[HN Gopher] U.S. Army Camouflage Improvement Explained (2013) ___________________________________________________________________ U.S. Army Camouflage Improvement Explained (2013) Author : BonoboIO Score : 248 points Date : 2022-08-01 13:57 UTC (9 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.hyperstealth.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.hyperstealth.com) | chasebank wrote: | Tangentially related - | | Arguably the most famous golf course architect, Dr. Alister | MacKenzie (Augusta National, Cypress Point, Pasatiempo, etc), was | a civilian physician in WWI and became interested in camouflage | design during the war. He made significant contributions to the | British military camouflage during his tenure. He later based his | golf course architecture, primarily the bunkering, from | camouflage design principals he had learned. | | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alister_MacKenzie | yboris wrote: | WWI & WWII related: the _Dazzle Camouflage_ for ships! | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzle_camouflage | chasebank wrote: | Thanks! That was interesting! Now I know where the phrase | razzle dazzle came from! | jrochkind1 wrote: | the term seems to pre-date the camo. | | > The expression was then always in the form of 'give | someone the razzle-dazzle', that is, confuse them. The | earliest use that I can find of that sense of 'razzle- | dazzle' is the US newspaper The Saint Paul Globe, April | 1885: | | >> Sir: As you seem to be in earnest in your efforts to | give someone the dazzle-dazzle... [I think that's a typo | and the original source is indeed razzle-dazzle as being | discussed!] | | > The expression very quickly came to be used with a more | positive intent, that is, where 'razzle-dazzle' was | considered to be indicate enjoyment rather than deception. | That's found in the Pennsylvania newspaper The Daily | Republican, June 1887: | | >> A meeting at City Hall resolved to celebrate the Fourth | [of July] by a general old-time razzle-dazzle. | | https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/razzle-dazzle.html | jeffrallen wrote: | The parts about "they changed it but didn't test it and then | we're surprised when it didn't work right" made me so mad I | couldn't finish reading it. | | Arrrrgh. | JoelMcCracken wrote: | I feel like eventually they'll be back to highland plaids as | being the optimal pattern. | XorNot wrote: | Anyone reading should check out the links at the bottom: the | nightvision images in particular really highlight the issue with | having poor NIR performance. | JohnTHaller wrote: | [2013] | trhway wrote: | It is 21st century. Flex OLEDs displaying pattern depending on | your background is your camo. Your tank is covered with 80inch | displays too. | dqpb wrote: | color e-ink displays would be kind of fun | sillysaurusx wrote: | Now I want to show up at our Zoom meetings in full camo. Doctors | and soldiers get such cool uniforms, but us programmers are just | business casual. | | Plus then you could convince a few of your coworkers to show up | in camo with you and make your manager nervous you're about to do | a hostile takeover of the company. | biofox wrote: | I go for the classic 'Big Blue' look and wear a suit and tie. | Helps me to mentally separate work and relaxation time, with | the added benefit of getting better treatment from management. | the_af wrote: | Out of curiosity, in which kind of company do you work? In | many techie environments, wearing a suit and tie would select | you out of the job... | dfc wrote: | I like to dress up for work. If I have ever missed a job | opportunity because I dressed "too formally" I think they | did me a favor. | corrral wrote: | > Doctors and soldiers get such cool uniforms, but us | programmers are just business casual. | | Programmers' uniforms are excessively-expensive hiking clothes, | or selvedge jeans with flannel and full-grain leather boots, | ideally in a work- or jump-boot style. | ahazred8ta wrote: | "his colleagues, a gender-parity posse of young, smart- | looking people, along with one graybeard (literally -- he had | a Unix beard of great rattiness and gravitas) who had no | fewer than seven devices on his belt, including a line tester | and a GPS." -- Cory Doctorow | rthomas6 wrote: | Related: the engineer's uniform of blue oxford button down | shirt, khakis, and Clark Desert Boots. | shard wrote: | This makes me think of the camo scenes in RDJ's Sherlock Holmes | movie: https://tenor.com/view/sherlock-holmes-robert-downey-jr- | chai... | cobertos wrote: | I really like the mandatory programming socks my company | prescribes. Waaaay better than business casual | mothsonasloth wrote: | Interesting take on design decisions for modern camouflage. | | In my opinion Tigerstripe camouflage is one of the best patterns | to be invented both for aesthetics and function. | | Followed by British DPM in second place. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigerstripe | 323 wrote: | Somewhat related, urban sniper camouflage: | | https://i.imgur.com/hhQDS9c.jpeg | [deleted] | malkia wrote: | Why do (US?) hunters go in camouflage? Would that trick the | animals... or rather trick other hunters, and not see them... | always seemed weird going in full camouflage... for hunting. | happyopossum wrote: | Most hunters in the US wear a blaze orange vest or hat to | identify themselves to other hunters. In some states it's | codified by law, and in others it's strongly encouraged (in | California it's a big part of the mandatory hunter safety | course, but is not legally required). | | Many big game animals are color-blind (or more specifically, | see color differently than we do), so a camo pattern with | orange can still hide one from a deer, while making you visible | to humans. | bendur_ wrote: | For deer (with guns), yes. For things like turkeys, ducks, | geese, deer with bows, etc they do not. In hunter safety they | really stressed to be careful hunting turkeys. | shard wrote: | What if the deer is also color-blind? What colors do deer see | anyway? | bendur_ wrote: | Deer have a hard time with orange and red, which makes the | blaze orange work well for deer hunting. Deer don't notice, | and people really notice. | jessaustin wrote: | Ungulates see yellow and blue, but not red. | | https://www.rmef.org/elk-network/what-you-see-isnt-what- | that... | jabl wrote: | Slightly related, in case anyone wonders why most military | aircraft are gray and not the camouflage patterns that were | previously common on top surfaces, hushkit has a writeup: | https://hushkit.net/2020/03/09/grey-aircraft-who-is-to-blame... | | tl;dr: gray is a good camouflage color against clouds or haze, | which is a fairly common background for aircraft operating at mid | to high altitudes. | | (The logic is fairly similar to what results in Navy ships being | painted haze gray and not azure blue or whatever color the ocean | happens to be today) | battery_glasses wrote: | If you want this website to remotely readable you can run this in | your browser console when the page is up: | | document.querySelectorAll('p').forEach(elm => elm.style.width = | "93vw") | [deleted] | russellbeattie wrote: | I really wish Chrome for Android had a menu option for "Show | Simplified View", rather than just guessing. Some of the worst | sites won't trigger it, presumably because the HTML is so | simple the algorithm assumes you don't need it. | wyager wrote: | An interesting evolution in the camouflage meta is the | proliferation of inexpensive thermal cameras. Chinese companies | like Infiray are producing reasonably-priced thermal monoculars | that defeat all colour-based camo. Low-spec monos and COTI-style | devices start around $2k and high-spec (around 720p 50Hz) for | around $5k, same price as a nice omni VIII NVG mono. | woevdbz wrote: | Feels like a great application for adversarial generative | networks | causi wrote: | _It appears that someone circumnavigated the scientific process | and forced UCP in._ | | That would be whoever benefitted financially from the decision to | fuck our soldiers over. | furyg3 wrote: | I mean, there is an obvious (gigantic) budgetary and logistical | advantage of having one form of camouflage for all situations | over more than one. | | If it works, of course, which it doesn't. | bovermyer wrote: | Much more likely is that multiple entities just wanted | something done quickly and didn't follow all the right | procedures the way they should have been. | | Don't presume malice when incompetence will do. | michaelbuckbee wrote: | Having worked (as a civilian contractor) for the military it's | equally plausible that the decision was screwed up for other | reasons. High up decision makers that "trust their gut" over | what the data tells them or who arbitrarily decide that a | certain pattern looks silly to them. | | It's absolutely not intuitive that the digital looking blocky | camouflage patterns [1] are going to perform better than the | blob style camo patterns they replaced. | | 1 - https://www.businessinsider.com/why-militaries-have- | strange-... | bumby wrote: | Commanders