[HN Gopher] Unexpected solar weather is accelerating satellites'... ___________________________________________________________________ Unexpected solar weather is accelerating satellites' orbital decay Author : lelf Score : 84 points Date : 2022-06-23 16:36 UTC (6 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.space.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.space.com) | rcardo11 wrote: | I'm wondering if this solar cycle can be a reason for the recent | wild summer temperatures? Anyone here can confirm? | daltont wrote: | Hyperbolic headlines plus the fact the people tend to not read | anything except the headline (a form Lem's law IMO) is part of | the disinformation problem. | FunnyBadger wrote: | This is simply part of the solar cycle. And it's a standard part | of satellite planning when it comes to operational quality and | reliability to account for solar cycle radiation effects. | | This is an ignorant fear article and/or an article written by | someone who knows NOTHING about space launch and design. | | (I used to be a military rocket scientist specializing in | radiation effects on space electronics many moons ago). | kmbfjr wrote: | >By coincidence (or beginner's luck), the onset of the new | space revolution came during that sleepy solar cycle. | | Apparently not simply part of the solar cycle when new types of | spacecraft (lacking typical propulsion systems) haven't been in | orbit during a high activity solar peak. | | There are some points that are alarmist. "Plummet" isn't | something that seems to happen. | KennyBlanken wrote: | The article _at length_ describes how this solar cycle is | _different from prior cycles and forecasts_. | | > This drag also helps clean up the near-Earth environment from | space junk. Scientists know that the intensity of this drag | depends on solar activity -- the amount of solar wind spewed by | the sun, which varies depending on the 11-year solar cycle. The | last cycle, which officially ended in December 2019, was rather | sleepy, with a below-average number of monthly sunspots and a | prolonged minimum of barely any activity. But since last fall, | the star has been waking up, spewing more and more solar wind | and generating sunspots, solar flares and coronal mass | ejections at a growing rate. And the Earth's upper atmosphere | has felt the effects. | | > In late 2021, operators of the European Space Agency's (ESA) | Swarm constellation noticed something worrying: The satellites, | which measure the magnetic field around Earth, started sinking | toward the atmosphere at an unusually fast rate -- up to 10 | times faster than before. | | > By coincidence (or beginner's luck), the onset of the new | space revolution came during that sleepy solar cycle. These new | operators are now facing their first solar maximum. But not | only that. The sun's activity in the past year turned out to be | much more intense than solar weather forecasters predicted, | with more sunspots, more coronal mass ejections and more solar | wind hitting our planet. | | > "The solar activity is a lot higher than the official | forecast suggested," Hugh Lewis, a professor of engineering and | physical sciences at the University of Southampton in the U.K. | who studies the behavior of satellites in low Earth orbit, told | Space.com. "In fact, the current activity is already quite | close to the peak level that was forecasted for this solar | cycle, and we are still two to three years away from the solar | maximum." | | > Stromme confirmed those observations. "The solar cycle 25 | that we are entering now is currently increasing very steeply," | she said. "We do not know if this means that it will be a very | tough solar cycle. It could slow down, and it could become a | very weak solar cycle. But right now, it's increasing fast." | walrus01 wrote: | I concur with this, and also, one possible solution to this | from a technical perspective is to increase the amount of fuel | carried for ion/hall effect and similar thrusters (high | specific impulse, low thrust) for periodic orbit raising | maneuvers to extend lifetime. | | _Theoretically_ , as $ per kg launch costs come down with | things like reusable falcon 9, it makes it much less costly to | equip medium sized LEO satellite with more fuel than it might | have costed 10 or 15 years ago. | | Or if you have something that needs to orbit really low and | minimize drag/maximize lifespan, you could design it to be | particularly aerodynamic and shaped like this: | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_Field_and_Steady-State... | zackees wrote: | So this effect is caused by more solar wind slamming into the | atmosphere at 100's of km/hr and is so powerful that it's CAUSING | THE ATMOSPHERE TO HEAT UP AND EXPAND? | | Does the global warming models take this into effect? This seems | like an unfathomable amount of energy. | jhgb wrote: | It's