[HN Gopher] The State Finally Letting Teens Sleep In
___________________________________________________________________
The State Finally Letting Teens Sleep In
Author : gadflyinyoureye
Score : 173 points
Date : 2022-06-12 03:20 UTC (19 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theatlantic.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theatlantic.com)
| tailspin2019 wrote:
| > Terra Ziporyn Snider of Severna Park, Maryland, still remembers
| how difficult it was for her son to wake up for his 7:17 a.m.
| first-period class...
|
| > That's about to change in California, when a law--the first of
| its kind in the nation--goes into effect on July 1 requiring the
| state's public high schools to start no earlier than 8:30 a.m.,
| and its middle schools no earlier than 8 a.m.
|
| Wow. I may need to reassess my definition of "sleeping in".
|
| (Spoken as someone who had incredible difficulty getting to
| school by 8.50am back in the day and who hasn't gotten up before
| 10.30am in the last week!)
| mod wrote:
| I had to get up at 5:30AM in high school to catch the bus in
| time. My bus ride was 45 minutes, and I was the first pickup.
|
| In the afternoon, I was the last dropoff, which I thought was
| grossly unfair.
| input_sh wrote:
| Hah, same for 3/4 years of my high school!
|
| I've managed to train myself to fall asleep on the way back
| and wake up when the noise in the bus quiets down, in between
| the second to last and my stop.
| MarcScott wrote:
| When I was teaching, I'd get into school for about 7:15am (so
| wake up at about 5am), so I could make sure I was prepared for
| my lessons that day. My first class was never before 9am, and
| school ended at 3:30pm.
|
| I just couldn't have coped classes starting that early.
| bonzini wrote:
| What did you do for two hours fifteen minutes?
| MarcScott wrote:
| - Write lesson plans for the department.
|
| - Prepare materials for students to work on.
|
| - Mark students' work.
|
| - Write assessment reports on students for parents.
|
| - Write department action plans.
|
| - Complete SEN reports on selected students.
|
| - Complete CPD in electronics and CS to upskill in the
| subjects I taught.
|
| - Prototype new projects that the students would engage
| with in the future.
|
| I could go on. For about every hour I spent actually
| teaching in a classroom, there was half an hour spent
| planning, assessing or completing admin work. I regularly
| worked 12 hour days, plus weekends, and all those long
| holiday that we were supposed to get.
| bonzini wrote:
| I was talking specifically of the morning.
| filleduchaos wrote:
| Personally, nothing about the answer implies that the
| given list was not tackled in the morning.
| yashap wrote:
| Yeah, my high school started at 8:50 am too, and that still
| felt too early. This article mentioned that Seattle high
| schools used to start at 7:50 am, that seems absolutely nuts.
|
| I'd peg roughly 9:30 am as a good time for high schools to
| start.
| permo-w wrote:
| If anyone had to change their definition of anything based on
| article headlines, the world would be an even more fucked up
| place
| bogota wrote:
| People who have different sleep schedules make the world a
| fucked up place?
| messe wrote:
| Ireland here. My school (which thought entirely through Irish,
| aside from English lessons, obviously, advertised itself as
| starting and finishing early, and it started at 08:30 as well.
| dgfitz wrote:
| I went to a high school in the same district as this one, 7:17
| am was absolutely brutal. I had it timed down to the minute so
| I could sleep as long as possible and not be late once I
| started driving myself.
| copperx wrote:
| My high school started at 8:30 twenty years ago, and it was
| hell waking up to be there on time. Cut a period and let kids
| go in at 10am. 9:30am at the earliest. This, of course, will
| never happen. Even if it did happen, school at 10 implies that
| kids will wake up at 9 or earlier, which is still torturous.
| rpdillon wrote:
| My son's bus comes at 6:35am, classes begin at 7:15. Really
| tough to transition to after elementary, which was an hour
| later.
| bonzini wrote:
| What time does he have dinner and go to bed?
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| Wonder how this sentiment varies across the latitude?
| hstan4 wrote:
| Is waking up prior to 9am really considered torturous? Go to
| sleep by midnight and you still get 9 hours of sleep, that's
| not half bad.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| > Go to sleep by midnight and you still get 9 hours of
| sleep
|
| Assuming you can fall asleep at midnight, sure.
| curun1r wrote:
| A lot of that is sleep hygiene. People rarely had issues
| falling asleep early before electrification. And we've
| made it even worse with TV, computers and smartphones.
| Being very conscious of light consumption and turning off
| devices several hours before sleep makes it pretty easy
| to fall asleep earlier.
|
| I'm one of those people who normally can't fall asleep
| before midnight and struggles to wake up early, but I've
| done a few digital detox programs where I'm without any
| electronic devices, and I'm always amazed at how quickly
| I fall into a schedule where I'm asleep before 9 and
| waking up at 4:30. And it's also amazing how much better
| I feel both mentally and physically when I'm on that
| schedule.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| In my opinion teenagers need time for entertainment and
| socialization. When adults do it it's normal but when
| kids do it it's "TV bad, computer bad, smartphone bad".
|
| If you assume 8 hours per day for school, maybe one extra
| to get to/from school then homework and house chores, how
| much time does that leave for entertainment?
|
| No wonder kids stay up until very late because that's the
| only time they actually have for themselves to do
| something they actually enjoy and is not being forced
| upon them.
| khazhoux wrote:
| 9 hours of sleep every night?? I'd be happy with 6 or 7.
| But I'll need a full-time housekeeping staff and a personal
| assistant, to cook, wash dishes, clean the house, wash
| clothes, take care of house stuff, pay bills, go grocery
| shopping, and everything required for even a basic
| lifestyle, etc.
| johnfn wrote:
| I don't know. My schools first period was 7:50, but that
| meant we'd normally have to wake up around 5:45 in order to
| get ready for the bus, which came by our house around 6:45.
|
| A two hour period from waking to being in first period
| seemed pretty normal, and even if you subtract that from a
| "more generous" 9am, you still get 7am, which is pretty
| brutal on adolescents which are known to have shifted sleep
| schedules.
| zaphod12 wrote:
| What on earth were you doing for an hour in the morning?!
| Even today I can be out the door in 20 minutes and forget
| it, as a teen I probably could do it in 7.
|
| That is also, I think, an abnormally long bus trip, but
| maybe that's my bias.
| janeerie wrote:
| I'm guessing you weren't a female teenager.
|
| I had a very similar schedule to the person you're
| responding to, except our high school started at 7:25.
| I'd take a little extra time in the morning just to get
| my head together before going to school.
| wyager wrote:
| > Is waking up prior to 9am really considered torturous
|
| It certainly was given the default sleep schedule I had as
| a teen.
|
| > Go to sleep by midnight
|
| This wasn't something I could intentionally choose to do as
| a teenager without the use of drugs like melatonin.
| [deleted]
| IYasha wrote:
| Same. Hell on earth. I would never get up fresh no matter how
| early I went to bed. Most of my health problems started there
| and so many possibilities were lost! I'd rather have skipped
| early lessons, get bad marks, but had more energy to study
| later!
| munchenphile wrote:
| School start is really bounded by the start of the average
| parent's workday, unfortunately. Mom and Dad start work at 9
| am. Kids need to be at school before then. None of this 10 am
| start talk makes sense for the kids that aren't on the bus
| line and have parents that drive them to school.
| usrn wrote:
| Yet another problem caused by having both parents work.
| midasuni wrote:
| So how does school stopping at 2:30pm work? How do kids get
| back home?
| IG_Semmelweiss wrote:
| There is no reason for the tyranny of the minority to
| dictate terms on everyone else.
|
| Any parent that wants to torture their kid with a 7am start
| is free to do so.
|
| That choice however shoulsnt dictate the school time for
| everyone else.
|
| Early birds can show up to a long recess pre-class time but
| class should only start at 10am or so
| thatjoeoverthr wrote:
| These are teenagers. Give them house keys and a skateboard.
| avip wrote:
| We live 25 minutes _driving_ from school. ~2h of
| (dangerous) bike ride.
| thescriptkiddie wrote:
| Wow. I would consider it unacceptable living more than 25
| minutes _walking_ from school.
| munchenphile wrote:
| Yeah, sorry. That doesn't work in a huge percentage of
| areas in the US. Heat, cold, darkness, lack of
| infrastructure, and distance.
|
| When the high is 110 F in a Phoenix suburb, you can't ask
| the 14 year olds to skateboard 20 miles to school on a
| country road with no breakdown lane. Similarly, you can't
| ask kids from Maine to skateboard to school in the dark
| on ice.
