble | charging even on latest firmware. It's very possible that | this is one of the "Mariko" fixes; Nintendo silently | released a refresh of the Nintendo Switch before the OLED | model was announced, dubbed the Mariko models. These had a | number of changes, including but not limited to: | | - New, more secure boot sequence | | - Updated Nvidia Tegra board | | - ~20% better battery life | | - Reinforced chassis design | | It seems likely that they took the opportunity with Mariko | to redesign their charging ICs to be more tolerant. I | heartily recommend looking up some of the more subtle | differences between the models too, it's really interesting | to see how Nintendo updated a mass-market product without | anyone really noticing. | jnovek wrote: | Just to make this thread a bit more aggravating, I have | two pre-Mariko switches -- at least they both have the | Nvidia Tegra vulnerability, anyway -- and I have yet to | see either fail to charge on random USB-C cables and | chargers. | | As another poster mentioned, however, they will only dock | with the OEM charger. | | Seems like whatever is happening with the OG switch USB-C | implementation it's not straightforward. | Tijdreiziger wrote: | When docking, the Switch specifically wants 15V/2.6A [1]. | Any less and it won't dock. There are some third-party | vendors which have somehow circumvented this requirement, | though [2]. | | [1] https://switchchargers.com/how-nintendo-switch- | charging-work... -- scroll down to "Nintendo Switch Dock" | | [2] e.g. https://skullnco.com/collections/nintendo- | switch/products/ju... and | https://www.gulikit.com/productinfo/506086.html | izacus wrote: | The change has to have come earlier, my pre-Mariko Switch | had no troubles charging from multiple phone, MacBook, | tablet and 3rd party USB-C chargers. | smoldesu wrote: | It's interesting, that _does_ seem to be what people are | reporting... I wonder if that suggests that an IC | redesign came before Mariko but after launch? | izacus wrote: | I'd say there was a firmware update of the USB-C chip | somewhere early to fix bugs. | DeRock wrote: | I have a device from launch, and remember for the first | while this didn't work, but now does. It must've been fixed | at some point with a SW update. | johnwalkr wrote: | It may not be fully compliant to the spec but it does always | charge in my experience. It will charge eventually from most | any usb-c charger, including Apple's. But, a docked switch | requires 15V and not all chargers will provide it, or maybe | they just don't provide it to the off-spec switch. Similar | story with the HDMI output of the dock. It took a bit of | research to buy a charger and HDMI adapter that work with | both my switch and macbook, but it was possible and it's nice | for travel. | mmis1000 wrote: | It's even funnier that. Even your charger have 15v. The | dock something failed the handshake and require you to | unplug and plug again to trigger the 15v. I think the | switch is just not spec compliant. That shouldn't happen on | a device that implement the spec properly. | onphonenow wrote: | I thought they'd made Micro-USB a standard. | | Funny to see them go to a "new" standard based on market | | I like lighting better (audio latency on lighting is fantastic) | than USB-C. | mig39 wrote: | The funny thing is that when this was first proposed by the EU, | the connector they proposed was the USB-Mini connector. Imagine | if that had been successful. | bluescrn wrote: | So will USB-D be announced before then? | marticode wrote: | USB-C is highly extensible (some would say way too much), I | doubt we will need to make a connector that is physically | incompatible anytime soon (although I'm sure the standard will | be upgraded for more speed/uses) | rootusrootus wrote: | > I doubt we will need to make a connector that is physically | incompatible anytime soon | | Didn't USB-C already do that to itself? I suppose that | depends on how narrow the definition of "physically | incompatible" is. But IIRC you can't buy a perfect do- | everything USB-C cable today, because some USB-C use cases | are flat out incompatible with others. | xeromal wrote: | I believe those are just shitty implementations of the | spec. If you buy high quality gear with high quality specs, | it should work ok. | | The Nintendo switch is a pile of shit though. | matthewmacleod wrote: | You can - AFAIK a real Thunderbolt 4 cable will carry | anything that can be carried over a USB-C port. | cesarb wrote: | At the cost of being shorter and stiffer; a cable which | can only use USB 2.0 and 3A charging can be longer and | thinner. And there are also buggy devices (like the first | hardware revision of the Raspberry Pi 4) which | incorrectly short the two configuration pins together and | can only work with less capable cables. But other than | that, I agree: a passive Thunderbolt 4 cable can be | considered a "perfect do-everything USB-C cable". | Vladimof wrote: | I'm still waiting for a round USB connector... But either way, | that's good... it means that Apple will have to keep a connector | on their devices and not go 100% wireless (not that I would ever | use one of their devices) | happy_path wrote: | Can't they give a free adapter when selling an iPhone? | mojuba wrote: | Exactly my thought. That would save many kilotonnes of | lightning chargers and cables from being thrown away (and | replaced with USB-C ones for no good reason really). | easton wrote: | Well, there's at least one good reason: I can use my MacBook | charger to charge my