[HN Gopher] Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf] ___________________________________________________________________ Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf] Author : vagab0nd Score : 229 points Date : 2022-06-25 14:43 UTC (8 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.sdfo.org) (TXT) w3m dump (www.sdfo.org) | rufus_foreman wrote: | Space Needle did the music for this, | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO1XhVV61ck. | | Which is weird because I don't really consider them to be a 60's | band. | djsavvy wrote: | This story hit me hard when I read it as a kid. | | When I was young, I read another story with a similar emotional | texture that I've been trying to find again for years now. It had | a mentally challenged boy who worked in a restaurant with a | lobster tank in the front, and the boy loved the lobster as a pet | and stopped the restaurant staff from killing and serving the | lobster. But one day when the boy was gone the lobster was | killed. | | I don't remember much but I've been looking for it for ages. I | hope I can find it and read it again someday. | _tom_ wrote: | Reddit tip of my tongue is also good for IDing old stories. | ginnungagap wrote: | This is probably enough information for the folks at the | Science Fiction & Fantasy Stackexchange | (https://scifi.stackexchange.com/) to identify the story, they | get similar story identification requests all the time and are | crazy good at it. | | If you do ask make sure to include approximately when you read | it and please let me know, I'm curious about your story too | now! | openbrian wrote: | See also the 1992 film | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lawnmower_Man_(film) | the_af wrote: | Interesting that this movie bears no relation at all to the | Stephen King short story of the same title on which it claimed | to be based. | | (In the short story, the titular lawnmower man is a faun-likely | creature, working for the god Pan, who literally eats the | lawn's grass with his own mouth) | floehopper wrote: | I first heard this as a radio play on BBC Radio4 back in 1991! | | * Metadata: | https://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/05b414af4bfa4923b9c9c3bc2257d5ef * | Audio: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=602882533671599 | radicalbyte wrote: | I read this book as part of me GCSE English in the UK. It's the | only book they had which I enjoyed and, like many others, it had | a big impact on me. | | It's up there with being taught about the evils of modern | history: Nazi's, Chile, Yemen, Slavery, Thatcher, Rand, | Holodomor, Leopald II, various Chinese genocide, European | genocides in both Americas.. | | That should be a part of the education of everyone living in free | and democratic societies. | dontbenebby wrote: | >That should be a part of the education of everyone living in | free and democratic societies. | | This _and_ Cat 's Cradle: | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%27s_Cradle | [deleted] | Banana699 wrote: | One of the few books (perhaps the only) that made me cry against | my will. It almost made me cry uncontrollably again now when one | comment quoted a section with the protoganist writing. | | I think it was one key building block that made me an anti- | natalist. It made me hate existence, it filled me with rage about | how unfair genetics and evolution in general are. | fairity wrote: | I think too many of us believe that intelligence is valuable, in | and of itself. Instead, I think we should value personal | excellence. That is, making the most of the intelligence you're | given. | | The arc of intelligence in Flowers of Algernon is the same arc | that we'll all experience over our lifetime. With old age, we, | too, will lose our intelligence. If we value intelligence, in and | of itself, we'll eventually face a crisis of sorts. But, if we | value making the most of our intelligence, we are resilient. | | Applying this framework to Charlie, there's much less to be sad | about. He made the most of the intelligence he was gifted, and | that's what really matters. | erybodyknows wrote: | I just read this story for the first time and gathered similar | insights on character, intelligence, and personal excellence. | | What stood out to me most was that he consistently tried to | excel with what he was given. To do better for himself, and to | help those around him. | | Another point that stood out to me is that from his most gifted | vantage point, he correctly identifies the all too human | fallibility of his Scientific Observers. Jealousy, greed, and | feelings of inferiority. | blader wrote: | Ted Chiang wrote a short story inspired by Flowers for Algernon | ("Understand") that explores what might happen if a guy just | never stopped getting smarter: | https://web.archive.org/web/20140527121332/http://www.infini... | | I love Flowers for Algernon, but Understand is my favorite short | story of all time. | SamBam wrote: | I adore most of Chiang's work, but _Understand_ is one of my | least favorites. Fun premise, yes, but it reads to me like much | less mature sci-fi, like something written by a teen about what | being super-smart would feel like. | gwern wrote: | That's the problem with any superintelligence story; they are | by definition hard to write without being superintelligent. | As Vinge was famously told, "you can't write this story. No | one can." If a chimpanzee could write a story about a human | expert of any sort, the other chimpanzees wouldn't understand | it: it would either be gibberish, or