|
| Whenever this topic gets brought up, a bunch of seemingly
| childless city dwellers think they're making some massive
| revelation suggesting that kids just get their own butts
| to school at a comfortable 10:30 am.
|
| It's actually pretty simple: Both parents work. Somebody
| has to drive the kids to school (hard requirement --
| there's no bus and a bike/skateboard is too perilous).
| Work starts at 9 am. School has to start earlier than
| that.
| naz wrote:
| What time does school finish and why isn't getting home a
| similar issue?
| munchenphile wrote:
| Getting home _is_ a big issue for a lot of families.
| School ends around 3 pm, but most kids do some sort of
| after school activity like a sport to bridge the gap
| until after 5 pm when a parent can come through the
| pickup line. Growing up, there was also just general
| "after-school" programs. Basically just day care for
| after the school day that would cost extra.
| daniel-cussen wrote:
| That's what Americans get for building the suburbs so
| poorly. And Phoenix is uninhabitable, nobody lived there
| before AC.
|
| Let work start later too. Tell that boss he can get with
| the times.
| mjmahone17 wrote:
| Phoenix area schools all are required to provide busses
| for junior high and high school kids that live more than
| 2.5 miles away. That is generally a walkable distance,
| even in the May and August heat. I know, as from middle
| school on I did exactly that (walked or biked ~2 miles to
| and from school in the Phoenix metro).
|
| For longer distances it's really not a big deal to bike
| to school. No one needs to be dropped off by their
| parents, unless they live out of district and chose to go
| to a school other than their local one. And even in that
| situation, many schools open a half hour or more early,
| where kids can be in the library or cafeteria well before
| class starts.
| rglullis wrote:
| And then people say that they live in suburbia because it
| is better to raise children...
|
| And then people say that all the work they do is for the
| benefit of their children...
|
| And then people say that those against mandatory school
| attendance are crazy...
| standardUser wrote:
| Where are school buses in your scenario? I grew up in a
| couple different sprawling suburbs and I could always
| just walk to the bus stop.
| rtkwe wrote:
| House keys and a bus though could work though for 90%+ of
| kids even in places with extreme weather [0] and you
| could have pre-school programs for the 10% that can't
| either because their too far for bussing or can't get
| themselves to the bus, eg those with assorted
| disabilities. You're right though the school start time
| is tied to it's function as free daycare for children so
| parents can work, COVID proved that is a critical part of
| schooling for the modern economy.
|
| [0] Would need to provide more stops and ideally a better
| more consistent schedule so kids could get there just in
| time for the bus. Also for hot weather school picks up in
| the morning so even the hottest places aren't 110+ at
| pickup time.
| mostlylurks wrote:
| Cold weather and darkness are not obstacles. Here in
| Finland the winters are darker, colder, and longer than
| in the vast majority of the US, yet even elementary
| schoolers usually go to school by themselves, often by
| foot or on a bike, sometimes by taking a bus or a train.
|
| The problem that the US faces with respect to this issue
| is primarily caused the design of american cities
| (including the surrounding suburbs), which are laid out
| in a manner that makes the use of a car a practical
| necessity for getting anywhere. You wouldn't have to
| worry about a 20-mile country road to school out of a
| suburb if you instead made the sensible choice of placing
| services (like schools) right where they are needed, as
| european cities tend to do, instead of 20 miles away.
| scottLobster wrote:
| You'd be surprised. Note that Sioux Falls, the capital of
| South Dakota, has substantially lower average lows in
| Winter than Helsinki.
|
| https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/finland/helsinki/clim
| ate https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/usa/sioux-
| falls/climate
|
| Yes our car-dependent infrastructure is an issue, but
| it's infrastructure we've built up for the better part of
| a century. Changing it will be slow and gradual, and in
| the meantime cold weather and darkness are issues in much
| of the country. Also hot weather in other parts of the
| country (heat stroke can be a serious concern in the
| Southwest)
| jds_ wrote:
| Pierre is the capital of South Dakota - though Sioux
| Falls is the largest city.
|
| One statistic I've read for eastern South Dakota is that
| it's one of the worst states to live if you hate extreme
| cold and extreme heat as we have both - sometimes within
| a week of each other!
| herbstein wrote:
| Helsinki is one of the Southern-most cities of Finland
| situated on the edge of a large body of water. Instead,
| take a look at this Not Just Bikes video covering biking
| in Finland during winter: https://youtu.be/Uhx-26GfCBU
|
| The weather in Oulu during winter looks a lot like the
| weather in Sioux Falls, except there's a lot more
| precipitation (snow) in Oulu.
| bbarnett wrote:
| Some of what you say in your second part makes sense,
| although it has absolutely no bearing, nor is it a
| counter argument to the post you are replying to. It
| certainly doesn't refute the parent poster's statements
| about now, today, right now, instead, at best, maybe over
| 30 years, change could slowly be enacted.
|
| However, as a Canadian, some of what you say is just
| plain gibberish. My rural county, not province or
| country, but _county_ , is on its own larger than some
| European countries, with a population of 20,000.
|
| If you tried to put schools within even 10 miles of every
| kid, you'd end up with hundreds of one room schools, with
| a teacher teaching 4 kids.
|
| The problem here is, there is no one size fits all.
| Trying to make suggestions needs to be more location
| specific.
|
| Because when someone starts talking about rural living in
| the US and Canada, Finnish experience has no parallel.
|
| I mean, come on, I've seen farms, just a single farm
| owned by _one man_ in rural Manitobia, larger than
| massive cities!
|
| Millions of acres of land, with just wheat and rye on it!
| Owned by a dude, presumably larger than some countries!
| mostlylurks wrote:
| My comment was not an attempt to refute the entirety of
| what the parent comment stated (since I agree with most
| of it), merely a response to a tangential aspect of it.
|
| I am quite aware that what I mentioned is not feasible
| for some of the more rural regions that exist in the US
| and Canada. However, those constitute a rather small
| portion of the population. It is as you say; there is no
| one-size-fits-all solution, but certain solutions are so
| widely applicable that they could bring significant
| benefit to the lives of most americans and are thus worth
| pursuing (where relevant) even if they do not solve the
| challenges faced by the small number of people living in
| the more rural regions of these countries.
| stale2002 wrote:
| Ok, maybe it is partly caused by the design of cities.
|
| We aren't going to completely redesign all of America's
| cities for the purpose of making sure teens get a bit
| more sleep though, so the point is irrelevant.
| GayforMoleman wrote:
| > That doesn't work in a huge percentage of areas in the
| US. Heat, cold, darkness
|
| Lmao how do people talk like this with a straight face.
| TheSpiceIsLife wrote:
| There are definitely jobs that start before 09:00.
|
| My workplace starts at 06:00 or 07:00 depending on how
| much work is on, there are no other options.
| mellavora wrote:
| I used to bike 7 miles to school in Minnesota, year
| round, back in the days when we had snow. Old "road
| racing" bike (skinny tires).
|
| In the winter wearing a trench coat, a dr. who scarf, and
| beetle-eye mirrored sunglasses so my eyes didn't freeze.
| [deleted]
| Gigachad wrote:
| This is child abuse in America.
| derobert wrote:
| For high school, the youngest of which are 14, probably
| closer to 15? That really doesn't seem like a requirement.
|
| Well, except when they have to get out the door before
| 6:15am...
| mbreese wrote:
| It is also bounded in the other end by sports. If your
| school day goes too late, you won't have time in the
| afternoon/evening for sports practices. So, if you still
| need X hours for classes, you'll need to start early enough
| to get over in time for 1-1.5 hour practices.
|
| (It also applies to other extracurricular sports, but I
| doubt anyone really worries about play practice schedules)
| munchenphile wrote:
| Well, even in a world where theater is taken as seriously
| as sport, at least you can do theater indoors at all
| hours.
|
| You can't really play soccer after dusk if the field is
| outside and you don't have lights. So lots of outdoor
| sports have strict daylight constraints.
| ProjectArcturis wrote:
| You could do sports in the morning instead.
| GoOnThenDoTell wrote:
| Remove the sports, can do that on the weekend
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| We had sports in the morning, starting at 6 AM. It
| definitely helped to wake you up for the rest of the day.
| ghaff wrote:
| It's not just sports. I didn't do sports in high school
| but I had quite a few other after school activities. And,
| no, it wouldn't make sense for everyone who wanted to do
| extracurriculars to come in on Saturday on a regular
| basis--probably driven by parents.