iPhone without having to carry two | cables around. | akmarinov wrote: | That's very interesting, not because the new iPhone would have a | USB-C, but due to the fact that Apple continues selling older | phones. | | Currently they sell the SE, 11, 12 and 13 | | By 2024 they will be selling a SE, 13, 14 and 15. Will they | rework the SE, 13 and 14 to get USB-C? Will they stop selling | them just in Europe? | | That's potentially a lot of money left on the table. | sxg wrote: | They will almost certainly be grandfathered in. Legislation | nearly never retroactively applies to things created before the | legislation itself. | ryathal wrote: | That's a pretty huge leap. Just because a design existed | before regulation doesn't mean you can keep making it after | the regulation. I would be surprised if Apple was allowed to | keep selling non-USB-C phones manufactured in winter 2024 or | 2025. They will likely be allowed to sell existing inventory, | maybe offer refurbished phones that aren't compliant. | dan1234 wrote: | As I read it, the new laws are concerned with the chargers more | than the devices being charged - if Apple just includes a | lightning to USB-C cable (as they already do for the 12), | wouldn't that be enough to satisfy the legislation? | ajmurmann wrote: | I keep hearing that this is about waste, primarily chargers, | as you point out. I wonder if the best solution is to just | include neither a charger nor a cable. At this point I have | USB chargers and cables for every situation in my life and | any additional cable or charger would just be a waste, no | matter if USB-C or -A. Have just the people who still need | more chargers or cables buy those (or maybe reverb outlet | covers with chargers built-in). Everyone else can safe some | money and reduce future garbage. | est31 wrote: | For cars, changes like these are phased in multiple steps. For | each car model, companies mass producing cars have to obtain a | permit for the model. Then, they are allowed to sell those | cars. At which point the individual owners get their cars | registered at the government office. | | The phasing in happens by first requiring it for permits for | new models. The manufacturers can still build and sell older | models. A few years later, the rule also applies to all first | registration of new cars, to prevent car manufacturers to avoid | the new rules by keeping to produce an older model. | | IDK if something similar exists for electric household devices. | For the famous light bulb ban, they introduced it via import | and manufacturing restrictions, so you could still _sell_ the | light bulbs, and still can today, but you can 't either build | new light bulbs or (legally) get light bulbs from outside of | the EU into the EU. | | You could do the same for phones, just ban the imports at a | specified date in the future so that the hardware can be | readjusted in time. | | Anyways, this only affects one manufacturer (Apple) and they | don't have as much of a market share here as in the US. | akmarinov wrote: | Apple sells 50 million out of 250 million phones in the EU. | | Imagine if their revenue drops by 20%... | est31 wrote: | With your numbers, that'd be 4% relative to the entire | market, which is definitely something that Apple and the | other phone manufacturers can deal with. | manuelabeledo wrote: | I see a lot of negativity and nitpicking in the comments, and I | for one welcome the idea. Wired charging is a mature technology, | USB-C is extensible enough, and most manufacturers have already | adopted it as a de facto standard. Only Apple seems to be | reluctant, and only on their cellphones and perhaps some of their | headphones. | bilekas wrote: | I really have no idea other than financial reasons why Apple have | not already moved over, considering (IIRC) USB-C is ~100x faster | than lightning and even supports higher wattage too ? | r0snd0 wrote: | konschubert wrote: | Is this really what we as a society should spend our focus on? | | What percentage of landfills are phone chargers? | | 0.01% maybe? | mmastrac wrote: | Don't forget random wall warts, random laptop power supplies, | etc. All of these random DC power standards have been brutal | for creating e-waste. I try to keep my power supplies organized | and I have a few boxes full of them with various voltages, | currents, etc. | | The forcing function of laptops and other hardware needing to | work off the common USB-C PD levels will drastically improve | the situation. GaN tech is getting cheaper all the time, and | the PD chips required to make all of this tech work are super | cheap. | | Eventually I hope we end up with USB-C-at-the-wall alongside | power ports as a standard. | sylware wrote: | wait, we need 3 USB-ports: one for the external displayport | panel, one for charging, one for the mouse and the keyboard. | mrjin wrote: | Oh well. I just returned 3 USB-C hubs in a row, one almost fried | my computer. Since the introduce of USB-C, I have more cables | than ever. There are virtually so many types of USB-C cables with | different capabilities and all looks almost exactly the same. | Some cannot handle charging current of 2A or less. Some might be | able to do 3A, some maybe 5A. And some of it is USB 2.0, some are | USB 3.x 5Gbps, 10Gbps, 20 Gbps or maybe even 40 Gbps. Some have | DP-Alt mode, some don't. It's simply a random combination of any | of the previous stuff. I wish I had read the specs and labeled | them correctly. Now I have a whole bunch of them and I cannot | tell which can do what except very