[HN Gopher] Vivaldi Mail 1.0: Email client built into the browser
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Vivaldi Mail 1.0: Email client built into the browser
        
       Author : marban
       Score  : 117 points
       Date   : 2022-06-09 16:25 UTC (6 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (vivaldi.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (vivaldi.com)
        
       | jtvjan wrote:
       | Now just add an IRC client, and they've reinvented the Mozilla
       | suite.
        
         | pkulak wrote:
         | Except that Mozilla wrote their own engine.
        
           | jszymborski wrote:
           | I miss Presto :(
        
             | beebeepka wrote:
             | Very fast on super slow embedded devices.
        
         | marban wrote:
         | Not complete without Gopher.
        
           | hoistbypetard wrote:
           | Needs Gemini.
        
         | mosdl wrote:
         | History is a closed loop. Maybe they can build their own
         | browser engine!
        
           | TheRealPomax wrote:
           | "Maybe they can build their own browser again", but the web
           | is not the cute little thing it was back when everyone was
           | writing their own engines. Even a small team literally cannot
           | write a web engine with enough support for the majority of
           | common use cases anymore. It's literally why Vivaldi went
           | with an off the shelf engine and focused on the browser part
           | instead.
        
         | memling wrote:
         | Vivaldi's predecessor, Opera, actually included an IRC client
         | that I used back in the day. I maintained an interest in
         | Vivaldi because Opera Mail was easily the best client I've ever
         | used, and while Vivaldi Mail lacks a few of the features that I
         | appreciated about Opera (e.g., select-to-quote, default top-
         | quoting/bottom-response, obvious text-based emails), it's still
         | far and away the best current desktop application.
        
           | oblio wrote:
           | Opera used to have a torrent client.
        
       | z3t4 wrote:
       | RIP Opera mail, where you could sort mail using Bayesian filters
       | and everything was grouped by date.
        
         | pornel wrote:
         | Opera Mail was awesome. I've used it while I was involved in
         | W3C, and I could easily manage the barrage of bikeshed in
         | multiple mailing lists thanks to its deep tree view of threads
         | with fine-grained mute for any subtree.
         | 
         | Nowadays all clients flatten email threads to a single list,
         | and that becomes unmanageable beyond a handful of e-mails ;(
        
       | c_prompt wrote:
       | I continue to question why email clients with calendar, contacts,
       | and tasks functionality don't have local sync integrated with
       | Android or iPhone. Having said that, outside those "basic"
       | integrated functions, my top 3 requirements to switch from
       | Outlook are:
       | 
       | - Full encryption integrated into the client for all data (e.g.,
       | I don't want Windows Search able to index the mail so someone has
       | access when the client is closed/unencrypted; I also remember
       | testing Thunderbird years ago and was able to go into the
       | individual unencrypted .eml files [I think that's what they were]
       | and read the messages without having Thunderbird opened)
       | 
       | - Full local sync with Android/iPhone (i.e., home WiFi,
       | Bluetooth, or USB cable); it still amazes me that Thunderbird
       | still doesn't have this built-in
       | 
       | - Xobni-like functionality (e.g., showing all emails and
       | attachments to/from sender when clicking on an email, keyword
       | searches); yes, I know the plugin is still available but it
       | doesn't work properly with current Outlook versions
        
       | morsch wrote:
       | Well, I'm trying out Vivaldi on Android. I've been using Firefox
       | for, well, forever, but the tab handling[1] is bad enough that
       | I'm willing to jump ship.
       | 
       | So far it's... different? The tab handling is better, and I think
       | I like having actual tabs in a mobile browser. I'm disappointed
       | that the tab groups don't work as well as in Chrome. I like the
       | link preview feature, in fact I could imagine all links opening
       | like that by default (but that's not an option).
       | 
       | I don't find it all that customizable, that only seems to be true
       | for the desktop version. For example, I can't get seem to rid of
       | the history button (which is styled like a sidebar button despite
       | opening full screen).
       | 
       | There is no reader mode. There are page actions, which let you
       | apply all kinds of nonsensical CSS effects such as blur. But no
       | reader mode. The built-in content blocker doesn't remove cosmetic
       | annoyances as effectively as Ublock does, which makes me miss
       | reader mode all the more.
       | 
       | There don't seem to be any add-ons.
       | 
       | Overall, not entirely convincing.
       | 
       | 1. https://github.com/mozilla-
       | mobile/fenix/issues/20012#issueco...
        
