[HN Gopher] Gitlab - A world leader in remote work ___________________________________________________________________ Gitlab - A world leader in remote work Author : DougMellon Score : 107 points Date : 2022-07-20 18:22 UTC (4 hours ago) (HTM) web link (about.gitlab.com) (TXT) w3m dump (about.gitlab.com) | ddmichael wrote: | Looking for a free ad, Gitlab? | alexfromapex wrote: | My favorite part of their story is how they changed the interview | process to not be terrible and built a dashboard to quantify it: | https://about.gitlab.com/blog/2020/03/19/the-trouble-with-te... | VoidWhisperer wrote: | Unfortunately the dashboard seems to be very broken now :( | znpy wrote: | I think it would be nice to, and probably time for, gitlab to get | its playbook finalised and in printed form, with an isbn and | everything. | tristor wrote: | I appreciate a lot of what Gitlab has done, but as someone who | has been permanently remote for nearly a decade, I don't really | consider them to be a leader in remote work. One of my biggest | issues with Gitlab is that they pay based on locality, many other | fully remote companies pay below Bay Area salaries, but they pay | flat globally, meaning you can be location-independent without a | pay-cut and it helps to bring in high quality talent from across | the world. Gitlab instead seems to be focused on maximizing | revenue per headcount rather than actually allowing their | employees to enjoy the benefits of remote work. | | I spent many years working at companies where I was underpaid | relative to peers who went to the office, but I got paid the same | whether I was currently residing in Prague, Santiago, or Kansas | City, and that was a much fairer trade-off than getting pay-cut | if you relocate to a lower cost of living area, and I have no | doubt that the reverse is not true (they don't increase pay | because you move to a HCOL). | tomnipotent wrote: | Locally-adjusted pay is a fluke if revenues are not locally | constrained (like a coffee shop). It's just another way | employers try and nickle and dime workers, and it's sad that a | large class of workers have been brainwashed to support it | because somehow they're more upset at the other workers making | more, than the company trying to pull a fast on on them. | | "But you would make so much more than your neighbors!". Fuck | off with that noise. I don't care what my neighbors make, I | care what the company is earning from my labor and getting my | fair share. | | You also won't see this for senior management. As a VP/C-level, | I've never had a potential employer put pressure on salary | during a negotiation because of my location (though it's always | been domestic). It's never even come up besides relocation | discussions. | leeoniya wrote: | "They're the writers of their own press releases, Morty." | belter wrote: | Still paying according to location for the same work? | deltree7 wrote: | Incredibly naive to assume that in the knowledge industry, you | can compare two people's work. | | How do you measure this? | codegeek wrote: | Isn't that Capitalism 101 ? If employees are happy, company is | happy, why does it matter ? Why should a company worry about | pleasing everyone who is not necessarily part of them. If | someone likes what Gitlab does, applies there and gets the | salary they want, what's the issue ? If they don't like | Gitlab's offer because someone else in a HCOL area may get | more, you are essentially comparing with someone else. Not a | good idea. | pizza234 wrote: | > Isn't that Capitalism 101 ? If employees are happy, company | is happy, why does it matter ? | | I don't blame them for applying "Capitalism 101", but on the | other hand, Gitlab is selling an ethos, not just a product1. | Surely, nobody likes to hear "when it's about management, | we're rainbow and unicorns, but when it comes to the bottom | line, we're capitalism 101". | | I also think that they target talented but (from a career | perspective) inexperienced engineers (a bit like old Google's | free lunch and table tennis tables), which I find - at least | - distasteful. Gitlab cleverly capitalizes on their brand, | and in addition to the location-based salary optimization, | they also offer substandard salaries (or at least, they did | for a significant time; I interviewed with them, and by that | time, they were paying at least 20% less than comparable | companies). | | 1: amusingly, they're not immune to marketing nonsense; see, | for example, https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all- | remote/all-remo.... | joshmanders wrote: | It's because talking about your salary is so widely taboo | that you may think your rate of $40k salary is good because | it's comfortable in your area, but most chances are you don't | realize that your co-worker who has the same skill level and | workload is getting paid $80k and that's a good way to piss | off