[HN Gopher] Lockheed Martin Prepar 3D
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Lockheed Martin Prepar 3D
        
       Author : doener
       Score  : 156 points
       Date   : 2022-07-11 13:54 UTC (9 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.prepar3d.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.prepar3d.com)
        
       | adolph wrote:
       | Wht a fascinating EULA stipulation:
       | 
       |  _Prepar3D is not to be used, offered, sold or distributed
       | through markets or channels for use as a personal /consumer
       | entertainment product._
       | 
       | https://www.prepar3d.com/product-overview/prepar3d-license-c...
        
         | Macha wrote:
         | Microsoft sold off the rights to FSX to two parties. Lockheed
         | got the rights to the "professional" version and Dovetail the
         | rights to the "consumer" version. Same starting codebase,
         | Lockheed released Prepar3d and Dovetail the somewhat successful
         | Flight Simulator X Steam Edition and later the unsuccessful
         | Flight Sim World.
         | 
         | I'm sure this is a CYA clause to show they're not stepping on
         | dovetail's license and little else.
        
         | jaywalk wrote:
         | Lockheed Martin just doesn't want to be in the "video game"
         | business. They'll still gladly take your money, though.
        
           | iggldiggl wrote:
           | It might possibly also have been one of the contract
           | stipulations when Microsoft licensed the FSX code to
           | Lockheed.
        
             | kube-system wrote:
             | Its almost an obvious stipulation if you're intending on
             | continuing the franchise.
        
             | jaywalk wrote:
             | Didn't even think about that angle, but it makes a lot of
             | sense.
        
           | joezydeco wrote:
           | Funny thing is... they used to be.
           | 
           | https://segaretro.org/Lockheed_Martin
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real3D
        
       | codethief wrote:
       | From https://prepar3d.com/product-overview/ :
       | 
       | > Prepar3D (pronounced "prepared") is a visual simulation
       | platform that allows users to create training scenarios across
       | aviation, maritime and ground domains. Prepar3D engages users in
       | immersive training through realistic environments.
        
         | m0llusk wrote:
         | For me the site slowed and then returned only database access
         | errors. It seems they were not prepared.
        
       | metadat wrote:
       | Is there a way to run a demo version or otherwise try this out to
       | make sure I want it before buying a full-fledged license?
       | 
       | On a related note-
       | 
       | Recent HN submission covering Geo-FS: a free, web-based, global
       | satellite imagery flight simulator
       | 
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30345760
        
       | armchairhacker wrote:
       | Slightly off-tangent, but i really wish there was a good, freely
       | available, decent-quality dataset of the world surface (like
       | Google Earth but anyone can use it). I obviously don't expect
       | everywhere to be fully mapped but even popular cities like Boston
       | don't have very good models. And it would be _amazing_ to even
       | have models of some of the more rural places.
       | 
       | It would make a great scene for games and animated movies. The
       | world is a beautiful place and seeing places you've been is
       | nostalgic.
        
         | mmaunder wrote:
         | I wonder if the NGIA might release their radar mapping of the
         | Earths surface at some point. Kind of like the mapping
         | databases available from the census dept.
        
         | dewey wrote:
         | It always makes me a bit sad to see how much time, energy and
         | money is wasted on mapping and 3D modelling the same place over
         | and over again and everyone accumulating all this data in their
         | own silos.
         | 
         | Google Maps, OSM, Apple Maps, Bing Maps and all the work that
         | Microsoft Flight Simulator is doing by building 3D models of
         | every airport and city from scratch.
         | 
         | MS at least have a good way of utilizing Bing maps in the game
         | and probably have data flowing both ways in case they improve
         | something but seems like a giant waste of resources.
        
       | tgorgolione wrote:
       | What's interesting about this is that they are using Microsoft's
       | Flight Simulator X's codebase, and I think plugins that work in
       | FSX will work in Prepar3D.
        
         | akpa1 wrote:
         | It's veeeeery hit and miss as to if an FSX add-on will work
         | with P3D. One reason is that FSX is 32-bit only whereas P3D is
         | 64-bit as of v4 - they've changed a lot of stuff.
        
         | mm007emko wrote:
         | Until Prepar3D version 3 it was somewhat true. Since V4 it is
         | 64-bit and it broke the compatibility with most older plug-ins.
        
       | IceHegel wrote:
       | This looks about as good as heavily modded battlefield 1942.
       | That's not saying it's bad sim software, but its look is behind
       | the times.
        
         | ramesh31 wrote:
         | >This looks about as good as heavily modded battlefield 1942.
         | That's not saying it's bad sim software, but its look is behind
         | the times.
         | 
         | It's a modified FSX engine. So yes, about the same vintage as
         | BF1942.
        
         | t0mas88 wrote:
         | It's based on an old version of MS Flight Simulator from around
         | 2009 or 2010 or so.
         | 
         | The graphics aren't any worse than most multi-million dollar
         | full flight simulators used for pilot training. Even better
         | compared to some of the slightly older simulators.
        