have wide discretion and it's part of the | decentralized command mindset. They can sometimes make such | decisions on no more than "I think this pattern looks cooler | than that pattern" | bityard wrote: | Yep. But it depends on the relationship the commander has | with his or her superior officer. Some commanders are | burdened with having to justify every single decision they | make. Others have basically free reign to lead how they see | fit (for better or worse) as long as they stay within the | regulations. | olalonde wrote: | Hanlon's razor strikes again. | sam_lowry_ wrote: | Are these people in prison yet? | bovermyer wrote: | You're assuming malicious intent, multiple co-conspirators, | and illegal action. | | None of that information is available to you. | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | What law was broken? | _tomcat_ wrote: | idk, but it seems to undermine national security. | | Maybe in here somewhere, "Various statutes supplement the | provisions of Chapter 37 to criminalize activities that | jeopardize the national defense or national security." | | IANAL ;) | some_random wrote: | I'm sure the senior military officials pushing UCP | through were doing so to intentionally handicap the | organization they spent their entire life working for. | Rather than just making a mistake based on overestimating | their own knowledge. If that's criminalized, all of HN is | going behind bars. | _tomcat_ wrote: | thats a weird take, very defensive. But, since youre sure | about it I guess everyone should be too. | | I'm sure no one is trying to destroy US democracy either | or stage insurrections, etc. oh wait... | | If I had to guess, I'd say it was intentional and all | about money. That could make it illegal. Even if they | didn't intend to lose in combat, it still gave US | soldiers a handycap. | some_random wrote: | So to sum things up, you're suggesting that either US | army officials in 2004 chose UCP to weaken the US | military in preparation for a fascist coup in 2020 OR | they chose a US gov owned pattern over commercial | patterns to make money (somehow)? And you're calling my | response defensive and weird lmao | PastaArt wrote: | They said their guess is "money". This looks like your | trying to put words in someone elses mouth. The examples | of corruption in government seems to be just that, | examples. | | Im not sure why you try to act like they all need to be | tied together somehow? | | Seem pretty defensive & weird. | some_random wrote: | Alright so to avoid putting words in anyone's mouth, | please outline how corruption could have caused the US to | fast track a pattern it developed itself rather than one | of the superior commercial patterns that they would have | had to pay royalties on. | _tomcat_ wrote: | The US didn't fast track anything, individuals did. As | far as motive goes, there could be many reasons, and what | might be able to motivate you may not have the effect on | someone else. Since you want something to help you | understand motivation and how it relates to corruption, | here is a link with some explanations. | | https://hackbrain.net/main-causes-of-corruption/ | | Happy reading! | [deleted] | pookha wrote: | I was deployed to CENTCOM in the USAF when these uniforms | went into service. Worked closely with Army...If memory | serves they were flammable and poorly tested (circa | 2006). I can remember the Army units I talked to were | having major problems. So if you had the misfortune of | getting deployed outside the wire and had to wear those | things I could see why you might be a little keyed up 15+ | years later. | some_random wrote: | Seeing as UCP is owned by the US government, I'm very curious | to hear who could have financially benefited from its | selection. If anything, HyperStealth here is the one with the | financial motivation seeing as their US4CES pattern was not | selected. | jcranmer wrote: | If I'm reading this correctly, the decision process that resulted | in the horribly-ineffective UCP pattern amounts to: "We want one | pattern. So let's pick one color from the best camo patterns in | every environment [the only one that has good NIR performance], | and the result will somehow work well!" Which is... yowzers. | | (For what it's worth, the Multicam pattern, which is slightly | modified to the OCP pattern now in use by the US Army/Air Force, | manages to do a better job than the UCP pattern at actually being | universal camo, and it's not even the best of the tests.) | | The NIR requirements means you can almost see how the decision | might be justifiable... but that no one actually tested the | resulting pattern as a check? I mean, one of the most salient | facts about human color processing is that we evaluate colors | based on their surrounding context, so even if individual colors | work well, you would need to check their performance in their | context to make sure they _still_ work well. | alexb_ wrote: | I'm in the Air force, and while not relevant to actual | camouflage ability, I can personally say that OCPs look _much_ | nicer than the uniforms before. A lot of the old camo patterns | looked painfully ugly. And the ability to camouflage isn 't too | relevant for me anyways, unless I'm trying to blend into | chairs/desks. | mensetmanusman wrote: | It would be funny to have chairs and desks with the same | pattern so you would actually blend in... | munificent wrote: | Relevant famous old photo: | | https://soldiersystems.net/wp- | content/uploads/2019/09/img_64... | jessaustin wrote: | Who left his boots on the couch?! | bityard wrote: | C'mon, the Army and Marines already give the Air Force | enough crap... I can just imagine it now... "Hey Airman | Ikea, we need a good desk lamp over here, is that something | you can help us with?" | dotancohen wrote: | > the decision process that resulted in the horribly- | ineffective UCP > pattern amounts to: "We want one | pattern | | Just wait until you read how the F-35 was procured. "We want | one airplane for the Air Force, Navy, and Marines. Oh, and it | had to include parts from almost all NATO allies, even those | who we won't sell it to." | ghaff wrote: | Which was not an unreasonable goal to at least _consider_ | given the well-known tendency of all the service branches to | want their own unique "toys." | antisthenes wrote: | Tell me you want a jobs program without telling me you want a | jobs program. | vopi wrote: | The F-35 ended up being great though. Even now, it's cheaper | on a per unit basis than other aircraft that are worse. | jessaustin wrote: | If you had stopped with the first sentence, we could have | written it off as sarcasm. | | _The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program appears to be in a | state of suspended development, with little progress made | in 2021 toward improving its lackluster performance. The | latest report by the Pentagon's Director, Operational Test | & Evaluation (DOT&E) reveals stagnation and even | backsliding in some fleet reliability measures. | | And that's just the public DOT&E report. | | In an unprecedented move, DOT&E is concealing many of the | key details of the F-35's poor performance. For the first | time ever, the testing office created a non-public | "controlled unclassified information" version of its | report, and although there is much overlap between the two | versions, the meaningful details about the ever-troubled | program are only included in the non-public one._ | | https://www.pogo.org/analysis/2022/03/f-35-program- | stagnated... | vopi wrote: | Could you comment on the price aspect I thought up? As I | understand it is cheap and only the cost per hour is an | issue. Obviously the actual program is expensive, but I | wanna ignore that for now and focus on the actual | performance. | | Because I'm at work and can't look through the full 372 | page non-public report linked, can you provide some page | numbers I could look at? I'm curious what the actual | issues are in actual use. | | Btw I'm not of the same mindset of the other guy, I'm not | gonna call you a "Luddite Reformer" because I saw a | YouTube video. | | From when I know many of the issues are FUD, but | obviously there is real issues and I'd like to better | educate myself. But I am just a layman with limited | research time. | jessaustin wrote: | _I am just a layman with limited research time._ | | You and me both! Given the wild swings in points-voting | seen ITT, it seems perhaps MIC reptiles and other lovers | of arcane jargon have more time on their hands than we | mere subjects have. I linked the POGO report first as it | seems most authoritative with respect to overall program | cost and military effectiveness. With respect to the | specific question of cost/plane (although I don't think | we can just forget cost/hour), this Forbes article has | the best explanation I've seen. [0] The beginning of the | following selection acknowledges one accounting method | that might support the idea that the unit cost is low. | However, when more accurate methods are used, that idea | makes less sense. | | _At $78 million the fifth-generation F-35A's