your employees. | | Pay for skills not for cost of living. You hire someone for | what they can bring to the table not how much you can profit | off them. | jrochkind1 wrote: | I have no opinion to express on adjusting pay for area of | residence, but note that Gitlab's salaries appear to be | unusually exceptionally transparent, so your story of | taboos about discussing salary and secrecy of colleague's | salaries probably does not apply to them. | | https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/total- | rewards/compensation... | codegeek wrote: | "You hire someone for what they can bring to the table not | how much you can profit off them." | | Not sure if I agree with this naive view. Yes, you hire | people and give them what they want in exchange for work | but at the end of the day, I am absolutely trying to save | money as a company and increase profits as long as I am | doing it reasonably. | webdood90 wrote: | fascinating how people come to the defense of | corporations like this. | | why? do you feel that someday you'll be in their shoes | and have the power to dictate salaries? | | you are likely a worker like everyone else here. demand | better. | rnk wrote: | I saw a list of companies that paid the same regardless of | location. There were even a few bay area companies that didn't | cut your pay when you moved away, I wish I had that handy. | codegeek wrote: | Can you name a few who will pay a Senior Software Engineer | the same salary in Bay Area vs say Bangalore, India ? I am | curious. | AmericanChopper wrote: | If you want to get the same pay for remote work no matter | where you are, just become a contractor. | wwarek wrote: | Just a few months ago this[0] jobs platform for exactly | that - remote, location-independent salary - was discussed | on HN [1]. | | [0] https://remotewide.co/ [1] | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31225138 | codegeek wrote: | Ok I will bite. I randomly checked one company called | "MotorK" [0] and I found this line in the job description | "Work remotely from any of the countries we operate in". | So thats not work from anywhere in the world. I am sure | devil is always in the details. I know this is 1 example | but I doubt a company will hire from anywhere in the | world and pay the same salaries to you. There always will | be restrictions. | | Ok now I am more curious. I looked at another company | "Expensify" [1]. They actually want you to ideally | relocate to one of their office locations :). So again, | not fully remote anywhere in the world. I think employers | say it casually but in practice, it is extremely | difficult. | | Why would I pay the same salary to a good developer in | NYC vs India/Thailand. If that's the case, why would I | hire from a totally different timezone and not to mention | add legal, HR and compliance issues. | | [0] https://remotewide.co/listings/6IBsLC9CWYb4sO8h8xAT | | [1] https://remotewide.co/listings/ncCWVkYCZx0dhK0m5Z8v | throwmisinfo388 wrote: | Maybe Fly? Not sure. | | https://fly.io/about | [deleted] | Vinnl wrote: | What I don't get is: why would they pay more for someone from | San Francisco? I'd expect the incentive to be to indeed pay the | same for the same work, but that pay would be the lowest they | can get away with. (i.e. I wouldn't expect that to lead to | Silicon Valley salaries all over the world.) | | Unless it's not actually the same work, and location affects | work. It does at least affect gross pay in any case, I suppose. | rr888 wrote: | > why would they pay more for someone from San Francisco? | | Because they probably want someone from the area working in | the company. If they pay a flat rate globally, they only have | to pay average or lower and get great people in LCOL areas. | But then you have a company with no people in CA or NY, which | means you dont have contact with local trends or contacts in | the big tech companies. | kodah wrote: | > why would they pay more for someone from San Francisco? | | I can't answer for GitLab, but widely, people often believe | that San Francisco has an "exceptional" talent pool and that | companies pay a premium for that because of competition. | emerongi wrote: | What's the problem with that? If Gitlab is not paying top of | the market salaries, then they're just going to miss out on top | talent, and clearly they're fine with it. It's a free market | after all, you don't have to join Gitlab. | chrisan wrote: | Absolutely nothing is wrong with it. | | Just don't call yourself a world leader. | lucideer wrote: | If there's nothing wrong with it, why would it preclude one | being a world leader. | | (not saying GL are, there could be other unrelated things | precluding it) | rschachte wrote: | Because being a world leader in remote work would imply | they don't do that? | wowokay wrote: | That doesn't make sense? Just like universal pay doesn't | make sense unless