           | afterburner wrote:
           | Thing about multi-million dollar full flight simulators used
           | for pilot training is, I doubt they're as concerned about
           | having the latest picture perfect beautiful graphics.
        
             | kqr wrote:
             | This is corroborated by research into training for
             | expertise. Simulations don't need much visual fidelity to
             | be useful. At no point do you need to be fooled into
             | thinking you're doing the real thing.
             | 
             | The important thing is that your mind and hands go through
             | the right motions.
             | 
             | (This is useful knowledge! I have trained system
             | administrators with simulations that basically amount to
             | pen-and-paper role-playing with some screenshots
             | interspersed.)
        
             | t0mas88 wrote:
             | Indeed, in the older ones the graphics for any enroute
             | flying are even completely missing. They'll by default get
             | you into the clouds at 400 or 1000ft above ground level and
             | come out at similar heights on landing. In between the
             | front windows just turn white.
             | 
             | That's fine for learning to fly a 737, by that time it
             | doesn't matter much anymore. But for earlier training it's
             | too easy, because in the real world partial visibility and
             | light effects in clouds cause much more disorientation than
             | zero visibility.
        
       | akie wrote:
       | Google cache:
       | https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:cKimjW...
        
       | johnohara wrote:
       | The Warthog Project on YT is worth mentioning here as an example
       | of what happens when passion meets technology. Been watching
       | since the second vid. Never disappointed. [0]
       | 
       | He uses Digital Combat Simulator (DCS) from Eagle Dynamics SA.
       | They also sell commercial versions of their simulator software.
       | [1]
       | 
       | Getting the terrain right is one thing. Getting the cockpits
       | right is another matter entirely. [2]
       | 
       | [0]
       | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJq3cq9N6xYF0fAvTgpwoBg/vid...
       | [1] https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/ [2]
       | https://www.rferl.org/a/u-s-deports-russian-convicted-of-smu...
        
         | dharmab wrote:
         | Other cool related resources are OpenHornet and /r/HotasDIY
        
       | fffobar wrote:
       | With the successes of F-22/F-35, PAC/Patriot and HIMARS/M270
       | (each is an obvious top of the shelf product in its category) -
       | is Lockheed now going after Boeing's professional flight
       | simulator supremacy?
        
       | joezydeco wrote:
       | Here's a YouTube livestream where someone hooked up Prepar3D to
       | an ADS-B receiver and created a virtual planespotting system at
       | LAX:
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0GrpAgdBFI
        
         | r212 wrote:
         | Thats so cool
        
         | illwrks wrote:
         | That's brilliant! It took me a few minutes to understand what I
         | was looking at... realtime data, hooked into a flight sim, live
         | streamed.
        
           | joezydeco wrote:
           | It seems like there's of potential for synthetic displays
           | like this in other areas or industries - the buzzword du jour
           | being "digital twin" but that's more for simulation, maybe
           | this is more augmented reality? But you need a really solid
           | set of incoming data to make it happen. The openness of ADS-B
           | is the huge advantage here.
        
         | mmaunder wrote:
         | On a related note, Foreflight integrates really well with MSFS
         | and when you combine that with PilotEdge it's a great learning
         | tool. Works with Prepar and X-Plane too.
        
           | t0mas88 wrote:
           | Yes, perfect for IFR and procedure training. The lack of
           | control loading / feedback in home simulators makes it not a
           | great choice for primary training. I've had to teach some
           | simulator enthusiasts in real aircraft for primary training,
           | there is a lot to unlearn. Especially in terms of trimming,
           | fine gained control and looking outside.
           | 
           | But for IFR training if you already know how it fly it's
           | amazing what home sims can do. Add in Navigraph to get up to
           | date data / procedures and Jeppesen charts and you get a
           | better real world representation than some of the certified
           | simulators used in flight training.
        
       | dlojudice wrote:
       | > Prepar3D furthers the development of Microsoft(r) ESP(tm) while
       | maintaining compatibility with Microsoft Flight Simulator X,
       | allowing many thousands of add-ons to be used within Prepar3D.
       | [1]
       | 
       | Interesting. Microsoft ESP? First time I hear about this
       | Microsoft product. Furthermore the simulation is based on
       | Microsoft Flight Simulator X, 2006 software.
       | 
       | [1] https://www.prepar3d.com/product-overview/
        
         | rburhum wrote:
         | I worked on this product for a year back in the day. The cool
         | thing about MS ESP was that we used the FSX Engine for the
         | "1000 foot experience". Everything looked great from far above,
         | but not close by. The solution to this was that MS Train
         | Simulator 2 made tons of improvements for the "1 foot
         | experience". The idea was to include a "world editor" with
         | world-wide geospatial data, too.
         | https://youtu.be/GXzE1Yb54xU?t=406 The physics models of the
         | planes and the trains were great, but obviously to be a generic
         | simulator you needed to include physics engines for other types
         | of objects like Cars. So we grabbed the physics engine of Forza
         | and included it there. These things combined were honestly
         | beautiful - and add to that the backwards compatibility with
         | all the 3rd party FSX plugins/adds ons. Bummer that this is
         | exactly when the iPhone came out and the cloud-based strategies
         | were taking over "classic" enterprise software. Re-org and bye
         | bye FSX/TrainSim2/ESP. I had left before this happened, but was
         | really a bummer not to see the full potential of ESP :-(
        
         | mynameisvlad wrote:
         | ESP seems to be the commercial platform based off Flight
         | Simulator X:
         | 
         | https://news.microsoft.com/2007/11/14/microsoft-esp-debuts-a...
        