unit cost | compares favorably to the latest non-stealth | 4.5-generation Western fighter. The Rafale, Typhoon, | Gripen-E and F-15EX are more expensive at $85 to $100 | million apiece. The older F-16 and Super Hornet are | modestly cheaper at $65 to $75 million each. But while | these aircraft do have certain performance advantages | over the F-35, all are vastly more vulnerable to long- | range anti-aircraft missiles proliferating in militaries | across the globe. | | However, the F-35 unit price metric has the shortcoming | of failing to reflect additional costs in spare parts, | logistics facilities and so forth that come with F-35 | purchases. When those are spread out across F-35A orders | in 2021 they lead to a 'Gross Weapon Unit Cost' in budget | documents of $110 million for 2021, higher than in | preceding years due in part to decreased volume of | orders. | | Overall, though, a moderate increase in unit price | arguably isn't the main issue, because procurement costs | account for less than a quarter of the $1.7 trillion | projected lifetime cost of the F-35 program. | | Instead, a report published by the Government | Accountability Office (GAO) on July 7 warns that its | sustainment--currently expected to total $1.27 trillion | in real dollars--which threatens to break the Pentagon | budget._ | | [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/sebastienroblin/2021/07/ | 31/f-35... | some_random wrote: | It's so interesting how luddite Reformers hold such a | sway over the usually techno-optimist HN. Turns out that | new technology has teething problems, what a shocker. | jessaustin wrote: | Wow, my first comment on the thread, consisting entirely | of a quote from expert analysts, and already I'm a | "luddite Reformer". (Idiosyncratic capitalization also | doesn't help you seem balanced and rational.) | | This turkey was designed in the 1990s. The contract was | awarded in 2001. The first f35 flew in 2006. When will | this "technology" no longer be "new"? Presumably it will | be some time, since the entire fleet was grounded again | last week due to safety concerns. | | https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-29/f-35-f | lee... | some_random wrote: | As far as I know you're not a Reformer, which is a proper | noun and therefore capitalized, but the "expert analyst" | you quoted is. Honestly that tells me enough about your | familiarity with this subject | jessaustin wrote: | Please link to any source that indicates "Luddite" | shouldn't be capitalized or "reformer" should, especially | with Capt. Grazier cited as some sort of exemplar of the | concept. You've had lots to say ITT but haven't cited a | single authority to indicate you're not just making it | all up. | Armisael16 wrote: | The Reformers were/are a group arguing for a particular | class of weapons and vehicles in procurement, mostly | focusing on relatively low-tech solutions. They're most | famous for their influence in the Fighter Mafia and in | the Bradley (see: Pentagon Wars). They're... | controversial. | | That one gets capitalized because it's a proper noun (is | that a confusion name? sure). | | Luddite strictly should be capitalized as well, but there | isn't any confusion around that one and it isn't the | focus, so I can understand why it wasn't capitalized. I | wouldn't've. | spamizbad wrote: | I think the reason why you're getting some pushback is | because we've heard all these before with another | aircraft that had similar teething and development | problems: the F-15. | | The F-15 project was supposed to be a small and light | fighter but feature creep" blew the project up into a | massively expensive boondoggle. Some of this was due to | the fear of the MIG-25; an aircraft we later learned | wasn't so scary. | | Yet today, the overpriced, chronic cost-overruning F-15 | sits at an impressive 109:0 kill to loss ratio, making it | the best performing aircraft in the United State's | history. | | But you would be correct in saying the F-35 is no F-15. | It has a stealth coating that is expensive to maintain | (this is true for all stealth aircraft). It also flies | with a ton of electronics to function as a "sensor | network in the sky". | | But in many ways, this is similar to the complaints about | the F-15 and its (For the time) dizzying array of modern | technologies: An advanced lookdown/shootdown radar, | support for BVR missiles, IFF, EW and ECM systems all | linked to a central computer. Technically other aircraft | had these technologies in the 1970s, but none until the | F-15 had them all in the same aircraft. Fast-forward a | few decades and that "feature creep" doesn't even quality | as "bare bones" for any air superiority fighter. | | Anyway, if you want a multi-role aircraft without the | stealth or sensor network gizmos of the F-35 there's the | Gripen E series. Its purchase price is greater than the | F-35 but its operating costs are much less. If you don't | envision your country's airforce performing too many SEAD | missions this tradeoff might make sense... but there's no | free lunch! | bumby wrote: | I believe the list is long of airframes where you could | initially find this complaint. I think the F18 had | similar concerns after it originally lost its | experimental competition to the F16. But the F18 found | itself as a capable workhorse for the Navy for decades. | Same with the Space Shuttle, etc. | spamizbad wrote: | The F-16, incidentally, got loaded to the gills with | expensive gizmos after the fact because the Airforce (and | other F-16 customers) quickly realized it made the | aircraft a far more effective platform. | formerly_proven wrote: | > This turkey | | Spreyian detected, opinion discarded. | bumby wrote: | You do understand that most new airframes take a decade | or more of R&D before they are put in service, right? | jessaustin wrote: | This thing _is_ in service, so conventional wisdom about | how long it takes to do stuff before that is irrelevant. | From the introduction of my original link: | | _Despite more than 20 years and approximately $62.5 | billion spent so far on research and development alone, | program officials still haven't been able to deliver an | aircraft that can fly as often as needed or to | demonstrate its ability to perform in combat, which | places military personnel in jeopardy._ | | I would have said the "R&D decade" was the _1990s_ since | JAST began in 1993 and developmental contracts were | awarded in 1996, but POGO are conservative in their | judgments. | bumby wrote: | Your first comment was about suspended development, | implying you think the system should be part of a | continuous R&D cycle. Yet this comment implies you think | the system should be outside of development. It's hard to | tell what you're criticizing when your points are | inconsistent. | | I question some of the critiques in your link. For | example, they claim the JSFs 61% availability rates are | far below the standard of 75-80%. But if you look at | published numbers, none of the legacy aircraft | F15/F16/F18 variants (which have had decades to work out | reliability issues) are above a 60% availability.[1] | | What, specifically, are you critical of in terms of the | JSF capability? Is that criticism due to what you | perceived as mismanaged development or mismanaged | priorities (e.g., the tradeoffs of a single platform)? | And what is the base rate for comparison? | | [1] https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57713 | jessaustin wrote: | I don't agree that any of my statements have had any of | those implications. USA citizens have the right to | complain about any expensive government program. F35 is a | $1.7T program, which qualifies as expensive. It's | perfectly ordinary to see administrators of non-military | programs called before Congress and raked over the coals | for spending that seems excessive to some legislator | playing to the basest instincts of voters. We recently | decided, somehow, that a few billion dollars was too much | of a tax _credit_ to justify keeping _millions_ of | American children out of poverty. [0] We never see any | elected politician complaining about military spending, | however. | | It's a commonplace that we spend more on the military | than the next ten nations put together, most of whom are | our allies. That obscures the more amazing fact that over | a third of the military spending _in the world_ is spent | by USA. Obviously the Pentagon budget should be halved if | not quartered, as we were promised before the Saudis | dropped the WTC. In such a context, there would be no | room for a plane that offers the prospect of more expense | instead of more capability. Northrop lobbyists and their | employees at think tanks and in the media might be able | to dry-lab some "rates" and "figures" to distract from | the obvious state of the F35 program. The scale of the | disaster cannot be hidden from unbiased investigators. | Even if it never makes the evening war media news, those | who care to know can consult experts like POGO. | | However, if you insist on a criticism in the proper | jargon, F35 will never, ever, regardless