[HN Gopher] Show HN: I built an app for when I talk too much in ... ___________________________________________________________________ Show HN: I built an app for when I talk too much in online meetings Hey HN! Alexis here, I'm a product manager and software developer in Berlin by way of New York. I want to show you this app I made - It's like a "buddy" for those, like myself, who inadvertedly talk too much in meetings. The app gives me feedback and a little more in control of what I have influence over by: * Keeping track of how long I've been speaking * Catching myself before I talk too much * Developing a better sense of timing I truly love having conversations with people in real-life. But online meetings, especially group calls, tend to make me nervous. I can't read body language. The tone of voice, micro-experessions and social cues get lost. If you, too, accidentally talk too much too often, check it out "Unblah". Watch the quick 2-minute demo and download the macOS app over at https://unblah.me/. Cheers! Alexis PS: There's a whole FAQ section for common questions you may have - Including if this is yet another "native" Electron app ;) edit: bullet-list formatting Author : interleave Score : 275 points Date : 2022-07-14 13:09 UTC (9 hours ago) (HTM) web link (unblah.me) (TXT) w3m dump (unblah.me) | litttle_b wrote: | I especially appreciate seeing this kind of tool + level of self | awareness, as a woman working in tech. | | For everyone here who's asking how to get their coworkers using | something like this, there's a similar feature in Sesh (web app | https://sesh.com/ and zoom app | https://marketplace.zoom.us/apps/lmZj36WWSJut8-hAaUJrhQ ) that | gives everyone equal opportunities to speak (and plays you off | oscars-style when you go too long), and another feature called | "talk time" that shows how long each person spent talking at the | end of each meeting. | | At it's core, it's a really useful meeting agenda app, so sharing | it is less "hey you talk too much" and more "let's make our | meetings better and more equitable". | | I work there & am happy to demo or answer any questions about it | :) | | Again, really love that you made a version of this that | individuals can spin up for their own accountability without the | need for whole-team buy in. The design is great too! | [deleted] | tetraca wrote: | > that gives everyone equal opportunities to speak (and plays | you off oscars-style when you go too long), and another feature | called "talk time" that shows how long each person spent | talking at the end of each meeting. | | As someone who'd rather not speak I dislike this. Now I can't | just sit back, relax, and let the talkative people run out the | clock. There's now a metric to punish my quietness. :P | gardenhedge wrote: | Yeah, not everyone has to talk in every meeting. Sometimes | people will be taking in info and need time to absorb it. | mulmen wrote: | Do you mind elaborating on why this is especially important to | you as a woman in tech? | akhmatova wrote: | Because it has been observed that if someone is talking too | much at a meeting (and especially if they're talking about | nothingburgers) -- usually it's a dude (at a rate | disproportionate to their prevalence within the group). | litttle_b wrote: | I'm going to do a bit of "show, don't tell" here, because if | you're asking this I'm assuming you're open to learning more | about the sexism and bias that typically cause men to | dominate conversations in tech/workplaces: | | https://www.indy100.com/news/victorias-secret-model- | lyndsey-... | | https://www.fastcompany.com/40456604/these-women- | entrepreneu... | | https://hbr.org/1995/09/the-power-of-talk-who-gets-heard- | and... | | https://janicetomich.com/women-speaking-while-female/ | | https://time.com/3666135/sheryl-sandberg-talking-while- | femal... | wincy wrote: | Jo Jorgensen, who ended up being the Libertarian | presidential candidate in 2020, was accused of being given | more time and more opportunities to speak by another | candidate during the libertarian party debates. | | It was hilarious when he was told by the moderator that no, | Jo had used the least time. She'd make a good point, then | stop talking. No bloviating like the men. | actfrench wrote: | As another woman in tech, I thank you for your effort | putting together these resources. | | Hopefully it will raise awareness and those men who support | equality in the workplace and more importantly, see the | value of women's ideas - ideas that they perhaps do not | hear because they are not giving time for them to speak | them- will benefit. | peoplefromibiza wrote: | Honestly this list is of dubious general value | | As a long timer man in tech, being a shy and private person | and being uncomfortable speaking in public, I've | experienced the same exact things listed in those articles | for as long as I can remember, except having to fake a | business partner cause I've never participated in a round | of funding, but I'd probably hire one if I needed to. | Because it would work better than sending myself. | | I've learned that those aren't my strongest skills and | that's OK, I've become a very good writer instead, because | it's something I like and I feel comfortable doing. to the | point that people now ask me to help them or plainly ask me | if they can pay me to write for them (notice that if you | think my writing is mediocre it's because it's true: | English is not my native language and foreign languages are | another of those "not my strongest skills", I'm much better | with programming languages) | | Sometimes things are as they are because we are as we are. | | I also think there's a cultural aspect to the phenomenon, | in some countries, especially in USA, people are pressured | to talk in public and express "dominance" or "confidence" | by taking the stand. | | Fake until you make it they usually say. | | In my case it only made me feel more of an impostor, who | was faking skills he did not have. | gardenhedge wrote: | What are you trying to show with the first link? It doesn't | seem to link into men dominating conversations in the | workplace. | mulmen wrote: | Thanks for sharing. I'm aware of talking over people and | the dimensions on which it biases. I ask to uncover | "unknown unknowns" of some other (unknown to me) behavior | that might also need to be addressed. | | To be more specific, I am also afraid of over-indexing on | inclusion. Do I call on female coworkers more often to | speak up in areas where I know they are experts because I | know they may not do so themselves? Is that fair to them? | Does it make them feel inadequate or is it appreciated or | does it not even register? If I ask Susan to elaborate on a | sprint update but don't ask Frank does that signal that I | don't trust Susan? What if I am really