         | yodon wrote:
         | ESP was an effort to turn Flight Simulator into a general
         | purpose commercial and military sim. They assembled a great
         | team to do that, then shut it all down in the aftermath of the
         | 2008 crash. Balmer decided some part of Microsoft Game Studios
         | needed to be shut down to save costs and the Flight Sim team
         | had always been an outsider with the weakest political
         | connections into the core of MGS, so even though the ESP
         | business plan was much more sensible than most of the MGS
         | products, it was the piece that ended up getting killed.
        
           | com2kid wrote:
           | > Balmer decided some part of Microsoft Game Studios needed
           | to be shut down to save costs and the Flight Sim team had
           | always been an outsider with the weakest political
           | connections into the core of MGS, so even though the ESP
           | business plan was much more sensible than most of the MGS
           | products, it was the piece that ended up getting killed.
           | 
           | Worse than that.
           | 
           | This was relayed to me by someone who worked on the flight
           | sim team.
           | 
           | So flight sim wasn't actually part of Microsoft game studio,
           | they were in the middle of transitioning over when the shit
           | hit the fan. The head of the organization that they were a
           | part of (I forget what it was called), blocked the transfer
           | so he could keep the flight sim team around as that org's
           | sacrificial lamb to be laid off.
        
       | M3L0NM4N wrote:
       | I play MSFS a lot with realistic add-on planes like the A32NX or
       | the PMDG 737, even though the flight model isn't quite "as good"
       | as XP or P3D, the visual dominance of MSFS adds so much to the
       | immersion for me.
        
         | mm007emko wrote:
         | Well, I honestly put flight modelling over graphics every
         | single day. X-Plane 11 might not be as good as MSFS in terms of
         | graphics but everything else (i.e. the really important things)
         | is.
        
           | cardiffspaceman wrote:
           | There was a "flight simulator" ported from SGI GL to
           | OpenGL+Windows when Microsoft embraced OpenGL. There were a
           | small variety of aircraft in this program. I could take off
           | in the 747, kill the engines and glide to a safe landing.
           | Considering I have no experience whatsoever with real
           | aircraft, that's probably not realistic.
        
           | blt wrote:
           | I heard somewhere it can be counterproductive to learn stick
           | and rudder skills in sim, that sim time is better spent
           | learning how to use instruments, automation, fly complex
           | procedures like DME arc, etc. So maybe the fidelity of
           | aircraft system models (vs aerodynamics) is also really
           | important?
        
             | Macha wrote:
             | There's some amount of the physical feedback you get in a
             | real plane (from resistance in flight controls to actual
             | physical sensation of the movement) is not something you
             | can get without a lot more sophisticated sim setup than
             | most people will have at home and then also as you mention
             | the model of the flight characteristics not matching the
             | real airplane
        
           | M3L0NM4N wrote:
           | For me, I am not a real pilot (yet) and can't really tell the
           | difference in 99% of cases. Also, the fidelity of 3rd party
           | addon planes in MSFS is just as good if not better than in
           | XP.
        
       | stby wrote:
       | I think it should be noted that Prepar3D exists for 12 years now
       | [1] and has been heavily used by flight sim enthusiasts after FSX
       | development was stopped and before MSFS came to the market. It is
       | somewhat unclear were exactly this is used for professional
       | training. The US Air Force apparently uses it for their pilot
       | training [2], and some sort of F-16 simulator seems to exist [3].
       | I assume their F-35 simulators are also based on Prepar3D.
       | 
       | [1]
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Flight_Simulator#Loc...
       | 
       | [2] https://youtu.be/NMLg7THwhAI?t=164
       | 
       | [3] https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-
       | martin/r...
        
         | anarcticpuffin wrote:
         | I believe Perpar3D powers the Redbird simulators [1] some of
         | which are accepted by the FAA as AATDs (Advanced Aviation
         | Training Device), meaning they can be used for a portion of the
         | training requirements for the Private Pilots Cerficate (often
         | called a license), Instrument Rating, etc. I've trained using
         | one and while they're not perfect, they do save you some money
         | and time with certain procedures. They're also great for more
         | accurately simulating subtle systems failures.
         | 
         | [1] https://simulators.redbirdflight.com/
        
           | TimTheTinker wrote:
           | I'm pretty sure RedBird is based on X-Plane. I flew one a few
           | weeks ago and the functionality was very familiar.
        