dumbed down to | superficial analogies that give an illusion of understanding. | ("Then he used his rifle -" "what's a rifle?" "it's a stick | which is like throwing a rock. Anyway, he traded some bananas | for it with another monkey off the Internet." "What's an | Internet?" "uh...") | | 'Flowers' gets around it by starting with a mentally retarded | protagonist and specifically trying to avoid any consequences | of superintelligence beyond the emotional & social journey, | so most of the story is accomplished 'on the runway', as it | were, and is about everything _but_ what he learns & does | with his intelligence which is pushed into the background. | You can see how it starts getting handwavy as soon as the | protagonist takes off to smarter than Keys himself, and he | starts having to show the progress by him simply doing | ordinary-human things but much faster than a dimmer human, | like rearranging the bakery for more efficiency or learning | Sanskrit in a week. While it's nice to be able to read German | or Sanskrit, it's not particularly useful, especially if you | are interested in neuroscience; a real protagonist would be | doing things Keys can't even imagine, which sound like | gibberish like 'ordinary differential equations' or | 'symplectic manifold'. Any societal implications are simply | ignored. | | With 'Understand', Chiang starts with an intelligent | protagonist, in a strictly realistic universe other than the | superintelligence, where he's well aware there would be major | societal consequences and military implications and the | protagonist can't simply sit around and play with his lab | mouse. So his back is against the narrative wall from the | start. He cannot do his usual world-building tricks because | he's both ruled out the world mechanics he is usually in a | privileged position to understand impossibly well because he | made them up in the first place, and because he's not smart | enough to write the superintelligent character he's assigned | himself. It's an interesting story, but I agree that it can't | be considered his best. Because he can't write that story as | well as he wants to, and no one can. | cmrdporcupine wrote: | _" the other chimpanzees wouldn't understand it: it would | either be gibberish, or dumbed down"_ | | This is kind of how "Excession" by Iain M Banks is. Much of | the dialogue in the book is supposed to be between the | hyperintelligent AI "Minds" that are the ships in his | Culture universe. It's supposed to be in a form similar to | how they talk to each other. It's quite hard to read. I can | never decide which of the two (gibberish or dumbed down) it | is. Probably both. | bgroat wrote: | That's wild because it's my exact opposite take. | | I found it to be one of the most thoughtful explorations of | super-intelligence and how it becomes qualitatively different | than conventional intelligence. | | I came away from it thinking, "This is Limitless if it were | written by a grownup" | notahacker wrote: | It would have felt much more plausible with a twist at the | end where his "superintelligence" was revealed to be a set of | delusions related to his cognitive impairment... | darkerside wrote: | You probably just didn't get it. | | Just kidding | cwillu wrote: | "You're not good at <game>, you just do random things for | an hour and then you randomly win." --words I've heard | mati365 wrote: | Mine too but I was always wondering why haven't the main | character mind been used by scientist to improving method used | in book? | uniqueuid wrote: | Chiang is great. His collection of short stories - exhalation - | is a ton of fun. | nine_k wrote: | Of Chiang's works, I think "72 Letters" is the most impressive: | it unfolds events and ideas worth a 1000-page novel in like 120 | KB of text. | dontbenebby wrote: | I tire of seeing this book stanned, and I'm gonna take a pause | from working on this Beamer presentation to say why. | | I wrote an essay about being twice exceptional a while back[0,1], | and no one has ever made any substantial effort to make up for | the wrongs from that period, instead treating a string of | precarious, low paying, but "prestigous" roles as some kind of | reward instead of a series of scams to enrich folks richer and | whiter than I am. | | I see the same circular discussions around it every time it comes | up, and we need to break that cycle, ASAP. | | I discovered Keyes around the time I used to get book | recommendations from an anarchist I'd run into in the smoker's | pit at a Catholic liberal arts college in the suburbs of | Pittsburgh, because I was being handed a slew of medications | rather than autonomy and respect for my dignity, so I'd smoke a | bunch to offset the effects of medications I should have never | been prescribed so I could study enough to pass my more | quanitative classes, since I'd never taken things like geometry | in a room free from being beaten bloody. | | On my end, due to COVID and a general feeling of hopelessness, I | used up the last of my social capital getting section 231[2] | passed, in homage to the anarchist who told me student government | and voting are useless when if we could just solve this issuer | that for many folks, they become radicalized by the fact that no | amount of learning will overcome algorithmic bias. | | I worry when I see the same discussions repeated over and over | that privileged folks do not understand how precarious their | positions are, and how bad things can get if you do not learn | from past mistakes and/or adjust to new opinion polling data if | it's accurate but doesn't