just interested in | her task? | | I know the cliches about confident white men in tech. | Talking over people, the white savior, etc. But, as a | confident white man in tech I need input from everyone to | be better. So, thanks for sharing. | spdustin wrote: | I'm not a female, but work for a women-owned tech company | with a predominantly female staff, and I don't speak for | women when I say this: yes, in my experience, you should | call on female coworkers to share their opinions or | insights. It's fair, and often appreciated, but _don't do | it expecting gratitude_. Do it because you know their | input matters. | | Many--not all--women have had it ingrained in them since | childhood to defer to men, especially men in authority. | If it's appropriate, don't make it an imperative | statement like, "Susan, tell us your thoughts." Respect | their agency, and ask, "Susan, is there anything you'd | like to add" or "do you have an update to share on your | task?" This applies to your male co-workers too, of | course. Because, at the end of the day, none of this is | about you. It's about what's best for the team, right? | | Knowing when to step up and when to step back and elevate | others is one of the hardest things to learn about being | a leader. But fostering a culture of open curiosity and | collaboration is the best antidote to a culture of quiet | resentment because someone feels ignored or left out. | | Not to mention the loss of productivity that imposter | syndrome can cause...but that's a whole different thread. | | Anyway, just my experience on the matter. I personally | think it's important to help men understand how their | view of team dynamics may be exclusionary to women. I'm | not speaking on behalf of women at all. If there's any | question about how to best include any specific person in | your organization, there's an easy way to get that | question answered: ask them. | Wohlf wrote: | I think this is a really good practice in general! It | would help people (like my younger self) who might be | afraid to speak up or interrupt regardless of gender. | lawrencevillain wrote: | How can I share this with a coworker without being rude haha? | interleave wrote: | Totally understand. It's the most common question I've gotten | for those who themselves experience 'the blah' by someone else. | | I published an FAQ (https://unblah.me/#faqs) earlier today. | Posting it here for simplicity: | | --- | | Question: I have this person on my team who talks WAY too much | and never notices it. They LOVE hearing themselves talk and | never shut up. Should I tell them to get this app? | | --- | | Answer: First off... I believe your struggle with this person | is 100% real. I fully believe their behavior is affecting you | negatively. | | But, my answer is a STRONG NO. Please don't use Unblah as a | proxy for a difficult conversation that sounds like it needs to | be had. | | Think about it: They would never use it anyways, because, as | you're saying yourself "...and never even notice it.". | | They don't have a problem. | | You do. | | I don't know how much rapport you two have, how much safe space | you can create for resolving this situation, etc. | | So, to keep everyone safe, please check with HR or leadership | on how to best deal with this situation if it impacts you, your | team and your performance. | | For learning more on this kind of topic, I can recommend | "Difficult Conversations: How to Discuss What Matters Most" by | Bruce Patton, Douglas Stone, and Sheila Heen. | frogpelt wrote: | This sounds like a possible next step for your app: "unblah" | for teams. | interleave wrote: | Yes, has been on my radar for exactly that reason. I want | to believe there is a wetware solution in there somewhere | :) | interleave wrote: | And: You can always lead by example! | spdustin wrote: | I love apps like this, but every time I see one I lament that | Zoom doesn't provide audio streams in distinct channels. Every | "conversational intelligence" Zoom app seems to be forced to use | speaker segmentation to identify who's talking. I wish they had | the voice version of "Jane is typing..." like text chat | applications. | | Edit: I recognize those apps are different from yours, which is | local-only, and just monitors whether YOU are speaking without | plotting others' speaking time. | waynesonfire wrote: | You don't need an app, you just need to shut your mouth. | appletrotter wrote: | You don't need crutches, you just need to walk. | eccobay wrote: | This type of analytics will make online meetings better in the | long term, in the same way fitbit measured steps to quantify are | you walking enough. | | A recent study (Q122) from Read highlighted | (https://www.read.ai/benchmarks) that 28% of meetings have | unbalanced participation and that 11% of participants in a | meeting are in "ghost mode", no camera, no audio. The more | measurement, the more opportunity for individuals and teams to | improve. | d3sandoval wrote: | I'm going to use this for user interviews since I have a hard | time talking too much during the introduction. Also, stand-ups... | interleave wrote: | Hope it helps you, ping me if you need anything. | | PS: The "introductions" are my personal Kryptonite. | heisenbit wrote: | Please release it on iOS as it can be more widely used and there | is really a need for it. | twald wrote: | Thanks for sharing! Do you plan to add this to the menu bar in | the future? | interleave wrote: | Hey there, you're very welcome. | | I hadn't thought of the menu bar yet. How would you want that | to work? | sent-hil wrote: | Second that for a menu bar. Something to quickly glance up to | see if I'm talking too much. PS, just downloaded, looks | promising! Will try it and let you know. | interleave wrote: | Cool, thanks for giving it a spin, too! | | If there are any issues with the installation/set up, please | let me know. Happy to jump on a call as well (See the contact | button on the site) | blackdogie wrote: | Love this idea. I also thing there is a great use case here for | people in sales, customer support / onboarding. Listening as a | skill is very important for roles like this, and anything that | can help people be a bit more conscious about this is great. | | A top bar icon for this could also be useful, so not to take up | too my screen real estate, e.g. for example if you are giving a | sales demo, you may want to hide the application, but still see | visually how you are doing. | alexcnwy wrote: | Would definitely use this if it was a menu widget | dskloet wrote: | I don't understand how it can know if you talk too much. 30 | seconds can be too much if you don't have anything relevant to | say but 30 minutes can be fine if you have a lot of important | things to say. Does it transcribe what you say and match on bad | patterns or