             | stby wrote:
             | I wouldn't be surprised if they supported both, but the
             | pictures on their website all show Prepar3D.
        
       | billfruit wrote:
       | Does it have crash/collision physics?
        
         | Macha wrote:
         | No, most modern flight sims refuse to implement them because
         | they don't want to be branded a 9/11 simulator when someone
         | would inevitably make a youtube video of them crashing into
         | buildings.
         | 
         | Also the ones that use real planes have licensing from
         | manufacturers to deal with, who don't want their planes
         | portrayed being destroyed (similar to limited damage modelling
         | in modern driving games with licensed cars).
         | 
         | You'll want a combat sim.
        
           | choonway wrote:
           | it's not implemented because it's a lot of work and doesn't
           | add to training value.
           | 
           | The time would be better spent on improving damage models
        
       | gbraad wrote:
       | They have flight simulator centers here in Beijing based on
       | Prepar3d. Very impressive. My kids have flown a Cessna in those
       | several times to teach them the basics.
        
       | tra3 wrote:
       | I would love to learn about the software development side of the
       | US military/industrial complex. I read the Pentagon Wars [0] last
       | year and it was fascinating. Read Skunk Works a while back [1].
       | 
       | What I found really interesting about the Pentagon Wars, is how
       | the incentives don't really parallel what I see in "normal
       | businesses". I wonder if it's the same for software?
       | 
       | Is there anything more recent with the focus on software? If not,
       | I'd love to read more about the design/development/testing of
       | hardware as well.
       | 
       | [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon_Wars
       | 
       | [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skunk_Works#cite_note-16
        
         | anewpersonality wrote:
         | > I would love to learn about the software development side of
         | the US military/industrial complex. I read the Pentagon Wars
         | [0] last year and it was fascinating. Read Skunk Works a while
         | back [1].
         | 
         | Judging by Ghidra, America's Army and BRL-CAD, it's amateur
         | hour over there.
        
           | it_was_cool wrote:
           | I thought people were generally pleased with Ghidra. Is this
           | not the case?
        
             | jjoonathan wrote:
             | I am enormously happy that Ghidra exists and usually can be
             | made to do the job, but it is still quite rough around the
             | edges. Polished with 10 grit sandpaper, as the saying goes.
        
           | jacoblambda wrote:
           | Ghidra and BRL-CAD are absolutely high quality pieces of
           | software. They just don't have time put into shiny UI. The UX
           | isn't really that bad once you learn them though.
           | 
           | Also BRL-CAD's continued existence really should speak for
           | it's quality considering it's the one of the oldest VCS
           | tracked pieces of software and is the oldest public one. It's
           | leagues ahead of a lot of gov and corporate tooling I've seen
           | on both sides of the fence.
           | 
           | But otherwise yes, the mil-industrial complex often leaves
           | something to be desired with development practices. The money
           | all goes towards feeding systems engineers, mechs, mats, and
           | sparkies. Software is usually the last consideration and is
           | for holding together all the stuff the teams couldn't figure
           | out how to do without it.
           | 
           | Things are getting better but it's a slow process and it
           | almost entirely depends on software engineers sticking around
           | long enough to get into leadership rather than leaving for
           | better paying corporate or research jobs. While I'm on my way
           | out now for a number of reasons, the industry is finally
           | starting to get good at software practices and where it
           | absolutely mattered they for a long time have tended to get
           | it right.
        
           | make3 wrote:
           | are these bad? asking as someone who knows nothing of any of
           | them
        
             | ascagnel_ wrote:
             | America's Army is one of a few video games the DoD has put
             | out as recruitment tools. They're a little weird (both
             | sides always see themselves as US troops, fighting an
             | unspecified opposing force), but I'm not sure how
             | successful they've been over the years.
             | 
             | Another interesting one is what Bohemia Interactive does --
             | they develop and commercially release simulation-style
             | shooters in the ArmA series, and they developed the
             | original Operation Flashpoint back in the early 00s. But
             | Bohemia also has a product they sell to armed services
             | around the globe. It's gotten them in trouble before -- a
             | few developers were detained in Greece while gathering
             | reference material for the fictional island of Altis in
             | Arma 3.
        
               | KineticLensman wrote:
               | > Bohemia Interactive
               | 
               | They develop Virtual Battlespace which is heavily used by
               | the UK MOD amongst others. The underlying engine supports
               | a wide range of tactical simulations and there is a huge
               | array of available reusable assets (e.g. vehicle meshes,
               | textures, and behaviour models) that create a good moat
               | to new market entrants.
        
               | jjoonathan wrote:
               | One time I found a bug that doubled the size of the
               | America's Army download, back when downloads like this
               | took a day (* retries) on a typical DSL connection. I
               | reported it to them so they banned me for hacking (they
               | banned me from the forums, mind you, not the game) and
               | didn't fix the issue. Lol.
        