of how much is | spent, be as capable at close air support as the vastly | less expensive A10 "Warthog". You can ask any American | serviceman who has served on the ground in the last two | decades. This isn't the only important role for a | military aircraft, but it is an important role. | | [0] https://www.povertycenter.columbia.edu/news- | internal/monthly... | bumby wrote: | I agree with much of what you say. The citizenry have | every right to criticize and lobby for their tax dollars | to be spent differently. But it appears you've already | come to the conclusion that the JSF isn't worthwhile. Put | differently, what would the JSF need to show capability- | wise in order to change your mind? | | I would like to see us spend less in the military if it | goes to better use instead. Particularly when commanders | are advocating getting rid of programs and Congress keeps | them anyway. The US is effectively subsidizing NATOs | military capability and mitigating the blowback requires | more thoughtful analysis than just slashing the budget. | I'm not convinced yet that POGO are the experts worth | listening to because they seem a bit out of touch (see my | last comment about what they claim the availability | should be vs. the parity that matters). | | As one of those service members who was supported by the | A10 overseas, you're right. Grunts on the ground love the | sound of that cannon overhead when close air support is | needed. But you are comparing the one specialized thing | the A10 was designed to do. Stray in any direction away | from that and it loses the comparison miserably. Compare | avionics, speed, maneuverability and munitions capability | etc. (really, anything outside of the cannon) and the JSF | is just far superior. In other words, if I was only | allowed to have one plane in theater, it wouldn't be the | A10. | jcranmer wrote: | Wanting one pattern to work everywhere isn't necessarily a | bad goal. The OCP pattern, for example, works decently in | most environments, and is basically superior to the UCP | pattern in virtually all environments (it's marginally weaker | in NIR, though). So the real problem seems to be that the | criteria for deciding the best pattern was chosen | incompetently. | foxyv wrote: | There is an argument out there that the UCP camo patterns were | more to make US troops distinct from enemy forces and reduce | friendly fire than to provide any advantage for camouflage | purposes. That it made American troops extremely identifiable | by the distinct look of UCP. | | I don't know if I believe it, but it makes a little sense. What | would have made more sense is if they had allowed tinting it to | different colors based on the region. There is an example here: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WckhOUMfHk | autokad wrote: | when I was playing paintball, some people would wear that junk. | they may as well wear bright orange hunting jackets. I can see | them easily. | wyager wrote: | One thing I was surprised to learn about NIR requirements is | that it apparently doesn't just mean "dark". I have some coyote | brown NIR compliant gear (water carriers etc) and under NIR it | has the same shade as grass (which is quite bright, relatively | speaking). | spicymaki wrote: | Today's camo is so much better than the red coats the British | were wearing in the 18th century. _chuckle_ | chrisseaton wrote: | The British red coats were a kind of dazzle camouflage, making | it hard to see individuals within the group. People weren't | stupid back then - they just had different design goals to what | we have now. | Alupis wrote: | Flamboyantly colored uniforms of the time also helped prevent | friendly fire. Each volley of musket fire filled the air with | a white smoke cloud. [1][2] | | [1] https://d1w82usnq70pt2.cloudfront.net/wp- | content/uploads/202... | | [2] https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhammer-historicals-firing- | in-... | function_seven wrote: | "Lieutenant! We're sticking out like sore thumbs here! Why | did we go with _bright-fucking-red_ as our uniform colour? | The enemy can clearly see us coming! " | | "Corporal, your job is to bang on that drum as we march, not | complain about military fashion." | chrisseaton wrote: | > We're sticking out like sore thumbs here! | | As I just said, the design consideration wasn't to not | stick out. | | 'Shock action' is a modern military term, but that's partly | what they were trying to achieve in those days through | visual impact. 'Shatter the enemy's cohesion and will to | fight' is something they were trying to achieve through | visual impact. | | As another example today, think about why the UN paint | their vehicles white. It's because their visibility and | presence on the battlefield provides a tactical effect. | seanw444 wrote: | > UN | | > Tactical effect | | Hehe. Last thing I want helping me are Peacekeepers. | denton-scratch wrote: | I didn't think that UN peacekeepers appeared on | battlefields - don't they normally stay in their bases, | or patrol peaceful areas? There usually has to be some | peace before the peacekeepers rock up. | chrisseaton wrote: | > don't they normally stay in their bases, or patrol | peaceful areas | | The point is they turn up and show they're there to react | if needed. You can see they're there because they're | painted white. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Protection_F | orc... | | I think 60 or so British UN peacekeepers were killed | there, for example. | [deleted] | omginternets wrote: | In addition, C2 was not what it is today, so an important | design goal for military uniforms was to distinguish friend | from foe on the battlefield. | | In the same vein, modern militaries often attach IR strobes | to personnel and vehicles to identify them at night. This | will likely appear silly in a few years when night optics are | pervasive (if that hasn't happened already). | Spooky23 wrote: | Also life isn't a movie. That red dye would be worn away | pretty quickly. They probably looked more brown in the field. | the_af wrote: | What advantage would it provide to make it harder to | distinguish individual soldiers? Wouldn't their enemies just | volley fire into the mass of red coats, instead of picking | and choosing? | Majromax wrote: | > What advantage would it provide to make it harder to | distinguish individual soldiers? | | Distinguishing individual soldiers is an important step in | counting the size of a line. Accepting "red coats blend | together" as truth, that would make it more difficult for | an opposing general to determine which parts of a battle | line were stronger or weaker, thus making it more difficult | to preposition forces to exploit weak sections. | | Once the battle was joined the camouflage effect would not | have mattered as much, but before the deployment of radio | it was also very, very difficult to change battle plans "on | the fly." | the_af wrote: | When determining weaker sections visually, wouldn't you | go by "mass" of soldiers? I don't think anybody would | count individual soldiers. | | In any case, given the technology of the time, if you | were beyond engagement range, I don't think you would | have been able to pick out individual soldiers by sight | regardless of which uniforms they were wearing... | | My theory is that vibrant color uniforms were chosen | simply to make identification of different formations | easier. | chrisseaton wrote: | It helped to identify friend-vs-foe yes, but not | formation, as formations were distinguished by the lining | of their uniform, which wasn't very visible! | | Also red was just an easy colour to get hold of and to | dye with, and it hid blood. | | The red mass of undistinguished soldiers created an | imposing sight on the battlefield. It's not about wanting | to hit individuals (why would you?) it's about the shock | factor. | | This is only infantry as well - where shock action was | even more important - cavalry - and distinction didn't | apply - you had less uniform more elaborate uniforms. | Spooky23 wrote: | The British had long lines with not too many ranks to | maximize delivery of bullets to the enemy. | | Figuring out how many where there was harder than it may | seem. | esaym wrote: | I don't know, maybe ask a zebra. | the_af wrote: | It's funny because zebra stripes don't make them harder | to be seen by lions. There was an article about this on | HN, showing the low-res vision of lions cannot tell | stripes or no stripes at a distance. | | Apparently zebra stripes have more to do with reducing | _fly bites_ , among other things. | throwaway0a5e wrote: | Camouflage was absolutely not a goal of 18th century | uniforms. When you are wheeling around infantry units like | big blocks camouflage is more or less tactically irrelevant. | | Furthermore, if they were trying to blend in with each other | like one big homogeneous mass of infantry they wouldn't have | given everyone hats in a contrasting color. | chrisseaton wrote: | I said _dazzle_ camouflage, and it was. | | The goal of their uniforms wasn't to hide individuals | within the environment, but