| munchenphile wrote:
| Delusional. Sports are competitive. They require daily
| reps. Sports are also meant to keep kids physically
| active and healthy, and to establish a routine of
| physical activity into their adulthood (alongside
| intellectual productivity). You can't just be physically
| active and healthy on the weekend.
| cgriswald wrote:
| Then have sports be an acceptable substitute to gym
| classes and a regular part of the day. I doubt anyone can
| explain to me why the captain of our football team also
| needed to be in gym class playing flag football with us
| in order to graduate in a way where the answer isn't
| bureaucratic.
|
| At some point you have to decide on an optimum between
| time, sleep, and output.
| munchenphile wrote:
| I'm not defending daily gym class. I'm defending daily
| sports.
|
| I was fortunate enough to go to a high school that did
| not have a gym period, but required all students to play
| an organized sport.
|
| Gym in large high schools is a waste of time due to the
| student to instructor ratio. One frustrated gym teacher
| to 50+ kids playing dodgeball? Of course you're going to
| have theater kids just going through the motions and goth
| kids behind the bleachers smoking cigarettes. It's not
| real exercise.
|
| You need small rosters, organized practices, uniforms,
| referees, fans (students and parents) and intra-school
| competition. It creates seriousness and expectations. You
| can't hide from your coach when there's only 14 kids on
| the roster. You need to do the sprints with everyone else
| and take the drills seriously.
|
| I don't think this scales beyond smaller high schools.
| Not enough facilities, not enough coaches, not enough
| money.
| danenania wrote:
| That sounds great to me as an athlete, but I know there
| are many kids who would hate being forced to be part of
| organized sports.
|
| The important thing is that they get exercise of some
| kind. Maybe just allow them to choose whatever form of
| exercise they want as long as they do something each day?
|
| The school could offer sports but also allow them to
| walk, run, lift weights (when old enough), play tag, do
| yoga, or whatever they prefer.
|
| If a kid truly hates all exercise and refuses to
| cooperate, I guess there's only so much you can do, but
| you could at least remove as much friction as possible
| and try to meet them where they are. Anything that gets
| them moving will offer huge physical and mental benefits
| over just slouching in shitty plastic chairs all day.
| codefreeordie wrote:
| Does that law account for "zero period"? From my quick reading
| of the bill, I think it does not -- so probably not that much
| will actually change. School may start at 8:30, but zero period
| will still start around 7:30, and some schools might create a
| double-zero to go earlier still.
|
| It is absurd how early schools start. Objectively, there was no
| good reason why I had to be on my spot on the field at 7:08a
| every morning only to be done by 2:50p.
| sircastor wrote:
| When I was in high school some 20 years ago, I had to be up
| no later than 6 if I wanted to make my zero period choir
| class. And moving it after school was a no go due to related
| (theater or band) extra-curriculars. Regular school started
| at 7:20. We have exchange students, and it's slightly better
| for them at 7:45...
| dTal wrote:
| I recall reading in numerous places that the reason for that
| is so that the same bus fleet can be re-used to bring the
| elementary school children in at the far more reasonable time
| of 9 AM. I don't know if it's true, but if it is it's a
| uniquely American social phenomenon - inadequate public
| transport, a strange mixture of nanny state mentality and
| indifference to the welfare of children, and penny pinching
| all combining into a perfect storm of chronic sleep
| deprivation for an entire demographic of developing brains.
|
| Another explanation I've read is to make room in the
| afternoon schedule for varsity sports practice. Honestly I'm
| not sure which is worse.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| Is there a reason the US have a specific kind of school bus
| rather than using the same vehicles as public transport?
|
| I would think that using normal public transport vehicles
| means there would be more capacity rolling around that can
| easily be diverted for school bus services during the
| peaks, rather than having a very limited set of special-
| purpose vehicles?
| umanwizard wrote:
| What is zero period?
| samsolomon wrote:
| When I was in high school it was additional training for
| athletes before class. For all our programs it was geared
| towards strength and conditioning.
|
| If I remember correctly, we started around 7am.
| codefreeordie wrote:
| The period before 1st period.
|
| 1st period being the first "official" period of the day,
| which now can't begin before 8:30a.
|
| Originally, it began life as the before-school time for
| athletics and other organized extra-curriculars, but once
| it existed, it became a full-fledged period of instruction,
| as high-achieving students needed to cram ever more
| "elective" courses in order to compete for the top
| university slots.
|
| Even 25 years ago when I was in high school, there was talk
| of creating a double-zero for the athletics, the marching
| band, and the extra-curriculars, so that elite students
| could "still afford" to do them.
|
| In my district, it didn't happen (With zero starting at
| 7:08a, double-zero would have been 6:03a, if I'm
| remembering class length correctly). One of the reasons why
| it didn't happen is that since there is no "honors
| athletics" which can be graded on the 5-point scale, elite
| students couldn't afford the grade points to take them
| anyway.
| Enginerrrd wrote:
| This is a really cynical take.
|
| I took zero period just because I wanted to take
| additional subjects. I also didn't want to waste a period
| on P.E. so I did various varsoty sports after school
| since it counted for a semester each. I took jazz band in
| 0 period.
|
| And I never even bothered applying to college senior year
| of high school.
| mdouglass wrote:
| The law does actually - you can have zero period but it can't
| count towards the instructional time required for students.
|
| It's actually deeply annoying for my daughter's high school.
| It already started 1st period at 830, but since 0 period no
| longer "counts", the day is getting extended by almost an
| hour for all students.
|
| This is from an email from our district earlier in the year:
|
| The exceptions to this are zero period classes. Since zero
| period classes are optional and not required, these classes
| may begin before 8:30 AM; they just cannot be used to meet
| the instructional minute's requirements of 64,800 annual
| schoolwide instructional minutes
| batch12 wrote:
| I think I only made it to 'homeroom' a dozen or so times the
| entire time I was in high-school. I would have love and
| thrived under this.
| robswc wrote:
| I get it... at the same time though, sure it was hard to wake up
| in the morning but that's because I would be up till 12 am
| playing video games, lol.
|
| I can easily see tons of kids going "oh now I can stay up till
| 1-2 am" and as someone that is currently struggling to actually
| fix my sleep schedule after going WFH, its hard to stay on track.
|
| Despite all that though, I do hope this shows potential or at
| least reveals new information.
| ibeckermayer wrote:
| That's their and/or their parent's choice to make, the
| important point is that the system shouldn't be set up in such
| a way that it's impossible for them to live a healthy
| lifestyle.
| robswc wrote:
| How is it impossible currently?
|
| I had stretches where I would sleep/wake at a full 8 hrs and
| in time for school. I would be lying if it wasn't ~90%
| personal accountability of winding down when I needed to.
| Other 10% was if I were sick or had some insomnia which at
| that point wouldn't matter what I did or when school started.
| Even struggle with it now.
| ibeckermayer wrote:
| If school starts at 7:30 and you live an hour away with
| school morning traffic, you'd have to get up at 6am at the
| latest. Given the need for 8-10 hours of sleep
| (particularly for highly active athletes who need the extra
| sleep for muscle recovery), you'd need to go to sleep
| between 8pm and 10pm. My understanding is that its very
| difficult for teenagers to go to sleep before 10 for
| biological reasons, so only a teen with monk like
| discipline could get the bare minimum (and even then that
| might not be enough depending on their exercise regimen).
|
| So yeah it's technically not "impossible", but it's very
| difficult, and it seems to me without good reason.
| grapeskin wrote:
| There's been research that shows teens have something like a
| shifted biological clock.
|
| Even before the era of late night multiplayer games and
| browsing the Facespace and instatoks, teens were staying up,
| partying or prowling the streets. It's been a stereotype since
| the dawn of time that teens go out late at night and are up to
| no good.
| robertlagrant wrote:
| Really? That sounds pretty unlikely with agricultural
| societies getting up at 5, or safe before, say, the 1900s in
| most countries.
| ChikkaChiChi wrote:
| Maybe your stayed up later because that was the time your
| body was at its peak awareness. It could be conditioned
| that way, or it could be built into your genes.
|
| After all, somebody had to stay up and keep watch all night
| when we lived in caves.
| barry-cotter wrote:
| Congratulations, you have reinvented a scientific
| hypothesis. Unfortunately I can't find a related article
| in one minute's search but IIRC even sure extremely small
| groups, less than 10 people there's enough variety in
| sleep patterns that on average someone is awake for all
| but ~30 minutes most nights.
| lupire wrote:
| What? No. Pack animals don't have members who stay up all
| night every night.
|
| Humans who need night watch take turns in short shifts.
