[HN Gopher] Meta VR prototypes aim to make VR 'indistinguishable... ___________________________________________________________________ Meta VR prototypes aim to make VR 'indistinguishable from reality' Author : cr4zy Score : 143 points Date : 2022-06-20 18:00 UTC (4 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.roadtovr.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.roadtovr.com) | system16 wrote: | Mildly interesting but confusing. Who is the audience for this | little clip? Meta shareholders who need reassurance that the | metaverse is on track? | ntoskrnl wrote: | Probably enthusiasts. Same people that might watch a video | about Intel's newest CPU. | jayd16 wrote: | Recruiting video, maybe? | Havoc wrote: | Wish they'd go into a bit more detail given that they have actual | prototypes... | | Slightly confused as to why they stuck the zuck into what looks | like a plywood shed though? | sys_64738 wrote: | Wow, this is scary. These VR goggles remind me of the visitor's | sunglasses in V. You don't think...? | | https://www.scifipulse.net/richard-herd-passes-to-the-final-... | [deleted] | PheonixPharts wrote: | 10 years ago I thought we would all be driving in autonomous cars | by now, I was seriously concerned about the impact this would | have on the trucking industry. For context I have a background in | ML/Stats so I was reasonably familiar with the research going on | in this area and had many friends working on it. | | In that time I have relearned an old adage that people before my | generation would know well "the last mile is the longest mile". | In R&D this feels far more extreme than in running. | | VR seems very similar to autonomous driving. Quest 1/2 are light | years ahead of what we had a decade or so ago. At the same time | it's nowhere near to the point where it's going to be a major | part of my day. The Quest was mind blowing when I first used it, | but I got bored remarkably fast. Most importantly, none of my | problems with quest are the problems that are being solved here. | | The biggest one, in my opinion, is still space. I want a 10'x10' | area to run around in to even start having fun, and even in a | house I still don't have an open space that supports that without | moving furniture around. | | The mobile phone took over our lives because it's so small and | convenient. Large TVs work because we've been building homes | around them for decades, and TV spaces are also communal, | family/friend spaces. This brings up another issue, VR is | fundamentally isolating. I get annoyed enough when friends don't | look up from their phones. | | The remaining obstacles for VR to conquer seem to be arguably | bigger problems than the ones that self driving cars need to | tackle to take over the roads. | onlyrealcuzzo wrote: | > This brings up another issue, VR is fundamentally isolation. | | Wait. Why? Online games exist. They're social. | | I'm not really a gamer. But it's interesting why social | interaction in online video games is some secondary tier to | social interaction playing basketball, for example, or just | talking in coffee shop - or on the phone... | WJW wrote: | It's not that you can't have social interactions in a (VR) | game, but someone with VR goggles on is extremely | unapproachable for other people in the same room. | AlexandrB wrote: | Social interaction in video games is second tier because it's | vastly lower bandwidth than real life social interaction. 3 | senses - taste, touch, smell - are completely missing. Audio | is present, but often sounds distorted, disconnected, or | ethereal - i.e. "off". Meanwhile, visually you only gets to | experience the virtual space you're interacting in which is | rife with limitations. In particular, body language from | those around you is either missing entirely or is very | rudimentary. | | Though I'd say interaction in games can easily beat "talking | on the phone". | ar_te wrote: | My profesor at Uni predicted, that the next computer revolution | will be "invisible computing". That firstly basically all | everyday items will get chips inside (ie "Smart Things", it was | way before Iphone &co) and then computing will bee something in | the background. IDK, but it seems plausible to me and looks | like we are moving into such future. VR is not compatible with | that vision. Most ppl prefer real life to escapism. And event | if you want to escape drugs are more fun and more addictive. | WillPostForFood wrote: | _Most ppl prefer real life to escapism._ | | I dunno, escapist industries are pretty big, and occupy quite | a big of most people's non-work waking life. Film, tv, video | games, books, comics, social media, etc.. | nathias wrote: | I'm waiting for contact lenses with a good enough resolution to | serve as a screen replacement and cyberdecks replace laptops ... | [deleted] | ahelwer wrote: | Meta's VR tech is undeniably amazing. I picked up a quest 2 off | craigslist and was blown away - wirelessly streaming VR games to | the headset over wifi is the first time I felt the technology had | actually arrived. The resolution is also good enough to use it | for actual work with text on virtual screens. It's conceivable | that the standard workstation + monitors setup will be a thing of | the past by the end of the decade. | | It is sad that we are unavoidably headed to a world where a | company like Meta monopolizes control of two of our five | traditional senses (sight and sound). Their business model is | based on behavior modification and I fully expect their highly- | compensated employees to be endlessly creative in the application | of headsets to that end. The sheer scale of R&D expenditure | required to get realistic/usable VR is daunting and seems beyond | FOSS capabilities. Not just hardware, but software like SLAM/VIO | or image processing. I backed the Simula One headset but the | disparity in development resources between them and meta is | pretty astounding. | curiousgal wrote: | > _headed to a world [...]_ | | I am always astounded by such claims, like have you guys ever | travelled outside the Western hemisphere at all? | Helitico wrote: | I'm really really curiuos who will win this bet. | | I also have a htc vive pro + wireless transmitter + highend pc | and i don't think at all that this will replace a normal | monitor setup on a table. | | Why? | | Because wearing a headset on your head is just cumbersome. | | I don't think anyone would ever sit in any outdoor setup with a | VR headset on their heads because it looks idiotic, it ruins | your hair and its too expensive to let it lay around. | | And at home? At home people stoped wearing pants why would they | give up a good display for a headset? | lostmsu wrote: | > because it looks idiotic | | This is exactly what people thought of 5+ inch phone screens, | and now nobody cares. | snarfy wrote: | "We can sell 80 percent of the screen WITHOUT inducing | seizures!" | snowwrestler wrote: | I find myself constantly surprised in threads like this. The | few times I've tried VR sets (including a Quest 2), I found the | resolution to be shockingly low. It's easy to overlook when the | image is moving, which is most of the time in games for | example. Just like Jurassic Park still looks great despite | having HD res computer graphics. | | But sitting stock still, I was so distracted by big obvious | pixels. I can't imagine trying to do real work with text at | that resolution. | mdorazio wrote: | Don't worry, you're not alone. During the pandemic, one of my | clients got about 20 Quest 2s for employees to have at home | in an effort to make people feel more in touch and experiment | with VR meetings & workspaces. After the novelty wore off, | usage dropped to basically zero and I don't know anyone who | uses theirs now for anything besides games. | | For me, Quest 2 is very obviously a "not there yet" product | that seems to mostly appeal to kids and people who don't | actually care about graphics or comfort. It's hot, battery | life is bad, strapping over a pound on your face for hours at | a time is not fun, and the graphics are visibly bad - even | just sitting still the edges are horribly aliased and the | screen door effect is massively apparent. Plus the nausea for | many people, and the complete lack of spatial awareness. I | will say that untethered is massively better than tethered, | though, even with the graphics penalty. Quest 4 (I don't | think v3 will be a big enough