[HN Gopher] I used DALL*E 2 to generate a logo
___________________________________________________________________
I used DALL*E 2 to generate a logo
Author : cube2222
Score : 539 points
Date : 2022-08-02 16:06 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (jacobmartins.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (jacobmartins.com)
| bambax wrote:
| > _unfortunately can't do stuff like "give me the same entity as
| on the picture, but doing xyz"_
|
| That's my main gripe with DALL*E as well. This missing feature
| makes it impossible to use for stories where the _same_ character
| goes through an adventure and is present in different settings,
| doing different things.
|
| Although I don't know much about how DALL*E works, I have the
| feeling it shouldn't be too hard to add this possibility. That
| would make it so much better / more useful.
| alanh wrote:
| > _Although I don 't know much about how DALL*E works, I have
| the feeling it shouldn't be too hard to add this_
|
| No offense, but this gives me flashbacks to bad clients and
| non-technical managers :D
| bambax wrote:
| Yeah I know what you mean ;-) No offense taken!
| kvetching wrote:
| I would be very worried if I were going to want a job as a
| graphic designer.
|
| May be better idea to learn how to prompt the future AIs.
|
| Before we know it, we will have an AI making an entire movie
| (about 200-400k frames)
| alanh wrote:
| absolutely fascinating. great write-up!
| dayvid wrote:
| Looks good for ideation. Could potentially be more useful for an
| agency or creative professional building logos. They can make
| vector art off of promising mock-ups. Also most of the generated
| images need to be simplified for sake of a logo, but a
| professional can do this better.
| rossmohax wrote:
| ArtLebedev design studio was first (citation needed) to sell ML
| logo creation as a service: https://ironov.artlebedev.com/
| ShamelessC wrote:
| And it seems LAION was the "first" to offer it up for free.
|
| https://replicate.com/laion-ai/erlich
| rossmohax wrote:
| It is not even close to what Ironov does. More like a tech
| demo. Ironov outputs a complete brand book and it's interface
| is set up for exploration and logo refinement.
| ShamelessC wrote:
| Fair enough, sounds expensive.
| marcodiego wrote:
| If you needed to play so much with words, then it will eventually
| become a specialized task killing any benefit of having the AI
| doing the work for you since we eventually we will need to resort
| to specialists to use the AI to get the result we expect.
|
| On the bright side the result may be better, it may be easier to
| become and "AI usage specialist" than specializing in many
| different areas, the result may include many intermediate results
| that a specialist would find too much work to do and, with a bit
| a patience (like in the presented case), the task can still be
| done without the need of an "AI usage specialist".
|
| Currently, I think the problem is an UI one. There should be an
| option to allow the user to do something like: "from the last
| drawing, just add this..." or "in the last drawing, change the
| color/size/style of this and that...". This would be probably
| enough to achieve what the author wanted in a much smaller number
| of iterations.
|
| There is also on more thing: the costumer doesn't know exactly
| what he/she wants from the beginning. So, it is normal to have a
| few iterations until something pleasing is achieved.
| kriro wrote:
| The process can be optimized with more AI :D
|
| Create a logo generator site, allow users to pick something
| very limited like industry/field from a dropdown or something,
| generate say 9 logos with AI generated text discriptions that
| fit this selection and remember which one the user picked and
| use that data to build a network that generates good text
| descriptions to feed into DALL-E 2 based on a singe item
| selected by the user.
| alephxyz wrote:
| I actually tried doing something similar with dall-e mini for one
| of my projects but the results were bad. It was especially
| struggling to draw the octopus' limbs. It's impressive to see how
| much better dalle 2 is at the same task, even if the results
| still aren't good enough for professional use.
| ycombinete wrote:
| Entering these same search strings into Craiyon it's remarkable
| how much better Dall-E is.
| kache_ wrote:
| image generators are cool, but there's no shortage of them
| (midjourney & running your own on collab) and dalle2 has
| nonsensical bans (why does "pepe" go against the content policy?)
|
| Open-ai has nonsensical censorship. Dalle might be popular right
| now, but open-ai won't survive if they keep up their ridiculous
| attempts at trying to control culture. I've already got something
| running on collab, new models are coming out, and midjourney just
| got a v3 update that blows dalle2 out of the water.
| egypturnash wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepe_the_Frog may explain the
| ban.
