[HN Gopher] Purdue Starts Comprehensive Semiconductor Degree Pro...
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Purdue Starts Comprehensive Semiconductor Degree Programs in U.S.
Author : mindcrime
Score : 278 points
Date : 2022-06-15 17:56 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.eetimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.eetimes.com)
| soared wrote:
| Reading this all I could think was that it's an excellent idea,
| and that the government should be tripping over itself to give
| this program scholarships.
|
| > The university has existing collaborations with the U.S.
| Department of Defense's SCALE (Scalable Asymmetric Lifecycle
| Engagement) program, the American Semiconductor Academy, and
| other CHIPS Act workforce consortia
| hnthrowaway0315 wrote:
| As someone working full-time in Canada, wish I could roll back my
| life 10+ years and get into one of the semiconductor schools.
| Good luck to all who are admitted into this program, looks very
| interesting.
|
| Link to online degree:
| https://engineering.purdue.edu/semiconductors/degrees#online...
| jjoonathan wrote:
| Warning: nerd trap. Low wages, horrendous deadlines (tapeout),
| hard work.
|
| Perhaps this has changed, given that we're in a semiconductor
| boom cycle now, but I have my doubts. When SMIC started trying
| to poach TSMC talent, the response was not to make pay
| competitive (or even half decent), let alone in line with the
| massive geopolitically-relevant value being created. No, the
| response was a mask-off legislative crackdown to keep the nerds
| in line. In the US, there were only two big employers, and they
| were definitely paying what they could get away with.
|
| Anyone who is considering this career -- any career, but this
| one especially -- before you jump, please get the perspective
| of someone in industry who isn't trying to sell you a career.
| gyc wrote:
| My dad was a EE professor specializing in semiconductor
| fabrication and he warned me away from a career working at
| semiconductor labs. He has warned me about every single
| warning of this post.
| passivate wrote:
| A lot of human progress in core sciences and engineering is
| on the backs of people toiling the midnight hours on sheer
| passion for little monetary reward. We owe a great debt of
| gratitude towards them.
|
| In any commercial organization, there are tremendous
| pressures in high-investment, super high-risk projects and
| anyone can trivially find things that are wrong with the
| current system. The much more difficult challenge is showing
| an alternate path that is superior - based on the results it
| achieves. The times when you see the ugly behavior of people
| are times of desperation. Online commenters expend a lot of
| effort point out how to improve things by "proving" it by
| linking to random studies - but the more persuasive argument
| is by implementing those changes in the real world. "Talk is
| cheap, show me the code." ;)
| jjoonathan wrote:
| Sure thing! I've got your alternate path that is superior
| right here: see, first I give the semiconductor industry a
| big fat middle finger, and then I go work for somebody who
| fucking pays me.
| Melatonic wrote:
| This honestly sounds like there is some real shady shit going
| on behind the scenes by the heads of these two companies.
| Reminds me of the whole VFX / software engineering union
| debacle with Steve Jobs / Lucas / etc that eventually came
| out and was super duper illegal.
| rprospero wrote:
| I'd love to hear more about that debacle, but everything
| I'm finding is just another Jobs-Pixar hagiography. Any
| pointers on how to learn more?
| krallja wrote:
| https://www.cgw.com/Press-Center/News/2014/Studios-
| Accused-o...
| nurspouse wrote:
| I worked at Intel, and with process/fab people for a number
| of years.
|
| Everything you're seeing in the comments is true.
|
| Compensation is not _that_ bad. Clearly, it 'll not pay SW
| salaries - no engineering does. But if you're a fab person,
| you'll work long hours, be on call often (and you _will_ get
| woken up often), and eventually will own a tool that you 'll
| be responsible for, even when not on call.
|
| Lots of abusive and pathological behavior, as well. And they
| often block internal transfers so you're basically trapped.
|
| People with other skills (e.g. SW) get out. The rest are
| stuck, because they have, for example, a chemistry PhD and no
| other company will pay more.
|
| See this thread from a while ago:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30027143
| smaddox wrote:
| I agree with all of this, unfortunately. I worked for Intel
| for two years after graduating with a PhD in EE. I learned
| a lot from the experience, but I can't recommend it. I work
| in software, now. The PhD was great, though. I loved doing
| semiconductor research. But make sure you work with a
| professor who is very good at fund raising.
| whacim wrote:
| There are also some indications that Washington is
| increasingly viewing semiconductors as a national security
| issue. There could be a shift in federal funding that could
| make the industry more attractive to talent again.
| nurspouse wrote:
| The industry doesn't have a talent shortage, which
| explains the working conditions. There will always be
| grad students who think "Cool! I get to do research
| involving quantum mechanics!"