something? | youssefabdelm wrote: | I couldn't agree more with this. If one were to truly solve | this problem they'd have to do several things: | | 1. Understand who the listener is, and what they care about. | What are their reinforcers, and attractors? What are the things | they want to achieve that they haven't been able to so far. | What is relevant information for them? What is their state of | mind? Are they tired? Do they need to sleep, eat, go to the | bathroom? | | 2. Understand the information content of the speech. A person | can say a lot in a little time or a little in a lot of time | (with the dependencies being questions listed above in #1. What | is a 'little' for someone might be 'a lot' for someone else | depending on how much they know). | | My concern with an app like this is multi-fold. Firstly, I have | some very smart friends who read a lot and talk for hours but I | never tire of it because they're always saying something new | and interesting. Secondly, sometimes these friends are working | out thoughts on the fly that they haven't before. Stopping | before the thought is complete risks losing hidden gems, | maxims/aphorisms, well-articulated and profound | crystallizations of thought. A ticking time-bomb clock adds | pressure to end this line of thought that may need time to | manifest itself fully. | | That being said I totally see the flip side, that it can go on | for too long, but I'd point back to all the concerns in #1. | spdustin wrote: | If you have thirty uninterrupted minutes of things to say, is | that a meeting? Or is it a lecture/presentation? Is it better | to break it up into discrete topics? | | Attendees of a meeting will quickly disengage if someone talks | for too long. Attendees of a lecture or presentation have | different expectations. | dskloet wrote: | Ok, but regardless "too much" heavily depends on context. It | can't be that x minutes is the correct amount of time to talk | regardless of what you are saying. | interleave wrote: | > If you have thirty uninterrupted minutes of things to say, | is that a meeting? Or is it a lecture/presentation? Is it | better to break it up into discrete topics? | | That's the key question that will frame how I schedule my | attention and interjections. | | The reason I chose the times as seen is because they jive | with my personal experience and the content of this article | here: https://hbr.org/2015/06/how-to-know-if-you-talk-too- | much | reggieband wrote: | I love this idea and I could see myself using it in 1:1 meetings | with my direct reports. | | One of the advantages of getting older is the experience one | gains. It is often the case that I can relate a current situation | to one that has occurred in my past. This can help me make good | decisions by anticipating expected similar outcomes to the most | obvious approaches. | | Yet the other side of this is I can find myself droning on about | old war stories to junior engineers. What I mean to be well- | intentioned advice can turn into a monologue. This is especially | true when I am giving advice "off-the-cuff" in response to | situations brought up in 1:1 meetings with direct reports. I | might struggle finding the best way to communicate my experience. | This can cause me to rephrase the same idea several different | ways in an attempt to clearly convey my thought. | | I feel this kind of tool could help me focus more on listening to | the people I manage. | interleave wrote: | > Yet the other side of this is I can find myself droning on | about old war stories to junior engineers. | | Middle-aged here - I've been in that situation as well. | | > What I mean to be well-intentioned advice can turn into a | monologue. | | +1 - So well-intended ("So they don't make my stupid mistakes") | but hard to really take in. | | > I feel this kind of tool could help me focus more on | listening to the people I manage. | | Please, if you do, let me know if it helps. | | Also, if those are personal 1:1 you could always just call it | out and ask them to give you live feedback tech-free (?) | dingleberry420 wrote: | gnicholas wrote: | It's a Show HN, which means it's the first version. There is no | reason to expect it won't be on other platforms later. | Tempest1981 wrote: | Does the microphone pick up both you, and the remote speakers? If | so, how are you differentiating? | | Or does the microphone signal automatically cancel out the sounds | coming out of the speakers? | gscho wrote: | Wanted to let you know HTTP requests are not automatically | redirected to HTTPS. | | Love the idea for this, will be trying it out! | interleave wrote: | Hey gscho - Thank you so much for letting me know, have NO idea | how that http:// got in there (?) | | Please don't tell me you're getting a browser error after the | click (?) | | Do you know who/how can help me update that title? | frankgrecojr wrote: | This is awesome! | antipaul wrote: | Send this to my manager, ok? 90% hog at my 1-1s | [deleted] | throwaway9870 wrote: | I _really_ wish a feature was added to online screen sharing that | showed a pie chart of the time each participant was talking. I | think it would help a lot of people who talk to much (probably | myself included). | mixmastamyk wrote: | Maybe you need a better meeting format? We go round robin with | our issues to tackle, host limits each to about five minutes. | c0balt wrote: | Afaik BBB has this feature since at least last year. It shows a | room admin the time each participant talked etc. While it was | intended for classrooms, I.e. participation in online classes | by students, it should cover the same aspect here. | fodi wrote: | Jitsi Meet [1] has voice and video chat, screen sharing and | speaker stats (showing speaker time) out of the box. | | [1] https://meet.jit.si/ | interleave wrote: | Totally agreed. | | Should be a standard feature imho. | hbn wrote: | You want this until it gets integrated into Microsoft Teams, | management gets ahold of it, and now these pie charts are | treated as an indication of your contributions to the company. | Everyone is itching to talk as much as possible, dragging | meetings on forever, a bunch of people saying absolutely | nothing as insurance against when layoffs come around and a | manager has to choose between 2 people roughly as valuable | except... Hm... Bill contributes 3.8% less than Fred in | meetings... | | Every time I get an email from Microsoft Viva telling me about | my productivity last week, I can't help but feel that's the | direction we're heading. | pjbeam wrote: | I am a manager and am afraid of a future like this. To echo | your point I caution everyone to be careful what kind of data | you wish for because you just might get it. Over a long | enough timeline the probability goes to 1 that it will be | misused by management. | citilife wrote: | Let me introduce you to: https://www.read.ai/ | | Which tracks real-time talk time among everyone, but also a lot | of other statistics, analytics, and transcripts. | | Works on meet, teams, zoom and webex. It just joins the | meetings as an invitee (will automatically join any integrated | calendars). So setup is nearly friction less. | | Actual objective is to reduce meetings when possible and | improve meetings where people must attend. | leokennis wrote: | This would force me to contribute to useless meetings, while | now I attend (look at him dutifully attending!) and in the | meantime just do other work. | themisto wrote: | My favourite contributions to meetings are "Nothing to | contribute that hasn't already been said". Like a breath of | fresh air a light at the end of the tunnel. | actfrench wrote: | Love the focus on personal improvement rather than changing | others. I'm going to use this when I pitch investors on zoom! | interleave wrote: | Yay for the focus - Far easier, sometimes, than changing others | :) | | > I'm going to use this when I pitch investors on zoom! | | Much success! | | Tip: I would still recommend doing a dry-run since adding | another signal (the timer) can lead to an unnecessary high | self-awareness at first. That fades after the first-ever 10 | minutes (in my experience.) | bredren wrote: | Hey there, great app. | | By way of feedback: | | * The play icon with the strike through is not meaningful to me. | I recommend a popover on hover to explain what this means. You | probably thought about a log of different icons but might be | worth polling for a few or letting the user pick one of a few a | preference (At first I thought it "wasn't working") | | * It would be nice to be able to add meta to the session, i.e. | "1:1 with joseph" that automatically gets timestamped for start | and end. Then be able to show the graphs from a day of meetings | stacked. | | * Analysis would be good. Being able to say how many others are | in the meeting so it makes more sense when there are longer gaps. | | * Someone mentioned additional recommendations, that would be | awesome if it had a guidance mode where I could fit a template | over this thing and have it help keep the meeting on track. 5 | mins introductions / waiting for quorum, 5 mins agenda, 10 mins | topic 1 etc. | | I realize the idea for this is to be a simple private app and its | great at that. If necessary, I'd suggest offering something more | complex that might require greater buy in privacy wise so it can | do more. | | I'd still recommend requiring zero network requests as you've | done on this version, even though the analytics might be useful. | | I use an network filter and manually allow connections from apps. | | Starting with this high level of privacy is how you get someone | like me to be comfortable allowing your app to run on my machine. | DennisMaHa wrote: | Sounds like a great idea. Just an idea for another feature: a | word counter. I tend to often use words like "um" when I'm | nervous. | | Good look on your product :) | samatman wrote: | Advising people to rat out coworkers to HR is going to damage | people and doesn't reflect well on you. | | HR is there to protect the company. They hire and they fire, and | guess which one applies here. Could you maybe offer _talk to your | coworker_ as an alternative to sending a link to your product? | christiangenco wrote: | Oh sweet! I had a similar idea in undergrad in ~2012[1]. I love | the retroactive timeline so you can see the rough balance of who | was talking when--this is a really useful graph. | | 1. https://christian.gen.co/conversation-monitor/ | irrational wrote: | I have the opposite problem. According to my reviews, everyone | likes me and I do great work. The only ding against me is that I | never talk. I can go weeks without uttering a word in total | comfort. | lulzury wrote: | It is hard to join when it feels like interrupting, and you | might not want to do that due to differences in culture and/or | personality. However, you have to consider joining in the | conversation and sharing your thoughts. I noticed people can | start making assumptions or making decisions for you, which is | not fun. | tvanantwerp wrote: | I've been getting this feedback since grade school, and I'm | still getting it now in my 30's. | | It's an extroverts' world and I just live in it... | selykg wrote: | The app could be used for that. It does work in the opposite, | the lack of talking is shown in the chart as well. Not to say | you need to arbitrarily start talking but, if this is something | people ask you to do more and you're generally okay with it, | then this could possibly help. | anonu wrote: | Maybe you should ask your colleagues to install this app? | pimlottc wrote: | As the page itself suggests, perhaps they should just talk | about the issue with their colleagues first. | rubslopes wrote: | If you don't mind me asking, how did you come to the realization | that you talk too much? Did your colleagues tell you that, or did | you figured it out by yourself? | interleave wrote: | Hi rubslopes, good question. | | As a neurodiverse person, I've been acutely aware of my impact | on conversations for the last two years (since diagnosis). | | And I guess I just started noticing when I 'flew off the rails' | and think to myself "Ohhh... Shit. I just 'lost' everyone." And | how embarrassed that made me feel. | | Then I read this article https://hbr.org/2015/06/how-to-know- | if-you-talk-too-much which gave me some guidance and vocabulary | that I didn't have until then. | | Then I started keeping tabs on my 'airtime' and I decided I had | to build a simple feedback loop. | | Does this answer your question? | rubslopes wrote: | Yes, it does! Thank you. | sandreas wrote: | Nice, thank you for the post. Maybe you could think of | integrating other aspects of meeting etiquette? I once wrote an | article about this[1] and from time to time, I read it again to | remember the details. | | [1]: https://pilabor.com/blog/2021/04/tips-and-tricks-for- | meeting... | bncy wrote: | While it's not a bit problem for me, I've got a friend who really | needs help with breaking his own monologs, so I'm sending him | that | interleave wrote: | Bold. | | Please keep me/us in here updated! | mdructor wrote: | While I do occasionally encounter people rambling on about | nothingburgers in meetings, I get more irked that the status quo | at my workplace is people just sit there silently, contributing | nothing in medium sized (6-12 people) meetings. It just seems | like nobody wants to risk saying something that might be | challenged or "seem dumb", as if they are all suffering from | imposter syndrome. | | Recently a fellow developer was doing a demo of an automated UI | testing suite and how it could apply to our product, and