| eklein217 wrote:
| walls wrote:
| Midjourney is censoring images as well...
| jordanmorgan10 wrote:
| I had no idea that could you do the variations or the brush
| stuff. Maybe I'm just glossing right over it? But that seems to
| give the tool more utility. I just try a phrase and I either like
| it or I don't.
|
| The fact that you can integrate on it seems to make it much more
| useful.
| cube2222 wrote:
| Yes! A really cool way to work with it is to generate a bunch
| of images, arrange them on a transparent canvas (i.e. in
| Affinity Designer), and then ask Dalle to fill in the gaps.
|
| For example see here[0], where I've combined a picture of a
| flying whale, a tardigrade in space, and a bunch of flying
| turtles.
|
| [0]: https://labs.openai.com/s/quqITCrFI7h0G1HKyfUrmJU0
| jordanmorgan10 wrote:
| That is neat. So are commas an official way to blend
| different schools of thought together for the image? Is there
| any documented way it's supposed to work? Like [main
| subject], [art style], etc? Or is it something you picked up
| from trial and error?
| cube2222 wrote:
| Here[0] is a very good presentation about it.
|
| But overall, you have to think about the context Dalle has
| seen similar images in the training set. If it's seen them
| on an art sharing site, then it's probably good to mention
| such sites and tags it could hypothetically have there. Or
| if it's more like a photo in an article, think about what
| could be written about it in the article.
|
| That's my intuition about it at least.
|
| [0]: http://dallery.gallery/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/The-
| DALL%C...
| mitchdoogle wrote:
| You definitely glossed over it - the Dall-E 2 homepage has the
| three main features of the program with examples (Image
| Generation, Edits to Existing Images, and Variations of the
| image)
|
| https://openai.com/dall-e-2/
| gzer0 wrote:
| 1. "ghidra dragon, logo, digital art, drawing, in a dark circle
| as the background, logo, digital art, drawing, in a dark circle
| as the background"
|
| [1] https://labs.openai.com/s/x2UP0MEmj2qNnKWTbko8rrso
|
| 2. "cute baby dragon, logo, digital art, in a dark circle as the
| background"
|
| [2] https://labs.openai.com/s/JmOXAqjpR2ctmraDxEkB7twF
|
| Thanks for this post, it helped me tailor my own search queries.
| Because of your post, I was able to discover a whole new realm to
| DALLE-2. For some reason, repeating the same query parameter at
| the end yields some rather interesting results.
| bambax wrote:
| The first one is really amazing!
|
| Something strange about DALL*E is that if you just type
| gibberish by pounding randomly on your keyboard, it will still
| "work", i.e., produce an image.
| amelius wrote:
| Both look very generic, like I've seen them before. I
| wouldn't be surprised if you could find nearly identical
| images somewhere on the net.
| spaceman_2020 wrote:
| From the examples I've seen, Dall-E is much better than the
| average designer or artist, but can't really hold a candle
| to a talented human artist.
| GravitasFailure wrote:
| The first one looks like the Bacardi logo with a dragon
| instead of a bat and the second one looks like a
| Charmander. I think the second one is interesting because
| most art I see with baby dragons look more dragon-like and
| less salamander.
| cdev_gl wrote:
| I'd wonder if that's an artifact of the source data, drilling
| down in the possibility space to be more like some subset that
| duplicates the image label- for example pulling tweets with
| body text and alt text.
|
| Alternatively I guess it could just pull harder towards the
| prompt, idk.
| shannifin wrote:
| That's awesome :)
| appletrotter wrote:
| The first one looks like every deviant art user's profile
| picture
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| I was going to comment that both look very much like what
| you'd find in an advanced beginner's deviantart
| portfolio...like, late high school-ish age, I woudl guess.
|
| The second is more 'advanced' to me than the first,
| possessing an actual style, but neither is anything I would
| consider high quality enough to serve as a
| project/company/site/personal logo.
| softwaredoug wrote:
| For logos, even Craiyon (formerly Dall-E Mini) does a pretty
| decent job
| qualudeheart wrote:
| This is much better than I thought. Nice!
| Imnimo wrote:
| I think a lot of DALL-E 2 outputs fall into the category of
| "extremely impressive that a neural network made this" and also
| "not quite up to the standards of a human expert". Like if you
| show me an output and told me a machine made it, I'm absolutely
| fascinated, but if you showed me the same image and told me a
| human drew it, I'd just scroll past without a second thought.