few long thick ones for my | monitors. | [deleted] | danieldk wrote: | _It 's simply a random combination of any of the previous | stuff. [...] Now I have a whole bunch of them and I cannot tell | which can do what except very few long thick ones for my | monitors._ | | Get a Thunderbolt 4 cable, they can carry Thunderbolt 3, | Thunderbolt 4, every USB protocol up to and including 4, DP | alt-mode, and 100W power delivery. Moreover, most of them are | clearly marked. The Apple cables are expensive, but some other | good brands (like CalDigit) offer them at reasonable prices. | | _I just returned 3 USB-C hubs in a row, one almost fried my | computer._ | | Most USB USB-C hubs (USB-C is only the connector) are terrible. | Even many premium brands (like Satechi) often use cheap Chinese | reference designs that will fry themselves pretty quickly, | cause a lot of interference, and have all kinds of annoying | limitations (mostly because they use 5 or 10 GBit/s USB 3 | standards). | | Since I have switched to quality Thunderbolt Docks, I haven't | had any issues. | thorncorona wrote: | > Since I have switched to quality Thunderbolt Docks, I | haven't had any issues. | | Do you have a list of quality docks? Or how you determine | what a quality dock is? | Wohlf wrote: | I've tried several through work, so far Dell has been the | only ones that just worked with everything. Lenovo was fine | for most things, HP didn't even work with the laptop it was | designed for. | | I think the biggest thing is how much power the dock | provides and how much attached devices need. | danieldk wrote: | Mostly checking reviews and specs. My wife and I both use a | StarTech dock at work and we have two at home. So far no | issues with our Macs. | | One thing to watch out for (when you are using a Mac) is to | avoid Docks with a Realtek NIC. They use a generic USB | driver on macOS that adds CPU load and usually only reaches | 700-900MBit. Intel I210 NICs are great, they use PCIe over | Thunderbolt and have a native driver. | chenzhekl wrote: | Just curious. If there is a seemingly better connector emerged in | the future, could vendors experiment it on new devices on their | own? Or do they have to first submit a proposal to the regulator | and then deploy it to the device after the proposal has been | accepted? I am afraid that the latter could harm innovation. | gardaani wrote: | Apple is already doing that on MacBooks. They have USB-C | connectors for charging (that will be mandated by the EU law in | the future) and they have a MagSafe connector (their | innovation). | | They can do the same for iPhone: one USB-C connector for | charging and one innovation connector. | AndrewDucker wrote: | From the FAQ: | | "Any technological developments in wired charging can be | reflected in a timely adjustment of technical requirements/ | specific standards under the Radio Equipment Directive. This | would ensure that the technology used is not outdated. | | At the same time, the implementation of any new standards in | further revisions of Radio Equipment Directive would need to be | developed in a harmonised manner, respecting the objectives of | full interoperability. Industry is therefore expected to | continue the work already undertaken on the standardised | interface, led by the USB-IF organisation, in view of | developing new interoperable, open and non-controversial | solutions." | | https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/QANDA_... | xenadu02 wrote: | In other words: no, you can't make certain kinds of | innovations without begging permission first. | binarynate wrote: | As an American, it's strange to see people applaud such | overreaching regulation that will stifle innovation. This really | underscores and makes me appreciate the differing regulatory | philosophies between the EU and the US. | binarynate wrote: | Also reminds me of this Paul Graham tweet: | | https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1231699385525903360 | phabricator wrote: | As an American, I'm surprised to see so much lip service paid | to reducing waste in our country and then describing a | universal plug as "overreaching regulation that will stifle | innovation." | | Want to roll back the styrofoam ban too? Lots of new | innovative (and greener) packaging resulted. | | (you could have just edited your first reply to include the | appeal to authority) | binarynate wrote: | The plug itself its fine, it's the government mandating | that it's illegal to use alternatives that's overreaching. | I believe people should have the choice to decide and try | better alternatives. That's how innovations are made. | | > Want to roll back the styrofoam ban too? | | That's different because it bans one thing rather than | declaring a single material as the only legal one. A better | analogy would be if a state passed a law declaring | cardboard as the _only_ legal packing material and | outlawing everything else. Also, the styrofoam ban is a | state law, not a federal law. I don 't personally feel | strongly about a styrofoam ban, but if your state wants to | try that, that's fine with me. | | > (you could have just edited your first reply to include | the appeal to authority) | | Who cares? | thinkindie wrote: | What I don't understand from Apple - they have already made the | move to USB-C with laptops (ditching the Magsafe - that was way | more practical than the USB-C connector), why resisting this much | for the iPhone/iPad/etc? I understand that they have additional | revenue streams by licensing lighting to