|
| Trust me, I've tried to talk them out of it and never
| succeeded.
| asurty wrote:
| TLDR: band gaps are not for the feint of heard :D
| phendrenad2 wrote:
| It's easy, you just grab each electron firmly using pliers
| and carefully move them closer together. Be sure you have a
| proper angstrom ruler to make sure they're the right
| distance.
| mindcrime wrote:
| _" The answer's not in the box, it's in the band."_
| bushbaba wrote:
| When in University, Intel gave a presentation. They stated
| the same facts that the Semi industry will be low waged, hard
| work, and require MULTIPLE PHDs. That presentation gave me
| enough information to recognize that I really didn't want to
| be in the semi-industry.
| plonk wrote:
| > require MULTIPLE PHDs
|
| Was that a joke? What's the point of doing two PhDs in the
| same field? That's like 12 years wasted. 1/8th of your
| life.
| bushbaba wrote:
| Nope. They said they employed folks with a PHD in
| Electrical Engineering who also had a PHD in Chemical
| Engineering or similar field.
| jjoonathan wrote:
| Intel turned the screws so hard on their employees that the
| market actually punished them for it. That never happens,
| but Intel went so far beyond the pale that it did.
|
| A mentor of mine hit his breaking point when they
| split/bankrupt/acquired his team to discharge pension
| obligations. Real nasty stuff. He said everyone was
| retiring, "good luck with the next node" (10nm) -- which I
| discounted as sour grapes on account of Intel appearing
| invincible at the time, but wow have the years cast that
| story in a different light.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| EE in general is a problematic career path in the US.
| Microelectronics is more so due to the even more limited
| employment options. All but a few niche fab operators are
| multinationals and you're directly competing with cheaper
| offshore labor. Government initiatives aren't going to change
| this arrangement.
| ajb wrote:
| EE isn't only working at a fab. Most EE's I know work at
| fabless design houses and make a good living, albeit with
| some crunch periods. I think it's the chemists who are
| stuck with the fabs.
| baybal2 wrote:
| gtvwill wrote:
| How do smart folks wind up in such crappy employment
| conditions? Like seriously are they not unionised or
| something?
| rockostrich wrote:
| I went into a master's program at SUNY CNSE back in 2014 for
| "nanoscale engineering" hoping to do some research in
| MEMS/NEMS. Turns out there were no research spots available
| with the groups working on that stuff so I ended up in a
| group working on EUV photoresists. I ended up not doing much
| actual "nanoscale research" and mostly just did some data
| science/engineering for the group since all the data
| processing code they had took 10+ hours to run for each
| experiment trial. I fixed that code to run in under 10
| minutes and decided I should probably just start looking for
| jobs in software. Couldn't be happier.
|
| Every person I interacted with in the semiconductor space was
| either an academic who was stuck in a lab 12+ hours a day or
| some line manager for Intel/IBM/TSMC/etc. that was on-call
| 24/7 if something went wrong. Both of those sounded terrible
| to me regardless of the pay.
| lcvw wrote:
| CNSE class of 2017. The usual career progression of people
| I talked to was: get a phd, work 12 hour shifts (including
| nights), be underpaid because you "are not an expert yet",
| be fired after 2 years because the company abruptly changed
| technologies and didn't need you anymore. Repeat steps 2-4
| until you eventually get frustrated enough to leave the
| field.
|
| So yeah I do software now.
| jjoonathan wrote:
| If they paid me to be on-call as much as they payed my
| father (doctor) to be on-call, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
| Maybe I would have regretted it in 10 years -- he sure did
| -- but I'd have loved it for a while.
|
| Terrible pay _and_ terrible hours _and_ long school _and_
| hard work is just irredeemable.
| scrlk wrote:
| This reminds me of my path: wanted to study EE because I
| thought that designing chips, working in a fab etc. would
| be cool, started studying EE and realised I would need to
| get a PhD to do the more interesting work (frankly I'm not
| smart enough to do a PhD), plus tepid job prospects in the
| UK.
|
| Ended up as a power systems engineer, which is the complete
| opposite in terms of scale from semiconductors!
| bluelan949 wrote:
| Likewise, I graduated from a very similar program to CNSE.
| It was a program attached to the main engineering school.
| The work seemed so interesting and I felt I would end up
| doing impactful research.
|
| That was until I did an internship following a grad student
| doing work on solar cells. Every day was sitting 8+ hours
| in one room doing CVD then XRD. It was soul crushing. I
| realized the program was more of a PhD-prep program and
| most people I know who graduated and didn't go for a PhD
| either 1) went into software or 2) work as some menial
| process engineer working the "assembly line" with no
| meaningful upwards mobility.