       | siproprio wrote:
       | Last time I tried to use vivaldi for day to day browsing, I gave
       | up because it was too slow. Have they fixed this?
        
         | TheFreim wrote:
         | I use Vivaldi and there are no speed issues except the initial
         | startup time and new window launch time. Since I always have a
         | browser open on my machine the initial startup time isn't
         | noticed and since I use tabs+tab-groups the new window time
         | also doesn't matter, but it is a real pain when I /do/ want
         | multiple windows.
        
         | niccl wrote:
         | Anecdata: I've been using it for a couple of years and not had
         | any concerns with speed. I don't know what faster would be. I
         | occasionally have to use firefox or something else on corporate
         | machines and Vivaldi doesn't seem any slower than that on any
         | sites I visit.
         | 
         | I do use Pihole to get rid of ads so maybe that's a factor
        
       | aliswe wrote:
       | what did they say about a software that eventually starts to
       | check email?
        
         | srvmshr wrote:
         | Jamie Zawinski's comment is a time tested classic which has
         | survived well e.g. Moore's law or the likes.
        
         | mrweasel wrote:
         | "Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those
         | programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which
         | can."
         | 
         | http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/Z/Zawinskis-Law.html
        
       | leephillips wrote:
       | Vivaldi is my main graphical browser. I don't use the mail
       | client, but I use the feed reader, which shares the interface.
       | It's convenient, but clunky. You can read news from only one
       | window, so if, like, me, you use windows instead of tabs, you
       | have to search through all of Vivaldi's open windows to see which
       | one gives you access to the news feed. The update didn't seem to
       | change anything. I like being able to click on a button to be
       | able to add a site's feed to Vivaldi's list, however.
        
         | TheFreim wrote:
         | > use windows instead of tabs
         | 
         | I've used Vivaldi as my primary browser for a few months now,
         | doesn't speed cause you any issues when using new windows? I
         | really enjoy many of the Vivaldi features but opening a new
         | window is VERY slow for me (on my good PC and laptop, windows
         | and linux so OS isn't the issue).
        
           | leephillips wrote:
           | Yes, absolutely. I mentioned this in another comment here: I
           | get at least a 2-second lag when opening a new window. This
           | is annoying because I prefer to use windows instead of tabs
           | and manage them with my tiling window manager. I'm handling
           | it by, instead of closing a window when I'm done with it,
           | leaving it open to receive a new URL.
        
         | bmarquez wrote:
         | The great thing about Vivaldi's feed reader is that you can
         | subscribe to YouTube channels without an account (and without
         | any ads as well).
         | 
         | https://vivaldi.com/blog/when-it-comes-to-youtube-and-feed-r...
        
           | rcMgD2BwE72F wrote:
           | Nothing special:
           | https://addons.mozilla.org/fr/firefox/addon/feed-preview/
           | gives you the link to subscribe to all the site's feeds from
           | any app/website.
           | 
           | You can also set custom URLs in the add-on preferences to
           | integrate with any online feed reader (e.g
           | https://reader.miniflux.app/bookmarklet?uri=%S). I follow
           | Youtube channels this way.
        
           | jszymborski wrote:
           | I do this (albeit with Thunderbird) and honestly it works
           | pretty great.
        