accessories | manufactures, but still... | hoistbypetard wrote: | They've moved most of their laptops back to Magsafe now. | nuccy wrote: | They didn't move, they added an option to select: USB-C or | Magsafe-2 (it is incompatible with original Magsafe BTW), | both work fine. | | I've actually switched to Macs already when USB-C was | introduced (late 2016), so I totally missed the original | Magsafe. I recently got a new Macbook Pro 16, which has | Magsafe-2. I never used it before and for my use-case I don't | see much use for it now either. At least at home and in the | office I have external displays, which with single USB-C | cable get the signal and charge the Mac. Before it was | definitely better than any other laptop charging connector, | but advantages USB-C provides overwhelm Magsafe use for me. | tempoponet wrote: | To clarify: Magsafe 2 was introduced in 2012. You missed | the original Magsafe _and_ Magsafe 2. Old adapters (but not | the oldest) will work with the latest Macbooks. | hoistbypetard wrote: | Good point. I forgot they still charged over USB-C as well. | | I need to work, not infrequently, from the dining table | with a laptop plugged into the wall. I have two large | boisterous dogs and two not-so-large but still boisterous | children. They occasionally tear around the house, and the | dogs have snagged a cord and destroyed a laptop by pulling | it off the table back in the old pre-magsafe days. Magsafe | prevented damage to multiple laptops for me. | | While I love the single-cable docking angle of USB-C, I'd | give it up for magnets if I needed to. For my thinkpad, I | actually have one of those magnetic USB-C cables to use at | that table. | TravelPiglet wrote: | Magsafe is back | dankboys wrote: | Apple's argument behind keeping the lightning connector is that | it offers a superior standard of waterproofing than the USB-C | can provide. The iPad and MacBook, to my knowledge, don't make | any claims about being waterproof. | | (Not to say anything about the veracity of the waterproof | argument, just that they make it) | breckenedge wrote: | MagSafe is back on new models, and Lightning is physically | thinner than USB-C. | doikor wrote: | > Lightning is physically thinner than USB-C. | | The thinnest smartphones on the market currently are all | USB-C phones so that does not really seem to be an issue. | These are a good 2mm thinner then the thinnest iPhone ever | made. | nuccy wrote: | A surprise for me was that lightning is only USB2 and one- | sided, so at any moment it is plugged half of the pins is | unused. Additionally it has exposed wires, in case of charger | failure, USB-C provides a better protection. | rootusrootus wrote: | At the same time, it is starting to look like USB-C is | still not going to be more robust than Lightning | connectors. A vast improvement on micro USB, to be sure, | but still. Recall that Lightning came out 12 years ago, and | the alternative was micro-USB. It's so much better that we | can actually debate it relative to USB-C today, which is | high praise. | micv wrote: | Some Lightning devices use both sides to get USB3 speeds. I | really have no idea why Apple have left other devices at | USB2 performance. It doesn't make an awful lot of sense to | me. | eddieroger wrote: | Because what's their incentive to do better? Most people | only use the port for charging, which has no data speed, | and the number of people who sync via wire is lower than | ever and declining. USB2 was good enough for a long time, | and it's not like it changed. | seanmcdirmid wrote: | I expect Apple to do away with the lightning port | eventually and just ship MagSafe (the phone kind) | chargers with their phones for a completely wireless | phone with no holes at all. We aren't there yet (many | people still like wired headphone solutions vs | Bluetooth), but maybe in 2-3 years? | seanmcdirmid wrote: | The exposed wires make lightning easier to plug into a | phone than USB-C: you don't have to line up the lightning | connector with its port as precisely as you do USB-C | because the connector is slightly smaller than the port, | whereas it is almost flush in USB-C. | thinkindie wrote: | I completely missed that part. What I don't understand is | then why Apple doesn't open source their solution if they | think they are superior and they care about the environment. | Same with lighting. | scarface74 wrote: | The only iPad that still uses lightning is the $329 cheap one. | Leo_Verto wrote: | I like the theory that Apple is trying to keep Lightning on | their phones until they can make an entirely wireless iPhone | happen, but the failure of AirPower [1] was likely a factor in | delaying this transition further than planned. | | [1]: https://www.macrumors.com/2019/03/29/apple-officially- | cancel... | Majromax wrote: | > I understand that they have additional revenue streams by | licensing lighting to accessories manufactures, but still... | | Bingo. It's not the charging, it's the port itself. But the fee | and lock-in also apply to data-using accessories. | | Wired iPhone headphones aren't compatible with other phones, | for example, and if you've purchased (e.g.) an expensive FLIR | phone-mounted thermal camera, then you're less likely to jump | to the Android/USB-C ecosystem at your next phone upgrade. | darklion wrote: | I always enjoy seeing the "Apple doesn't want to give up the | money" takes. | | How much money does Apple make from their licensing? Point me | to even one estimate that shows me the money that Apple makes | on the Lightning