| Even so, there are some applications for which being able to
| generate a pretty okay image for a few cents is a great deal - I
| use it for things like D&D character portraits.
|
| Of course, DALL-E 2 is not the end of of text-to-image research -
| it'll be interesting to see where we are a year from now.
| spaceman_2020 wrote:
| I just got access today. Can't wait to try it out.
|
| We produce a lot of content and the biggest hurdle in graphic
| creation is the back and forth with the designer, plus the lag
| between writing, designing, and publishing. This would make it
| easy enough that the writer can include a prompt for the
| illustration right in the text itself.
|
| More than the costs, I'm excited about the efficiency gains and
| smoother workflows.
| cube2222 wrote:
| Definitely check out this[0] presentation for tips around
| working with Dalle.
|
| [0]: http://dallery.gallery/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/The-
| DALL%C...
| spaceman_2020 wrote:
| That's a great resource - thanks for sharing
| rw2 wrote:
| I used Dall-E a lot and get into a lot of the same issues, I
| think Dall-e needs parameters that are fixed for things like:
|
| -percentage of the entire drawing that the image you want to draw
| should take; a lot of times I think the object I want is too
| "zoomed in" or large; a circle background is a good way to limit
| it but I think it should be more obvious
|
| -No way to fix the color of the background so that it can fade in
| easily to other images or design
|
| -Reuse drawing styles to generate further image to explore
| further and maintain consistency
|
| A syntax could be: Octopus juggling blue database cylinders,
| digital art, cute, image-size:40%, background-color:#304324. With
| image-size, and background-color being keywords in the definition
| avian wrote:
| > the fact that adding "artstation" to the end of your phrase
| automatically makes the output much better...
|
| It's like saying "steal from artists, but only the good ones"
| qwertox wrote:
| This is remarkable. A lot of small businesses would settle with
| such an outcome, if it means to invest a couple of hours of
| talking into a microphone and seeing the result, with a very
| intuitive way to modify it.
|
| This will make it pretty hard for freelance/solo entrepreneur
| designers.
|
| In retrospect it makes sense, since the visual domain has been
| the one with the most focus in AI.
|
| If this gets applied to the other top domain, speech recognition
| and generation, then I could foresee this doing the same to the
| call centers, eventually also phone reception in a very small and
| relaxed business.
| amingilani wrote:
| Honestly, I feel this tool will allow bad designers such as
| myself to create bad designs.
| dmix wrote:
| The middle iterations were much nicer than the final one IMO.
|
| Otherwise I love this article. We spent an hour at work going
| back and forth with different generated logos.
| cube2222 wrote:
| Glad it brought you some fun!
|
| Could you please link to the specific ones you liked most? That
| would be very valuable to me.
| dmix wrote:
| I personally preferred a simpler one like:
|
| https://jacobmartins.com/images/dalle2/DALL%C2%B7E%202022-08.
| ..
|
| https://jacobmartins.com/images/dalle2/DALL%C2%B7E%202022-08.
| ..
|
| The selected one seemed a little too detailed and in need of
| editing.
| naet wrote:
| My god it is so frustrating that I can't seem to get open ai
| access any time I have an idea for a project using dall e, gpt,
| for whatever reason, they won't approve my account.
|
| I have to sit here and watch everyone else play with the fun
| "open" ai tools... company needs a name change if they're going
| to keep this up.
| Karawebnetwork wrote:
| My significant other who had entered the queue several months
| ago as nothing more than "developer" got in last week. Don't
| give up! There's always Craiyon to scratch the itch in the
| meanwhile. You can start to play around with ways to write
| prompts, etc.
| cube2222 wrote:
| Afaik they are opening it up to a much wider audience in the
| recent weeks. I also got it just 2 days ago, and applied the
| same way as your SO, only providing "developer" and nothing
| else.
| kuboble wrote:
| That makes me think of they actually target developers
| somehow. I also got in couple days ago providing just email
| and being soft developer.
|
| I know at least one artist and one relatively popular
| youtuber (with over million subs) who applied to a waiting
| list much earlier than me and are still waiting.
