[HN Gopher] Lockheed Martin Prepar 3D ___________________________________________________________________ Lockheed Martin Prepar 3D Author : doener Score : 156 points Date : 2022-07-11 13:54 UTC (9 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.prepar3d.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.prepar3d.com) | adolph wrote: | Wht a fascinating EULA stipulation: | | _Prepar3D is not to be used, offered, sold or distributed | through markets or channels for use as a personal /consumer | entertainment product._ | | https://www.prepar3d.com/product-overview/prepar3d-license-c... | Macha wrote: | Microsoft sold off the rights to FSX to two parties. Lockheed | got the rights to the "professional" version and Dovetail the | rights to the "consumer" version. Same starting codebase, | Lockheed released Prepar3d and Dovetail the somewhat successful | Flight Simulator X Steam Edition and later the unsuccessful | Flight Sim World. | | I'm sure this is a CYA clause to show they're not stepping on | dovetail's license and little else. | jaywalk wrote: | Lockheed Martin just doesn't want to be in the "video game" | business. They'll still gladly take your money, though. | iggldiggl wrote: | It might possibly also have been one of the contract | stipulations when Microsoft licensed the FSX code to | Lockheed. | kube-system wrote: | Its almost an obvious stipulation if you're intending on | continuing the franchise. | jaywalk wrote: | Didn't even think about that angle, but it makes a lot of | sense. | joezydeco wrote: | Funny thing is... they used to be. | | https://segaretro.org/Lockheed_Martin | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real3D | codethief wrote: | From https://prepar3d.com/product-overview/ : | | > Prepar3D (pronounced "prepared") is a visual simulation | platform that allows users to create training scenarios across | aviation, maritime and ground domains. Prepar3D engages users in | immersive training through realistic environments. | m0llusk wrote: | For me the site slowed and then returned only database access | errors. It seems they were not prepared. | metadat wrote: | Is there a way to run a demo version or otherwise try this out to | make sure I want it before buying a full-fledged license? | | On a related note- | | Recent HN submission covering Geo-FS: a free, web-based, global | satellite imagery flight simulator | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30345760 | armchairhacker wrote: | Slightly off-tangent, but i really wish there was a good, freely | available, decent-quality dataset of the world surface (like | Google Earth but anyone can use it). I obviously don't expect | everywhere to be fully mapped but even popular cities like Boston | don't have very good models. And it would be _amazing_ to even | have models of some of the more rural places. | | It would make a great scene for games and animated movies. The | world is a beautiful place and seeing places you've been is | nostalgic. | mmaunder wrote: | I wonder if the NGIA might release their radar mapping of the | Earths surface at some point. Kind of like the mapping | databases available from the census dept. | dewey wrote: | It always makes me a bit sad to see how much time, energy and | money is wasted on mapping and 3D modelling the same place over | and over again and everyone accumulating all this data in their | own silos. | | Google Maps, OSM, Apple Maps, Bing Maps and all the work that | Microsoft Flight Simulator is doing by building 3D models of | every airport and city from scratch. | | MS at least have a good way of utilizing Bing maps in the game | and probably have data flowing both ways in case they improve | something but seems like a giant waste of resources. | tgorgolione wrote: | What's interesting about this is that they are using Microsoft's | Flight Simulator X's codebase, and I think plugins that work in | FSX will work in Prepar3D. | akpa1 wrote: | It's veeeeery hit and miss as to if an FSX add-on will work | with P3D. One reason is that FSX is 32-bit only whereas P3D is | 64-bit as of v4 - they've changed a lot of stuff. | mm007emko wrote: | Until Prepar3D version 3 it was somewhat true. Since V4 it is | 64-bit and it broke the compatibility with most older plug-ins. | IceHegel wrote: | This looks about as good as heavily modded battlefield 1942. | That's not saying it's bad sim software, but its look is behind | the times. | ramesh31 wrote: | >This looks about as good as heavily modded battlefield 1942. | That's not saying it's bad sim software, but its look is behind | the times. | | It's a modified FSX engine. So yes, about the same vintage as | BF1942. | t0mas88 wrote: | It's based on an old version of MS Flight Simulator from around | 2009 or 2010 or so. | | The graphics aren't any worse than most multi-million dollar | full flight simulators used for pilot training. Even better | compared to some of the slightly older simulators. | afterburner wrote: | Thing about multi-million dollar full flight simulators used | for pilot training is, I doubt they're as concerned about | having