[HN Gopher] Trends in menstrual bleeding changes after SARS-CoV-... ___________________________________________________________________ Trends in menstrual bleeding changes after SARS-CoV-2 vaccination Author : bookofjoe Score : 90 points Date : 2022-07-17 19:37 UTC (3 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.science.org) (TXT) w3m dump (www.science.org) | alliao wrote: | this is a good start | jjgreen wrote: | lostlogin wrote: | It does define the term later, and includes a breakdown. | | 'e.g., those on menstrual suppression therapies or | postmenopausal people' | | 'This sample included 35,572 (90.9%) woman-only identifying and | 3557 (9.1%) gender-diverse respondents' | baremetal wrote: | > formerly menstruating people | | is that referring to post menopausal women? | mbg721 wrote: | jimmygrapes wrote: | matthewmacleod wrote: | Among others, but the thing I'd guess the parent was | referring to is a specific kind of culture warrior who loses | their absolute shit when anybody uses the term "people" in | relation to any topic that primarily involves women; some | trans men may menstruate or have done so in the past, for | example, so there is a tendency in the field to avoid | gendered terms unless it's necessary. | dang wrote: | " _Please don 't pick the most provocative thing in an article | or post to complain about in the thread. Find something | interesting to respond to instead._" | | https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html | SoftTalker wrote: | "Vaccine trial protocols do not typically monitor for major | adverse events for more than 7 days" | | I am stunned by this. Seven days? Is there really no reason to | think that a vaccine candidate might have adverse effects more | than a week later? | ellisv wrote: | Given that the vaccine itself is out of your system within a | few days, and if effective begin triggering an immune response, | I don't think there's not much reason to monitor for safety | beyond that point. | iratewizard wrote: | Thalidomide is out of your system by your first grandchild. | codefreeordie wrote: | If you studied for more than seven days, you might find | problems preventing your mass rollout, and then where would you | be | PKop wrote: | Of course there is reason to think that. So what are we left | with? These organizations do not have your best interest in | mind. Why is that so hard to believe? | | If they tested for longer, they'd be less likely to sell their | products. Who is going to stop them? Everyone criticizing | vaccines and those peddling them is a pariah in popular culture | and among elite institutional leadership in US. This is what | happens, they have free reign to pull the wool over your eyes. | | Do you think because you "believe the science", you or anyone | else is immune to propaganda? | Nextgrid wrote: | I find this hard to believe. It's beneficial for everyone | including manufacturers for their products to be proven safe. | | If we assume manufacturers are intentionally malicious, what | prevents them from outright submitting a dummy saline shot | for testing instead of the real thing, guaranteeing | absolutely zero side-effects? | dukeofdoom wrote: | The likely alternative is the people making the decisions knew it | would harm or even kill some people, and still went ahead with | it. And just set up a circle of deniability, and legal immunity | in the event of any future litigation. This includes pfizer. | | In Ontario the politicians said they are following the advice of | chief medical officer in implementing the lockdowns. But there's | a moment of dark political satire, when on hot mic one of the | chief medical officers before a press conference say's "I just | read what they tell me to". | | https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-health-official-responds-... | | "The trolley problem is a series of thought experiments in ethics | and psychology, involving stylized ethical dilemmas of whether to | sacrifice one person to save a larger number. The series usually | begins with a scenario in which a runaway tram or trolley is on | course to collide with and kill a number of people (traditionally | five) down the track, but a driver or bystander can intervene and | divert the vehicle to kill just one person on a different track." | -Wikipedia | steve76 wrote: | jl6 wrote: | > What else should I know about this research? | | > The nature of this survey means that we cannot compare the | incidence of different experiences here with the general | population (meaning, 40% of this sample having an experience does | not mean that is the rate of that experience out in the world). | The associations described here are not causal but provide | evidence to better study these trends further. We emphasize that | menstrual bleeding changes of this nature are generally not | indicative of changes to fertility. | moistly wrote: | Hmmm. Is the vaccine, which produces a spike protein for a short | time that your body then reacts against, more or less dangerous | than an active virus covered in all sorts of wonderful cell- | hijacking mechanisms, replicating by the bajillions, and causing | micro clots and inflammation all over one's sensitive internal | organs? | | A real stumper of a question! | | I bet it's the virus that has killed umpteen millions of people, | not the vaccine that's been administered several billion times | without causing outrageous levels of death or ill health. Surely! | | [rolls eyes] | in_cahoots wrote: | As someone who was trying to conceive while the vaccine rolled | out, this isn't surprising. People were regularly reporting basal | temperature spikes, delayed ovulation, and delayed periods. This | is a community that is extremely data-oriented, since with the | right measurements you're able to predict your fertile (or non- | fertile) window. | | I was disappointed to see how little research there was into | menstruation at the time. We were told that the vaccine was | perfectly safe, and even questioning the vaccine made you 'anti- | vax.' Now over a full year later the scientific community is | confirming what random message boards have been saying all along. | It may be safe, but nobody really cared to look at the impact on | menstruation or pregnancy beyond confirming that the rate of | miscarriage is unchanged. | bsaul wrote: | The problem now is that so many people, in so many fields, | relayed that "everything's safe, if you disagree or dare | casting doubts you're an a ti-science sociopath", that it's | going to be super super hard for them to admit they were wrong. | peyton wrote: | I think a similar thing happened with the 1949 Nobel Prize in | Physiology/Medicine. It remains unvacated. | nerdponx wrote: | Ironically the anti-science rhetoric was first pushed as | propaganda to allow Trump & co. to dodge responsibility for | mishandling the pandemic. | skuhn wrote: | This study began in April 2021 and the paper was published in | July 2022. | | Presuming that the amount of time spent was necessary to | thoroughly gather, review and document the findings, what would | you have wanted done differently? | gjsman-1000 wrote: | Perhaps we wouldn't have had the news, pretending that there | was no effect, and if there was, correlation is not | causation, and then saying as little as 5 months ago that | there may be an effect but that any effects on menstruation | only lasted one day at the most [1]. Just be honest - | dishonesty like this breeds anti-vaxxers. | | [1] https://youtu.be/TWk2Z6mzZUU?t=60 (Good Morning America | and ABC News talking about menstruation side effects 5 months | ago and basically saying the opposite of this study) | PKop wrote: | Not taken the vax if your health and age profile didn't merit | it, given the unknown unknowns and lack of long term testing, | which many people highlighted endlessly for the past year or | so. | | Public concessions exactly to your point that long term | testing _takes time_ , and assertions to the contrary that | tere are no risks of x, y, z were blatant sophistry intended | to silence legitimate criticism. These vaccines were mandated | at threat of loss of careers for crying out loud...people are | still getting fired for not taking them long after covid is | any sort threat whatsoever or where there can be plausible | deniability about claims the vaccines actually prevent | contracting covid etc. | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29003019 | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29004097 | | (lot of "trust the experts", "you sound like one of the | ignorant rubes" type of replies at those links, devoid of any | sort of critical thinking, blindly trusting authorities | without any acknowledgement to potential downsides | outweighing limited upside of vax for many cohorts) | shitpostbot wrote: | mcronce wrote: | > long after covid is any sort threat whatsoever | | People dying and people with - and still getting- long | COVID would probably disagree with that statement. | busymom0 wrote: | 1. Covid vax does not prevent long covid: | | https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2022/05/25/long- | covid-... | | 2. Healthy young people under 50 or even 60 were not | dying or getting hospitalized. Whatever risk they want to | take, they should be able to take it without mandates. | Since the vax does not prevent infection or transmission, | one is only taking individual risk and not affecting | others. | jamroom wrote: | Specific to the US which states had vaccine mandates? | busymom0 wrote: | I live in Canada. Here, unvaxxed weren't even allowed to | air travel domestically. Nor did they recognize a | negative PCR test or past