| monkpit wrote:
| They just scaled up by giving access to an additional 1mil
| users. Be patient... it's not like it's free or trivial to run
| something like this.
| xwdv wrote:
| Indeed, it is infuriating and I don't know what the hold up is.
| 015UUZn8aEvW wrote:
| You could try using Midjourney:
| https://discord.com/invite/midjourney
| dividuum wrote:
| Never heard of that. So I looked it up and it seems a service
| completely based on discord? Both for the community and
| support (I presume) as well as accessing the service itself?
| There doesn't even seem to be any HTTP API. Weird :)
| abledon wrote:
| 'X' emoji reaction to the bot to delete your submission
| tauntz wrote:
| Yeah, it's a neat idea but it's extremely frustrating to
| use. A really really basic web frontend would make it so
| much more usable.
|
| On the upside (for MidJourney), you're seeing a HUGE stream
| (they are hitting the 1 mil Discord members ceiling) of
| generated pictures and that kinda grows your appetite and
| you want to also try more and more prompts..
| Eric_WVGG wrote:
| so, I'm not trying to be a pedant here... This is a very cool
| exercise in using DALL-E 2 to generate an icon.
|
| It would be extremely cool to see the same process spent on
| generating a logo.
| sAbakumoff wrote:
| I can't get anything good from DALLE-2. It seems so fcking
| stupid. Whatever I try, it gives me total BS, sometimes it just
| refuses to generate anything complaining about ToS violation.
| unixbane wrote:
| This automates 50% of a modern tech company, now you just need to
| automate the code generation, which seems already good enough to
| be on par with modern tech companies. Seems like a manage type
| can run his entire tech company himself now.
| wdr1 wrote:
| I'm not sure I'd use this for a logo.
|
| IANAL but my understanding is the ability to copyright the output
| from something like DALL-E 2 is questionable at best, due the
| lack of human authorship.
|
| (See "Monkey selfie copyright dispute" on Wikipedia for more
| info.)
| Buttons840 wrote:
| What if DALL-E or its successor spits out a few hundred
| trillion illustrations? None are copyrightable?
|
| I think someone taking the time to touch this up would make it
| copyrightable and trademarkable, and I'm okay with that.
|
| AI generated patents though? Only if we allow AI generated
| prior art.
| aliyeysides wrote:
| My friend asked me to create a logo using Dall-E for a pizza
| business called "Jared's pizza." I tried several different
| prompts but it kept outputting logos with the word "Jizza." It
| doesn't do too well with text from my experience, but it could
| have been the prompt.
|
| https://labs.openai.com/s/z1PVd5v6td9PsiY20Y5GdxDf |
| https://labs.openai.com/s/yxX49BjX07BztYgMjm49iXKc
| kfarr wrote:
| This made me laugh out loud, the first image at first glance
| looked like "Jizz" with a picture of a pizza.
| quasarj wrote:
| Hahahah both of them are excellent! Which did he pick? :P
| rubatuga wrote:
| Jizza sounds really tasty, maybe dall e is onto something.
| sva_ wrote:
| Jizz-a does not sound tasty to me, but your preferences might
| vary.
| aliyeysides wrote:
| "Jizza pizza, you'll love our crust"
| mithr wrote:
| DALL-E trying to spell is one of my favorite things. At one
| point I tried to generate an illustration of Steve Jobs, just
| to see what it comes up with for a popular figure, and I got a
| reasonable facsimile of his face along with the text
| "JiveStoves".
| parksy wrote:
| From a design point of view, with all the back and forth and the
| need to curate and guide the algorithm, I think we're a way off
| getting perfect results from prompts alone at this stage.
|
| I can see an immediate use-case for an AI layer in apps like
| photoshop, figma, sketchapp, gimp, unreal engine, etc that works
| in the background to periodically fill-in based on the current
| canvas.
|
| You could prompt for inspiration, then start cutting, erasing,
| moving things around, blending manually, hand-drawing some
| elements, then re-rolling the AI, rinse-repeat.
|
| I'm sure someone's working on it already but it seems there's a
| lot of scope for integration into current workflows.
| mkotowski wrote:
| Lately, there seems to be an avalanche of tools like DALL-E, was
| there some breakthrough that helped make these thinks more viable
| to run publicly?
|
| And concerning creating a logo with such tools: Is there any
| consensus on an eventual copyright of such works?