mesh with your views on what should be | the foundations of geopolitics or whatever. | | Back around the time of the G20, I knew lots of people who'd say | don't do government, student or otherwise don't vote, none of it | matters. Then they'd do things like be so stern about being | antinuclear, the only "progressive" candidate is really just a | pro-fracking, pro-policing populist riding the coattails of those | who rose to prominence after Woodstock or whatever with | "libertarian" policies that often seem structured to ensure some | set of folks is forever precarious and thus, forever beholden to | some weird weed with ties to the Boys from Brazil or | whatever[3,4], as supposedly smart supposedly privileged autists | like myself sit waiting to be "discovered" like one of Jean Luc | Brunel's models[9]. | | I cannot emphasize enough how utterly infuriating it is to sit | with latex open in one window, a script you wrote in the second, | and a set of pdfs in the other that the intersection of few | people on the planet could parse in the 3rd through Nth, and an | inbox full of suggestions on things like which minimum wage | location might be willing to pay a fair wage for a dishwasher | while you learn to control your anxiety through some crack PsyD | when the core issue you have is the same you've had since the | last recession -- lack of reoccuring income paired with the | perpetual trauma of always being the wrong type of special to be | given stability and freedom. | | As always, I'm happy to send a CV and code samples to anyone | sincerely looking to interview candidates, but I make posts like | this because a string of people interviewed me in good faith, and | either ignored the advice and got angry when I pointed out their | systems suffered breaches[5,6], disasters[7], or (wo)man made | catastrophes[8] after they ignored what I said after they asked | for my thoughts... or took it, ran with it, and enriched | themselves without ever actually hiring me, but I won't cite them | -- I'll settle for backing their opponents in private until I can | remind them I told them about Metcalfe's law[9] years ago. | | (The era of treating interviews like free consulting sessions is | over, I'll sell every stock in my IRA and move to a bunker in | Bologna before I let this pattern continue another year -- but | thanks for the PDF and the discussion space, let's see if folks | seize this opportunity to engage in lateral thinking rather than | reply like robots. ;-) ) | | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twice_exceptional | | [1] | https://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/pedagogyofthedepressed.htm... | | [2] | https://ballotpedia.org/Pittsburgh,_Pennsylvania,_Independen... | | [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Fetterman#Policing | | [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Fetterman#Israel | | [5] | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Personnel_Management... | | [6] | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SolarWinds#2019%E2%80%932020_s... | | [7] | https://web.archive.org/web/20210316185708/https://www.bbvau... | | [8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YouTube_headquarters_shooting | | [9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalfe's_law | | [9] https://www.npr.org/2022/02/19/1081961087/jeffrey-epstein- | je... | bhouston wrote: | How does this compare to the experience of taking focus drugs for | those that have problems focusing? Is the film "Limitless" a | modern retelling of this in some aspects? | pmoriarty wrote: | If you liked the story don't ever read the book. | | The author apparently felt the story didn't have enough sex in | it, so he added a bunch of it to the book, along with a big | helping of Freudian analysis. Ugh... | awinter-py wrote: | with perks of being a wallflower, belongs to a very strong | subgenre of epistolary novels by narrators named charlie | sslapec wrote: | My elder brother is mentally challenged due to lack of oxygen | when he was born. I had this idea a few years ago of how would he | experience the world if he'd suddenly become healthy. How would | he deal with his previous life, etc. I once mentioned my thoughts | to my boss during a lunch and he told me there's already a novel | about it. That's how I've discovered Flowers for Algernon. | rayiner wrote: | Awakenings with Robin Williams (in a serious role) is another | exploration of that issue. Incredibly touching movie. | dontbenebby wrote: | Sorry about your brother, I had a friend die waiting on an | organ transplant when I was in single digits and I have no | siblings. | | People focus a lot of things like being nice regardless of race | or social class, but trauma holds you back and no algorithm | takes it into account that I've seen, just measures things to | the side. | | I'm glad you had a supportive leader who gave you something | enriching for the soul to read. | sslapec wrote: | That's kind, thank you. I'm sorry for your friend. I hope you | did cope with the trauma somehow. | ncmncm wrote: | Compare Wilmar Shiras, "in Hiding" (1948) and David Palmer, | "Emergence" (1981). | johnny_reilly wrote: | This book changed me. I was an idle eight year old, and my school | didn't give us homework to do. So my father decided to set me | homework of his own devising, which on one occasion was reading | Flowers for Algernon. | | I was moved by the story of a man who had little natural ability, | straining to make the best of what he had. Then becoming smarter | than everyone around him, and then what follows. | | There's