improvement) or whatever Apple | eventually releases might actually be appealing, though. | rob74 wrote: | So, "Project Cambria" is really a "Cambrian Explosion" of | prototypes? | colordrops wrote: | They are missing some items from their "VR Turing Test: | | * Full field of view. | | * Not having the feel of a clunky headset on your face. | | * Not having to regularly align and adjust the headset so that | the visual looks right. | llllllllllll9 wrote: | phkahler wrote: | That's nice, but one thing that will be needed more is a wider | field of view and the ability to look around by moving your eyes | instead of your head. | | All of these goals can be achieved with real holographic | displays. We need the equivalent of a GPU optimised for | computational holography, and a display with high enough | resolution to render phase coherent interference patterns (rgb | omg). No lenses will be required. This is the endgame for | wearable displays. | schaefer wrote: | Can I please just have a 3d window manager? No, not mapping my 2d | desktop onto a single surface in 3d. | | A true 3d native window manager. where I can arrange each | individual window anywhere in the 360 degree space? | | Until that is solid, VR is not the productivity tool I was hoping | it can be. | | Just like Mobile(ios, android), Microsoft could not possibly drop | the ball any harder here. | lancesells wrote: | I find the concepts of working with 2D windows or planes in a | VR setting to be so odd. Isn't using a monitor in physical | space better in every way? What am I missing? | YetAnotherNick wrote: | You can have multiple 100 inch monitors for which you can | change the position in seconds. | AlexandrB wrote: | As someone who still uses pen and paper for sketching out ideas | and books for reference, I do not understand the appeal of VR | for productivity. Going from 2 to 3 monitors was only a slight | productivity improvement for me - one monitor is now dedicated | to Slack. Being able to have a huge viewable space to work in | seems like it's not going to be that much better. Meanwhile | there is fatigue from the headset, having to charge (or tether) | a thing you're always wearing, and a disconnect from the | physical world which makes some things less convenient (e.g. | writing things down). | | Finally, there's an issue of who owns and controls the space | you work in. With WFH, it's nice to be in a space that I fully | control and can customize to my needs. If history is any guide, | a VR space will become heavily monetized, if not by Meta then | by someone else. And the possibilities for surveillance - | either by your employer or the "owner" of the space - are now | limitless. I'm not naive enough to think that history won't | repeat itself. | eikenberry wrote: | Why measure it by productivity? I mean it is one measure, but | far from the most important and probably has very little to | do with anyone's attraction to VR as a medium. And just stick | with FLOSS software and you neither have to worry about | lockin/monitization nor do you have to worry about | surveillance. | Closi wrote: | Eh, depends on your industry and the application. | | Would you agree that it might be useful for architects or | product designers to see the things they are designing | instantly at the right scale? | | New technologies don't have to be a full replacement of your | whole workflow, they can just augment it. | JeffeFawkes wrote: | Windows Mixed Reality does this, and remarkably well. Launch an | app from the VR "start menu" and it'll open as a floating | window positionable in 3D space. Bonus is that you can use your | mouse and keyboard still in VR, with mouse / keyboard focus on | the window you're gazing at. | | Downside: as far as I know, you need a WMR headset to use it. | There might be mods to use the Mixed Reality Portal (the VR | window manager) with other headsets, though. | | Here's a random YouTube video demonstrating it: | https://youtu.be/gPkcDg8IECU | schaefer wrote: | Thanks, I haven't tried Windows Mixed reality yet. I don't | know if it's compatible with the Varjo Aero headset, but I'll | try later tonight. | andybak wrote: | Sorry to tell you but it isn't. | | Still too many walled gardens. | jackbrookes wrote: | You can do this on the Oculus PC app with Oculus Dash | usrn wrote: | I've been saying this for half a decade now. It's really the | only thing that would ever make me consider buying a VR | headset. | | I've thought about building something myself but honestly all | the crap in X11 is too distracting anyway and half the time I | just switch to VTs to focus. | whateveracct wrote: | SimulaVR is working on it! | lewispollard wrote: | Yes. | | https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula | schaefer wrote: | I'm aware of the Simula project. | | But it isn't compatible with my varjo aero headset - which is | limited to Windows only. | | If I had truly understood that windows doesn't have a native | 3d window manager for VR, there's no way I would have bought | the Aero. | thinkingemote wrote: | VR as a future is tied into "identity" and certain group | identities, some of which we see clearly now in social media. | | Identities which someone can invent for themselves which can be | independent generally from geography, genetics, looks, | temperament, age etc. Freedom to be whoever and whatever you want | to be. Today's social VR users are often playing with their own | identity right now. | | It's all about image, a spectacle, a way to make personalities | and reality flexible and it's a way for identity to be expressed | as a kind of collection of things that can be commodified and | packaged up for sale. That's the future which is looked at. | | However I think we might see a genuine sub culture emerging, as a | reaction against this. We can possibly see some of this in some | of the language used in a few strange semi-underground youth | music events today. It's not anti tech, and not anti identity at | all! More like a demand to be in control of their own methods and | ways of consumption. A certain ironic detachment from | corporations. | pyb wrote: | I don't know if this stuff is genuinely indispensable and novel, | or if they're preparing to create a patent thicket around VR ? | What would industry insiders think ? | SilverBirch wrote: | This is quite interesting actually, because this sort of directly | lays out "Here are 3 difficult technical problems we need to | solve for a VR headset" - Resoution, Focal depth, high dynamic | range. | | I'm not an expert in the area, but resolution and HDR seem like | basically solved problems - in that they're just logical | progressions of where we are today. The focal depth one I didn't | understand. He says normal monitors are a fixed distance, whereas | in VR and AR you need to focus on different distances. But these | VR headsets _are_ just a fixed distance away, so how is that | really a problem? | | Fundamentally these problems are clearly necessary buticie not | sufficient for VR. | svet_0 wrote: | > this sort of directly lays out "Here are 3 difficult | technical problems we need to solve for a VR headset" | | It lays out the problems Meta had most progress in. Another | very significant VR metric is FOV which was not discussed. | | > He says normal monitors are a fixed distance, whereas in VR | and AR you need to focus on different distances. But these VR | headsets are just a fixed distance away, so how is that really | a problem? | | You want dynamic focus to convey the feeling of real world eye | focus, and make the projected scene more natural/believable. | idiotsecant wrote: | The focal depth thing is related to a human vision system | bug/feature - Your eyes want to change their 'vergence' at the | same time they change focal distance. This is sort of a hard- | coded geometry solution. When you want something close your | brain crosses your eyes a bit, adjusts the image to your brain, | and changes focus. When you look far away your eyes uncross a | bit, apply another transform to the result, and change focus | again. Getting the eye-crossing and simultaneously trying not | to change focus is one of the things that gives people eye | strain and headaches when using VR. | PaulHoule wrote: | Your brain puts together multiple 3-d cues. If you are looking | directly at something the angle of your two eyeballs is a | little different dependening on the distance and this is | vergence. | | Your eyes also focus like the autofocus of a camera and the cue | from that is called accommodation. | | The two should match to provide perfect perception on reality. | Certainly a VR headset works with a fixed focus for everything, | but to get the ultimate perception of reality without eye | strain a VR headset should be able to simulate focusing | distance. | | (Who knows, however? Meta's Super Bowl ad might be revealing | their real intentions. In that ad a discarded animatronic | Android gets to relive its past with VR. VR is good for the | elderly because you can enjoy it without learning anything new. | I think one of the worst things about getting old that I | experience is presbyopia where you can't focus over the whole | range so you have to wear two pairs of glasses. Maybe I'd find | it easier just to have it all in focus all the time.) | ar_te wrote: | Solved but still not enough to make it seem reel. He said that | natural light has 10x more dynamic range than best monitors | available. As to focal depth - in real world there is no | "screen", your eyes (or perhaps brain:) can decide which what | you want focus on and what can stay blurred. On screen | everything is in focus, so you need to make fake blur. But you | need to know what user is focusing on. So you need to read | retina movements to guess. Sounds like complicated and hard | problem to me. | [deleted] | InitialLastName wrote: | > But these VR headsets are just a fixed distance away, so how | is that really a problem? | | Focal depth is one of the cues your brain uses to perceive | distance, in addition to (potentially more than, depending on | which cognitive scientist you listen to) binocular vision. You | don't mind that monitors are a fixed distance from your eyes | because you don't expect them to give you real depth (your eyes | can just focus on that distance). If, however, you want | something to be "indistinguishable from reality" you need to | emulate changing focal depth, which means (I guess) changing | the angles that rays hit your eyeballs at. | | IMO that's one of the reasons that 3D movies always looked so | fakey; they could emulate the binocular vision, but they | couldn't emulate the focal depth, causing a perceptual | dissonance. | kurthr wrote: | There are multiple ways that your eye/brain senses depth: | binocular vision/vergence, lens focus, and relative | correlated motion to name three. When these depth cues don't | match each other well, it is distracting and can cause | fatigue or headaches after extended use. | DogOnTheWeb wrote: | On focal depth: In the real world you can look at an object | close up and your eyes will adjust so that it is clear and | objects at other ranges are blurry. Then, when you look at an | object far away your eyes re-adjust focus. | | You can test this by looking at your hand 6" from your face so | it partially blocks your keyboard a couple feet away. You'll | notice that either the keys are blurry or your hand is as you | shift focus between the two. | | Future gen headsets will use eye tracking to understand which | object in a scene you are looking at, and make that object | sharp while making other objects blurry. This helps produce | more realistic depth, while also dramatically improving | performance as most of the scene can be rendered in lower | resolution. | benoliver999 wrote: | This is key to me. I have a quest 2 and I don't like having | to move my head instead of my eyes. | kurthr wrote: | I'd throw in 2 more, power/heat and weight. | | However, the resolution/refresh-rate needed for immersive VR/MR | is not quite a solved problem. If you assume something like | 100deg horizontal and vertical for each eye and something like | retina (not screen door or blurry) 40-60pix/deg resolution, | you're looking at 5k x 5k per eye at 120-180Hz for 2 eyes. You | can't do that over a single DP 2.0 link, and it would be too | power hungry anyway. That leads to a requirement for fast eye- | tracking and foveal rendering (only rapidly refresh where | you're looking in high resolution)... and gains you ~10x | reduction in bandwidth/power. | | Then you get to directly monitor the user's attention, build a | DL model of their attention, optimize it for maximum | interaction, and sell the model to the highest bidder. | jayd16 wrote: | When you look at a monitor, you're looking at a quad at a set | distance. Your eyes are focused on that quad in the exact same | way they would focus on anything at that distance. | | In VR, dynamic depth is simulated using stereo-screens where | each pupil is pointed at a dynamic focal point BUT stero-focus | is not the same as lens focus. Because of this, VR produces a | disjoint sensation where stereo focus changes to the simulated | position but lens focus remains fixed. | | You can experience the difference by holding up a finger and | looking at it, then look at a distant object. Notice that | you'll see two images of your finger as you focus away. That is | stereo focus. Now do the same while covering one eye. Notice | that the finger is now blurry but not doubled. That would be | the lens focal difference. | SilverBirch wrote: | Ah yeah, I had forgotten about the issue of presenting | separate views to each eye, good point. | evan_ wrote: | The screen being a fixed distance _is_ the issue. The holy | grail would be a system that fools your eyes and makes you | think that it isn 't at a fixed distance- something like | eyeball tracking that detects, instantly, what you're focusing | on, and adjusts the perceived focal distance based on how far | away the cluster of pixels you're looking at is meant to be. | This would improve immersion. | | HDR is trickier than you think because devices like cell phones | can improve their dynamic range by just making the screens | brighter- increasing the range by raising the top end- but | there's a certain cutoff on how bright a VR screen can be and | still be comfortable. | ntoskrnl wrote: | > The focal depth one I didn't understand. | | I think the idea is simulating depth of field by blurring | different parts of the image based on where the user's eye is | looking. | Geee wrote: | Cool, but I'm never buying anything from Zuckerberg. | sfblah wrote: | They must be losing money on the Quest 2, so there's that... | mihaifm wrote: | I think one of the greatest barriers to VR adoption is not | resolution etc. but motion sickness. It is caused by the | conflicting signals the brain receives from the body and from the | eyes. Currently the only way to get rid of it is through | training, but I'm not sure how many people are willing to go | through the process. It took me about a month to fully get rid of | it, but I assume it vastly differs from person to person. | dataangel wrote: | A lot of people have found motion sickness in VR is actually | usually driven by refresh rate. They get sick because the | screen doesn't update as fast as reality. If you have the | chance to try a Valve Index, they have the ability (not default | setting though) to go to 144hz, and you may experience way less | sickness. The Quest and Quest2 can't go that high. | krasin wrote: | Anecdotal evidence: I used to get motion sick in cars, but | after playing hundreds of hours in Beat Saber on my Quest, no | more. I can bear road trips just fine. | | So, VR is the training. | Karupan wrote: | As someone who has sever motion sickness in general, I'm | curious to understand how you got rid of it. Is there some | specific training routine? | mihaifm wrote: | There's no easy way around it. I enabled continuous motion in | a few games and practiced for a few minutes until I could no | longer tolerate it. Try feeling the ground with your feet, | that helps a lot. The interesting part is that when you lose | motion sickness you also lose some of the VR immersion, it's | like telling the brain "this is not real, it's the body you | need to trust not the eyes". | notyourwork wrote: | It's been this way from the very start of virtual reality. It is | called reality after all. What's so special about Meta? | kache_ wrote: | Reality approximating VR will a huge boon for our fight against | global warming & our capacity to use gas/fuel on things more | important than transportation to conferences & offices. | poisonarena wrote: | as long as someone is doing it | spywaregorilla wrote: | Kind of cool. But none of these seem to address the real problems | VR has. There's no