[HN Gopher] Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title ___________________________________________________________________ Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title Author : CawCawCaw Score : 717 points Date : 2022-07-20 11:03 UTC (11 hours ago) (HTM) web link (chess24.com) (TXT) w3m dump (chess24.com) | ghostly_s wrote: | Wow, this site's GDPR cookie nag exhibits the worst dark pattern | I've seen in the genre, and that's saying something. | SeanLuke wrote: | It might be worth mentioning a famous abdication which caused a | lot of consternation, albeit in another game. I love this story | but may have gotten some details wrong. | | Marion Tinsley was world checkers champion from 1955-1958, then | took a break, then again from 1975-1991, when he resigned in | protest (at age _64_ ). He was utterly dominant; indeed it is | hard to think of a competitor in all of history more dominant | over his sport or game than Tinsley. | | In 1990 Tinsley decided to play Chinook, the best checkers | computer program in the world. Chinook had placed second at the | US Nationals so it had the right to enter the world | championships, but the US and British checkers federations | refused to allow it. | | So Tinsley resigned his title. Tinsley then played Chinook in an | unofficial match (which he won). | | This power play really stuck it to the federations: nobody wanted | to be named the new world champion knowing Tinsley was fully | capable of crushing them. Eventually everyone came to an | agreement to let Tinsley be the "champion emeritus". | | Tinsley played Chinook four years later, at age 68, still | probably the best player in the world. But in the middle of the | match he complained of stomach pains and withdrew after only six | games (of 20), all drawn. Tinsley's pains were real: he later | died of pancreatic cancer. | moffkalast wrote: | Chinook was obviously playing the long con. Knowing Tinsley's | weakness was his humanity, so it continued to draw until his | frail human body succumbed to the forces of nature, thus | winning once and for all. | tmjwid wrote: | It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is | not a weakness, that is life. | TylerE wrote: | Not in checkers. The Chinook team later proved it is a draw | if both players play perfectly. | RJIb8RBYxzAMX9u wrote: | In the context of the GP quote, Data did ~~achieve | victory~~ busted him up, in a sense, by playing for a | draw, so... | | [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIRT6xRQkf8 | cortesoft wrote: | Are you saying he busted him up? | thaumasiotes wrote: | Not at all true in general; consider tic-tac-toe. | hangonhn wrote: | One of my favorite quotes of all time. | solardev wrote: | Whoosh | moffkalast wrote: | Nah, he's quoting a TNG episode where Data does the exact | same thing. | solardev wrote: | Ah,oops, my whoosh! | allenrb wrote: | Data may have said it in TNG, but pretty sure this | originated with the 1983 film "WarGames" | (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WarGames). | fknorangesite wrote: | It was Picard _to_ Data: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4A-Ml8YHyM | | The WarGames "the only winning move is not to play" quote | is about mutually assured destruction; a rather different | lesson than the one Data learns in 'Peak Performance'. | Ansil849 wrote: | The only winning move is not to play. | danuker wrote: | If you have a few hours to kill, here is a game the situation | reminds me of: | | https://www.decisionproblem.com/paperclips/ | ndsipa_pomu wrote: | "If you wait by the river long enough, the bodies of your | enemies will float by." | gralx wrote: | > ... it is hard to think of a competitor in all of history | more dominant over his sport or game than Tinsley. | | I've got another one: famous hold 'em poker player Stu Ungar | never lost a game of gin rummy. Utterly dominant. | treis wrote: | Sounds like an urban legend. Gin rummy has too much luck for | someone to have a perfect record. | bohadi wrote: | It turns out Checkers was solved, for perfect play, in 2007 if | anyone was wondering. | | https://webdocs.cs.ualberta.ca/~chinook/publications/solving... | Arocalexi wrote: | All the links are broken on that webpage. | OskarS wrote: | By Chinook, actually. The computer science Jonathan Schaeffer | became obsessed with solving checkers, because it was the | only way to prove that Chinook could've beaten Tinsley in a | fair game (as Tinsley passed away before Chinook could defeat | him on the board). | aaronmcs wrote: | There is a great book that the main author of Chinook wrote | about this. It's called One Jump Ahead[0] and it is a great | combination of technical info about the development of Chinook | as well as a kind of mini-history of competitive checkers. | Strongly recommend! | | [0] https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-0-387-76576-1 | fffrrrr wrote: | This is really a riveting book. You don't need any interest | in checks or computer science to enjoy it. | RJIb8RBYxzAMX9u wrote: | Yes I read the book decades ago and it was indeed excellent. | IIRC, the technical details are probably too light for the HN | crowd, but it was the biographical stories that had | interested me. | | For an even shorter, and lighter, read on checkers engine, I | recommend Blondie24[0]. | | [0] https://www.amazon.com/dp/1558607838 | [deleted] | [deleted] | ihateolives wrote: | Where do I sign up for your daily checker facts newsletter? :) | ProAm wrote: | Please dont turn this into Reddit. | moffkalast wrote: | That's a drake meme if I ever saw one. | | No -> Fact checkers | | Yes -> Checker facts | mattnewton wrote: | Surely you want fact checked checker facts? | kif wrote: | Only checkers fact-checker checked checkers facts. | kwertyoowiyop wrote: | I'm not the fact checker I'm the fact checker's son. I'll | be checking facts till the fact checker's done. | fdeage wrote: | > He was utterly dominant; indeed it is hard to think of a | competitor in all of history more dominant over his sport or | game than Tinsley. | | Very interesting comment. This sentence about dominance in a | field made me think of Stu Ungar, who dominated Gin Rummy so | completely that he had to switch to Poker (where he became a | 3-time world champion) to meet interesting adversaries. | | I couldn't find an exact reference for the following quote, but | still: "Some day, I suppose it's possible for someone to be a | better No Limit Hold'em player than me. I doubt it, but it | could happen. But, I swear to you, I don't see how anyone could | ever play gin better than me." | throwawaycuriou wrote: | Along the same lines of utterly dominant and lesser known, | Jahangir Khan in the sport of squash. Most famously for 555 | consecutive victories. | tialaramex wrote: | > "Some day, I suppose it's possible for someone to be a | better No Limit Hold'em player than me. I doubt it, but it | could happen. But, I swear to you, I don't see how anyone | could ever play gin better than me." | | An approximately optimal strategy for Limit Heads Up was | determined: http://poker.srv.ualberta.ca/ is a Limit | solution. | | Machines don't play No Limit perfectly, but they're good | enough to have beaten the best humans available when they | last tried, so I expect if Stu had lived long enough they'd | beat Stu too. | | Interestingly Gin Rummy is not seen as a major AI research | target. I found some undergraduates playing with relatively | simple AI approaches for Gin Rummy as basically a getting | your feet wet exercise, but this is apparently not in the | context of "Here's what the grown-ups did" but rather "Nobody | is exploring this, so whatever you do is actually novel". So | there's a real opportunity if somebody is interested. | q7xvh97o2pDhNrh wrote: | Fascinating character. I ended up reading the whole Wikipedia | article [1] because of your comment. | | Sounds like he was very skilled _and_ continuously getting | better -- which is of course impressive. At the same time, | his overall life story turns out to be tragic. Two choice | quotes from the article really jumped out for me: | | > Ungar told ESPN TV... that the 1980 WSOP was the first time | he had ever played a Texas hold'em tournament. Poker legend | Doyle Brunson remarked that it was the first time he had seen | a player improve as the tournament went on. | | > Ungar is regarded by many poker analysts and insiders as | one of the greatest pure-talent players ever to play the | game. But on the topic of his life, Stu's long term friend | Mike Sexton said "In the game of life, Stu Ungar was a | loser." | | [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stu_Ungar | xhevahir wrote: | After reading that Wikipedia article I'm reminded of a | episode of Law and Order: Criminal Intent that was almost | certainly inspired by Ungar's life: | https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0799186/ . The character appears | in two episodes, although the second one isn't that great. | RockyMcNuts wrote: | there's a (so-so) movie - | https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0338467/ | | when the show Billions did a poker game they used a famous | Stu Ungar hand https://somuchpoker.com/calling-with-ten- | high-stu-ungar-vs-m... | | (but OMG that game was so cringey for so many reasons, you | don't get to call time and go talk to your therapist in the | middle of a hand) | toolslive wrote: | About being dominant. What about Raymond Ceulemans ? From the | wikipedia page: Billiards player, having won | - 35 World Championship titles (23 in three-cushion + 12 in | other carom disciplines) - 48 European titles (23 in | three-cushion) and - 61 national titles. | agumonkey wrote: | He died in Humble. | OskarS wrote: | I love this story so much. This The Atlantic article telling | the full tale is a favorite of mine [1] | | It's hard to overstate how incredibly dominant Tinsley was. In | his entire career, he never lost a match, and only ever lost 7 | games (two to Chinook). That is out of maybe tens of thousands | of games. He was a mathematician by training and taught at a | historically black university. He was also deeply religious and | a lay minister at a black church. He famously described the | difference between chess and checkers like this: "Chess is like | looking out over a vast open ocean; checkers is like looking | into a bottomless well." | | I could just quote the entire article, but I'll just leave it | at this passage: | | > _The two men sat in his office and began the matches, | Schaeffer moving for Chinook and entering changes in the game | into the system. The first nine games were all draws. In the | tenth game, Chinook was cruising along, searching 16 to 17 | moves deep into the future. And it made a move where it thought | it had a small advantage. "Tinsley immediately said, 'You're | gonna regret that.'" Schaeffer said. "And at the time, I was | thinking, what the heck does he know, what could possibly go | wrong?" But, in fact, from that point forward, Tinsley began to | pull ahead..._ | | > _The computer scientist became fixated on that moment. After | the match, he ran simulations to examine what had gone wrong. | And he discovered that, in fact, from that move to the end of | the game, if both sides played perfectly, he would lose every | time. But what he discovered next blew his mind. To see that, a | computer or a human would have to look 64 moves ahead._ | | Tinsley was simply one of the most remarkable human minds of | the 20th century. I'm happy he finally got a challenger that | was worthy of him (as no other humans could even come close), | but it also seems fitting that he was never officially defeated | in a real checkers match. Rest in peace. | | [1]: | https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/07/mario... | Scarblac wrote: | Did he ever talk about international draughts? It is | essentially checkers on a 10 x 10 board, rather than the 8 x | 8 that checkers is played on. | | I wonder how much more resistance he would have had in | draughts. | stolenmerch wrote: | I just read this story in Jordan Ellenberg's book, "Shape: The | Hidden Geometry of Information, Biology, Strategy, Democracy, | and Everything Else" as part of the section on decision trees, | evaluating state, etc. Tinsley is the GOAT. | jonahbenton wrote: | Oh, intriguing title. How is the book? | stolenmerch wrote: | It's probably too basic for anyone who's taken even | college-level math courses, but I thought it was an | engaging summer read that got my imagination going. Easy to | read but also required some work. It was fun to imagine | examples of everyday life as geometric objects -- but you | probably have to be in the mood for that to enjoy it. | panda-giddiness wrote: | You skipped the best part of the story! | | > We [Chinook and the lead programmer] played an exhibition | match against Marion Tinsley in 1991. And the computer told me | to make this one particular move. When I made it, Tinsley | immediately said, "You're going to regret that." | | > Not being a checkers player, I thought, "what does he know, | my computer is looking 20 moves ahead." But a few moves later, | the computer said that Tinsley had the advantage and a few | moves after that I resigned. | | More details on this epic match from Wikipedia: | | > The lead programmer Jonathan Schaeffer looked back into the | database and discovered that Tinsley picked the only strategy | that could have defeated Chinook from that point and Tinsley | was able to see the win 64 moves into the future. | | --- | | https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/science/short-history-ai-sc... | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_Tinsley | thaumasiotes wrote: | > and Tinsley was able to see the win 64 moves into the | future. | | It's more likely that Tinsley was able to see a winning | position much closer to the present than that, without | bothering about the details of how exactly the winning | position 6 turns in the future converted into an actual win | 64 moves in the future. | cupofpython wrote: | the point is that his winning position was a 64 move | convert and he was correct. Lots of players believe they | will end up in a winning position, but overlook something | while "not bothering with the details". | | it's less about how much he calculated in that moment and | more about the accuracy of his confidence and the work he | had to have put in alongside his talent prior to that | moment to achieve that confidence and back it up. | thaumasiotes wrote: | > it's less about how much he calculated in that moment | and more about the accuracy of his confidence and the | work he had to have put in | | That is a matter of opinion. Looking a certain number of | "moves ahead" is an important metric in game engines and | also something that human players will tell you that (1) | they are consciously doing and that (2) is important to | them. So it's worth discussing on its own terms. | Closi wrote: | Eh, sometimes you aren't 'looking ahead' that many moves, | just that you can calculate the number of moves from a | known-winning position. | | This is why chess programs usually say "mate in 24" but | humans would more likely just be looking a few moves | ahead to get in a 'winning position' which they know is | an eventual checkmate. | | I'm not good at chess, and don't calculate more than 5 | moves ahead, but have 'spotted' a mate 20 moves ahead | just because you recognise that a certain position is | winning even if you don't know every single possible move | and response. | thaumasiotes wrote: | How does your comment differ from my comment? | Closi wrote: | I mean you don't actually have to 'look ahead' 65 moves | to know that there is a winning move, even if that move | is 65 moves ahead. | | You can just go 'this move is winning, and I can infer | that because of these logical points'. This isn't really | 'looking ahead x moves into the future', you can just | know a position is winning and will cause a cascade of | moves of a predictable-length that will end in an | eventual checkmate. | | If you call this 'looking ahead x moves' or not depends | on the definition I guess, but I just mean they might not | be actually evaluating / imagining all those positions | (because you can either use logic or pattern-match to | previous situations). | cupofpython wrote: | there needs to be work done and intuition developed in | order for a human to look any amount of moves ahead. we | do not look ahead