infection natural immunity. | | Compassionate grounds such as taking care of sick family | member, funeral etc were also not exempted. | | Everyone who were COVID+ despite being vaxxed were | allowed to fly, go to gym, restaurant etc. Meanwhile, an | unvaxxed person wasn't allowed to do the same even if | they could show a negative PCR test. | fernandotakai wrote: | i took all three shots and got covid about two weeks ago. | it was HARSH. no sense of smell, no sense of taste, 3 | days with high-ish fever (39C), the body ache was crazy | bad and worse of all: brain fog. i managed to avoid going | to the hospital, but barely. | | and that's with 3 shots. i'm almost sure i would be in an | ICU if i didn't get any shots. | blumomo wrote: | > and that's with 3 shots. i'm almost sure i would be in | an ICU if i didn't get any shots. | | How could we prove this hypothesis? | woodruffw wrote: | It's an anecdote, not a hypothesis. | PKop wrote: | Here again a blatant lack of clarity around the issue. | Who are dying and at what rate? What are their | comorbidities? What is the vax status of those that are | dying, presumably many have taken the vaccine anyways | yes? | | But you do you, is the point. I'm perfectly fine with my | choice of not taking it: I'm not overweight, I lift | weights and exercise regularly, have low bodyfat percent, | I get plenty of sunlight for Vitamin D and immune | support. I _do not need_ the vaccine. | | This mentality of extreme safetyism applied | indiscriminately even now is insane. Are you going to | take covid boosters for the rest of your life? The | disease is going to be continually weakened and become | just another coronavirus. The rest of us will move on | with our lives. Quite simply, I'm not worried about Covid | at all. Can you say the same about the long term | prospects of endless boosters on your body? I sure | couldn't. | | Tell me now how 100% confident you are there are no side | effects because the propaganda experts and drug companies | told you so, so we can come back to it in 6 months when | more side effects start being discovered and posted here | on HN... | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29003555 | ccn0p wrote: | Yes and this insanity is literally keeping large numbers | of people from engaging in parts of society. Some | conferences, meetups, and events still require attendees | to be fully vaccinated with no testing option. I was | unable to attend an event just last week for this reason. | It's stunning. | mlyle wrote: | > Who are dying and at what rate? | | Mostly the very old, at this point; though I'm in my 40s | where the rate starts to tick up. But beyond that, | there's the risk of long term morbidity. My niece was | early 20's, active, in good health, with no comorbidities | and is now pseudo-disabled. The vaccine only removes | about 30% of the risk of this type of outcome, but still | that alone is worth it. | | > What is the vax status of those that are dying, | presumably many have taken the vaccine anyways yes? | | Looks like people who have taken the vaccine have about | 6-10% of the risk of death of those who haven't, | controlling for comorbidities. | | > Are you going to take covid boosters for the rest of | your life? | | A lot of us might-- though I've got a fair bit of hope | that we come up with something better in the next couple | of years. I will do my best to avoid infection in the | meantime. | | > The disease is going to be continually weakened and | become just another coronavirus. | | Viral selection is complicated. Yes, in the very long | term, many viruses end up becoming less virulent, but | others go in the other direction. | | > Can you say the same about the long term prospects of | endless boosters on your body? I sure couldn't. | | I'm pretty dang confident that I can bound the risk from | the vaccine to be much lower than the risk from COVID | infection. | jmcgough wrote: | > But you do you, is the point | | I've never understood this type of selfishness. If you | get sick you will, on average, infect another 2-3 people. | It's not just about you. | busymom0 wrote: | 1. Covid shots do not prevent infection or transmission. | | 2. Since Delta, both vaxxed and unvaxxed cases have the | same viral load. | | 3. Since December at least, boosted and vaxxed have | higher RATE per 100k of covid infections. | | So whatever benefit one gets is individual benefit only | and not getting others sick in any different way as the | vaxxed folks do. | mlyle wrote: | > 1. Covid shots do not prevent infection or | transmission. | | It does look like there's about a 20-30% reduction of | infection from random surveys of the population and from | nucleocapsid seroprevalence assays; transmission-once- | infected is very difficult to measure, but it would be | surprising if it did not have some