causing _the uppermost layers of atmosphere_ to expand. | That 's less than an unfathomable amount of energy because the | uppermost layers of atmosphere are extremely rarefied, to the | extent they don't even behave like gases. | mturmon wrote: | Solar irradiance variations amount to a bit less than 0.1% over | the solar cycle. It used to be thought solar-cycle variations | (the 11-year period) could be a significant contributor to | climate change. | | This turned out not to be the case...that was pretty much known | by the early 2000s. | | Other irradiance variations, due to orbital variations called | Milankovich cycles, happening in the 10,000's of year range, do | appear to influence climate. Of course, the extremes we're | seeing now are not on the 10,000-year time scale. | kgc wrote: | I wish we could go back to the days of non-clickbait headlines. | dragontamer wrote: | When exactly did those days exist? | | * "Destruction of the Warship Maine was the work of an Enemy. | $50,000 Reward~" https://sophia.smith.edu/fys169-f19/wp- | content/uploads/sites... | | * There's also the fake propaganda Ben Franklin pushed so that | the 1776 revolution would have the moral high ground. (Ben | Franklin fabricated the "Scalping" of USA's early citizens to | fake a war-crime, to make the British look more monstrous). | https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Franklin/01-37-02-01... | | I'm not sure if there ever was non-clickbait headlines. In | fact, the further back in history you go, the more clickbait, | and even fully fake, information seems to exist. | not2b wrote: | Too many HN threads just seem to be people arguing about the | appropriateness of the title. The article addresses a significant | and interesting issue that's going to have major negative effects | on business models, as well as some positive effect on space | junk. I think they did a decent job, at least for an article | intended for the general public, and I'm glad I read it. And yes, | the word "plummet" is an exaggeration. But that isn't a big deal. | jandrese wrote: | Writing a good title is as hard as naming things in code. It's | a much harder problem than it seems like it should be, with | mutually exclusive interests often creating impossible | situations. | | But also, people just kind of suck at it. | dang wrote: | With media publications, at least, it's more that they have | specialists dedicated to slathering bait on the titles. | That's their job and they're perfectly good at it--they just | don't produce what people _here_ would call a good title. | This is an example of what Eric Evans called a "bounded | context". The way I look at it, it's their job to sex up the | headlines and our job (community as well as moderators!) to | deflate them again. "Not in this context." | | https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que. | .. | | (I suppose this is what you meant by "mutually exclusive | interests".) | birdyrooster wrote: | Bike shedding at work | brazzledazzle wrote: | I like to take a break from bike shedding at work with some | bike shedding on HN. Has a different flavor. | kzrdude wrote: | I think HN's current title policy is exactly right, for this | reason: submissions need "neutral" titles so that we can | discuss the content instead. | | In this case, the discussion of the word plummet is halfway | topical: it's about understanding the severity and going more | into detail of what's actually happening, putting it in | context. The equivalent discussion would happen regardless of | word choice. | colechristensen wrote: | And most aerospace threads are a shitshow, people who have no | idea what they are talking about getting uppity about words | which are basically appropriate in this circumstance. Going | from 2 km/year to 20 km/year orbit decay is indeed quite | significant and could cause a satellite to be lost many years | early, the last stage of which is burning up in the atmosphere | which is quite plummetous. | andrewflnr wrote: | Misleading headlines are a constant act of sabotage on our | ability to prioritize our information intake. I don't know if | it _really_ needs to be discussed every single time, but it is | important enough to be recognized and discussed, and until we | decide to get serious about rebelling or whatever, well, who 's | going to decide where the exact appropriate place is to discuss | it? So basically as long as it keeps hurting, were going to | keep talking about it whenever and wherever it hurts. | [deleted] | dang wrote: | Never underestimate the passion users feel about titles: | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20429573 | corrral wrote: | > Too many HN threads just seem to be people arguing about the | appropriateness of the title | | Too many writers--including of headlines--are so sloppy with | language that it's misleading, or even incorrect. | | Perhaps when GPT-4 