[HN Gopher] Dwarf Fortress Update - Tutorials and Tooltips ___________________________________________________________________ Dwarf Fortress Update - Tutorials and Tooltips Author : capableweb Score : 197 points Date : 2022-06-08 13:44 UTC (9 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.kitfoxgames.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.kitfoxgames.com) | xwdv wrote: | Personally I don't care about the graphics they are cool but the | one feature I wish DF would have instead is being multi threaded | to take advantage of modern processors with multiple cores. | | There comes a point where you just can't play anymore because | everything is way too fucking slow. | outworlder wrote: | Simulations are notoriously difficult to parallelize. You | always have a bunch of things all dependent on the results of | one another. | kibwen wrote: | Sadly this will probably never happen. Tarn is no slouch as a | coder, but he's an old school C programmer working on a | massive, legacy, single-threaded C++ codebase. Introducing | useful and stable multithreading to similar codebases has taken | teams of programmers years to achieve. | hyperman1 wrote: | I heard the pathfinding is slow, and that's almost readonly | and very parrallel. So a model where the game only threads | this part might be a first step. | | Talking as someone who knows nothing from the codebase here, | of course. | mabbo wrote: | Dwarf Fortress has always been a brilliant lesson in UX. | | It answers the question: what if you had a great product, but the | user experience was the worst possible choice in every single | way, but all functionality still existed and worked? | | It turns out some people will _still_ use the product. | | I'm excited to see what happens when the UX is also reasonable. | joemi wrote: | It might not be the best UX, but it's certainly far from the | worst. | mabbo wrote: | > but it's certainly far from the worst | | I'm scared to ask this, but what is _worse_? | | And I say this as someone who has lost hundreds of hours to | Dwarf Fortress. | joemi wrote: | I guess it kind of depends on how you mean it, but I think | there are many worse things... I've used software where | actions that should be a single step are two or three steps | (like a "click OK and now confirm that you clicked OK" for | an inconsequential step out). I've played games with | intentionally difficult UI, like QWOP. There are a few | Windows computers at my work which are a bit older and when | you go to open a program, nothing apparently happens, so | you instinctively click again, and again nothing happens, | so you either click again or wait a while, and then finally | your web browser (or whatever) opens, but you get several | windows open since you clicked it a few times, and this | happens every time, just due to the way the UI delay | happens. Also, there are experimental designs like | https://userinyerface.com/ which illustrate brutally | terrible UX. | | So, in my experience, the Dwarf Fortress UX is definitely | complicated and isn't easily discoverable, but at least it | does what it's supposed to. It doesn't infuriate me the way | that some things (especially truly poorly designed things) | do. This is why I claim it's far from the worst. | 542458 wrote: | Aurora 4X is pretty bad - it's as confusing as DF, but much | more clumsy to use. Some dungeon crawl games have | incredibly opaque UIs. System Shock 1 (non-enhanced) feels | really, really terrible now, but I'm not sure it was as bad | at the time. | | I'm not sure those qualify as worse than DF though. Depends | on your definition of worse, I guess. | izend wrote: | Much fewer users though... If Dwarf Fortress magically had the | UX they are working on now back in 2012 it would be worth at | least $50million+ | | Now, the fact they skipped working on the UX until now allowed | Tarn to implement very difficult crazy features Z-level | fortress layers and Fluid Dynamics. | ctvo wrote: | > If Dwarf Fortress magically had the UX they are working on | now back in 2012 it would be worth at least $50million+ | | And how did you come up with that 50 million USD number? Is | it multiplayer? Can a major corporation use it to target a | young audience demographic? Will there be a mobile version or | micro transactions? | kjs3 wrote: | If it had all that, someone would say it was worth $1b+. | revolvingocelot wrote: | >the fact they skipped working on the UX until now allowed | Tarn to implement very difficult crazy features Z-level | fortress layers and Fluid Dynamics | | Not sure how seriously this was meant, but I unironically | agree. I learned, _while still in college_ , never to mock up | a "working" polished UI lacking all the complex backend, just | to show the client how it'll look when it's done. To the non- | computerati, the metaphor is a tradesman working on | renovations. If you don't make development versions look | _and_ feel like crap, the normies won 't accept that it's not | "almost ready". | | Tarn's priorities here drive away most people, and filters | for the sort of person who thinks "modern graphics library" | means "ncurses". | bombcar wrote: | The Z-level stuff is so ingrained into me as a default (I | started playing just before it was added) that it's amazing | to think that some of the most famous DF stories are from | before it was added. | NhanH wrote: | So what was it like before the Z-level