effect. | | > 2. Since Delta, both vaxxed and unvaxxed cases have the | same viral load. | | There's a key fallacy here: we're looking at a population | of cases detected by similar means and then found that | they have similar viral loads. Not too surprising of a | finding (survivorship bias, basically). | | There's some data indicating that viral copy assays are | not good proxies for finding true infectious shedding -- | and that vaccinated individuals can be much better in | this regard despite having higher loads. e.g. | https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-01816-0 | | > 3. Since December at least, boosted and vaxxed have | higher RATE per 100k of covid infections. | | This is absolutely and completely untrue. There's been a | couple of times where the vaxxed have been higher in the | data series, but the overwhelming trend in the data has | been the opposite. e.g. right now in Santa Clara County, | where I am, the unvaccinated case rate is approximately | 268 per 100,000 per week; the fully vaccinated case rate | is about 46 per 100,000. | | Of course, people who elect vaccination don't behave | exactly the same as those who don't... and so many people | in S.C.C. are vaccinated that the exact number of | unvaccinated has some uncertainty (but it's not off by a | factor of 5). | [deleted] | roenxi wrote: | > It does look like there's about a 20-30% reduction of | infection from random surveys of the population and from | nucleocapsid seroprevalence assays; transmission-once- | infected is very difficult to measure, but it would be | surprising if it did not have some effect. | | You are responding to a practical concern with a | theoretical counter. But practically speaking the vaccine | doesn't change the picture at all. The situation pre- | vaccine was COVID was going to spread like wildfire after | any lockdown attempt ended and everyone was going to be | exposed to it. The situation post-vaccine, even with that | reduction in infection rates, was the same. | | Ditto speed, since this is an exponential process that | reduction won't have an especially material effect on | when everyone gets COVID. | | We ran a natural experiment on this in Australia [0] - | having a highly vaccinated population didn't appear to | have any impact at all on COVID transmission rate or | reach in who gets infected. The numbers are not | convincing that the vaccine did anything for | transmissions. The effect of personal protection seems to | explain all the benefits of the vaccine. | | [0] https://chrisbillington.net/COVID_NSW.html | busymom0 wrote: | 1. That was only true before Delta. When Delta came, the | viral load became the same between vaxxed and unvaxxed | folks and combined with waning immunity of 3-6 months, | most people were basically "unvaxxed" with respect to | transmission by fall. Omicron took it even further where | since December, in Ontario, boosted and vaxxed folks have | had higher rate per 100k of covid infections. | | https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS147 | 3-3... | | 3. It is true and the government admits that boosted and | vaxxed have higher rates. Ontario source: | | https://web.archive.org/web/20220228051509/http://covid-1 | 9.o... | | https://web.archive.org/web/20220331081902/http://covid-1 | 9.o... | | Here's how it looks: | | https://imgur.com/a/H4ErmyC | mlyle wrote: | > 1. That was only true before Delta. | | Posting a disputed study that I criticized to try and | refute me, when I posted important 2022 followup data to | viral shedding based on actual infectivity rather than | just RNA copies indicates you either didn't read my | comment or didn't understand it. | | > 3. It is true and the government admits that boosted | and vaxxed have higher rates. Ontario source: | | I just knew you were going to point to the Ontario data | from Mar-Apr. This is why I said in a couple places they | popped above for a couple data points. Are you | deliberately being obtuse? | | Compare to basically any other data series from any other | time; e.g. my locale: | | https://covid19.sccgov.org/dashboard-case-rates- | vaccination-... | busymom0 wrote: | How's that study disputed? | | That study is not alone either. NEJM has similar studies | too. | | Your link seems to be an outlier. Denmark, UK, Scotland, | and other provinces in Canada also show the same higher | rates in boosted and fully vaxxed than unvaxxed. | Walgreens data for US also shows this. Look at page 3 of: | | https://www.walgreens.com/businesssolutions/covid-19-inde | x.j... | | Canadian government seroprevalence data also shows that | between December 2021 and May 2022, there were at least | 17.5 million infections. This is in a population of 38 | million. This was despite extremely high vax rates. | | So, how exactly did the vaccine prevent infection and | transmission? Vaxxed folks were allowed to enjoy services | with a false sense of security and spread Covid to others | while unvaxxed folks were denied from society. | | Please don't resolve to ad hominem attacks on hacker | news. | StillBored wrote: | While I sorta tend to agree with you, this is a _RESULT_ | of people refusing to take the vaccines (or do full | lockdowns/wear masks/etc). Like the original SARs strains | it should have been possible to eradicate through strong | public health measures, one of which was vaccination. | | So, we can shrug this one off, because in the end it | _only_ kills a percent or so of people, overwhelmingly | already infirm or elderly. | | We may not be so lucky the next time, and this attitude | _will_ get us in trouble when that happens. | gjsman-1000 wrote: | China literally locked down Shanghai and millions of | people in their homes, had police everywhere monitoring, | had almost no exceptions other than for the police, and | literally boarded people in their homes, engaged every | spying mechanism they had, did mandatory testing, _for | more than six weeks_ , and it did not stop COVID - but it | is increasingly clear it only delayed it from spreading | inevitably. Even WIRED, pro-vaccine, has written articles | about all the people who died from the lockdown and | inability to get medical care due to the restrictions. It | was the most full, most strict lockdown physically | possible and it still _did not work_ and China is looking | at needing to repeat it. | StillBored wrote: | After it already went endemic, and the transmissiblity | went through the roof. | | Not sure why that is hard to understand. If this virus | killed 95% of people would you be arguing against | lockdowns? | | I think most people can agree that its one of those to | little to late situations in china and they need to | reconsider at this point, but that doesn't make what they | are trying to do wrong. | JohnTHaller wrote: | My under 40 triathlete friend with no comorbidities who | wound up in the ICU for a month and needed two surgeries | to drain his lungs would beg to differ. Or my buddy down | the block under 40 with no cormorbities who is now on | beta blockers for long term Covid. As would folks like my | Dad who the vaccine and first booster didn't work on due | to his suppressed immune system from receiving my kidney. | PKop wrote: | Careful with extreme endurance exercise, it can be immuno | suppressive [0] | | I would advise a balance between weightlifting, moderate | cardio, lots of sunlight exposure for Vitamin D and | testosterone support, and a balanced diet. | | And yes there are instances of young, non co-morbid | people dying from covid. Statistically, not that many, so | I'm not worried about it. | | [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3475230/ | nradov wrote: | With billions of cases around the world there will always | be some outliers, but those are irrelevant for decision | making. What does the data show? | anonymouse008 wrote: | Lance Armstrong had advanced testicular cancer while | competing and placing 6th in the Olympics in 1996. | | Comorbidities are tricky - and triathletes are a weird | body type to build and maintain. | PKop wrote: | Yes extreme endurance can be immuno suppressive. | woodruffw wrote: | This kind of skepticism goes both ways: you could get | COVID next week and discover that you have a latent | comorbidity that otherwise would never have affected you. | | From a public health perspective, universal (or near- | universal) vaccination is an unequivocal good. Given _the | sum_ of what we know about both COVID and any side | effects of vaccination, this remains the case. | oldgradstudent wrote: | These side effects are not rare at all. These side effects | should have been caught in the original vaccine trials. | | The fact that it comes out now tells you something went very | wrong in the trials. In a functioning science, a careful | postmortem of the vaccine trials would be in order. | skuhn wrote: | Perhaps you already know, but initial vaccine trials are | not performed against menstruation age (aka likely to | become pregnant) women. It is considered medically | unethical to do so. That is an obvious double edged sword: | | 1. It prevents birth defects from occurring with trial | participants, because this product has not yet been fully | studied and approved. | | 2. It reduces the initial knowledge of any female-specific | issues with the product, and particularly limits knowledge | around pregnancy issues. | | https://www.path.org/articles/why-are-pregnant-people- | left-o... | oldgradstudent wrote: | This also affected postmenopausal women who were included | in the trials. To quote the paper: "66% of postmenopausal | people reported breakthrough bleeding." | | Then of course, menstruation age and