| m463 wrote:
| I don't understand the field, but it seems to me that chip
| design is becoming more democratized. Everybody's designing a
| chip nowadays.
|
| Is a foundry the only employer?
| acomjean wrote:
| My partner designed chips (for printers..) It takes a lot
| of money to design and fab a chip (her company was
| fabless). They synopsys or Magma software they used for
| design/layout was crazy expensive. (if you can't find a
| price....)
|
| https://www.synopsys.com
|
| Then you have to manufacture. There is a significant cost
| for custom chips. Though once you get going the per chip
| cost is pretty low, thus the business lends itself to a few
| large players.
| jjoonathan wrote:
| Different sub-professions. Digital design vs mixed signal
| vs device physics & such.
|
| Last time I had close contact with the industry, digital
| design indeed was a bit more competitive and
| correspondingly it was the only one considered to have good
| career prospects -- but the offers were still between
| shabby and embarrassing next to entry level SWE, even
| outside the bay area.
|
| This could have changed.
| binbag wrote:
| I don't think everyone's designing a chip. They might be
| putting together chips to create boards, but chip design is
| something else altogether, right down in the architecture
| of memory and transistors etc.
| hardware2win wrote:
| I switched from web dev to semico this year and the amount of
| things i dont understand is huge
|
| Majority of ppl here are after electrical eng.
|
| Cs seems to be easy in compare
| Datenstrom wrote:
| Web development usually involves very little CS it is much
| closer to Software Engineering. Computer Science about
| solving problems with math, science, and computation theory
| and just happens to use computers as tools. Software
| Engineering is about building complete and useful programs.
| goodpoint wrote:
| > Web development ... is much closer to Software
| Engineering
|
| Is what?!
| badRNG wrote:
| I currently work in embedded software which involves a lot of
| overlapping interaction with EE and hardware design folks.
| The consensus is that the hardest, most fascinating field is
| the one you currently have the least exposure to. The
| easiest, least exciting field is the one you have a degree
| in.
|
| In CS, you may have spent thousands or tens of thousands of
| hours across many years learning and growing, and still being
| limited in your understanding of the field as a whole. It's
| daunting to explore other related fields just to find out
| that they each have similar levels of complexity, filled with
| professionals who've sunk similar levels of effort, time, and
| years of their life into their work (who are often equally
| struck by the complexity of _your_ field.)
| netr0ute wrote:
| The grass is always greener on the other side
| actinium226 wrote:
| But sometimes that's because it's fake.
|
| Other times it has more to do with the particular brand
| of, ahem, fertilizer, they use.
|
| Sometimes it really is greener and your side is shit and
| it's time to make a change.
| hnthrowaway0315 wrote:
| Just curious, for a software engineer that only works with
| managed languages such as Java and Python, what kind of
| embedded job is easy to squeeze into? Thanks~~
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| There are a number of embedded gadgets that run on
| Android, complete with code in Java. (They aren't hard
| real-time systems, but not all embedded devices care
| about that.) Look for things that have a real graphical
| display and touchscreen.
| hnthrowaway0315 wrote:
| Thanks! Is that different from Android/iOS development or
| just part of it?
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| Well... it's Android (or iOS) development, but it's
| different.
|
| In that kind of situation, you usually own the whole
| device. You don't have to worry about being removed from
| memory because the user wanted to run some hotel's
| booking app or whatever - the user doesn't have the
| option of doing that.
|
| You may have some additional hooks that give you some
| control of whatever custom hardware that comes with the
| device. You may or may not have to drop down into native
| code to access those hooks.
|
| You can't develop against a standard phone or tablet. You
| have to have _your_ hardware to develop against.
|
| So, yeah. It's the same... but it's different.
| badRNG wrote:
| If you have experience with software, learning embedded
| concepts isn't a huge leap. At least in my area,
| aerospace, defense, and automotive tend to be the
| biggest, easiest employers to get started with. They will
| hire basically anyone with a solid grasp of C, OSes, and
| basic computer architecture (at an undergrad level.)
|
| I find embedded really rewarding. A 20 year old
| embedded-C code base generally follows the same design
| patterns and coding conventions and styles that you'd use
| today, and don't feel "old" or like they need to be
| rewritten. A 7 year old JS code base, on the other hand,
| is largely outdated, and may be written in a nearly
| extinct framework by the time it is your turn to maintain
| it. If you get tired of giving up time on the weekends so
| you can learn a new framework, consider hopping over!
| CodeSgt wrote:
| Know of any companies/industries that have started
| switching to Rust for embedded?