the latest picture perfect beautiful graphics. | kqr wrote: | This is corroborated by research into training for | expertise. Simulations don't need much visual fidelity to | be useful. At no point do you need to be fooled into | thinking you're doing the real thing. | | The important thing is that your mind and hands go through | the right motions. | | (This is useful knowledge! I have trained system | administrators with simulations that basically amount to | pen-and-paper role-playing with some screenshots | interspersed.) | t0mas88 wrote: | Indeed, in the older ones the graphics for any enroute | flying are even completely missing. They'll by default get | you into the clouds at 400 or 1000ft above ground level and | come out at similar heights on landing. In between the | front windows just turn white. | | That's fine for learning to fly a 737, by that time it | doesn't matter much anymore. But for earlier training it's | too easy, because in the real world partial visibility and | light effects in clouds cause much more disorientation than | zero visibility. | akie wrote: | Google cache: | https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:cKimjW... | johnohara wrote: | The Warthog Project on YT is worth mentioning here as an example | of what happens when passion meets technology. Been watching | since the second vid. Never disappointed. [0] | | He uses Digital Combat Simulator (DCS) from Eagle Dynamics SA. | They also sell commercial versions of their simulator software. | [1] | | Getting the terrain right is one thing. Getting the cockpits | right is another matter entirely. [2] | | [0] | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJq3cq9N6xYF0fAvTgpwoBg/vid... | [1] https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/ [2] | https://www.rferl.org/a/u-s-deports-russian-convicted-of-smu... | dharmab wrote: | Other cool related resources are OpenHornet and /r/HotasDIY | fffobar wrote: | With the successes of F-22/F-35, PAC/Patriot and HIMARS/M270 | (each is an obvious top of the shelf product in its category) - | is Lockheed now going after Boeing's professional flight | simulator supremacy? | joezydeco wrote: | Here's a YouTube livestream where someone hooked up Prepar3D to | an ADS-B receiver and created a virtual planespotting system at | LAX: | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0GrpAgdBFI | r212 wrote: | Thats so cool | illwrks wrote: | That's brilliant! It took me a few minutes to understand what I | was looking at... realtime data, hooked into a flight sim, live | streamed. | joezydeco wrote: | It seems like there's of potential for synthetic displays | like this in other areas or industries - the buzzword du jour | being "digital twin" but that's more for simulation, maybe | this is more augmented reality? But you need a really solid | set of incoming data to make it happen. The openness of ADS-B | is the huge advantage here. | mmaunder wrote: | On a related note, Foreflight integrates really well with MSFS | and when you combine that with PilotEdge it's a great learning | tool. Works with Prepar and X-Plane too. | t0mas88 wrote: | Yes, perfect for IFR and procedure training. The lack of | control loading / feedback in home simulators makes it not a | great choice for primary training. I've had to teach some | simulator enthusiasts in real aircraft for primary training, | there is a lot to unlearn. Especially in terms of trimming, | fine gained control and looking outside. | | But for IFR training if you already know how it fly it's | amazing what home sims can do. Add in Navigraph to get up to | date data / procedures and Jeppesen charts and you get a | better real world representation than some of the certified | simulators used in flight training. | dlojudice wrote: | > Prepar3D furthers the development of Microsoft(r) ESP(tm) while | maintaining compatibility with Microsoft Flight Simulator X, | allowing many thousands of add-ons to be used within Prepar3D. | [1] | | Interesting. Microsoft ESP? First time I hear about this | Microsoft product. Furthermore the simulation is based on | Microsoft Flight Simulator X, 2006 software. | | [1] https://www.prepar3d.com/product-overview/ | rburhum wrote: | I worked on this product for a year back in the day. The cool | thing about MS ESP was that we used the FSX Engine for the | "1000 foot experience". Everything looked great from far above, | but not close by. The solution to this was that MS Train | Simulator 2 made tons of improvements for the "1 foot | experience". The idea was to include a "world editor" with | world-wide geospatial data, too. | https://youtu.be/GXzE1Yb54xU?t=406 The physics models of the | planes and the trains were great, but obviously to be a generic | simulator you needed to include physics engines for other types | of objects like Cars. So we grabbed the physics engine of Forza | and included it there. These things combined were honestly | beautiful - and add to that the backwards compatibility with | all the 3rd party FSX plugins/adds ons. Bummer that this is | exactly when the iPhone came out and