       | bityard wrote:
       | Despite not being open source, I appreciate that Vivaldi lets you
       | customize its UI and behavior to a reasonable degree. It's the
       | closest thing we have a browser for power users, unlike Chrome
       | and Firefox who actively remove useful options and features in an
       | effort to cater to the lowest common denominator (passive content
       | consumers).
       | 
       | The built-in mail and calendar functionality looks very nice and
       | I'm definitely interested in trying them out.
       | 
       | The main thing I disliked about Vivaldi when I tried it last was
       | that a lot of websites actively try to prevent automatic saving
       | and filling of passwords, against all reasonable logic. Firefox
       | is much better at skirting those efforts, Chrome-based browsers,
       | not so much. Has Vivaldi improved in this regard lately? (Or is
       | there an extension that can help with this?)
        
         | forgotpwd16 wrote:
         | >Vivaldi lets you customize its UI
         | 
         | But still nowhere close to userChrome.css that Firefos has.
         | 
         | >The built-in mail and calendar functionality looks very nice
         | 
         | But does having that functionality built-in rather as
         | extensions offer any advantages?
        
         | avgcorrection wrote:
         | Of course they cater to those awful "passive content
         | consumers"; they need their online bank much more than you need
         | your tiling tabs.
        
         | am_lu wrote:
         | I never had this problem. Using vivaldi full time, it remembers
         | all the passwords (plus my home address and phone number for
         | registering new accounts on shopping sites).
        
         | axolotlgod wrote:
         | Regarding the open source part, Jon has spoken about it on a
         | podcast from last year[0][1]. Basically the only think keeping
         | them from full open-source is the license which they think
         | would make the company possibly fall to another competitor.
         | It's hard being a small business, this makes sense to me. They
         | actively encourage modding of the browser too.
         | 
         | I'm not sure regarding the prevention of automatic
         | saving/filling. I use Bitwarden and in my time using Vivaldi, I
         | haven't had any issues, though maybe someone in the Vivaldi
         | forums[2] would know?
         | 
         | [0]: YouTube link: https://youtu.be/ivDiL9XeDw0?t=3410 [1]:
         | Podcast website: https://destinationlinux.org/episode-243/ [2]:
         | https://forum.vivaldi.net/
        
           | jhasse wrote:
           | Why not use AGPL for the UI code?
        
             | bastawhiz wrote:
             | That doesn't stop someone from using your code to build a
             | compelling competitor product. It just means you need to
             | pay more lawyers to argue about whether the AGPL was
             | violated or not and maybe win a lawsuit.
        
               | chess_buster wrote:
               | GitLab took libgit vom GitHub, didn't they?
        
         | AlecSchueler wrote:
         | In regards UI customisation is there anything like Pentadactyl?
        
         | stjohnswarts wrote:
         | I would say use bitwarden rather than the built in password
         | managers of these browsers, it does a pretty good job and you
         | aren't tied to one browser.
        
       | zeagle wrote:
       | The killer feature that would make me use this would be EWS/OWA
       | support. I have used davmail and evolution to access my work
       | email this way and very few clients seem to be able to do this.
       | Emclient is probably the best but stopped working presumably due
       | to changes on our end so no great windows solution currently for
       | me.
        
       | forgotpwd16 wrote:
       | Related, for anyone wanting a browser that has everything but the
       | kitchen sink, SeaMonkey is still alive.
        
       | eikeegi wrote:
       | For the life of me, I am unable to add an account to Vivaldi
       | Mail. I am not 100% sure, but I am guessing that the error is
       | "ReferenceError document is not defined".
       | 
       | Edit: after restarting, the message is "Mail client startup
       | failed. Error: Not yet support for changing primary key".
        
       | unethical_ban wrote:
       | Vivaldi is my android browser, because Firefox has several bugs
       | and anti patterns there.
       | 
       | If I were reinstalling my desktop from scratch I would consider
       | Vivaldi desktop as well.
        
       | pipeline_peak wrote:
       | 2006?
        