many things to take from this story. I took away that we | should make the best of what we have. To do otherwise is to miss | out. Never take what you have for granted. Everything is a | blessing; don't waste it. | psbp wrote: | I was always insecure about my intelligence and I remember | coming away with this same idea from the book. Life is really | just a series of experiences. You don't need to meet a certain | standard or qualify yourself in order to have positive | experiences or to have an impact. We often place so much | emphasis on comparison and measuring our success/potential that | we miss the whole process of living. | swayvil wrote: | Vipassana meditation makes you smarter. There seems to be no | ceiling. But it's also weird. For what that's worth. | | I wonder if Mr Keyes meditated. | tanseydavid wrote: | I was first exposed to it in movie form, called Charly and | starring Cliff Robertson. | | https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062794/ | | It had a big impact on me and I immediately wanted it in book | form after seeing the movie. | Asparagirl wrote: | There was a musical version of the story too, "Charlie and | Algernon" -- though it never got to Broadway. The music was by | Charles Strouse, who also wrote the music for "Bye Bye Birdie" | and "Annie". | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_and_Algernon | icedchai wrote: | I remember reading the book back in the late 80's. I was | probably in 7th grade? Enjoyable book. I'll check out the | movie. | adroitboss wrote: | This book was on my reading list in 9th grade! I cried at the | end. I felt for the main character all throughout the book. | travelling_54 wrote: | I guess Flowers for Algernon might be considered science fiction, | but in any case it was set in the future (1965). The original | short story was published in 1959. Maybe should change the title | of this entry? | dekhn wrote: | Speculative fiction. | gramie wrote: | I learned about the book after several famous SF authors said | that it contained their favourite last line. | ms4720 wrote: | That was one of the most tragic Greek tragedies I saw or read | dc-programmer wrote: | This was a formative read for me many years ago but only recently | realized there is also a novel version. Has anyone here read | both? | tyrust wrote: | The novel is short enough that I'd recommend it. If you really | don't read much, though, the short story gets the point across. | | Either way, highly recommended. | nathell wrote: | I have. I started with the novel, in a Polish translation, when | I was maybe 13, and it had resonated with me so much that to | this day I consider it _the_ most important book I've ever | read. A formative read, indeed. | | I read the short story a few years after that. I think it's the | essence; I perceive it as a distillation of the novel (rather | than the novel a dilution of the story, though I'm aware the | story was first.) I guess had I started with it, I'd be | considering it _the_ most important short story I've ever read | today. | remoquete wrote: | It's commonly agreed that the short version is way better. | ghaff wrote: | The novel and film are "fine" as I recall but the short story | is the real classic. | jeffbee wrote: | Indeed. And it wasn't written in 1965, despite this title. | solardev wrote: | (For anyone wondering, Wikipedia says it was written in | 1958 and first published in 1959. | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowers_for_Algernon) | solardev wrote: | I've only read the novel... didn't realize there was a short | story version of it until just now. The short story reads a lot | like, well, a short version of how I remember the novel to be. | | FWIW the novel was also excellent and is one of my all-time | favorite books. As someone who is smart but not that smart, in | a culture (software/tech) where intelligence is fetishly | worshipped to the detriment of other personality traits, this | was a very humbling, humanizing, and deeply touching read. | | EDIT: Actually, I just read the short story version. The story | is essentially the same, as you'd expect, but the pacing | suffered a little bit IMO. It was more believable in the longer | form, where plot developments happened more gradually and the | characters were fleshed out more. The novelization has more | emotional impact because it was a smoother journey (at least as | I remembered it) vs the rapid progression of the short story | version. But, granted, it didn't help that I already knew the | basic premise before reading the shorter version, so YMMV. | Still, if you have time, why not go for the full thing? It's | the sort of story that invites quiet contemplation instead of | quick digestion. | quanto wrote: | She said dont be scared Charlie you done so much with so | little I think you deserv it most of all. | | Charlie was a man with a good heart, motivation, and self- | awareness, and yet the world was not so kind to him. The story | reminds me of something I read somewhere: be kind to less | intelligent people -- the world is already not so kind to them. | ChrisMarshallNY wrote: | Not just intelligence. We can easily find reasons to feel that | people should be shunned/excluded/shut out. | | I think there was a posting here, a couple of days ago, about | the pleasure folks get, from bullying members of an "outgroup." | Heck, I had an exchange with someone on this very platform, | earlier today, who ended up "going there" (I left them | screeching into the void. It seemed to make them feel better). | It's really quite difficult to resist