or whatever takes over those jobs, it will | be better at it. Provided we don't train it on anything written | after 2000 or so, when all headlines became tabloid headlines | and margins got tight enough that no-one had time for careful | editing anymore. | topspin wrote: | "But that isn't a big deal." | | It's clickbait. I appreciate people pointing out clickbait. I | think a lot of others do as well; it's why they read the | comments on an article before the look at the article. | | Had the story been titled "Solar Weather Causes Unexpected | Satellite Orbit Decay" or some other non-clickbait thing I'd | have read it without looking at comments first. I'm actually | interested in solar weather due to its impact on radio. Too bad | publishers don't understand that clickbait titles are a serious | turn off. Apparently everything must be TMZ. | not2b wrote: | I don't appreciate it when the whole comment section of a | substantive article is complaints about the headline. Maybe | we should just have a way for people to privately message the | moderators proposing a headline change to correct a | misleading headine, and do that instead. Then the comment | section could talk about the article instead of the headline. | anigbrowl wrote: | This can bel alleviated by choosing better sources or relaxing | the objections to editing titles. I agree that there are lots | of useful and informative stories with shitty headlines. I | personally don't mind title edits as long as they aim to be | less rather than more sensational, and OP briefly notes the | reason for the change. | [deleted] | RosanaAnaDana wrote: | HN: come for the pedentry, stay for the pedentry on pedentry. | jtbayly wrote: | It's spelled "pedantry." :) | a9h74j wrote: | An MP-complete post is one in which the meta-pedantry | completes in polynominal time. | dang wrote: | That has to have been a trap. | stjohnswarts wrote: | I mean wouldn't they account for this and add thrusters and fuel | to put it back where they want it? | vsllc wrote: | I am thinking about a commercial data product to address the | situational awareness need here. It feels daunting though, | because customers would be the likes of SpaceX and other | intimidating entities. If anyone has thoughts, or is interested, | please send me an email. (Contact info in profile!) Thanks. | visviva wrote: | Commercial SSA is getting to be a busy... space. Have you seen | what others are doing in that area? How does your idea differ? | colechristensen wrote: | With NASA and related space weather data products and internal | tracking of satellites being a core competence of companies | like SpaceX, I don't necessarily see where a commercial data | product would fit or provide value. Unless you're actually | going to launch orbital assets and have some significant | scientific work, I'm just not sure. | | Some competition: http://acswa.us/about/members.html | Treblemaker wrote: | (December 19, 2020) "The consensus view of an international panel | of 12 scientists calls for the new cycle, Solar Cycle 25, to be | small to average, much like its predecessor, Solar Cycle 24. | | But a prominent astrophysicist at the National Center for | Atmospheric Research, Scott McIntosh, foresees the sun going | gangbusters. The cycle is already off to a fast start, coinciding | with the recent publication of McIntosh's paper in Solar Physics. | The study, with contributions from several of his colleagues, | forecasts the nascent sunspot cycle to become one of the | strongest ever recorded." | | [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2020/12/19/solar- | cycl... | Treblemaker wrote: | Update on the prediction: | | (Feb. 26, 2022) ""We have finalized our forecast of SC25's | amplitude," says McIntosh. "It will be just above the | historical average with a monthly smoothed sunspot number of | 190 +- 20." | | ""Above average" may not sound exciting, but this is in fact a | sharp departure from NOAA's official forecast of a weak solar | cycle" | | [0] https://spaceweatherarchive.com/2022/02/25/the- | termination-e... | jaywalk wrote: | Is the word "plummet" really appropriate here? They're talking | about falling at a rate of 0.001mph, which is much faster than | expected but hardly a "plummet." | jcims wrote: | I don't really pay attention that closely, but space.com is a | common theme when i see hacky stories about space/astronomy. | martinky24 wrote: | Pop-sci articles... Always disappointing | nomel wrote: | But dang, they sure made me fall in love with science, as a | kid. | dylan604 wrote: | Was this one disappointing? Maybe if you're going by the | title alone, which granted was the original question. | However, it was a decent enough explanation for the target | audience of the site. | colechristensen wrote: | Yes, orbit decay having gone up by a factor of ~10 is indeed | plummeting. | | You park things in low earth orbit so that