       | Zachsa999 wrote:
       | Everyone be critiquing its software license, speed, Gui, but holy
       | crap tab tiling is the best feature, it increases productivity by
       | a little bit.
       | 
       | How many times to you get confused which browser window is in
       | focus on your desktop
        
         | TheFreim wrote:
         | > tab tiling is the best feature [...] How many times to you
         | get confused which browser window is in focus on your desktop
         | 
         | If I'm just using my browser on a window then tab tiling is a
         | great feature, I've used it quite a bit in Vivaldi, but the
         | second I start using windows other than my browser it gets
         | confusing because I have to remember two sets of bindings.
        
       | encryptluks2 wrote:
       | I see people give Chromium crap, but then you have a browser that
       | is closed source now with access to your email and everyone is
       | okay with that?
        
         | hammyhavoc wrote:
         | Different demographics will critique different aspects of
         | different software. There will be an overlap between them, but
         | it will be relatively small versus the people outside of the
         | overlapping demographics who have used both.
         | 
         | E.g. I have tried Vivaldi, but it not being open source means I
         | don't have a horse in the race. I also don't like Chromium-
         | based browsers. Which really just leaves Firefox, which I also
         | don't like, because Mozilla the ever-increasingly out-of-touch
         | company.
         | 
         | FWIW: I hypocritically use Gmail because the UX is pretty much
         | better than the sorry state of native email clients available
         | on Linux. With that said, I also don't use email for anything
         | sensitive, that goes via Matrix. Would I give access to my
         | Gmail to Vivaldi? No.
        
         | TheRealPomax wrote:
         | Not sure how "closed source" is something to have a problem
         | with in this context? Outlook is closed source, Apple Mail is
         | closed source, and with rounding we all still use those too?
        
         | michaelcampbell wrote:
         | Not everyone, no, but I'd wager 97% are.
        
       | lizardactivist wrote:
       | To me it makes perfect sense to combine e-mail and browser into
       | one, with a single click you can either view your web tabs, or
       | your e-mail.
       | 
       | I think what stopped me from switching to Vivaldi last time was
       | lack of secure DNS with DoT or DoH, and no control over TLS 0RTT,
       | which is a critical security hole masquerading as a performance
       | optimization.
        
       | kelthuzad wrote:
       | I would prefer a Vivaldi light version without all the bloat.
        
       | programmarchy wrote:
       | For a minute, I thought this was a web app that did POP/IMAP/SMTP
       | in the browser without a server backend, but I suppose that
       | wouldn't be possible without browser extensions.
        
       | geocrasher wrote:
        
         | hfsh wrote:
         | Honestly, mail, notes, and calendar are the things that _do_
         | make sense in a browser for me. Old-school Opera style.
         | 
         | Noways we basically do the same anyway, but just in a browser
         | window, not locally.
         | 
         | [edit: and RSS feeds. RIP]
        
           | memling wrote:
           | > [edit: and RSS feeds. RIP]
           | 
           | Vivaldi has an integrated RSS reader and Reading List.
        
         | unethical_ban wrote:
         | Are you under 25? This "suite" style of World Wide Web tooling
         | was quite popular at the turn of the century. It may not be
         | your style, but I'm surprised at the surprise.
        
           | geocrasher wrote:
           | Nope, 45. I've seen this come full circle. Hated it the first
           | time around too.
        
             | hammyhavoc wrote:
             | Yeah, wasn't keen the first time around either. Always felt
             | like a compromise. I like an app for each task, otherwise
             | it just feels like using a blunt knife to cut something
             | tough, for want of a better analogy.
        
         | eddieroger wrote:
         | Why reply then? Just move on. I don't think this is a product
         | for me, either, but I was curious enough to click through and
         | make that determination, and decided against telling the world.
         | If you're so disinterested that you don't even want do that,
         | why reply?
        
           | geocrasher wrote:
           | Probably for the same reason you replied to _me_ , oddly
           | enough. Funny how that works.
        
             | eddieroger wrote:
             | I replied to you out of curiosity, not because your comment
             | wasn't for me. I genuinely want to know.
        
