[HN Gopher] Standard Ebooks ___________________________________________________________________ Standard Ebooks Author : tosh Score : 497 points Date : 2022-07-24 16:59 UTC (6 hours ago) (HTM) web link (standardebooks.org) (TXT) w3m dump (standardebooks.org) | Thrymr wrote: | The Kindle FAQ [0] is interesting: | | > Why don't you provide mobi files in addition to azw3 files? | | > Standard Ebooks is a small, volunteer-led project, and we don't | have the time or resources to support a second proprietary file | type just because Amazon can't get its act together. We have time | for one or the other, and azw3 is the technically superior format | that provides the better reading experience. | | > Why can't I use "Send to Kindle" to send an azw3 file to my | Kindle? | | > We don't know! You'd think that Amazon would allow you to send | the very file format it invented to its own devices. But Amazon | hasn't made it possible to send azw3 files via "Send to Kindle," | even though they surely could. You should complain to Amazon, or | vote with your wallet and buy a better ereader. | | [0] https://standardebooks.org/help/how-to-use-our- | ebooks#kindle... | AdmiralAsshat wrote: | Caliber's maintainer has similarly pithy remarks about Amazon | if you ever check the MobileRead forums. | | Amazon should officially be supporting EPUB as the send-to- | Kindle option now, so that might no longer be necessary. You | might still have an issue with missing covers, though. | acabal wrote: | This is technically true, however when you do that they | simply convert the epub to mobi on the backend, which is even | worse. | hollandheese wrote: | They're converting it to AZW3 actually. Which makes them | not allowing AZW3 in Send-to-Kindle even more baffling. | AdmiralAsshat wrote: | I'm suspicious whether they're still using MOBI on the | backend, given that they sent me an email about it a few | days ago when I tried to share a mobi file to my mother's | Kindle. The email is below: | | --- | | Dear Kindle Customer, | | Thank you for using the Send to Kindle service to send | personal documents to your Kindle library. We noticed that | the following document(s), sent by you at HH:MM AM on Sun, | Jul DD, 2022 GMT are in MOBI (.mobi, .azw) formats: | <<REDACTED>> | | We wanted to let you know that starting August 2022, you'll | no longer be able to send MOBI (.mobi, .azw) files to your | Kindle library. Any MOBI files already in your library will | not be affected by this change. MOBI is an older file | format and won't support the newest Kindle features for | documents. Any existing MOBI files you want to read with | our most up-to-date features for documents will need to be | re-sent in a compatible format. | | Compatible formats now include EPUB (.epub), which you can | send to your library using your Send to Kindle email | address. We'll also be adding EPUB support to the free | Kindle app for iOS and Android devices and the Send to | Kindle desktop app for PC and Mac. | | If you have any questions, please visit our help page or | contact our Customer Service team. | | Regards, Amazon Kindle Support | | --- | | I would think they might be converting it to some other | format? Otherwise, why yank the feature to send direct | MOBIs anymore? | acabal wrote: | The technical decisions Kindle makes are shrouded in | obscurity, both in logic and in execution... | NoboruWataya wrote: | I have to assume it's at least a precursor to rolling out | broader support for EPUB. | | Unfortunately, I am using a ~12 year old Kindle which | isn't going to be seeing any updates, so discontinuing | send-to-Kindle for MOBI will basically just mean I can't | use that feature anymore. | AdmiralAsshat wrote: | Any reason why you haven't upgraded? I keep an old Kindle | around as well, but just for having a physical Kindle | registered to my account so that I can download the books | I purchase and remove the DRM. All my actual reading is | done on a Kobo. | | At some point Amazon sent me an email that my Kindle | would soon lost storefront access and offered me some | kind of voucher for an upgrade (like 30% off and a $40 | ebook credit). Surely with all that you could've grabbed | a new model during the Prime Day sales for next to | nothing? | jdougan wrote: | I can't speak for him, but my old devices are a pair of | Kindle DXs. AFAICT there is no real upgrade for those. | [deleted] | [deleted] | acabal wrote: | As I'm fond of saying, Kindle is an ecosystem invented by | people who hate books. It's a pity they're the first thing many | people think of when they hear "ebooks." | aorth wrote: | I love this project. Just became a patron. Thanks for all the | hard work and commitment over the years. | virtualritz wrote: | This is fantastic! | | The flabbergasting quality (or absence thereof) of ebooks I | purchase on Amazon is regularly driving me nuts. | | Particularly forced justified