pregnant women | should not be told the vaccine is safe for them, as it | was never tested on them. Similar to other | pharmaceuticals, it should only be recommend after very | careful consideration. | | For example, the Tick-Borne Encephalitis Vaccine has a | track record of decades, but still, the recommendation in | pregnancy is [1] "The vaccine appears to be safe during | pregnancy, but because of insufficient data the vaccine | is only recommended during pregnancy and breastfeeding | when it is considered urgent to achieve protection | against TBE infection and after careful consideration of | risks versus benefits." | | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tick- | borne_encephalitis_vaccin... | swimfar wrote: | That link says trials typically exclude pregnant woman, | not all woman who menstruate. | Trumpi wrote: | > what would you have wanted done differently? | | When these problems were first reported, resolve to stick | with the principle of informed consent rather than impose | mandates. | greenthrow wrote: | Quick Googling shows that the cold and flu can impact | ovulation. So it is not a surprise that Covid or its vaccines | can as well, since it often presents as more severe. | | It was still the correct choice of action for you to get the | vaccine and potentially delay conception. It is safer for you | and the baby if you are vaccinated. | | This study is just providing confirmation to something that all | medical professionals likely assumed is true, based on the | common knowledge that the flu and cold and other illnesses can | also affect fertility. | peyton wrote: | > correct choice of action | | Correct? To... delay conception? According to... you? | | I am not comfortable leaving decisions like that to others. | Nextgrid wrote: | There's an argument for forcing this decision if it affects | others. | | The prevailing theory, at least at the time, was that | widespread vaccination would reduce spread and protect | everyone including the unvaccinated. | | In that case, it could make sense to force people to delay | if it means everyone ends up better off overall. | throwaway406382 wrote: | From a throwaway because of the potential backlash...This paper | is pure bull. They did a survey of 30k people and asked them | about their experience and then said that the vaccine didn't | cause anything and that we should trust our institutions. They | didn't even have a control (unvaccinated) group! Just 30k | vaccinated folks who responded to a survey about whether they | perceived more/less bleeding, and such. | | I'm actually working (as a computational mathematician) with an | OBGYN and a few other doctors on a paper on this topic right | now. We're using real data and a control and doing real | Bayesian stats and all of that. But the tragic thing is, we | don't need to get fancy. There's so much signal that the | vaccine is bad for women's reproductive health that it really | is obvious. I hope we can find an uncaptured journal to get it | published in. | | This paper is pure propaganda that's toeing the line about | vaccine safety. It's idea laundering so they can later point to | an article in "Science" showing that it's safe. | | I'm so sad that Science (the journal) as fallen so far and is | so captured. | manwe150 wrote: | How bad is it for health? This paper also notes that the | virus itself is of great concern foremost, so any conclusion | must be in comparison to the alternative (aka the control | group): "Studies and anecdotal reports are already | demonstrating that menstrual function may be disrupted long | term [be the virus], particularly in those with long COVID | (32-35)" | | It seems so many commenters here miss that sentence, and live | in a mental world where viruses are mostly benign but | healthcare is mostly deadly. | | Therefore, a statistical control group for such a trial as | you describe doing is not an unvaccinated cohort for the same | time period, but rather for infinite time. Thus your results | will require substantial adjustment for the eventual rates of | encountering COVID (and the estimated rates of equivalent | adverse effects), since your trial will presumably be of | finite duration. | jbd28 wrote: | Pretty strong words and claims while providing no data to | refute the paper | fferen wrote: | Note that this is Science Advances, a much less prestigious | journal than Science proper. | belter wrote: | "Ten thousand report menstrual issues after having corona | vaccine" (October 2021) | | https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2021/10/ten-thousand-report- | me... | | [Dutch Reference]: https://www.lareb.nl/news/veel-meldingen- | menstruatiestoornis... | poorbutdebtfree wrote: | There were several posters on HN pointing out menstrual cycles | anecdotes last year and they were largely down voted and | possibly shadowbanned. You don't even need censors anymore when | the majority decides what is acceptable thought. | airza wrote: | The problem is that _most_ vaccines affect menstruation; for | obvious reasons the uterus is a hotbed of immune activity in | the human body. | bamboozled wrote: | I think the warning on the packet should've said that? | abathur wrote: | I think (at least) three big problems intersect here: | | 1. the sci/med establishment seems to have some ongoing ~bias | issues that I don't fully understand when it comes to listening | to and taking lay people seriously (especially women) | | 2. it's hard to do complex synthesis of relative risks and | rewards across different studies measuring different things for | different reasons | | 3. we've had a lot of uninformed and malicious actors splashing | about in the information ecosystem | | It's a two-way street. Researchers and public health officials | both need to take women seriously _and_ they need to have faith | that they can research or discuss details like this frankly | through their normal semi-public publication channels without | being afraid that people who don 't grok or don't care about | the nuance of their research will use it as an info-cudgel to | induce FUD that ruins lives. | | To toss in the requisite anecdata, my sister got pregnant this | past fall. She was due for a booster but FUD about it hurting | the baby swayed her mind. She got omicron in late December, | post-covid complications nearly took her and the baby in late | February, and she had to live in the hospital until she | delivered in June. | gjsman-1000 wrote: | > To toss in the requisite anecdata, my sister got pregnant | this past fall. She was due for a booster but FUD about it | hurting the baby swayed her mind. She got omicron in late | December, post-covid complications nearly took her and the | baby in late February, and she had to live in the hospital | until she delivered in June. | | The tricky thing with this though is that, _what if_ there is | an unknown side effect due to lack of research that _could | have_ hurt the baby (how many years of research have boosters | had?), and she didn 't experience that side effect but | unwittingly chose a different evil? | c7DJTLrn wrote: | Many people had concerns about the vaccine rollout. Not because | we were worried about some 5G nanoparticle Bill Gates | conspiracy nonsense but because of the potential unknown side | effects. Doing a trial on a few hundred thousand and then | rolling out to billions is like testing your changes locally | and then pushing them straight to production. | | "But human bodies are not anything like software dev" I hear | you say. You're right. Biology is way more complicated and we | know less about the mechanics of our own bodies than the | computers we designed. | | If we go forward assuming everything we do is infallible and | silencing anybody with concerns, someday we will have a real | disaster. | planarhobbit wrote: | > Biology is way more complicated and we know less about the | mechanics of our own bodies than the computers we designed. | | We don't know much about that either, to be fair. | [deleted] | slg wrote: | This lack of foresight is not something specific to this | vaccine. It is the male bias ingrained in most western | medicine. Due to fear of how experimental medicines will impact | fertility and pregnancy, males are usually overrepresented in | clinical trials which makes female specific side effects much | harder to detect. | brightball wrote: | I'd accept the male bias approach for almost anything except | the Covid vax. | | There was a huge segment of society angrily screaming at | everyone that everything was perfectly safe, if you didn't | take it you were anti-vax and wanted to kill grandma. It was | absolutely insanity on every social media channel. I'm sure | some nuanced bits were lost in the noise, but it was | virtually impossible to openly discuss even hesitation to | vaccinate, much less complications. | | We've heard from 2 local people in our small community who | had family members die within 24 hours of vaccination. They | were afraid to talk about it because of the blow back that | came from anyone mentioning complications. A scary side of a | lot of people came out and it's permanently affected my | perception of a great many. | | Maybe there was a male bias in the clinical trials, but I | have a hard time believing any information about | complications would have been released or accepted at that | time. | planarhobbit wrote: | In my social circle it was women that were the most vocal on | both sides of the issue. The men were mostly quiet and going | along with whatever the wife or whoever wanted. | jelliclesfarm wrote: | I agree. This is something that needs discussion. | enqk wrote: | When people first