               | nullify88 wrote:
               | I'm not sure how sucessful the games were as a recruiting
               | tool, but Americas Army 2.x was a well received game.
               | Pipeline and Bridge brings back some good memories. I
               | believe theres still an active community for it.
               | 
               | Its popularity tanked once Americas Army 3 was out.
        
             | some_random wrote:
             | Ghidra is fantastic, it has some issues and is obviously
             | missing some still-classified components but even still
             | it's competitive with IDA and Binary Ninja.
        
               | [deleted]
        
               | derefr wrote:
               | Are the obvious omissions obvious enough to be able to
               | name any of them? E.g. are there any languages that would
               | be expected to have decompilation support, but don't? Or
               | any static-analysis passes that are clearly relying on
               | underpowered prebuilt datasets only supplied to make the
               | pass function in a nominal sense, where there's clearly
               | some much larger prebuilt dataset used in the classified
               | version?
        
               | [deleted]
        
               | nibbleshifter wrote:
               | A lot of the "type libraries" are missing (you can make
               | your own).
               | 
               | Some specific processors are noticeably unsupported (you
               | can fix this yourself by writing definitions).
               | 
               | The extensions for analysis of mobile applications and
               | debugging mobile targets are missing.
               | 
               | Parts of the debugger are still missing (eg: syncing
               | debugger with disassembly/decompiler).
               | 
               | Some features are extremely poorly documented (eg:
               | importing source code).
               | 
               | A lot of bits that otherwise seem missing are likely
               | proprietary scripts and extensions/tools that probably
               | can't be released due to either being classified or owned
               | by a defense contractor.
        
           | [deleted]
        
         | thereddaikon wrote:
         | You should be warned, Pentagon Wars is mostly fiction and
         | written by a guy who had a serious bone to pick. He's a member
         | of a troublesome ground known as the reformers who get an
         | outsized share of the attention in popular media while being
         | pariahs in the defense industry.
         | 
         | Source, I used to work in the defense industry and people like
         | Burton and Sprey are loathed.
        
           | nostrademons wrote:
           | Such is the nature of any sort of reformer and institution.
           | You wouldn't be a "reformer" unless you thought the
           | institution needs to be "reformed". That sets you up in
           | opposition to everyone inside the institution, who are
           | presumably _inside_ the institution because they believe in
           | the goals, processes, and structures of the institution.
        
             | thereddaikon wrote:
             | The reformers actually weren't about reform at all really.
             | They didn't have new, innovative ideas that were shunned
             | for being dangerous.
             | 
             | They were and are luddites who thought warfare hadn't moved
             | on from the 1950's and investing in new technology and
             | capabilities was a waste of time. They claimed the M1
             | Abrams was less effective than previous tanks such as the
             | M48 Patton. They though radar and guided missiles were
             | useless to put on a plane and that the ideal fighter had
             | more in common with the F-86 than the F-15. While at the
             | same time claiming credit for designing the F-15 when they
             | didn't have a thing to do with it.
        
             | afterburner wrote:
             | Having watched Russia completely fail to execute complex
             | air combat operations in Ukraine of the sort we take
             | completely for granted from the US, I think maybe you are
             | underestimating US air combat performance?
             | 
             | EDIT: Hmm I guess you edited out the part about saying the
             | US has been losing for 60 years.
        
               | nostrademons wrote:
               | Yeah, I edited it out because I knew discussion would
               | rathole on whether or not the U.S. military is effective,
               | while the larger point I'm making is about _institutions_
               | (in general) and their ability to change. Russia 's
               | performance in the Ukraine war is a good example: they
               | have all the war materials [1], but they suck at waging
               | war because the institutions are so corrupt that they
               | suck at waging war [2].
               | 
               | [1] https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/03/world/infogra
               | phic-uk...
               | 
               | [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9i47sgi-V4
        
             | onepointsixC wrote:
             | The problem is that the "reformers" were trying to go back
             | to the previous paradigm. They thought that putting in
             | expensive electronics and radar into the F-16 was a waste
             | and that instead it should rely on guns. They loathed the
             | M-1 Abrams and instead called for a return to the M60's for
             | which they could buy 3 for every one. They advocated for
             | effectively a return to WW2 style of things, generally
             | having a distaste for technological developments which have
             | since arrived. The Gulf War with America's high tech
             | superiority completely and utterly refuted their core
             | thesis and they're basically considered jokes who in their
             | late years would show up on Russia Today to spout the same
             | nonsense they previously had against now battle proven
             | systems but this time about the F-35.
        
           | saiya-jin wrote:
           | Well whistleblowers in banks are loathed too (and pharma,
           | oil, government etc.), exposing and destroying a very finely
           | balanced machinery of theft, corruption, bribery, massive
           | egos, big cocaine/prostitute parties, you name it.
           | 
           | That doesn't make them any less right, does it.
        
             | thereddaikon wrote:
             | Burton isn't loathed because he was a whistleblower. He is
             | loathed because he is a liar and was difficult to work
             | with.
        