stuff? Only the | surface and one level below that? | Arrath wrote: | Pre-Z DF was basically a side-scroller. Surface was map- | left, there was a cliff face, and the further map-right | you went was 'deeper' | jtolmar wrote: | The left was outside, the mountain face was basically a | vertical line, and all the things we associate with | "deeper" were found further and further to the right of | that line. Some ways in you'd find an underground river | (which floods when you first find it), then a chasm | (enemies spawn from here), then a magma river, [spoilers | for ancient versions of DF start now] eerie glowing pits, | and finally adamantine. Finding adamantine made the king | show up and demand you mine more and more adamantine, but | the more you mined the more likely you were to have your | fortress suddenly end in a cutscene. | | All these fixed elements gave the game a specific | progression of increasing rewards and challenges, and a | guaranteed story arc for the whole fortress. | drewcoo wrote: | https://www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Bloodline:Boa | tmu... | danaris wrote: | From what I've seen, it was fully 2-D: the "surface" was | to the left, then you hit the mountain face, and the | further to the right you went, the deeper you were, until | eventually you breached the proverbial Hidden Fun Stuff. | RugnirViking wrote: | No, the surface was at one side of the map, and you kept | tunneling through to the side | Workaccount2 wrote: | What is the z-level stuff? Haven't you always been able to | move through layers up/down? | bombcar wrote: | Nope, that was added in Dwarf Fortress in 2008 (and it | was a huge change at the time). | Arrath wrote: | Sometimes I miss the predictable and ensured progression | as you tunneled into the mountain and got farther from | natural light. | | Underground river -> Chasms -> Magma -> Bad Things(tm) | jml7c5 wrote: | I almost prefer it, I think! It felt much more like a | proper story game with a challenge rather than the modern | result of "The Sims, but dwarves". A single Z-level may | be too austere today, so perhaps a modern iteration could | use the same layout but with three or four Z-levels. I | wonder if there's a way to replicate that today with some | map editing... | | The real trouble I had with the old versions was the | inability to build walls. As I recall, once you dug | something out it was dug forever. | bombcar wrote: | It used to be you could be almost completely safe if you | just stayed in the upper z-levels and didn't dig too | deep, but with the caverns update you now can find | various types of fun imported directly to your back door. | R0b0t1 wrote: | Sometimes you have the fun, sometimes the fun has you. | AngryData wrote: | When you generate your world you can change the amount of | layers per layer zone. | | I don't know the minimum off hand but it is probably | around 6 normal stone or cave levels, minus the levels | used for open sky space and magma sea which I don't know | the minimum for. Trees are multilevel now and I don't | know that they will grow on a single layer. | jeffwask wrote: | > It answers the question: what if you had a great product, but | the user experience was the worst possible choice in every | single way, but all functionality still existed and worked? | | I feel like this describes every Bethesda game. | sliken wrote: | I've seen terrible game UIs, but DF seemed to take it to a | new level. Like say for instance a dozen or so ways to select | units. | Arrath wrote: | Are there still, like, 3 commands to look/inspect/view | contents or did those finally get condensed? | sliken wrote: | Heh, dunno, never got into it, but was curious. Been | following progress, and plan to tinker once the steam | version with a full GUI have been released. | | The blog updates have been amusing, things like dying | cats from soaking up too much beer in the pubs. Various | bugs and non-bugs that result in crazy events. Many | amusing stories, etc. | | I love the idea, but didn't want to invest that much time | in learning the UI. | gs17 wrote: | If we're thinking of the same interactions, the current | (texty) version still has those. | ZetaZero wrote: | There is a reason why Tarn asks for donations every month, | and Notch is a billionaire. | sliken wrote: | Indeed, they moved from occasional donations to steam in | an effort to get a reliable income stream and be able to | afford health insurance. | LAC-Tech wrote: | Because people love 3d real time first person games? | EnKopVand wrote: | I was under the impression that people use their own UIs on top | of it. Sort of how some people use the fumbbl client. | | Which are sort of effective ways of "outsourcing" the UI | development on projects where you don't have the funds (or the | talent) to make a great UI. | bombcar wrote: | The _graphics_ people often change, though technically the UI | would remain the same (keyboard characters, etc). | | However, there are additional tools that let you do "bulk | actions" by directly editing the Dwarf Fortress memory while | it is running - these are technically a UI bypass. | | The actual UI is just difficult to learn but once you do it's | surprisingly easy to use - it's consistent in its own | inconsistent way. | jandrese wrote: | I would think things like Dwarf Therapist are a good | example of the community trying their best to improve the | UI despite