| hnthrowaway0315 wrote:
| Thanks for the tip, that's really interesting. I'm more
| into lower level stuffs so I'm taking CS courses towards
| OS and Compiler. I also played with a Tiva launchpad but
| stopped after failing bit banging multiple devices :D
| krapht wrote:
| Heh, or you could be me, and escape embedded. I hate
| staring at 20 year old legacy C or C++98 codebases,
| Makefiles and Autotools make me cry, and trying to debug
| random hardware issues with blinking LEDs or print
| statements (JTAG access is too optimistic) is something
| only the most detail-oriented person might enjoy :).
|
| I'm exaggerating a little, but more power to those of you
| who suffer through it!
| nsonha wrote:
| That's very brave, from easy work high pay to hard word low
| pay.
| hardware2win wrote:
| Thats how I do feel - that better cash and more jobs = web
| dev, but I feel like in semico there is way more
| interesting and impressive stuff.
|
| Ppl who I worked with went into more web like jobs after
| semico
|
| But later I'd want to work as compiler engineer
| nurspouse wrote:
| Semiconductor theory is more interesting, but don't even
| consider it unless you love math and can do standard
| integrals without having to look up tables.
|
| Also, the mistake I made when I went to grad school:
| Semiconductors seemed to be a "new" field compared to the
| rest of EE. One of my undergrad professors said "They
| still haven't figured out what a standard textbook should
| contain."
|
| In reality, from a research standpoint, it's a _very_
| mature field. Don 't expect low hanging fruit. If you're
| going to focus on theory, expect it'll take a number of
| years of dedicated study before you get to the frontier.
| You'll need to know quantum mechanics and statistical
| mechanics, and some electromagnetics, just to _begin_
| studying semiconductor theory. Then a whole bunch of
| specialized solid state courses. _Then_ you start
| studying the specific subtopics (reading key journal
| papers).
|
| > But later I'd want to work as compiler engineer
|
| Why are you wasting time with semiconductors...?
| madengr wrote:
| bsder wrote:
| Don't. Really.
|
| You wind up captive to a small number of employers in places
| that have few other employers. You have to be physically
| present--no online only. You will have weird hours because you
| have to slot into the fab plant openings. Your pay will be a
| small fraction of even a mediocre software developer.
|
| I can go on and on.
|
| There isn't a shortage of semiconductor personnel. We all
| _fled_.
|
| Companies could pay people enough to come back. Like so many
| other fields, companies would rather do _anything_ other than
| raise salaries.
|
| Stay far away.
| Bilal_io wrote:
| Semi-relates: Why don't universities offer online undergraduate
| programs? It's frustrating. I enrolled myself back to finish my
| bachelor's degree and my school offers very few or no online
| options for the classes I need.
| jltsiren wrote:
| Because they don't have the people to teach online students.
|
| The academia is a community and a lifestyle. The people who
| choose that lifestyle generally don't want to spend too much
| time teaching outside the community. Teaching is a lot of
| work, a lot of bureaucracy, and a lot of hard deadlines, and
| it's not particularly rewarding if the students are just
| names on screen. Maybe if people paid higher taxes and higher
| tuition fees, universities could hire teachers to "just work
| here" and pay them competitive salaries.
| Kerrick wrote:
| Some do. I just started going back to school and I'm working
| on a B.S. In Software Development at Western Governors
| University. They're accredited and online only. They also
| offer a B.S. in Computer Science.
| Bilal_io wrote:
| I heard about WGU and was a bit skeptical, not knowing how
| it's viewed by other universities if I wanted to continue
| my master's program elsewhere. I have a couple of questions
| if you don't mind. I assume you've done your research
| before you joined, what made you decide to go for it?
| what's your current experience there? And do you know other
| people that took their degree from WGU and joined another
| university for their master's?
| alawrence wrote:
| I can't speak to master's programs in CompSci but I
| finished my bachelors in business at WGU and was later
| admitted to the iMBA program at the University of
| Illinois Urbana Champaign.
| metaphor wrote:
| > _Why don 't universities offer online undergraduate
| programs?_
|
| There's a normative and substantial laboratory aspect to
| ABET-accredited[1] undergraduate _engineering_ programs.
|
| From Criterion 7:
|
| >> _Modern tools, equipment, computing resources, and
| laboratories appropriate to the program must be available,
| accessible, and systematically maintained and upgraded to
| enable students to attain the student outcomes and to support
| program needs._
|
| [1] https://www.abet.org/accreditation/accreditation-
| criteria/cr...
| nonethewiser wrote:
| But this is an online program.
| metaphor wrote:
| Graduate program has an online option; undergraduate
| program does not.
| Bilal_io wrote:
| I am happy that it is, but it's not my domain. I am trying
| to finish my degree in CS or a related field.
| adamsmith143 wrote:
| Plenty of options out there. ASU, Arizona, Florida, etc
| all have online CS or SWE bachelor programs but there are
| many others as well. Good Luck!
