[HN Gopher] X-Plane 12 Flight Model Update - Supersonic Transiti... ___________________________________________________________________ X-Plane 12 Flight Model Update - Supersonic Transition, Delta Wings and Mass Author : Alupis Score : 145 points Date : 2022-06-21 18:24 UTC (4 hours ago) (HTM) web link (developer.x-plane.com) (TXT) w3m dump (developer.x-plane.com) | upofadown wrote: | So the flow over the top of the wing breaks free and forms a huge | vortex and the drag increases tremendously? Sounds like an | aerodynamic stall to me. A bit pedantic, but that is pretty much | what a stall is. The nose might not drop and the aircraft might | be controllable, but the wing is still stalled. | geocrasher wrote: | No, that's not quite right. A stall means that the air has | separated from the wing and the wing is no longer flying. The | huge vortex created when a delta wing is at high AoA actually | causes the air to _stick_ to the top of the wing, and this | maintains control. | | I used to fly a 48" delta winged glider that had a catapult | launch. The catapult would launch it at about 120mph. I could | fly to about 300 feet in a nice vertical arc, but as _soon_ as | I yanked back on the elevons, the rather light plane would turn | sharply and slow down significantly, due to the very effect | discussed. A non delta wing would have been unable to maintain | airflow over the wing because the high AoA (20-25 degrees) | would have been far more than the 12-15 degrees that straight | or swept wing can take. | | In other words, the Delta wing kind of acts as a _giant_ vortex | generator: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_generator | caconym_ wrote: | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_lift | Nick87633 wrote: | It forms a single vortex over each wing, coefficient of lift | still increases with angle of attack. It's more like moving the | wingtip vortex near to the nose of the plane. There is a much | higher 'true stall' angle of attack where flow separates and | lift reduces. | [deleted] | ushakov wrote: | i'm surprised that Austin Meyer's passion for flying, simulation | and programming hasn't decreased one bit in the last 25+ years | anyfoo wrote: | Yeah, he's a treasure. | zippergz wrote: | I've always enjoyed xplane but one thing I find annoying is that | it seems like sometimes they emphasize visuals and cool effects | (like 3d cockpits) at the expense of making the planes fun and | practical to fly from a normal computer setup. The full sim setup | people have built with yokes, pedals, and other controls are | absolutely astonishing and it's so cool that xplane supports | that. But most of us don't and can't have that kind of thing, at | most a joystick and often just a keyboard and mouse. Over the | years it has gotten less and less enjoyable to fly xplane with | that kind of a setup because of the emphasis on making it look | cool over making it behave realistically (I don't consider having | to click a graphic of a physical switch on the screen with my | mouse more realistic than hitting a key on my keyboard). You can | fix some of it with key mappings, but it's clear that this | experience is not the priority. | | That said, I totally agree with the others that this is an | outstanding product and a bargain at its price. My griping comes | from a place of love as someone who has been using xplane for | over 10 years. | anyfoo wrote: | My setup is usually one very good joystick (VKB Gladiator II) | and _sometimes_ an additional throttle control. But the VKB | joystick has a little throttle slider on the joystick itself, | and if I don 't want to make space on my desk that's usually | enough. As long as you have a good joystick and a keyboard, you | can often reasonably fly pretty much everything from GA to | Airliners. | | Though more out of curiosity I recently got a TrackIR, which | tracks your head (usually using reflective surfaces that you | can put on a baseball cap) and adjusts the viewing angle, and I | must say _that_ is an absolute game changer. | | No longer having to either guess what's left, right, or even | behind the screen, or awkwardly using camera controls is so | much easier. And I was surprised how natural it feels: The head | tracking has to heavily amplify your head motion, since you | still want to keep your eyes on the screen after all, and to my | own astonishment there was practically zero time for my brain | to adjust. I even added some nonlinear curves and that works | well, too. | cheschire wrote: | its so crazy to me how many times i've heard people praise | the TrackIR, and I have one as well that really improved | ETS2, but the latest version is advertised as a Windows Vista | compatible product on Amazon. | | It works in all the later versions of Windows, but my point | is how OLD it is. Has nobody figured out a way to improve on | it yet? All the gopro headband hacks, monitor bezels | shrinking over the years, wireless tech including bluetooth | LE... one would think that there would be room in this world | for a TrackIR 6. | | The VR craze is past the peak thankfully, but man that | would've been the opportune moment to sell a product that | doesn't have all the weaknesses of early Oculus and Sony VR | headsets. | selectodude wrote: | A lot of people I know (myself included) use our iPhones as | the TrackIR hardware. Anything with FaceID works great. | avereveard wrote: | The latest opentrack neural net tracker is great too | we're using it in dcs with mouse for clickables and it's | a super pleasant experience | eterm wrote: | This was always the x-plane way. I had x-plane 5 and had tons | of fun flying it and because of that bought x-plane 6 and it | just wasn't as fun to fly because they put so much effort into | getting the flight models "more accurate" which actually meant | the sim was just less fun to fly for many of the more odd | planes available like the SR-71. | zippergz wrote: | Yeah, I mean, I think the "flight models are too accurate to | be fun" thing is true in some cases, but it's a different | issue than I'm complaining about. For me, I'd rather have | super accurate flight models and really great controls via | keyboard and mouse, with graphics that look like Battlezone | (1980s arcade game for the youngsters) than incredibly | detailed landscapes and cockpits that might be almost | photorealistic but give almost no thought to what it's like | to use on a normal computer without a full dedicated setup. | Alupis wrote: | I think this might be because X-Plane isn't the type of | "game" many folks are looking for in a flight sim. | | X-Plane prioritizes correctness and details above all else | - whereas something like Microsoft Flight Simulator | prioritizes eye candy and fun. | | Want to fly to Area 51, attempt to land a 747 on an | aircraft carrier, fly above the pyramids of Egypt, fly | _between_ buildings and perform aerobatics - choose MS | Flight Simulator. | | Want to practice patterns, procedures, participate in a | live online ATC simulated community, familiarize yourself | with new territory or airstrips, learn a new aircraft - | choose X-Plane. | | That's not to say you can't use X-Plane for fun, it just | means doing things like aerobatics might not come easy due | to the focus on realism. | | Both are excellent simulators in their own right - just | need to find the one you prefer. I personally fly X-Plane | 11, Microsoft Flight Simulator and Prepar3D (based off | older MS Flight Simulator codebase). Each has pros and | cons. | hellcow wrote: | X-Plane is a flight simulator. Its purpose first and foremost | seems to be to create a real sensation of flying. | | When flying a plane in real life, you don't do it with a | keyboard. It seems odd to build a simulator prioritizing that | unrealistic use-case. | | A quality HOTAS setup can be had for under $400 which gets you | much closer to the real-world experience that X-Plane is trying | to create. | potatolicious wrote: | Also worth adding that a reasonably complex modern aircraft | _cannot_ be fully controlled by the keyboard alone. We 're | well past just simple throttle up/down, flaps up/down, gear | up/down, etc. | | How does one interact with the MCDU in an Airbus with the | keyboard and joystick? How does one set the A/P altitude and | airspeed? Set the radio frequency? What's the keystroke combo | to manage the EFB? What keys are bound to "APU bleed on"? The | sheer amount of functionality in a modern cockpit defies | keyboard control - both because you very rapidly run out of | available keybinds, and also that glass cockpits require | input modalities that are fundamentally at odds with the | keyboard. | | I'd hazard to say the "3D cockpit + mouse interaction" mode | is the only practical way of flying a modern complex | aircraft, short of some type of VR/hard cockpit setup. | jupp0r wrote: | The cockpit interface could be implemented as a command | line user interface. Having lots of buttons with text | labels is obviously better in emergency situations. | ses1984 wrote: | What about some kind of "spotlight" search? | | Imagine you press a keyboard chord to pull up a virtual | search bar, then type "APU bleed on" and a virtual hand | reaches out and does the action. | lmm wrote: | > X-Plane is a flight simulator. Its purpose first and | foremost seems to be to create a real sensation of flying. | | > When flying a plane in real life, you don't do it with a | keyboard. It seems odd to build a simulator prioritizing that | unrealistic use-case. | | How much difference does that make to the sensation though? | As long as it's a motion that's simple enough to become | muscle memory (which having to look around with a mouse and | click on the right thing onscreen isn't), I don't think the | mechanics of how you're physically doing the input makes any | difference. | azalemeth wrote: | It makes a big difference. The FAA talk about "flow | patterns" for correct activities in certain