port licensing, and what fraction of its | overall profit, loss, or even revenue, that the Lightning | licensing comprises. | rootusrootus wrote: | I don't think it's fees. Relative to what they earn directly | from customers, fees are a pittance. I figure they have | exactly two reasons, both plausible, to be reluctant to | switch the phone over to USB-C. | | The first is size -- lightning is thinner than USB. But other | phones have USB-C, so this is probably not that big a hassle. | | The second is their customers. For every customer that wants | USB-C on their new phone, a dozen more want all their | existing accessories and cables to continue to work when they | upgrade their phone. | badwolf wrote: | 2 is a big point. This is supposedly about e-waste, but | will force everyone to trash all their old cables and | accessories even faster now. | dontlaugh wrote: | I'm sure they have other reasons, but as a user I much prefer | the ergonomics of Lightning ports. They're smaller and simpler | mechanically. | franciscop wrote: | The problem is that for security with electricity the bits | that provide the electric current should be female terminals | (protected) while the ones that receive it male (you can | touch them). Apple doesn't follow this and you can easily | touch the charged ports of the charged device, which is not a | problem since it's very low voltage, but in USB-C connectors | that can reach up to 240Watts so that's a no-go. | kasey_junk wrote: | As a consumer I much prefer lightning to usbc. And would prefer | apple open it. | | That said it's moot. I've got a mix of everything in my house | and some of it won't be upgraded for a very long time. | stevenalowe wrote: | "EU reaches deal" is misleading. "EU politicians made a deal over | the objections of manufacturers" would be more accurate. | | What happens when your awesome new product won't work with mere | usb-c? You get to lobby politicians for a decade to update the | standard | | This is a destructive decision that unfortunately will | effectively bury evidence against it, ie all the things that | won't happen because of it | dontbenebby wrote: | Awesome! I recently put off buying an adapter I lost for one | device, and just started using an old USB battery with the | correct connector to charge it up outside my home instead, I was | THAT annoyed with the fact I need to hurt my back and stress my | mind dealing with all these... ports. | | This is a positive example of the EU influencing American | technology companies. | | (I say that as someone considering getting an EU passport though, | so I might be biased.) | lekevicius wrote: | As a European, I'm very happy. | | USB-A has been with us for over 20 years. It's only disappearing | because of USB-C, and USB-C seems to have room to grow. I | wouldn't be surprised if it will still be the most popular | connector in 2035, and not just because "legislation stops | innovation". | | Making sure there are no weird exceptions to a very good port is | reasonable and good. | 2000UltraDeluxe wrote: | The idea's nice. I'll still have about 30 unusable micro-USB | chargers lying around, though. | asutekku wrote: | Sure, doesn't still mean we should stagnate and be forced to | use tech that is basically obsolete for a modern world's | requirements. | rob_c wrote: | I wouldn't stand on the hill of this is obsolete tech, | there should be more devices built with power efficiency | from the ground up as well as less focus on the USBC | charges your phone faster. This is more about usbc will | charge every device you have in a few years so no reaching | for custom chargers. Usbc->X cables however are another | matter nothing is stopping HP making a custom usbc->HP port | for their laptops for instance | [deleted] | spacexsucks wrote: | Basically obsolete. As someone who uses a 7 yr old ipad, a | 10 yr old windows phone and a 9 yr old Nexus 7 this is hot | garbage | asutekku wrote: | Just because you are using old tech with a connector | that's prone to break and is not able to transfer data | quickly doesn't mean everyone else has to. | erddfre3423 wrote: | Everyone else should not have a choice to buy new | equipment as cheap as they can do today, whenever they | wish. That's simply not sustainable. | kalleboo wrote: | Interesting, I've never seen a charger with microUSB | permanently attached, all my chargers have a USB-A port where | you can change the cable. | | In any case, you can just stick tiny plug adapters on all | your chargers. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07G54XXZZ/ | vladvasiliu wrote: | I have an old Blackberry charger that has the cord | attached, and I'm pretty sure I also have some old Samsung | charger that's the same. But they're clearly quite rare. | 2000UltraDeluxe wrote: | I've got a whole bunch of them, actually. Luckily, they | can be repurposed for older Pi models. | ThatPlayer wrote: | Off the top of my head, the Official Raspberry Pi Power | Supplies, for both the microUSB and USB-C variants are | permanently attached cables. | pornel wrote: | Cables, not chargers. | | Your chargers are USB-A, and you can make them usable with an | A-to-C cable. | | There are no chargers with micro-USB output port (USB never | specified such thing). Micro-USB has been designed to make | cables essentially disposable (and not meant to be hardwired | into any device), because the more robust side of the | connector is in the device's port, and the fragile side is in | the cable. | vineyardmike wrote: | > There are no chargers with micro-USB output