the roadblocks put up by the developer. | bombcar wrote: | Yeah, what we need is DFaaS, where the engine is | converted into various API calls and anyone can make a | front-end for it. | lom888 wrote: | I am a DF obsessive. Many thousands of hours spent | playing the game over the past 12 years, it is my | favorite game by far. I've also had numerous abortive | attempts to learn how to code. It humbles me to think | that people find the UI so difficult to use that they'd | sooner spend time coding another one. | bombcar wrote: | This is the problem - those who can code usually end up | learning DF "well enough" and many of those who complain | about the UI wouldn't even play it with another UI. I | personally never really found the UI that big of a | hindrance; it's like learning Lotus 1-2-3 shortcuts. | | This "sell it on steam with a GUI" is actually brilliant, | because lots of people will _buy_ it and some will play - | but it gives those who like the idea but don 't actually | want to play an excuse to give Tarn money. | crooked-v wrote: | > and many of those who complain about the UI wouldn't | even play it with another UI | | I feel like that's a stretch. Just look at how many | people play Rimworld, which has a fundamentally similar | concept but much, much easier to understand UI/UX. | R0b0t1 wrote: | I think he should sell it but open source it enough to | allow mods or an engine rewrite. I think capturing his | creative output w.r.t. game inclusions could still make | him some money. | | The game is kinda gimped because he doesn't know how to | multithread it. | [deleted] | cyberpunk wrote: | dfremote was close to this, it was very nice on my ipad | with the apple pencil. Sadly we've not had updates in | some time and I think the developer has moved onto other | things [0]. | | 0: http://mifki.com/df/ | | edit: In that with dfremote, df itself runs in a docker | container on a server somewhere, and the UI is running | entirely on your ipad. | AngryData wrote: | Personally I like the dwarfhack version that allows you | to use a Dwarf Therapist style ui within the Dwarf | Fortress UI without leaving game focus. | simonw wrote: | I first learned this lesson from Napster ~1999/2000. | | The Napster UI was terrible - almost completely | incomprehensible. And everyone I knew, including my least | technical friends, was using it. Because getting music for free | was worth dealing with any UI. | | Second time was MySpace customization: you had to paste your | own CSS into the "about me" profile box! And people figured it | out, because having a custom profile was desirable enough that | it was worth it. | tomcam wrote: | There's some kind of lesson we maybe haven't absorbed | properly. Millions of people learned crazy shit like WordStar | before Word, then MS-DOS before Windows, and then building | websites by hand using HTML. Millions. | | Of course I completely recognize that improved software | increased these markets by orders of magnitude, but to this | day I remained fascinated that regular people managed to use | such primitive tools for so long. | anyfoo wrote: | Was it? I hardly remember, but searching for old screenshots | from the time, it seems pretty straightforward... are those | later clients already? Did you have any particular gripes? | montagg wrote: | It's one of those stories people can turn into whatever | conclusion they want: | | - DF is still a great game, so good UX in games doesn't mean | anything. | | - DF is still a niche game, so good UX in games is essential. | | Caveat: I'm a UX designer who absolutely loves DF and is | saddened by how many people may never find out how great it is. | Natsu wrote: | The original DF UI reminds me of vi, both good and bad. | Der_Einzige wrote: | Well, what's interesting is that Rimworld has a good UI/UX and | has the same formula/gameplay loop at DF. Last I remembered, it | had _the highest_ user rating on steam for awhile. Many, | including myself, consider it as one of the greatest games ever | made. | | DF is also occasionally listed as a contender for "best game | ever made" - but the fact that it's inaccessible will always | force it to be obscure and nearly mystical among gamers. I'm | also convinced that the modding community in rimworld has | overtaken its DF equivilant, meaning that modded rimworld is | probably more filled with content (and therefor, emergent | possibility) in 2022 than DF-with-mods is... | | --------------------------- | | I always thought that Dwarf Fortress should be compared to | Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead (CDDA) on the UI/UX front. | | I think CDDA is the gold standard for ASCII/CLI/TUI style of | control - and I find that I can extremely quickly do things in | that game all on my keyboard, almost like a tiling window | manager. | | I'm sure this sort of nirvana is possible with Dwarf Fortress | (with the LNP) - but I was unable to achieve it, despite having | sunk over 500 hours into rimworld and nearly as much in CDDA | before playing DF. | ravi-delia wrote: | I've played RimWorld modded to hell and back, and got maybe | 20% of the way towards vanilla DF. That's not to diss | Rimworld of course, it's probably my favorite game and has a | different focus than DF. But in terms of pure emergent | complexity, Rimworld has it incidentally and DF has | essentially nothing else. | lazzlazzlazz wrote: | They're doing a better job that I