VR content that is held back by the graphical | fidelity atm. Aside from maybe porn. | sio8ohPi wrote: | Agreed. I play combat flight sims in VR almost daily, and even | with that genre's high FOV and resolution demands, I think most | of us are bottlenecked more by GPU performance and software | tools than HMD resolution or dynamic range. (Reduced edge | distortion would be fantastic, though.) | | It's weird to me that these multi-billion dollar companies are | investing so much R&D money into supporting my niche hobby, but | I suppose I shouldn't complain. | s0rce wrote: | if you build it they will come | spywaregorilla wrote: | They haven't come for the past several years of VR tech | marginalia_nu wrote: | Years is a generous way of putting it. This tech has been | doing the rounds for quite a while: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtuality_(product) | marginalia_nu wrote: | Dunno, I think VR content will always just be shallow novelty | experiences until it gets smoother to use, and being able to | for example read text goes along way toward fixing that. Better | hand controls would also help, I don't think VR without haptic | feedback is really viable. | | Solve that set of problems, and you might get to a point where | you could build actually useful things in VR. Like a work | environment for CAD or 3D modelling or whatever that has actual | benefits over traditional interfaces. | sergiotapia wrote: | I absolutely don't use my valve index as much because of the | mess of cables and now my desk is in a weird spot colliding | with my tracking stations. | | I also don't use my quest 2 because the fidelity just isn't | good enough. | spywaregorilla wrote: | So what would you do if you had an index quality quest 2? | sergiotapia wrote: | I had a blast playing pokerstars vr, it's just fun to | hangout in that VR space. I would probably play a lot more | rec room. again fun to just hang out in that space. | | I think whoever solves the casualness of VR will become the | next big tech giant. It is looking like Facebook will come | back HARD. | krasin wrote: | >There's no VR content that is held back by the graphical | fidelity atm. | | As mentioned by the other comment, the ability to read text | clearly is important and missing. That holds back a lot of | productivity use cases. | spywaregorilla wrote: | Maybe. I don't see many people working in VR though. | dmix wrote: | You'd think so but I keep hearing more and more people | trying to do this. Never made sense to me but it apparently | works for some people. | spywaregorilla wrote: | What kind of work? | MacsHeadroom wrote: | I develop financial software and sysadmin in VR (/AR pass | through for keyboard) on a Meta Quest 2, streaming a | cloud "gaming" PC wirelessly. | | Unlimited weightless 60 inch monitors which fit in a | single laptop bag is real nice. 10 hour battery life with | a pocket sized battery pack. Unlimited with a 12ft USB-C | cable. | | The only thing I can see making it better for what I do | is higher text fidelity. Anything else would be a luxury, | and unnecessary for repeated full days in VR. | bitcurious wrote: | > There's no VR content that is held back by the graphical | fidelity atm. | | Sort of. Discomfort/nausea issues hold back VR and will be | addressed by this work. | Barrin92 wrote: | >graphical fidelity | | it also seems like a wrong goal in general because to me the | entire point of VR is that it's _not_ bound to physical | reality, investing billions of dollars so you can sit on a | photorealistic sofa I think defeats the purpose. I think the | popularity of Minecraft, Fortnite or VRChat shows that people | aren 't looking for realism but interesting experiences you | _can 't_ have offline, with community being the most important | thing. | spywaregorilla wrote: | Photorealism isn't a good descriptor for just being able to | look at things and have your eyes work properly. | epgui wrote: | I would argue that VR aims to be more than just photorealism, | but that photorealism is still very important for a range of | use cases within VR. | bravogamma wrote: | Why do you expect the content to precede the platform? | spywaregorilla wrote: | Well I don't consider better graphics to be a new platform. | lattalayta wrote: | A lot of those prototypes seem to cater to common complaints | from first-time or casual VR users - eye strain, focus, | fatigue, and weight. I think iterating on these aspects of | comfort is important for VR adoption. | | Personally, I don't really want or look forward to a future | where people spend a lot of time in a headset, but if there | were a lightweight, comfortable option it would be fun to | explore experiences every once in awhile. | 0xakhil wrote: | It might be difficult for us to imagine a shift to VR version of | social media. But think about the next generation of kids growing | up with these kind of techs. They will mass adopt them and we | will follow. For Facebook, it was millennials who adopted first | and for Snapchat/tiktok, GenZ. | | And Facebook will get the opportunity to own the platform | completely for the first time. So the soon they reach their goal, | the better. Actually, it is a smart move. | heavyset_go wrote: | If you look at a lot of Facebook's VR advertising campaigns, | they're spending a lot of money on advertising to kids, making | VR seem like a place they and their friends can get together | and experience cool things. | planetsprite wrote: | I find it charming Zuckerberg actually seems to care about this | stuff. He of course wants every human interaction to be | monetizable by Facebook, total control of our dopamine channels, | etc. but I think beyond that, deep down, he's just a nerd who | wants to live in a VR dreamland to shut out the millions of | people who call him a weird lizard. | Helitico wrote: | Good if someone like him cares about something. | | It would be much greater if he actually cared for society and | would fix what he did with facebook, addicted mobile/facebook | games and fake news. | | But hey now the poor can have a 1-2k high quality VR Headset | with full immersion to see others in a VR Chat while living in | a dumpster. | | --- | | On a more non emotional side: Of course i like the idea of a | high quality VR Headset but i'm not sure what FB thinks what | this will do for FB. Those millions/billions they invested in | their Metaverse will not become something great. | | I'm still very confinced that VR is a novelity and nothing | people will just be in all day long. Why would they? | | Lets compare it to others: | | Apple key notes are about new hardware, new usability. | | Google IO has a ton of diversity, doing things for society. | They talk about taking good pictures of people with all type of | skin tones. They talk about 24/7 sustainability, better and | easier security, protecting their users, skin mold detection | and they have android. | | What is Meta talking about? How to put all of us into a VR | world with probably a ton of monetarization. Awesome \o/ the | poor who can't afford their own house/home are then sitting in | a cheap/bad flat, sitting in a chair with a VR Headset on? | | And of course there will be a handful people playing around | with this, but you know Second Live is also probably still | running... | | Google is one of the few companies were their Keynotes are so | boring because they actually fix real life boring shit which | affects us all. | CompuHacker wrote: | There exist people now who spend all of their sleeping time, | and the majority of their waking time in primitive virtual | environments while wearing incommensurately cheap hardware, | speaking with almost nobody, over Internet connections barely | fit for the task of voice, let alone streaming video. There | exists appeal, for a few. You can do a lot with an avatar | making one of two faces. | kache_ wrote: | rl3 wrote: | > _... but I think beyond that, deep down, he 's just a nerd | who wants to live in a VR dreamland to shut out the millions of | people who call him a weird lizard._ | | I mean, in his defense he might be pretty normal by lizard | standards, I don't know. Calling him weird just seems | unnecessary in that context. | | > _He of course wants every human interaction to be monetizable | by Facebook, total control of our dopamine channels, ..._ | | I agree. It'd be a much better future for everyone if he'd just | throw his advertising biz in the