getting drawn into that | kind of stuff. Really visceral. Takes real effort to tear | myself away. | | It's _very_ primitive. The desire to shun "other" is embedded | into our BIOS. Difficult to counter. Also, the desire to fight, | when we perceive that "other" is somehow encroaching on "our" | turf. | | I've had to do a lot of personal navel-gazing in the last | couple of years. Had to face some rather unpleasant personal | truths. I have had to let go of a lot of cherished little turd | dolls that I've been clutching to my bosom. | | Fortunately, I have a framework for that kind of work. | HeyLaughingBoy wrote: | > It's really quite difficult to resist getting drawn into | that kind of stuff. | | Yes. | | This took me back to my middle twenties and disengaging | myself from an argument with someone who had parked blocking | my driveway. As I was discussing it later with the friend I | was renting the apartment from, I said pretty much those | words, "it's hard not letting yourself be drawn into someone | else's anger." He agreed and we had a pretty good | conversation about that. | | Nothing to add other than you reminded me of an interesting | afternoon long ago :-) | throwaway879080 wrote: | jl6 wrote: | Also: we are all less intelligent than someone, so treat people | right because soon it will be your turn. | swayvil wrote: | Also, smart and stupid look much alike (in that both | experience a state of few unsolved riddles). So beware. | | Frankly, I think the desire (I want to crush somebody) comes | first and the justification (he's a fool so it's only just | that I crush him) comes second. | exysle wrote: | I like to think that the gods mankind and corporations create, | artilects, will see mentally disabled and geniuses the same way | - it will only care whether or not they are good people, since | their intelligence is incomparable to the artilect. | ta8645 wrote: | There is a prevailing contempt these days for less intelligent | and less educated people, that is very unseemly and | disheartening. | swayvil wrote: | In the past our stories had "the wise fool" and "the noble | pauper". We don't really do that now. All of our heros are | rich, smart and beautiful. It's a crassification no doubt. | Maybe a shift in the target demographic is to blame. | dotancohen wrote: | Such contempt is not unique to "these days". And for what | it's worth, there is no less contempt for the educated, never | mind the intelligent, among those subcultures who praise and | harvest ignorance. | Barrin92 wrote: | >Such contempt is not unique to "these days" | | It certainly is among otherwise self-declared tolerant | people. The Atlantic wrote a great piece a few years ago | called 'The War on Stupid people', pointing out that in | communities that have strict rules of conduct concerning | just about any form of discrimination, you'll find people | casually joking about 'darwin awards' when some stupid | person dies a grueling death. Imagine you'd introduce one | for obese people in a tolerant, young internet community. | | Intelligence is increasingly conflated with human worth, | and people who scoff at every form of inequality these days | will gladly make an exception for intelligence, calling it | meritocratic. The word itself is a good indicator of the | change in attitude, given that Michael Young who coined it | did so for satirical purposes, describing a future British | society that is governed by an undemocratic elite selected | through IQ tests. | KerrAvon wrote: | No, I don't buy it. What defines "smart" in those | communities in the first place? | dvt wrote: | > be kind to less intelligent people -- the world is already | not so kind to them. | | This feels weirdly patronizing. Why not just treat every person | with humanity and respect and be kind to them regardless of any | particular trait or lack thereof? | basilgohar wrote: | I see it as more of a reminder and to pay attention. We all | have ranges/spectrums at which we operate. You can say, | "shouldn't you just be kind to everyone", and the answer is, | "yes, of course". But then, how that kindness is shaped and | applied - for example, kindness can be offering help, or | waiting to be asked for help (but being prepared to help). I | think it's ultimately about awareness of how you can be kind | in different ways. | | For those that are deemed less intelligent, that kindness can | take the shape of increased patience with things that seem | obvious or easy to others, whereas for folks operating at a | level more similar to you, you might behave differently | justifiably. This is just one example that crossed my mind in | this case. | | We understand that dealing with children and dealing with | adults is frequently different, and we wouldn't call that | patronizing, we'd call it operating at the level appropriate | for them. We might tolerate something from a children, and | deem acceptable for their level, while tolerating the same | thing for an adult in the same context would be considered | unacceptable. There are all kinds of different ways to behave | differently in different context. | | So, yes, "choose kindness", but I took the statement beyond | its face value to mean "exert yourself to be kind" and find | out what that means in the most appropriate way based on the | situation. | Banana699 wrote: | It is not patronizing, unless any differential kindness | whatsoever is patronizing. But this is clearly not the case : | being overly kind to war refugees more than other immigrants | is not patronizing, it's acceptance of the empirical fact | that they are (with