[HN Gopher] Logistics, How Did They Do It, Part I: The Problem
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Logistics, How Did They Do It, Part I: The Problem
Author : herodotus
Score : 102 points
Date : 2022-07-26 15:19 UTC (7 hours ago)
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(TXT) w3m dump (acoup.blog)
| antonymy wrote:
| I underestimated how much of warfare was about grain shipments
| until I read Caesar's Commentaries on the Gallic Wars. Now it's
| all I think about whenever I see pre-modern armies depicted in
| media, is where they get their bread and corn.
| herodotus wrote:
| Are there any computer or table top war games that deal in a
| somewhat realistic way with logistics?
| [deleted]
| hef19898 wrote:
| Battletech, both the tabletop and the last PC game, do a decent
| job. The former mainly in some of the added rule books (I think
| Tactical Ops and Strategic Ops in the last edition, before
| there was one called Tactical Handbook) which even go as deep
| as covering things like Depot and Factory modifications to
| military hardware (in that case Mechs) that is generally
| speaking pretty much in line with how modern military systems
| are managed. There are some more abstract systems using pool
| points for ease of book keeping.
|
| The PC game takes some short cuts for ease of use (improvements
| to the base dropship the merc unit is using) and is assuming
| spares and consumables are readily available. It is covering
| the basic principals rather well so.
| dv_dt wrote:
| I don't think it's a war game per se, but wars can occur in
| Dwarf Fortress. And there can definitely be some very detailed
| logistics involved.
| brazzy wrote:
| Completely different kind of logistics, both in scope and in
| focus. in Dwarf fortress, it's about equipping, training and
| supporting a double- or low triple digit number of soldiers
| operating in or very near their base.
|
| The logistics we're talking about concern the problem of
| having about a hundred or even a thousand times more soldiers
| move large distances away from their base, and avoid having
| them starve.
| rich_sasha wrote:
| This one [1] is famously detailed. There are 23 pages in the
| manual dedicated just to logistics. A famous example of the
| level of detail is that Italian troops require an extra portion
| of water supplies to cook pasta.
|
| As per the linked article:
|
| > Reviewer Luke Winkie pointed out that "If you and your group
| meets for three hours at a time, twice a month, you'd wrap up
| the campaign in about 20 years.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Campaign_for_North_Africa
| gregsadetsky wrote:
| 192 pages total. Wow.
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20220608080417/https://www.spiga.
| ..
| tekla wrote:
| Eve Online. Try fighting a war without freighters full of fuel,
| ammo, and replacement ships. Its a full time job by itself.
| waynesonfire wrote:
| > Its a full time job by itself.
|
| Indeed, the game is a full time job.
| sofixa wrote:
| I'm not sure I'd say realistic _per se_ , but Hearts of Iron
| 4's (WW2 grand strategy game) new logistics system is pretty
| good IMHO. You need to manufacture enough of each war machine
| (with the necessary raw materials), then handle supply through
| railways, supply hubs (and trucks/horses from then on,
| depending on terrain, type and number of divisions and of
| course if you have enough trucks) and convoys if supplying
| overseas.
| NoNameProvided wrote:
| It's worth a note that this was introduced with the latest
| DLC, and the AI currently is hopelessly broken as it does not
| understand the importance of defending your railway lines
| connecting your supply depots.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > Are there any computer or table top war games that deal in a
| somewhat realistic way with logistics?
|
| ISTR that the big strategic/operational tabletop games of the
| 1980s often had semi realistic depictions of at least the
| importance of logistic (at least supply); things like WWII
| European (or Pacific) Theater of Operations from SPI, Avalon
| Hill's Empires in Arms (which I just learned has a still-
| actuvely-maintained official computer version), etc.
| allturtles wrote:
| The Operational Combat Series[0] is famous within the hex-and-
| counter wargame community for its logistic systems. It deals
| only with mid-twentieth century conflict. Supply point counters
| are brought near the front by land,sea, or air transport, and
| then consumed by troops to fight.
|
| More recently, the Levy and Campaign series[1] tries to
| seriously address the kind of pre-modern logistical problems
| that are discussed by the OP. You have to feed your troops, and
| can get food by hauling it with you (in which case you need to
| acquire the necessary transport) or by ravaging the local
| countryside (which has other side effects).
|
| Generally speaking, there just aren't many pre-modern tabletop
| wargames (World War II is by far a more popular topic), and
| most of the ones that do exist are "tactical" games that deal
| only with single battles, and so bypass all the logistical
| issues.
|
| This thread[2] on boardgamegeek may be of interest, there are
| probably other similar threads there, too.
|
| [0]: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgamefamily/80/series-
| operatio... [1]:
| https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgamefamily/72536/series-levy-...
| [2]: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2265815/games-about-
| logisti...
| ca7 wrote:
| Regarding OCS, supply is broken down mainly into ammo and
| fuel. No ammo = no combat. No fuel = no movement. OCS makes
| you commit to operations you plan to perform _in the future_
| as you have to build up supply in an area (and then have a
| logistics network to "throw" the supply to units) to launch
| operations. The opponent is also doing this at the same time.
| nullstyle wrote:
| Foxhole entrenched is a game to look at
| dEnigma wrote:
| Foxhole was also the first thing that popped into my head.
| I'm not sure how "realistic" you can call it, but there are
| certainly some interesting interactions/dynamics displayed
| when it comes to logistics.
|
| https://store.steampowered.com/app/505460/Foxhole/
| Phenomenit wrote:
| I would love to have this wonderful blog recorded as a podcast.
| Khoth wrote:
| Not technically a podcast, but if you want to listen to them,
| someone has recorded themselves reading (most of) the posts:
| https://www.youtube.com/c/AGreatDivorce/videos
| Animats wrote:
| We can see this today with Russia's early Ukraine campaign. The
| attacking armored forces moved fast at first, but outran their
| logistics tail. Large military operations have reasonably well
| defended rear bases, a moving attack front, and a "communications
| region" in between. The communications region is vulnerable; the
| attackers don't yet have full control of that region. Both air
| and ground attacks on the communications region were used in
| Ukraine. If the tip of the spear can be slowed down, the
| attackers are forced into a battle that uses more resources. If
| the defender can prevent those resources from moving forward, the
| attackers run out of fuel and ammo. Towards the end of the attack
| on Kyiv, Ukrainian troops were finding "lost orcs", Russian
| soldiers separated from their units. Some were just disarmed and
| told "Russia is that way, start walking".
|
| So, having failed at a complicated, fast campaign, Russia has
| moved to a simpler form - bring up many troops and artillery and
| slowly pound the opposition into rubble. It's like WWI. That kind
| of war can go on for years if enough resources are available. It
| seems to be working for Russia.
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