[HN Gopher] Visa Changes Chargeback Dispute Program ___________________________________________________________________ Visa Changes Chargeback Dispute Program Author : cwwc Score : 31 points Date : 2022-07-20 20:15 UTC (2 hours ago) (HTM) web link (usa.visa.com) (TXT) w3m dump (usa.visa.com) | brianhorakh wrote: | This is awful. I've canceled subscriptions so many times only to | get billed again, and again, blabla "it's a bug in the billing | system" run around. | | So now vendors can keep auto billing with dark patterns such as | unnavigable automated phone lines, and visa is going to take | their side? (because the merchant will have proof of billing | history?) | | I hope Amex doesn't adopt these rules. I am going to think | strongly about canceling my visa cards as a response. | | Bitrix24 a SaaS crm/VoIP service was the worst abuser I can | recall (kept randomly reappearing a $10.00 months after id asked | visa to block them). Free Trial My ass. | phpisthebest wrote: | This is why I use capital ones service to create a new number | for every vendor (similar to privacy.com) then I can just turn | off that card once I cancel the service | vineyardmike wrote: | I think if you can prove that you tried to cancel and the | merchant screwed up you should be fine. Hopefully you have a | paper trail of them admitting its a "bug in Billings". | | Aside: One of the best things about AMEX is their customer | support around chargebacks and I agree I hope they stay super | friendly to this. | InfamousRece wrote: | Cancellation is not always easy. Any "recurring" charge will | helpfully reopen your closed account. I guess it's better to | just use prepaid gift cards for subscriptions. | danlugo92 wrote: | www.privacy.com | rurp wrote: | I totally agree. Chargebacks are one of the few tools consumers | have to fight back against shady companies. I think I've only | done one or two chargebacks in my life, but I have threatened | them other times when dealing with dishonest companies, which | usually leads to them suddenly resolving an "impossible" issue. | | If Visa ends up crippling this ability there's no chance I'll | use their cards again. | toomuchtodo wrote: | > If Visa ends up crippling this ability there's no chance | I'll use their cards again. | | Curious how this makes other options more competitive. If | liberal dispute policies are one of the value props of using | a CC, and merchants eat the fees, the value of using a CC | declines if dispute resolution is tightened up making it | closer to parity of irreversible funds transfers. | | https://www.moderntreasury.com/learn/what-is-fednow | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32098635 | jimbob45 wrote: | It cuts both ways. You could make a very strong argument that | "friendly fraud" is the single reason that the porn industry is | having to turn to crypto. Husbands are frequently caught by | their spouses and, while pretending that the charge was | fraudulent, commit "friendly fraud" themselves. | | I, for one, am very happy to see Visa taking steps against | this. We've kvetched for years over how how much power payment | processors have in the system and now they're finally doing | something about it (themselves, to boot!). | snoopy_telex wrote: | Privacy dot com. It's the only thing I use for anything that's | not a major player (Amazonish). It's saved me a lot of time and | hassle. Cancel the account and the card at the same time. | tumetab1 wrote: | Be aware that "When most people think of fraud, they think of | stolen account numbers or identity theft, but first party misuse, | which can account for up to 75 percent of all chargebacks[1]" | looks like marketing spin. | | The reference points to a marketing newswire that also states | "More than two in five (42%) of surveyed consumers who have filed | disputes did so due to true fraud--e.g., unauthorized purchases | made with their payment information." | https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2021/12/15/235295... | | Going deeper the actually 75% comes is stated on this PDF which | links (sources) from a company that sells... sells dispute | charges services. | https://pages.sift.com/rs/526-PCC-974/images/ebook_Sift_Q4_2... | | Others things to note: No statement by Visa in decreasing taxes | on chargebacks to merchants. | twawaaay wrote: | Chargebacks are used as a kind of punitive measure directed at | merchants. The idea here is for merchants to figure out the | only way to deal with chargebacks is to not get chargebacks at | all. | | For now this works because for some reason relatively few | cardholders are educated enough on what are and how to use | chargebacks. | | I personally wouldn't be using credit card if not for the | chargebacks. I am still paying off entire balance every month, | but I am much happier knowing that any dispute on a transaction | with a credit card is going to be so much easier than any other | form of payment. | rvz wrote: | > A recent study by SIFT found that nearly one in five consumers | who have filed a chargeback dispute have committed first party | fraud by submitting false claims in order to get their money back | on legitimate purchases. In fact, according to the NRF, the | losses from friendly fraud totals over $25 billion a year. | | Yes, this is a problem and so many merchants are getting their | accounts and funds locked up by being unable to fight these | friendly fraud disputes that have been taken advantage of by the | consumer. | | This sort of fraud hurts both the consumer and mostly the | merchant as the bank which doesn't know any of the context of the | payment takes 3 seconds to see the dispute and 98% of the time, | the merchant loses and the bank forcibly takes the money away and | gives it back to the customer, especially for digital | subscriptions. Instead the consumer should contact the merchant | directly to resolve the dispute. | | At least VISA knows it is a problem. What is Mastercard doing | about this? | wilde wrote: | > Instead the consumer should contact the merchant directly to | resolve the dispute. | | Hahaha. Have you tried this recently? I had a company ship us | defective baby food with broken seals. They said they couldn't | refund but they were happy to ship us a replacement. When we | said we wanted a refund instead, they said "whoops we already | shipped it". It arrived with more broken seals. I issued a | chargeback. Got my money instantly. | | Some merchants are bad. Visa's whole value to me is that they | insure me against these situations. | nathanaldensr wrote: | When both sides of a marketplace are willing to commit fraud, | what can the middleman do? Most likely not much. As long as | purchases are not "notarized" or otherwise observed in person | by a neutral third party, it is very, very difficult to | reliably and fairly police unethical or fraudulent intentions | for internet purchases. | im3w1l wrote: | Keep the money for themselves. Disincentives fraud, and it's | profitable too! | noSyncCloud wrote: | >$25 billion a year. | | What an amazing number, wonder where that came from ;) | | Now let's compare that figure to the amount stolen yearly by | unethical merchants :) | tehwebguy wrote: | > "Friendly fraud is not always friendly, especially from a | merchant's perspective," said Mike Lemberger, Senior Vice | President of North America Risk at Visa. | | Incredible quote, Mike must be the smartest guy in the whole | company! | gruez wrote: | Many commenters in this thread seem to be against this change, | but looking at the article they seem... pretty reasonable? | | >With this change, if merchants can provide additional data or | evidence to show that the disputed charge is valid, then the | dispute will be invalid. | | >This change will empower merchants to protect themselves against | first party misuse by enabling them to submit additional evidence | that a purchase was indeed legitimate and authorized by the | cardholder in order to stop the dispute claim. Additional | examples that can help identify that a purchase is legitimate | include a customer using the same payment credential previously | at the merchant, login credentials, proof of use of a product and | more. | uoaei wrote: | It sounds like a great way to create a system that concentrates | and abuses power, not unlike a "secret court". If the company | claims something like "it's covered in the ToS/EULA" what | recourse do consumers have if that statement is not exactly | true? If Visa agrees with Walmart about some nebulous wording | in legalese, where a judge would read it differently, how can | consumers advocate for themselves? Lawsuits are an option only | for those with the time and access to pursue remuneration | through the legal system so that is not a serious option here. | twawaaay wrote: | If I understand this correctly it is essentially doing second | presentment preemptively. ("Hey, Visa, just in case the client | questions authorisation, here you have some additional data to | shoot those down immediately without you having to contact me | for those details") | tristor wrote: | The biggest issue here is that the "proof" allowed essentially | means recurring billing scams can run rampant without any | recourse. Unfortunately a significant amount of "businesses" | online and offline are forms of recurrent billing scams. | Chargebacks are the /only/ protection consumers have against | this form of scam, other than going to court at their own | expense. | | This GREATLY weakens consumer protections for basically no | upside by enabling bad actor merchants. End of story. | BrandoElFollito wrote: | I am not sure I understand the problem. Why is everyone telling | about VISA? Do you deal directly with VISA? | | Here in France (and generally, the EU) your interlocutor is a | bank that happens to deliver VISA or Mastercard cards. | | If something is wrong, you contact your bank which is obligated | to give you back the money and then does an investigation | afterwards. | runnerup wrote: | Considering temporary card numbers like privacy.com are also | getting harder to use... | | I guess I'll just open and close online checking accounts giving | 30-day windows for online purchases using a debit card. | | After 30 days the debit card will no longer be valid, linked to a | closed account, and cannot be charged recurrently. | vineyardmike wrote: | FYI usually banks keep accounts "shadow open" for upwards of | 6mo in case a charge comes through. So you still may get over | drafted. | | These sort of schemes will probably make chargebacks harder to | use than just closing the account that would do the billing. If | the card is leaked/frauded than you're already legally | protected. If you just want to avoid the act of cancelling an | account you opened... then you're playing into the arms race | that is making these things harder. | | > but first party misuse, which can account for up to 75 | percent of all chargebacks, is when a cardholder disputes a | legitimate purchase that they intended with their issuer. This | includes customers refuting valid purchases such as long- | forgotten recurring subscriptions | | If you agree to a purchase, and sign up for something re- | occurring, you're committing to it. You have to tell the | business to stop charging you, you can't just stop paying. | runnerup wrote: | And what when the 8th company this year refuses to honor the | proper cancellation? Lawsuits take way more energy. | snoopy_telex wrote: | I haven't had any issues with privacy cards after the latest | switch. They've not been flagged as prepaid cards for me. | rationalfaith wrote: | atourgates wrote: | There's a tremendous amount of devil in the details of how this | is implemented: | | > "With this change, if merchants can provide additional data or | evidence to show that the disputed charge is valid, then the | dispute will be invalid." | | I've seen (from the merchant side) unfair chargebacks. No | question. | | But my fear is that Visa is going to implement this something | like YouTube copyright claims, where basically, the merchant just | has to respond and that's it. | | The last chargeback I issued was for an electronics seller who | never credited me for a return. I explained the issue to American | Express' automated system. Uploaded receipts (including the | seller's return instructions, and delivery confirmation of the | returned item), and got an instant refund. | | I'd love to know how Visa's changes will affect this type of | chargeback. It's wasn't "fraud" in the sense that someone used my | credit card without authorization. But it certainly was a | merchant that didn't follow up on their end of the deal. | bestouff wrote: | Then they'll finish to loose it to Paypal. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-07-20 23:00 UTC)