high probability) the least fortunate | type of immigrants and a rational moral reaction to that | fact. Similarly, being overly kind to your one friend who had | just lost a family member is not patronizing. And so on. Off | course you shouldn't _appear_ to be more kind to them, | because this is really just showing off\virtue signalling and | it 's insulting to them, but you should _be_ more kind to | them, without appearing to be so. It 's difficult, but | doable. | | Less intelligent people lost a genetic lottery (like a lot of | us with varying degrees), but the particular round they lost | on is one of the worst, in practical terms. They deserve more | kindness and help. No patronization in that. | DrTung wrote: | Long time ago I read a novel called Brain Wave by Paul Anderson | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_Wave (it predates Flowers for | Algernon by about 10 years). | | It has a similar theme of suddenly acquired intelligence but for | the whole planet. I you like Flowers for Algernon you'll like | Brain Wave. | binbag wrote: | What a great novel. | bookofjoe wrote: | A Canticle For Leibowitz (1959) [pdf] | | https://d-pdf.com/book/3997/read | jcadam wrote: | Excellent novel, had to buy it in hardcopy because it wasn't | available on kindle. | uniqueuid wrote: | Despite all my rational efforts; all the maths and research - | there is a speck of insight that only poetry and literature can | reach. It's irritating and comforting at the same time. | vagab0nd wrote: | Thank you for this. This is exactly how I felt but could not | articulate. | uniqueuid wrote: | Thanks, that makes me happy. | | You might also like this phrase I adore, which expresses the | same sentiment in a more general way: | | "And the words slide into the slots ordained by syntax, and | glitter as with atmospheric dust with those impurities which | we call meaning." | | Of course, Anthony Burgess is much more of a poet than I am. | sydthrowaway wrote: | All the world's combined poetry and literature won't get you to | the moon, or solve the world's energy crisis. It's all a bunch | of tosh - don't stop building. | bcbrown wrote: | To get to the moon, you first have to want to get to the | moon. Literature excels at disseminating dreams and desires. | uniqueuid wrote: | I never said that poetry gets you to the moon. | | But when you're there - how do you cope with the heat death | of the universe, or the loss of your close ones, or how do | you justify being there? How do you find joy in your | mornings, and how do you empathise with others, the living | and the once-living? | messe wrote: | No, but it might make you just as happy or fulfilled. | marginalia_nu wrote: | All the mathematics in the world can't tell you why you would | want to go to the moon. | objectivetruth wrote: | virtualwhys wrote: | Odd, was just having lunch with a friend and asked if he'd ever | read this book -- low and behold, here it is on HN. | | This is the short story version, but I've read the book several | times. It's not Tolstoy level literature, but I find myself drawn | into this beautiful story of life, death, and compassion again | and again. | gHA5 wrote: | See also "Flowers for Charlie", S9E8 of It's Always Sunny in | Philadelphia | | https://m.imdb.com/title/tt2999352/ | abcanthur wrote: | For a very similar but different up and down story arc that | both makes one appreciate the value of one's own mental | faculties, and stirs compassion for those with diminished | abilities, I highly recommend the movie "Awakenings." | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awakenings De Niro and Robin | Williams, based on an Oliver Sacks book, which I haven't read | but it probably great. | jcadam wrote: | Too sad to watch more than once. | SV_BubbleTime wrote: | It's fine, I'm the next episode Charlie goes back to | bashing rats. | amai wrote: | It is the story of growing up as a kid, then becoming a smart | adult, and then growing old and stupid again condensed to a much | shorter time frame. That is why everyone can relate to it in some | way. | WaffleIronMaker wrote: | I read this so long ago, but nothing else I've read has used the | very medium of language to communicate character development so | effectively. | JohnJamesRambo wrote: | One of my very favorite books. Read at a young age; it would be | hard to say what parts of myself are me and what parts came from | this book and became me. | photochemsyn wrote: | There's something curiously American about Flowers for | Algernon... our general popular culture tends to value physical | achievement (the athlete) more than mental achievement (the | nerd/geek). So here's the story of how the co-workers/peers of a | mentally disabled individual, Charlie, (who they ridicule | initially) react to the reversal of that disability (with | suspicion and distrust) and then the re-imposition of that | disability (with protective behavior, and a degree of guilt and | shame). The whole story is really more illustrative of the co- | worker's behavior & values than anything else. | | Other cultures seem to have a more balanced view (i.e. mental | development and physical development should go hand-in-hand, and | an either-or approach is considered unhealthy). American culture | in contrast developed the stereotypes of 'dumb jock' and 'scrawny | nerd' - Hollywood's fault, maybe? | narag wrote: | That's, more or less, one of the first questions I asked in | this site. Paul Graham answered with photos of the football | team and the chess club. It seems there is a physical | difference bigger than what I've