| crooked-v wrote:
| Society has always done plenty of things that are hugely
| unfriendly to basic human nature. Historically it's often
| been out of necessity, but fortunately we're well-off
| enough now as a group to afford changing that.
| robswc wrote:
| I've heard of this research. I wouldn't at all doubt it. I
| think 8:30 is perfectly reasonable... I just don't think it
| will have the effects people think it will. Maybe a marginal
| improvement which is fine to shoot for... but I just see too
| many kids choosing an extra hour of games/phone vs sleep.
| bee_rider wrote:
| What's marginal? From the article:
|
| > Places that have already pushed back school start times
| have repeatedly seen positive results. When Seattle's
| public-school district shifted its start time in 2016 (from
| 7:50 a.m. to 8:45 a.m.), students got a median of an
| additional 34 minutes of sleep a night as a result. And in
| Cherry Creek, a Denver-area suburb, high schoolers slept
| about 45 minutes longer on average, and those improvements
| endured even two years after the change.
|
| 34 extra minutes of sleep on 55 is pretty good IMO.
| sperm wrote:
| At least it offers the hope of getting up when there's daylight
| out. Getting up in the dark is so much harder.
| robswc wrote:
| I can agree with this. I did always find it a bit jarring
| that I had to wake up before the sun was even out, lol.
| Thinking about it now you raise a good point. Haven't woken
| up that early in years. I find it 100x easier to wake up when
| I have the blinds open to hit me in the morning.
| tontonius wrote:
| I recommend reading Matthew Walker's "Why we sleep". Needles to
| say, as a sleep researcher, he's a big proponent of schools
| starting later for kids and youth in the formative years.
| Especially to make room for the "late morning REM" sleep that
| appears to be very important for young humans with developing
| brains.
| JonoBB wrote:
| Some (quite a bit) of this book has been debunked. See
| https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/
|
| (For the record, I don't disagree with the premise that
| sleeping patterns do change during the teenage years)
| stevenpetryk wrote:
| That's amazing. My high school started at 7:05. By senior year, I
| began systematically missing first period because I just couldn't
| get up and ready on time without feeling terrible.
| JaceLightning wrote:
| This is the dumbest thing I ever heard. Just like daylight saving
| time.
|
| You can't make teenagers sleep more by changing the number on the
| clock.
| bmacho wrote:
| > You can't make teenagers sleep more by changing the number on
| the clock.
|
| Actually they are changing the position of the sun on the sky.
| blowski wrote:
| From the article, I don't think they're forcing them to sleep
| more, but giving them the option by starting school later.
| JaceLightning wrote:
| From the article:
|
| > Adolescents in the U.S. are chronically sleep-deprived, in
| part because most schools start too early.
|
| The goal of changing the start time is to allow students to
| sleep more.
|
| But changing the number on the clock doesn't mean students
| will sleep more. Allowing students to start at 8am instead of
| 7am will just mean they go to bed and hour later because
| teenagers are terrible about going to bed on time.
| blowski wrote:
| You're massively over-generalising there. Some will do
| that, sure. But this should make it better for some
| teenagers, without making it worse for others. That sounds
| like a good solution.
| thewebcount wrote:
| > changing the number on the clock doesn't mean students
| will sleep more
|
| They aren't changing the number on the clock like Daylight
| Saving Time did. They're changing when you are required to
| arrive. They number on the clocks are staying fixed and
| that's why it's more likely to help.
| itronitron wrote:
| They should just schedule one third of the classes to be
| online and from midnight to 2am.
| ironmagma wrote:
| The thing that changes sleep isn't actually the clock changing.
| It's that in combination with "Our business/school opens at 8
| AM every day" and the sun behaving decidedly different from
| that.
| JaceLightning wrote:
| The sun rises between 5am and 7am where I live.
|
| But anyone who has flown between the East Coast and West
| Coast of the US knows that the sun doesn't determine when you
| feel tired or when you wake up: your sleep hygiene does.
|
| I used to fly to SF from Boston and wanted to go to bed at
| 7-8pm every night and then would wake up at 4am. Not because
| of sunlight but because my body was used to that schedule.
| thewebcount wrote:
| Has it ever occurred to you that maybe you're atypical in
| this way? I've done flights from the US to Europe, and not
| slept during the flight and landed in the morning in
| Europe. While I'm initially tired, I'm unable to fall
| asleep in this situation. I spend the day walking around
| outside and eating at local time. After going to bed just a
| little earlier (wall time) than usual the first day, I'm
| adjusted because of the sun (aka the number on the wall),
| food intake, etc.
| ghaff wrote:
| That's a red eye you're talking about though. Yes, I
| normally try to fight through the day and go to sleep at
| a normalish time for the location. And I'm usually on a
| decent schedule within a day or two.
|
| But if I take a short trip from the East Coast to the
| West Coast in the US, I often go to bed on the early side
| and wake up early.
| mauvehaus wrote:
| It's not just the GP. I've done both US Eastern to EU and
| US Eastern to US Pacific enough times to know how I
| respond.
|
| I find the 3 hour difference to the west coast to be way
| harder to adjust to than the 5 or 6 hour (depending on
| destination) difference to Europe. I'm a zombie for a
| week going to California and spring right back to eastern
| time going home.
|
| Going to Europe, it's about a day to fully kick over to
| the time change in either direction. Admittedly, it's a
| rough day headed east that usually involves an afternoon
| nap, but I've come to despise the three hour change to
| Pacific time far more.
| mod wrote:
| The sun determines my sleep hygiene.
| LikelyClueless wrote:
| Many studies claim the response people have to the
| manipulation of light intensity, color, and duration, does
| effect several aspects of the person. Sleep hygiene does
| seem to play a large role, but the sun is likely the
| largest contributor to the human body's roughly 24 hour
| circadian rhythm.
| JaceLightning wrote:
| Ironically it's the wavelengths at sunrise which have the
| greatest affect. If teenagers are sleeping in they don't
| get to see these:
|
| > Researchers said the wavelengths at sunrise and sunset
| have the biggest impact to brain centers that regulate
| our circadian clock and our mood and alertness.
|
| https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/20022014173
| 1.h...
| BlargMcLarg wrote:
| Absolutely not my experience at all. Something as simple as
| the sun rising up sooner in summer makes me inclined to
| wake up and be active earlier, whereas winter makes me feel
| groggy and mediocre for several hours until the sun is
| actually up.
| JaceLightning wrote:
| The other thing is responsibility.
|
| Tech jobs generally don't have set times to be in. But most
| jobs do.
|
| Teaching teenagers responsibility (to go to sleep on time and
| wake up on time) is an important skill to have.
| wzdd wrote:
| > You can't make teenagers sleep more by changing the number on
| the clock.
|
| As a matter of fact, the article cites data from Seattle and
| Denver which shows that teenagers slept more after schools in
| these areas changed the number on the clock.
| JaceLightning wrote:
| Of course they will right away.
|
| Then after a year or two it will be the same problem again.
|
| Changing the number on the clock to get more sleep is like
| taking out a loan to pay down your debt: sure you will be
| able to pay off your housing and car payment today, but soon
| that loan you took out will come due.
| lelanthran wrote:
| > Of course they will right away.
|
| >
|
| > Then after a year or two it will be the same problem
| again.
|
| According to the article it lasted for _over_ two years.
| NobodyNada wrote:
| > And in Cherry Creek, a Denver-area suburb, high schoolers
| slept about 45 minutes longer on average, and those
| improvements endured even two years after the change.
| akavi wrote:
| You might be able to make them sleep more by having there be
| more time between when the sun goes down and when they have to
| wake up.
|
| Humans aren't totally divorced from biological cycles.
| Supermancho wrote:
| This type of thinking is backwards. Ignoring modern human
| behavior is what has contributed to student (and faculty)
| performance problems for 50+ yrs. Poor performance in the
| earliest classes is a leading indicator for class performance
| overall (similar to broken window theory). Supposing
| (pretending?) that arbitrary time constraints will force
| behavior without confounding effects is the kind of willful
| ignorance that has perpetuated poor academic performance around
| the world.
| JaceLightning wrote:
| Tell me: If you go to bed at 11pm and wake up at 7am every
| day, and then change time zones, do you magically go to bed
| at the new 11pm and wake up at the new 7am?
|
| No, of course not.
|
| Because the times you get tired and wake up have nothing to
| do with an arbitrary number on the wall.
| [deleted]
| blowski wrote:
| There's a big ball of fire in the sky which does have a
| massive impact on us, and those arbitrary numbers on the
| wall are a proxy for that.
| JaceLightning wrote:
| Except it doesn't.