layout (lacking hypenation, no | less) - on a mobile phone. Wtf? Don't get me even started about | the 'typography'. | | Great to see there are other people who care about these things. | spansoa wrote: | Bookmarked. Another reminder we are drowning in information on | the web. There's no excuse for not becoming a better version of | yourself due to The Internet. I will certainly read some of the | books hosted on this site. | [deleted] | radicalriddler wrote: | Slightly off topic, but how has Amazon and Kobo picked up the | rights for ebooks? Can anyone set up a ebook marketplace? I'm | assuming it takes quite a bit of negotiating with publishers and | other distributors? | | Anyone have any insights into this process? | [deleted] | jibbers wrote: | I've only read a handful of books from Standard Ebook, but | they've all been amazing quality ebooks -- better than some | ebooks I've paid for through an Amazon Kindle back in the day. | | These folks keep an RSS (love it) with each new book they add to | the collection. The hoarder/collector in me likes to have all | these perfectly formatted books and thanks to the hardworking | people at SE I have, and you can too, some 700 classics for free! | acabal wrote: | Glad to hear you're liking the project! We just added bulk | downloads too, for the collector in you: | https://standardebooks.org/bulk-downloads | willhinsa wrote: | Completely off topic, but the name "standard" makes me think of a | hilarious Bob Mortimer story on "World I Lie To You?" where he | accidentally set his house on fire as a child with a box of | "Standard Fireworks", which he assumed would be very basic and | safe because of the name. | | https://youtu.be/Rqmd39GdDww | mdp2021 wrote: | Lots of philology this weekend... "Standard" is the symbol you | place up high, to "stand hard [firm]", a mark to behold, as if | - then - a parameter. | | So, 'Standard Ebooks' is read as "model ebooks, exemplary of | how they should be made", and the same for the fireworks... In | spite of David Mitchell who wanted to joke on "standard" as | "common" - which is an overly optimistic deviation, and | Mitchell fumbled there, while remaining a good support act for | international treasure the Bob Mortimer, the "Standard" (of | himself). | bdefore wrote: | But standards can be low or high. Can one firmly stand on | unfirm ground? | akprasad wrote: | Wonderful project! I'm working on something similar for a | different language. | | How closely do you work with Distributed Proofreaders? [1] | | [1]: https://www.pgdp.net/c/ | fernly wrote: | As a long-time PGDP volunteer and a some-time Standard Ebook | one, I would say the connection isn't close. The "distributed | proofreaders" at the wonderful PGDP put zillions of hours into | cleaning up and formatting books which are then fed to Project | Gutenberg for distribution. Standard Ebooks picks up the PG | books and re-formats them to their standards. | | Back in the day I was the "post-processor" for a number of PGDP | books. This meant I received the page scan files which had | already been through five (5!) separate passes by volunteer | proofers and compiled them into a single etext in (initially) | HTML, and later Ebook. | | The fact that Standard Ebooks finds typos in PG books (and they | do, and kudos to them for their work) simply underscores the | huge difficulty of cleaning OCR'd text. In the example on the | linked Standard Ebooks front page, the typo of "tne" for "the" | is a very typical "scanno" as they are called at PGDP. Both the | software and the wetware have overlooked the missing vertical | stem of the letter "h". | | However, that particular scanno should never have reached | distribution at PG, because the last two volunteer passes at | PGDP _require_ the volunteer to apply spellcheck before | committing a page as complete, plus the post-processor should | use spellcheck on the finalized book. That example typo must | have come into the PG library at least 20 years ago, or else it | didn't come through PGDP. | | From experience I can say that as an organization Standard | Ebooks are much more tightly managed than most open-source | volunteer outfits, and if you can fit into their system, you | can put in very satisfying hours building books there. (Despite | having formatted some (I thought) handsome works for PGDP, I | couldn't meet the standards of Standard Ebooks, or maybe I was | burned out, and didn't stay with them.) | acabal wrote: | PGDP is an incredible project. We mostly work on the | transcriptions they produce and we specifically avoid creating | our own transcriptions, because PGDP already has such a good | system in place. When people ask for a new transcription we | point them to PGDP instead. | | (We have occasionally done our own transcriptions, since in the | past few years the US public domain has started expanding | again. In these cases we may transcribe