           | closewith wrote:
           | Well, if the claims in _Pentagon Wars_ are even half true,
           | the author would be loathed by the defence industry.
        
             | onepointsixC wrote:
             | The Pentagon Wars' claims are nearly entirely false and
             | mostly self aggrandizing by Col. Burton.
        
           | tra3 wrote:
           | I did not know that. I thought the book was mostly factual,
           | as far as these things go. The program he references though,
           | are real programs. The budgets and overspending were also
           | correct (where I checked). Do you have a link to any
           | rebuttals? I will google myself, but if you have something
           | that you find convincing I'd love to read it.
        
             | onepointsixC wrote:
             | > The budgets and overspending were also correct (where I
             | checked)
             | 
             | I haven't read the book, but in the movie, it claims that
             | the army had spent $14 Bn at the time of the Congressional
             | Committy on April 24th, 1987 where as it had only spent
             | $8Bn out of the $12Bn allocated.[1]
             | 
             | Beyond that simple fact check, sure the programs did exist
             | but there are numerous other issues.
             | 
             | The most significant were the subjects of the destructive
             | tests, in which Col. James Burton insisted on destroying
             | many fully functioning combat loaded Bradleys by firing
             | RPG's at them from multiple different angles. The Army
             | thought it would be worth while to do some tests but not to
             | the extent which Burton demanded. The Army filled the ammo
             | shells with sand and the fuel tanks with water as to be
             | bale to measure damage done to them from sharp metal. That
             | way you could actually account for the damage done.
             | 
             | According to the Col, this was a bad faith cover up that
             | the Bradley wouldn't survive and instead be a flaming
             | wreck. A Bradley would indeed blow up and be turned into a
             | flaming pile of melted aluminum from an AT weapon hit, but
             | that was always known - it wasn't designed to be able to
             | resist such weapons. Neither did the previous troop carrier
             | it was replacing. Nor did the Russian equivalents do so
             | either.
             | 
             | [1]: Capability of the Bradley fighting vehicle : hearing
             | before the Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations of
             | the Committee on Energy and Commerce, House of
             | Representatives, One hundredth Congress, first session,
             | April 24, 1987 (EBook version): https://play.google.com/boo
             | ks/reader?id=6VhyQC11xEAC&pg=GBS....
        
             | thereddaikon wrote:
             | The Bradley program is real and Burton was briefly
             | involved. That much is true. The sequence of events and the
             | actions of the characters in his story are fictional.
             | 
             | The oft referenced scene from the film where Army Generals
             | keep sending the designer back to make stupid changes is
             | completely fictitious. The book and film portray the
             | Bradley as a victim of design by committee and the whims of
             | out of touch generals.
             | 
             | The couldn't be more far from the truth. You see, Burton
             | thought the Bradley was a replacement for the M113, an
             | armored personnel carrier. But it wasn't and was never
             | supposed to be. It was supposed to be an Infantry Fighting
             | Vehicle.
             | 
             | This is a class of armored fighting vehicle that the
             | Soviets introduced with the BMP-1. Instead of being a
             | battle taxi that would drive the troops to the front and
             | then leave like an APC, the IFV would stick around and
             | fight with the troops. Adding more firepower.
             | 
             | This is a good idea and the US Army wanted one of their
             | own. They had several successive projects starting in the
             | 1960's that culminated in the Bradley in the 80's. It was
             | always meant to have a cannon and ATGMs. It was always
             | going to carry fewer troops.
        
         | viggity wrote:
         | there is an old made-for-HBO movie called The Pentagon Wars...
         | I presume it is accurate enough, although it was turned into a
         | comedy so I'm sure they took some artistic license with it.
         | Highly recommended. It's available for free on youtube.
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ir0FAa8P2MU
        
           | some_random wrote:
           | Both the movie and the book are complete BS, they're funny
           | but not accurate reflections of reality.
        
           | WrtCdEvrydy wrote:
           | Yeah, that was a book adaptation.
        
       | gamedna wrote:
       | Am I missing something - what exactly makes this HN worthy? AFAIK
       | Prepar3d has been around for a long time, and the headline is
       | from 2021.
        
       | theYipster wrote:
       | When Microsoft shut down the old Flight Simulator development
       | team and program (FS1 up to FS X, not including the new
       | MSFS2020,) they licensed the commercial version of the platform
       | to Lockheed Martin, who took over development and kept it going
       | as Prepar3D. Lockheed's biggest contribution to the platform over
       | their years of stewardship was to port the codebase to 64-bit and
       | to modernize for DirectX 11.
       | 
       | There is still a very rich library of add-on software for the old
       | MSFS, including some very detailed simulations of airliners, that
       | today are flown on Prepar3D.
       | 
       | Since Lockheed Martin doesn't want to be seen as a video game
       | company, the $60 license is an "academic license." However, this
       | is what most people looking simply for a modernized FS X engine
       | will buy for their home use.
        
         | caycep wrote:
         | How does it compare w/ the new MSFS, or the other big names w/
         | commercial "gaming" development efforts behind them, i.e.
         | Xplane, DCS, etc?
        