there is a universal cost to | everything. | rschachte wrote: | It makes sense relative to actual world leaders in tech | that do not adjust pay based on location. | codegeek wrote: | Why should the definition of "World Leader in Remote" be | based on how they pay. Why can't it be based on the fact | that they allow fully remote and pay reasonably well for | your area. Who decides the definition ? | [deleted] | chomp wrote: | Who would you consider to be operationally and culturally | superior in regards to remote work than Gitlab? Asking | sincerely, because Gitlab is one of the first brands I | think of when people mention "remote first culture". | kirbypineapple wrote: | Kraken has a few thousand employees, has been a remote | first company for a decade, and pays the same no matter | where you live. | ForHackernews wrote: | Isn't Kraken part of the crypto game? Not sure they can | be compared to more mature businesses. Are they paying | their employees in tokens? | andsoitis wrote: | Kraken operates in over 60 countries (according to their | website). They pay the same amount across all those | territories, including benefits etc.? I find that hard to | believe. | kirbypineapple wrote: | For engineering/product etc. that's the case. Doesn't | matter if you move from San Francisco to Thailand or some | other low cost of living area, your pay remains the same. | onion2k wrote: | Not cutting someone's pay when they move is very | different to hiring someone in Thailand on a Bay Area | salary. | b4je7d7wb wrote: | Why? If both do the same work in the same location, why | would one get more than the other. | | Either you don't adjust the pay when they move because | you are already paying everyone an equal salary. Or you | adjust it and pay everyone a local salary. | | Gitlab does the latter. | bottled_poe wrote: | Why? Because that's how basic market forces work. | yani wrote: | Automattic | emerongi wrote: | It's in your own personal definition of remote work that | people should be paid an universal salary. | | Gitlab might not be a world leader in salaries, but they | might very well be a world leader in providing the best | remote work environment to their employees. | arccy wrote: | can it really be "best" if you're treated unequally just | because live somewhere different? | codegeek wrote: | Why would you judge what I want as an employee. If I am | happy living in a low cost of living area with the salary | I am getting, why is it your problem to worry for me ? | lolinder wrote: | For some people, sure! There are dozens of other metrics | that can be used to evaluate a remote work environment, | and for a lot of people "my salary matches my coworkers" | doesn't matter as long as it's a good wage relative to | what they'd be able to get working in an office locally. | detaro wrote: | From what I've seen the usual points of critique were/are: | | * "This person does the exact same work, obviously they need | to be paid 30% more than you because they could afford to | move close to an expensive city before applying" doesn't | sound exactly fair | | * "We'll value your work less financially if you move | somewhere cheaper (not the other way around though)" isn't | particularly great | | * The message(s) of "You can work from everywhere, people can | move back to rural places and reverse demographic drain from | there, you can be close to nature, ..." seem a bit hollow | when paired with "oh, and if you actually do any of those | great things we'll cut your salary" | | * At least when it was public, their salary calculator had | some hilarious blind spots (one would hope they have a better | process when it actually comes down to it) | | For the other perspective, they've written about why they do | it: https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/total- | rewards/compensation..., | https://about.gitlab.com/blog/2019/02/28/why-we-pay-local- | ra... | b4je7d7wb wrote: | They have changed the areas to less specific. Like in | Europe not individual countries and cities, but thigs like | "nordic". Try paying a Norwegian and a Finn the same | multiplier. | | Imagine spending so much time and effort to justify paying | your employees less. It makes financial sense for a public | company with no soul, but I feel bad for gitlab employees. | detaro wrote: | > _They have changed the areas to less specific._ | | but with a rental-price index for local-ish area instead | of trying to capture that in their regions? or total | flat?! | xtracto wrote: | Yup, that was my same thought. I live in a "cheaper market" | location (Mexico) and at some point looked about working in | Gitlab as a Tech Lead / Sr. Dev or something similar, because | I liked their service. | | The problem is that when I saw their compensation tables for | Mexico, their offer was going to cut my salary by about 30% | of what I was actually earning (I think it was about $70k