talked about it, I was hearing scientists | saying that both other viruses and vaccines often change periods, | and thus it wasn't surprising/alarming | sschueller wrote: | Since the intent of the vaccination is to trigger an immune | response very similar to the virus I think we should assume | that all side effects the virus can cause could also be seen in | vaccine trials. | | The only symptom that I have yet to hear from the vaccination | is loss of smell/taste. | dragonwriter wrote: | > Since the intent of the vaccination is to trigger an immune | response very similar to the virus I think we should assume | that all side effects the virus can cause could also be seen | in vaccine trials. | | If you define "side effects the virus can cause" (a term that | usually is meaningless, "side effects" are unintended effects | of a therapy, and thus deoebd on both the therapy and what it | is intentionally used for) to mean "effects associated with | the immune response to the virus" this is true by definition, | but if you mean "symptoms of infection" it seems improbable. | | > The only symptom that I have yet to hear from the | vaccination is loss of smell/taste. | | A lot of what you hear is reports of events _after_ | vaccination that have very little effective filtering for | whether they are caused by the vaccination or some other | cause (including COVID infection.) | mk81 wrote: | ETH_start wrote: | Is the reference to "people" instead of "women", in "currently | and formerly menstruating people", a new trend in academia? | magneticnorth wrote: | In this study in particular, the fact that there was | breakthrough menstrual bleeding for trans men and others who | have been hormonally preventing their periods for years was one | of the particularly interesting findings, imo. | christkv wrote: | It's the anglo-sphere they've lost the plot. It's hard to take | a study that splits data into white and the rest seriously as a | scientific study. I was unaware that africans, South Americans | and Asians were significantly different to "white" people to | make a difference needed to be pointed out. | | What exactly are they suggesting. That the vaccine was | engineered to have a more negative effect on non-white women? | nerdponx wrote: | Medical outcomes are substantially and consistently different | for different racial groups in the USA. It's in part a proxy | for economic status. It makes sense to control for it. | throwaway406382 wrote: | The lead author is in women's studies, not real science. | | I quote from their abstract: "...among a convenience | sample...39% of people on gender-affirming hormones" | | convenience sample means "I asked my friends on social media" | | And 39% on gender-affirming hormones! Yes, I know trans is all | the rage now, but it's not 39% of the population! It's a highly | biased sample. | christkv wrote: | I have to wonder that the insistence of boosting so often might | lead to the inverse effect desensitising the body to the proteins | just like what happens when you vaccinate against allergies, | possibly leading to worse illness than if you did not boost. | | The weird insistence on anti-body levels is another weird thing, | just plainly ignoring immune memory. | | I suspect that we are not seeing grave illness anymore in most of | the population due to the immune naive population being very low | and the few people dying now are in the traditional old age and | immune compromised categories that also die by other respiratory | viruses under similar circumstances. | | Reading the science so much is fumbling in the blind (over 2 | years into this). They are still pushing for under 5s to be | vaccinated in some countries even though at the efficacy of the | vaccine is less than 40% something that would be considered a | failure in any other vaccine development and knowing the groups | it he lowest risk group there is. | | And before you call me anti-vaxer I had two doses of Pfizer and | have had covid 3 times. | manwe150 wrote: | Presumably that has not been a primary concern, since other | vaccines also have historically had regular boosters and | haven't seen that happen (referring to Tdap, rabies, or flu | shots) | | Flu vaccine has historically also been around 25-50% effective, | and is still recommended and paid for by insurance, since the | benefit is measured positively to you. So there is some | precedent for disappointing numbers still being promoted for | their small estimated benefits in net. | christkv wrote: | Sure once a year for flu shots with different strains. This | is the exact same protein again and again. Nothing like this | has been done before outside of allergy vaccines from what my | allergist told me who is to say at the very least skeptical | about it. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-07-17 23:00 UTC)