observed in Spain and more on | the side of athletes. I don't see that kind of massive teens | over here in campuses. | KerrAvon wrote: | To be honest, a USA football team is as unfair a comparison | as you can get -- they need to be physically bulky to be good | at the sport. Baseball or basketball players would be a more | useful comparison. | solardev wrote: | One layer deeper, it was also illustrative of how the | supposedly smarter people (the researchers and teacher) also | reacted to his journey, and of who's "allowed" to be smart | without being perceived as threatening. It's not as | straightforward as just "jocks vs nerds", but how the | scientists work with each other, how the teacher treats him vs | the researchers, how the lab mouse is alternately thought of | either disposable or a beloved pet, the many different degrees | and directions of otherization between all the characters, etc. | | It's social commentary, sure, but a relatively nuanced one at | that :) By my reading/IMHO, the isolation, loneliness, and | insecurity/otherization of all the characters in the story were | heavier than any overt comparison of athleticism vs | intellectualism. | | American culture isn't just athletic, it's also quite shallow: | everyone projects success and happiness but suffer deeper down | and are afraid to introspect, share vulnerabilities, or form | meaningful communities. The invisible individualism causes | suffering both for the characters in the book and real people | in our society. It's an interesting thing to think about, no? | Hollywood these days doesn't celebrate raw martial athleticism | as much anymore, but the rugged individualist hero (who's both | smart and physically somewhat capable, like Marvel or DC | heroes) is typically also socially dysfunctional and | emotionally underdeveloped. The indie and foreign films are a | lot better at capturing nuance... our blockbusters are mostly | still just broken-men-blowing-things-up kinda deals. | pmoriarty wrote: | _" American culture isn't just athletic, it's also quite | shallow: everyone projects success and happiness but suffer | deeper down and are afraid to introspect, share | vulnerabilities, or form meaningful communities."_ | | There isn't just one American culture, there are many... with | people not infrequently belonging to many subcultures. We | should be wary of painting America (or any other country) | with one broad brush. | solardev wrote: | Sure, but you can group and subdivide cultures however you | like. There are subcultures within subcultures, yet at the | same time there is a broadly American culture and maybe a | broadly Western one, etc. Like species, there's no precise | test for a unit of culture, it's just different zoom | levels... each level of grouping or subdivision has its | uses. | | Relative to other national identities I've had experience | with, I believe that Americans in particular are quite | obsessed with aesthetics, everything from hair color to | deodorants to artificially aligning and whitening teeth, to | identifying with musical subgenres as a method of personal | belonging and appearance. If there is no American culture | then there is no Americana, which I don't believe, and | would be a great loss to the cultural richness of the | modern era... everything from Blues to bluegrass to Blue's | Clues to blue jeans. | | American culture has a richness that's hard to appreciate | or even recognize these days, when it's so embroiled in | modern culture wars, but it's definitely there and | definitely distinct from, say, Japanese culture of the | postwar years or 1800s France. | red_admiral wrote: | > our general popular culture tends to value physical | achievement (the athlete) more than mental achievement (the | nerd/geek) | | Isn't that changing, possibly for the worse - don't you now | need a college degree for almost anything above the lowest | tiers? | photochemsyn wrote: | I think there's been significant recent pushback on that | trend, with more widespread recognition that skilled trades, | vocational school, and non-college routes don't automatically | imply second-class status (particularly considering the high | costs and debt college grads get saddled with). | | However, as far as 'elite colleges', there is this unhealthy | trend towards a more 19th-century British posh/prole divide | in the educational system, but that's been going on for some | time. That's not about quality of education so much as elite | networking schemes and the creation of an American | aristocracy. | taeric wrote: | I'm curious. I've never seen anything to make me think other | cultures are that different in this regard. Would be interested | in learning more. | frostburg wrote: | Well, terrible recent developments notwithstanding, Russians | revere the authors of their literary canon. Arguing that a | successful athlete is more important than Tolstoj or Pushkin | would generally be ridiculed. | | Even here in Italy, despite an unhealthy national obsession | with association football, if considering the whole body of | society nobody is held in higher public regard than esteemed | painters, poets, writers etc. (athletes are loved but not | believed to be particularly bright). | taeric wrote: | That doesn't seem too off to USA. Famous authors are still | respected. Most authors aren't. | | I also feel that modern authors aren't given the same | treatment. | solardev wrote: | In some East Asian cultures, there isn't really a concept for | a "nerd" (or conversely, a "jock"). People just learn what | they can, and exercise in whatever ways they