|
| Anyone who has traveled more than one time zone away
| knows this.
| blowski wrote:
| https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20171208-what-
| working-t...
|
| > He says night workers are exposed to low light levels
| during the overnight shift, but as they encounter bright
| natural light on the journey home, their internal clocks
| lock on to the normal light-dark pattern that day shift
| workers are on. "So, you constantly have to override this
| sort of biological drive from the clock saying you should
| be asleep."
|
| https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/seasonal-
| affecti...
|
| > A lack of sunlight might stop a part of the brain
| called the hypothalamus working properly, which may
| affect the production of melatonin, serotonin, and the
| body's circadian rhythms.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6751071/
|
| > Our circadian pacemaker, the suprachiasmatic nuclei
| (SCN) in the hypothalamus, is entrained to the 24-hour
| solar day via a pathway from the retina and synchronises
| our internal biological rhythms. Rhythmic variations in
| ambient illumination impact behaviours such as rest
| during sleep and activity during wakefulness as well as
| their underlying biological processes.
|
| I guess the doctors quoted in these articles didn't work
| in multiple timezones then.
| JaceLightning wrote:
| I'm not arguing that the sun isn't good for you or that
| bright lights don't make you feel of more awake. Of
| course they do.
|
| My argument is that you can override this with good sleep
| hygiene, which teenagers don't have. You have to fix the
| hygiene problem, not the clock problem. They are trying
| to fix the symptoms and not the cause.
|
| However, the ironic thing is you are arguing for
| teenagers to wake up early and NOT sleep in. It's the
| long wavelengths of light at sunrise and sunset that
| reset your circadian rhythm:
|
| > Researchers said the wavelengths at sunrise and sunset
| have the biggest impact to brain centers that regulate
| our circadian clock and our mood and alertness
|
| https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/20022014173
| 1.h...
| Supermancho wrote:
| > I'm not arguing that the sun isn't good for you or that
| bright lights don't make you feel of more awake. Of
| course they do.
|
| Shifting your arguments to different topics is only
| fooling yourself. You bring up points, which are refuted,
| then you claim it has nothing to do with the topic.
| That's disingenuous. Now you can look back and figure out
| where you've misstated the facts and you want to reset
| the conversation. Let's do that.
|
| > My argument is that you can override this with good
| sleep hygiene
|
| That's not an argument. That's a fact everyone agrees on.
|
| > You have to fix the hygiene problem, not the clock
| problem.
|
| This strategy that has been pursued for decades (and you
| have continued to parrot) is an unmitigated failure.
| There is an acute statistical academic penalty for
| setting the arbitrary school "early classes" starting
| time around ~6-7am^. This is primarily used by students
| who are either trying to catch up due to poor past
| performance or to get ahead by those pushing the upper
| bounds. There is a small cadre of students for which this
| schedule aligns with parental obligations, but it has
| been shrinking for decades. Due to the pareto
| distribution, you can guess who makes up the largest
| demographic.
|
| > They are trying to fix the symptoms and not the cause.
|
| Time to explore other strategies, as that's been a
| failure for a host of reasons. Let's start with the
| realities of being an adult vs child->young adult
| (youngling, in aggregate).
|
| Adults manage a stable rhythm via self-training as part
| of a long term strategy that dovetails with stable
| biological development - which is negatively affected by
| other long-term changes like having children, ie mommy
| brain. Parents have to get up earlier than the earliest
| classes to prepare for transport. School transportation
| schedule tend to serve the median start time, not the
| boundary, if you didn't notice.
|
| Younglings have increasing autonomy, hyperactive
| metabolism and erratic hormones. They have poor (or none)
| training for what is likely a temporary time in their
| life, along with the other stresses on themselves and the
| family.
|
| The symptoms are the problem because you cannot address
| the cause. No amount of PSAs are going to help, because
| it's been tried and failed. Like most pundits, standing
| along the side and claiming "that won't work" or "we
| aren't doing X enough!" rather than trying to take a
| different action to generate new data, is compounding the
| failures.
|
| ^My parents and I had me in early classes for a few
| months before we communally agreed to stop. It wasn't
| effective learning for anyone in the classes, to say the
| least.
| Gibbon1 wrote:
| I see it as yet another case where we're cutting against the
| grain of humanity for ascetic reasons. Bonus people in power
| love imposing stuff like that on other people.
| phamilton wrote:
| 7:30am class was only part of the problem. Sports practice before
| school (that would need to conclude before 7:30am class) meant I
| woke up at 5am for much of my high school years.
| ruffrey wrote:
| I recall simply being unable to wake up for first period at 8am
| most days, in late high school. Waking was painful and nothing
| felt better than sleep. However at night, despite efforts at good
| sleep hygiene and consultation from a counselor, i couldn't get
| to sleep before 11 or later. My grades and mood suffered greatly,
| as did the relationship with my poor mother. She battled with me
| day after day, first thing in the morning, to go to school. The
| first few years of college I did not schedule any classes before
| 10am and had effectively perfect attendance. Mood problems faded
| as soon as high school ended.
|
| Even today, in my 30s, a day or two with poor sleep will make a
| noticeable mood dip regardless of circumstances.
|
| But as an older adult, I naturally wake up at 6:00 every morning.
| It was the same for much of my childhood except a few years of
| high school. So perhaps this was a developmental thing.
| maerF0x0 wrote:
| This is exacerbated by an unproductive amount of both homework
| and screen time.
|
| Getting up approximately at sunrise should be fine most people
| assuming they have many of the other factors in place like a wind
| down period, screen time cut off, dark room, low or soothing
| sounds, good temperature etc.
|
| However I cant imagine that for many kids they have all these in
| place, and Id find it hard to believe that anything a high school
| maybe trying to teach them today is going to be more lifelong
| value than maximizing their physical/brain development (until
| 25!) and learning good sleep hygiene.
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| Hmm, mentioning that sunrise is at 4am gets downvoted. I have
| to assume you live in the south.
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| > Getting up approximately at sunrise should be fine
|
| What, 4am?
| colechristensen wrote:
| When your physiology wants you to wake up varies by age and by
| individual. It isn't just a matter of sleep hygiene.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| jxf wrote:
| Thank goodness. May this herald the beginning of an era of
| sensible public school policies. We don't need to be making the
| lives of teens harder than they already are.
| logicalmonster wrote:
| My overall opinion on this is mixed.
|
| > The Good: I think even mentioning the lack of sleep for kids as
| a problem is a good first step. As far as physical health,
| learning, and daily mood goes, good sleep is a really big part of
| the equation.
|
| > The Bad: Despite having a later wakeup time, I think most teens
| probably will not get a whole lot of extra sleep. Kids are kids
| and will stay up later to play games, watch movies, or do
| whatever else they love to do knowing that they have more time to
| sleep in.
|
| > The Ugly: I think acknowledging the mental health crises among
| many kids is a good step, but I don't think you're going to
| really fix anybody who might be in a danger zone by telling them
| that they have the option to wake up a bit later. I sincerely
| doubt that a sleep deficit is the issue that inspires extremely
| negative life-threatening behavior among anybody.
|
| PS: As a practical matter, was it mentioned in this article if
| ending times for schools were changed by this new policy? If it
| was, I didn't notice it, and that's what I wanted to see
| mentioned here. I'm just thinking about my own past experience,
| but if school begins say an hour later but also ends an hour
| later, I'm not sure that would have been a net benefit to school-
| aged me. It would have been very difficult for me to get all the
| way out to my soccer practice or work my part-time, after-school
| job if the school's ending time was pushed back.
| mdouglass wrote:
| re: your PS - it will depend on the school district, but my
| daughter's high school is significantly extending their day.
| They were allowed to leave this year at 225 (with an optional
| 7th period that went to 310). Next year, they end at 329. And
| she gains no benefit in the morning because they already
| started first period at 830.
| bee_rider wrote:
| About the ugly: While I don't think just being tired is the
| essential cause of many problems, it does seem like it could be
| pretty wide-ranging. So, if every decision you make is a little
| bit worse and your emotional state is always just a little big
| degraded, this seems like it could compound pretty easily --
| you'll be dealing with the consequences of your previous poor
| decisions while still tired and irritable.
| walkhour wrote:
| > Despite having a later wakeup time, I think most teens will
| probably not get a whole lot of extra sleep. Kids are kids and
| will stay up later to play games ...
|
| This needn't be true, the natural time for teens to go to sleep
| is 10-11pm [0]. So at this time they may feel tired, and go to
| sleep.