in the same way a computer algorithm | does | | we look ahead in ways like "doing this leaves this area | weak, and the opponent has resources that can take | advantage of that, and i cannot intervene on those | resources in time" or "if i create a strong threat then | the opponent will be forced to react to it, here are the | ways they can react that make any sort of sense, here is | what i can do in each of those situations" | | they are not doing things like "let me simulate moving | every one of my pieces right now, and then every one of | my opponents pieces in response to each of those moves, | and then my options again, and review 10,000 possible | scenarios in my mind individually for the best min/max | situation" like a classical computer engine does. | | so i always find the "X moves ahead" phrase misleading at | best. but as i originally stated, it is useful to know | how many moves of perfect play are necessary for someone | to convert a winning position when reviewing the players | confidence going into that position. and even then you | dont know if they got lucky or earned that confidence by | looking at just the one game alone. Over the course of | their career the amount of time that their confidence | pays off or not tells the story there | thaumasiotes wrote: | > there needs to be work done and intuition developed in | order for a human to look any amount of moves ahead. we | do not look ahead in the same way a computer algorithm | does | | I mean, that's just plain wrong on both counts. You need | to do work to do a good job at looking ahead. You don't | need to do work just to be able to imagine what the board | might look like after a particular move is made. | | > they are not doing things like "let me simulate moving | every one of my pieces right now, and then every one of | my opponents pieces in response to each of those moves, | and then my options again, and review 10,000 possible | scenarios in my mind individually for the best min/max | situation" like a classical computer engine does. | | You don't understand what the computer is doing. Pruning | its options is just as important for the computer as it | is for the humans. | cupofpython wrote: | you're missing the point of my post. yes the computer | prunes, but fundamentally it is attempting to review all | possible scenarios indiscriminately as opposed to a human | who is trying to make some sort of sense of the position. | without work, as in developing an intuition for making | sense of the game, a human looking ahead doesnt provide | value. | | so im not sure why you think i was trying to say humans | cant move pieces around in their mind. | | you also completely ignored that i was mainly addressing | the scope difference of positions analyzed by a human | player vs a computer, and that the talking point was | someone looking "64 moves ahead" and trying to explain | that no this guy did not literally see all variations 64 | moves out - but that through (arguably more impressive) | reasonable human ability he was able to to be accurate | and confident in a decision that he had won while there | was still 64 moves of depth left in the game | tetha wrote: | It also strongly depends on the branching factor. | | Like, if you're in a chess midgame, there might still 6 | major pieces and 4 or 6 minor pieces and tons of pawns on | the board. It's tricky to calculate far into the future. | At each node, there's easily dozens of possible moves, | and 4-8 viable or not-horrible ones. That's becoming a | lot of possibilities to consider very quickly. | | In an endgame, there's like, 2 kings, 2 pieces and 4 | pawns or a similar constellation. There's 6 possible | moves, 3 of them immediately lose and 3 are worth | thinking about. 2 of them probably only have one possible | answer. Suddenly even an utter beginner like me can | calculate 4-8 moves. A master-level player probably knows | the endgame entirely, or can see 10 - 20 moves into it | easily, because the branching factor is a lot lower now. | hosh wrote: | That sounds a lot like Go Seigan in the Go world. Dude | was ahead of his time and developed a style of play that | was remarkably similar to AlphaGo. His intuitions on the | importance and usefulness of a position fueled his | fighting ability. | astrange wrote: | Maybe his opponents were too confused by his name being | Go. | whatshisface wrote: | People aren't like minimax, they can see 64 moves into the | future if there's something about them that fits into a | simple pattern. | thaumasiotes wrote: | Potentially. A ladder in go would match this description | if the board was large enough. I stand by my comment. | | Note that the first quote agrees with me: | | > Not being a checkers player, I thought, "what does he | know, my computer is looking 20 moves ahead." But a few | moves later, the computer said that Tinsley had the | advantage and a few moves after that I resigned. | | We know as a matter of literal truth that the computer is | looking 20 moves ahead, but it doesn't need 44 moves to | realize that it's losing, even though the other guy says | that recognizing the win would require looking 64 moves | ahead. That guy was wrong; recognizing the win didn't | require looking 64 moves ahead. He just had trouble | imagining other methods of recognizing a win. | stiltzkin wrote: | Clicky without AMP: | https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/short-history-ai- | school... | | You are welcome. | lpolovets wrote: | Jonathan Schaeffer, who led programming on Chinook, wrote a | book about the history of Chinook, the matches with Marion | Tinsley, and checkers in general. I read it a while back and | thought it was excellent, although it seems like cheap book | editions are hard to find now. https://www.amazon.com/One-Jump- | Ahead-Computer-Perfection-eb... | arbitrage wrote: | Fantastic write-up. Thank you so much. | jari_mustonen wrote: | Some ideas for rule changes that would make a draw less probable: | | 1. Make it so that repeating a position is not a legal move 2. | Remove castling as a legal move | | Or, if the rules of the game stay the same, change the tournament | format radically: | | 3. Force specific openings like they do in the computer chess | tournaments. Both players play as white and black. Select | positions that are far from equal. | parkingrift wrote: | I don't blame Magnus. It's a ton of preparatory work year after | year and I'm sure the idea of a rematch with Ian is not exciting | for Magnus after Magnus absolutely trounced Ian. | | In the end this might be the beginning of the end for the "world | chess champion." The game is moving online, and moving to rapid | or blitz. | veidelis wrote: | I wonder what Magnus' suggestions for the WC format are. It's | very well known that current classical format has the issue of a | lot of memorization/theory. To me the issue does not lie in the | time format as a lot of people here suggest, but the format of | the game. I would appreciate if a couple of chess 960 (Fischer | variation) games were added to current format to determine world | champion of classical chess. | haunter wrote: | He already talked about that 5 years ago | https://www.chess.com/news/view/magnus-carlsen-proposes-diff... | | Single elimination knock out format like some big sport events | (football/soccer World Cup, major league sport playoffs etc.) | | It can still be BO7/BO9 etc for example but it comes with more | randomness (initial matchups) | | He just hates the current everyone plays everyone league format | then the best score takes on the reigning champion (who didn't | even take part in the first round aka the Candidate's) | matsemann wrote: | Time to change the format. It's understandable you don't want to | spend your whole career preparing for these long matches all the | time. For the challenger it's 6 months of preparing, but for | Carlsen it would've been his 6th time of preparing for this in a | few years. | | They have also become less entertaining. 12 matches is long | (edit, 14 now), but no one dares to take any risks. Caruana was | just defensive and all games ended in a draw. Karjakin they both | at least won each their game, but still had to go to rapid tie- | breaks. And against Nepo it was a steamroll, understandably | meeting him again isn't that exciting. | | It's also almost impossible for a new person to get a chance. | Even Carlsen didn't like the format and didn't participate in the | Candidates for a few years, and when he first did he almost | didn't win it to be allowed to play the WC match. Even though he | clearly was the best player at the time. | | I wonder how this will affect the status of the title, when it's | in practice is now a title-fight between the second best players. | | Also what will happen to the hype in Norway? Each WC match has so | far been live streamed on all big news pages, biggest TV channels | etc. It will still be a Christmas tradition to watch the rapid WC | tournament I guess, but I'm afraid this will lead to less | coverage. But just to tell how big Carlsen is in Norway: This is | the top news on all outlets at the moment. | gentleman11 wrote: | Chess960 or other variants would be nice to mix things up over | time | V-2 wrote: | 12 games - or even 14, since the last WC (games, not "matches", | excuse the nitpick) isn't long, it's short. There's never been | a shorter format for chess WC. And this is precisely WHY | players don't take any risks - because dropping even a single | point means there won't be many chances left for equalising the | score again. | huevosabio wrote: | I would make the following changes: - Make the candidates be | the main event, the winner is WC. - score games as in soccer, 3 | points for a win, 1 for draw, 0 for lose. | | These changes increase the stakes, incentivize offensive chess, | allow the sitting WC to play all the best players rather than | one, reduces the time commitment to a single event for the | challengers, and allows the WC to partake in the most | prestigious tournament. | Andrew_nenakhov wrote: | > And against Nepo it was a steamroll, understandably meeting | him again isn't that exciting. | | The first half of the match wasn't even close to a steamroll. | It's just Ian broke mentally after that famous 6th game. The | candidate tournament showed that he had more than recovered | from that loss and I think he would be in a much better shape | to challenge Carlsen again. Also, with Carlsen's current | attitude, it is quite possible that he would be closer to | breaking first. (One may assume he already broke since he gives | up the title without a fight) | toolz wrote: | nepo at candidates was in my opinion favored to beat | magnus...he dominated the candidates harder than anyone else | has in the history of the candidate matches - and it was not | an easy pool of candidates, either. Sure, there were a lot of | sloppy games, but only a couple vs nepo - with one of them | being after the 1st place spot had been guaranteed. | | If nepo plays like he did in the candidates, I would not be | so quick to favor magnus. | tzs wrote: | > nepo at candidates was in my opinion favored to beat | magnus...he dominated the candidates harder than anyone | else has in the history of the candidate matches - and it | was not an easy pool of candidates, either. | | What about Fischer? The format was a little different then, | but here was his route to the Championship. | | 1. Won the Interzonal tournament 18.5/23 (+15-1=7). The top | 8 from the Interzonal then played a knockout series of | matches using a bracket system. | | 2. In his quarter-final match of that he beat Taimanov 6-0. | | 3. In his semi-final match against Larsen he also won 6-0. | | 4. In his final match against former world champion Tigran | Petrosian, he won 6.5-2.5 (+5-1=3). | | In the 21 games total that his candidates matches lasted, | he won 17 games, lost 1, and drew 3. If we include the | Interzonal it is 32 wins, 2 loses, 10 draws. In the | combined Interzonal and knockout matches he had a streak of | 20 consecutive wins against the world's top players. | | And then in the Championship against Spassky he won | 12.5-8.5 (+7-3=11) (and one of those loses was a forfeit | when he skipped the game over some complaint about the | playing conditions). | | Nepo's performance in this Candidates was pretty | dominating, but doesn't come anywhere near Fischer's level | of dominance. | toolz wrote: | You make a very strong argument, but if you take fischers | score vs the top 8 in the interzonal and double it, | fischer would've had 10/14 to nepos 9.5/14, which given | it was just 1 game vs the top 8 and given the ELO spread | was vastly more spread than current candidates | games(easily fischer had 100+ more ELO than the other top | 7 opponents) I think it's fair to say you could say nepo | was more dominant when compared to the interzonal | | granted it becomes more clear that fischer dominated in | the quarterfinals forward, but it still is worht pointing | out that his opponents weren't nearly as strong as nepo's | opponents, relatively speaking | | I imagine nepo's score would've been MUCH stronger if he | was playing 100-200 ELO points weaker opponents all | candidates. Instead nepo had 3 opponents with higher ELO | and his weakest opponents ELO was only 19 points lower | than his own... | | in summary, I think you're correct and I was wrong, but | I'm not so sure it's quite so clear-cut when you factor | in other variables | Andrew_nenakhov wrote: | > And then in the Championship against Spassky he won | 12.5-8.5 (+7-3=11) | | TBH in that match Fischer started his shenanigans about | demanding all sorts of things which most likely | unbalanced Spassky - who was known to be somewhat lazy - | so with all the political pressure and mind games he | likely decided that he doesn't care enough. | | The match was actually not that top-level chess as it is | presented in chess mythology. Reshevsky [1] said the | following things about it: | | _" True, there were several excellent games, but the | match as a whole was disappointing. It was marked by | blunders by both players. The blunders committed by | Spassky were incredible. In two games, for example, | Spassky overlooked a one-move combination. In the first, | he was compelled to resign immediately, and, in the | other, he threw away all chances for a win. Fischer was | also not in his best form. He made errors in a number of | games."