to make it hard to discern | individuals within the imposing mass of soldiers. | denton-scratch wrote: | That doesn't explain why early-modern generals adopted | costumes with extremely distinctive hats. Napoleon's hat, | for example, was meant to allow troops to discern him | instantly. | chrisseaton wrote: | A leader would want to stand out - this was before long | range marksmen would be able to hit them from a distance. | notatoad wrote: | part of the benefit of a distinctive hat is that you can | take it off for an instant disguise. | spicymaki wrote: | Just a little context here! I was just adding a little humor to | the thread. I did not actually think they were wearing | camouflage. | Rastonbury wrote: | Makes me think of active camflague like a cloaking device, | probably not practical for military, but give 360 camera, | processing and miniaturization technology advancement how hard | would it be to make a see through car for instance | cxcorp wrote: | There's a system named ADAPTIV [1] which is essentially a bunch | of tiles that can alter their temperature to make a tank look | like a civilian car on the infrared band. | | [1]: https://www.baesystems.com/en/feature/adativ-cloak-of- | invisi... | spywaregorilla wrote: | Spotting dudes in camo seems like a prime opportunity for neural | net ar | qbasic_forever wrote: | There's nothing useful to deploy it on though--the 'future | soldier' concept of the 90s never went anywhere | (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Soldier) and we don't | have a computer platform on every soldier. IMHO I'd stick to | using machine learning to detect stealth aircraft and missiles | to improve intercepting them. | spywaregorilla wrote: | I've heard the javelin missile launchers have been great in | ukraine because they can double as night / thermal vision. | This concept seems similar to me. Never been on a battlefield | but I guess it seems dubious that most modern soldiers don't | have some form of digital aid? | sillysaurusx wrote: | Yes and no. Special ops forces could definitely make use of | it. The hard part is ensuring the deployment equipment is | reliable 99.99% of the time, since bugs on the battlefield | get people killed. | bloqs wrote: | Random but does anyone know where to buy a official Crye | precision multicam texture for game dev? Their website gives the | impression they just sell fabrics to the US market | chrisseaton wrote: | Sounds expensive. | tiffanyh wrote: | I'm somewhat surprised the article didn't discuss "contrast" as | it relates to patterns and background. | some_random wrote: | This is a fascinating read that I recommend to anyone interested | in modern camouflage. | mNovak wrote: | I'm actually stunned just how effective that MARPAT pattern is | compared to the NATO blob camo, in the second image. | fho wrote: | Question (from somebody who only skimmed the article): how much | variance exists of that fabric? Is that pattern repeated after x | meters if fabric? | | If so: wouldn't knowing what to look for greatly increase the | ability to automatically extract the pattern from image data? | (Like how it is possible to extract signals from below the noise | floor in LoRa communication?) | denton-scratch wrote: | I was hoping to learn why the pixelated designs started | appearing. Author says they work; but what led anyone to think | that those designs might work? Why did they try them in the first | place? And actually, _why_ do they work? | | I find it bizarre that this is all done by private companies, | competing in public competitions, with royalties to be paid for | the chosen design. And I'm quite surprised that some designs were | found wanting because they don't work under IR (e.g. the soldier | shines against the background). That sounds like they're using | the wrong dyes; surely a decent design methodology would lead to | such problems being remedied by incremental improvement? | jcranmer wrote: | The answers to your first paragraph is in another part of the | series: | | > Now we can address the Micropattern - digital pixels. These | are required to add background noise and texture matching with | the background and this is designed to fool with the focal area | of the eye - when you are looking directly at or close to the | target to make it more difficult to recognize what you are | looking at. | [deleted] | ryanmercer wrote: | >Why did they try them in the first place? | | With no knowledge what so ever my gut reaction is to simply | point to nature. Leaves get eaten/bitten/broken/ripped, a | branch might be in front of another adding depth with similar | patterns, rocks and sand in a desert can vary sharply at | different focal depths, urban environments can have dozens of | materials in use along with random detritus and objects at | various focal depths. | | Pixilation was probably a logical step towards recreating these | varied environments. Look at a ghillie suit that has leaves | incorporated, they'll have a pixilated appearance - example: | https://static5.gunfire.com/eng_pl_Ghillie-Suit-camouflage-s... | denton-scratch wrote: | Well, that ghillie suit doesn't look pixelated to me - it | just looks like it has quite a few straight-sided polygons in | it. | | Actually, that's what's bugging me most about this camo made | from regular square blocks: it looks really easy for a | recogniser to spot. No AI <spit>, an old-fashioned neural | network would be enough to recognise edges, and then spot | squares on a grid. | | [Edit] Yeah, I get that your average stag deer doesn't have | access to thermal imaging and neural networks. But this is | military camo, not deerstalking camo. | somerandomqaguy wrote: | CADPAT works terrifyingly well in the temperate forests of | Canada during spring/summer. I had a chance to go try and to | spot people wearing CADPAT in the early 2000's and it was a | royal pain to try and see them compared to the olive drab or | even the US woodland patterns. | | Just a fun aside: when Canada invaded Afghanistan, there was a | lack of the arid variant of CADPAT. It left soldiers to land in | the brown and tan desert wearing vivid green camouflage | designed for summer in the Canadian rain forests. | | >I find it bizarre that this is all done by private companies, | competing in public competitions, with royalties to be paid for | the chosen design. And I'm quite surprised that some designs | were found wanting because they don't work under IR (e.g. the | soldier shines against the background). That sounds like | they're using the wrong dyes; surely a decent design | methodology would lead to such problems being remedied by | incremental improvement? | | It was fixed AFAIK. IIRC issued CADPAT clothing were controlled | items in 2000's because they had the the treatments designed to | work against near infrared. Civilian CADPAT lacked those | treatments so companies like Tru Spec[1] could sell it on the | open market. There were other teething issues I am aware of; | the dyes bleeding into splotches instead of the digital pattern | as called for, as well as fading issues after laundering. Fixed | of course but it took some iterations. | | [1] I just double checked, Tru Spec never sold it. There were | some smaller outfits in Canada that produced CADPAT available | on the civilian market for short time; Drop Zone Tactical out | of Edmonton for sure was one. Rumor mill is that it was | material made by Consoltex under military contract that failed | to meet the military's specifications and sold off to licensed | DND manufactures to recoup costs. | fartcannon wrote: | What was worse, CADPAT or UCP? I couldn't find it in the | article. Instinct is that CADPAT was worse, but UCP was just | that style without the contrast thus negating one of it's | features (disrupting the human shape with high contrast). | lwansbrough wrote: | CADPAT is the basis for MARPAT. It's the most effective | generic pattern that has been produced (according to the | article.) | fartcannon wrote: | Thanks. Is MARPAT what the Canadian soldiers showed up to | Afghanistan in? | | Edit: looks like the wore the forest green stuff to | Afghanistan. The only articles I can find suggests they | did it on purpose, to stand out for peace keeping | reasons, but that could easily be damage control. Anyone | know the real story? GP suggests they just didn't have an | arid design at the time (which I would believe). | jimmygrapes wrote: | I can't comment on Canadian forces, but I can, with some | reasonable level of confidence, say that some number of | U.S. forces arrived with old forest green BDU pattern | (despite the existence and previous use of the "chocolate | chip" pattern) simply because that's what we had. | mikechalmers wrote: | > Just a fun aside: when Canada invaded Afghanistan, there | was a lack of the arid variant of CADPAT. It left soldiers to | land in the brown and tan desert wearing vivid green | camouflage designed for summer in the Canadian rain forests. | | This is a (kinda funny) plotline in Generation Kill. | muro wrote: | Shining under different light (e.g. IR) is nothing new. I think | it was Soviet paint on tanks that was highly visible early in | WW2 through a filter. | retSava wrote: | An interesting macro-variant is the Berlin brigade tank camo | pattern, which is surprisingly cool! No idea where that comes | into uniform camo pattern history nor how efficient it is, but | who cares. It's cool beans. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Infantry_Brigade#/media... | _petronius wrote: | Maybe it is related to dazzle camoflauge used on ships? | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzle_camouflage | | There the goal is less to avoid detection and more to make it | hard to determine direction/orientation. | jabl wrote: | My guess would be that the thinking behind it was that in | urban environments you have more straight | vertical/horizontal lines (houses, roads etc.) and thus | wavy camouflage patterns would stand out more from the | background. | rtkwe wrote: | Dazzle camo wasn't so much a "hide me" camo as it was a | "hide data needed to shot me" camo. It was designed to make | it harder to estimate heading and speed so it was harder to | calculate accurate shots by submarines and naval guns which | needed data about the target ship's speed, distance and | heading to calculate an accurate shot. | kingofpandora wrote: | Honestly, the first thing that came to mind was the pattern | used on V-2 rockets: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-2_rocket | ... | cwillu wrote: | Wrong photo: this just shows a bunch of disembodied heads | floating down a street. | danielvf wrote: | It's not really so much about the pixels being square as the | fractal-ish nature of mordern pixel camos that result in a | "scale invariance" effect. There's details and contrast at the | level of the small pixels, and there's details and contrasts | are medium levels, and then again at large levels. Previous US | army camo mostly had detail at only one scale level. | | As jcranmer says, there's more details on the reasons it works | somewhere down in this page, | https://www.hyperstealth.com/US4CES-ALPHA/index.html | Gordonjcp wrote: | So basically, "if I make them fractal they look like patterns | in nature, and if I scale tiny pixel fractals on screen up to | the width of a bolt of cloth they still look like fractal | patterns in nature, and if I get it right the details end up | about the same scale as details in nature, mostly" kind of | thing? | Sharlin wrote: | Exactly. Very very few things in nature actually are made of | large blobs of a single color (unless you're very | shortsighted). Honestly, it baffles me why militaries didn't | realize this earlier. | hnarn wrote: | > it baffles me why militaries didn't realize this earlier | | Waffen-SS used dotted camouflage in the late 1930s | (Platanenmuster), so depending on what you mean by | "earlier" the idea of camouflage without "large blobs" | isn't that modern. | | The Erbsenmuster from 1944 is an even better example of | this type of camouflage. | Sharlin wrote: | Thanks, good info! | rtkwe wrote: | The ability to easily print and create those patterns has | likely improved over the years to where it's cheap enough | to be worth the mild improvements vs the cost of the | printing of the uniforms. | | Plus, like another commenter said camouflage is a last to | second to last line of defense. Most units aren't moving | stealthily in close proximity to their enemy and those that | do adopt better camouflage techniques like ghillie suits or | using terrain to hide while staying still (eg: waiting to | ambush another group). | Sharlin wrote: | As a Finn, my conception of warfare is probably biased | towards a specific type that happens in woodlands with | short sightlines and lots of natural concealment. Direct- | fire engagement distances tend to be short, infantry | tactics are informed by the desire to get as close as | possible without being seen, and by unit movement | (possibly under aerial surveillance) while giving away as | little information as possible. | | I do think that the Finnish M05 woodland camo [1] is one | of the best in the world =) | | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M05 | bityard wrote: | Source: former military member. | | In combat, camouflage is really the VERY last line of | defense possible, and a fairly weak one at that. If the | difference between staying alive and being dead is the | pattern of your clothing, a lot of things have already gone | seriously wrong and your chances of survival are not great. | | In the grand scheme of things, camo relatively high-hanging | fruit. Money and time have mostly been spent on building | superior weapons, armor, and of course training. Camo is a | very small optimization in comparison and when the Army and | Air Force decided to change up their BDU patterns, it was | viewed by me and my fellow service members as largely a | public image stunt. ("Look everyone, we're modern!") | | Edit: to be clear, I'm only referring to uniforms... | snipers and such use camouflage netting for example that is | tailored to their exact location and can be extremely | effective at "hiding in plain sight." | ncmncm wrote: | Snipers need good camo, but the people snipers snipe | don't? | samstave wrote: | I just had a really odd thought cross my head and want to | just document here before I forget it: | | The way rifles work with recoils driving the expulsion of | a shell after firing and using that force to load the | next round to chamber (the famous AK47 design) | | -- | | Would there be a method of attaching a compressed water | bottle with valve with a donut nozzle with vents out at | angles to the optimal suppression of the muzzle flash. | | The idea being that, like a paintball gun, the machine's | trigger pull, also has a tangential trig that pulls an | outburst a micro second from the rifle, in a ring mist of | water/(some more expensive, toxic military fire- | suppressant (ironic) to reduce the muzzle flash on | shot... | | May it reduce the muzzle flare? or is it too weak? Should | it launch behind muzzle, after muzzle? | | The bullet down the barrel triggers the valve when it | hits 50% of barrel length. Once that induction occurs, it | triggers the valve, and the flame suppressant cloud is | spit out micro seconds prior to bullet breach... | | --- | | I am convinced that we can use Davincis micro fluidics... | turbulence drawings. | | ---- | | So let talk about next gen firing | | The barrel release could be routed to drive the exhaust | through channels which drive micro-turbine motors that | slurp back through the external of barrel and infuse with | water. | | Working on this in Solid | mechanical_bear wrote: | I think TempleOS started in a similar fashion... | samstave wrote: | sandworm101 wrote: | In all honesty, there isnt much room to improve the | actions of modern assault rifles. There are dozens of | post-stoner improvements that have bern tried. Millions | have been spent on them. They have all been shelved as to | complex or cumbersome. The gas-operated rotating bolt is | so elegant, so reliable, that fundimental improvements | are hard to imagine. | | Adding water to the equation? Rust, mud, weight, boiling | ... you would need some radical improvements to justify | such added complexity. | akerl_ wrote: | You're basically describing "muzzle brakes and flash | suppressors, but with more components to refill/repair" | | Separately, using the force of the round (either via a | gas tube or via direct rearward motion) to propel the | action of the firearm isn't really an AK47 thing, it's | common to all semi automatic rifles and predates the AK47 | by quite a while. | abrokenpipe wrote: | A flash hider such as a "3 prong" achieves the same | affect with no moving parts, also suppressors can pretty | much eliminate all flash and offer hearing protection and | additional signature reduction by reducing the db levels | and changing the pitch of the noise. | samstave wrote: | I want to compare the modern versions of suppressions | with the old designs of one-way-fluidic valves. | | The reason: | | Davinciy was cabable of documenting the vortices of | variues pulses of fluidicsbut the vortices expecticed | creates the fluid dynamics | | Hopw the fuck in 400 years have these guys come NOT up | with better? | | I dont trust a single structural eng. | rtkwe wrote: | Yeah for a fraction of the cost in complexity, weight and | issues with consumables a suppressor does all of what | they were talking about and more. The US army is in | theory going to a new rifle and issuing suppressors to | every (frontline) infantry unit with the NGSW contract. | | (We'll see how widely the new system and everything | actually gets deployed but it was an important part of | the whole program at least) | Sharlin wrote: | Why not just build one in? I guess I'm accustomed to | assault rifles having flash suppressors because the one | that I've actually handled and lugged around and shot | with, the Valmet RK 62, does have a suppressor built in, | a distinctive feature [1]. | | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RK_62 | avereveard wrote: | Possibly length is a factor | rtkwe wrote: | I'm not