|
| [0] https://www.uclahealth.org/sleepcenter/sleep-and-teens
| cgriswald wrote:
| I think you're overstating what the source is saying a bit.
| Yes, that's _literally_ what the source says, but it feels
| exemplary and to the extent it 's true, it's true because of
| a lot of hidden assumptions. The source is basically saying
| "a normal teen in a vacuum gets sleepy at this time" but it
| points out many ways in which teens are not in any such
| vacuum and how they should be trying to get into and stay in
| that vacuum. A real teen doesn't live in that vacuum.
|
| _Teens are already staying up past their natural sleepiness
| time._ Sleepiness is not the problem.
|
| The problem with teens and sleep is not just that we expect
| them to get up early. We also expect them to go to school, do
| sometimes hours of homework, do as many extra-curricular
| activities as they can cram onto a CV, have jobs, spend time
| with family, and they usually want to have fun with friends
| and date. They're already sleeping as much as they can. (Many
| of them are also abusing caffeine and other drugs to manage
| all of it.)
|
| Humans have two mechanisms for sleepiness. The first is a
| 'time since last sleep' function that builds sleepiness over
| time. This is delayed in teen. (This mechanism will respond
| poorly to later start times.) The second is a 'has it gotten
| dark' function that responds to the daylight. This is _also_
| delayed in teens.
|
| Very likely many teens will simply stay up later. They'll
| have to in order to keep doing all they want and are expected
| to do.
|
| However, the delayed start is still a good thing because it
| is much better aligned with the second mechanism of
| sleepiness, gives them more opportunities for sleep, and will
| likely reduce their morning grogginess, even if they don't
| get more sleep overall.
| dangus wrote:
| Regarding the bad you listed, the article addresses it and
| basically debunks your concern. Schools that made the change
| saw teens getting more sleep.
|
| > When Seattle's public-school district shifted its start time
| in 2016 (from 7:50 a.m. to 8:45 a.m.), students got a median of
| an additional 34 minutes of sleep a night as a result. And in
| Cherry Creek, a Denver-area suburb, high schoolers slept about
| 45 minutes longer on average, and those improvements endured
| even two years after the change.
|
| I'm also not sure what's so "ugly" about your "ugly" point.
| Starting school later isn't about solving every possible
| problem for at-risk kids.
| logicalmonster wrote:
| > I'm also not sure what's so "ugly" about your "ugly" point.
|
| A very short version of my answer to this is that it's a big
| deal because if this sort of action is portrayed to the
| public as solving the mental health crisis in teens, then the
| real reasons for many issues might be completely ignored. The
| bureaucracy might claim a false victory and then hope
| everybody moves on and ignores some bigger issues that
| creates such an unhealthy environment in schools.
| colechristensen wrote:
| Teenagers wanting to stay up late is natural, not the product
| of some social evil but a built in feature of being a teenager.
| madeofpalk wrote:
| Less of a feature and more of a "known issue".
|
| A known issue that I'm still trying to sort out in my 30s.
| normac2 wrote:
| Seems like this could create a group of kids who were formerly
| driven to school and live out of schoolbus range, but their
| parents go to work too early to be able to drive them now.
|
| I wonder if there are provisions for this in the new plan (e.g.,
| the school opens early for kids to just hang around if they still
| need to be dropped off early).
| bobthepanda wrote:
| It is really unfortunate that we have created a society and
| physical landscape where children cannot get to school on their
| own.
|
| In 1969, 48% of children walked or biked to school. In 2009
| that figure is 13%.
| http://guide.saferoutesinfo.org/introduction/the_decline_of_...
|
| Even if you happen to live close enough to a school and the
| walking environment is safe, it's not unheard of for Child
| Protective Services to be called on parents for letting their
| children be autonomous.
|
| And with the decline in routine physical activity we are now
| generally less healthy.
| ryandrake wrote:
| We need penalties for these nosy people who call Child
| Protective Services when there is _clearly_ no danger to the
| child. In some states, you can get in serious trouble (jail
| time) for abusing E-911 service, why can 't people get in
| trouble for falsely reporting a child who they know is not in
| danger? The trick is how do you define "clearly"? I'd at
| least expect a caller to be able to articulate a specific
| danger they observed the child was in (someone following them
| or the child was not dressed for the weather, and so on). Not
| just "he's alone therefore help".
| sigstoat wrote:
| every school i attended was open well in advance of the start
| of classes so as to serve breakfast to kids who ate it there.
|
| at the elementary school level there were even some enrichment
| programs beforehand.
|
| even if some kids still have to wake up early, they can benefit
| from not having to have to take tests until a bit later in the
| morning.
| Gibbon1 wrote:
| I remember high school back in the 1970's. Classes started at
| 8:30 and had 6 periods. But the last one was all optional
| classes. It's deranged they didn't flip that.
|
| Feels like start times have gotten worse. Especially due to
| paranoia about letting kids walk around by themselves. Busing
| and low density suburbs. And school closures. Probably also
| administrators impulse to inflict control on students and
| teachers.
| Mountain_Skies wrote:
| I don't know about California but I know in the state I grew up
| in, there was a legal requirement for the school to send a bus
| to pick you up if you lived in the school district and were
| further than walking distance from the school. Several times
| our bus ended up with a new home added to the route midyear,
| which required some tricky maneuvering on dirt roads and
| created a longer ride for anyone whose stop came after those
| new spots.
| jorl17 wrote:
| I think I very rarely woke up earlier than 7h30 or 8h30 as a kid.
| I recall school starting usually at 9am.
|
| Nowadays I struggle to get up before 10h30[1] (I set all my
| meetings starting at 10h30, and usually wake up 10 minutes before
| them -- the wonders of remote working). I have never been a
| morning person, and I cannot believe that there are parts of the
| world where children are forced to wake up so early. I'm sure
| it's fine for many, but it must be equally terrible for others.
|
| In my college days, classes equally started at 9h, but I almost
| always managed to get them later. There was this own professor
| who insisted on having his class tart at 8h30 which is incredibly
| frustrating: he was a drunkard who, in spite of being the only
| one to haave a class start before 9AM, was always late, and AFTER
| 9AM. I got up way earlier because of this garbage human.
|
| (I still very clearly hold a grudge against him, because he
| marked my final grade a 19.4/20; I'm sure he did it because he
| didn't want to give me a 20).
|
| [1] I can get up before 10h30 fine, and sometimes I get up as
| early as 6h30 "as needed". But it's definitely not good for me
| "in the long run" and renders me less productive overall. It is
| clear my natural rhythm is going to bed at 2h-4h and waking up at
| 12h-14h. Alas, I go to bed at 2h-4h and wake up 10h-12h. I
| suppose I'll die younger, but such is life.
|
| It's not the amount of sleep, because I've often been able to do
| great on just 3-5h of sleep consistently. I can sleep 5h, 10h,
| you name it, and it doesn't matter if I wake up early. Waking up
| early really ruins me.
| deathanatos wrote:
| Welp, my high school started at 7:50am. Would wake up well
| before sunrise for it. It was a struggle to stay awake.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| I was never a morning person...until I chose to wake up at 5am
| every day. Now I'm a morning person.
|
| I think we are flexible enough to be whatever we want.
| BlargMcLarg wrote:
| I was never a morning person until I chose to wake up at 6AM.
| Then I was still not a morning person and hated the first 4
| hours of the day even more.
|
| Then I went back to past 9 and was happy.
| jolmg wrote:
| If you normally wake up at e.g. 10, did you fall sleep 4
| hours earlier than normal when trying to wake up at 6?
| BlargMcLarg wrote:
| Obviously. Comparing different sleeping times without
| keeping the same length would be way too obvious for
| people to point out as a problem, even if forcing oneself
| to sleep earlier isn't as easy as people try to push.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > I think we are flexible enough to be whatever we want.
|
| There are definitely _some_ people out there who have
| severely distorted sleep schedules that won 't respond to
| adjustments.
|
| However, I think it's far more rare than a lot of people
| think. There are a lot of people whose shifted sleep
| schedules come mostly from lifestyle factors, not genetics.
|
| This becomes most obvious when you watch new parents adapt.
| Most of the "genetic late sleepers" I knew mysteriously
| became natural morning people after having kids.
|
| I had a coworker who insisted he simply _could not_ show up
| to work before 11AM due to his sleep genetics. That is until
| he went on a camping trip for a week and his sleep schedule
| completely normalized. He was showing up at 9AM wide awake
| (and happy!) for several weeks after that, but then slowly
| shifted back to his 11AM arrivals as his sleep schedule
| deteriorated from his lifestyle. The culprit, in his case,
| was late-night internet usage that he wouldn 't give up. At
| least he recognized and accepted the actual problem later.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Sounds about right. Sleep disorders are rare yet everyone
| thinks they have a sleep disorder. It's most likely poor
| habits. The best thing for me was having a routine.