when it | came time for questions or to show any sort of interest at all, | its just _crickets_. I feel obligated to participate in | situations like these, reach for questions or at least | acknowledge other 's hard work, because nobody else seems to want | to. For me its frustrating, I wish I were surrounded by people | that are more willing to give their 2 cents, even if it means a | little bit longer meeting, rather than staring at a sea of blank | faces that don't bother to queue their mic for the entire | meeting. | gardenhedge wrote: | > I feel obligated to participate in situations like these, | reach for questions or at least acknowledge other's hard work | | There must be two (or more) schools of thought on this then. I | am the opposite. It's painfully obvious when people are just | asking questions for the sake of it. It's completely pointless | and wasting everyones times. Another thing I see is where the | Asker wants to make a point about something. They make their | point and then tack on a question at the end. | derefr wrote: | Much of the time that I don't have anything to say in a | meeting, it's because I don't think fast enough to have | anything to contribute on the spot. If someone posted the | content of the meeting as a text post in a Slack channel, I'd | read it, stew on it, and then probably end up writing 2-6 | paragraphs of thoughts about it about five hours later. But you | want those 2-6 paragraphs _right now_? I haven 't thought of | them yet! | | And, IMHO, this is the main reason "async meetings" (e.g. email | threads) are an improvement over sync meetings. Why put people | on the spot, when you know you'll end up getting only a | fraction of their mental capacity out of the deal? "War rooms" | are for emergencies, not for creative thinking. | randomdata wrote: | _> Why put people on the spot, when you know you 'll end up | getting only a fraction of their mental capacity out of the | deal?_ | | I don't get it either. In a meeting the other day I was asked | about something I did six months ago. I responded with | something to the effect of "Let me refresh my memory and I'll | get back to you", but the boss laid on the pressure "well, | why don't we try to figure it out now?" So we spent a lengthy | amount of time talking about it and reached a conclusion. | | When the meeting was complete I spent a few minutes fully | engrossing myself in that work, like I wanted to do | originally, and realized that what we concluded was wrong. | Following that realization, I got back to them with the | correct response... What a waste of time that was. It's not | like we are talking about how nice the weather is. Technical | discussion requires a lot of information that usually isn't | available in the moment. | | As a 20 year veteran to working from home, I have worked with | teams who have embraced async communication in the past and | it is amazing how much more productive it is. Now that | everyone and their brother think they can work from home, | without having built working from home skills, it's been | interesting to say the least. | [deleted] | kerblang wrote: | Ever try asking people questions? Like, "Bob? What do you think | of this? Would you ever use it?" No need to make excuses, just | do it. | | It's a leadership thing. Good leaders do that. | aloisdg wrote: | Could it be seen as bullying? | selykg wrote: | If you're asking an expert in the area of what the topic is | about, or stakeholders, or those that maybe have that topic | in their circle of competence, then why would it be | considered bullying? You'd expect them to have an opinion | or some sort of feedback. | | If you're asking someone who has literally nothing to do | with that area of your work then, that's just kind of a | weird situation. The key is tying the question to the area | that is impacted by the person you're asking. It could be | an open ended question and not even super specific. | agentdrtran wrote: | No, unless you're only doing it to one person or being a | jerk about it. | fruit2020 wrote: | How so? | vanattab wrote: | Really asking a colleague his/her opinion on work related | decisions is potential bullying now? | akhmatova wrote: | _Like, "Bob? What do you think of this? Would you ever use | it?"_ | | It's actually kind of obnoxious to call on people like that. | Even if it may seem like a "leadership thing" -- which may | explain why it seems such a favored technique among wannabe | alpha manger types. | | I'm with the parent commenter: if people are in the flow (and | give a shit), they'll definitely have something say (and your | difficulty will be in getting them to keep it short). If | they're not, and you're getting crickets -- it points to a | deeper problem. That cannot be solved by, in effect, throwing | chalk at people to get them to speak up. | zucked wrote: | My assumption is that if you're in the meeting, it has some | adjacency to your work. This isn't about calling on the | daydreaming kid in high school Spanish class who _has_ to | be there to graduate. If you're in the meeting, it should | be applicable to you and you should be ready to give some | input; even saying something like "I'm not sure, need more | info", or "don't have anything to add" is a valid and | acceptable answer. | | If the meeting isn't germane to your work, why are you in | it? | | I know people who do this because they're genuinely trying | to get input from a broad set of people, some of whom will | never speak unless they're asked directly. It doesn't have | to be a mark of an alpha trying to beta everyone else. | p_j_w wrote: | >My assumption is that if you're in the meeting, it has | some adjacency to your work. | | This assumption does not match up with my experience. | | >If the meeting isn't germane to your work, why are you | in it? | | I personally have gotten pretty good about declining | meetings, but plenty of people aren't. Besides, I've been | occasionally asked by my direct manager to attend a | meeting that it turns out I wasn't actually needed at or | remotely interested in for my work. | | It would be nice to live in a world where meetings worked | ideally and there weren't a bunch of people there wasting | their own time, but that is sadly not the world we live | in. | zucked wrote: | If it's not a meeting that you have any applicability to | and someone asks for your input in the meeting, say so. | | "Sorry, I don't see myself using this | product/service/team - not because it isn't good, it just | isn't relevant to what I'm responsible for/in charge of". | | I feel like people treat meetings like this inescapable | prison; once you're invited, you can never escape! It's | bonkers. If you don't need to go to the meeting or don't | have applicability... don't. | | I work for a Fortune-listed company -- exactly the kind | of place