phases of | flight; training to recover from some non-normal situations | is quite literally learning a specific muscle memory, as | well as decision making (albeit quite simple decision | making). | | Something that is quite hard to convey is how you actually | _do_ get into an "OODA loop" in an aircraft | (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop) - observe, | "orient", decide and act. For example, if flying VFR a lot | of the time is spent looking out the window and _actively | checking_ that there is "nothing there". You look at the | instruments, but you don't _stare_ at them. A large part of | flight training is pattern recognition, muscle memory, and | fine motor skills. | | I spent a lot of time gliding while writing up my doctoral | thesis (mostly as it's hard to panic about not working when | you're too busy not dying) and found it very helpful for | other situations in everyday life. Part of that is knowing, | exactly, without looking, where everything is. For that | reason, aircraft have physically differently shaped handles | for the important knobs so that they are unlikely to be | confused. On the glider I have most hours in, the lever on | the left that is blue, with a moulded grip is the speed | brake. The tow / winch release lever is a yellow ball. In | many prop aircraft, the throttle, mixture and prop pitch | knobs are again given different shapes (round, star and | "undulating" respectively). Knowing where to move your | hands to is actually _a really important skill_ and the | keen-beans that X-plane sells to likely have set-ups where | not only are these things in roughly the right place, but | the distance between them and the chair is measured. Why? | Well, if you 're learning to fly an aircraft that burns | ~$150 per hour (or more), and you can practice a ton of | circuits in X-plane, it is a hell of a lot cheaper to try | to get good at it outside of the aircraft first. | quest88 wrote: | I'm not sure what you're asking. I did lots of my | instrument training in an xplane simulator. Physically | pushing buttons helped me create a flow that then felt | natural when flying in the plane and in clouds for the | first time. | rad_gruchalski wrote: | > A quality HOTAS setup can be had for under $400... | | Can you recommend anything? | hellcow wrote: | As a stick, VKB Guardian NXT Evo Premium, and either a 2nd | one of those for HOSAS or a Thrustmaster TWCS throttle with | Nyogel 767a applied to prevent sticking on the rails. | | The stick is $200 including a substantial shipping fee from | China. The TWCS comes bundled with a (worse) stick at $145, | and you can resell the bundled stick for $70 new bringing | the throttle cost down to ~$75. Nyogel is ~$13 on Amazon. | rad_gruchalski wrote: | Thanks, awesome! | jamesy0ung wrote: | > As a stick, VKB Guardian NXT Evo Premium, and either a | 2nd one of those for HOSAS or a Thrustmaster TWCS | throttle with Nyogel 767a applied to prevent sticking on | the rails. | | Don't get anything less than a VKB Gladiator. You'll buy | a Extreme 3D Pro and then find yourself wanting a VKB | later. | zippergz wrote: | What percentage of x-plane users do you think ACTUALLY use it | for learning to fly an airplane (in the sense that they do or | will go fly that actual plane IRL)? I'd bet a lot of money | that it's less than 5%. They are optimizing for an | aspirational but tiny use case. | ziddoap wrote: | > _What percentage of x-plane users do you think ACTUALLY | use it for learning to fly an airplane_ | | What does it matter? I play city simulation games, and want | them to be realistic, because I find the realism fun. Not | because I plan on building my own city. | | Wanting a realistic flight simulator that gives the real | sensation of flying does not mean you must then become a | pilot. | 0xffff2 wrote: | And unlike any city sim game I'm aware of, X-Plane is | actually used as a research tool in real aerospace | engineering applications. | masklinn wrote: | You know that if you want a more arcade oriented flight sim | there's flight simulator right? | | That's not Laminar's goal, and that's not the market | they're in. You can see that in the post, it's by the | founder of Laminar. It's pages upon pages of gushing over | flight modelling. | throwaway675309 wrote: | I feel like the use case of people who want extremely | accurate flight modeling and physics + want to control | their plane with a QWERTY keyboard is 0%. | waynecochran wrote: | It would be funny to peak into a cockpit and see a pilot | w a QWERTY keyboard on his lap. | selectodude wrote: | Well, pop into the cockpit of the A380 or the A350 and | you'll see that exact situation. | | https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUdKMKeXUAAjrFO?format=jpg&na | me=... | TimTheTinker wrote: | I'm in that "0%", for what it's worth. | | I want the leisure time my kids and I spend on X-Plane to | count towards my/their overall ability to fly a small | plane someday (a lifelong