the cloud-based strategies | were taking over "classic" enterprise software. Re-org and bye | bye FSX/TrainSim2/ESP. I had left before this happened, but was | really a bummer not to see the full potential of ESP :-( | mynameisvlad wrote: | ESP seems to be the commercial platform based off Flight | Simulator X: | | https://news.microsoft.com/2007/11/14/microsoft-esp-debuts-a... | yodon wrote: | ESP was an effort to turn Flight Simulator into a general | purpose commercial and military sim. They assembled a great | team to do that, then shut it all down in the aftermath of the | 2008 crash. Balmer decided some part of Microsoft Game Studios | needed to be shut down to save costs and the Flight Sim team | had always been an outsider with the weakest political | connections into the core of MGS, so even though the ESP | business plan was much more sensible than most of the MGS | products, it was the piece that ended up getting killed. | com2kid wrote: | > Balmer decided some part of Microsoft Game Studios needed | to be shut down to save costs and the Flight Sim team had | always been an outsider with the weakest political | connections into the core of MGS, so even though the ESP | business plan was much more sensible than most of the MGS | products, it was the piece that ended up getting killed. | | Worse than that. | | This was relayed to me by someone who worked on the flight | sim team. | | So flight sim wasn't actually part of Microsoft game studio, | they were in the middle of transitioning over when the shit | hit the fan. The head of the organization that they were a | part of (I forget what it was called), blocked the transfer | so he could keep the flight sim team around as that org's | sacrificial lamb to be laid off. | M3L0NM4N wrote: | I play MSFS a lot with realistic add-on planes like the A32NX or | the PMDG 737, even though the flight model isn't quite "as good" | as XP or P3D, the visual dominance of MSFS adds so much to the | immersion for me. | mm007emko wrote: | Well, I honestly put flight modelling over graphics every | single day. X-Plane 11 might not be as good as MSFS in terms of | graphics but everything else (i.e. the really important things) | is. | cardiffspaceman wrote: | There was a "flight simulator" ported from SGI GL to | OpenGL+Windows when Microsoft embraced OpenGL. There were a | small variety of aircraft in this program. I could take off | in the 747, kill the engines and glide to a safe landing. | Considering I have no experience whatsoever with real | aircraft, that's probably not realistic. | blt wrote: | I heard somewhere it can be counterproductive to learn stick | and rudder skills in sim, that sim time is better spent | learning how to use instruments, automation, fly complex | procedures like DME arc, etc. So maybe the fidelity of | aircraft system models (vs aerodynamics) is also really | important? | Macha wrote: | There's some amount of the physical feedback you get in a | real plane (from resistance in flight controls to actual | physical sensation of the movement) is not something you | can get without a lot more sophisticated sim setup than | most people will have at home and then also as you mention | the model of the flight characteristics not matching the | real airplane | M3L0NM4N wrote: | For me, I am not a real pilot (yet) and can't really tell the | difference in 99% of cases. Also, the fidelity of 3rd party | addon planes in MSFS is just as good if not better than in | XP. | stby wrote: | I think it should be noted that Prepar3D exists for 12 years now | [1] and has been heavily used by flight sim enthusiasts after FSX | development was stopped and before MSFS came to the market. It is | somewhat unclear were exactly this is used for professional | training. The US Air Force apparently uses it for their pilot | training [2], and some sort of F-16 simulator seems to exist [3]. | I assume their F-35 simulators are also based on Prepar3D. | | [1] | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Flight_Simulator#Loc... | | [2] https://youtu.be/NMLg7THwhAI?t=164 | | [3] https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed- | martin/r... | anarcticpuffin wrote: | I believe Perpar3D powers the Redbird simulators [1] some of | which are accepted by the FAA as AATDs (Advanced Aviation | Training Device), meaning they can be used for a portion of the | training requirements for the Private Pilots Cerficate (often | called a license), Instrument Rating, etc. I've trained using | one and while they're not perfect, they do save you some money | and time with certain procedures. They're also great for more | accurately simulating subtle systems failures. | | [1] https://simulators.redbirdflight.com/ | TimTheTinker wrote: | I'm pretty sure RedBird is based on X-Plane. I flew one a few | weeks ago and the functionality was very familiar. | stby wrote: | I wouldn't be surprised if they supported both, but the | pictures on their website all show Prepar3D. | billfruit wrote: | Does it have crash/collision physics? | Macha wrote: | No, most modern flight sims refuse to implement