where attendee bloat thrives and I've never once | had any manager or supervisor aggressively push back on | my declines if they are valid. | WastingMyTime89 wrote: | But throwing chalk works. Don't get me wrong I wish all the | people I value the opinion of or need to get adhesion from | were full of confidence and perfectly fine speaking in | public. It would make my life easier. Sadly they are not so | I sometimes have to push them in the swimming pool. | Hopefully at some point they will realise they are | perfectly able to swim. In the meantime, well, tough love | it's gonna be. | ALittleLight wrote: | I think throwing chalk could just be gaming metrics. If | people are interested it shows that what's happening is | valuable, they benefit from what's being presented or | have input that the presenter needs and they want to get | that across. What the organization should care about is | not that people ask questions or give feedback, it should | care that time is being used well. That is we know this | meeting isn't a waste of time because people are | interested active participants and if people just sit | quietly and wait for thing to be over maybe it wasn't | that useful. | | When you force people to talk you are getting the metric | (people asked questions) but because you are forcing it | the metric becomes disconnected from what you actually | care about - was this meeting a waste of time. You | haven't actually improved things you've just obfuscated | the problem. | t0mas88 wrote: | It's a "leadership thing" because most good leaders have | learned that it's useful to invite others to share their | opinion before you do so yourself. Especially in more | authority-style cultures, because you'll get better input | that way. Then people aren't trying to just agree with | whatever the person in a leadership role said. | tqi wrote: | I think there is a nuance here, where this is only useful if | you do the work to tailor it to that person. ie "Bob, I know | your team has had [X] concern in the past. From the [Y] | perspective, does this seem useful to you?" | | The meta point being I don't think there are simple tricks or | shortcuts to better participation. | t0mas88 wrote: | Sure that's nice. But what the post above suggested works | fine as well, just pick someone that hasn't said anything | yet and ask what they think. | | Unless you invite totally irrelevant people to meetings, | they should have some kind of view or feedback on whatever | was just presented. | donedealomg wrote: | randomdata wrote: | _> Recently a fellow developer was doing a demo of an automated | UI testing suite and how it could apply to our product, and | when it came time for questions or to show any sort of interest | at all, its just crickets._ | | Get back to me in a day or two after I've had time to read the | documentation, play with it for a while, and, most importantly, | think about it, and I might have some questions or comments. In | the moment watching someone else dick around? No chance. Even | if I wanted to participate beyond your expectations, my mind | will be blank. Guaranteed. | | _> For me its frustrating_ | | I too am frustrated by these types of meetings. An | email/Slack/whatever message containing _" Hey! Check out this | UI testing framework. Think it would work for us?"_ would | provide just as much information as the presentation, while | allowing more time to actually investigate to a necessary depth | and come back with a constructive response. | | A followup meeting to discuss the merits of the technology | _after_ everyone has had a chance to consider it aren 't so | bad. When these are hosted I find people are much more engaged | and interesting discussion comes of it. I have no qualms about | being challenged or "seeming dumb" in these meetings. | | _> I wish I were surrounded by people that are more willing to | give their 2 cents_ | | Whereas I wish I were surrounded by more people who were | interested in software engineering, not being an actor in | amateur live theatre. Not that there is anything wrong with the | latter, but time and place. Nobody wants to see your | presentation at work. Sorry. | galdosdi wrote: | IMHO this effect is much worse in video meetings, partly | because of the lag and just the whole experience where social | cues are muted. | | In a real meeting, someone who has something to add will | actually have different facial expressions that can be read by | others. It just feels so much easier to gradually cut in | without feeling like you might be talking over someone. | r_hoods_ghost wrote: | 6-12 people isn't a meeting, it's a presentation. At that size | not everyone can contribute and most people probably don't need | to be there. Meetings of that size are generally either "update | the boss" meetings where everyone goes one by one and says what | they have been doing. These are a terrible waste of everybody's | time, EXCEPT for the boss and so can sometimes be justified. Or | they are presentations from one person to the group. If you | find there is no interaction or feedback from the rest of the | people in your presentation, it is probably either a bad | presentation or you are presenting to people who don't want or | need to be there. | pc86 wrote: | I really think this is a backwards way to look at it. Work | typically happens in an organization, and in organizations | you don't always do the most optimal thing for yourself as an | individual. I know everyone on HN would love it if they just | got a steady stream of tickets into their inbox, never had a | meeting about anything ever, and only interacted with git and | HN. But that's not how the world works. Being attentive and | engaged for 30 minutes while you get information that may | very well make your job easier is not a big ask. | | I love love love working from home full-time but this is my | chief complaint about it - before COVID (at least in the | smaller places I worked), if you brought your laptop into a | meeting, spent the entire time typing, and didn't engage | anyone, you'd probably get either a warning or it would be | your last meeting. It forced people to actually pay attention | and not just pretend like they were, or at the very least | risk getting called out for it. | | And while 12 is certainly pushing it, I've definitely been in | productive working meetings with 6-8 people where all have | been contributing. | rad_gruchalski wrote: | An alternative is to target your presentation at the people | who will be in the room and prepare a bunch relevant | questions/anecdotes/start a discussion with a couple of | people you know will participate. As in--know your audience. | This usually relaxes everyone and kicks off the interaction. | | My experience is that nobody wants to ask the first question | because it sets the bar. But