port | | https://www.amazon.com/CanaKit-Raspberry-Supply-Adapter- | List... | floxy wrote: | >There are no chargers with micro-USB output port | | https://duckduckgo.com/?q=microusb+AC+adapter&t=ffab&iar=im | a... | mlyle wrote: | > There are no chargers with micro-USB output port (USB | never specified such thing | | I have several chargers with a brick and a permanently | attached micro-USB cable that came with devices. One from | Samsung; a couple from Grandcentral; a few for Raspberry | Pis. | Sohcahtoa82 wrote: | > Micro-USB has been designed to make cables essentially | disposable [..], because the more robust side of the | connector is in the device's port, and the fragile side is | in the cable. | | In my experience, this wasn't true. I had both a tablet and | a phone that had the charging port fail. If I didn't apply | a constant sideways force on the cable, it wouldn't charge. | Tried other cables to make sure it wasn't a bad cable, but | still had the same problem. | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | That's how progress works though. Would you rather be stuck | with micro-USB technical limitations to this day instead? | JumpCrisscross wrote: | This almost certainly prompts a USB-C iPhone followed by a | portless one. (I don't think they're thin enough yet for | USB-C to be structurally compromising.) In the box will | either be no charger or a wireless charger with a USB-C port, | thereby technically meeting the requirement. | rob_c wrote: | Great until you have some "sales rep" in a supermarket dealing | with a Karen who's device won't charge fast enough off a 10W | USBC charger that fundamentally isn't the same as a 60W one. | kalleboo wrote: | That's not new to USB-C though, there was already a wide | range of charging speeds on USB-A | rob_c wrote: | Kind of is new when all of the specs rely on cable | capability and not all manufacturers label different cables | differently. The spec for what it is, is a mess, but it's a | nice, nay, highly desirable form factor. | vladvasiliu wrote: | Yeah, but now there are the bonus points for a "fastish" | USB-A charger (QC something, that puts out ~20W) which | won't do anything to a laptop that requires "PD", even | though the 20W would be enough to at least slowly charge | the battery while off. | Tijdreiziger wrote: | Legacy fast charging was always a mess of competing | proprietary standards. A charger adhering to one standard | (e.g. Samsung AFC or Oppo VOOC) wouldn't fast charge a | phone using a different standard (e.g. Qualcomm QC or | Apple 2.4A). | | https://www.androidauthority.com/fast-charging- | explained-2-8... | D13Fd wrote: | It does stop innovation in things like lightning and MagSafe. | And it doesn't fix the multiple charger issue either, because | so many manufacturers don't adhere to the USB-C standard that | any combination of charger + cable + device has an unreasonably | non-zero chance of not working or even damaging the device. | | So in the end we still have to have multiple chargers, but now | we can roll the dice on which one works with or damages which | device because they all use the same connector. | Majestic121 wrote: | It does not stop innovation like MagSafe : | https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Adapter-Connector- | Transfer-C... | | I'm not sure what you mean by 'unreasonably non-zero', but | I've been sharing chargers between Macbook, XPS 13 and | Thinkpad with no concern, + a charger from amazon. | | Some charger are less powerful than others, so charge is not | always as quick, but in real life it does not matter : it's | still charging fast enough in any combination, and for the | last year the only reason I have multiple chargers is to have | one at home and one at work, but any laptop works well on all | chargers. | D13Fd wrote: | I don't think an adapter is the kind of innovation HN users | are looking for. | | I've fried at least one USB-C device, a high-end wireless | headset, seemingly by connecting it to a name-brand USB-C | charger that had some kind of incompatibility with the | headset. | | Plus, even among Apple chargers, some USB-C chargers will | support fast charging, and some won't, regardless of their | rated wattage. Plus some will and will not support fast | charging via a wireless charger (either a MagSafe wireless | charger or an Apple Watch charger). There are a lot of | charging incompatibilities in the current state of USB-C, | even among devices from a single manufacturer. | kansface wrote: | You shouldn't use a lower wattage charger so it goes. | Majestic121 wrote: | I have seen it in some forums as well, but do you have | any explanation links about why that may be ? | | I have trouble finding relevant information that is not | some random dude on a forum speaking very confidently one | way or another without much data to back it up, and I | don't see why that would cause any harm other than | charging more slowly, eventually to the point of | discharging if you consume a lot of power (which is a | pretty tolerable downside). | closetohome wrote: | I assume it's just people being impatient. Using a lower | powered charger is arguably better for battery longevity. | vineyardmike wrote: | By the way, it's been talked on HN a lot when USB c comes | up, it you shouldn't use those magnetic cables. The | "magnetic disconnect" motion can cause arcing and static | electricity that can theoretically damage the thing they're | plugged into. Especially if you leave the exposed pins on | the device as you use it unplugged. | colejohnson66 