them because | they don't want to be branded a 9/11 simulator when someone | would inevitably make a youtube video of them crashing into | buildings. | | Also the ones that use real planes have licensing from | manufacturers to deal with, who don't want their planes | portrayed being destroyed (similar to limited damage modelling | in modern driving games with licensed cars). | | You'll want a combat sim. | choonway wrote: | it's not implemented because it's a lot of work and doesn't | add to training value. | | The time would be better spent on improving damage models | gbraad wrote: | They have flight simulator centers here in Beijing based on | Prepar3d. Very impressive. My kids have flown a Cessna in those | several times to teach them the basics. | tra3 wrote: | I would love to learn about the software development side of the | US military/industrial complex. I read the Pentagon Wars [0] last | year and it was fascinating. Read Skunk Works a while back [1]. | | What I found really interesting about the Pentagon Wars, is how | the incentives don't really parallel what I see in "normal | businesses". I wonder if it's the same for software? | | Is there anything more recent with the focus on software? If not, | I'd love to read more about the design/development/testing of | hardware as well. | | [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon_Wars | | [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skunk_Works#cite_note-16 | anewpersonality wrote: | > I would love to learn about the software development side of | the US military/industrial complex. I read the Pentagon Wars | [0] last year and it was fascinating. Read Skunk Works a while | back [1]. | | Judging by Ghidra, America's Army and BRL-CAD, it's amateur | hour over there. | it_was_cool wrote: | I thought people were generally pleased with Ghidra. Is this | not the case? | jjoonathan wrote: | I am enormously happy that Ghidra exists and usually can be | made to do the job, but it is still quite rough around the | edges. Polished with 10 grit sandpaper, as the saying goes. | jacoblambda wrote: | Ghidra and BRL-CAD are absolutely high quality pieces of | software. They just don't have time put into shiny UI. The UX | isn't really that bad once you learn them though. | | Also BRL-CAD's continued existence really should speak for | it's quality considering it's the one of the oldest VCS | tracked pieces of software and is the oldest public one. It's | leagues ahead of a lot of gov and corporate tooling I've seen | on both sides of the fence. | | But otherwise yes, the mil-industrial complex often leaves | something to be desired with development practices. The money | all goes towards feeding systems engineers, mechs, mats, and | sparkies. Software is usually the last consideration and is | for holding together all the stuff the teams couldn't figure | out how to do without it. | | Things are getting better but it's a slow process and it | almost entirely depends on software engineers sticking around | long enough to get into leadership rather than leaving for | better paying corporate or research jobs. While I'm on my way | out now for a number of reasons, the industry is finally | starting to get good at software practices and where it | absolutely mattered they for a long time have tended to get | it right. | make3 wrote: | are these bad? asking as someone who knows nothing of any of | them | ascagnel_ wrote: | America's Army is one of a few video games the DoD has put | out as recruitment tools. They're a little weird (both | sides always see themselves as US troops, fighting an | unspecified opposing force), but I'm not sure how | successful they've been over the years. | | Another interesting one is what Bohemia Interactive does -- | they develop and commercially release simulation-style | shooters in the ArmA series, and they developed the | original Operation Flashpoint back in the early 00s. But | Bohemia also has a product they sell to armed services | around the globe. It's gotten them in trouble before -- a | few developers were detained in Greece while gathering | reference material for the fictional island of Altis in | Arma 3. | KineticLensman wrote: | > Bohemia Interactive | | They develop Virtual Battlespace which is heavily used by | the UK MOD amongst others. The underlying engine supports | a wide range of tactical simulations and there is a huge | array of available reusable assets (e.g. vehicle meshes, | textures, and behaviour models) that create a good moat | to new market entrants. | jjoonathan wrote: | One time I found a bug that doubled the size of the | America's Army download, back when downloads like this | took a day (* retries) on a typical DSL connection. I | reported it to them so they banned me for hacking (they | banned me from the forums, mind you, not the game) and | didn't fix the issue. Lol. | nullify88 wrote: | I'm not sure how sucessful the games were as a recruiting | tool, but Americas Army 2.x was a well received game. | Pipeline and Bridge brings back some good memories. I | believe theres still an active