a popular book | ourselves to have it ready at the start of the public domain | year, instead of waiting for PDGP's process.) | mike_n wrote: | Is there a set of standard open-source textbooks for k-12 levels? | If not, can we make it happen? | gnicholas wrote: | Yes, CK12. [1] Fun fact: it's run by Neeru Khosla. | | 1: https://www.ck12.org/student/ | llaolleh wrote: | The ebooks here on this website are great. I've been reading | Tolstoy's Confessions from there and it's been a delight. | alexalx666 wrote: | Amazing | NoboruWataya wrote: | Big fan of Standard Ebooks. Another similar project, which I | discovered on HN, is Global Grey: | https://www.globalgreyebooks.com/index.html | acabal wrote: | They've been around for a while, and now I notice that their | cover art format and ebook page layout look vaguely familiar | ... :) | squidbeak wrote: | I appreciate this project very much and constantly wish ebook | standards at the big commercial publishing houses were even half | as good as SE's. | qqquackk wrote: | Can anyone recommend a high quality ebook reader app for Android, | that would be compatible with one or more of the formats this | site offers? | | Also what is this "advanced epub" format they have? I can't see | where they describe the actual difference with "compatible epub". | tharen wrote: | > Can anyone recommend a high quality ebook reader app for | Android, that would be compatible with one or more of the | formats this site offers? | | I use [Librera Reader](https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.foob | nix.pro.pdf.reader/] and | [Voice](https://f-droid.org/en/packages/de.ph1b.audiobook/) for | audio books. | | [KO-Reader](https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.koreader.launch | er.fdroid...) is also recommended, but the one above I found | easier to use, though both seem highly recommended. | | I found these Android apps from this [post on r/androidapps](ht | tps://old.reddit.com/user/Jackie7610/comments/lr5gag/list_...) | | Basically just look for epub, as that is the open standard - | though really it doesn't matter if you use | [Calibre](https://calibre-ebook.com/) as it can convert between | them, but you have to check the types supported yourself... | | > Also what is this "advanced epub" format they have? I can't | see where they describe the actual difference with "compatible | epub". | | They have [an explanation | here](https://standardebooks.org/help/how-to-use-our- | ebooks#which-...), but I would say, when in doubt, just go with | the compatible one. | | _Besides, it 's just a book, I doubt anything will explode if | you use the wrong the version..._ | acabal wrote: | Editor-in-chief here, happy to answer any questions! | badtension wrote: | How do you calculate the reading difficulty? | acabal wrote: | Using the Flesch-Kincaid scale: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki | /Flesch%E2%80%93Kincaid_readabi... | BossingAround wrote: | I wish there was a difficulty for non-native speakers. | Flesch-Kincaid score does nothing for the majority of | readers if it doesn't distinguish between Night and Day | (Woolf) and Shakespeare's Coriolanus. From purely the | language's perspectives, non-native speakers will struggle | with Coriolanus much more due to outdated language. | | Flesch-Kincaid makes little sense to me for books aimed at | adults in general. | lumb63 wrote: | Love this project! I've read several books from Project | Gutenberg and owe a great deal to the project. I love seeing | this extension of it and will be sure to avail myself of it and | possibly contribute one day! | | Not a question, so much as a suggestion from an interested | netizen: it would be great to see changes flowed back up to | Gutenberg. I know they have a process for submitting updates - | I've made several to The Wealth of Nations myself. | | Thanks for sharing the project, and I look forward to my next | read! | robin_reala wrote: | It's down to the producer, but 95% of the SE books I produce | have changes upstreamed to PG. There's no competition between | us: we both serve different niches. | stevage wrote: | How many volunteers do you have? What motivates people to keep | working? | ioblomov wrote: | What a great project! Would you have a need for a veteran web | dev who also happened to be an English major? Took a look at | the volunteer page, but nothing jumped out. | acabal wrote: | Absolutely! Creating epub ebooks is basically creating web | pages. Epubs are just zipped up XHTML files, with exactly the | same semantic structure and CSS styling you'd find on a well- | made web page. That makes web devs with English majors our | ideal type of volunteer! | | Check out our step by step guide to creating an ebook[1] and | then our Wanted Ebook list[2] for some good first-time | productions. Then send a note to our mailing list and we'll | help you through it. | | Creating