they don't stay up | forever and indeed come down in reasonably small human-scale | timeframes. Usually on the time scale of decades, sometimes | more, sometimes less. | | If you designed a satellite to stay up for 10 years, it'll | suddenly only be able to stay up a year, that's the scale of | these things. | | Again it's an exponential thing, a seemingly small scale change | in the slow part makes the fast part come quite a lot sooner. | BitwiseFool wrote: | I think the primary objection is that to the vast majority of | people 'plummet' implies the satellite is suddenly and | violently falling from the sky - it's the kind of word people | would describe an airplane crash with. | | However unless the author happens to know a lot about orbital | mechanics (or they've played Kerbal Space Program) they | probably just picked an expressive word for the sake of a | compelling article rather than something that would give a | better picture to the layperson. | orbital-decay wrote: | Sidenote: KSP is the worst way to build intuition in this | particular case as it doesn't have any drag model in orbit, | or even n-body simulation, so no orbital decay is possible | there. Playing around with NASA's GMAT [0] or similar more | comprehensive software is much more helpful to understand | real-world orbital mechanics. | | [0] https://sourceforge.net/projects/gmat/ | ericbarrett wrote: | There is a high-quality mod which adds n-body gravity: | https://github.com/mockingbirdnest/Principia | | It will also add orbital perturbations/frozen orbits if | you use Real Solar System: https://github.com/mockingbird | nest/Principia/blob/master/ast... | | That said, to my knowledge there isn't yet a mod that | adds high-altitude drag. | colechristensen wrote: | It's a dumb objection. A mission manager was quoted using | the word "diving". | | It isn't the journalist but the nitpicking commentors who | are clueless. The headline accurately enough conveys what | is happening and the article articulates it well. Orbital | mechanics isn't intuitive enough for there to be perfect | fit words given human experience, human timescales, | "plummet" is fine. | nomel wrote: | The definition of the word, that everyone is probably | familiar with, strongly disagrees: https://www.merriam- | webster.com/dictionary/plummet Plummet: | 1. to fall perpendicularly 2. to drop | sharply and abruptly | | Or, Google's scraped definition from Oxford dictionary: | fall or drop straight down at high speed. | | If you google "satellite plummeting", you'll notice that | almost all of the results also include "fireball", | "burning up" and/or "reentry". | corrral wrote: | Plummet implies a straight-line dead fall, or close to | it. It derives from lead weights (hence the similarity to | "plumber") attached to a line, used for sounding depth of | water or for marking a straight vertical line. The | "verbing" of that noun and its figurative use to describe | falling appear to be quite recent developments--Webster's | 1913 only lists a noun. I'd say it's the wrong word for | this case, but then I'm an opponent of using slightly- | similar words interchangeably, such that we effectively | have fewer words to work with. However, I'm losing that | fight anyway, so who cares I guess. | | [EDIT] On reflection, this is even goofier than I thought | at first, since the choice of lead for those applications | is precisely because it's little affected by wind, and | even fares better than most things against moving water, | while this is entirely about something falling faster | _because of_ its interaction with air. | BitwiseFool wrote: | I don't see why it is a dumb objection. Word choice is | important, especially for journalists trying to convey | information to the general public and even more so when | it comes to headlines - as the majority of people won't | read the article to understand the nuance. | | I genuinely think a decent number of people are going to | envision a situation where satellites suddenly plunging | out of orbit like they would in some big budget disaster | movie. You are well within your right to tell them they | are thinking of the word "plummeting" incorrectly but you | are fighting an uphill battle. Technical and dictionary | correctness has its place but to convey information | properly people must consider the vernacular. | teawrecks wrote: | > I don't see why it is a dumb objection | | Because we're now 5+ comments deep arguing semantics. You | know the facts, I know the facts, we all know the facts, | what do we disagree on? | colechristensen wrote: | It's dumb because it is based on the objector imagining | what an uninformed reader would imagine and thinking that | anything unlike mighty Thor smiting satellites out of the | sky with lightning bolts would make the word "plummet" | inappropriate. | | Satellites are falling relatively very fast compared to | usual and some of