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| https://ecampus.oregonstate.edu/online-
| degrees/undergraduate...
| badRNG wrote:
| Unless you are going for their post-bacc (which is a
| really good deal), doing their full online undergrad
| program would be an absolute nightmare. I'd go just about
| anywhere else.
| Victerius wrote:
| Online programs may not be accredited by national
| credentialing bodies. Many STEM degrees require lab courses
| that can't be performed online. And non-STEM programs are
| based around the seminar (classroom discussion) model, where
| on-site attendance is always superior to a Zoom meeting.
|
| Forcing students to live on-premises also makes universities
| money through student housing and amenities. Universities
| have concerns that opening their programs to online
| instruction would lead to an exodus from the campus. You
| could have 70% of a 20,000 strong student body attend online,
| and all the expensive real estate of the campus would mostly
| be a waste of money.
| hnthrowaway0315 wrote:
| I'm frustrated too. My university has gone back to in-people
| and it forces me to drop 2 out of the 4 courses I registered,
| plus one of the kept course forces me to take a couple of
| hours off every week.
| driscoll42 wrote:
| There's one to my knowledge offered by the University of
| London: https://www.coursera.org/degrees/bachelor-of-science-
| compute...
| [deleted]
| echelon wrote:
| What other industries and critical supply chain components do we
| need to do this for?
|
| Anything at this scale?
| digb wrote:
| Doctors. The US is way understaffed for doctors.
| Victerius wrote:
| Software engineering, statistics (to train data scientists),
| plane pilots.
| Datenstrom wrote:
| Software engineering should really be separated from CS
| anywhere it isn't.
| smalley wrote:
| This seems like good marketing but reading this press release and
| looking at the courses in their degree program I feel like I'm
| missing what's different here (other than some reference to
| supply chain management).
|
| Most of the coursework here seems to be very similar to what was
| available over a decade ago at the state university I attended
| for graduate school (my concentration was semiconductor device
| theory related). While I think this material is very interesting
| I don't know that the demand is going to be there for this type
| of field. Companies like Intel have dedicated smaller departments
| for process development which do the more academic work (for
| example the D1X facility).
|
| My experience with fabrication organization is the need is much
| more process engineer and technician focused rather than
| semiconductor engineers. The high volume hires are in improving
| reliability, reducing cost etc. I don't think you really need the
| EE degree for this, more likely industrial engineering, chemical
| engineering or statistics.
|
| This said, Purdue has always had a very strong program in the
| more device oriented semiconductor courses (Until his passing
| Robert Pierret the fellow who wrote some of the best and most
| used grad textbooks on devices called it home).
| avs733 wrote:
| You are correct. This is clearly not the first...check out
| Rochester institute of technology...it's just a branding
| exercise which is very in keeping with the current Purdue
| leadership.
| [deleted]
| DonHopkins wrote:
| Lynn Conway, co-author along with Carver Mead of "the textbook"
| on VLSI design, "Introduction to VLSI Systems", created and
| taught this historic VLSI Design Course in 1978, which was the
| first time students designed and fabricated their own integrated
| circuits:
|
| >"Importantly, these weren't just any designs, for many pushed
| the envelope of system architecture. Jim Clark, for instance,
| prototyped the Geometry Engine and went on to launch Silicon
| Graphics Incorporated based on that work (see Fig. 16). Guy
| Steele, Gerry Sussman, Jack Holloway and Alan Bell created the
| follow-on 'Scheme' (a dialect of LISP) microprocessor, another
| stunning design."
|
| THE M.I.T. 1978 VLSI SYSTEM DESIGN COURSE:
|
| https://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/VLSI/MIT78/MIT78.htm...
|
| A Guidebook for the Instructor of VLSI System Design:
|
| https://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/VLSI/InstGuide/InstG...
|
| That book and course catalyzed the "Mead-Conway VLSI chip design
| revolution":
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead%E2%80%93Conway_VLSI_chip_...
|
| https://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/conway.html
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynn_Conway
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carver_Mead
|
| Lynn Conway's "Reminiscences of the VLSI Revolution: How a series
| of failures triggered a paradigm shift in digital design":
|
| https://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/Memoirs/VLSI/Lynn_Co...