an ebook is a very satisfying endeavor - I always | say it's like building your own lightsaber. | | [1] https://standardebooks.org/contribute/producing-an-ebook- | ste... | | [2] https://standardebooks.org/contribute/wanted-ebooks | [deleted] | fimdomeio wrote: | Just a note, the line height (leading) when reading a book | online seems too small. | nynx wrote: | I'm curious what format the advanced epub is -- epub v3? | acabal wrote: | Yes, the advanced epubs are just the zipped source repo, | which is epub 3.2, including any "advanced" CSS selectors and | so on. "Advanced" here just means that the epubs are written | with a modern web rendering engine in mind, while most | ereading platforms in the wild are still at an IE6 level of | CSS/HTML rendering support. | | The "compatible" epub is the same epub, but with various | compatibility enhancements automatically added for different | ereading platforms. | | Currently only web browsers can render the advanced epubs at | 100% fidelity. iBooks might be the only non-browser ereading | platform that does a pretty good job with the advanced epubs, | as I believe it uses modern Webkit as its renderer. For any | other ereader, use the compatible epubs. (Or kepubs for | Kobo.) | BossingAround wrote: | Would you have any Android reading app recommendation for | advanced epubs? There are android ereaders, those should | surely be able to handle any epub given the right app, | right? | acabal wrote: | Lithium seems to be fairly good in terms of rendering our | advanced epubs, but it's not perfect; note especially | that it doesn't invert black-and-white SVGs correctly so | unless you set it to a dark page theme, they'll be | "invisible". There are also some other rendering quirks | for things like very big tables used for play formatting. | | Poor renderers are a perennial problem in the epub world | and there seems to be little interest in improving the | situation. Just use the compatible epubs - for reading | purposes they're almost equivalent except in some rare | edge cases. Or, you can use our 'read online in browser' | option to read ebooks directly in your web browser, which | will serve you the source of our advanced epubs. But of | course reading in a browser is less than ideal. | Beldin wrote: | just curious, not planning... | | Would you accept novel translations of non-English classics? | The policy suggests yes, but I imagine such a work would fall | under US copyright (which the policy forbids). | acabal wrote: | If by "novel" you mean "modern", then potentially, but they | would have to be actually good translations, and released to | the public domain via CC0. We only work on public domain | books. | [deleted] | voxl wrote: | Have any of the ebooks included any serious math? I see that | MathML is the expectation, but I wonder if the rules around the | math aren't just ignored because of the rest of the culture | around which books are selected and worked on. | | Indeed, in academic writing I never see MathML used in an HMTL | setting, it's always MathJax or KaTeX. For your purposes this | is probably fine, but imagining if someone wanted to author a | high quality math textbook following the same standard I would | wager they'd run into a brick wall | anjbe wrote: | It's certainly not "serious math," but I'm rather proud of | this revision I made to the MathML used for a throwaway | equation in an obscure short story: | https://github.com/standardebooks/fritz-leiber_short- | fiction... | acabal wrote: | _Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus_ , _Passages from the Life of | a Philosopher_ , and _A Tangled Tale_ are probably our most | MathML-heavy books. | | Books from the PD era are not very likely to feature math | serious enough to require MathML. This is probably for the | best... MathML support in ereaders is poor, with the | exception of iBooks and Kobo. Raw MathML is retained in our | "advanced" epubs, but it's converted to PNGs in our | "compatible" epubs, for this reason. | | https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/ludwig- | wittgenstein/tracta... | | https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/charles- | babbage/passages-f... | | https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/lewis-carroll/a-tangled- | ta... | firstbabylonian wrote: | Do you have any plans to support (and accept contributions to) | non-English books? It'll be amazing to see original Russian | classic texts redone with the same level of care. | acabal wrote: | This is a common request and the answer is unfortunately no. | Typography varies across languages and we are only experts in | English typography. People have tried to start up various SE- | like projects for other languages, but as far as I know none | have taken off. | politelemon wrote: | Would you consider creating a Goodreads collection/list of all | the books in Standard