that doesn't mean nobody wants | to participate. | pachico wrote: | And this is the moment in my life when I learned the word | "nothingburger", which I will never forget. | | Thank you!!! | bonestamp2 wrote: | For engagement, one thing that works from me is telling people | before the demo/presentation that you'd like them each to share | their "feedback" afterwards. But, replace "feedback" with a | very specific thing that makes sense for the situation. | | So, let's say the demo is on a specific feature, then you might | preface the demo by saying this is the way that you decided to | solve the problem, but you want to hear from everyone on how | you could have done it differently. | | That gives people the cue to be actively engaged by putting | them between the problem and the solution. It also gives them | fair warning that you're going to call on them afterwords, so | it gives them time to think of something that they won't feel | embarrassed to say (some people need time to be creative, while | others think about alternatives and questions on the fly). | | Either way, if people aren't speaking up then they might not be | engaged. That doesn't mean they weren't listening, it just | means they don't know why they are there. Maybe it really is a | waste of their time, or maybe they just think it's a waste of | their time because they don't understand the expectations or | purpose. | | My dad was a successful executive and he gave me several pieces | of advice when I joined the workforce. I think #2 fits in this | case, "Expectations are to people, what oil is to an engine". | obaid wrote: | This is pretty neat. I am going to use it to monitor myself | during the calls. I am curious about the tech behind this. | Speaker identification locally on the machine seems like what's | happening here. The nerd in me wants more tech deep dive :) | interleave wrote: | Let me know how it goes - Would love to hear your experience. | | It's a small but solid ML model that I've been working on. And | I've got a 'headphones'-free feature on my personal roadmap, | too! | carimura wrote: | IIRC UberConference used to send a report after the call listing | the time each participant was talking. I always found that super | insightful and entertaining. | xfalcox wrote: | I really need this for Linux. Sometime I get carried away... | interleave wrote: | Damn, I'm very sorry - I can't deliver that at this moment. | aloisdg wrote: | Same here. I am the kind of person who can get lost in a | monologue tunnel quite easily. | ghostbrainalpha wrote: | Could we turn this app into wearable tech so that it can be used | IRL for dating? | hkon wrote: | Why do you need it? | thealienthing wrote: | I love the concept of this app. Since I'm a very social person | and tend to be the opposite of a wallflower during meetings, I'm | constantly asking myself "having I been talking too long" or "am | I dominating this discussion" and I feel very insecure about it. | My only problem is I work in an embedded software space which | means almost all of my meetings are in person. I wish I had | something like this on my phone so I can check my phone or smart | watch during in person meetings. | interleave wrote: | Thank you so much for sharing. I can relate. | | For in-person, maybe just tell your team that you're feeling | insecure about this and would love to get their real-time | feedback (?) | higgins wrote: | have you considered open sourcing it? | themisto wrote: | Love it. Simple and effective UI. In the past I've had the | opposite problem occasionally where I think I'm taking up much | more time than I am (a consequence of nervousness maybe) and this | would be helpful for that too -- not just an indicator for when | you talk too long, but also when for when you are still "in the | green" to combat that nervousness induced timewarp. | interleave wrote: | Ohhhhh... Right. | | Just to mirror what I understand: You have experienced that, | while talking, you thought "Oh, I've been talking for hours | already. I should stop now." but in reality you haven't even | scratched the, let's say, 30 second mark? | | Absolutely relevant - I hadn't even thought of that | possibility. I'm actually thinking, the whole app could stay | the same, just swap the green/red colors (?) | themisto wrote: | Yeah exactly! Thinking back, the time's I've felt this the | most is during stressful interviews -- e.g. I'm asked a | difficult question and part way through my answer my nerves | say "You've been talking for ages, you've lost them" but in | reality it's been a perfectly reasonable amount of time and | if I listen to my nerves I risk cutting the answer short. | | I'd actually love a tool like this for interviews -- if had a | mac or there was a linux build I'd definitely use this. | | Re: Colours -- If I were to use this for this use-case (next | time work gives me a mac perhaps) I think the current green | -> red arrangement is fine as-is, as it covers both use-cases | (if red -> too long; if green -> still have time) | interleave wrote: | Thank you for sharing - I just spoke with my girlfriend who | described the exact same thing. I had no idea. | | > if had a mac or there was a linux build I'd definitely | use this. | | while I don't have resources now for a Linux build, where | would I start in terms of window systems/dekstop | environment (I don't even know if those are still the right | terms - My last desktop box was running debian/sarge) | vorpalhex wrote: | You probably don't even have to swap the colors. | gardenhedge wrote: | I wish behaviour like this was weeded out in the interview | process. It is really damaging to teams and productivity and I | would estimate most people won't try to fix it like OP has tried. | shankr wrote: | Yeah I feel like I am suffering with this with my teammates. | How passive aggressive it would be if I shared this with my | colleagues at work? | interleave wrote: | To answer your question without knowing any context: I would | err on the side of it being received as rather passive | aggressive. | | I do not recommend using the app (especially not without | context) as a proxy for a difficult conversation that may | have to happen. | | Since the question came up earlier, here is my full take on | this situation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32097859 | vorpalhex wrote: | Try talking with them instead. Use mediation, not a proxy. | gardenhedge wrote: | The colleague talking seems to be the problem :) | | GP is supposed to mediate while at work while their | colleague is talking in circles? | vorpalhex wrote: | Yes, that is literally how you solve interpersonal | problems. You pull the person aside and discuss the | problem. | gardenhedge wrote: | It was a small joke. That is a very simplistic view of | the world. That approach may solve