|
| Also:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25964865
|
| Here's some historic Vintage VLSI Porn that I posted 6 years ago,
| from Lynn Conway's famous VLSI Design course at MIT:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynn_Conway
|
| https://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/conway.html
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8860722
|
| DonHopkins on Jan 9, 2015 | on: Design of Lisp-Based Processors
| Or, LAMBDA: The Ul...
|
| I believe this is about the Lisp Microprocessor that Guy Steele
| created in Lynn Conway's groundbreaking 1978 MIT VLSI System
| Design Course:
|
| http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/VLSI/MIT78/MIT78.html
|
| My friend David Levitt is crouching down in this class photo so
| his big 1978 hair doesn't block Guy Steele's face:
|
| The class photo is in two parts, left and right:
|
| http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/VLSI/MIT78/Class2s.jp...
|
| http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/VLSI/MIT78/Class3s.jp...
|
| Here are hires images of the two halves of the chip the class
| made:
|
| http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/VLSI/InstGuide/MIT78c...
|
| http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/VLSI/InstGuide/MIT78c...
|
| The Great Quux's Lisp Microprocessor is the big one on the left
| of the second image, and you can see his name "(C) 1978 GUY L
| STEELE JR" if you zoom in. David's project is in the lower right
| corner of the first image, and you can see his name "LEVITT" if
| you zoom way in.
|
| Here is a photo of a chalkboard with status of the various
| projects:
|
| http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/VLSI/MIT78/Status%20E...
|
| The final sanity check before maskmaking: A wall-sized overall
| check plot made at Xerox PARC from Arpanet-transmitted design
| files, showing the student design projects merged into
| multiproject chip set.
|
| http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/VLSI/MIT78/Checkplot%...
|
| One of the wafers just off the HP fab line containing the MIT'78
| VLSI design projects: Wafers were then diced into chips, and the
| chips packaged and wire bonded to specific projects, which were
| then tested back at M.I.T.
|
| http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/VLSI/MIT78/Wafer%20s....
|
| Design of a LISP-based microprocessor
|
| http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=359031
|
| ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/pdf/AIM-514.pdf
|
| Page 22 has a map of the processor layout:
|
| http://i.imgur.com/zwaJMQC.jpg
|
| We present a design for a class of computers whose "instruction
| sets" are based on LISP. LISP, like traditional stored-program
| machine languages and unlike most high-level languages,
| conceptually stores programs and data in the same way and
| explicitly allows programs to be manipulated as data, and so is a
| suitable basis for a stored-program computer architecture. LISP
| differs from traditional machine languages in that the
| program/data storage is conceptually an unordered set of linked
| record structures of various sizes, rather than an ordered,
| indexable vector of integers or bit fields of fixed size. An
| instruction set can be designed for programs expressed as trees
| of record structures. A processor can interpret these program
| trees in a recursive fashion and provide automatic storage
| management for the record structures. We discuss a small-scale
| prototype VLSI microprocessor which has been designed and
| fabricated, containing a sufficiently complete instruction
| interpreter to execute small programs and a rudimentary storage
| allocator.
|
| Here's a map of the projects on that chip, and a list of the
| people who made them and what they did:
|
| http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/VLSI/MPCAdv/SU-BK1.jp...
|
| 1. Sandra Azoury, N. Lynn Bowen Jorge Rubenstein: Charge flow
| transistors (moisture sensors) integrated into digital subsystem
| for testing.
|
| 2. Andy Boughton, J. Dean Brock, Randy Bryant, Clement Leung:
| Serial data manipulator subsystem for searching and sorting data
| base operations.
|
| 3. Jim Cherry: Graphics memory subsystem for mirroring/rotating
| image data.
|
| 4. Mike Coln: Switched capacitor, serial quantizing D/A
| converter.
|
| 5. Steve Frank: Writeable PLA project, based on the 3-transistor
| ram cell.
|
| 6. Jim Frankel: Data path portion of a bit-slice microprocessor.
|
| 7. Nelson Goldikener, Scott Westbrook: Electrical test patterns
| for chip set.
|
| 8. Tak Hiratsuka: Subsystem for data base operations.
|
| 9. Siu Ho Lam: Autocorrelator subsystem.
|
| 10. Dave Levitt: Synchronously timed FIFO.
|
| 11. Craig Olson: Bus interface for 7-segment display data.
|
| 12. Dave Otten: Bus interfaceable real time clock/calendar.
|
| 13. Ernesto Perea: 4-Bit slice microprogram sequencer.
|
| 14. Gerald Roylance: LRU virtual memory paging subsystem.
|
| 15. Dave Shaver Multi-function smart memory.
|
| 16. Alan Snyder Associative memory.