seeing anything about a built in sound suppressor | just a flash suppressor which is a fairly common feature | on modern assault rifles and their civilian variants. You | don't generally build in a suppressor because they're | technically wear items as the hot gases will slowly erode | the baffles over time. That plus their extra weight and | cost meant most militaries only issued them to units that | were built for stealth missions in the past. | Sharlin wrote: | Ah, when you said "suppressor" I thought you meant "flash | suppressor" but rereading I realize you meant "sound | suppressor" like the GP. | Sharlin wrote: | I don't think muzzle flash is a big problem in today's | rifles. Any powder left burning by the time the bullet | exits the barrel is wasted energy, so things tend to get | optimized pretty thoroughly (this is the field of | internal and transitional ballistics). Carbine-length | firearms (if they're chambered for rifle rounds) do tend | to have bigger issues with muzzle flash. Flash | suppressors [1], either integrated or add-on, help and | have exactly zero complexity compared to a hypothetical | water mister. | | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_suppressor | jollybean wrote: | In the first phase of Ukrainian war soldiers were firing | a lot of line of sight, it does matter. And especially | the IR / night vision opportunities are real. | | It's very 'low hanging fruit'. It's ridiculous that that | a 20 Trillion dollar Army has 'camouflage' that is very | clearly crap next to better camo. | | These tests could have literally been run in a day, even | back in the 1950s. | | Some soldiers, some screens, a few cameras, some changes | in lighting and it would have been evident. | | Moreover, it's reasonable to be suspect in whether an | organization that can't handle such a basic R&D task is | going to be able to handle the more complicated things. | jcranmer wrote: | There are, it seems, a few aspects that went into the | seemingly-obviously-poor decision to go with UCP. | | The first is that the criteria that appears to have been | most important was performance in near-IR (i.e., night | vision). Humans can't see in NIR themselves, so it's not | readily apparent that the UCP is actually _pretty good_ | camo in NIR conditions. It 's pretty atrocious in visible | light, though. | | The second is the requirement that the camo pattern be | good in all environments. And "standard" woodland | patterns to be utterly horrendous in sandy desert | environments, while desert patterns do similarly bad in | woodland environments. And you can see how something like | the UCP might score well--while it's not a good camo | pattern for any visible pattern, it sticks out less than | a standard woodland in desert or vice versa. Of course, | there were other patterns at that time that performed | strictly better than UCP in all environments (save NIR). | | The main kicker, though, is that the winning pattern | seems to have been constructed out of elements of all the | participating patterns... with no follow-up work done to | make sure that the resulting combination _actually | worked_. As you say, this is where some tests would have | saved an awful lot of embarrassment, and my suspicion is | these tests were not run for either time or money | reasons. (And yes, this is a false economy here, but it | 's one that I can really believe bureaucracies pursuing). | | There is historical precedence for this kind of short- | sightedness however: the Mark 14 Torpedo, the main | torpedo the US used in WW2. Which didn't work, and the | Navy's Board of Ordnance took a couple years (and | ultimately an unsanctioned live-fire test demonstrating | that it didn't work) to be convinced that they actually | didn't work rather than the submariners being packs of | incompetent morons. | lupire wrote: | Axien wrote: | With thermal imaging, do snipers still rely on | camouflage? | Sharlin wrote: | Good camo is broadband. Camo nets, ghillie suits help | spread and dissipate a thermal signature, making it more | difficult to pick up from the noise. And unless you have | a JWST and know exactly where to point it (and obviously | the whole idea of snipers is that you _don 't_ know), | good luck trying to find a human head-sized target that's | a klick away from you. | tablespoon wrote: | > With thermal imaging, do snipers still rely on | camouflage? | | Does everyone on a battlefield have thermal imaging? Even | if there's a technology X that can defeat Y, if X can't | be deployed widely, then X can still be useful. | sandworm101 wrote: | >>In combat, camouflage is really the VERY last line of | defense possible | | Current military member here. It is also the first line | of defense against fratricide. It means your friends can | tell you from the not-friends. A distinct pattern, unique | to your organization, is what stops aircraft from | dropping on you. So as current patterns trickle out into | private hands, eventually every military organization | needs to update its look. | tomcam wrote: | Sadly I'm a large blob of a single color | denton-scratch wrote: | Well, I'm now much better informed! | | It does sound as if there's not much methodology in this | business, beyond empirical testing. Like, is there a science | of 'camouflagology'? [oops, when inventing words, never mix | latin and greek] | | It just seems like it's basically lore, gathered from talking | to fgillies and field experience, augmented by tests (which | may be omitted, or the results ignored). Anyway, it might be | fun to take a minor in camouflagology. | mindcrime wrote: | _Like, is there a science of 'camouflagology'? [oops, when | inventing words, never mix latin and greek]_ | | I don't know if there's a more specific term or not, but | camouflage is studied (along with other things) under the | general subject of "Crypsis". | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypsis | | Note that this seems to be more particularly about natural | forms of camouflage / etc., as opposed to military | camouflage used by humans. But the two areas are clearly | related. | | Regardless of what you call it, it does appear that there | is some science that goes into at least some aspects of | this. See, for example: | | https://phys.org/news/2021-01-camouflage-arbitrary- | environme... | s1artibartfast wrote: | That still doesnt answer the question of why pixels. | | You can scale invariance and fractals with squares, | triangles, or whatever shape you want. | shawabawa3 wrote: | > "Pixels have minimal impact on the ambient vision but a | large impact on the focal cone causing further delay as the | brain attempts to process the increased detail, when | pixelation in camouflage is done correctly (color and | scale) the brain will confuse the background noise with the | pixels, removing the anomaly as a threat or delaying the | identification of a threat. (6)" | s1artibartfast wrote: | I read that as having more to do with the length scale of | features represented by the pixels than the shape of the | pixel itself. | | From the biological perspective, the same phenomenon | should happen with dots or triangular shapes | blt wrote: | Maybe it's easier to implement the pattern generation | algorithm for pixel output? | adolph wrote: | _In development since 1983, the camo saw no use in the field | until it was deployed during the first Gulf War (1990-1991)._ | | _The purpose was to disrupt primitive Soviet-era night vision. | The grid pattern was intended to interfere with the generated | grid used by these devices for targeting._ | | _Even after plenty of research I could find no cases of this | pattern ever disrupting anything. By the early 90's, night | vision technology had progressed greatly and this green grid | was completely ineffective. There is even some anecdotal | evidence it made detection easier!