your problem but it | also may not. | TameAntelope wrote: | Depending on how you did it, you could be quite "aggressive"! | | "Dave, found the perfect app for you!" is aggressive. "Wow I | might start using this app!" Is better. | shankr wrote: | > "Wow I might start using this app!" Is better. | | Yeah I thought about going this way. | skinnymuch wrote: | Interviews are a very specific beast that is rarely duplicated | in the work place besides when your butt is on the line in a | conversation, which is still different. | kerblang wrote: | I imagine it would go like this: > Candidate | answered all my questions thoroughly. Do not hire. | burntwater wrote: | If I weeded people out based on their talking too much in Zoom | meetings, I would lose a fair number of my best people. I don't | think this would make it into the top 20 red flags to look for | in an interview. | gardenhedge wrote: | Out of curiosity, what would your top red flags be? | ryandrake wrote: | To me, one of the most reliable ways to blow your interview | is to just keep talking and talking, never providing any sort | of re-entry window into the conversation for your | interviewer. Double-bad if you are not actually answering the | question, and just spouting your prepared speech. This | happens so often that I think it must be something these | unfortunate candidates are learning somewhere. | | Zoom makes this even worse than in person, as the software | often won't even let you insert yourself into someone else's | stream-of-consciousness word salad to help them course- | correct. | interleave wrote: | Interesting perspective. | | I can only speak for myself of course: The issue only happens | in online meetings and probably only with specific teams. So, I | would have "slipped through", if your interview process is in- | person. | | It starts with the awareness in my opinion. There are people | who talk a lot and enjoy dominating the conversation. I wrote | an extensive FAQ on why Unblah is not for them. | | Those who (like me) talk a lot but are painfully aware - I | think aren't extremely damaging. I hope. | gardenhedge wrote: | You're someone who has recognised it and built a tool using | the skills you have. I doubt you are damaging to a team at | all! In fact, it's impressive. | powerhour wrote: | It's probably more common as the person becomes more familiar | with the group -- at least it is for me. That'll make it hard | or impossible to identify during interviews. | | I've been trying not to speak at all during meetings, instead | following up in chat. As a bonus, this means there's a | searchable record of the details, and thus is far more | valuable than any in person or video meeting could ever be. | interleave wrote: | > It's probably more common as the person becomes more | familiar with the group -- at least it is for me. That'll | make it hard or impossible to identify during interviews. | | Agreed. | | > I've been trying not to speak at all during meetings, | instead following up in chat. | | How does that work? I mean, interpersonally? | powerhour wrote: | I've always been on small teams so I think it works ok, | but I guess it could be an unfair burden for my | coworkers. Maybe I should ask. | rexpop wrote: | Congratulations! You're committing the Fundamental Attribution | Error[0]! | | Corporate meetings are traditionally structured to accommodate | those who talk too much in meetings, but they could be | structured differently. Deliberate facilitation, for example | "taking stack"[1]," can help the puzzle pieces of panel of | diverse personalities find their place in contributing | maximally to the tasks at hand. Heck, sometimes it's as easy as | setting expectations or as simple (albeit not necessarily easy) | as establishing an environment of psychological safety[2] in | which coworkers feel comfortable pushing back on antisocial | behavior, eg asking "can you not interrupt me?" | | 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error | | 1. | https://techresources.shoestringcollective.com/collaborate/t... | | 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_safety | Kaze404 wrote: | Interesting. I had no idea there was a name for this | behavior. Thanks for the link. | gardenhedge wrote: | Did you mean to reply to me? I am not committing the | Fundamental Attribution Error. | nvr219 wrote: | No way. Interviews are totally different conversations than | team meetings. And I would go so far as to say that if people | talking too much is "really damaging to teams and | productivity", that is a failure of the team leadership, and | they should work on that with the offending participants. | Online meeting social skills are important but a lot of people | who are really good at their job don't have those skills (yet!) | gardenhedge wrote: | In an agile/scrum context, what leadership is there in a team | to do this? In scrum ceremonies, the scrum master should | handle the direction of the meetings but lots of | meetings/video calls happen outside these meetings. | hamaluik wrote: | Unfortunately I think I have the exact opposite problem (don't | talk enough) but awesome work! And thank you for making and | clarifying that it is private and 100% on device. More tools need | to be like this! | interleave wrote: | Hey there! I empathize that not talking enough is just as | difficult. | | I have had this on my radar as well and, in a way, you can | totally use it to track your non-speaking as well. | | Here's an idea: What if there was a toggle for your scenario | and the count-down of "other people talking" started when | you're silent. | | The colors on timeline would be inverted, you'd see your | "airtime" as a few gray dots. | | What do you think? Would this be helpful? | hamaluik wrote: | I think it could be, but without trying it I'd hesitate to | say spend a bunch of time and energy implementing it. I also | can't really help you as I don't have a mac to run it on. | ComputerCat wrote: | That's pretty neat. I really like how simple and concise the | website you shared is! If you're screen-sharing during a meeting | and have Unblah running, will the other people see it (or is it | blocked for privacy the way an email notification is)? | interleave wrote: | Hey ComputerCat (coolest name btw.)! - Thank you for your | question. | | - If you're screen-sharing your whole screen then: Yes. They'll | see it running. | | I gather, you'd rather keep it private - Can you please share | why you feel that way? (Happy to do a quick call if you're more | comfortable there) | yieldcrv wrote: | I always thought Clubhouse and Twitter Spaces should have a | feature like this! | | Or a way for the crowd to point out that you've been talking for | too long, make your phone start buzzing or something ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-07-14 23:00 UTC)