can. It's | recognized that there are different ability levels in both, | but they're not considered opposite parts of a spectrum. | | If you try to translate "nerd" to Chinese, for example | (https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4505), there isn't | really a neat translation... one of the closer translations | would be something akin to a "bookworm", but even in that | meaning, it's more to describe someone who's deeply | interested in a very esoteric topic (say, the springtime | dietary preferences of Han dynasty peasants), rather than | someone who's smart but socially and physically inept. If you | just sit at home all day and study, people will tell you to | get more exercise, but there's not really a term for that | beyond "you should exercise more". It's not a taunt or a | pejorative. | | It's just not assumed that these are exclusionary spheres of | being; you are expected to gradually develop your mental, | physical, emotional, and social skills altogether, and a lot | of the cultural development is in finessing out when to use | which skills, whether you're a warrior or politician or | emperor. | taeric wrote: | I don't know. This feels like it is leaning too heavily on | single words. Translate aunt, and see that that is | similarly difficult. | | Still, I can't and don't reject the idea. Would love to see | a comprehensive study. At a personal level, I don't | remember these things in school, either. They were | archetypes, but nobody was a solid archetype. Such that I | find it hard to believe you don't see folks through some of | these lenses. | solardev wrote: | Words (or in their case, characters & the concepts) | partially define culture, though. If you don't have an | easy word for something, whether it's a personality or a | color, it's a foreign idea to you. Sure, someone can | translate it for you and tell you what it means, but it's | not the same as having it be a part of your culture. | Someone can explain "tea time" to me, but as an American, | it will always be a Britishism even though I understand | the concepts of tea and gathering and hours. It's just | not a part of my cultural existence. | | FWIW, anecdotally, I grew up in a culture much like what | I described, and it wasn't until I moved to America that | I learned what "nerd" meant. Nobody around me in | childhood ever made that distinction. Similarly, I found | it odd that Americans identified by musical genres in | high school. But sure, these things would be fascinating | thing to ethnographically! | taeric wrote: | I think that has been fairly heavily disproven. That | language defines culture. | | I meant my anecdote to be that I grew up in America, and | didn't see this behavior at large. Outside of movies. | | Completely agreed that it is an interesting topic. | rayiner wrote: | That's a different point--you can't conceptualize an | orange if you don't have a word for orange. OP is making | the opposite point: you don't have a word for orange if | you don't have oranges. The absence of a clear word (much | less several) for a "nerd" stereotype might reflect a | culture that doesn't create that categorization. | | Coming from south Asian culture, for example, we don't | really have a similar concept either. | darkerside wrote: | Disproven is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. Is there | a study you are citing? | taeric wrote: | Fair. I meant my claim there more as a question. I only | have vague memories of the Sapir Whorf hypothesis. | Quickly scanning, I can't find anything definitive. | Probably the criticism from Pinker, is what I remember? | dekhn wrote: | Not exactly a direct response, but see | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron which imho is | the best statement for gifted education that I have ever seen. | It anticipates the current situation better than any | speculative fiction. | pmoriarty wrote: | Why do you think that? Exceptional people are highly valued | in today's society... Examples don't even need to be | mentioned.. we all know their names. | | Harrison Bergeron still seems to be firmly in the realm of | science fiction. | Viliam1234 wrote: | People hate intelligence, but they respect power more. | Money is a form of power. | | So when the intelligent people get rich today, they are | respected. But as kids, they are often bullied. | | The opposition to gifted education has the same source. If | the gifted kids come from a rich family, they can get all | the tutors they need anyway. And if they come from a poor | family, screw them. | kurthr wrote: | Why is it banned? Graphic sexual content! /s | | https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Flowers-for-Algernon-banned-in-... | shrx wrote: | It's funny how the top-voted comment doesn't even answer the | question. | ricardolopes wrote: | I remember reading this book in my teenage years and being moved | by its story. I still think about it, and it's one I'd definitely | recommend. | | I wonder how it got to the top of hn all of a sudden though. | eranation wrote: | Is this a short story that predated the full novel? Flowers for | Algernon that I read was 300 pages or so... what am I missing? | _tom_ wrote: | Yes. It was later expanded to a novel. And then a movie. | dmitrygr wrote: | Absolutely my favorite story and my favorite reply to anyone who | says that ignorance is bliss. It is only so if you have never | tried the other alternative - knowing. After knowing, ignorance | is not bliss. Knowing poisons happiness forever. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-06-25 23:00 UTC)