community for it. | | Its popularity tanked once Americas Army 3 was out. | some_random wrote: | Ghidra is fantastic, it has some issues and is obviously | missing some still-classified components but even still | it's competitive with IDA and Binary Ninja. | [deleted] | derefr wrote: | Are the obvious omissions obvious enough to be able to | name any of them? E.g. are there any languages that would | be expected to have decompilation support, but don't? Or | any static-analysis passes that are clearly relying on | underpowered prebuilt datasets only supplied to make the | pass function in a nominal sense, where there's clearly | some much larger prebuilt dataset used in the classified | version? | [deleted] | nibbleshifter wrote: | A lot of the "type libraries" are missing (you can make | your own). | | Some specific processors are noticeably unsupported (you | can fix this yourself by writing definitions). | | The extensions for analysis of mobile applications and | debugging mobile targets are missing. | | Parts of the debugger are still missing (eg: syncing | debugger with disassembly/decompiler). | | Some features are extremely poorly documented (eg: | importing source code). | | A lot of bits that otherwise seem missing are likely | proprietary scripts and extensions/tools that probably | can't be released due to either being classified or owned | by a defense contractor. | [deleted] | thereddaikon wrote: | You should be warned, Pentagon Wars is mostly fiction and | written by a guy who had a serious bone to pick. He's a member | of a troublesome ground known as the reformers who get an | outsized share of the attention in popular media while being | pariahs in the defense industry. | | Source, I used to work in the defense industry and people like | Burton and Sprey are loathed. | nostrademons wrote: | Such is the nature of any sort of reformer and institution. | You wouldn't be a "reformer" unless you thought the | institution needs to be "reformed". That sets you up in | opposition to everyone inside the institution, who are | presumably _inside_ the institution because they believe in | the goals, processes, and structures of the institution. | thereddaikon wrote: | The reformers actually weren't about reform at all really. | They didn't have new, innovative ideas that were shunned | for being dangerous. | | They were and are luddites who thought warfare hadn't moved | on from the 1950's and investing in new technology and | capabilities was a waste of time. They claimed the M1 | Abrams was less effective than previous tanks such as the | M48 Patton. They though radar and guided missiles were | useless to put on a plane and that the ideal fighter had | more in common with the F-86 than the F-15. While at the | same time claiming credit for designing the F-15 when they | didn't have a thing to do with it. | afterburner wrote: | Having watched Russia completely fail to execute complex | air combat operations in Ukraine of the sort we take | completely for granted from the US, I think maybe you are | underestimating US air combat performance? | | EDIT: Hmm I guess you edited out the part about saying the | US has been losing for 60 years. | nostrademons wrote: | Yeah, I edited it out because I knew discussion would | rathole on whether or not the U.S. military is effective, | while the larger point I'm making is about _institutions_ | (in general) and their ability to change. Russia 's | performance in the Ukraine war is a good example: they | have all the war materials [1], but they suck at waging | war because the institutions are so corrupt that they | suck at waging war [2]. | | [1] https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/03/world/infogra | phic-uk... | | [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9i47sgi-V4 | onepointsixC wrote: | The problem is that the "reformers" were trying to go back | to the previous paradigm. They thought that putting in | expensive electronics and radar into the F-16 was a waste | and that instead it should rely on guns. They loathed the | M-1 Abrams and instead called for a return to the M60's for | which they could buy 3 for every one. They advocated for | effectively a return to WW2 style of things, generally | having a distaste for technological developments which have | since arrived. The Gulf War with America's high tech | superiority completely and utterly refuted their core | thesis and they're basically considered jokes who in their | late years would show up on Russia Today to spout the same | nonsense they previously had against now battle proven | systems but this time about the F-35. | saiya-jin wrote: | Well whistleblowers in banks are loathed too (and pharma, | oil, government etc.), exposing and destroying a very finely | balanced machinery of theft, corruption, bribery, massive | egos, big cocaine/prostitute parties, you name it. | | That doesn't make them any less right, does it. | thereddaikon wrote: | Burton isn't loathed because he was a whistleblower. He is | loathed because he is a liar and was difficult to work | with. | closewith wrote: | Well, if the claims in _Pentagon Wars_ are even half true, | the author would be loathed by the defence industry. | onepointsixC wrote: | The Pentagon Wars' claims are nearly entirely false and | mostly self aggrandizing by Col. Burton. | tra3 wrote: | I did not know that. I thought the book was mostly factual, | as far as these things go. The program he references though, | are real programs. The budgets and overspending were also | correct (where I checked). Do you have a link to any | rebuttals? I will google myself, but if you have something | that you find convincing I'd love to read it. | onepointsixC wrote: | > The budgets and overspending were also correct (where I | checked) | | I haven't read the book, but in the movie, it claims that | the army had spent $14 Bn at the time of the Congressional | Committy on April 24th, 1987 where as it had only spent | $8Bn out of the $12Bn allocated.[1] | | Beyond that simple fact check, sure the programs did exist | but there are numerous other issues. | | The most significant were the subjects of the destructive | tests, in which Col. James Burton insisted on destroying | many fully functioning combat loaded Bradleys by firing | RPG's at them from multiple different angles. The Army | thought it would be worth while to do some tests but not to | the extent which Burton demanded. The Army filled the ammo | shells with sand and the fuel tanks with water as to be | bale to measure damage done to them from sharp metal. That | way you could actually account for the damage done. | | According to the Col, this was a bad faith cover up that | the Bradley wouldn't survive and instead be a flaming | wreck. A Bradley would indeed blow up and be turned into a | flaming pile of melted aluminum from an AT weapon hit, but | that was always known - it wasn't designed to be able to | resist such weapons. Neither did the previous troop carrier | it was replacing. Nor did the Russian equivalents do so | either. | | [1]: Capability of the Bradley fighting vehicle : hearing | before the Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations of | the Committee on Energy and Commerce, House of | Representatives, One hundredth Congress, first session, | April 24, 1987 (EBook version): https://play.google.com/boo | ks/reader?id=6VhyQC11xEAC&pg=GBS.... | thereddaikon wrote: | The Bradley program is real and Burton was briefly | involved. That much is true. The sequence of events and the | actions of the characters in his story are fictional. | | The oft referenced scene from the film where Army Generals | keep sending the designer back to make stupid changes is | completely fictitious. The book and film portray the | Bradley as a victim of design by committee and the whims of | out of touch generals. | | The couldn't be more far from the truth. You see, Burton | thought the Bradley was a replacement for the M113, an | armored personnel carrier. But it wasn't and was never | supposed to be. It was supposed to be an Infantry Fighting | Vehicle. | | This is a class of armored fighting vehicle that the | Soviets introduced with the BMP-1. Instead of being a | battle taxi that would drive the troops to the front and | then leave like an APC, the IFV would stick around and | fight with the troops. Adding more firepower. | | This is a good idea and the US Army wanted one of their | own. They had several successive projects starting in the | 1960's that culminated in the Bradley in the 80's. It was | always meant to have a cannon and ATGMs. It was always | going to carry fewer troops. | viggity wrote: | there is an old made-for-HBO movie called The Pentagon Wars... | I presume it is accurate enough, although it was turned into a | comedy so I'm sure they took some artistic license with it. | Highly recommended. It's available for free on youtube. | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ir0FAa8P2MU | some_random wrote: | Both the movie and the book are complete BS, they're funny | but not accurate reflections of reality. | WrtCdEvrydy wrote: | Yeah, that was a book adaptation. | gamedna wrote: | Am I missing something - what exactly makes this HN worthy? AFAIK | Prepar3d has been around for a long time, and the headline is | from 2021. | theYipster wrote: | When Microsoft shut down the old Flight Simulator development | team and program (FS1 up to FS X, not including the new | MSFS2020,) they licensed the commercial version of the platform | to Lockheed Martin, who took over development and kept it going | as Prepar3D. Lockheed's biggest contribution to the platform over | their years of stewardship was to port the codebase to 64-bit and | to modernize for DirectX 11. | | There is still a very rich library of add-on software for the old | MSFS, including some very detailed simulations of airliners, that | today are flown on Prepar3D. | | Since Lockheed Martin doesn't want to be seen as a video game | company, the $60 license is an "academic license." However, this | is what most people looking simply for a modernized FS X engine | will buy for their home use. | caycep wrote: | How does it