_ | | https://guide.sportsmansguide.com/gulf-war-desert-night-camo... | nonrandomstring wrote: | Pattern is only one small factor. It's usually taken to be | "Surface" in the list: | | - Shape | | - Shine | | - Shadow | | - Speed | | - Surface | | - Silhouette | | - Spacing | | - Smell | | - Sound | guessbest wrote: | I personally find the who camouflage switch to every branch of | service, including the navy to be bizarre. Who thought it was | good idea for navy seamen to be camouflaged in the water? With | that line of reasoning why didn't the airforce get their own | camouflage to look like a flight line? hah | | > After six years in the fleet and some controversy, the blue- | and-gray cammies could be headed for Davy Jones' seabag. | | https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2016/04/23/the-navy... | Gordonjcp wrote: | > why didn't the airforce get their own camouflage to look | like a flight line^W^W bar stool? | | ftfy | NovemberWhiskey wrote: | The Air Force did get their own camo - the ABU (Airman Battle | Uniform) digital tiger-stripe; based on a Vietnam-era tiger- | stripe uniform but with a color palette similar to the UCP; | only with more blue. | | In fact, it's not just their own camouflage pattern, the ABU | actually had a distinctive blouse and pants that are | different from the BDU that came before, or the ACU that the | Army had adopted. Then they took the sage-green fleece from | ECWCS Gen III (what the Army was wearing), and added the | APECS Goretex parka that the Marine Corps was wearing, only | in the ABU tiger-stripe rather than MARPAT. | | Most of the actual battlefield airmen (i.e. the people who | might reasonably expect to find themselves in combat | conditions where camouflage could help like combat | controller, TACP, PJ) didn't wear it anyway. | | As pointed out elsewhere, this is very largely about esprit- | de-corps in the context of a military organization, even if | your job is actually avionics maintenance or personnel. | | It does seem like a huge waste for all the services to have | their own completely distinctive utility uniforms though - | the pendulum is swinging back the other way now with the | Army, Air Force and Space Force all back in the redesigned | ACU/OCP with stitching color (black/spice-brown/blue) as the | service-distinctive element. | volumetric wrote: | I don't get why the branches in which very few folks are | likely to need camo (basically anyone other than the army, | then, and some sub-divisions of other branches like the | marine corp) don't go with old-school olive drab or navy or | something. Those single-color uniforms with a slightly | dressy cut looked damn slick. I'd think that'd be better | for recruiting or improving morale or whatever than the | camo uniforms (which, often as not, are the butts of jokes | and not considered at all appealing) | | Then again, maybe those old styles only looked good when | they were made with nice materials, like wool and heavy | waxed canvas, and would look bad with cheap modern | synthetics. | imwillofficial wrote: | As a sailor, I always really liked the Coast Guards | working uniform. | | Simple, effective, dare I say elegant. | NovemberWhiskey wrote: | >camo uniforms ... _which, often as not, are the butts of | jokes and not considered at all appealing_ | | I think you'll find they're pretty appealing to a lot of | the people who want to be in the military. | jcranmer wrote: | One advantage of camo uniforms for working utility | uniforms is they tend to be effective in hiding things | like grime and mud, which consequently means you need to | launder them less frequently to keep up the same | appearance. If you've got a solid single-color uniform, | chances are that these will stick out like a sore thumb. | That was one thing that sailors liked about the old US | Navy NWU (the one that camouflaged you very effectively | if you fell in the water)--really good at hiding paint | drips. | | With regards to looking good, I don't think it's | necessarily that the look good with appropriate | materials, but more that they look good only when they | are properly starched and the like to maintain crisp | lines. | jessaustin wrote: | _...camouflaged you very effectively if you fell in the | water..._ | | This seems good in some situations and very bad in | others? | Taniwha wrote: | I think that seeing 'Space Force' going around in camo is | even more asinine .... | imwillofficial wrote: | Space force is still in many ways still a child of the Air | Force, and follow Air Force uniform refs. | jcranmer wrote: | Space Force does have its own dress uniforms. | imwillofficial wrote: | Former US sailor here. The "camouflage" blue is no longer in | use, but when it was, we jokingly referred to each other as | "ocean warriors". The reasoning for why this pattern was | chosen for working use, was that it hid oil stains and fresh | paint really well, letting you wear the uniform longer. | | The reality? Some politician or admiral wanted to leave their | mark. | nordsieck wrote: | > I personally find the who camouflage switch to every branch | of service, including the navy to be bizarre. Who thought it | was good idea for navy seamen to be camouflaged in the water? | With that line of reasoning why didn't the airforce get their | own camouflage to look like a flight line? hah | | Not everything the military does is about effectiveness. | Sometimes senior NCOs want the enlisted to "look military", | not just be effective. | | Here's another example: why is the military PT (physical | training) test varied by sex and age? If it was only about | combat effectiveness, presumably there'd be 1 set of values | that determine if someone had sufficient fitness relative to | the rigors of combat (or whatever their job requires). | rtkwe wrote: | In addition to things other people have said there's a lot | of roles that aren't combat so increasing the number of | women who can qualify can fill out those roles (logistics, | the reams of sundry clerical work, maintenance, etc) where | physical strength isn't as critical helps fill out a | volunteer army. | jcranmer wrote: | There's a concept called 'tooth-to-tail ratio' which is | the ratio of combat personnel to non-combat personnel in | an army. The modern US army has a tooth-to-tail ratio of | about ~1:8. This isn't necessarily a great correlation to | physically demanding versus not-physically-demanding | jobs, it does illustrate how tiny the front-line portion | of the military actually is. | rcurry wrote: | The new Navy camouflage is designed to keep your uniform | looking clean when you are working around paints and oils | and so on. It's purely for workplace aesthetics and not | intended to hide you from anyone. | Retric wrote: | It was a diagnostic test. Like how a loss of fuel | efficiency is a sign that something is wrong with an | engine, if someone can't meet the standard something has | gone wrong. Which is why it was treated as a pure pass | fail. | imwillofficial wrote: | It's a standards test, where failing can potentially get | you kicked out. While also used as a diagnostic to let | you know if you're slipping, its primary and only stated | purpose is to uphold an objective standard. | | This makes variations by age and sex concessions to that | goal, rather than design elements. | Retric wrote: | The standards test is different. Occupational Physical | Assessment Test results are Unqualified, Moderate, | Significant, or Heavy which is then used to decide if | someone meets an appropriate standard. | | Meanwhile the Army would sometimes retain people | incapable of passing the old age and gender standard. As | an extreme example people with missing limbs could be | retained. | ARandomerDude wrote: | Much of this is service pride, politics, and recruiting. If | the other services switch and you don't, your service looks | dated, boring, and irrelevant. | | Imagine the JavaScript cool kid mindset but with guns. | russellbeattie wrote: | > _Imagine the JavaScript cool kid mindset but with guns._ | | A more terrifying sentence than this has rarely been | written. | imwillofficial wrote: | The table stakes are uniforms here, lets not blow it out | of proportion. | hinkley wrote: | During the I-for-get-which war, the army hired color-blind | spotters because the enemy camo turned out to be fooling fully | sighted people but was less effective with red-green color | blindness. I don't recall if it was texture or contrast issues | but they stood out against the trees and shrubbery enough to | locate. | | So we not only have to worry about invisible spectra, but some | filters on visible light may reveal the target as well. | evan_ wrote: | This was used in Vietnam. My neighbor growing up had this | condition and was a spotter in Vietnam. He'd be flown over | areas of jungle in a helicopter and he would be able to | easily spot camouflaged structures. He would then photograph | them and mark up what he saw. He parlayed this experience | into a successful career in photojournalism after he got out | of the military. | rcurry wrote: | That's kind of like hunters who buy expensive camo and then | their wife washes it with laundry detergent that contains | brightening agents. To human eyes it still looks like camo, | but to the deer you end up looking like Barney the Dinosaur. | bluGill wrote: | Very real issue. My uncle used to be a big hunter (he died a | couple years ago), and could never see other hunters wearing | the required blaze orange, but when they were wearing | camouflage he had no problem seeing them in the woods. | | I have lots of other stories about the wierd things color | blind people see and don't see. (My sisters are color blind, | none of my family sees colors exactly the same, makes for | some weird situations) | ncmncm wrote: | Funny, considering most game animals are color-blind. | outworlder wrote: | If that works, wouldn't wearing glasses to filter out some | wavelengths work just as well? | ncmncm wrote: | Removing light reduces vision. Color-blind people pick up | all the photons, they just don't distinguish them. | kodah wrote: | MARPAT is a very well documented case: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARPAT In its case, it was chosen | because the blocks actually blend very well into environments | when viewed from a distance. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-08-01 23:00 UTC)