| jorl17 wrote:
| I have tried this. In fact, I have lived for several months
| consistently waking up at 7AM because I had to. I functioned,
| it was okay, I was productive and I'd say happy, but
| eventually I drifted back to my natural schedule and I
| realized ALL that I was missing out on and had forgotten
| about. People change. My mother used to be a "party girl" and
| she says that her life completely changed when I was born.
| She started waking up early, like 7AM, and that was far out
| of her schedule (I think she lived like me, to be honest). So
| I'm sure I may one day change, but that hasn't happened yet,
| even after living for the aforementioned months in a very
| different way[1].
|
| But I can very confidently say that while I can certainly
| function, be productive at my job, be liked by my peers, and
| be happy waking up at 7AM, I can be much better at
| everything, and much happier (and even creative!) if I just
| follow my more natural rhythm.
|
| To be honest, I've grown particularly tired of some morning
| people insisting that if I just "tried it", it would "work"
| and that the morning is so much better and we can adapt. That
| I "need" to change because that's how "everyone works". I did
| try. It didn't work as advertised. Functional, even happy,
| but in nearly every way inferior to what I am now. Moreover,
| it's been obvious for a long long time, in many ways, that
| I'm not like "everyone else". Look at it from whatever angle,
| and I'm not. It's life, I live with it and enjoy it, and I
| guess that's what ultimately matters.
|
| [1] Someone below mentioned this is based on the environment
| and context, and not genetics. I can certainly agree, but my
| environment won't change overnight, nor do I want it to. My
| life right now works much better, and makes me happy with my
| current schedule. Perhaps in the future it won't be like
| that.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| I wonder how much of this problem is caused by our sedentary
| lifestyles.
|
| I am a bit of a night owl myself, but I sleep much more soundly
| if I have a lot of physical activity across the day. If I walk 20
| 000 steps and spend an hour in the gym, I have no trouble falling
| asleep.
|
| Teenagers being the bombs of energy that they are, might need
| some 5-6 hours of physical activity to actually tire and sleep
| well. But a typical highschooler sits most of the day on his/her
| ass.
| colechristensen wrote:
| Individual and age based preferences for early or late sleeping
| schedules have been observed in modern day hunter gatherer
| tribes. It is highly doubtful that this has anything to do with
| modern lifestyles instead it is a feature of humanity.
|
| The concept that everyone should keep the same sleep schedule
| and at that an early rising one is the product of the
| industrial revolution and Protestant work ethic in the west. It
| is unnatural.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| "It is unnatural."
|
| Most of our lifestyle is unnatural (we live _very_
| differently from the original hunters and gatherers), but we
| could often find ways how to adapt without causing too much
| suffering.
|
| If teenagers suffer, I would look at various methods how to
| mitigate their suffering. Starting the school later is an
| obvious quick patch, but we shouldn't ignore other problems,
| such as quality of sleep in general. Not least because some
| of the problems may persist indefinitely.
|
| Having not enough physical activity is, in my opinion, a
| contributing factor, though not probably an overwhelming one.
| dymk wrote:
| Many studies have shown that teenagers go to bed later and
| wake up later, and forcing them to wake up earlier is bad
| for their cognition. People generally start naturally
| waking up earlier as they get older.
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| Personal anecdote but I was extremely active in high school,
| playing football, mountain biking 20-40 miles every week, and
| working an outdoor job, and it was a nightmare to wake up for
| my 9:15am classes. High school for me was 1999-2003 so I didn't
| spent a whole lot of time on the computer, which was in my
| older brother's room.
| rapht wrote:
| Yeah well... or just have parents requiring lights and phone off
| at 9pm.
| dylanz wrote:
| Lights off at 9pm? That's not how most teenagers work. I used
| to read until midnight most nights.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| My kids haven't yet wondered how the Kindles they hide under
| their pillows have never run out of charge.
| crooked-v wrote:
| Given the evidence pointing at teenagers having a different
| biological clock, that just gets you a bunch of insomniacs
| sneaking out anyway.
| jimbob45 wrote:
| You're right but no one wants to admit it. It's just like how
| computers have become orders of magnitude faster over the
| years, yet end users feel none of it because we use every new
| cycle we can squeeze out. Likewise, if you give kids more
| hours, they'll fill them with more extracurriculars or computer
| time.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Principal Skinner: "Am I out of touch? No, it's the children
| who are wrong."
| thewebcount wrote:
| Yeah, like that would work. My parents weren't completely
| unreasonable about bedtimes but did require us to go to bed by
| something like 10 or 11PM so we didn't keep them up all night
| with our noise. I would then lie in bed staring at the ceiling
| until I fell asleep at 2AM. Nothing I was able to do would help
| me fall asleep sooner. Then I'd just barely wake up at 6AM and
| drag my ass into the shower. I'd basically sleep through first
| and second hour. Our lunch started at something ridiculous like
| 10AM. My body couldn't make heads or tails of it and my
| circadian rhythms were totally fucked for the next 4 to 8
| years. Luckily I have a sane job now and haven't set an alarm
| in about 20 years.
| fortran77 wrote:
| Kids who are early risers will suffer.
| pessimizer wrote:
| Will they, or will they have a lot of free time in the morning?
| Time they could even spend doing homework, giving them their
| evenings free and clear.
|
| edit: as an early riser myself, that absolutely doesn't mean
| that I want to go in early. I enjoy having hours to myself in
| the morning, being able to relax, cook a nice breakfast, _maybe
| watch a movie_ , before going in. I don't know why it has to be
| the standard that we be in a frustrated hurry every morning.
| zahma wrote:
| Not totally a benefit. In the Midwest, if you start class at
| 9:30, as some middle schools do due to bussing availability,
| you'd get out at 4:30. In the winter, the sun has set. How
| horrible that is to feel like the day was spent inside a dingy
| and neglected building. The advantages of sleep must also be
| weighed against other psychological benefits.
| cvccvroomvroom wrote:
| For grades 3 - 5, forced busing 90 minutes each way in California
| to the bad part of town because of skin color required waking up
| at 4:55 am every morning. Didn't get home until late evening. If
| I was any other ethnicity, I wouldn't have been required to be
| subjected to a worse and more dangerous school.
|
| Middle school (grades 6-8) were waking up at 6:30 am to be there
| by 7:30.
|
| And then high school (grades 9-12) was waking-up at 7 am to
| arrive by 8. 20 minute bike ride each way.
|
| Kicker: I had undiagnosed sleep apnea, ADHD, anxiety, and
| depression.
| frogpelt wrote:
| Who's making all these kids stay up late?
| lumost wrote:
| I really don't understand the pressure to start schools so early,
| it seems contrary to the goals of both children and parents.
|
| A parent needs their kids to be supervised until they come home
| from work. Kids need to get sleep. Schools are presently time
| shifted between 2and 3 hours early relative to parental
| schedules.
|
| My only question is why? School could start 3 hours later and
| kids would get out roughly at the time their parents are coming
| home from work.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| Places where schools start early also may be places where work
| starts early. For example, I live in Calgary. My high school
| started at 8 and many kids got there at 7:30. Work in Calgary
| also starts at 8ish in my experience.
|
| Toronto's public school board opens for 8:30 and classes start
| at 8:50. Work starts at 9 in Toronto.
| lumost wrote:
| This may be a Canadian thing. where I went to school in
| Connecticut, school began at 7:15 AM with the first busses
| arriving at 6:30 AM. A non trivial portion of students had to
| be out of the house by 5:30 AM to make the bus.
|
| Work on the other hand started at 9-9:30AM. While I didn't
| experience this directly, my mother must have had the brutal
| schedule of being up at 5 AM and arriving home at 6 PM.
| throwaway_coin wrote:
| I didn't have time to sleep.
|
| I was in AP Classes, plus working 35 hours a week.
|
| In hindsight, I would have filed for emancipation and started
| freelancing immediately.
|
| High school is a waste of time.
| danschumann wrote:
| The later they start, then the less time they'll have to get in
| trouble after school. Basically no one gets in trouble BEFORE
| school, right? Oh wait.. I got suspended once before school. Is
| there any studies on whether or not people are more likely to get
| in trouble based on time of day?
| standardUser wrote:
| If we want kids to get into less trouble, let's just
| recategorize a lot of the mostly-harmless behaviors that we
| consider to be "trouble".