them have or soon will burn up in | atmosphere as a result, it's a headline, not a half | sentence expected to grant a degree in astrodynamics. | BitwiseFool wrote: | Likewise, why would you imagine that an uninformed reader | would see the word "plummet" and understand that none of | these satellites are in immediate danger of re-entry, | that they will in-fact continue to stay aloft for several | more months, and that in this context plummet means an | orbit decaying an order of magnitude faster than | expected? | | You are correct, one of the meanings of plummet is a | rapid descent. These satellites are rapidly descending. | You are correct. | | Again, though, word choice matters. Can you see where | other commenters and I are coming from? | cardiffspaceman wrote: | Remember that Star Trek movie trailer wherein the | Enterprise (or a similar) spacecraft seemed to drop like | the string had been cut? That's what I picture with | "plummet". | [deleted] | GekkePrutser wrote: | But this space 'weather' won't last forever right? Won't it | go back to the old decay rate after this? | | So if it lasts a week, the lifetime will be reduced by 10 | weeks? Still a lot but something you can cope with. | colechristensen wrote: | There are events measured in minutes, hours, and years (or | decades). | | We're ramping up to a maximum which should happen in a few | years but activity has been above predictions. We don't | understand the Sun dynamics all that well, but what's | happening now is a little weird beyond expectations and | might be something that continues for years. | dylan604 wrote: | Just finished reading the article with the exact same question | in mind. | | Plummet gets the clicks though, so to the website, it is | appropriate. | | It could also be argued it's a sense of perspective. Something | that falls at the rate of 2km per year suddenly in a matter of | months starts to fall at a rate of 20km per year could seem | like plummeting when you're the one tasked with keeping it | alive or the person that paid for it to be there for 10 years | to see it suddenly shortened to 2 years. It's a stretch, but we | all love hyperbole | uranium wrote: | This. To space folks, that _is_ plummeting. It 's enough of a | difference, and a surprise, to have a significant effect on | business models. | Aachen wrote: | It's a significant difference that has a real impact on the | satellites. But we also don't say that airplanes plummet | when landing or elevators when going down. | | To me at least, plummet signals it's a matter of seconds | or, perhaps from great altitude, minutes until it hits the | bottom. So to me, and that's knowing a thing or two about | space, this title is just clickbait and not a good | description of the phenomenon observed even for a techy | public like HN. | [deleted] | dylan604 wrote: | We absolutely refer to planes as plummeting, when the | situation warrants. | | This article wasn't written for HN. It was written for | the general audience that peruses Space.com. Because | someone found it interesting and posted to HN is pretty | much the only reason it is on HN. Space.com didn't submit | it in hopes of gaining attention by a hypercritical | audience. | | Yes, I agree it is click bait. I'm just playing devil's | advocate to some of your weaker arguments. | perihelions wrote: | They also say Starlink fully lost 40 satellites to solar | weather (were decelerated rapidly enough to burn up in the | atmosphere, before their orbits could be rescued). There's a | range of outcomes. | | Thread about that: | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30267587 (488 comments) | mirashii wrote: | For those who don't click through to the other thread, I'd | say that solar weather contributed, but the root cause was | more an overzealous safe mode induced by the operations team | that didn't leave time to recover. A better operations plan | would've shortened the safe mode duration to ensure that they | attempted to raise their orbit even if it meant deploying | during the solar event. Letting safe mode destroy the | satellite to mitigate a probabilistic risk is just bad | planning. Take the chance and deploy anyways and hope you get | lucky. | daniel-cussen wrote: | Come on, 40 satellites is not all that much for Spacex. | adolph wrote: | > Take the chance and deploy anyways and hope you get | lucky. | | If they got unlucky they might have spiked a space in which | another satellite could have orbited (no pun intended). | dang wrote: | Alright you guys, they are no longer plummeting in the title | above. Let's talk about the interesting bits now! | cperciva wrote: | I would have said "... is accelerating satellites' orbital | decay". | dang wrote: | Ok, it's up there now. Thanks! | CodeWriter23 wrote: | Well at that rate, it will crash into the Earth in...never | dr_orpheus wrote: | But it will though. The lowest satellites are at an altitude | of 460 km above the Earth. And the decay of the satellite in | to the Earth is exponential [0] so the unexpected drop is a | significant impact on the lifetime of the spacecraft. You can | see from the plot in that Orbital Decay that there is an | altitude that it starts dropping very rapidly. So they may | have expected it de-orbit in approximately 10 years, but now | the de-orbit could be something like 5 years. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_decay#/media/File:Alti. | .. | [deleted] | Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: | I'm surprised they didn't go all out and call 'solar weather' | 'extreme nuclear explosion activity on the sun'. I'm mean, if | its for the clicks, why not. | mc32 wrote: | Yeah, plummet is like straight down till it hits something. | Given it's root is in "plumbum" it's not surprising and yes, | this is used incorrectly. Not being prescriptive, but this | usage is pretty misleading. | pempem wrote: | Well now that we've determined that plummet maybe isn't the | right word to use, shall we discuss the fact that satellites | are unexpectedly falling from the sky in yet another climate | change that we had not predicted? | mc32 wrote: | While solar phenomena influences climate, this aspect is | not human induced. We have put artificial satellites up | there, in earth orbit, but they are not causing solar | eruptions or solar flares. We don't understand solar | "climate" enough to say that it's changing (cycle | frequency, amplitude, etc). | bityard wrote: | > We don't understand solar "climate" enough to say that | it's changing (cycle frequency, amplitude, etc). | | We certainly do know a fair amount about the sun's | "climate": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cycle | | The sun has an 11-year solar cycle where each cycle has a | period of low and high sunspot activity and currently we | are just starting Cycle 25 with a corresponding uptick of | solar flare activity. | jtbayly wrote: | If only we hadn't been burning fossil fuels, the sun | wouldn't be punishing us like this! | pempem wrote: | Climate of the sun. ugh. climate of the sun obviously. | zoomablemind wrote: | > ...shall we discuss the fact that satellites are | unexpectedly falling from the sky | | Well, the falling is rather expected, it's just the rate of | it is faster, than we hoped for. | | Maybe in a couple of years, once at max, the rate will | start decreasing, but for some cubesats this may be | terminal by then. | anigbrowl wrote: | I think this is widely predicted actually | furyofantares wrote: | That's what's happening, right? It's just that space is | curved by the earth | mc32 wrote: | A meteor/meteorite plunges to earth. Something that lowers | its altitude so very slightly is not "plummet". Skylab yes | plummeted back to earth. | izzydata wrote: | Wow, so you are telling me satellites are falling to earth and | burning up in the atmosphere? No? Oh.. ok. | kzrdude wrote: | No? Yes. They always do this. The only question is how fast. | They'll fall and burn eventually. | [deleted] | zoomablemind wrote: | There were some space tech startups planning to provide a kind of | tug-service to satellites on the low orbit. Not sure if any | viability for this is on the near-future horizon. | | Space tugs as a service: https://spacenews.com/space-tugs-as-a- | service-in-orbit-servi... | mturmon wrote: | As people are pointing out, the rate of orbital decay does matter | (even if it's not a "plummet"!) -- because everyone concerned | knows that solar activity should be increasing _to some extent_ | in 2022 as a new solar cycle takes hold. | | This plot of sunspot activity, and the (highly correlated) 10.7cm | radio flux, indicates that the current cycle (cycle #25) is | rising much faster than typical: | | https://www.swpc.noaa.gov/products/solar-cycle-progression | | As you can see, cycle #24, which ended in 2019, was quieter than | expected (annoying to solar physicists who only see a few cycles | within their whole career) -- so it's actually very interesting | that Cycle #25 is starting out with a bang. | | NOAA is the main US government agency tasked with | monitoring/predicting solar activity for the protection of ground | and space systems. The main facility is the Space Weather | Prediction Center which is in Boulder, CO -- that's the data | source of the above plots. The SWPC centerpiece used to be a | control room with a bunch of people looking at computer monitors | filled with various real-time and historical time series. | | We don't know why some cycles are less intense, and the last few | cycles have generally been on a downward trend (e.g., | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cycle#Sunspots). So again, it | is indeed quite interesting to see this high activity - if it | holds up. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-06-23 23:00 UTC)