               | geocrasher wrote:
               | Fair enough, sir. Sorry for the snark. It's one of those
               | things. I edited my original comment to explain why I
               | posted.
        
       | longrod wrote:
       | I don't see how this is any better than opening a browser tab
       | with a mail client in it? But putting that aside here were a few
       | problems with Vivaldi and their Mail client the last time I tried
       | it.
       | 
       | 1. Vivaldi is slow. It's so slow that you could open 2 tabs on
       | Brave/Chrome before it opens.
       | 
       | 2. Side loading speed, memory and CPU usage is a lot more
       | compared to other chromium based browsers. Don't know why.
       | 
       | 3. And UI. There are so many options in settings. So many options
       | and yet very few of them are something I'd want to change or
       | adjust. I can't skin Vivaldi like Firefox. There are a few
       | toggles and sliders but their overall effect to the UI is
       | minimal.
       | 
       | 4. Not to mention that the UI is in no way fancy or unique. But
       | that's just personal preference. I like Chrome's simplicity. It
       | gets out of the way. Vivaldi makes sure you notice the chrome.
       | 
       | 5. And then the mailing client. I was really excited to try it
       | out so I logged in via Gmail. As email accounts are these days,
       | it contained thousands of emails. The surprising thing was
       | Vivaldi started syncing all of them. Literally downloading
       | thousands of emails. For no reason other than offline search? Is
       | that really a good enough reason to make the user wait centuries
       | while you index all their emails? Maybe they have added some
       | option to specify which folders you want synced.
       | 
       | 6. Aside from that, it was really buggy. Opening emails,
       | composing, etc. Now that it's out of beta I hope those are fixed.
       | 
       | I went to Vivaldi for the UI. I had heard it was customizable. I
       | left Vivaldi while it was still loading...
        
         | TheRealPomax wrote:
         | The same benefit of any other mail client: you don't have to
         | open a tab that connects to the internet to download and sync
         | just enough data to show "that" there are updates, but not
         | "what" those updates are until you click through to something
         | that then needs to pull data to show those changes.
         | 
         | The real question is "why is this better than a standalone mail
         | client" like Thunderbird, Apple Mail, or even the hot mess that
         | is Outlook. To which the answer is "depending on how you do
         | mail, it might not be better at all. But if you use Vivaldi
         | already, or if you miss the days of Netscape Communicator 4.7,
         | or you wish you had a mail client that got updated based on
         | user feedback more than once every few years, then this might
         | be something worth looking at for you.
        
           | vorticalbox wrote:
           | > why is this better than a standalone mail client
           | 
           | In my case its because I always forget to open it or I close
           | it by mistake.
           | 
           | I'm always in my browser, github, documentation, jira. so
           | having it in my browser means I have one less thing to
           | remember.
        
         | keb_ wrote:
         | > I don't see how this is any better than opening a browser tab
         | with a mail client in it?
         | 
         | What mail client are you comparing this to? At least compared
         | to most webmail clients I've used, these points from press
         | release are obvious enhancements:
         | 
         | * Combine all your email accounts and manage them easily from a
         | single client
         | 
         | * Indexed offline mail access
         | 
         | * Built-in feed reader
         | 
         | * Optionally offline calendar
         | 
         | I can't speak to the performance issues you've had since I
         | haven't used Vivaldi. I find offline access and backups of
         | e-mails important, personally.
        
           | pjerem wrote:
           | Fastmail web client is really nice IMO : clean and fast.
        
         | josefresco wrote:
         | >1. Vivaldi is slow.
         | 
         | Vivaldi is not slow. I use Chrome, Firefox and Vivaldi every
         | single day and haven't notice a single hesitation or lag when
         | launching it. Do you have a very slow PC?
        
           | dubcanada wrote:
           | I have noticed Vivaldi consumes vastly more memory and CPU
           | resources.
        
           | kitsunesoba wrote:
           | One could argue that if an app in a class of apps is slow on
           | given hardware while others are not, it's slow, particularly
           | for something as basic and essential as a web browser.
        