           | mmaunder wrote:
           | Those are games that can be used for training. Prepar is a
           | military and civilian training tool that can be used (against
           | its license terms) for gaming. It's the only direct to
           | consumer product that Lockheed has - so it's basically their
           | military trainer that they've been nice enough to make
           | available to us. The motivation behind this was probably for
           | the dev ecosystem it would bring. The non-entertainment term
           | in the license is a legacy from their deal with MS when they
           | bought it.
        
           | hadlock wrote:
           | Prepar3d uses the MSFS X engine, so 90%+ of mods/add-ons for
           | MSFS X/10 work for Prepar3d.
           | 
           | MSFS X is, like a lot of games, a warmed-over version of a
           | previous game engine, with improved directx support and
           | tweaked to run on the latest (at the time) version of
           | windows. I forget if it has it's roots in MSFS 3.0, 4.0 or
           | 2002, but it was a pretty old engine in 2006 and has gotten a
           | few updates over the last decade but is pretty crufty and
           | when you play it, unless you have $300 of after-market add-
           | ons, is very obvious it's old, especially compared to x-plane
           | etc
           | 
           | As the other guy said, the people still heavily invested and
           | running the modding scene for a 20 year old video game are...
           | esoteric.
           | 
           | Playing MSFS X as a newcomer at this point in time is mostly
           | to inspect a historical artifact, but it's a very detailed
           | simulator if you want to take off in a 747 from LAX and fly
           | it to London or Moscow non-stop.
        
           | Macha wrote:
           | The base game is very very sparse compared to newer offerings
           | like XPlane or MSFS.
           | 
           | Due to its long history of development it has some of the
           | most well received third party aircraft add-ons, but be
           | warned, these will cost more than the sim itself.
           | 
           | If you want a video game, you should get the new MSFS. If you
           | want something more realistic you should get P3D + third
           | party aircraft for airliners or XPlane for GA aircraft (+
           | setup ortho scenery for XPlane), but much of the ecosystem is
           | slowly releasing MSFS ports too.
           | 
           | I am a little worried for what will happen to hobbyist flight
           | sims after MSFS though. A large part of its appeal is the
           | bing maps powered streaming of good terrain and other map
           | features, and I suspect Microsoft won't maintain that
           | forever. If they lose interest for a similar length as
           | between FSX and Microsoft Flight or between Microsoft Flight
           | and MSFS, that could be a bad time for the flight sim world
           | if they've gotten too used to MSFS.
           | 
           | ---
           | 
           | If you do get into the P3D third party ecosystem, be warned
           | that many of the developers are older hobbyists turned devs
           | which have been in their own universe and so can have weird
           | ideas from time to time. Like a support system that is a
           | public forum where you must manually sign your real name at
           | the end of each post or get banned (PMDG), or uploading the
           | chrome username/password DB of suspected hackers based on a
           | check for username (FlightSimLabs).
        
             | Jemm wrote:
             | My hope is that FS2020 will be the basis for many more real
             | world sims as the technology improves.
             | 
             | I imagine a ship, train sim would go over quite well. Would
             | be great if they were all in the same in game session.
             | 
             | Can also picture tycoon and enterprise type games doing
             | well here.
             | 
             | And of course eventually there will be weapons, it is bound
             | to happen.
        
               | Macha wrote:
               | If you've ever flown really low in MSFS outside the
               | specially crafted cities like SF you'll see that it's not
               | really up for a ground level sim level of detail yet. I
               | guess you could do with street view images what MS has
               | down with satellite photos, but it's also exponentially
               | more data.
        
             | ahartmetz wrote:
             | AFAIK the flight model of MSFS has always been trash, it's
             | a bunch of lookup tables that kind of approximate a real
             | plane in the most standard situations - there are no real
             | aerodynamic calculations. MSFS _can_ be used for serious
             | training in navigation, procedures, cockpit instruments and
             | such.
        
               | bedhead wrote:
               | Pilot here. The MSFS flight model is so bad that I found
               | it actually counterproductive. Also, the avionics are
               | awful, they basically have a dozen of the most basic
               | functions and that's about it. It's more like a game, not
               | a sim. And yet, I do find myself using it still. Why? The
               | graphics are insane. If I'm doing a flight to somewhere
               | new, I like doing a simulated flight first in order to
               | get a better understanding of the terrain and more
               | importantly, layout of the arrival airport and visual
               | cues. I still find it very useful for flight planning in
               | that regard.
        
               | kqr wrote:
               | This is how basically every simulator before/other than
               | X-Plane does it, though.
        
               | dharmab wrote:
               | Most modules for DCS use lookup tables computed in a
               | similar way to X-Plane. (The lookup tables are
               | essentially a computational cache of the element
               | modeling.)
        