dream), but (a) I don't have | room for flight gear -- there's barely space for my tiny | home office desk, and (b) I can't even justify spending | $100 right now for a flight yoke amid other financial | obligations (it was a splurge to spend $60 for X-Plane | 11). | | Honestly, I probably would have bought Microsoft's 2020 | FS instead if it ran on macOS. | Alupis wrote: | You don't need to invest in all that kit if you don't | want too - I have most of the pretty typical "kit" for a | flight simmer, yet I'm often too lazy to haul it all out | and set it up (I don't leave it out in between "sessions" | since I work from that computer too). | | So, very often I wind up flying with just my cheap | Logitech joystick, but even an XBox controller would be a | huge step up from mouse/keyboard only. | | Having programmable buttons available at your fingertips | without having to take your eyes off screen and look for | a button really adds to the immersion in my opinion. | quest88 wrote: | My opinion is that people who start in simulator have a | hard time adjusting to flying visually (the | fundamentals). The sim forces you to look at your | instruments which is a bad habit to break. | numpad0 wrote: | When I play Assetto Corsa I don't necessarily seeking to | simulate operating dipsticks and clearing TPMS warnings. | But I don't want to be able to go through corners without | braking either. | throckmortra wrote: | Anecdotally: a lot! I find it very useful for practicing | IFR procedures and approaches. You can connect it to an | external comm service like Vatsim and a real human will | even give you vectors and clearances! (They, too, are using | it for realistic practice for a job with air traffic | control) | TylerE wrote: | Hardly aspirational. | | They sell a (much more expensive) version that is FAA- | certified for training. | masklinn wrote: | > They sell a (much more expensive) version that is FAA- | certified for training. | | It's not even _that_ much more expensive, the Pro edition | is 750. | | Though unless you also have real sim hardware it's a | completely useless expense as aside from FAA cert | validators the features are mostly for multi-projector | systems (image warping, edge blending). | MaxBarraclough wrote: | > sometimes they emphasize visuals and cool effects (like 3d | cockpits) at the expense of making the planes fun and practical | to fly from a normal computer setup | | They don't really emphasize visuals. Even with X-Plane 12, the | graphics will still be far behind those of Microsoft Flight | Simulator. Thankfully they will be overhauling the graphics for | trees, which currently look like something from the 90's. [0] | | > it has gotten less and less enjoyable to fly xplane with that | kind of a setup because of the emphasis on making it look cool | over making it behave realistically | | As others have said, you might be better served by Microsoft | Flight Simulator. It prioritises approachability far more than | X-Plane does, and isn't going for the professional/approved | flight simulation market. | | > (I don't consider having to click a graphic of a physical | switch on the screen with my mouse more realistic than hitting | a key on my keyboard). You can fix some of it with key | mappings, but it's clear that this experience is not the | priority. | | I'd be very surprised if it weren't possible to map the button | to a key, provided you have enough keys on your keyboard that | aren't already bound. | | [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxLqU-NJhbE | Alupis wrote: | > I'd be very surprised if it weren't possible to map the | button to a key, provided you have enough keys on your | keyboard that aren't already bound. | | Everything can be bound to a key or keys. | | The reason we often click/flip switches with the mouse in a | virtual cockpit is partly the fun, but also it familiarizes | you with the location of things in different cockpits. It | also increases work load, especially during critical phases | of flight such as landing/take off, making a slightly more | realistic feeling simulation. | | Just pressing a button on the keyboard doesn't achieve that, | even if it results in the same thing happening to the model. | ceejayoz wrote: | I hope someone gives the author a ride on an F-4 to try it out in | real life. | bsder wrote: | The F-4 Phantom: Proof that pigs _can_ fly if you strap big | enough engines to their ass. | tablespoon wrote: | > First off, thanks to this intensive, minimum-sleep, once-in-a- | lifetime week, we now have an F-4 flight model that is accurate | enough to be used for actual F-4 flight instruction... | | Given the F-4 is obsolete, and it looks like it's been retired by | everyone except Iran and South Korea, I wonder how practical it | would have been to get an actually flight simulator for one, and | reverse engineer the flight model from its software. | | It probably would be super-difficult computer history project, | but probably