garbage. Apple is going to | kick Meta's ass in the long run just by virtue of their privacy | stance--which isn't all that great to begin with, but it sure | does beat "our intent is to sell every iota of information we | collect on you." | lettergram wrote: | Apple scans your iCloud for illicit photos and sends them to | police. I don't think Apple has any privacy stance worth | recognizing. | | https://techcrunch.com/2021/08/05/apple-icloud-photos- | scanni... | snowwrestler wrote: | One month later... | | > Apple delays plans to roll out CSAM detection in iOS 15 | after privacy backlash | | https://techcrunch.com/2021/09/03/apple-csam-detection- | delay... | zdragnar wrote: | They poisoned the well by showing they were willing to do | it in the first place. | | Instead of the baseline being they probably are privacy | first, now it is "carefully inspect every announcement to | see if they are backtracking yet again" | | I don't really envy their position; if I built a business | that sold hardware and software and found out that | customers were using my product to distribute child porn, | I would probably be willing to abandon lesser principals | too. | Rebelgecko wrote: | That article is talking about the on-device scanning | which IIRC never actually rolled out. That's separate | from the iCloud scanning which they still do. | [deleted] | planetsprite wrote: | There's a reconciliation, necessarily in a civil society, | between promoting privacy and doing what's possible to stop | child abuse. Should Apple allow child porn to be hosted on | its cloud servers since that's the pro-privacy stance? | [deleted] | ahtihn wrote: | I don't think they should knowingly allow it. On the | other hand I don't think they should do anything about it | proactively. | bckr wrote: | > Should Apple allow [child abuse material] to be hosted | on its cloud servers since that's the pro-privacy stance? | | No they should not. | rl3 wrote: | Right, but the comparison here is that Meta also does this, | _in addition_ to selling every iota of information they | have you. | | Content scanning is just an assumed part of every major | tech platform these days. That of course doesn't | necessarily make it right, but it still places Apple's | privacy stance significantly ahead of Meta. | murderfs wrote: | People keep repeating the refrain of Google/Facebook | selling your data, but is there any evidence of a single | case where this actually happened? They _use_ your data, | to let advertisers target specific subgroups of the | population. The companies that you should be concerned | about selling your data aren 't the advertising | companies, they're the financial companies that _are_ | literally selling your transaction data to those and | other companies. | swatcoder wrote: | It may not be _good enough_ , but I think we can | acknowledge that caving to political pressure is a very | different posture than building your entire business model | around monetizing antiprivacy. | oneplane wrote: | Yep, just like Google, Dropbox, Box, Microsoft and pretty | much anyone else who wants to store photos in the US. | umanwizard wrote: | Facebook does not sell users' information. It uses their | information to target ads, which it sells. | | You might also be against the latter, fine! That's a | perfectly reasonable position to hold. But don't muddy the | waters by calling it something fundamentally different. | ethbr0 wrote: | > _Apple is going to kick Meta 's ass in the long run just by | virtue of their privacy stance_ | | I think you're discounting (ha) the allure of free/cheap to | people who don't have disposable income. Which is to say, | most people. | cyanydeez wrote: | You refer to poor people. | | "You're forgetting the poor people" | FredPret wrote: | But there is zero money to be made out of people who have | zero money. | rl3 wrote: | > _But there is zero money to be made out of people who | have zero money._ | | That's not true. That's why credit exists. Selling poor | people shit they can't afford with terrible terms is a | long-standing American tradition. | | When a debtor is unable to pay (often times through no | fault of their own), the creditor eats the cost because | their margins are good enough to allow for it. That | effectively represents a wealth transfer between | corporations providing the services and the corporations | providing the credit. | echelon wrote: | The creditor doesn't put a lien on the debtor's house, | repossess their goods, or take them to court? | | Obviously this happens with mortgages, cars, and other | extremely high value things. IRS debts, student loan | debts... | | But what about credit cards? Don't they have mechanisms | other than tanking your credit report? And if not, why | don't poor indebted people simply default all the time to | remove debt? | kwizzt wrote: | I would argue there is money to be made out of people | with zero money. Student loans are an example. Instead of | zero money, they now have negative money. This is | terrible ofc. | germinalphrase wrote: | Zero money _now_ - but one must be ready to skim the | cream off their _raw human potential_. | bee_rider wrote: | It'll be interesting to see where this goes. If VR becomes | a big thing and we get to the point where an appreciable | chunk of social interactions start to take place over it | (huge if), the device would at least be as significant as | your phone. | | People in the US are willing to spend extra on the Apple | phone. There's already drama over the stupid blue | text/green text thing, imagine a world where you know that | your social interactions with a Facebook user are snooped | on. I think it could lead to some significant | ostracization. Private party -- no Facebookers. | kmonsen wrote: | Isn't part of the reason people are spending on iPhone | that they can signal wealth to friends? From what I | remember Apple always sells more when then introduce new | golden colors so people can show they have the new | device. | amelius wrote: | Inside VR you can have a phone with diamonds for no extra | $. | | Thinking about it, those diamond-lacking iPhones look | quite shabby, already! | tjr225 wrote: | Have you ever been in the Apple ecosystem? Its not | perfect but it beats anything else as far as UX is | concerned. | germinalphrase wrote: | Reality shaping, not snooping, will be the primary | concern. | rl3 wrote: | You're probably right, though I don't think it all comes | down to disposable income. | | Laziness, apathy and network effects are perhaps equally | powerful forces. After all, I continue to use Google and | Instagram despite my knowing how the sausage is made there. | krapp wrote: | > I mean, in his defense he might be pretty normal by lizard | standards, I don't know. Calling him weird just seems | unnecessary in that context. | | All the other lizards manage to blend in just fine, except | for the occasional slip-up that gets caught on Youtube. Mark | Zuckerberg acts like he slept through every day of the how to | human seminar on the lizard mothership. | lvass wrote: | >their privacy stance | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM | ntoskrnl wrote: | I've never heard of any other lizard that eats Sweet Baby | Rays. By lizard standards that's pretty weird. | mortenjorck wrote: | There's an alternate universe where Zuckerberg takes Yahoo's | $1B offer for Facebook in 2006 (which Yahoo sells a decade | later to Pinboard for $100k) and becomes more of an Elon Musk | figure, investing in and running a handful of forward- | thinking businesses. | | Imagine Oculus becoming Meta without the Facebook baggage - a | hardware-focused company with a major services play, but no | adtech business. | rl3 wrote: | > _Imagine Oculus becoming Meta without the Facebook | baggage - a hardware-focused company with a major services | play, but no adtech business._ | | I think this was called Magic Leap. I don't know, I think I | still prefer Rony Abovitz awkwardly dancing around in a | space suit rather than Zuck. | germinalphrase wrote: | A cautionary tale - for a certain kind of person. | [deleted] | idiotsecant wrote: | Poor billionaire Zuck, all he has to comfort him is swimming in | his giant pool full of scrooge mcduck gold. | systemvoltage wrote: | Worth watching his interview with Lex Fridman. He seems like a | decent guy, genuinely nerdy and smart. | kelseyfrog wrote: | It's a really good example of how media shapes our | perceptions of villains in a way that makes us unable to see | how villainous behavior works in the real world. In short, | the tendency to reinforce attributive simplicity especially | in moral terms, means that a decency and relateableness | become ineffective socio-moral proxies. | scyzoryk_xyz wrote: | I think it's so strange that people are calling him a "Weird | Lizard". "Weird Lizard" is a mouthful - plenty of other names | worth calling him and his monopoly. I highly doubt his VR dream | is anything more than an anti-antitrust maneuver. | bckr wrote: | How about "Sauron". | | [] https://www.google.com/search?q=zuckerberg+sauron | ben_w wrote: | I'm kinda surprised, I'd have guessed Smaug if people were | going to associate him with a Tolkien villain. | dwighttk wrote: | I dunno... big eye that can see all over the world | through palantirs | SalmoShalazar wrote: | This was legitimately the most humanizing piece of media I've | seen from Zuckerberg. It helps that I find VR fascinating, and | seeing him engage with it beyond a superficial corporate level | like I'd expect was refreshing. | yreg wrote: | I found his recent conversation with Lex[0] interesting | (though I haven't listened to all of it). It is obvious that | he is personally interested in the future of VR. When he | talks about it, he seems more relatable than usual. | | [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zOHSysMmH0 | dmix wrote: | For the price point Quest 2 really is an amazing product. | | We're really getting to the point where it's mainstreaming. | oofbey wrote: | They're taking a loss on every unit sold. They can afford to | this because they have a firehose of cash from FB, and they | believe this is the "next big thing" so they want to | establish dominance. Sadly, it's almost certainly gonna work. | The content ecosystem will follow the user base, and a $300 | headset will outsell a >$1k setup by a huge factor. | colinmhayes wrote: | The money is in the app store. Video game console sell at | cost as far as I know, but they make a killing over their | lifetime because they make $15 on every game sold. | shafyy wrote: | Exactly. It's like saying Gilette or Nespresso lose money | per unit sold. Sure, but they make it up with replacement | razors and espresso capsules. | bitshiftfaced wrote: | Nah, there's enough big players out there, and the tech | will continue to get better and cheaper. I think Meta might | be surprised by how many potential customers will run to | their competitors if it means they don't need to have a | Facebook account to use VR. | welcitop wrote: | I'm already worried for boys. | | When I think about who would have the time and motivation | to sit in a VR world all day long I can not imagine girls | or a lot of adults of some type. | | I really struggle seeing anyone outside of a private space | wearing it in public, in an office or public transport. It | looks weird. It removes you from reality and your | surroundings. | | So who is left? Boys? Already single man motivation for | playing the same games all day long like egoshooters etc. | | Porn will be a motivation for sure. | mrfusion wrote: | Do you still need a Facebook account? | epgui wrote: | I was extremely skeptical of VR until I got a Quest 2 and | spent a bit of time with it. I used to think it was just a | tech gimmick that added no value, but I think I was wrong and | I've completely reversed my stance on the idea. This device | is still rather primitive and far from great, but IMO it's | just good enough to show you what's possible in the very near | future. | | I still really hate facebook/meta and don't have a lot of | faith that they can make the world a better place, but I now | feel like VR can add a lot of real value and is fundamentally | a good goal. | Helitico wrote: | But what do you do with it? | | How often? | | How is your long term motivation? | shafyy wrote: | No OP, but I mostly use it to play "hangout" games with | friends who live in different countries, such as ping | pong or minigolf. Much more fun to hang out and play a | casual game and talk than sitting in a Zoom call with | them. Sometimes I also play a quick round of Beat Saber | or some other game. | | How often? Couple of hours a month | | Long term motivation? Do more social stuff with remote | friends and, once it's more comfortable to wear for more | than two hours straight, also work in VR. | mathstuf wrote: | I find it very underwhelming (and I was already suspicious | to begin with). My wife got one for a conference and after | doing the First Steps and being used for her conference, | it's basically just gathered dust other than showing | friends First Steps (after recharging it because it's just | been sitting in its box for weeks or months). The Jurassic | Park/World/whatever game was OK, but I was basically bored | after an hour or two (I did not find it very immersive at | least). Certainly not groundbreaking. My mom has it now and | enjoys the roller coaster sim (which is quite vertigo- | inducing and limits the playtime substantially), but | without shelling out cash for unknown-quality software | (something I find too risky at their price points) it's | basically just a few gimmicks so far in my experience. | oneoff786 wrote: | Same. I'm always surprised by all these people on HN who | claim to have had epiphanies trying the product. | Especially the ones who seem to think wireless is the | game changer when you're still walking around a 5x5m | space and relying on other inputs for actual movement. | jayd16 wrote: | Sounds like you've played next to nothing on it. Try "I | Expect You to Die" or "Beat Saber" or even "Halflife | Alyx" if you have the PC for it. | moron4hire wrote: | I mean, you've basically done nothing with the device. | How can you claim it's not any good when you haven't even | seen the fair-to-middling parts (Say nothing of the | actually good parts)? | | "Basically a few gimmicks" yet refuses to do any basic | research and buy a few games to actually try it out. Huh. | ggambetta wrote: | Try Pavlov Shack :) | [deleted] | oofbey wrote: | No I'm pretty sure his only interest in VR is to control our | dopamine channels as completely as possible. He may be a nerd, | but he's Machiavellian to the core and will do anything he can | to amass power to control other humans. Things like legality | and morality merely provide guidance to him on how other people | will react to his efforts. His biggest challenge has always | been convincing his employees that what they're doing has merit | and is not pure evil. Generally that has worked by paying them | tons of money and telling them they're special snowflakes. | Slix wrote: | I'm excited by improvements in VR technology. Varifocal lenses | would solve one of the weirder problems in VR: that you can't | change your focal point. | gabea wrote: | AR/VR is inevitable. I find it astonishing that there are so many | naysayers on HN, a community that in its early days embraced | technology innovation. Today's VR (and even AR via Mobile Phones) | is primitive, sure, but the same could be said about desktop | computers before the transition to mobile ever was an idea? | | I expect more comments on how to influence this technology versus | dismissing it as not applicable for the human race. | kashkhan wrote: | Inevitable like robots driving cars, colonizing mars, flying | cars, clones, AGI... | | Assuming the sun doesn't engulf us first. | | Reality is VR will always be distinguishable from reality. | muglug wrote: | I was wowed the first time I put on a VR headset, and I | continue to be wowed every time I try it. But lots of regular | people aren't sufficiently wowed to pay console-level prices | for the experience, which to me indicates that the culprit | isn't just immature technology. | | > AR/VR is inevitable. | | Calling a given technology "inevitable" shuts down criticism. | | There's nothing inevitable about a technology that takes charge | of our two most important senses (sight and hearing) at once. I | think that counts as sensory deprivation to a lot of people. | walleeee wrote: | AR/VR skepticism _is_ an attempt to influence the tech | landscape and imo the most compelling dismissals are not made | on grounds of irrelevance or lack of application but principled | judgements about how we want to interact with the world | | is it particularly surprising that people who know what goes | into the sausages