_ | | ... and he is also very critical of how Spassky was | prepareding for the match. So a well-prepared Karpov | would likely have been able to dethrone Bobby, and I | think Fischer knew it, and it played a big part in why he | had forfeited the defence. | | [1]: http://billwall.phpwebhosting.com/collections/The%20 | Fischer-... | mda wrote: | Well Magnus destroyed Nepo in the previous match, I don't | see a reason why Nepo would be favorite this time. I think | his chess and mental fortitude in general is inferior to | Magnus. | | Personally I am not interested in this championship match | at all. | taneq wrote: | Does it count as 'breaking' if you're just tired of the game | and don't want to play any more? Surely it's OK to stop and | do other things eventually? | slowmovintarget wrote: | Magnus isn't stopping. He's playing chess everywhere else, | at tournaments all over the world. He's pursuing his goal | of a 2900 rating (he currently has the world record for his | peak rating, though he's dropped a bit from that). | | He's just not playing in the FIDE World Championship | because he dislikes the process. | piker wrote: | Not sure there will be much distinction in the history | books unless there's an accompanying rule change, etc. that | comes out of it. | dwighttk wrote: | It is both okay to stop and do other things eventually and | it also counts as 'breaking' | pverghese wrote: | So the only way for it not to be considered not | 'breaking' is by losing. That makes no sense | Andrew_nenakhov wrote: | Well, there is another way: you can die undefeated, like | Alekhin. | | Yes, _every_ championship title eventually goes to | someone else. | dwighttk wrote: | Um no. Losing is also breaking. Breaking doesn't have a | moral component, it is just losing. The world champion | isn't morally better than everyone, he just wins against | challengers. | BobbyJo wrote: | So no one can ever quit without it being considered | 'breaking'? If not, what would distinguish between | 'breaking' and not 'breaking'? | | Surely, if one _can_ quit without it being considered | breaking, resigning while on top is how. | Accacin wrote: | For me it's the intent at the time a decision was made. | BobbyJo wrote: | What intent constitutes 'breaking'? | Andrew_nenakhov wrote: | You can honorably lose while giving it all, like most | other champions did, except Fischer, who forfeited, and | Alekhin, who died while holding the title. | s1artibartfast wrote: | Yes, quitting is always breaking. It is just that | breaking isn't always a bad thing for the player | Enginerrrd wrote: | Yes, that's what people mean, almost by definition. In | highly competitive events, even a slight break in focus and | drive toward winning are often really problematic. Once | that wolf-like focus and readiness to fight is broken, a | competitor is usually done. | Bootvis wrote: | I think Magnus just changed focus to being the first | 2900. I bet the way the last match went was a bit of a | let down for him as well. | cupofpython wrote: | i have to imagine there are only so many 'tricks'/new | lines left for him to use to win games at that level. | revealing them on center stage for a single win is | wasteful of the resources he has. the WCC games get | studied by everyone, not only live with the worlds best | engines, but after the fact too. much better to use those | resources in tournaments where you can actually play a | lot of games with it before people really get a chance to | study it in depth. | | By resources i mean things like going into a position | that gives your opponent an incredibly small advantage | but is hard for them to play. It's one of the best ways | to win games. it's hard work to find those lines, and | he's been doing it for so long at WCC level it's not | surprising that he's tapping out against someone he's | already beaten. if you use a line in the WCC, it becomes | very risky to use it again - because if your opponent | studied it and plays it correctly then all you've done is | make it even harder for you to win the game. | | to reach 2900 he has to win games, not tie | Andrew_nenakhov wrote: | > that he's tapping out against someone he's already | beaten. | | Many observers overplay the importance of one match loss. | More than one chess champion title was taken by a | challenger who had lost in the previous attempt [1] - and | considering there was just a handful of champions, it is | a lot. | | [1]: Spassky and Kasparov have lost in their first | attempts against Petrosyan and Karpov. | cupofpython wrote: | while true, it is still fair to say Carlsen views nepo as | a waste of time. While it would be easy to dismiss this | as hubris - i think the bigger point is that he doesnt | gain anything from beating him again. It's not that Nepo | has no chance of winning. | | Magnus specifically mentioned Firouzja as an opponent | that he would consider playing the WCC against[1]. So | while not the most important factor in his decision, the | fact that Nepo won the candidates again and was the last | challenger before Magnus made the Firouzja statement | seems relevant. Also relevant is that the candidates | tournament concluded on July 5th and Magnus released his | withdrawal now in the same month. | | It seems to me like the challenger being Nepo was the | last significant piece of information towards his | decision. How specific it is to Nepo or a more general | feeling of Nepo being one of many people he doesnt feel | any personal benefit from playing against, who knows. | | [1] https://chess24.com/en/read/news/magnus-carlsen- | unlikely-i-w... | Andrew_nenakhov wrote: | > Magnus specifically mentioned Firouzja as an opponent | that he would consider playing the WCC against[1]. | | That is not how it works, and not how it is supposed to | work. This is hubris and disrespect to all chess players | in the world. For more than 100 years champions changed | each other in title matches (well, before Kasparov's | limitless ego created a decade of turmoil in Chess), with | just one exception by Fischer, and now Carlsen 'doesnt | feel any personal benefit'. :ThumbDown: | Scarblac wrote: | > much better to use those resources in tournaments where | you can actually play a lot of games with it before | people really get a chance to study it in depth. | | That doesn't exist anymore, any game Carlsen plays is | studied in depth by the world immediately, and especially | by his opponents. Same for other top grandmasters. | Retric wrote: | Depends on the game, but people will often come back much | stronger after a ~6 months break. | | It's a mix of having a new perspective, dealing with | stress, and having time to heal etc. This is one of the | reasons most sports have an off season. Even if | basketball could easily be played year round, the game | would suffer. | SamoyedFurFluff wrote: | Even wolves are only focused during occasional hunts. | They also play, raise their young, mate, sleep, and care | for their sick and injured. | noirbot wrote: | I think the difference, and what Carlsen is doing well in | this case, is just backing out now instead of trying to | defend his title and then getting 5 games in and just going | "I hate this and I want to leave. I forfeit". | | That would look even worse for him, and be unsatisfying for | his opponent and the public. In this case, he realizes he | doesn't have the passion for this event any more, so he's | doing the best thing for the sport and just letting two | people who are still passionate about it compete instead of | doing the mental-sports version of playing injured. | dmurray wrote: | > It's also almost impossible for a new person to get a chance. | | > when [Carlsen] first did he almost didn't win it to be | allowed to play the WC match. | | These complaints are in opposition to each other! You can have | an open process which gives an outsider a chance to qualify, or | you can teleport the incumbent best player straight to the | final, but you can't have both. | | The current Candidates structure balances it pretty well, in my | view. Most of the 10 players who have a realistic chance in a | match reach the final 8, but it often features one great-but- | not-elite grandmaster who had a good tournament, and it's | theoretically open to even the worst amateur who shows up to | his Continental Championship and performs well in that followed | by the World Cup. | matsemann wrote: | The candidates _being_ the WC deciding event would solve both | of them, though. So while the points are in opposition to | each other, a new format could find a better way to solve it | than now, in which both things happen. | enugu wrote: | How about a very short gap, say a week, after the Candidates | tournament to the Championship match to avoid long opening | preparations? | NhanH wrote: | That just forces 8 players in the candidates to do their | preparation BEFORE the tournament. | | Economically speaking, that won't be enough time for | advertising, setting the venue or getting sponsor up either. | It matters who plays in the WCC match before you can do | either of those things. We still don't know when or where the | match for this cycle will happen even now. | chongli wrote: | Not only does it force the 8 players to prepare before the | tournament, it forces the champion to prepare against all 8 | players, making their task even worse! | _ph_ wrote: | Worse or, and that would be the point of the change, | entirely different. You would do some study of all | possible opponents, but you obviously can no longer do so | much focus on the single player. Which means, the better | preparation would just to prepare your best chess against | whomever you are going to play. Which could be much more | fun and make the games more interesting, as there is much | more space for tactical surprises. | taude wrote: | I know next to nothing about competitive chess, other than | watching the Magnus documentary about a younger Magnus. What | kinds of things are chess players doing to prepare for a match | for 6 Months? Is there something they're memorizing, studying | video (what would they be looking fro)? I'd have always just | thought they were good to play at any time. This sounds super | stressful. | matsemann wrote: | In a normal tournament, you meet so many different people | (and you often don't know in advance exactly who you will | meet of all the participants), so it's hard to specifically | prepare. For a match of this kind, however, you know your | opponent will prepare specifically against you. So you kinda | have to do the same. | | That entails analyzing all of their games and finding | defenses and weaknesses. But also trying to find new | novelties in the openings etc. And since the opponent will do | the same, you yourself have to prepare defenses for lots of | potential new openings 16 moves deep or so. It's an insane | amount of studying. | | Of course, that pays off for future games outside the match | as well. But when you know your challenger will spend half a | year on this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to beat you, you | probably have to do the same. So have to say no to everything | else. | kamaal wrote: | Say a player just rote memorised moves from a chess engine | and just played it. Would that be considered cheating? | Scarblac wrote: | No. But the opponent will do that too. The trick is to | find a move that is just slightly worse according to the | engine, but that gives a complicated position that's hard | to figure out behind the board. That you will then learn | all the in and outs of, and memorize. And then hope you | get it on the board... | | They need hundreds such ideas for a match. | matsemann wrote: | No, that's part of the preparation. But remember that you | have around ~16 moves to choose from each time it's your | turn. And you have to prepare a response for all the | possible choices your opponent can make. | | This of course gets unwieldy _very_ fast. 16^5 is already | over a million different games. | mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: | Actually it's so much worse than that. Chess has a | branching factor of ~30, not 16, IIRC. A lot of those | moves will be nonsensical though. | somenameforme wrote: | That is correct. And of course you don't just need to | prepare for your own moves, but also consider your | opponent's moves. So "just" 6 moves = 30^12 = about 500 | quadrillion possibilities. | | Though, like you said, the vast majority of those moves | will be somewhat nonsensical though. | timerol wrote: | That is the strategy of opening preparation. For the most | common openings, GMs often have a 20 move sequence | memorized. The time limit of chess matters a lot, so the | strategy is to break your opponent out of their | preparation with a move that is unintuitive or considered | untenable, after you have determined the ways in which it | is actually better than widely considered. | | The ideal at top level is to get to move 20 or so with a | slightly better position, essentially all of your time | (because you've been playing memorized moves), and your | opponent already having used most of their time. | babarock wrote: | As long as it's all in memory, that's fair game. | Everybody at the high level is using engines for | training/preparation. | | This is balanced by the fact that the sheer number of | possible lines is huge. Too big for any human to | "remember" them all. | | It's also not enough to memorize "good" moves from an | engine perspective. "Good" engine moves and "good" human | moves are different things. | | An engine might see a move as "good", because it | calculated 50 moves down the line and found an advantage. | This means that you'd have to play the next 49 moves in a | very precise manner to reach this advantage. One way to | think about it, is that there are multiple positions that | are analyzed as "draw" by en engine, but 9 grandmasters | out of 10 will see one side winning. That's because one | side would need to play perfectly, while the other side | has much higher tolerance for mistakes (engine assume | perfect play on both sides). | | TLDR: engine is fair game, during preparation. It's a big | deal, it transformed high level chess, but it didn't | break the game, and is unlikely to do so. | moomin wrote: | It isn't, partly because you needed to predict the | scenario would come up and partly because your opponent | can do the exact same thing. | ChefboyOG wrote: | No, using engines to find lines is a common way to | practice (at least, that's my understanding. Obviously, | I'm not personally a world class chess player.) | [deleted] | coremoff wrote: | That would depend on the opponent doing the same, and | picking the same engine and settings for their side too. | gliptic wrote: | No, that is exactly what they do in opening preparation. | jackmott wrote: | bluGill wrote: | the top 100 players in the world is a small list, and at | this level you don't need to worry about anyone below that | (until they get higher) as you are enough better than them | that you can beat them. Thus for tournaments you don't have | worry as you have already studied everyone you need to | worry about before the tournament. Odds are you know ahead | of time who is in the tournament and so you have a couple | weeks to study all possible opponents. | | Remember for the best players in the world chess is their | full time job. They spend 12 hours a day on the game. They | are earning enough from tournaments to support life. | throw7 wrote: | I remember Caruana mentioning how he wasn't prepared for how | much Carlsen "understood" him (not exact words from the | video, but something to that effect). | | It sounded sort of like a side mind game that Carlsen plays | on his opponents. It made it clear that Carlsen really | studies his opponents and not just their past games. | sgjohnson wrote: | > Is there something they're memorizing | | Yes. Their upcoming opponent's past games (including | analyzing them for strengths and weaknesses), and engine | lines mostly. | Scarblac wrote: | Going through all of opening theory to invent enough new | ideas that might give them a tiny edge, somewhere. And then | eventually memorizing what they found. | sgjohnson wrote: | > They have also become less entertaining. | | The classical World Championship matches have never been | entertaining to watch live. | | In fact they used to take 2 days for one game. | | > No one dares to take any risks. Caruana was just defensive | and all games ended in a draw. | | Chess, in theory, with absolutely perfect play, is a draw. It's | not a game of "risk" in classical time format. You can take | risks in blitz and rapid, but in classical you have (almost) | all the time in the world to calculate the line you're playing. | TomGullen wrote: | In theory, wouldn't the player who takes the first move have | a tiny tiny edge? Or is the second mover always able to | guarantee a draw if they play perfectly? | pred_ wrote: | Unless I missed something recent, it is not known whether | any player has a winning strategy (or a drawing strategy, | for that matter). It would be quite the discovery as well. | usrusr wrote: | It would be wild if it turned out that some of the 20 | first moves led into a tree that included a perfect | winning path for black while others were draw on | perfection: "take it, if you can, I bet you can't" | Scarblac wrote: | With connect-4 it's like that: playing in the middle on | the 1st move means the first player wins, playing | adjacent to the middle means the game will be drawn, and | starting further to the side means the second player wins | (all assuming otherwise perfect play). | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connect_Four#Mathematical_s | olu... | usrusr wrote: | Plenty of forced moves in that game, where there is only | one option to not lose immediately. I basically | sacrificed the last years of school math to a 10x8 | variation of that game, it was almost as if there were | two competitions in parallel, who would win and who could | call a game decided first. Declaring the other guy winner | before he even knew was almost better than winning (but | certainly not as good as declaring victory and then | explaining why) | KptMarchewa wrote: | Having a winning strategy for black seems impossible | though; the discussion is whether white have it or is it | a forced draw. | Someone wrote: | Why would that seem impossible? One could argue that | white has to open up his defenses first, allowing black | to pick the best response to that. | | In general, there's