               | bklaasen wrote:
               | I recall Flight Unlimited[1] made a big deal of their
               | flight model which incorporated "real-time computational
               | fluid dynamics". I'm not a pilot but I found it very
               | compelling. It was groundbreaking for its time.
               | 
               | None of the rest of Looking Glass' flight sims used the
               | first game's fluid dynamics model.
               | 
               | [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_Unlimited
        
               | cjbgkagh wrote:
               | I'm sure you could make a deep learning model
               | approximation of the computational fluid dynamics that
               | would be much computationally efficient. Allowing form
               | more detail and or faster execution.
        
               | meheleventyone wrote:
               | MSFS is actually improving this though:
               | https://stormbirds.blog/2022/02/17/msfs-aerodynamics-
               | takes-a...
        
               | ahartmetz wrote:
               | Can't edit anymore - I was actually thinking of the old
               | MSFS, pre product cancellation and resurrection. I didn't
               | know much about the new one except that the graphics are
               | great.
        
             | dotancohen wrote:
             | > uploading the chrome username/password DB of suspected
             | hackers
             | 
             | This sounds like a serious bug in Chrome, not a problem
             | with a specific website.
        
               | Macha wrote:
               | These addons are effectively desktop software running as
               | your user, just like Chrome. If Chrome can extract your
               | saved usernames/passwords, then another program can
               | replicate that functionality. They could require a master
               | password and encrypt, but then people would use it less.
               | They could also push it to a cloud service and only pull
               | down relevant passwords at usage time, but is that good
               | for user control of data?
        
             | Sohcahtoa82 wrote:
             | > A large part of its appeal is the bing maps powered
             | streaming of good terrain and other map features, and I
             | suspect Microsoft won't maintain that forever.
             | 
             | There's a mod that makes it use Google Maps instead. In
             | many places, it is better by leaps and bounds.
        
             | jillesvangurp wrote:
             | X-plane 12 is currently in Alpha and Looks pretty
             | interesting. I think there's no need to worry about that
             | going away. MSFS is of course looking pretty good; but in
             | terms of rendering capabilities, X-plane 12 looks like a
             | big update as well.
             | 
             | I think when it comes to simulation fidelity, it still has
             | a nice edge over the Microsoft ecosystem. Though that did
             | improve with their latest version. In terms of third party
             | aircraft, there are interesting products for both
             | simulators. Probably more for MS; but there are a few nice
             | ones for X-plane as well.
             | 
             | P3D seems like it has served its purpose. It was a nice
             | upgrade before MSFS 2020 became a thing for users stuck in
             | the MS ecosystem without meaningful updates to their
             | simulator for a decade or so. Now that they have released
             | (and given how great it is), there probably still is a
             | niche market for people with older setups that are happy to
             | keep on using that; especially those that invested in third
             | party aircraft. Of course, most relevant aircraft are
             | probably also available for MSFS 2020 at this point and
             | possibly in an improved or nicer version.
             | 
             | Other than that, I don't see any good reasons for new users
             | to want or need this. Correct me if I'm wrong.
        
       | gigatexal wrote:
       | Not to be used for fun? Aww dang it
        
         | criticas wrote:
         | If you've bought a license, who's going to know? "Developing
         | Mission Scenarios" is indistinguishable from "Flying the Cessna
         | under the Golden Gate Bridge".
         | 
         | The question is more "Is it worth buying a Dev or Academic
         | license"?
        
       | caycep wrote:
       | It's the new new economy when "Lockheed Martin" features a
       | YouTuber to promote its commercial military software...
        
       | altgans wrote:
       | "Accurate topography with regionally and culturally appropriate
       | textures"
       | 
       | What does that mean?
        
         | maxerickson wrote:
         | Speculating, things like crops and building decorations (if
         | they have 3d buildings anyway).
        
         | KineticLensman wrote:
         | > culturally appropriate textures
         | 
         | 'Culture' in the sense of human artefacts (buildings, etc) laid
         | down on an underlying terrain. Such culture will be specific to
         | particular regions of the world.
        
         | _fat_santa wrote:
         | I would think things like roofs. If you're flying over Florida,
         | make it "culturally appropriate" by making the roofs look like
         | they are made of that tile rather than regular shingles.
         | 
         | Edit: There's a Florida joke in there somewhere but I'm not
         | going there.
        
           | mmmpop wrote:
           | That's no fun, especially when I don't really know where
           | you're trying to go with this one?
        
         | buildsjets wrote:
         | They won't auto-generate thousands of replica KFC restaurants
         | in rural Mongolia, as they did in Flight Sim 2004. If Google
         | Image Search worked anymore, I'd link a screenshot.
         | 
         | https://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/showthread.php?48720-Giant-ch...
        
       | Aspos wrote:
       | Does anyone have experience with its API? I use Microsoft AirSim
       | for drone simulations, but it lacks fixed-wing aircraft physics.
       | Having skimmed through Prepar3D SDK docs it is not clear if I can
       | get images from the engine, not sure if it is possible to control
       | aircraft from external code. Does anyone know if it is possible?
        
       ___________________________________________________________________
       (page generated 2022-07-11 23:00 UTC)