USD | annual at most, I cannot find the calculator now), in another | US company _with an office in my hometown_. Instead, I went | to another US company which is also remote, and got a pay | bump to $140,000 USD, working from my country. | | I am not asking to get paid in FAANG Valley salaries ($400k+) | but even paying me 50%-60% of what they pay to someoneone in | the US makes a win-win situation IMHO. | mountainriver wrote: | Last I heard they were which makes them NOT a leader in remote | work lol | | They underpay in general which is why their product is buggy | tapanjk wrote: | > They underpay in general which is why their product is | buggy | | I understand the sentiment but I am not convinced that | underpay is the cause of buggyness. They compete with a | behemoth and it is quite a feat to stay in the game in spite | of having a fraction of resources at their disposal compared | to thier completion. | mountainriver wrote: | Yeah fair it's somewhat cultural, in that they are trying | to roll out an insane number of features to best Github, | but aren't building them with high quality | ROARosen wrote: | You pay according to location for the same bottle of Coke? How | is work pay different? | | Why shouldn't payment for work be tied to local price ranges | and cost of living? | chrisseaton wrote: | > Why shouldn't payment for work be tied to local price | ranges and cost of living? | | Why should it be? You pay someone enough to get them to work | for you instead of someone else. That's the sole reason you | pay someone anything at all. And there's no reason to pay | them any more than that. How do local prices and cost of | living fit into that equation? | lolinder wrote: | Presumably GitLab will stop using local prices and cost of | living when continuing to use them gets in the way of | hiring developers they'd like to hire. As of now, it seems | that it's working for them. | | If we enter a world where most SWEs work remotely and few | other companies are paying location-based, we might see | GitLab change their tune. For now, they're competing first | and foremost against local jobs. | b4je7d7wb wrote: | Yes, but that is not a company that should be praised as | world leader in remote work. | | How do you expect to ever raise the standard of living in | poor countries if you exploit their labor for pennies on | the dollar. No different from apple and other who move | manufacturing to cheap labor. | | A real leader in remote work would try to be a part of | the solution, not actively fight against it. | codegeek wrote: | Just because a company may not pay salaries compared to | say Bay Area, doesn't mean they are not paying great | salary for your location. It is a stretch to say that | they are exploiting labor for pennies if they are paying | a good market rate salary for the area they are hiring | in. | b4je7d7wb wrote: | Ah, so exactly the same model like the sweatshops in | Asia. Pay just good enough that they can't afford to not | do the job. Very generous. | codegeek wrote: | Nice but wrong. Sweatshops pay like shit. I am talking | about good Pay in your area (greater than average cost of | living). Apples and Oranges. | chrisseaton wrote: | > Sweatshops pay like shit. | | Like Gitlab then? | chrisseaton wrote: | > For now, they're competing first and foremost against | local jobs. | | 'We keep up with mediocre local jobs' is hardly 'world | leader' is it? | joshmanders wrote: | Because you're paying me for my skills and expertise, not for | where I live. | alchemist1e9 wrote: | This is likely correct in the long run and it means | software engineering compensation will be dropping | significantly in the next decade. | bottled_poe wrote: | This is the "eat it too" aspect which a lot of other | threads here seem to be ignoring. | halfmatthalfcat wrote: | This line has been repeated ad nauseum but I have never | seen any backing data. Why would salaries decrease? | Software development, done well, is a highly technical | craft. Maybe for the first rung of developers it'll go | way down but those Staff/Senior Staff I would expect to | still command large salaries. | PenguinCoder wrote: | 100% absolutely agreed. You're paying me for the work I can | do for you. If someone else on the team with the same role | and JD as me, gets paid more while you expect the _same | level of work_ from us both, that's bullshit. Admit then | you the company are paying less because you want the | cheaper labor and don't complain when I put in less effort | thsn the other person you're paying more. Paid for effort | and knowledge, not the goddamn city I live in. If it's the | same job, it should pay the same wage. Period. | BlargMcLarg wrote: | Well, it _is_ great way to make talent in HoCL areas get | priced out of the market, should the market reach a point | where there 's enough talent in LoCL willing to work for | lower