expected. Very happy to sponsor | this project on Patreon. | cletus wrote: | I have enormous respect for the systems, complexity and emergent | behaviour (eg [1]) that these two guys have created over | _decades_ at this point and continue to create. | | But I just cannot get into DF in the way I would like. Even with | Dwarf Therapist, custom tile sets and so on it's still a | management nightmare. I am told some people just have a lot of | idle dwarves. It always struck me as there were too many dwarves | before you've created any sort of structure. | | I got to a point where I needed a militia to defend against some | monster and that was going to be a whole new system I'd heave to | learn, assign dwarves to, suplly and manage and I was like "this | is too much". | | I know failure is the default mode (and some consider | inevitable). It's a cool feature that if you play again on the | same world you can find your old ruins. | | I wish this were in a form where a community could contribute to | and build this out because I think it could really help. I | understand these guys derive an income from it and I support them | in that. It just seems like there's so much missed potential | here. | | Some good iconography would go a really long way. If dawrves were | wandering around with symbols above their heads showing they were | hungry, thirsty, sad or whatever without having to inspect them | you could communicate a lot of information. You might be able to | see you have a food shortage problem or why dwarves have wnadered | off looking for food. Or even that they're just bored. | | If you were looking at dwarves you could see that they're your | militia or your farmers or your miners. Not visually conveying | information just seems like a massive missed opportunity. | | [1]: https://www.eurogamer.net/why-dwarf-fortress-started- | killing... | pwillia7 wrote: | Check out Rimworld for something more digestible | outworlder wrote: | My problem is a very close one - handling the waves of migrants | the game throws at you. Even with Dwarf Therapist, there's just | way too many jobs to keep track of. I'm kinda ok with idle | dwarfs if everything is being attended to. I would generally | take idle dwarfs and turn then into a militia. | | It seems my fortresses start to break down at around the 30 | dwarf mark, but after 10 it already starts to run not- | optimally. | | Had better luck with Rimworld as generally it takes a while to | build your numbers. | bombcar wrote: | There's a config option to limit the total max number of | dwarves, which can help (though mainly on peaceful or similar | starts - obviously you can't fight a war without dwarves). | | I believe the dwarves now will flash some various icons (in the | text mode they'd flip between the dwarf character and a | downwards red arrow, for example) but it's usually when they're | almost dead of whatever it is. | drewcoo wrote: | Losing is fun! | | https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Losing | feoren wrote: | > It always struck me as there were too many dwarves before | you've created any sort of structure. | | Agreed, which is why the first thing I build in any new | fortress is a giant wall around my fortress with only one way | in: a long retractable bridge over a giant pit of death. When | new migrants arrive before I'm ready, I flip the switch as | they're crossing the bridge. Rather gruesome, but I do get all | their stuff and my fortress gets a reputation for being | dangerous, so fewer migrants show up. | ravi-delia wrote: | See this is why DF absolutely should not be fixed. What would | it be without a murderdrawbridge? | synu wrote: | That's a nice looking tile set. Did they update the default at | some point? | Shared404 wrote: | I believe this is for the Steam release, which will have a | graphical default tile set iirc. | juice_bus wrote: | This is for the steam release of Dwarf Fortress - it is getting | an official UI overhaul! | sprkwd wrote: | Do we have a release date for this yet? | bjelkeman-again wrote: | I don't think so. I am on their mailing list. | alexktz wrote: | Breathes loudly in Factorio and Rimworld noises until | then. | ravi-delia wrote: | Aiming for August, or so I've read | AngryData wrote: | No but they seem to be progressing at great speed, atleast | that is my impression from the reading the dwarfortress | main blog for years. | Night_Thastus wrote: | It's interesting to keep seeing DF evolve over time. It wasn't | that long ago that I remember DF was ascii-only, and starting a | new game took several pages of explanation and setup. It seems | like they've streamlined and improved a lot. | | I think there's still a ton of room to go moving foward, UI/UX | design is really hard and the problem of keeping a system | flexible and configurable while also easy to use is no simple | task. | roblh wrote: | For all the dwarf fortress fans out there, check out Songs of | Syx. It's still early access, but it captures a lot of the same | appeal with a slightly more streamlined interface. All built by | one dude as well. | gabythenerd wrote: | It actually looks pretty good! Definitely will give it a try, | kinda looks like Rimworld. | [deleted] | LanternLight83 wrote: | Those who prefer to listen to their articles and news can find | Blind's coverage this post here: | | https://youtu.be/PT7adnfzmSU | | https://youtu.be/QdDxuU0rVvE | royaltjames wrote: | Feelings rant: | | I've played DF since just before the massive z-level update | (2008?) - I was living in a girl's college dorm with my | girlfriend and her roommate's boyfriend that was living there | turned me onto DF and Fallout, etc. | | DF has been the one thing I have turned to over the years as a | therapeutic device when I'm in deep depression and meds/therapy | doesn't feel like it's doing it: the function of procgen | obscurity, guided freedom of choice, and even the simple | repetitive mundane nature of it that doesn't _feel_ like it (even | the looped guitar track) helps me really get through some dark | days. | | I'm worried seeing the steam updates like Tarn is begrudgingly | making UX/UI changes for "the people in our community that can't | handle ASCII" when he is obviously NOT a UX/UI guy (evidenced by | the product of DF itself). The textbox styling look like he's | just adding bland graphics as #goodenough. | | If they patreon'd a $100/month tier where I could support a team | to help translate his brilliant spaghetti into clean, streamlined | frictive processes (militia workflow having broken defaults, | navigation, etc), and maybe even some devs to optimize his legacy | code so embark can handle larger complex sites and maybe CO-OP | (come on I can dream). So much of the flow has always felt like I | have to do this because this is how it is done in DF. | | tldr: I am worried Tarn is not a UX guy, begrudgingly building UX | for DF, when he (and WE) are missing out on a massive opportunity | to build something with less friction and more [FUN]. | OkayPhysicist wrote: | I was under the impression that Tarn's getting outside help for | the Steam Version's UI. | drakythe wrote: | Tarn is not doing the UX outside of any back end coding changes | needed. Kitfox games is doing the UX, which is why this blog | post isn't on Tarn's site. As I read the blogs I believe he is | giving input and making code changes to support information | retrieval, but he isn't the one actually doing the UI and | Graphics. | royaltjames wrote: | Oh thank the gods | kibwen wrote: | Tarn is outsourcing the UI and art. I think the art looks | fantastic, better than any DF tileset I've seen. | Romanulus wrote: | leephillips wrote: | From the point of view of someone who basically never plays | computer games and has almost no interest in them: if I _were_ to | start playing a computer game, this would be the one. I find this | project fascinating. However, if I were to play a computer game, | this would probably be the worst choice, because it would | probably be too interesting and suck up too much time. | rav wrote: | The development of Dwarf Fortress has been fully funded by | donations for well over a decade I believe. I used to donate but | I stopped when I was saving up for a home. It seems their | financial support has been declining since 2020 - maybe it's time | for me to start donating again. | | Donations from the beginning in 2007 through to 2021: | http://www.bay12forums.com/smf//index.php?topic=179406.0 | | Donations in 2022: | http://www.bay12forums.com/smf//index.php?topic=179926.0 | xbar wrote: | Thanks for reminding me to do my part. | kirillbobyrev wrote: | I really hope they would release the game on Steam soon so that | people would just buy the game and the donations won't be | necessary. | | I understand that they might want to polish it but I'm not sure | if polishing is actually worth. The original game has been | continuously getting updates IIUC, so it might be totally OK to | release sooner and then use the same model in Steam. | Jochim wrote: | > I understand that they might want to polish it but I'm not | sure if polishing is actually worth. The original game has | been continuously getting updates IIUC, so it might be | totally OK to release sooner and then use the same model in | Steam. | | I think the platform shapes the user's expectations of what | is acceptable though. If I buy a game on Steam I expect a | certain degree of polish when I download it. If I were to buy | the same game on Kickstarter I might not even expect to be | able to download it for a few months/years. If someone | donates to Dwarf Fortress, they probably already like it in | it's current state and want to see where it goes. | kirillbobyrev wrote: | That makes a lot of sense, but I feel like Steam's "Early | Access" is exactly for that. I can't speak for everyone but | I often buy games there just to support the developers and | don't expect it to be a success (maybe it turns out to be | good, maybe it doesn't; either way, it's too early for a | "full experience"). | | Maybe it changed lately, but plenty of astonishing games | came out of "Early Access" while being rather unimpressive | (though promising) at first. | colinmhayes wrote: | Apparently they plan to release on steam in August. | standardUser wrote: | I like how they've made it look like a game. | karmakurtisaani wrote: | A management simulator disguised as a game. | natly wrote: | I wish people actually did this with real mundane excel-like | work tasks. | bergenty wrote: | It would be awesome if we could get to a point where with | some combination of GPT3+Dalle2/Imagen we could feed it a | task and it would spit out a game version that accomplished | that very thing. | drewcoo wrote: | Bah! Lipstick! | | The pig is the game. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-06-08 23:00 UTC)