Ebooks? Though I can appreciate if it's | too much work to curate or manage. | | Edit -- oh, is this the list? | https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/140305.Standard_Ebooks | acabal wrote: | We did have one volunteer adding items to Goodreads as we | produced them, but the process was manual and very tedious, | and the ROI was questionable at best. So IIRC he no longer | does that. I'm not against the idea but someone has to | volunteer to pick up the task. | politelemon wrote: | Yeah it's a shame that Goodreads stopped giving out API | keys, that could have helped with automating the list to | some extent at least. | labrador wrote: | I'm getting old and my eye sight is going. Are there any read- | a-loud options you can recommend? The Edge browser does a | decent job on PDF's in a voice you can select, but it's kind of | hacky for an entire book. | Barrin92 wrote: | if you have an Alexa it can read ebooks you've bought on | Amazon. | compscistd wrote: | What's something you'd recommend to a friend as a beach read? | anjbe wrote: | I'll second Alex's recommendations of P. G. Wodehouse | (especially _Jeeves Stories_ ) and Agatha Christie. | | A personal favorite of mine is Jules Verne's _Around the | World in Eighty Days_ : | https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/jules-verne/around-the- | wor... | acabal wrote: | The Book of Wonder is a series of weird short stories, some | of them gloomy and pessimistic but many with a thread of dark | humor. "Chu-bu and Sheemish" is one of my all-time favorite | short stories - it's creative and hilarious. [1] | | I also liked _A Voyage to Arcturus_ , which has become a | modern cult classic. It's probably my favorite book I've read | for SE, though it might be a little heavy for a "beach read." | [2] | | P. G. Wodehouse is always a good bet for lighter reading. [3] | | The Martian books are also light swashbuckling sci-fi. [4] | | _The Murder of Roger Ackroyd_ is considered to be one of the | best murder mysteries ever written. [5] | | [1] https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/lord-dunsany/the-book- | of-w... | | [2] https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/david-lindsay/a-voyage- | to-... | | [3] https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/p-g-wodehouse | | [4] https://standardebooks.org/collections/martian | | [5] https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/agatha-christie/the- | murder... | technothrasher wrote: | The first book I downloaded from standard ebooks was a PG | Wodehouse book. I'd never read him and figured I'd give | both him and the service a try. Neither disappointed. | malshe wrote: | Thanks a lot for doing this! I just downloaded a PG | Wodehouse book on the iPad and I am thoroughly impressed by | the quality of the book! I read PG's books when I was | young. I used to borrow them from a local library so I | don't own any of them. | NelsonMinar wrote: | Do you have a plan for ensuring that Standard Ebooks never gets | overtaken by profit-seeking spam the way Manybooks was? | | Love your project, thank you! | acabal wrote: | There are no guarantees in life, but as long as I'm at the | helm I hope to avoid spam! | | We do accept donations because as SE becomes more popular and | attracts more contributors, managing the project is | approaching the time required for a full-time job. | [deleted] | vmilner wrote: | In general, I love the format, however I notice that (for | example), Hugh Lofting's "The Voyages of Doctor Dolittle" has | none of Lofting's illustrations - which seems a shame in a | children's book - is this a deliberate policy choice? | acabal wrote: | Yes, we purposely don't include decorative illustrations in | any ebook. (With some very rare exceptions.) | jacobolus wrote: | Is that just to cut down on file size? | gault8121 wrote: | What's the rationale for not including illustrations? | acabal wrote: | The ebooks we work on are often very old, and have been | illustrated various times over the years. We don't want | to have to pick and choose a single set of illustrations, | nor do we want to forced to constantly justify exceptions | for everyone's pet book, so we just have a blanket "no | decorative illustrations" policy. | | Note that this only refers to _decorative_ illustrations, | which is not the same as an illustration required to | understand the text. As someone pointed out elsewhere, | books like Sherlock Holmes or Agatha Christie, which can | include narrative-critical illustrations like a map of a | murder scene, or nonfiction which can often have relevant | pictures but are not "illustrated" in the decorative | sense, get to keep their images. | orzig wrote: | I super respect your thoughtful principles. the focus has | clearly paid off! | vmilner wrote: | Thanks - as I suspected, one of those seems to be "The | Return of Sherlock Holmes" where "The