no guarantee of first mover's | advantage. For example, Hexapawn | (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexapawn) is a win for | black on some boards (https://web.archive.org/web/2005033 | 0222720/http://www.chessv...). Versions that are more | complex than chess and are a win for black may exist. | SamReidHughes wrote: | White could start with a knight move. Unlike Hexapawn, in | chess, white moving first provides an increase in | optionality for white, and the board positions are not | forcing white on some losing track, because white is free | to "burn" a move with many pieces by taking 2 moves to | get to the same place they could with 1 move. White can | use two bishop moves, or a pawn push to the 3rd rank | followed by the 4th rank, to turn around the initiative | early in the game. | SamBam wrote: | That would give black two moves in a row, which is a | different scenario, and might still be optimal for black. | fileeditview wrote: | Many think that perfect play from both sides will result in | a draw but there is no prove for that yet. So I'm reality | we do not know. | Tenoke wrote: | It's not a solved problem but our best players and best | computers perform better with white. The edge isn't tiny | either. | bluecalm wrote: | They don't anymore, at least not the computers. When you | let them start from normal starting position and provide | decent hardware and some time it's always a draw and has | been for a few years now. | sgjohnson wrote: | > always | | Not always. Almost always. | Scarblac wrote: | When have you last seen a decisive game from the starting | position by two modern engines on normal hardware? I | haven't seen one for many years. | bluecalm wrote: | No one is going to waste the CPU time running Stockfish | (or GPU with Leela) against each other at classical time | controls long enough to see a decisive game which might | never happen anyway so we will likely never know. I think | current Stockfish on a modern ThreadRipper with classical | time control will never be beaten. I am not 100% sure I | am right but I don't expect (but would love to!) to be | proven wrong. | sgjohnson wrote: | Stockfish won't solve it. We need a full game tree. | Stockfish is not designed to build a full game tree. | | Generating a full game tree would be a truly daunting | undertaking, and I can't even fathom how much memory | would it take. | bluecalm wrote: | I am not saying Stockfish is going to solve it. I am | saying it will not lose from the initial position. In | other words my hypothesis is that we already have a soft | solution to chess available. I can't prove it but I can | proceed accordingly in practice (in opening preparation | or correspondence games for example) and no one will | prove me wrong or exploit it. | tromp wrote: | Due to alpha-beta cutoffs, you don't need a full game | tree. But if you did build a tree with all legal chess | positions, it would have approximately 4.8x10^44 of them | [1]. | | [1] https://github.com/tromp/ChessPositionRanking | [deleted] | Scarblac wrote: | > In theory, wouldn't the player who takes the first move | have a tiny tiny edge? Or is the second mover always able | to guarantee a draw if they play perfectly? | | White cannot have a tiny tiny edge against perfect play. | | Either it is possible to force a win against perfect play, | or it's not. So white is either winning or the game is a | draw (or black is able to force a win against white's | perfect play, but that's a whole different level of | unlikely). | | When talking about perfect play, terms like "tiny edge" | lose their meaning. | FartyMcFarter wrote: | It's possible, although it seems unlikely, that white is in | zugzwang [1] on the starting position, in which case black | would have a win with perfect play. | | Chess is only solved for positions with 7 pieces or less | (and some configurations of 8 pieces [2]), so we're far | from knowing best play from the 32-piece starting position. | | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zugzwang | | [2] https://www.chess.com/blog/Rocky64/eight-piece- | tablebases-a-... | rocqua wrote: | It isn't known theoretically whether perfect play is enough | for black to force a draw. It is also an infinitesimal | probability that white starts off in zugzwang (i.e. all | possible moves are bad). | | However the consensus guess is that perfect play yields a | draw. | Gehinnn wrote: | Why is that the consensus guess? I could imagine that a | perfect play completely contradicts common chess theory. | | Just like we can efficiently find approximate solutions | for the traveling salesman problem (that are at most 50% | longer than the optimal solution), these heuristics have | not much to do with the optimal solution. | bluGill wrote: | Because when great players realize they have a position | that they connect win are still able to figure out how to | force a draw so they don't lose. | | > I could imagine that a perfect play completely | contradicts common chess theory. | | So can anyone. Nobody knows what perfect chess play is. | Our best guess though is that whatever your opponent | plays you can always force a draw before they can win. | bee_rider wrote: | That's an interesting point. | | Unfortunately it leaves us in the position of not having | much to go by, if expert experience doesn't help analyze | the game. | | I wonder how different a chess engine and optimal play | look for the reduced sized boards. | franknstein wrote: | There is a small chance that deep into the tree the first | to play gets into zugzwang first, meaning position with no | good moves. Is there any other scenario where playing black | would give you theoretical edge? | | So until proven otherwise it's still possible that its | theoretical win for white, theoretical draw or theoretical | win for black as i understand it. | Gehinnn wrote: | Zugzwang is the only way for white to lose. Without | Zugzwang and a winning strategy for black for chess with | Zugzwang, white could skip the first move and now has the | winning strategy. | franknstein wrote: | What do you mean skip the first move? Like play a neutral | move? Why would such a move exist? | bluGill wrote: | Skip your turn. Don't move anything at all. | | Zugzwang means that you would be better off not moving | any piece on your turn letting your opponent make two | moves in a row. There are a number of endgames that | depend on getting your opponent into a position where he | has only one legal move and by making it you can then | play the winning move. If your opponent could instead | skip his turn you have no ability to win the game. | franknstein wrote: | I know what zugzwang is. I was just asking what he meant | by 'skipping turns' because skipping turns by simply | refusing to make a move is illegal, so i was not sure | what point was Gehinnn trying to make. | Gehinnn wrote: | The question was if there is any other scenario where | black could force a win other than by forcing a zugzwang. | | I would say no by contradiction. Let's assume black could | win without zugzwang. Then white would win (and in | particular not lose) by skipping the very first move and | then playing blacks strategy (because now black has to | make the first move and by white skipping the first move, | the colors swapped). | | If white would not skip the very first move and play an | arbitrary move instead, white loses and black wins. | | But this is the very definition of zugzwang! Thus, black | can only win because of white's initial zugzwang, which | contradicts our assumption. | asdf_snar wrote: | I think I may share confusion with the other poster. I | don't understand the following step: | | > Then white would win (and in particular not lose) by | skipping the very first move and then playing blacks | strategy | | I understand the other comment, that there do exist | setups in which colors can be effectively switched by | e.g. 1. e3 e5 2. e4, but that requires cooperation on | black's part. How does white "skip" the first move? | Thanks in advance. | | Edit: it may be that the statement "without Zugzwang" | implicitly (or perhaps by definition) means you are | allowed to skip moves? If so, that clarifies my | confusion. | Gehinnn wrote: | Well, applying "zugzwang" means you only win because the | opponent has to do a move and cannot skip their turn. | | When black has a winning strategy, black already applies | "zugzwang" for white's very first move: Black only wins | because white has to make a move. If white could skip, | black would not win. | | > Edit: it may be that the statement "without Zugzwang" | implicitly (or perhaps by definition) means you are | allowed to skip moves? | | Yes. It's not well defined, but I'd say a non-zugzwang | win is a win (or rather a winning position) where you | would also win when your opponent can skip their turn. A | zugzwang win is a win that is not a non-zugzwang win. | YawningAngel wrote: | You can play e.g. | | 1. e3 e5 2. e4 whatever | | And you effectively have a king's pawn opening with | colours reversed | franknstein wrote: | Can black refuse this 'color switch'? It seems like he | can, for a while, by mimicking moves. 1. e3 e6 for | example. | | Does this strategy necessarily leads to provably losing | position? | Scarblac wrote: | Having that happen in one place deep in the tree wouldn't | mean much: black would need to be able to get such a | zugzwang (or other win) against _anything white does_. | Synaesthesia wrote: | AFAIK it's not a solved game so we cannot say with | certainty. | philipswood wrote: | Still an open problem. | | Unlike tic-tac-toe we're not certain if it is a win or a | draw for perfect players. | dane-pgp wrote: | To give an example from a game more complicated than tic- | tac-toe, it is known that the player who goes first in | Connect 4 can always win with perfect play if (and only | if) they play in the middle column on their first turn. | | The chess analogue to this would be that there is a | single opening move for white that a perfect player can | guarantee a win from, or maybe a limited set of opening | moves. | | In fact, there is a variant of chess where this the case, | namely "pawns-only chess", where 1.b4, 1.c4, 1.f4, and | 1.g4 are winning for white, whereas all other first moves | are a win for black with perfect play. | | https://chess.stackexchange.com/questions/8755/is-the- | result... | [deleted] | tobiasvl wrote: | > The classical World Championship matches have never been | entertaining to watch live. | | > In fact they used to take 2 days for one game. | | Come now. The WCC matches were entertaining to watch for | chess enthusiasts. Even when games took two days, people | would sit and analyze each position, and that was without | computers. | | They still do that, of course. Although chess computers have | taken some of the fun out of the analysis, I've been to | several live viewings of the recent WCCs at chess clubs and | bars, where a local GM would sit and comment on the position | and take questions and suggestions from the crowd. | | But the WCC matches have become less entertaining for chess | enthusiasts, since there is so much defensive play. There | isn't too much to analyze in yet another Berlin game. | | It's entertaining when someone makes a horrible blunder, but | not in the same way - there's little to analyze in a position | that's blundered. | | So I'd argue the classical WCC used to be entertaining to | watch live for chess enthusiasts, but now they're less | entertaining for chess enthusiasts. For "regular people", | they've never been very entertaining, except when there's a | spectacular blunder, which has never been very entertaining | for chess enthusiasts. | fouronnes3 wrote: | > Chess, in theory, with absolutely perfect play, is a draw. | | While this is highly likely and essentially agreed upon by | all experts on the matter, it's not proven yet. | asdajksah2123 wrote: | I don't see why anyone would agree to that. In fact, I can | see it being far more likely that chess experts believe it | ends in a win for white considering that today white is | favored, to the point where if offered a quick draw, black | will almost certainly take it (unless they need a win to | move up a rank in a tournament, etc). | sgjohnson wrote: | This is flat out false. Virtually all of the experts | agree on this, and in top engine and human play the | percentage of games drawn is increasing, not decreasing. | AlphaZero on autoplay @ 1 minute per move draws 98% of | the games. | | > if offered a quick draw, black will almost certainly | take it | | [citation needed], and 1200 elo games on lichess aren't a | valid citation | ChrisLomont wrote: | >AlphaZero on autoplay | | While Alpha Zero is good, this is not very good proof. | Alpha Zero is not perfect, so if there are tiny ways to | win that Alpha Zero misses, it will miss it on both sides | (being the same engine), so would never explore that | path. | | It's like claiming inbreeding will result in perfection | :) | nhumrich wrote: | Chess is still no-hard, so "proving this" will be near | impossible. The closest we have is statistics. I remember | watching a "bot battle." A chess tournament for bots only, | algorithms playing eachother. Nearly 70% of these games | ended in draw. | noSyncCloud wrote: | https://tcec-chess.com/ | | 70% draws is a very small number, really. Not conclusive | at all. | EvgeniyZh wrote: | TCEC is forced to choose very imbalanced openings to make | sure there are some non-drawn games. From starting | position it'd be 100 draws out of 100 (also all very | similar o each other) | adrianN wrote: | Chess on an infinite board is asymptotically difficult in | the worst case. Chess on an 8x8 board can be solved in | constant time. | sweezyjeezy wrote: | Not sure if this was sarcasm, but that's like saying NP- | hardness is no big deal because we only care about finite | problems. | adrianN wrote: | NP-hardness is indeed often not a big deal in practice | because NP-hardness is a statement about asymptotic worst | case complexity. In practice you have some finite size | problems that are often of average difficulty, not of | worst case difficulty. For example, we solve instances of | SAT every day, some of them quite large. Even humans are | able to solve many Sudoku puzzles, even though Sudoku is | NP-hard. | | If you hang with the right crowds (for example people | into software correctness), PSPACE completeness is easy | and you even solve undecidable problems every day. | sabageti wrote: | How Sudoku is NP-Hard? | CJefferson wrote: | If you generalise sudoku to a board with sides length, | with subsquares with sides length n, then sudoku is no | complete. | throwaway09223 wrote: | I solve the TSP every time I run errands. | dskloet wrote: | Chess on an 8x8 board is not NP-hard. That doesn't mean | it's easy but invoking NP-hardness is kind of | meaningless. | sweezyjeezy wrote: | Yes and saying a problem is finite is also kind of | meaningless. That narrows it down to everything except | infinity. I also did not say that chess is NP-hard, it | was an analogy. | [deleted] | bawolff wrote: | Like parent was saying - that is true of all problems in | practise since the earth has finite resources. That | doesn't make complexity classes a useless concept. | | In other news, no point in needing pi, because perfect | circles dont actually exist in the real world. | pessimizer wrote: | I don't think people are trying to claim it's unimportant | in general, to anyone, they're suggesting that it's | completely unimportant in this conversation about how | slow and boring championship chess matches are. | jstanley wrote: | The reason chess is hard to solve is not because it's NP- | hard (which it is not, being a constant-sized problem), | it's because chess is a big problem. | | It can simultaneously be true both that NP-hardness | matters, and that constant-sized problems can be hard. | sweezyjeezy wrote: | I never said chess was NP hard, it was an analogy. The | equivalent would be some kind of chess on an NxN or Nx8 | board I guess, I don't know how hard would be. | piva00 wrote: | Why hasn't it been done then? | adrianN wrote: | We haven't build enough Dyson spheres to power a computer | of the right size yet. | bluGill wrote: | There are more states to calculate than atoms in the | universe so it isn't possible to brute force the problem. | Maybe it can be solved, but it will require math. | sgjohnson wrote: | To be fair, on this scale, "the total number of atoms in | observable universe" is quite a small number. | | Even 52! comes pretty close to it, and that's just one | deck of cards. | | Saying there are merely "more" states is almost insulting | to the depth of a chess game :) | scaredginger wrote: | I invite you to sit down and solve it then | simiones wrote: | A hundred billion years is still constant time. That | doesn't mean it's doable. | Someone wrote: | I think no expert will claim it's a win for either player, | but I don't think all experts agree it's a draw. There will | be some that don't claim to know either way. | | (If they had to bet, I think all experts would bet on "it's | a draw", but some experts won't be wanting to bet, even if | they think that's almost certain) | aaron695 wrote: | > While this is highly likely and essentially agreed upon | by all experts on the matter | | Can you cite this? | | I can't see anything on this. | | It's not something a chess champion would know on their own | for instance. | | Basically you have to get a good understanding that the | advantage of being white can't be leveraged enough to win. | | Obviously it can't be proved, but to even get an idea will | be very mathematical or computational. | matsemann wrote: | I've found them entertaining to watch. But Norwegians are | master of slow-TV, so I guess that's why. They have good | experts that manage to explain it to normal people. | Interesting guests in the studio between moves. Interact with | audience through questions from chat etc. | | > _Chess, in theory, with absolutely perfect play, is a | draw._ | | I don't think that's solved, actually. | qw wrote: | > I've found them entertaining to watch. But Norwegians are | master of slow-TV, so I guess that's why. They have good | experts that manage to explain it to normal people. | Interesting guests in the studio between moves. Interact | with audience through questions from chat etc. | | I usually don't follow chess, but I still end up watching | the WC matches on Norwegian TV. They manage to make it | interesting and exciting. | KingOfCoders wrote: | If find it suspicious calling a match interesting when | people need to have "Interesting guests in the studio | between moves. Interact with audience through questions | from chat etc." - I always found that suspicious with the | NFL too. | dhosek wrote: | I love the idea of being somewhere that (a) what the | world chess champion does is big news and (2) there are | resources dedicated like this to the broadcast of chess | matches. American culture is just so ostentatiously | _mauvais ton_ in comparison with so many other countries | (my other point of comparison was being in England in '93 | and watching a game show where it was clearly a | competition of intellectual skills and the winner's prize | was a dictionary--I just cannot imagine that being on | American television). | sgjohnson wrote: | I do watch the WC matches myself, but definitely not | live. | __s wrote: | It isn't solved but it's pretty obvious. There's enough | drawn endgames where material advantage is insufficient to | win | | Antichess at least is a solved win for White | sweezyjeezy wrote: | > Chess, in theory, with absolutely perfect play, is a draw. | | True, but that doesn't mean that you can't treat chess like | other sports and try to incentivize wins - for example giving | win/loss/draw a 3:1:0 point ratio. The world championship is | not a good format to decide "who's the best at chess", and | anyway we already know who that is right now. Might as well | treat it as a spectator sport and add some drama in my | opinion. | dwighttk wrote: | How would point ratio help if every game is a draw? Maybe | if it was a round robin tournament that would help top two | players competing for wins against less highly rated people | and then drawing against each other. Like Liverpool and Man | City | arbitrage wrote: | My feel is that from a game theoretical approach, a 3:1:0 | scoring ratio would encourage enough players to at least | _try_ for a win sometimes that it would restore some of | the interest and competitiveness to the sport. | franknstein wrote: | Would you play tic-tac-toe for a win with that scoring | ratio? | somenameforme wrote: | This is an inappropriate analogy. Chess at the highest | levels is not drawish because the game is inherently | drawish but because the meta of it is. | | The easiest way to illustrate this is with openings, | though it applies throughout the game in different ways. | Against e4 the Najdorf defense was once the opening of | champions, being a major part of the repertoire of | players like Kasparov and Fischer. In modern times it's | an increasingly rare guest at the highest level. It's not | because it's considered unsound or even slightly dubious | - it's a rock solid opening that gives black real winning | chances. But the problem is it also gives him real losing | chances. It's complex, difficult to play, and if you get | outprepared by your opponent you may lose without him | even having to make a single move himself, which is | really one of the worst feelings in the world. | | So instead the meta has largely shifted to openings that | are more about minimizing risk where black, more or less, | aims for a draw - and usually gets it. Changing the | risk:reward ratios in a sufficiently extreme way is most | certainly capable of changing the meta. | sgjohnson wrote: | This implies that top-level players aren't trying for a | win. | somenameforme wrote: | An alternative is to have tie-breaks for every game, | playing increasingly rapid time controls until the result | is not a draw. | | 1. Classical game, win = 5 points. | | 2. Rapid game, win = 2 points | | 3. Blitz game, win = 1 point. | | 4. Armageddon game, win = 0.5 points. | | This point layout might backfire and make the classical | games even less interesting because the huge edge for | winning is probably going to motivate extreme do-not-lose | style play, which trends towards draws. But, nonetheless, | wins in classical should be weighted well above the tie- | breaks. | kzrdude wrote: | One thing they could change with the format, without changing | the format(!) is to schedule the game very close to the | candidates, say with four week's distance. | | That way the match is the same but the half year of prep is | gone. | SamReidHughes wrote: | That only takes prep time away from the world champion, not | the candidates winner. | Scarblac wrote: | They need to know who the players are so they can look for | sponsors willing to put up the prize money and organising | costs. The events are often sponsored by companies from the | home country of one of the players. Doing it before the | challenger is known makes the pool of potential sponsors too | small. | kamaal wrote: | For those of us who don't follow this closely, why is the | format such a problem? | | Is it because its stressful, and demands too much work and prep | from participants. | | Just asking as competitive sport at the top level be it chess, | football, or even swimming for that matter demands lots of work | and a kind of work ethic not easy for most of us. | chongli wrote: | The distinction is the fundamental difference between mental | and physical effort. | | An athlete can spend all day in the gym and then grab a | shower and roll into bed. They may be sore as hell from head | to toe but they will be so exhausted they can just pass out | and get a great night's sleep. They also get the benefit of | endorphins which make them feel good and rewarded for doing | their exercise. | | On the other hand, a chess player spending all day going over | variations and practicing is going to have a difficult time | sleeping with all of those lines and positions flying around | in their head. They will be mentally exhausted but still | active and alert. It is an absolutely miserable experience. | So to prevent it you need to cut back on the hours which | means spreading out the preparation over many | days/weeks/months. It can also get very boring because you | don't get the same rewards you get from playing and winning | games. The only reward comes when you finally get to the WC | match and then you actually have to win or it's utterly | heartbreaking. | zarzavat wrote: | It takes months of preparation to prepare for the world | championships, basically rote memorisation with a team of | people. If he doesn't do that, he will lose. | | This is time that could be spent playing tournaments. | | This would be okay if the world championships was every four | years, but it's every two, so a large fraction of Carlsen's | time is spent preparing for this one match that everybody | knows he's going to win anyway. | | It's similar to the way that many professional teams are | reluctant to allow their players to play in the Olympics (in | e.g. Basketball, Ice Hockey, and Olympic Football is | completely neutered). Carlsen clearly feels that the World | Championship is not important enough to sacrifice a large | chunk of his career for. | kamaal wrote: | >>Carlsen clearly feels that the World Championship is not | important enough to sacrifice a large chunk of his career | for. | | Which other tournaments are considered like the top levels | of Chess competition, and what are the criteria for being | the top chess player in the world(If not winning the _world | championship_ )? | matsemann wrote: | The criteria is probably their rating. Since they use the | ELO system, each game gives or loses points. So the | ratings are a good measure in how good you are over time | and meeting multiple opponents. | | And Carlsen absolutely dominates the others, and have | been the top rated player continuously for a decade. So | no questions about who is the best, WC title or not. | | Carlsen is right now 98 points above Nepo, the | challenger, which is an insane difference. | akyu wrote: | The format to the world championship in chess has | historically always been a point of contention, and the | current format is no exception. | | The Candidates tournament has some seemingly arbitrary | qualifications that players must meet, and you could argue | that the format doesn't necessarily produce the strongest | player to challenge the world champion. | | The World Championship match itself is problematic because it | gives the defending champion a fairly huge advantage, in that | they retain the title if they can draw out the match, | although more recently it goes to rapid chess tie breaker | rounds. So in practice the Championship is decided by these | tie breaker rounds, which doesn't really seem appropriate. | | Given the prep time players have and the engines available, | players go into these matches extremely well prepared and | draws over the board are quite a typical outcome unless | someone makes a mistake. | | I believe Magnus wants the Championship to become a knockout | tournament to reduce the advantage that so much prep time can | give. There is a big difference between prepping for a field | of 12 players versus prepping for a single opponent. | ycombinete wrote: | > The World Championship match itself is problematic | because it gives the defending champion a fairly huge | advantage, in that they retain the title if they can draw | out the match. | | This has not been the case for quite a while. All of | Carlsen's matches (Anand, Anand, Karjakjn, Caruana, | Nepomniatchchi) had tie breakers in the format, to | determine a guaranteed clear winner. The Karjakin and | Caruana matches were decided in this way. | LeChuck wrote: | The format is not a problem per se. It's grueling, sure but | that's what a word-championship match should be. Magnus | Carlsen just feels there's not much to gain anymore for him, | by defending his title. That's all there is to it I think. | bfuller wrote: | No idea their reasoning, but if I were a top football, | swimmer, or other athlete and knew that a computer could | outperform me even at my highest level would be pretty | disconcerting. | chalst wrote: | I guess swimmers have known that the performance of powered | aquatic vehicles runs circles around them on many metrics | for longer. | Gare wrote: | Not to mention some other mammals. | Cass wrote: | That's already true of most sports, though. There's plenty | of mechanical constructs that can move faster than the | fastest human. The challenge is to be the fastest human | using nothing but a human body, not to outrun a car or a | boat (or even a humanoid running robot, which I assume we | could build at this point, if anyone was interested in | putting enough money behind it.) | bfuller wrote: | Of course a human can't outrun a car. This isn't some | unprecedented idea, people have retired for this reason | before: | | https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50573071 | SpacePortKnight wrote: | Maybe a format with 60 minutes + 30 seconds increment from move | 40, could be more entertaining to watch than the current 90 | minutes for the first 40 moves, followed by 30 minutes for the | rest of the game, with an addition of 30 seconds per move | starting from move one format. | | Most rounds would finish in around 2 hours, just like several | e-sports games. Have 2 rounds a day and finish it in 8 rounds. | With a more e-sport like approach, chess could bring in even | more viewers and hence more sponsorships. | dalbasal wrote: | Chess' centre of gravity is increasingly online centred now. | Carlson himself has a lot to do with it. So do other | charismatic super GMs like Nakamura. | | A light hearted, unplanned and unadvertised naka-carlsen bullet | match can attract a _lot_ of viewers. They both stream, and | lots of other chess streamers will switch to watching and doing | commentary when these matches happen. | | They'll play silly openings like the double bong cloud and have | fun. | | Carlson's into this new egaming vibe. He's good at it, and it's | good for chess. Meanwhile, high-level classical is brutal. The | level is so high that the game is hard to follow. It takes | forever and is draining. Most games end in a draw. | | I feel like Fide should focus more on rapid, and get more | involved in the online scene. Maybe this is the opportunity. | | I suspect the most anticipated, spectator matches of the future | will be rapid matches and alt formats like team tournies (go | Norway gnomes). They're just more fun for everyone but your | cranky old chess instructor, and even she loves it in secret. | tux1968 wrote: | > They'll play silly openings like the double bong cloud and | have fun. | | It's kinda fun to see this referenced recently in a | television quiz show: | | https://youtu.be/aD2mUHeBIRA | dalbasal wrote: | Guggling.. gas! | cowmoo728 wrote: | You aren't kidding about classical games being hard to | follow. I'm a pretty strong amateur at about 2200 on lichess, | but some of the recent Candidates games are so dense that I | can't make sense of them without a computer analysis. With | blitz even when the super GMs play I can usually tag along | and figure out what's happening once I see an interesting | move played. | dalbasal wrote: | Exactly. | econnors wrote: | > A light hearted, unplanned and unadvertised naka-carlsen | bullet match can attract a lot of viewers. | | I'd bet a 20 game rapid series over 4 days between naka- | carlsen would attract more viewers than the world | championship. | whimsicalism wrote: | Viewership is not all that matters. I doubt it will happen, | but I certainly wouldn't cheerlead the death of very high- | level chess. | dalbasal wrote: | That's a bit strong. The levels attained by the likes of | Magnus is true art, and it's cool that the art has had | such a following for so long. | | I agree on fast chess being more fun, but hey now :) | MikePlacid wrote: | Isn't very high-level chess kind of dead already? I mean | - watching Karpov-Kasparov was watching two best players | in the world. But nowadays a match between human players | just clarifies which of the second-rate devices is better | than another. Or is it just me? | whimsicalism wrote: | Did the invention of artillery cause javelin throwing to | be dead? | MikePlacid wrote: | I do not know the name of a single javelin throwing | champion. But I know the names of chess champions... up | to Kasparov. | frisco wrote: | I mean ... yes? | ptudan wrote: | I don't think it will ever go away if chess is still | around. But perhaps it stops being the main viewership | draw | literallyWTF wrote: | Oh fuck yes it would. I rather have a classical 960 tbh | andrepd wrote: | Yeah, classical 960 would be amazing since it de- | emphasises preparation. | jasonwatkinspdx wrote: | I've thought for a while that someone should go hard on an | esports style lightning tournament. Basically, try to | recreate the energy that happens when an aggressive game | happens between chess hustlers and everyone crowds around, | but done as a stadium audience spectacle like esports. Big | stage lighting setup, music, live commentary, crowd roar | encouraged, etc. Besides a main event focused on rated pros, | have side tournaments and exhibition games with big | personalities. I think there's definitely a sizable audience | for something like this. | joshuamorton wrote: | Did you watch PogChamps? It had some great moments like | this: https://youtu.be/YyG6HtsaF0w | jasonwatkinspdx wrote: | Yeah, exactly. The concept would be to create that sort | of energy in the video stream production setting familiar | to lan esports where you've got the hype of a couple | thousand people behind it in person. I'm absolutely | convinced there's an audience for something like this, | and if you were reasonably deft in how you messaged it | people like Magnus would be falling all over themselves | to participate just for the fun of it. | deltree7 wrote: | Cricket went through a similar revolution and now we have a | single game that last 5 days (Tests) which is an intense high- | skill perseverance play, a game that last a whole day (One Day | Internationals) and a much shorter format (Twenty20) that last | 3 hours. | | All three formats are thriving with some superstars playing all | three formats and official World Championships being played in | all three formats | Someone wrote: | I don't see the test format as thriving. It often seems the | players don't have the patience anymore to play it, losing | games that they could have drawn if they had the perseverance | needed to try so. | | (For those who don't know cricket: if your opponent is | outscoring you heavily, there's no way to win the game, but | by playing defensively, there still is the possibility of | "not losing" the game (called a draw. That's different from a | tie, where both teams score the same number of runs. Ties are | extremely rare (about 1:1000 matches. See | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tied_Test), draws fairly common | (about 1/3 of all test matches)). Part of the charm of test | cricket is that trying harder to win a game also increases | the risk of losing it, so teams have to make educated guesses | as to whether to pursue that) | kamaal wrote: | >>It often seems the players don't have the patience | anymore to play it | | Not enough monetary incentive either, it doesn't pay as | well as T20. | | Second problem is bowling doesn't pay as well as batting. | And that brings only batsmen centric view to the game, | which is boring to watch after a while, even in T20. | kamaal wrote: | Cricket had a different problem. The game moved to be very | batsmen centric(pitch construction) for a good part of 90's | and 2000's. This caused most games to end in draws. Batsmen | would just play days to make records. Ricky Ponting even said | no Australian captain would allow the match to be played | purely for records and not for winning. | | This eventually happened in ODI's as well. It just all | reduced to batsmen playing purely for records. Competition | dried out. | | T20 suffers from the same problems, and is a big reason why | people are so burned out. I have barely watched any cricket | in years. | | In matches where is there is a good pitch, and something for | the bowlers, the test matches are super interesting to watch. | bluecalm wrote: | My view on this is that the current World Championship cycle | achieves the opposite of what it should achieve: | | 1)There are many tournaments where the best player is not allowed | to participate making them tournaments of second bests for no | reason other than determining who plays in the Candidates | | 2)Other tournaments, even those with long tradition, are poisoned | by the Candidates because many top players treat them as training | ground for the Candidates (hiding preparation or not playing very | seriously) or skip them altogether because the Candidates is more | important | | 3) Candidates tournament itself is hyped as the most important | event but it by design excludes the strongest player. If you told | someone outside of chess about it they would rightly think only a | complete moron could have come up with such system | | 4)Some tournaments with a lot of potential to be fun and | competitive (Grand Swiss, The World Cup) cause a lot of | controversy because some dinosaurs in the chess world think the | strongest player shouldn't be allowed to play. Fortunately saner | minds prevailed for now. | | What you end up with is a calendar full of events for the second | best players which influence all other tournaments in negative | way. | | Additionally tournaments with a lot of potential (Rapid World | Championship for example) are treated as an afterthought by FIDE. | 3 day very random event even though rapid chess if widely more | popular than classical among casual chess fans. | | FIDE does everything to prevent fans from having fun following | the game. Imagine half the tennis calendar excluding current | number 1 player from participating. It's so ridiculous and | obvious watching from the sidelines. Unfortunately a lot of chess | insiders literally don't care about the game popularity and think | the money they earn grow on trees (or come from the ground as the | only serious sponsors FIDE could attract are oligarchs and they | oil/gas companies). | | I am so happy Magnus is not interested in participating in this | shit show any further. His reasons might be personal but it's a | great chance more fun formats and tournaments take place and we | can all have way more interesting game to follow. | ourmandave wrote: | I feel like this puts a cloud over Ding vs Nepo. | | Like whoever wins, the title will have an an asterisk that says, | "Only because Magnus bowed out." | bionsystem wrote: | Ding had a really tough year last year, grinding his seat for | the candidates with his country in lockdown. If he wins it's | going to be well deserved in my opinion. | | Nepo really crushed it in the candidates, and frankly had a | couple of good games against Magnus last time before he | collapsed. If he wins I feel that there is some good merit as | well. | | Obviously a lot of it is subjective. Mainly, I think the | champion would have to beat Magnus in some future games or | matches in other tournaments before truly gaining everybody's | respect. | ginko wrote: | From the outside the champion system in chess seems so weird. I | know they do something similar in boxing, but there it sort of | makes sense because attending too many boxing tournaments isn't | exactly healthy. | pmontra wrote: | Many national go tournaments have a similar format in all of | the 3 countries it's worth talking about (China, South Korea | and Japan): the champion waits for the result of the challenger | tournaments and plays only the final series of games (3, 5, 7.) | | International tournaments tend to be shootouts with everybody | playing from the first round. | | You can get a picture of how they are set up by looking at the | tournament tables at https://www.go4go.net/go/tournaments/news | NhanH wrote: | Japan is the only country still have major tournaments with | champion vs challenger format. None of the big tournament in | China or South Korea has that type of game. | pmontra wrote: | I see. For example the Korean Kuksu had the | champion/challenger format until 2008. Then it was | discontinued in 2016 but that's another story. | | But China's Tianyuan is still champion/challenger (from | 2022): https://www.go4go.net/go/tournaments/news/16 | | I didn't check the others. | masklinn wrote: | > I know they do something similar in boxing, but there it sort | of makes sense because attending too many boxing tournaments | isn't exactly healthy. | | Also a boxing match is a maximum of 12 rounds over 47 minutes | (since 1982), not 12 games over 3 weeks. | [deleted] | ComputerCat wrote: | Wow, what an impressive run though! | modernerd wrote: | Good for him, and a great lesson for chess fans: | | Play the kind of chess that makes you happy, be it globetrotting | super-GM invite-only tournaments or 500 games of back-to-back | bullet on Lichess. | willhinsa wrote: | ...or play 250 hyperbullet games until 5:45 am during the | Candidates tournament when you have a game at 3 PM the next | day. | | https://www.chessdom.com/firouzja-prepares-for-nepo-with-the... | jpeter wrote: | Did the preparation pay off? | __s wrote: | No | zmgsabst wrote: | Hikaru kicking himself about that last game, now. | ourmandave wrote: | I wonder if Magnus wasn't inspired by Hikaru's zero-f's given | attitude, where he's just playing for fun or the challenge, | instead of titles. | Andrew_nenakhov wrote: | Abdicating the chess championship title by Carlsen without a | match is actually a dick move towards his eventual (and | inevitable!) successor, who would never be seen by a lot of chess | fans as the 'true' chess champion of the Steinitz-Lasker-etc | lineage - much like how to this day many people argue that Karpov | would have never been able to defeat Fischer and thus isn't a | true champion. | | (I personally think that Karpov would have beaten Fischer, and | that's the biggest reason why Bobby ghosted on everyone.) | Lapsa wrote: | he's just fucking with Naka :D | raptorraver wrote: | I understand his decision but still I'm disappointed. | ycombinete wrote: | Perhaps Magnus is going to pull a Kasparov and start his own | competing World Championship. | soneca wrote: | Can someone please explain to me (someone complete out of the | world of chess) why he doesn't like to compete in the World | Championship but likes to compete in other tournaments? | kriops wrote: | WC requires copious amounts of high-intensity prep, close to a | year from what he has said before, so this is a ROI thing for | Carlsen. He has spent half-ish (emphasis on the ish) of his | adult life preparing specifically for WC matches. | tgarv wrote: | Why does the WC take so much more prep than other | tournaments? Is it because of the format, or just the | pressure to win? | aaronblohowiak wrote: | Between candidates (the tournament) and the event (the | championship between current champ and challenger) there is | a large gap so the top two can have time to study each | other. Other tourneys you aren't putting in so much prep | about all your possible opponents because there are too | many of them. | fernandopj wrote: | In terms of preparing against your opponent, at their level | and with enough time to think over the board, one has to | know so much theory about many lines, that as white you're | forced to find "novelties", which are brand new or mostly | never played lines that might never come up in the game, in | the hopes of throwing your opponent of their preparation. | With black, you have to prepare a few opening lines and | know them so well as to avoid surprises and maximize | chances of at least a draw. This takes a lot of time and | energy and memorization becames a huge factor. When you | face many opponents, the ROI of deep studying a few lines | doesn't pay off against people who have a myriad of styles, | so memorization plays a lesser role; and you play many | tournaments so having a few bad ones isn't such a big deal, | comparing to playing for WC. | darkwizard42 wrote: | The format of world championships (almost all classical games | with very long time) mean that preparation is key to going far. | Additionally in modern chess with the way points are | structured, draws are increasingly common and even aimed for by | players when they sense they cannot eke out the win (and they | can set them up VERY far in advance at times). This means to do | well in the WC you have to prepare a LOT and with the format, | the games are more draining and more difficult to get through | (there are a number of stories of players who "break" mentally | or make critical errors in game 8+ just due to sheer | mental/physical fatigue). | | Just seems like the format is draining and the games aren't | interesting/fun for Magnus. | __s wrote: | Most tournaments are swiss format, so if you draw all your | games you won't win the tournament because the person who wins | the tournament will be the person who gets a few wins on top of | their draws | | In WC it's zero sum, so there's less pressure to find wins | aaronblohowiak wrote: | The preparation. Studying your opponent's history for 6 months | without spending time actually _playing_ is not fun. | SheetPost wrote: | Weird flex: drop out of WC to promote scam artists: | | > I feel, the FTX Crypto Cup, which is going to be awesome | theduder99 wrote: | FWIW Hikaru pointed out that some of Magnus's complaints are | kinda moot because Fide created the world rapid/blitz | championships. If you prefer shorter games, go win that one. If | you enjoy classic, then do the classic tournament. | jpgvm wrote: | To be fair he does "go win that one". | pdevr wrote: | He has every right to decide so. It is his prerogative. | | Nonetheless, this will, for sure, be disappointing for many chess | fans. | skilled wrote: | I'm pretty sure 99% of Carlsen's fans _expected_ him to do this | since he has talked about it for a long time now. And as the | article points out, he 's still going to remain _very_ active | in the Chess community, tournaments in particular. | pdevr wrote: | Expected by many. Still, disappointing for many, including me | :) | smitty1e wrote: | Props to MC for going out literally at the top of his game. | | As Kipling noted: "Once in a while / We can finish in style". | jstx1 wrote: | He's not going out though - he'll keep playing chess and he | stated that he wants to remain the best chess player. He's just | not playing the World Championship match. | smitty1e wrote: | Yes, finishing his World Championship affiliation. | eimrine wrote: | Magnus' streams in blitz chess are way more interesting than | official plays IMO. | prionassembly wrote: | Oh, that's fancier than my ready-at-hand qute for these | situations, which was 90s-girl-rocker Ani DiFranco: "so I'll | walk the plank / and I'll jump with a smile / if I'm gonna go | down / I'm gonna do it with style". | t_mann wrote: | In the short run at least, this might hurt FIDE more than Magnus. | He's already the biggest brand in global chess by far, at this | point becoming successful at the 'influencer game' (his podcasts, | other content like the poker and fantasy football he got into as | well, collaborating with other influencers like the - also | Norwegian - highly successful former climber Magnus Midtbo,...) | might do more for his brand than winning yet another title. | | That's assuming that's even his goal, he really just seems to be | doing whatever he enjoys. And in the long run, FIDE will also be | fine. There will be new talents, and as even Magnus admitted, | it's hard to rival the 'official' world champion title in terms | of global attention. | retzkek wrote: | What might save FIDE, or at least keep it relevant, is if Ding | being in the championship now can do for chess in China what | Fischer did for chess in the US, or Anand for India. There's a | potential huge market and player base that so far hasn't been | very interested in international Chess (xiangqi and go are more | popular). | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_in_China | | On the other hand, this may be an inflection point toward | online chess and faster time formats taking over for deciding | who the "real" chess champion is. It will be interesting to see | how this plays out, especially with the battle between | chess.com and lichess.org for online mindshare. | [deleted] | epups wrote: | Hopefully now he can dedicate more time to reaching 2900, a much | more interesting accomplishment than winning 1, 2 or even 5 more | world championships in their current format. | [deleted] | Epa095 wrote: | Given that you get more points the higher ranked opponents you | beat, the best way to get to 2900 might be to coach other | players so they get higher scores, before beating them. | Barrin92 wrote: | It's his choice of course but I think some of the argumentation | is in bad taste. Suggesting to only play against Firouzja is bad | sportsmanship, a player should not attempt to