pretty interesting. Might not even be worth it | either, since given the technology of the time it wouldn't | surprise me if the simulation actually wasn't as accurate as | desired here. | | Interesting links found while writing this comment: | | https://www.digitalcheck.com/f-4-phantom-flight-simulator/ (The | F-4 Phantom: Building a Flight Simulator That Ran on Film) | | https://www.flightmuseum.com/explore/link-f-4-simulator/ (Link | F-4D "Phantom II" Simulator) | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMc1qqxWCeM ("a partial teardown | of a CPK91/A24G Flight Data Computer from AireSearch - an analog | electromechanical computer from the late 1960s, use to control | the inner workings of the F4.") | bvanderveen wrote: | I love that Austen Meyer is still blogging about a week of all- | nighters on his pet project almost 30 years later, and the level | of palpable stoke is off the charts. A gem! | rideontime wrote: | Austin Meyer's blog posts are always so entertaining. | mwambua wrote: | Yeah, I'd love to have the sort of enthusiasm that he has for | his work! | wbobeirne wrote: | Just getting into the sim world with MSFS but looking to pick up | X-Plane as well. I see this is about X-Plane 12, but it's not for | sale yet. Anyone know how their release schedule works? Are there | upgrade paths if I buy X-Plane 11 now? | GekkePrutser wrote: | Sounds good, the extensive use of caps is a bit annoying though | :P | s3cur3 wrote: | It's... kind of his1 thing. :) For instance: | https://austinmeyer.com/why-does-god-hate-lancairs/ | | 1 Austin Meyer, creator of X-Plane | keyle wrote: | On the other hand I love his writing. The passion for his topic | and knowledge really oozes out of his words. AMAZING ;) | edrxty wrote: | I feel like we're reliving the golden age of flight sims again. | There are a lot of good options available now including X-Plane, | Microsoft Flight Simulator, DCS World, VTOL-VR, Tiny Combat | Arena, etc. | Koshkin wrote: | I find DCS to be the best of the bunch, and MSFS too gimmicky | to my taste. | | For those who want to simply have fun flying (in something of a | combat setting) there is also Far Cry 5 or 6 - two beautiful | games I can't recommend enough. | selectodude wrote: | The study-level aircraft have started coming to MSFS in | droves. It's no longer a gimmick. | Alupis wrote: | > The study-level aircraft have started coming to MSFS in | droves. It's no longer a gimmick. | | Yes, some extremely detailed aircraft have been released, | but the underlying simulation is still lacking realism in | some key areas. Many aircraft just "feel wrong" when flown. | But it's a ton of fun, and the nice visuals really make it | a joy to fly places. I find I spend a lot of time in MSFS | these days, even though I still prefer X-Plane for the | overall realism. | Stevvo wrote: | 3rd party developers can only do so much. 'Study level' | just isn't possible in MSFS. For example, yoke position is | not linked to control surface position. Move the yoke full | deflection and you only might only see the control surface | move 5% if you are at a high speed. If you model an | aircraft in the sim accurately without these geared control | surfaces then it will pull 20G turns at 200Kts. | | MSFS gets the most basic parts of the flight model and | controls fundamentally wrong. | | (source: I have made multiple payware aircraft for both | X-Plane and MSFS) | jamesy0ung wrote: | > I find DCS to be the best of the bunch, and MSFS too | gimmicky to my taste. | | 100% agree, I enjoy the systems simulation in X-Plane, but I | also want a DCS style native multiplayer so I can do | formation | mhh__ wrote: | I would say that we are in a golden age of simracing games too, | and we practically are, but one company that isn't doing so | well (Motorsport games) owns a lot of them and could go under. | otikik wrote: | I am totally not into this kind of thing, but I can appreciate | and admire passion when I see it. Well done on working on what | you love, OP. | zxspectrum1982 wrote: | $59.99??? Really? How can X-Plane be that cheap? | racingmars wrote: | Hopefully they also sell a lot of the $820 professional use | licenses, for flight training, commercial use, etc. | tonyarkles wrote: | I do love the business model... delete some features and | charge >10x for the privilege :). | | More to the point, though, I get the impression that they run | a pretty lean team and do a decent amount of volume. They | definitely got my $60, and if going from 11 to 12 is a paid | upgrade, they'll get my $60 again! | hindsightbias wrote: | He doesn't mention fuselage lift. That's a thing in the F-4. I | think 20%+ in some old aero reference book I had. | avereveard wrote: | https://developer.x-plane.com/2018/05/better-fuselages-throu... | his take on fuselage | masklinn wrote: | I'd assume fuselage lift was already part of the model because | of previous aircrafts. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-06-21 23:00 UTC)