|
| 17. Guy Steele: LISP microprocessor (LISP expression evaluator
| and associated memory manager; operates directly on LISP
| expressions stored in memory).
|
| 18. Richard Stern: Finite impulse response digital filter.
|
| 19. Runchan Yang: Armstrong type bubble sorting memory.
|
| The following projects were completed but not quite in time for
| inclusion in the project set:
|
| 20. Sandra Azoury, N. Lynn Bowen, Jorge Rubenstein: In addition
| to project 1 above, this team completed a CRT controller project.
|
| 21. Martin Fraeman: Programmable interval clock.
|
| 22. Bob Baldwin: LCS net nametable project.
|
| 23. Moshe Bain: Programmable word generator.
|
| 24. Rae McLellan: Chaos net address matcher.
|
| 25. Robert Reynolds: Digital Subsystem to be used with project 4.
|
| Also, Jim Clark (SGI, Netscape) was one of Lynn Conway's
| students, and she taught him how to make his first prototype
| "Geometry Engine"!
|
| http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/VLSI/MPCAdv/MPCAdv.ht...
|
| Just 29 days after the design deadline time at the end of the
| courses, packaged custom wire-bonded chips were shipped back to
| all the MPC79 designers. Many of these worked as planned, and the
| overall activity was a great success. I'll now project photos of
| several interesting MPC79 projects. First is one of the
| multiproject chips produced by students and faculty researchers
| at Stanford University (Fig. 5). Among these is the first
| prototype of the "Geometry Engine", a high performance computer
| graphics image-generation system, designed by Jim Clark. That
| project has since evolved into a very interesting architectural
| exploration and development project.[9]
|
| Figure 5. Photo of MPC79 Die-Type BK (containing projects from
| Stanford University):
|
| http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/VLSI/MPCAdv/SU-BK1.jp...
|
| [...]
|
| The text itself passed through drafts, became a manuscript, went
| on to become a published text. Design environments evolved from
| primitive CIF editors and CIF plotting software on to include all
| sorts of advanced symbolic layout generators and analysis aids.
| Some new architectural paradigms have begun to similarly evolve.
| An example is the series of designs produced by the OM project
| here at Caltech. At MIT there has been the work on evolving the
| LISP microprocessors [3,10]. At Stanford, Jim Clark's prototype
| geometry engine, done as a project for MPC79, has gone on to
| become the basis of a very powerful graphics processing system
| architecture [9], involving a later iteration of his prototype
| plus new work by Marc Hannah on an image memory processor [20].
|
| [...]
|
| For example, the early circuit extractor work done by Clark Baker
| [16] at MIT became very widely known because Clark made access to
| the program available to a number of people in the network
| community. From Clark's viewpoint, this further tested the
| program and validated the concepts involved. But Clark's use of
| the network made many, many people aware of what the concept was
| about. The extractor proved so useful that knowledge about it
| propagated very rapidly through the community. (Another factor
| may have been the clever and often bizarre error-messages that
| Clark's program generated when it found an error in a user's
| design!)
|
| 9. J. Clark, "A VLSI Geometry Processor for Graphics", Computer,
| Vol. 13, No. 7, July, 1980.
|
| [...]
|
| The above is all from Lynn Conway's fascinating web site, which
| includes her great book "VLSI Reminiscence" available for free:
|
| http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/
|
| These photos look very beautiful to me, and it's interesting to
| scroll around the hires image of the Quux's Lisp Microprocessor
| while looking at the map from page 22 that I linked to above.
| There really isn't that much too it, so even though it's the
| biggest one, it really isn't all that complicated, so I'd say
| that "SIMPLE" graffiti is not totally inappropriate. (It's
| microcoded, and you can actually see the rough but semi-regular
| "texture" of the code!)
|
| This paper has lots more beautiful Vintage VLSI Porn, if you're
| into that kind of stuff like I am:
|
| http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/VLSI/MPC79/Photos/PDF...
|
| A full color hires image of the chip including James Clark's
| Geometry Engine is on page 23, model "MPC79BK", upside down in
| the upper right corner, "Geometry Engine (C) 1979 James Clark",
| with a close-up "centerfold spread" on page 27.
|
| Is the "document chip" on page 20, model "MPC79AH", a hardware
| implementation of Literate Programming?
|
| If somebody catches you looking at page 27, you can quickly flip
| to page 20, and tell them that you only look at Vintage VLSI Porn
| Magazines for the articles!
|
| There is quite literally a Playboy Bunny logo on page 21, model
| "MPC79B1", so who knows what else you might find in there by
| zooming in and scrolling around stuff like the "infamous buffalo
| chip"?