handpick their | opponent. It's also disrespectful to announce this after the | candidates tournament finished, in particular towards | Nepomniachtchi but also the other players who expected to face | the world champion. | gautamnarula wrote: | As a Magnus fan this saddens me, but his reasons are | understandable: you've got one life to live and he doesn't enjoy | spending a quarter of it preparing for these grinding, stressful | matches. After five consecutive wins, including a crushing win | less than a year ago, and 10 years as world #1, by a considerable | margin for most of those years (the gap between him and #2 right | now is the same as between #2 and #9, and this is the smallest | gap it's been in some time), I think he can make a credible case | that he has nothing left to prove and trying to get a 2900 rating | is more interesting. | | On a related note, my suggestion for an updated WCC format: | | We should move away from all classical chess. Yes, that's the | tradition that's been going for 150 years, but today so many of | the biggest events are rapid and blitz (online tour events, Grand | Chess Tour Rapid & Blitz events, World Rapid & Blitz | Championships, not to mention two of the last three world | championship matches being decided in rapid tiebreaks and many of | the biggest classical events decided in rapid or blitz | tiebreaks). So I believe the "World Chess Champion" should be the | person who demonstrates mastery in a blended format of all three, | to represent the importance of all three. | | The rapid, blitz, and classical portions all have equal weights | (18 points)by following in the footsteps of the Grand Chess Tour | Rapid and Blitz events where rapid games are worth 2 times as | much as blitz. I suggest 6 classical games, worth 3 points each | (1.5 for a draw); 9 rapid games, worth 2 points each (1 for a | draw); and 18 blitz games, worth the traditional 1 point each | (0.5 for a draw), with the cumulative score determining the | winner. | mrintellectual wrote: | Although a lot of folks are undoubtedly disappointed, props to | Magnus for understanding that there are other great | accomplishments to be had besides continuously winning the WCC. I | think the format of the championship match was a deal breaker for | him - months of preparation and a slew of classical games meant | that he would have little time to devote to other shorter time | format tournaments. | | With that being said, match between Ian and Ding would also be | incredibly entertaining. I look forward to it. | mikaeluman wrote: | The candidates might as well be the world championship. | | But they need to make sure wins give you e.g. 3 points and draws | only 0.5. | | Even in the candidates this year Ian - having obtained a nice | lead - played drawing lines with white to perfection. | | I don't blame him, it was the right decision. The incentive | structure needs to change. | | Even after a draw, the concept of Armageddon games to give | another half point would be interesting and useful. | __s wrote: | How do you disincentivize win trading? | mikaeluman wrote: | How do you mean one can trade when someone has lose? Do you | mean that all russians agree to lose to their number 1? | jstx1 wrote: | That's why as a spectator I wouldn't like a change in the | format to a multi-player tournament. Changing it would be | equivalent to making the candidates the World Championship and | removing the WC match - basically getting rid of the most | exciting part of following chess and keeping everything else | the same. | tzs wrote: | > But they need to make sure wins give you e.g. 3 points and | draws only 0.5. | | As black under such a system I might be more strongly | incentivized to go for the draw than under the current system. | I'm already starting at a disadvantage by having black, so | pressing for the win is extra risky, and if I do go for it and | lose my opponent gains 3 points on me. | | If you want to reduce draws by playing with points you probably | should included something that takes into accounts white's | advantage. You want to make sure white has a strong incentive | to push for the win, which in turn also increases the chances | white will go too far, giving black a good chance to also push | for the win. | | For example, asymmetric scoring such as black gets 3 points for | a win, 1 point for a draw, and white gets 2 points for a win, 0 | points for a draw. That system was tried in a couple or so | tournaments around 2005 or so. | | As far as the format goes, I wonder if a small tournament | coupled with something like the promotion/relegation system | used in many soccer leagues would be good? | | Have a Champions Tournament that consists of 4 players that | play a double round robin (or maybe a quadruple round robin?) | for the World Championship. The participants are the current | Champion, the runner-up from the prior Champions Tournament, | and the top two from the Candidates Tournament. | | The Candidates Tournament would include the 3rd and 4th place | players from the prior Champions Tournament, the 3rd and 4th | place players from the prior Candidates Tournament, and some | players who are invited based on rating, World Cup, and Grand | Prix results. | | Maybe also make the Candidates bigger than it is now, say 10 or | 12 players. That would be too long to hold as a single event, | so split it. Play some of the games as part of the World Cup | event and some as part of the Grand Prix events. | mikaeluman wrote: | To your point - White steers the game. People only go for | wins with Black when forced to. So I don't see how that | changes anything? | kzrdude wrote: | This year's candidates was pretty combative, I don't think they | have a problem to solve more with that. | peter_retief wrote: | Chess at this level is hard work, by resigning now he "sort of" | stays world champion | sam_lowry_ wrote: | Funny that they mention Arkady Dvorkovich, I would expect him to | quietly retreat from managing current affairs in FIDE because of | his high position in Russian civil service. | | How can one of the closest allies of Putin head an international | organisation nowadays? | dmurray wrote: | In March he condemned the invasion of Ukraine and stepped down | from his other positions (which have not included working for | the Russian state since 2018). | | You can always say he should go further, that he's tainted by | his past links to Putin, or point out that if he had really | turned on Putin he would have found polonium in his tea by now, | but it's misleading to describe him today as "one of the | closest allies of Putin". | sam_lowry_ wrote: | Isn't he still the Chairman of the Board of Russian Railways, | a state-owned company? | dmurray wrote: | According to their website, he left that board in 2020. | | https://ar2020.rzd.ru/en/corporate-governance/board- | director... | divan wrote: | International sport federations are non-profits and follow own | statutes. While many sports federations banned russian and | belorussian athletes and officials, they had to do it within | the legal boundaries and their statutes. For example, the | reasoning ISU (International Skating Union, second oldest sport | federation) gave on banning russians is "...we obliged to | protect athletes during event, so because of war, russian and | Ukrainian athletes can have a fight or situation that endangers | them, thus we ban russians from participation or | officiating...". During ISU Congress in June 2022 they voted if | russians should be allowed to officiate on Congress, take | official positions (including potentially heading positions) in | ISU and in Congress, and they haven't reached two thirds | needed. | | So it's simply not easy "just to replace a president". You need | to follow organization regulations and rules. Large | international organizations normally have a lot of | institutional inertia and rarely even have unified vision and | position on many aspects, unfortunately. | gdy wrote: | >the reasoning ISU (International Skating Union, second | oldest sport federation) gave on banning russians is "...we | obliged to protect athletes during event, so because of war, | russian and Ukrainian athletes can have a fight or situation | that endangers them, thus we ban russians from participation | or officiating...". | | That's the most disingenuous justification that I've heard. | jmyeet wrote: | Obviously this raised the issue of Bobby Fischer. The article | mentions this but doesn't really go into the details. | | Fischer beat Spassky in Rejkyavik in 1972 for the World | Championship. This took almost 3 months (July to September) and | there was controversy, disagreement and negotiation about where | and how it would take place. This had the backdrop of being a | Cold War proxy too of course. | | Interestingly, Fischer didn't play competitive Chess after this. | He was set to defend the title against the eventual challenger, | Anatoly Karpov, in 1975. Fischer too didn't like the tendency for | draws and proposed a format of first to 10 wins (with Fischer | retaining the title in case of a 9-9). This was rejected and | Fischer ultimately abdicated and never played competitive Chess | again. He also became a semi-nomadic recluse too. | | But it also wasn't Fischer's first hiatus from the game. There | was the 1972-1975 gap but also anotehr in the 1960s. He clearly | seemed like a troubled guy. | | I've always found it fascinating the level of commitment required | to play Chess at this level. I certainly have never had any | interest in that (nor the ability, to be clear). No one really | seems to know how to solve this without going to a more blitz | like format. | | Chess at the highest level seems to revolve around memorizing a | whole book of openings and defenses while being able to take | advantage of mistakes but also finding novel approaches in | standard openings and defenses but now it seems you have to go | fairly deep into a game before you go off-book. | rawoke083600 wrote: | >Bobby Fischer | | For anyone that likes the weird, wacko and genius (all the same | thing ?) there are few excellent short documentaries on YouTube | about Bobby Fischer. Well worth a watch! | jackmott wrote: | pkulak wrote: | Chess requires rote memorization (gotta know every book opening | 20 moves in), short-term memory/visualization (calculation), | and general problem solving (tactics); almost in equal measure. | It's absolutely crazy to me how hard it is. I can't play it | unless I don't have anything else to think hard about that day. | It wipes me out. And sure, you can kinda wing it and not give | it 100% of your capacity, but then you just lose. It's brutal. | And I suck at it. I can't imagine what these high-level folks | go through. | vishnugupta wrote: | Speaking of Bobby Fisher I found the book End Game fascinating | and engrossing. | PeterisP wrote: | The quote by Paul Morphy, one of the great old chess masters, | seems relevant here - "The ability to play chess is the sign of | a gentleman. The ability to play chess well is the sign of a | wasted life." | amelius wrote: | I hope it doesn't apply to coding too. | PeterisP wrote: | Perhaps you might say something like that for e.g. | competitive coding or leetcode. | ctxc wrote: | Code golfing! | kamaal wrote: | >>competitive coding or leetcode | | Absolutely yes. | | There is a big difference between inventing solutions to | novel problems, and being 75,386th person to solve a | problem on a website. The latter just makes you a | sophisticated newspaper daily puzzle solver. | camjohnson26 wrote: | I think it's because both systems are bounded and cut out a | lot of real world complexity, and since these simplified | systems are easier to understand than the real world the | certainty and confidence they provide become addictive. | Similar to video games in that way. | | It's not necessarily a bad thing though because we're | always working with a simplified system whatever we're | doing in life, the question is just how much is it helping | people. Chess provides entertainment and personal | challenge, coding provides ridiculous productivity. All | things in moderation though. | moonchrome wrote: | I don't think that ability to code is a sign of a gentleman | jstx1 wrote: | More like Kasparov because he remained active after the FIDE | split. Still a bit different because Magnus isn't running a | parallel WC of his own. | | It's also funny how the only 3 World Champions who have refused | to defend a title because of disagreements with FIDE are | probably the 3 best chess players ever. | AmericanChopper wrote: | Fischer is clearly the goat in my view. But it's not so | obvious to me that Kasparov and Carlsen are better than say | Vishy or Morphy or Botvinnik or Capablanca... | prionassembly wrote: | On one view, Morphy et al. picked low-hanging fruit, no | longer available to Kasparov. On the other, Morphy and | Capablanca etc. _laid the foundations_ on which Carlsen and | Kasparov walk. | jmyeet wrote: | I find these conversations amusing because it really is the | nerd (I mean that as a nerd myself; not perjoratively) | version of arguing about whether LeBron is better than | Jordan (in their respective primes) or whether the GOAT is | Brady, Woods or LeBron. | | It's just funny that this same argument structure repeats | in radically different fields with (often) very different | people. | | Personally I've never gotten too invested in any of these | arguments because they're ultimately unknowable but, more | importantly, they're kind of pointless. You can't separate | someone from the time they existed in. I was only ever at | best average at Chess but even I could recognize that the | grats of 100-200 years ago would get wiped out by the | modern greats but obviously we know more now, we have | better tools now and so on. And you can never really say | how a historic great would do in the modern times with | modern ideas, knowledge and tools because they're a product | of their time. | rofo1 wrote: | I think most chess players are comparing them in the same | circumstances, e.g on pure skill. | | So for example Fischer said Capablanca and Morphy, under | the same circumstances, could beat anyone (if they were | born in the same era, using the same tools, etc.) | bitshiftfaced wrote: | I think you can get pretty close, though. We can now | objectively evaluate middle and endgame strength (where | you wouldn't gain as much from modern techniques) by | using superhuman chess engines. | jstx1 wrote: | For Anand it's really obvious that both Carlsen and | Kasparov are better given that they've beaten him in World | Championship matches (Kasparov once, Magnus twice), have | positive head-to-head scores against him and have better | other achievements like peak rating or time spent at number | 1. There's no metric on which Anand comes out on top in | comparison to Carlsen and Kasparov. | AmericanChopper wrote: | There's also not really any metric where any of them are | better than Fischer. Neither Carlsen nor Kasparov | challenged Vishy's title during the peak of his career. | He's also such a phenomenal player, that if he'd been the | one to abdicate the FIDE title instead of Kasparov, you'd | easily be able to make the same kind of "top 3" comments | about him. | jstx1 wrote: | > There's also not really any metric where any of them | are better than Fischer. | | Off the top of my head - World Championships matches won, | time spent as number 1, peak Elo. | | > Neither Carlsen nor Kasparov challenged Vishy's title | during the peak of his career. | | When was the peak? He was WC between 2007 and 2013, he | wasn't even the top ranked player for most of that time | and then he lost the WC to Magnus (then lost the rematch | too). | AmericanChopper wrote: | > Off the top of my head - World Championships matches | won, time spent as number 1, peak Elo. | | I meant to say that the other way around sorry. A lot of | Fischer's stats aren't very impressive at all. He's won | less championships than say Kramnik or Petrosian, but not | many people would argue that either of those two were | greater players than Fischer. | mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: | Elo inflates over time, and so can't be easily compared | like this. More interesting to me is how dominant a | player was at their peak, and for that Fischer wins by a | mile for modern times, with Kasparov behind him. And | historically, Morphy, Lasker and Capablanca come to mind. | And Tal could wipe the floor with anyone when his poor | health didn't get in the way. | rawoke083600 wrote: | Honest question: Would somebody at this "level" be better than | good at something like StarCraft ? Noted that SC takes more than | "just strategy" i.e micro comes to mind. | | Like I would pay good money to see Serral Vs Magnus, maybe after | some coaching sessions with Harstem ? :D ? | | EDIT: Just out of curiosity will there be anything else that | someone at this level is "exceptional" good at besides chess ? | epolanski wrote: | Magnus would do well if he applied to anything involving math | and calculations. | | SC has a sane dose of reflexes and micro management. | __s wrote: | Magnus has been doing alright in poker, tho the volatility | makes it harder to accurately measure what his level is there | | Pitting him against a pro StarCraft player would be a joke tho. | For reference, Nina is able to reach 4800 MMR worker rushing | every game. The mechanics alone would take a couple years of | dedicated practice | matharmin wrote: | There is not that much overlap between skills required for | chess and StarCraft. Being good at one may perhaps correlate | with having some natural talent in the other, but experience in | the specific game would matter a lot more. | rollcat wrote: | "Good" as in, maybe reach GM? Quite likely, although being in | GM already makes you a statistical outlier (200 slots per | region in a player base of hundreds of thousands). | | Good enough to challenge a pro? You're seriously | underestimating how much hard work the pros are putting in to | play at their level - on top of the insane mechanical skill, | game knowledge, and experience. Part of the skillset is | obviously transferrable to other RTS games (big chunk of the | AoE4 ladder was dominated by SC2 GMs early after launch), but | playing (and staying) at pro level in SC2 requires much more - | it requires consistency. | | Serral has 7.5K MMR not because he's been taking 20 MMR off a | 7.4K player (because there are no 7.4K players), he has 7.5K | MMR because he took 1 MMR from 6K players a couple thousand | times. 