             | TheRealPomax wrote:
             | One could, but that's not the argument that was being made.
             | I too use Firefox, Chrome, and Vivaldi on a daily basis and
             | one of those three feels slower than the other two due to
             | when UI aspects update, and it's not Vivaldi.
        
           | longrod wrote:
           | Last version I tried (5.4 or something), it took >10 seconds
           | to open. I didn't have too many extensions either. My PC is
           | far from slow since Chrome/Brave open in <2 seconds.
        
             | riidom wrote:
             | The startup time is indeed pretty slow, but otherwise it's
             | fast, which is what matters for me. I restart Vivaldi
             | usually after it got updated, or I reboot my PC, so it
             | doesn't bother me a lot honestly.
        
         | Normille wrote:
         | >I don't see how this is any better than opening a browser tab
         | with a mail client in it? But putting that aside here were a
         | few problems with Vivaldi and their Mail client the last time I
         | tried it...
         | 
         | It's not. it's much much worse. I've just spent about an hour
         | of my life i'll never get back, trying to setup some of my
         | throwaway email accounts in Vivaldi to save opening WebMail
         | when I want to check them. A couple of the accounts threw up
         | server errors requiring me to visit a URL to authorise the
         | client [ie. Vivaldi] to access the accounts via IMAP.
         | 
         | Vivaldi showed the server message but made it so that the
         | message text [including the URL I was supposed to visit, which
         | ended with a long alphanumeric string] was not selectable.
         | 
         | Nor could I 'view source' to copy/paste it that way
         | 
         | Nor could I print the page to PDF to try and retrieve it from
         | there.
         | 
         | Nor could I save the data I'd entered for that account, so I
         | could come back to it later.
         | 
         | So I was left with the choice of painfully transcribing about
         | 100 char alphanumeric string by hand [for 2 separate accounts!]
         | to go to the required authorisation URL, or throw Vivaldi in
         | the bin. Guess which option I chose?
         | 
         | Incidentally. There's a special place in hell reserved for
         | developers who make text on error messages and alerts non-
         | selectable!
        
         | lmkg wrote:
         | > I don't see how this is any better than opening a browser tab
         | with a mail client in it?
         | 
         | One big benefit is the dedicated Side Panel. Keep the folder
         | view visible on the left while you browser.
         | 
         | Another benefit, which may or may not matter to you in
         | particular, is that the client can handle multiple email
         | accounts without mixing them. This generally isn't possible in
         | a webpage unless there's a single service that has access to
         | all mail accounts, which isn't desirable for privacy & security
         | reasons. But this is admittedly a niche feature.
        
           | memling wrote:
           | > Another benefit, which may or may not matter to you in
           | particular, is that the client can handle multiple email
           | accounts without mixing them. This generally isn't possible
           | in a webpage unless there's a single service that has access
           | to all mail accounts, which isn't desirable for privacy &
           | security reasons. But this is admittedly a niche feature.
           | 
           | Also nice is that you can tile the original email and the
           | response side by side for sake of context, rather than having
           | to scroll excessively.
        
         | leephillips wrote:
         | You went to Vivaldi for the customizable UI, but list that as
         | one of its defects. There are "so many options".
         | 
         | That's the point, and the reason I use it, despite its relative
         | heaviness and slowness.
        