Dancing Men" story | needs the illustration to make the story understandable. | Brakenshire wrote: | From someone reading with a Kobo device: | | * Have you considered putting the books onto the official | store? It would make it much smoother to get books on the | device. You could charge a small fee to pay for the effort, I'd | pay the extra to support the project and avoid the hassle of | doing an upload. I just saw above you now do bulk downloads, | which will help also. | | * Although your covers are beautiful, they only appear in a | small corner of the screen for the Kobo devices I've used, even | using the Kepub format, is that a known issue? | | And also to thank you for the effort. This project plays a | really important role and has been a source of pleasure for | many of my friends and family. | acabal wrote: | We've been in touch with Kobo but they haven't expressed a | lot of interest. We do have an integration with the Google | Play store, so if you search for an ebook we have in our | catalog, it should appear near the top. | | I use a Kobo eink device myself and haven't noticed the cover | art problem you're describing. Make sure you're on the latest | firmware, and that you're transferring our kepub files using | a USB cable and not Calibre. (Calibre may attempt to apply | their own conversion on top of our own conversion, which can | result in unexpected things happening.) | Brakenshire wrote: | Thanks for both answers, I use Calibre, so that's the | reason why I'm getting that. | AdmiralAsshat wrote: | I've taken to just opening the SE website in the Kobo | experimental browser and downloading the books directly | onto the device that way. The browser is pretty sluggish, | but even then it only takes a few clicks if you know what | book you're looking for. | acabal wrote: | There's been some talk about improving the Kobo browser | experience, if you want to take a crack at it! | https://github.com/standardebooks/web/issues/126 | AdmiralAsshat wrote: | Are you aware that someone is selling your books on Kobo | with the Standard Ebooks publisher name? | | https://www.kobo.com/us/en/search?query=standard%20ebooks&a | c... | acabal wrote: | Yes, that's going to happen. The books are in the US | public domain and anyone in the US can do anything they | want with them, including reselling them. Obviously we | are not the ones selling these. | AequitasOmnibus wrote: | The stories may be public domain but your arrangement, | and more importantly your trade name _are_ protected. You | may not have the desire to take action like a dmca | takedown, but you 're definitely within your rights to do | so. | AdmiralAsshat wrote: | That's fair, but I'd think the issue was less about | copyright and more...trademark infringement? Since | they're selling _as_ "Standard Ebooks", I think there's | reasonable grounds for confusion that someone browsing | the Kobo store might see one of the books being offered | as coming _from you_ and make a purchase as a kind of | donation, thinking that it 's going towards SE's upkeep | rather than into some random's pocket. | Farbklex wrote: | What would be a good affordable ebook reader to enjoy this books? | TheFreim wrote: | I have a KOBO Libra H20, it is very good. I loaded KOReader on | to it which adds functionality | (https://github.com/koreader/koreader). | pronoiac wrote: | Huh. Choosing a book at somewhat random - Mike by P.G. Wodehouse | - neither the compatible or advanced (experimental?) epubs are | working terribly well in Bluefire Reader on my iPad. I might poke | at this with Calibre. Or if there are recommendations for another | epub reader, with the caveat that I need annotations. | | It looks like the workflow is per book. That ... seems odd. | acabal wrote: | iBooks is at the moment the best ebook renderer for iPad, hands | down. If there are specific issues that look very bad on | Bluefire Reader, please send a note to our mailing list with | details so we can take a look! | dirkt wrote: | Calibre actually does horrible things to the HTML source that | hides in each epub. While Standard Ebooks do promote awesome | HTML. If you run Calibre on it, it's ruined. | | An epub is just a zip file. Open it up, look inside, see for | yourself. | rkapsoro wrote: | Isn't this only if you use Calibre to do a _conversion_ on | the epub? | | Calibre can just be used as a library, right? | zufallsheld wrote: | Can you explain or link to some resources on what calibre | does with ebooks? | hackernewds wrote: | Sad this only has 9/70 patrons?? | billybuckwheat wrote: | This is a great project. It's really prodded me to reread some | classics, and read more than a few I've never tried to tackle | before. | | I really should donate a few dollars to the project to show my | appreciation and to try to help (in a small way) keep it going. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-07-24 23:00 UTC)