wrote: | How did MagSafe historically handle this? The pogo pins | may've been recessed, but they were still exposed to the | elements. | X-Istence wrote: | There's communication between the device and the power | brick. When the communication stops the power stops being | delivered. Not sure how Apple is doing that these days | with the MagSafe USB-C they have introduced on their | laptops since you can plug the other end into any and all | USB-C capable chargers. | 908B64B197 wrote: | > So in the end we still have to have multiple chargers, but | now we can roll the dice on which one works with or damages | which device because they all use the same connector. | | Doesn't really matter. Just charge with any charger that's | USB-C compatible. If it breaks the machine just RMA it. It | didn't adhere to the spec so file a complain to the EU | commission in charge of these charging standards as well. | | Wait what was the point again? Ohh E-Waste reduction. | Aerroon wrote: | And when that happens I lose all the data on the device and | access to a device for months at a time. | | And all I gained from this is that I will have to buy a | cable separately from the device itself now. | | But hey, at least I'll only get 5 new cables in a decade | instead of 10! Such incredible savings. | dkjaudyeqooe wrote: | > It does stop innovation in things like lightning and | MagSafe | | I think avoiding "innovation" in the form of yet another | connector is USB C's mission. | | Apple just released a USB C to MagSafe cable, where is the | problem? | | Lightning isn't innovation it's pure vendor lock in complete | with embedded cable chips to enforce it. | | Any improperly designed device can damage other devices, | suggesting it's somehow particular to USB C is specious. | mlyle wrote: | > that any combination of charger + cable + device has an | unreasonably non-zero chance of not working | | These issues have evaporated for me in the past couple of | years. The only devices that I have in use that are still | finicky are Nintendo Switch, and it's my understanding that | newer models have fixed these problems, too. | | My only complaints are that I wish my MBP would draw 10W from | non-PD USB, instead of 5W (not _really_ a USB-C problem), and | my kids ' laptops that have USB-C ports but don't support | USB-PD and only charge from coaxial power adapters. | grishka wrote: | Apple can keep selling laptops with MagSafe because they are | _also_ capable of charging via the USB-C ports. Same with | phones, they can add whatever wireless charging technology | they want, it 's the wired charging port that is required to | be USB-C. | kstenerud wrote: | Alright, so before more folks freak out even more at this, there | are a number of knee-jerk reactions that could be mitigated by | reading up on this a bit before tossing thunderbolts. | | The main reasoning for this is to cut down on waste from | incompatible chargers. This will bring charging more in line with | other standardized products such as AC power cords, twisted pair | networking, SD cards, M.2 SSDs, and all of those wonderful things | that come from standards that everyone follows. | | Can no one continue to sell charging products for stuff that's | already out there? Obviously you can continue to support existing | stuff. This rule applies to power drawing products, not the | chargers (products sold in 2024 must charge from USB-C, but you | can continue selling non-USB-C chargers for older stuff already | in consumer hands). | | Will it stop innovation? Of course not. New innovations can be | brought forth in the same way they are with the other standards | mentioned above: developed in a harmonised manner, respecting the | objectives of full interoperability (in this case led by the USB- | IF organisation). | | Is USB-C a complicated standard? Yep, but then again most | companies manage to produce working and interoperable stuff just | fine. | | Are there companies that break the standard? Yes of course - | there are always bad actors and careless implementations. But | consumer laws will prevent them from selling their crap in the | European market. This is what standards enforcement is for (the | CE marking, for example). | | Are HNers going to look for extreme and unlikely cases and | anecdata to ride their hobby horses on this? It wouldn't be HN | without it! | theptip wrote: | I think your analogy isn't right. None of those standards are | mandatory. Would M.2 have come out when it did if you needed to | change the law to permit it to be used over SATA? | | USB-C is already a standard just like all your other examples. | This law forbids using other standards. | | > New innovations can be brought forth in the same way they are | with the other standards mentioned above: developed in a | harmonised manner | | I think you are confused about how consumer product innovation | happens in the real world. You don't form a committee and | convince them that your new product is better. You bring | something new to market and if it succeeds, you make money and | gain market share; like Apple did when they brought out | Lightning. Even if you are building a new standard like M.2, | you are still competing with other standards, all of which can | be chosen by your customers as they deem appropriate. By | definition it is now harder to innovate on charging cables | simply because you can't try something new. | | It is perfectly fine to say "I don't think we need to | prioritize innovation in this sector any more; eWaste is more | important than