         | memling wrote:
         | > 5. And then the mailing client. I was really excited to try
         | it out so I logged in via Gmail. As email accounts are these
         | days, it contained thousands of emails. The surprising thing
         | was Vivaldi started syncing all of them. Literally downloading
         | thousands of emails. For no reason other than offline search?
         | Is that really a good enough reason to make the user wait
         | centuries while you index all their emails? Maybe they have
         | added some option to specify which folders you want synced.
         | 
         | You can un/subscribe to IMAP folders in Vivaldi. The mail
         | options tab also has a toggle for downloading messages for
         | offline searching and uploading sent messages to the
         | appropriate folder.
         | 
         | I'm personally not a huge fan of IMAP, though I've largely
         | avoided the convergence of phone and computer; I still prefer
         | to have my email offline on a single device, though I think
         | these days that's a minority position. I've found that offline
         | clients do a better job of searching email and contact
         | management, and I have ready access to the raw text of the
         | email in case I want or need to find something custom. It also
         | enables me to make on-site backups.
         | 
         | > I went to Vivaldi for the UI. I had heard it was
         | customizable. I left Vivaldi while it was still loading...
         | 
         | Yeah, with a sufficiently large inbox--or maybe expansive
         | browsing habits?--I would guess Vivaldi probably is a bit
         | slower than some of the alternatives. But my usage patterns
         | accommodate this pretty easily by rarely opening and closing
         | the browser (after all, it's my email client). My browsing
         | experience is usually very fast because I disable Javascript
         | and cookies by default, so I haven't really noticed any
         | differences compared to more common browsers.
        
         | andai wrote:
         | Disclaimer: It's been a while since I looked into this stuff so
         | there are probably some inaccuracies below.
         | 
         | Have you ever used Opera back in the day? (mid 2000s, before
         | Chrome came out.) AFAIK Vivaldi is made by the same guy who
         | made Opera, being its spiritual successor. (Opera also had
         | builtin email, note-taking etc.) IIRC opera itself was sold to
         | a Chinese company and is now basically a Chrome reskin? (It
         | used to have its own rendering engine, which was faster in some
         | benchmarks.)
         | 
         | As for why Vivaldi is slow, the UI is done in JS (also possibly
         | nodejs?) rather than C++ in the interest of development speed,
         | but at the cost of performance and memory usage.
         | 
         | I did quit using it due the lag on my older machine though. Now
         | that I've upgraded my hardware I might give it another spin!
        
           | smusamashah wrote:
           | I used opera as main browser from Opera 5 to Opera 10. Use to
           | have Opera mini on my J2ME phone as well. With every new
           | version, the stack of bugs from previous versions was piling
           | up and features were being reduced or getting lost to bugs.
           | There were bugs in mouse gestures which was my main way to
           | navigate Opera. Stopped using it when Chrome came.
           | 
           | If you remember, at some point Opera even use to ship custom
           | build for you. With name or custom title or something, don't
           | remember the exact customization.
           | 
           | My most used utility in Opera use to be notes and irc client
           | which I used to ask questions basically. Never used mail
           | though. Vivaldi promise features at the cost of performance.
           | I have tried to use it 2 or 3 times. It feels sluggish, every
           | click feels late. Can't use all the packed in features like
           | that. Opera was always fast, Vivaldi is just not.
        
           | netsharc wrote:
           | I'm a tab-hoarder and Vivaldi with 4-5 windows and 100 tabs
           | is fast on a Zen 2 Ryzen CPU, except when using the F2
           | shortcut key (it's a Spotlight-like quick menu), after
           | entering a tab title I'm searching for, I have to be very
           | patient as it freezes for several seconds while iterating
           | through all the tabs. If I click on any other UI element or
           | any other Vivaldi window , it crashes...
        
       | szundi wrote:
       | Tried months, maybe a year ago. Could not handle my 15 year old
       | corporate email accont with 300k emails.
        
       | blameitonme wrote:
       | I'd use vivaldi if they improve their ui
        
         | memling wrote:
         | > I'd use vivaldi if they improve their ui
         | 
         | Suggestions?
         | 
         | The interfaces are pretty customizable, so it's surprising to
         | find that this is a particular problem--unless there's
         | something specific.
        
           | blameitonme wrote:
           | i honestly don't like their icons and paddings around the
           | objects, maybe I'm nitpicking but those things go straight to
           | my head.
           | 
           | Didn't know that they allow changing the css, will try that
           | later
        
             | memling wrote:
             | > i honestly don't like their icons and paddings around the
             | objects
             | 
             | Under Appearance is "User Interface Zoom."
        