compare w/ the new MSFS, or the other big names w/ | commercial "gaming" development efforts behind them, i.e. | Xplane, DCS, etc? | mmaunder wrote: | Those are games that can be used for training. Prepar is a | military and civilian training tool that can be used (against | its license terms) for gaming. It's the only direct to | consumer product that Lockheed has - so it's basically their | military trainer that they've been nice enough to make | available to us. The motivation behind this was probably for | the dev ecosystem it would bring. The non-entertainment term | in the license is a legacy from their deal with MS when they | bought it. | hadlock wrote: | Prepar3d uses the MSFS X engine, so 90%+ of mods/add-ons for | MSFS X/10 work for Prepar3d. | | MSFS X is, like a lot of games, a warmed-over version of a | previous game engine, with improved directx support and | tweaked to run on the latest (at the time) version of | windows. I forget if it has it's roots in MSFS 3.0, 4.0 or | 2002, but it was a pretty old engine in 2006 and has gotten a | few updates over the last decade but is pretty crufty and | when you play it, unless you have $300 of after-market add- | ons, is very obvious it's old, especially compared to x-plane | etc | | As the other guy said, the people still heavily invested and | running the modding scene for a 20 year old video game are... | esoteric. | | Playing MSFS X as a newcomer at this point in time is mostly | to inspect a historical artifact, but it's a very detailed | simulator if you want to take off in a 747 from LAX and fly | it to London or Moscow non-stop. | Macha wrote: | The base game is very very sparse compared to newer offerings | like XPlane or MSFS. | | Due to its long history of development it has some of the | most well received third party aircraft add-ons, but be | warned, these will cost more than the sim itself. | | If you want a video game, you should get the new MSFS. If you | want something more realistic you should get P3D + third | party aircraft for airliners or XPlane for GA aircraft (+ | setup ortho scenery for XPlane), but much of the ecosystem is | slowly releasing MSFS ports too. | | I am a little worried for what will happen to hobbyist flight | sims after MSFS though. A large part of its appeal is the | bing maps powered streaming of good terrain and other map | features, and I suspect Microsoft won't maintain that | forever. If they lose interest for a similar length as | between FSX and Microsoft Flight or between Microsoft Flight | and MSFS, that could be a bad time for the flight sim world | if they've gotten too used to MSFS. | | --- | | If you do get into the P3D third party ecosystem, be warned | that many of the developers are older hobbyists turned devs | which have been in their own universe and so can have weird | ideas from time to time. Like a support system that is a | public forum where you must manually sign your real name at | the end of each post or get banned (PMDG), or uploading the | chrome username/password DB of suspected hackers based on a | check for username (FlightSimLabs). | Jemm wrote: | My hope is that FS2020 will be the basis for many more real | world sims as the technology improves. | | I imagine a ship, train sim would go over quite well. Would | be great if they were all in the same in game session. | | Can also picture tycoon and enterprise type games doing | well here. | | And of course eventually there will be weapons, it is bound | to happen. | Macha wrote: | If you've ever flown really low in MSFS outside the | specially crafted cities like SF you'll see that it's not | really up for a ground level sim level of detail yet. I | guess you could do with street view images what MS has | down with satellite photos, but it's also exponentially | more data. | ahartmetz wrote: | AFAIK the flight model of MSFS has always been trash, it's | a bunch of lookup tables that kind of approximate a real | plane in the most standard situations - there are no real | aerodynamic calculations. MSFS _can_ be used for serious | training in navigation, procedures, cockpit instruments and | such. | bedhead wrote: | Pilot here. The MSFS flight model is so bad that I found | it actually counterproductive. Also, the avionics are | awful, they basically have a dozen of the most basic | functions and that's about it. It's more like a game, not | a sim. And yet, I do find myself using it still. Why? The | graphics are insane. If I'm doing a flight to somewhere | new, I like doing a simulated flight first in order to | get a better understanding of the terrain and more | importantly, layout of the arrival airport and visual | cues. I still find it very useful for flight planning in | that regard. | kqr wrote: | This is how basically every simulator before/other than | X-Plane does it, though. | dharmab wrote: | Most modules for DCS use lookup tables computed in a | similar way to X-Plane. (The lookup tables are | essentially a computational cache of the element | modeling.) | bklaasen wrote: | I recall Flight Unlimited[1] made a big deal of their | flight