might be skeptical about feeding them to | everyone for every meal? | bckr wrote: | This, extremely this. I wish we were more excited about | volumetric displays or programmable matter, instead. | gigel82 wrote: | It's not though; it's a gimmick. The scenarios aren't there. In | fact, I think the scenarios won't be there for a general | purpose AR/VR device even if they make them as thin as glasses. | Sure, navigation on a bike is nice, and maybe hololens-like | scenarios for manufacturing or high-end industrial support, but | that's it. | | I have an Oculus 2, and before that I've had a couple of | Windows VR headsets when Microsoft was doing their push; | they're all gathering dust in a box now... | Jcowell wrote: | > Sure, navigation on a bike is nice, | | It doesn't just have to be on bike. I would say walking | directions are far more valuable. | | Let's take what I say is the Peak AR Device: | | Glasses with Shuttered Camera + LIDAR, Bone Conducting Audio, | Haptic Feedback, High Quality Microphones, & Smart Assistant. | | Often when I'm out in the city and finding a new place I | would rely on my phone. Often the GPS on my phone would be | screwed since I was underground and I would have to look at | the streets on the map to see where I am relative to where I | need to face and go. On the newer models of the iPhone I can | use it's LIDAR feature to tell it exactly where I am , but | it's cumbersome to wave your phone back and forth. An AR | glasses would already be scanning around, know exactly what | direction your facing , and give you visual indicators of | where to go the whole trip. | | Let's say someone who speaks a different language ask's you a | question like say directions , an often enough encounter | where I'm from. With the strides Apple are making in their | Translate technology (with much more to go), the translated | speech can appear as text right in front on your screen. | Let's say the show you a piece of paper enter in a different | language. That same translate technology can show you a | translated page. AR , if we get there, will be amazing and | all of the technology I said above already exist in mobile | form. | JacobThreeThree wrote: | Sure it's inevitable. | | That doesn't change the fact that the input problem for AR/VR | is not solved. Some VR is trying to solve this by integrating | back in the mouse/keyboard. Others, like Elon, are trying to | leapfrog to human-brain interface. | | Neither of those efforts change the fact that for current AR/VR | your input is lower bandwidth than a smartphone which is | already lower bandwidth than mouse/keyboard. | | This input bandwidth limit means that the applications for the | tech are currently very minimal and means that any product | being sold today is unlikely to do well. | WJW wrote: | I honestly don't see VR ever really taking off before we | manage to solve the "output" problems either. Every sense | except vision and hearing gets ignored. Walking is a complete | mess, because real life furniture tends to get in the way. | Smell and taste are usually completely ignored. Touch tends | to fail completely as soon as you "push through" the haptic | feedback. | | VR is just not very "real", and I don't think we can ever | make it real enough with the tech path it is on. Human brain | interfaces seem like the best bet, but they are so far away | that I don't think they'll be commercially available in my | lifetime. | alexalx666 wrote: | Killer app for VR is new interface to computer imho | Groxx wrote: | Yeah. AR/VR being future heavyweights seems obvious. | | Currently though? They're all kinda shit. And there doesn't | seem to be a clear incremental step from "current" to "good | enough" for a GIGANTIC range of scenarios, so it seems | reasonable to claim "it's not coming any time soon". | | And I say all this as an enthusiast. When resolution and | compute power increases a bit, I'll probably make a real | effort to use VR (AR seems further away) to replace my | desk/monitor(s)/etc for work. But without a ton of effort and | severe tradeoffs, it's not really currently feasible. | root_axis wrote: | This argument is a classic template for enthusiasts when faced | with skeptical push back. Comparing your pet-technology with | the nascent version of something that went on to be incredibly | successful is a very common fallacy that doesn't help your | argument. | ilamont wrote: | For some the "VR is inevitable" predictions clash with past | experience about the coming VR wave, virtual words, and failed | 3D hardware (Google Glass, 3D TV, etc.). For those who invested | time and money into these earlier attempts, it's difficult to | believe that this will be any different despite some undeniably | cool demos and compelling niche use cases. | berberous wrote: | I think you are right based on the media coverage, but I'm | bewildered that anyone who has tried these can equate them. | My personal experience trying all of these when they came out | | 1. Google Glass: This is the most underwhelming and lamest | thing ever. Tried for 20 seconds and never thought about it | again. | | 2. 3DTV: meh, I'dr rather watch 2D. | | 3. Magic Leap / HoloLens: this is way less cool than the | commercials, tiny field of view, incredibly far way from | something actually usable. | | 4. Oculus DK2: jaw dropped, holy shit moments. WOW! | | That's not to say VR is perfect. In fact, it's far enough | away from perfect I currently never use it. But it is so much | more impressive and close to being amazing than these other | categories. | andybak wrote: | This is close to my position. I was completely unimpressed | by 3D TV but VR made me stop what I was doing and learn | Unity. It seems strange to lump them in the same category. | There was no grass roots passion for 3D TV. There's still | tons for VR/AR. | AlexandrB wrote: | For some use cases, AR/VR is already here! There's nothing to | be skeptical about. But I think it's healthy to be skeptical of | the idea that AR/VR can be shoved into every aspect of our | lives and it will make sense. Phones/tablets didn't replace | regular computers for productivity. Will VR do it? Who knows, | but I kind of doubt it. Will every genre of game make sense in | VR? Probably not. | | Then there's also the history of each recent step forward in | technology coming along with increased top-down control and | surveillance. Here, it's especially important to be skeptical | of Meta's influence on VR specifically. I think Meta's goal is | to create a fully walled garden where they can surveil their | users freely to sell ads. An App Store for VR, but with even | more monitoring and advertising. This is not a future I want, | regardless of the benefits of the technology itself. | andybak wrote: | I'm simultaneously a huge advocate of VR/AR as an amazing new | medium and at the same time sceptical about it's chance of | short or medium term mass adoption. | | Can't it just be a niche/enthusiast product for another | decade or so? There's enough people that care and it to keep | our afloat. It doesn't have to shift a billion units | typon wrote: | > I find it astonishing that there are so many naysayers on HN, | a community that in its early days embraced technology | innovation. | | You're creating a false dichotomy - probably unintentionally, | but I find it's important to point it out. As one of these | naysayers, I'm not against VR because I'm somehow skeptical of | futuristic/modern technology (nuclear fusion when?), it's | because I am specifically against VR/AR in the hands of a | megacorp like Facebook. If all this development was happening | in the open, like for example the web developed, I would be | jumping on this yesterday. As someone who's dreamed of the Star | Trek holodeck since I was a child, the thought of becoming an | Oculus dev to pursue this dream does not excite me one bit. | pmontra wrote: | It's not inevitable for the masses until the only way to do it | is a headset. It will be only a tech for specialized markets | and in controlled environments. Gamers, engineers, doctors. | You're not going to do AR/VR while walking or when killing some | time waiting at the restaurant. One reason is that not many | people will carry a cumbersome headset with them. A phone is a | better device for those scenarios. | | Glasses or contact lenses could change that. I can't wear | contact lenses anymore but I wear glasses all the time. Light | glasses, not heavy ones. | sarsway wrote: | I used to think so, it just sounds like it would be "the | future", right? | | But realistically, what exactly is the appeal of it? The | Metaverse? I mean, if no one can figure out how to make a fun | MMORPG these days, what makes you think the "Metaverse" will | actually be something people will want to spend time in? And | why would Facebook be the one who actually figure out how to | build some super appealing virtual world, they have 0% | experience in doing this. It's gonna be boring, in immersive | VR, still boring. And who really wants to wear these headsets? | They always gonna be somewhat bulky. | | But even if you could make it super immersive, and super fun, | and totally appealing, you always gonna be one thing that's | holding you back: Your real body, yes unfortunately we are all | tied to these meat bags, so our dream of moving into our self | created Matrix is always gonna be somewhat limited. | | I mean you gotta be realistic here, no matter what we do, life | will always be best experienced without a VR headset on. It | might have some cool fun uses, but that's about it. | DoneWithAllThat wrote: | So while I'm general I do think some of the fascination with | VR ubiquity is overhyped: this last weekend the Furality VR | furry con was held in VRChat. It had over 5000 registered | attendees and peak simultaneous players was over 4200, with | most of the popular events/times still numbering in the 1000s | of players. | | And that's with VR still very much in the gen 1 (maybe gen 2 | if you want to be generous) phase of development. Within five | or ten years tech like eye and mouth tracking and | partial/full body haptics (which are all already a thing, | just niche) will be typical offerings. | | I don't know to what extent it'll displace existing tech. But | the popularity of it today (especially in spaces where | artists and developers can do whatever they want) is real and | growing crazy fast. | berberous wrote: | I think you are just out of touch. Don't kids already spend | tons of time in Roblox, Minecraft and Fortnite? Fortnite has | concerts by artists like Travis Scott that are massively | attended, fashion areas where you can shop virtual clothing, | etc. You really think this trend will dissipate as the tech | gets better? | shahbaby wrote: | I'm sure VR will grow and have its place, it just won't be | a game changing revolution like smartphones were. | cmrdporcupine wrote: | Well, no thank you. I have enough problems getting my teens - - | especially my son -- to live the real world, to make friends, | socialize, get outside, breath fresh air, and get off touch | screens and games. | | I won't let VR goggles enter my home. I'm not the only one. | Maybe it's the future, but I'll hold it off as long as I can -- | especially if it's Facebook, with all their ethical blindness | and attention monopolizing -- that's pushing it. | ar_te wrote: | Is it though? Technology is progressing, sure. And it will find | its use, but what are the datapoints or other clues that | predicts that AR/VR will become mainstream? Not saying it will | not, but what makes it, in your opinion, "inevitable" | tootie wrote: | My contention isn't that it won't happen only that it's | irrelevant. AR/VR is just UI. It doesn't really make anything | new possible. An absolutely perfect headset will be marginally | more convenient for some modalities than a phone and much less | convenient for a lot of others. | hexomancer wrote: | My contention isn't that it won't happen only that it's | irrelevant. Smartphones are just UI. They don't really make | anything new possible. An absolutely perfect smartphone will | be marginally more convenient for some modalities than a | laptop and much less convenient for a lot of others. | tootie wrote: | Smartphones make loads of things possible that weren't | possible before. They are extremely portable, have | excellent displays for text, can connect to mobile data | networks and contain an array of sensors that benefit from | mobility. | hexomancer wrote: | You can connect usb GSM adapters to have the mobile | network on a laptop (same for all the other sensors). It | is just a lot more "convenient" to have a smartphone in | your pocket rather than carry a giant laptop with you | everywhere. Which is the point I was trying to make. Yes, | technically all thinks VR does is possible with a | smartphone but it is a lot more "convenient" to have | google maps directions overlayed on top of real world | rather than looking at it through a smartphone. | zmmmmm wrote: | It's a fascinating phenomenon ... I call it "passionate | dismissal". You can tell many of these people aren't 100% | sincere from the mere fact they showed up to make a comment. | | "This technology is boring and going nowhere ... so I read an | article all about it and then took the time to make a comment | about it ..." | | I'm ready to predict that these people are radically wrong. The | VR adoption curve is so sharp now in the 10-15 yr age bracket | that people haven't caught up to the fact it is happening yet. | I say that as someone with children in that age range and > 50% | of their friends suddenly have and use VR routinely. These kids | are all super acclimated to spending large amounts of time in | VR. These kids are "primed" to become the next wave of tech | users. | | HN folks, get ready to feel really, really old in 5 years from | now - probably how all our parents / grandparents felt when we | showed up with smart phones. | Animats wrote: | That's nice, but it's just the display part. Now you need | something to generate a high-quality display. Right now, the | minimum hardware for that is probably a Playstation 5, which can | run the Unreal Engine 5 Matrix demo. So you could do this now, | tethered, with somewhat bulky headgear. Like the Star Wars | Experience location-based entertainment system, which cost US$10K | and required a backpack. | | Carmack says all that has to be squeezed down to swim goggle size | to go mainstream. Eyeglass size to become ubiquitous, like | smartphones. Eventually, but it's some years out. | | Meanwhile, we should see low-end standalone systems (Google Glass | 3.0?) and high-end tethered systems with a base station doing the | graphics. | nrclark wrote: | Every time I see something like this, I'm struck with the idea | that Zuckerberg read Ready Player One and said "yes, that's make | THAT future." | ydnaclementine wrote: | I think you mean the book Snow Crash, which John Carmack is a | fan of | | https://twitter.com/id_aa_carmack/status/1454230235847688200... | camdat wrote: | Now we just need a comment on how this is "just another version | of Second Life" and we should have a TL;DR of every Meta + VR | thread on HN. | rightbyte wrote: | This short film comes to mind: (Uncanny Valley) | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AvyUWUKCw8 | nocarrier wrote: | It was actually Rainbow's End by Vernor Vinge that really got | Zuck excited about the possibilities of VR--he read it a few | years before he bought Oculus and talked about it a lot at the | time. | thealfreds wrote: | There was a handful of novels and light novels that explored | this concept easily a decade or more before RPO. It especially | became popular sometime in the mid 2000s I remember a bunch of | popular light novels coming out around that time. | | I'm personally imagining Zuckerberg as a .hack fanatic like | myself and my brother were back in '03. | voz_ wrote: | That book was garbage, so probably not. | tootie wrote: | https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/segments/making-sen... | | These critics give that same example and a few others trying to | prise open what Zuck and others are thinking and what it | actually means for consumers | theschwa wrote: | The interview with Norm from Adam Savage's Tested gives a lot of | good extra details: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6AOwDttBsc | dmix wrote: | The new design of the last one has a headset that you turn to | mount on your head looks nice. That's so much better than the | straps that comes with Quest 2, I hope they make that the | standard. | | The after-market Quest head kits for ~$20 make it much more | comfortable. | dukeofdoom wrote: | VR elections next. Can't wait to chose between Jack Johnson and | John Jackson. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-06-20 23:00 UTC)