           | sphars wrote:
           | One of the biggest complaints I've seen (and I've experienced
           | firsthand) is that because Vivaldi is using a completely
           | custom UI for their browser chrome, it's much slower than
           | other other chromium-based browsers. For me, it takes 2-3
           | seconds from starting the application to being able to use
           | it, thanks to the rendering is has to do.
           | 
           | Though I still use Vivaldi thanks to all the customization it
           | offers.
        
             | taylodl wrote:
             | Isn't a browser something you always have running?
             | Genuinely curious. Yes, Vivaldi takes a couple seconds to
             | launch, but how often do you launch your browser? For me a
             | browser is one of those applications I'm always running and
             | I rarely shutdown my computer except when applying updates
             | so the launch time doesn't really affect me. Just wondering
             | what you're doing different than I.
        
               | hammyhavoc wrote:
               | When I work on audio, I only have my DAW open. I'm sure
               | modern hardware can handle it, but force of habit really.
        
               | leephillips wrote:
               | The slow startup applies to new Vivaldi windows, too,
               | unfortunately. This affects me because I use windows
               | instead of tabs for the most part. Tabs open quickly, but
               | opening a new window is a 2-second lag.
        
         | oxff wrote:
         | I'd use Vivaldi if it wasn't so very slow.
        
           | josefresco wrote:
           | I don't get this. 3 comments (so far) from people claiming
           | slowness. I've been using Vivaldi for my "time wasting"
           | browser (Hacker News, Reddit, Techmeme etc.) for quite some
           | time and never see any slowness. I launch it dozens of times
           | each day. I have a 2+ year old i7-9750H with 16 GB of RAM and
           | I always have Chrome with 4 tabs min, and Firefox with 2 tabs
           | min open simultaneously with Vivaldi.
        
             | yborg wrote:
             | Perception is reality. One commenter above felt that the
             | "2-3 seconds" it took Vivaldi to start up was intolerable.
             | Every post about this browser is always flooded by people
             | whose main benchmark is that if a browser does not match
             | Chrome on subjective performance, it's shit. I don't get it
             | either.
             | 
             | For me, tab tiling is an absolute killer app, unique to
             | Vivaldi, and the somewhat slower UI performance than Chrome
             | is well worth it just for that.
        
             | TheFreim wrote:
             | I think the people complaining about speed use new windows
             | instead of tabs. I love Vivaldi but new windows take that
             | 2-3 second load time meaning I don't even consider opening
             | new windows outside very specific situations. Tab tiling
             | alleviates this but then I have to remember different
             | focus/bind schemes from my window manager.
        
         | infinitezest wrote:
         | I'd use it if the browser sync worked at all
        
           | memling wrote:
           | > I'd use it if the browser sync worked at all
           | 
           | Out of curiosity, what doesn't work? I've had a few issues
           | where I got logged out, but generally it's been pretty solid
           | since intro.
        
         | sirius87 wrote:
         | If you know CSS, you can tinker with the actual browser UI.
         | 
         | /opt/vivaldi/resources/vivaldi/style/common.css
        
         | TheRealPomax wrote:
         | You know where to find their issue tracker, help them help you?
        
       | alephnan wrote:
       | > A powerful email client built right into your browser.
       | 
       | But I don't see a link to demo this on the web? There are only
       | CTAs to download?
        
         | lmkg wrote:
         | You seem to be misunderstanding. "Built right into the browser"
         | means that it is a feature of Vivalid, which is a browser, like
         | Chrome. This is the _opposite_ of a page. It 's not _through_
         | the browser, it 's _built into_ the browser.
        
       | sergiotapia wrote:
       | Just set up my email and calendar with Vivaldi. I'm probably
       | going to switch from Brave, the features work really well. I miss
       | Opera so much this feels like home. I'm back in 2004. :)
        
         | e9 wrote:
         | Is there a reason why you are not happy with current Opera
         | browser?
        
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