innovation". I wouldn't even argue with that | claim in the short term. But it's not credible to deny that | this will have a negative effect on innovation. That is always | the impact of regulation like this. If nothing else, startups | are now forbidden from experimenting with this variable. | kstenerud wrote: | > None of those standards are mandatory | | AC power cord standards ARE mandatory. The other standards | don't require enforcement because the industry has already | converged on the standards and didn't need a push. | | This will be the equivalent power cord standard for DC | devices. However, unlike AC power cords, USB-C also transmits | data, and will thus require further innovations (much like | the innovations in twisted pair networking). | | Will there be less innovation? In a small way, yes, because | nobody can unilaterally push some new power cable standard by | leveraging their market dominance. But then again, market | dominance usually results in protectionism instead of | openness (lightning cable, memory stick, Beta, etc), so such | innovation would have been a dead-end e-waste producer | anyway. | | What big players CAN do now is influence the newer standards | to adopt their (free and open) innovations, like they do with | all other standards out there. The great thing about open | standards is that the rising tide lifts all boats. | pydry wrote: | >But it's not credible to deny that this will have a negative | effect on innovation. | | Why? What consumer friendly innovations in charging have we | had since USB C came out that this law would have made | illegal if it were introduced from the start? | | >That is always the impact of regulation like this. | | I think it would be fair to say that if we could point to | examples of useful innovation in the past that would have | been killed by this legislation. But can we? | simion314 wrote: | > By definition it is now harder to innovate on charging | cables simply because you can't try something new. | | Sure you can, because you have to support the standard but | Apple could invent HyperSuperCoolRoundedCornerCharger and put | it as an alternative, if it charges hyper super faster then | the standard the customers will prefer it and buy the super | expensive platinum Apple Genuine DRM protected charger and | Apple makes money, customers are happy and if Apple wants to | drop the standard USB they can just standardize their cool | shit and it will become the new standard. | theptip wrote: | To be clear, if USB-C charging is mandatory, you cannot | have an alternative charging port, unless you want to have | multiple ports on your device, which is (I think obviously) | absurd. By requiring USB-C, you forbid other port types | from being used. So this regulation is forbidding Apple | from using their Lightning connector, and also forbidding | any other vendor from introducing an alternative. Without | revision it presumably also forbids anyone from using USB-D | if/when that comes out. | | Ironically the mode of experimentation from Apple that | you're describing as desirable is the current state of the | world, and is the thing that is being forbidden here; this | regulation is explicitly targeted at getting Apple to stop | using their alternative | "HyperSuperCoolRoundedCornerCharger" as you put it, and to | change their product to use USB-C. | geraneum wrote: | This is an unrealistic view of how current standards are | introduced, approved and adopted. Interesting that you | mentioned Apple, when they are using their significant market | share to push lightning down their customers throats. The | standards mentioned, are approved mostly by consortiums of | big enterprises. So in a sense, there's already a committee | that evaluates and passes them. You also find the usual | suspects among them i.e. Apple, IBM, HP, Google, etc. there's | no small startup there. | [deleted] | [deleted] | [deleted] | Melatonic wrote: | FINALLY | mlindner wrote: | Imagine they had made this dumb decision back when Micro USB was | the standard. We would have never gotten anything better than | Micro USB. Governments shouldn't be in the market of mandating | that a specific technical standards must be used as it freezes | innovation. | | Also purely in terms of usability, the Apple thunderbolt plug is | easier to clean and less error prone on insertion as it self- | centers. | nayuki wrote: | Thunderbolt has the same connector as USB-C. Surely you mean | Apple Lightning. | samzub wrote: | It looks like they did at the time : | https://www.engadget.com/2010-12-29-european-standardization... | | I think standardization does not harm innovation. With more | actors working on the same standard, it can evolve and get | better while consumers are able to reuse hardware (here, phone | chargers) | mlindner wrote: | > I think standardization does not harm innovation. | | Standardization isn't the problem. Enforced standardization | is the problem. Standardization is beneficial when done by | the industry because it's a collaborative process where | everyone works together to create standards that are mutually | beneficial. When the government comes in and enforces an | already created industry standard it becomes impossible to | change or improve it. This has happened in many industries | where things are now done "just because" as the law enforced | a now very outdated standard. | | And no, the government doesn't create standards, they all | come from industry originally. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-06-07 23:00 UTC)