model which incorporated "real-time computational | fluid dynamics". I'm not a pilot but I found it very | compelling. It was groundbreaking for its time. | | None of the rest of Looking Glass' flight sims used the | first game's fluid dynamics model. | | [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_Unlimited | cjbgkagh wrote: | I'm sure you could make a deep learning model | approximation of the computational fluid dynamics that | would be much computationally efficient. Allowing form | more detail and or faster execution. | meheleventyone wrote: | MSFS is actually improving this though: | https://stormbirds.blog/2022/02/17/msfs-aerodynamics- | takes-a... | ahartmetz wrote: | Can't edit anymore - I was actually thinking of the old | MSFS, pre product cancellation and resurrection. I didn't | know much about the new one except that the graphics are | great. | dotancohen wrote: | > uploading the chrome username/password DB of suspected | hackers | | This sounds like a serious bug in Chrome, not a problem | with a specific website. | Macha wrote: | These addons are effectively desktop software running as | your user, just like Chrome. If Chrome can extract your | saved usernames/passwords, then another program can | replicate that functionality. They could require a master | password and encrypt, but then people would use it less. | They could also push it to a cloud service and only pull | down relevant passwords at usage time, but is that good | for user control of data? | Sohcahtoa82 wrote: | > A large part of its appeal is the bing maps powered | streaming of good terrain and other map features, and I | suspect Microsoft won't maintain that forever. | | There's a mod that makes it use Google Maps instead. In | many places, it is better by leaps and bounds. | jillesvangurp wrote: | X-plane 12 is currently in Alpha and Looks pretty | interesting. I think there's no need to worry about that | going away. MSFS is of course looking pretty good; but in | terms of rendering capabilities, X-plane 12 looks like a | big update as well. | | I think when it comes to simulation fidelity, it still has | a nice edge over the Microsoft ecosystem. Though that did | improve with their latest version. In terms of third party | aircraft, there are interesting products for both | simulators. Probably more for MS; but there are a few nice | ones for X-plane as well. | | P3D seems like it has served its purpose. It was a nice | upgrade before MSFS 2020 became a thing for users stuck in | the MS ecosystem without meaningful updates to their | simulator for a decade or so. Now that they have released | (and given how great it is), there probably still is a | niche market for people with older setups that are happy to | keep on using that; especially those that invested in third | party aircraft. Of course, most relevant aircraft are | probably also available for MSFS 2020 at this point and | possibly in an improved or nicer version. | | Other than that, I don't see any good reasons for new users | to want or need this. Correct me if I'm wrong. | gigatexal wrote: | Not to be used for fun? Aww dang it | criticas wrote: | If you've bought a license, who's going to know? "Developing | Mission Scenarios" is indistinguishable from "Flying the Cessna | under the Golden Gate Bridge". | | The question is more "Is it worth buying a Dev or Academic | license"? | caycep wrote: | It's the new new economy when "Lockheed Martin" features a | YouTuber to promote its commercial military software... | altgans wrote: | "Accurate topography with regionally and culturally appropriate | textures" | | What does that mean? | maxerickson wrote: | Speculating, things like crops and building decorations (if | they have 3d buildings anyway). | KineticLensman wrote: | > culturally appropriate textures | | 'Culture' in the sense of human artefacts (buildings, etc) laid | down on an underlying terrain. Such culture will be specific to | particular regions of the world. | _fat_santa wrote: | I would think things like roofs. If you're flying over Florida, | make it "culturally appropriate" by making the roofs look like | they are made of that tile rather than regular shingles. | | Edit: There's a Florida joke in there somewhere but I'm not | going there. | mmmpop wrote: | That's no fun, especially when I don't really know where | you're trying to go with this one? | buildsjets wrote: | They won't auto-generate thousands of replica KFC restaurants | in rural Mongolia, as they did in Flight Sim 2004. If Google | Image Search worked anymore, I'd link a screenshot. | | https://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/showthread.php?48720-Giant-ch... | Aspos wrote: | Does anyone have experience with its API? I use Microsoft AirSim | for drone simulations, but it lacks fixed-wing aircraft physics. | Having skimmed through Prepar3D SDK docs it is not clear if I can | get images from the engine, not sure if it is possible to control | aircraft from external code. Does anyone know if it is possible? ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-07-11 23:00 UTC)