rates. Theoretically, anyway. | bastardoperator wrote: | Why would you pay two people doing the same job vastly | different salaries because one lives in A and the other lives | in B? That's the better question to be answered. I am not | bottle of coke, and neither are my colleagues, we're humans, | so your analogy makes zero sense. | vernon99 wrote: | Because physical goods are subject to differently priced | logistics and local ingridients and remote work is not? | Seriously, how can you even compare? | vruiz wrote: | The price of Coke is influenced by logistics but ultimately | it's determined by the market (supply and demand), exactly | the same as your work, that's capitalism. | | What's the market in this context is of course the | interesting question. | sixo wrote: | in the tech job market generally, the value of the work to | the company puts an upper bar on a salary, but competition | with other employers for the same worker puts a lower bar | on salary (obviously along with other factors like the | company's reputation, mission, benefits). In practice all | salaries are set by the latter rule, which means they | depend on the job market, which varies by location. That | salaries should _not_ depend on location is a fantasy based | on some weird idea of people getting "paid what they | deserve"--a fallacious association between your salary and | your worth as a person, which people would do well to get | over. | chrisseaton wrote: | > which means they depend on the job market, which varies | by location | | Aren't you commenting on a post about remote work? Their | job market is global (within limitations.) | lasereyes136 wrote: | The cost of most commodities varies by location. This | includes Coke. It is called price discrimination. | | The whole reason DVDs had regions was to price the same DVD | differently based on location. As long as companies can, they | will price and pay different amounts for the same thing based | on local factors. | mmaia wrote: | GitLab doesn't charge based on the location of their | customers. | comprev wrote: | Gitlab ideally wants clients in Silicon Valley but staff in | Lahore. | motoxpro wrote: | Never thought about this, but man, very much this. | comprev wrote: | It hits pretty hard when you think about it. The "product | distribution" cost is the same worldwide on the internet, | vs a physical good like a soft drinks can. | 0xbadcafebee wrote: | Gitlab's company handbook is absolutely amazing if you haven't | read it: https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/ | | Every company should be handbook-driven. | danbmil99 wrote: | This seems pretty spammy for a top-10 slot on HN | whateveracct wrote: | https://about.gitlab.com/blog/2015/03/04/gitlab-is-part-of-t... | sithlord wrote: | Thats certainly a self-proclaimed title. | BlargMcLarg wrote: | Aye. I like Gitlab for pushing remote work, but sure feels like | trying to pivot into selling shovels by claiming to be | 'experts' on a 'difficult topic'. | dellIsBetter wrote: | The comparation is great: | https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/all-remo... | neogodless wrote: | To elaborate, the above is a table highlighting all the | benefits of Full Remote over Hybrid Remote. | detaro wrote: | Although it is comparing with a thing they basically say "we | define it as not having these benefits". I know companies I | would define as "hybrid" were not all those negatives apply. | cglan wrote: | Their pay was abysmally low last time I applied. The company | seems cool but the salaries as a senior were honestly kind of | silly in this market. | postalrat wrote: | Then you missed the biggest advantage of remote only: they can | hire from any market. | bottled_poe wrote: | It's kinda funny everyone here arguing they should be paid | the same regardless of location - but then complaining when | the reality of that wish is not what they'd imagined. | webdood90 wrote: | yes, very silly that people desire equally well paid jobs | regardless of location. how very silly of them. | bottled_poe wrote: | It just doesn't match the reality of market forces and | it's obvious. | somerandomqaguy wrote: | What pay was that? Last I checked Gitlab's pay for a junior | QA/SDET positions was about $15,000 $30,000 more then most | local Canadian tech companies pay for senior/staff level. | chrisseaton wrote: | I think their remote pay is based on some kind of survey of | local salaries? There's no tech jobs near me, so I guess they | picked up the next-best-thing which was maybe like call centre | workers or something? It was so low I wouldn't recommend to a | new-grad, and this was for senior level. When you looked they | also had these peculiar small islands of higher pay - so I | guess it's really pay by what you can negotiate and they create | an island for you if you're important enough? ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-07-20 23:01 UTC)