|
| http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/VLSI/VLSIarchive.html
|
| http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/VLSI/VLSI.archive.spr...
| mindcrime wrote:
| I would upvote this x100 if I could! Times like these, one is
| reminded of what it that makes HN so special. Having people
| like Don here and engaging and sharing this stuff, is just
| magnificient.
| xchaotic wrote:
| Most people here are dunking on this specific industry not paying
| enough for skilled labour but the problem is more generic- that's
| how we build the society around capitalism and we still seem to
| value capital more than labour.
| iron2disulfide wrote:
| Skimmed the article; what's the difference between this program
| and what's already taught in electrical and computer engineering
| classes? I studied ECE for my BS and MS and there were already a
| couple of chip design-related courses: digital design, VLSI,
| FPGA, semiconductor physics, IC fabrication. I guess more
| specialized coursework on verification or manufacturing would
| have been nice, but I don't think that would warrant a whole new
| academic program.
|
| edit: forgot to mention that I worked as a chip designer for many
| years right out of school.
| p_j_w wrote:
| I had the same thought. Upon reading, this sounds like it goes
| deeper on the semiconductor physics and fabrication parts.
| Relevant bit:
|
| "Courses will address supply chain issues in chemical
| engineering, mechanical engineering for tool development,
| thermal management, packaging, and material engineering as well
| as industrial engineering, logistics, and manufacturing
| optimization."
| Dracophoenix wrote:
| Which company did you work for?
| j_walter wrote:
| There is a big difference between chip design and running a
| factory...which generally isn't taught anywhere. When I got my
| ChE degree many years ago we had like 3 or 4 courses for
| semiconductors and in one course we learned about the
| manufacturing aspect. Even then it was super outdated with
| respect to what I actually dealt with when working as a Process
| Engineer at a fab.
| digb wrote:
| This seems like a smart cross-section of the existing ECE major
| and IE majors offered at Purdue, and would likely be a good way
| to lighten up the major (IE was considered easier than the other
| programs when I was in undergrad).
| baylessj wrote:
| It's neat to see this on the front page of HN -- I got the chance
| to take an Intro to Semiconductors class from the professor in
| the article a couple of years ago while getting my EE degree.
| Semiconductor design never really piqued my interest so I
| probably didn't get as much out of the class as I ought to have,
| but Lundstrom was clearly quite passionate about the subject and
| taught well. Looks like a neat program and it's one that I'm
| confident will have a lot of resources behind it.
| binbag wrote:
| I think this is a great opportunity for young people and they
| should take the chance to enter a field that even for electrical
| engineers is tough to enter. Chip design and semiconductor
| engineering is a bit of a black art, kind of like analogue
| electronics in general. I've got a PhD in EE and I still marvel
| at the engineering that goes into chips. If I was starting again
| I'd seriously consider this opportunity.
| analognoise wrote:
| Yet another way to flood the zone with engineers and keep the
| wages down.
|
| You're much better off doing software.
| sylware wrote:
| "non-China" Asia, they got all the top-notch foundries (Taiwan
| and South Korea). They don't manufacture some critical tools yet,
| but they should be able to if they want to.
|
| China wants its silicium automony and is seriously working on it,
| India too as it seems.
|
| US/america is actually restoring its silicium full autonomy.
|
| Meanwhile in EU, we buy intel fabs... amazing way to build EU
| silicium autonomy.
|
| At least, if RISC-V is a success, many chips from anywhere could
| move around and software should interoperate anywhere without
| toxic IP in the way or horrible compilers for abysmally complex
| computer language syntax. A part of the spectrum of chip types
| won't be able to move around due to "trust issues", but it should
| happen anyway for a still significant part of this spectrum.
| suyash wrote:
| Can someone explain how is this field of study different than
| already existing Electrical Engineering ? Sounds like a marketing
| ploy by Purdue.
| Animats wrote:
| There's a lot more chemistry.
| Linda703 wrote:
| bluedays wrote:
| And people always said that chickens were dumb.
| cvccvroomvroom wrote:
| Currently, it's typically a mixture of physics, material
| sciences, and/or EE.
|
| FYI: DeAnza College in Cupertino, CA has or had a small-scale
| wafer fab. There are also MOSIS and CEITEC types of fab services
| for small runs in education.
| sameerkapur wrote:
| boiler up
| bushbaba wrote:
| For those interested, but coming from a software background.
| Suggest looking into Georgia Tech's ECE 3056 course. There's lots
| of public material you can find online.
|
| https://oscar.gatech.edu/bprod/bwckctlg.p_disp_course_detail...
|
| https://moin.ece.gatech.edu/s13a/hw.html
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