6K is like what, top 50 GM? | | My bet in Serral v Magnus would be X:0 in a best of (X*2)+1, | for any X the players would be willing to suffer through. | | (Sorry if my numbers are a bit inexact, the new season just | started and GM is not open yet.) | bena wrote: | Yeah. The live element brings something else to the table. | It's not only knowing what to do, but being able to execute. | | I've played Starcraft off and on, mostly through the Brood | War days, and never super competitively. My friends and I had | a standing Friday night game we'd play. We were ok. | | My brother-in-law came to stay with us for a while and he had | never played Starcraft before but wanted to try it out. So I | said, sure, we can 2v2 the computer so you can get a handle | on things. We'll play Terran since it's the most like | Warcraft. He told me he's played Age of Empires, he knows | what RTSs are like. He'll be fine, he wanted to 1v1. I asked | him if he was sure because Starcraft was a much faster game | than AoE. He said he was sure, it would be fine. | | So we played. I played a pretty standard build order, sent | out my 10th/11th worker as a scout, found his base, saw he | was still on his initial set of workers and building a | barracks with one of them. So I built my second base on his | expansion spot, got it up to speed, built a couple of | barracks, and a couple of machine shops, cranked out some | marines, medics, and siege tanks, and to top it off, I build | a starport and some drop ships. Loaded up the squad and | dropped them behind his mineral line, obliterated his | economy, then rolled through his base. | rollcat wrote: | That's also why in a tournament (or a showmatch) you'd play | the same opponent in a series (like best of 3, best of | 5...). I once had a couple friendly games with a dude in | masters 3 (that's maybe 1K MMR above me) and... actually | won one map. My mechanics are pretty bad, but I have a very | decent understanding of the game. He tried something funny | - I scouted, responded, and killed him. If it were a best | of 1, that was our first map - I would have won the series. | | This would not happen with Serral. He does lose against | other pros, but not against joes. When you face an opponent | 1.5K MMR below you, you're putting something like -200MMR | on the table if you lose. You can't stay 200-300 MMR above | the #2 spot if you ever drop a game like that. | bena wrote: | Oh yeah. We played with someone who played competitively | one time and it was no joke. We couldn't get anything off | the ground. It was literally our rec league flag football | team going against <INSERT YOUR FAVORITE NFL TEAM HERE>. | | There's a guy, Stanislav Cifka, who plays (or maybe | played at this point, I haven't kept up) competitive | Magic: the Gathering who was ranked fairly high in chess | at some point (or maybe still is). He wasn't ever the | best chess player or best Magic player, but he was pretty | good in both. | | So Magnus could probably eventually do well, but there's | a learning curve. | Lapsa wrote: | no, dude. it would take at least couple years of intense | training for Serral v Magnus to be somewhat interesting | inkblotuniverse wrote: | I'd love to see that. | anthonypasq wrote: | i imagine that being good as chess is a huge predictor of being | good at pretty much all other strategy games. However, there is | too much of a focus on mechanical skill in starcraft for him to | overcome with strategy. | | I think a better choice would be something like Magic the | Gathering or other card games. I have no doubt he would end up | dominating those if he became dedicated. | hnfong wrote: | Not sure chess players would be able to do 300+ apm though.... | 8note wrote: | you should see fast over the board play. | | Within a bullet game though | https://lichess.org/forum/general-chess-discussion/most- | move... looks like 100apm isn't far off, and that includes | having the opponent make moves inbetween | drexlspivey wrote: | Nepo is an ex professional Dota player | b0afc375b5 wrote: | Now that's a fun fact! As a dota2 enthusiast on a previous | life this is so exciting to learn. | | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Nepomniachtchi#Video_gam. | .. | haunter wrote: | He held the number 1 spot in the Fantasy Premier League for a | time so yes | https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/dec/16/chess-champion... | rawoke083600 wrote: | Oh interesting ! I didn't know that ! | kriro wrote: | He'll still play chess and wants to go to 2900 but I'm curious if | he'll take a serious step at poker eventually. He's playing for | fun already (played in the 2022 WSOP if I recall correctly) and | he'd probably be very good at GTO studying. | upupandup wrote: | I guess when a particular game has been figured out thanks to AI, | we will hear more and more professionals and world champions | throwing the towel. Yes there will be a market for watching human | vs human games but can we still call them the best of the best | when some AI program can play it not only better but teach us | more axioms and undiscovered patterns or rules? | | Good on him to call it quits, shouldn't impact his standing in | the world any less. | fairity wrote: | My read on the situation is that Magnus had two goals: | | 1) remain world champion | | 2) get to 2900 elo | | #1 got in the way of #2 because all the elite grandmasters | constantly focus throughout the year on preparing for Magnus, | which creates a headwind in the non-world champion tournaments | where he must perform well to reach 2900. | | My guess is he will focus on 2900. Then, come back as world | champion. Then, retire after 7 championships or his performance | deteriorates. | epolanski wrote: | Isn't elo eventually inflated by the number of ranked players | anyway? | | The more people will be eventually fide rated and climb through | the distribution the more the better players will drift at | higher elos. | | That's also a reason why in modern days we have more 2750+ | ranked players than ever. | | One common, wrong, argument is that modern players play better, | while this is true this does not affect the elo ranking at all. | The elo system merely tracks how did you do against opponents | with a different ranking and assigns a score based on the win | or loss, how well the players did is absolutely irrelevant to | the distrubition. | matsemann wrote: | I think that the rating inflation debate has concluded that | there isn't that much inflation. Compared to the old 2600 | generation, the 2700 people now are just that much better. | | An analysis here: https://en.chessbase.com/post/the-elo- | ratings-inflation-or-d... | | It claims that a 2500 player now is better than a 2500 player | in 2000. So in that sense it's actually been a deflation. | | Also https://www.playmagnus.com/en/news/post/rating- | inflation-myt... | epolanski wrote: | But that's my point: elo distribution has nothing to do | with how good players are, it merely tracks your win/lose | status against opponents with a different elo. | | If you take, e.g. two unranked players that are very bad at | chess or two unranked masters they are still going to end | up with a +16 and -16 elo change. And you can keep adding | great or bad players to the pool, and elo is still going to | only look at the outcome not how players play. | | The point with elo is that if there's only 2 players it is | basically impossible to reach a 2000 elo, because even if | one consistently wins at some point he's not gaining any | point by beating the same opponent, thus to go from 1700 to | 1800 he'll need to face an opponent that has a similar elo. | | The more people slightly below his skill the more he'll | rise in the elo distribution, this trickles down all the | way up and down. | | Of course it is very likely that modern 2500 players are | better as they have better tools than players of 20 years | ago, but the same applies to people lower and higher in | rating. | | Thus, at the end of the day, the only factor that matters | in an elo distribution and how wide it is, is the number of | games and players. | | If tomorrow there will be an influx of another million | ranked players the distribution will get a bit wider and | this would also inflate in the long run ratings of the | highest rated players. | mbauman wrote: | > #1 got in the way of #2 because all the elite grandmasters... | | ... also focus on grabbing draws. Draws against lower rated | players (that is, everyone for Magnus) drop your elo. Winning | the world championship may very well _drop_ Mangus ' elo score | if it involves only a handful of wins and lots of draws. | matsemann wrote: | Carlsen was 2853 rated in November 2016, December 2016 it was | 2840 after playing the WC match against Karjakin in November. | | Winning against Anand in 2013 gave him 2 points. I think he | got 1 point for beating Nepo in 2021. | | With that, reaching 2900 seems almost impossible. He was at | 2882 two times, but when you need almost perfect score to | achieve it it's hard. | endorphine wrote: | My read is he's being honest and will not in fact enjoy playing | the World Championship. | CSMastermind wrote: | I think he had issues with the challenger selection process. | That's why he was willing to play if it was Firouzja but | isn't interested in a rematch with Nepo. | | And I think pretty much everyone predicted that had Naka won | Magnus would play. | tzs wrote: | Nakamura on a video posted to his YouTube channel earlier | today said he also thinks Carlsen would have played if he | came in second in the Candidates. | | His reasoning was that he and Carlsen are the two most | widely known and followed active chess players at the | moment, and Carlsen is not going to allow a world where | Nakamura is Champion instead of him. | | Nakamura doesn't seem upset or anything over not coming in | second at the Candidates, which up until the last game it | looked like he almost had a lock on. | | The person he said is probably the most upset by Carlsen's | decision is Caruana. Caruana collapsed in the second half | of the tournament, which Nakamura thinks is because Caruana | thought that only 1st mattered and so had to play for wins | to try to catch Nepo. If Caruana had played for top 2 | instead of 1st, Nakamura thinks he would have had no | trouble achieving that. | BbzzbB wrote: | Nakamura also said he doesn't believe Magnus won't play | the WC. | | Perhaps, just maybe, Nakamura doesn't quite understand | what Magnus thinks, being different humans and all. So | far it seems Magnus has been more accurate at predicting | what Magnus will do. | ShivShankaran wrote: | Russia is playing China in the world championship. I wonder if US | is getting a serious heartburn | dmurray wrote: | Four of the world top ten currently [0] represent the US, | versus one from each of six other countries. They're the | favourites for the upcoming Olympiad. Elite level chess in the | US is just doing fine. | | [0] add your own asterisks for how important it is, but all | four moved from abroad, three when they were already world | class players | jstx1 wrote: | It's 3 - Caruana, Aronian and So - https://ratings.fide.com/ | | Also, Caruana was born in Miami to Italian parents and lived | in the US and played for the US until he was 12. | dmurray wrote: | And Nakamura, who is joint 9th on that list although it | displays as #11. (he's outright 8th on the 2700chess live | list, which I used originally but is less authoritative). | ShivShankaran wrote: | At some point Americans have to realize that this unwarranted | hostility towards China, Russia and India will bite them | back. It's already biting the lower and middle class back and | this is most likely the beginning of the end of American | empire led by a senile demented dude. | | Love always trumps hate but the arms industry of US will keep | pushing for arms inside and outside of US at all times even | if the people being murdered are it's own kids. | xiaodai wrote: | meh. this will never happen in shogi or weiqi world. chess is a | mess. the issue with top level chess is that draws are the most | common result. it doesn't matter for mere mortals like us but it | does get boring to follow top level chess vs go and shogi. | xiangqi's got the same issue | baby wrote: | Go/weiqi really is much more entertaining than chess, but chess | has won the west. I think the US has the same issue with | football being quite boring to watch compared to soccer/rugby, | but marketing has prevented the other sports to proliferate. | tweakimp wrote: | Time for a chess rules change? | V-2 wrote: | While he's (this goes without saying) perfectly within his rights | to do so. I feel this decision will undermine his status as one | of the GOATs of the game in the long run. | | "However, one cannot say that he has beaten Caruana or Karjakin | convincingly. [Both matches were decided on tiebreaks]. There | were questions in his match against Anand too. If he had beaten | all three of them as clearly as he won against Nepomniachtchi, I | would understand Carlsen. But is he already tired of winning | after winning one match clearly?" (Karpov) | why-el wrote: | "Did Michael Jordan win all six championships convincingly? All | series went 5 games or more." | mark_l_watson wrote: | I totally support Magnus Carlson's decision. He really loves | travel and playing in many tournaments and now he can do more of | what he loves. I enjoy watching him, and others, do Chess | streaming and I went to the US Chess Open in 1978 but I never | even played 25 rated games so my rating was never official. | | I do like do slowly read through Chess games, especially old | historic games. I do the same with the game of Go: I like the | several hundred year old Shogun Palace games. I did take online | lessons from a Korean Go master a few years ago, and once a month | play a long game against CSPro Go program, let it spend an hour | after the game analyzing my moves, then I look at what moves I | should have played in critical parts of the game. | | I guess what I am saying here is that different people enjoy | games differently, and I respect Magnus optimizing playing Chess | for his own fun and lifestyle. | SubiculumCode wrote: | Face it FIDE, chess.com is where the chess world is at these | days, and when in a mood, Lichess. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-07-20 23:00 UTC)