| Mountain_Skies wrote:
| Afternoon rush hour tends to be worst than morning rush hour
| since more people leave at the end of the workday at the same
| time than arrive at the start of the workday. For schools, does
| letting everyone out at the same time create more opportunities
| for conflict and trouble? Or does the before school period
| that's usually unstructured allow more due to how little
| supervision there is? For my schooling, I remember far more
| after school conflict, most arising from events during the
| school day. Kids tend to forget grudges much easier than adults
| so maybe in the morning they're not as upset at the insult they
| heard from a classmate as they were the previous afternoon.
| aynyc wrote:
| This is all good and well. I had a hard time waking up in high
| school, but all my AP classes are in the morning 8:00-9:30ish. I
| didn't have a choice.
| rr808 wrote:
| So they start later, do they finish later too? So have dinner
| later, homework later, go to be later and same result?
| joe__f wrote:
| In the UK it's normal for schools to start around 9am. I thought
| this was some kind of avant gate experiment letting teens start
| at 11am, I would've loved that at 15. I didn't realise schools
| started so early in the states, 7am seems pretty sadistic to me
| warning26 wrote:
| It's because surburban parents demand these early start times
| so they can drop their kids off while commuting to work.
|
| A ridiculous justification, of course, but that's what you get
| with a combination of helicopter parenting and a society
| overreliant on cars.
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| Also wealth erosion. Inflation. Property prices. Both parents
| have to work full time.
| Thlom wrote:
| I get it for kids younger than 8-10 (depending on the kid),
| but after that age kids should be able to get out of the
| house and to school on their own. For the youngest it can be
| solved with a before school program. The kids just need a
| place to eat breakfast and chill with their friends before
| the school day starts.
| Gigachad wrote:
| Letting a child under 18 step outside without being in a
| car or under direct parent supervision is child abuse in
| the US and the police will usually be called.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| As a non-American I can't tell whether this is sarcasm.
| cool_dude85 wrote:
| I had always heard the explanation that early HS start times
| were to allow the possibility of an after-school job. Not
| sure which is true.
| 83457 wrote:
| In my area they swapped high school and middle school times to
| help HS teens. My 7th grader got up at 5:45am to get ready and
| catch bus at 6:45am.
| switch007 wrote:
| It's not the state in control of when children sleep, it's
| business owners.
|
| Children are dropped off at school at the time that allows the
| parents to get to work at the time required by their boss. And
| they're picked up when their boss let's them go.
|
| The school day (in the form of sports/clubs etc) is extended to
| keep up with longer working days and the second parent having to
| work full time instead of part time.
|
| And two parents have to work because they need the combined
| salary to make the mortgage work, for a home big enough for
| everyone.
|
| We work too long and too much for too little and if we don't
| address the root causes then little is going to really change
| warning26 wrote:
| _> Children are dropped off at school at the time that allows
| the parents to get to work at the time required by their boss.
| And they're picked up when their boss let's them go._
|
| If only there were some way for students to get to school that
| wasn't their parents dropping them off. Some kind of bus maybe,
| but for students. We could call it a "school bus" perhaps.
| cool_dude85 wrote:
| Where I live, middle school aged kids still run the risk of
| big trouble for being unsupervised. 6th grade starts at 11
| years old. So the bus can drop them off and pick them up, but
| better be there when they leave and when they get home.
| looperhacks wrote:
| Man, living in Germany, we started walking to school or
| taking the bus alone on the third day of first grade (6yo)
| eertami wrote:
| Kids walk to and from school at like 5 years old in Europe.
| In some countries they also walk home for lunch, since
| there is a break with no childcare where they have to go
| home to eat.
|
| If children are never allowed to learn independence, then
| you end up in this never-ending feedback loop of required
| supervision.
| snarf21 wrote:
| Snark doesn't solve problems. When I was in middle school, it
| was a 45 minute bus ride. The same bus had to drop us off at
| 7:30 am so they could get back in time to pick up the
| elementary kids and get them to school on time. So the bus
| picked us up at 6:45 am which means we are waking up around
| 6:15 at the latest. That isn't sleeping in. The GP is right,
| the parents still need to be there for the 6th grader to get
| on the bus and _ALSO_ make it to work on time at 8:00. Not
| everyone lives 5 minutes from work. In some rural areas
| parents have an _hour_ drive even after their kids get on the
| bus or get dropped at daycare.
| Gigachad wrote:
| That's because the school is still scheduled around driving
| parents. If children majority took the bus, they could
| start school at 10:00 and leave it up to the remaining car
| users to make that work.
|
| And some edge case about rural towns doesn't mean much when
| even urban schools have this issue.
| snarf21 wrote:
| I can only speak to where I went to school, but even now,
| 90% of kids ride the bus. I'm not sure how school can
| start at 10:00 if the parents have to be there to get an
| 8 year old safely on the bus but somehow still make it to
| work by even 9:00.
| c22 wrote:
| Schools should have overlapping morning and evening periods and
| families should get to choose which one their student attends.
| mbreese wrote:
| Tha doesn't always work. The school I was supposed to go to for
| high school (before moving prior to the year starting) did that
| by default. Grades 11-12 started early and got out early.
| Grades 9-10 started later and ended later. There were about 3
| hours of overlap.
| leksak wrote:
| I think the comment you are replying to would suggest that
| for every kid that choice gets to be made by their parent(a)
| /guardian as to whether or not they start late or early.
| mbreese wrote:
| I was trying to give a counter point about that type of
| flex schedule already happening at some schools. But it
| isn't based on parental choice.
|
| It's a hard thing to do in practice. You can't have 1/3 a
| 1/2 of the classes duplicated throughout the day. Are you
| going to have two honors chemistry classes? Not all of the
| classes could be offered in that core set of hours when
| everyone was there. Or are you only going to have electives
| in the morning and afternoon hours?
|
| It worked for the larger school because the classes were
| split by grade. So you didn't have two freshman English
| classes. You had freshman in the afternoon and seniors in
| the morning.
|
| The real problem is now instead of covering 6-7 hours of
| classes, teachers would need to cover 9-10 hours. You
| aren't going to hire more teachers to do this. Is the
| Economics teacher going to only have classes from 7-10 and
| then 1-4?
|
| The more I think about it, the more unworkable it seems.
| c22 wrote:
| Why can't we hire more teachers?
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| There could be learning centers where everyone takes their own
| self-paced courses and stays and goes as needed.
| theptip wrote:
| > That's profoundly unsettling, particularly in light of data
| released by the CDC in April showing that 44 percent of high
| schoolers said they'd had "persistent feelings of sadness or
| hopelessness" during the past year, and 20 percent had seriously
| contemplated suicide.
|
| One second-order effect of Covid is that it completely confounds
| the statistics collection for a wide swathe of issues. With a
| huge one-off exogenous shock in emotional and physical well-
| being, it's basically impossible to make inferences using these
| statistics from the last couple years.
|
| Maybe we can compute the "Covid baseline impact" but because of
| the very regional response, it will be extremely hard to control
| for this factor.
| barry-cotter wrote:
| This is ridiculous. The CDC doesn't care about teenagers'
| mental health. They're using this specific effect as an
| argument for something they actually care about. School is
| itself deleterious to teenagers' mental health. School causes
| suicide. This is as you would expect from an institution that
| constrains them from doing what they want and following their
| interests, that is hostile to their autonomy as such.
|
| > What sticks out is a large decrease in teen suicide rates
| during the summer vacation months of June/July/August. In
| contrast, the somewhat older group sees, if anything, an
| increase in suicide rates in the summer. There's also a drop in
| high school suicides in December, around winter vacation.
|
| https://www.basilhalperin.com/essays/school-and-teen-suicide...
| dbavaria wrote:
| The CDC also has numbers from 2009-2019, the following report
| shows similiarly shocking numbers pre-covid:
|
| https://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/mental-
| health/index.htm#:~:....
| logifail wrote:
| Our 12-year old (but turning 13 soon! :eek:) has to leave the
| house on foot at 6.50am at the latest for the 10min walk to the
| station to catch a train to school, he gets there around 7.35am
| and his first lesson starts at 7.50am
|
| Our 9-year old leaves on a (non-electric) scooter at 7.25am for
| the 10-min journey to school, he needs to be there for 7.45am
|
| Our 6-year old leaves with me either in the car at 8.25am if
| we're late, or 8.15am on bikes if we're early, for kindergarden.
|
| After all that, my wife gets up :)
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| Sounds chaotic but kind of magical (ridiculous times excepted)
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