| make3 wrote:
| dall e 2 says you can use their images for commercial uses.
|
| that's not all there is to this though obviously
| LegitShady wrote:
| You can use it according to their license, but is it
| copyrightable is the question, and precedent so far seems to
| say no since a human didnt author it.
| make3 wrote:
| to answer your other question, diffusion generative models
| recently became big. you can read up on them if you want.
| jimmyl02 wrote:
| From a technical perspective, there has been a much larger
| adoption of diffusion models which make these types of
| generative art much more viable. There has also been
| breakthroughs in connecting images and text with models like
| CLIP. DALLE-2, Imagen, and a lot of other generative work are
| using these ideas to get even better results.
| scifibestfi wrote:
| And are the images it's trained on copyrighted? What are their
| source images from which these are derived?
| flaviut wrote:
| > Is there any consensus on an eventual copyright of such
| works?
|
| https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/us-copyright-offic...
| naillo wrote:
| This is kind of a weird take to me given that photoshop
| exists. (Tons of proto-computer vision algorithms in there,
| like basic convolutional filters.) I suspect you'd still get
| copyright if you modify it a bit somehow.
| zucked wrote:
| So, if a nascent company chooses to go down this same path of
| generating (or maybe _seeding_) their logo design with AI,
| have they essentially given up any ability to protect that
| logo going forward?
| singlow wrote:
| Logo's are generally protected by trademark rather than
| copyright. I don't think anything prevents you from using a
| generated logo with trademark. For example you could have a
| trademark on an orange square, even though you could never
| copyright it. In the same way a trademark could protect
| your product name even if it is a single English common
| noun, as long as it is distinctive in use within your
| trademark scope.
| 6gvONxR4sf7o wrote:
| Big pretrained models are a huge contributing factor. Being
| able to take a model that already mostly knows language and a
| model that already mostly knows images and hook them up means
| you don't need to do the entire end to end learning together.
| monkeynotes wrote:
| When AI reaches the point where we can talk to a system like
| DALL.E in real time and work with it to solve a problem, it's
| game over.
|
| Art will become a commodity. Human art and ai art will be
| indistinguishable, "artists" will become as common as
| "photographers" since the inception of digital photography and
| social media.
|
| Movie and TV scripts will be iterative with a creative director
| and AI working together.
|
| Animation will become a lot easier, less people needed, fewer
| creatives.
|
| Software will become easier and easier as developers will simply
| guide AI. This is already beginning to happen, but imagine paired
| programming with natural language interacting with an AI.
|
| Architecture, civic planning, engineering, medical, law, policy,
| physics, it's all gonna change, and rapidly. DALL.E 2 shows how a
| leap in sophistication can revolutionize an industry overnight.
| Microsoft has exclusively licensed DALL.E 2, I can only imagine
| the myriad of creative tools it will serve the creative industry
| with.
|
| The working in real-time will be the biggest leap. Asking DALL.E
| for an image and refining it as you talk is going to be nuts.
| mkaic wrote:
| Wholeheartedly agree. What's more, it seems to me like there's
| a large segment of the art industry that's very much in denial
| right now about this transition. You see stuff like "the human
| touch can't be replicated" or "but the algorithm will never
| [thing xyz] like a human", and then when it _does_ do thing xyz
| like a human, the goalposts just get moved again. A lot of my
| wonderful art friends are in this kind of denial right now, and
| it makes sense, to be honest -- losing your job to a machine
| sucks and is scary!
| trention wrote:
| >will become as common as "photographers"
|
| There were still ~60% as many employed photographers in 2021
| than in 2000 with higher real wages (data from BLS -
| https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm).
|
| For camera operators, the employment is flat, again with rising
| real wages.
|
| >imagine paired programming with natural language interacting
| with an AI
|
| Mostly it will get in the way. AI "programmers" are only good
| if they are able to generate correct code from spec/pseudocode
| and in first 1-3 number of tries (otherwise it will be faster
| to write it yourself).
| yieldcrv wrote:
| > To be completely honest, I would prefer something slightly
| simpler with less complex shapes, but I failed to persuade Dall-e
| into generating that for me. Moreover, I really am content with
| this logo.
|
| well, that's pragmatic! I think they should go back into their
| image editor and simplify it themselves though
| jfengel wrote:
| That was quite remarkable. Thanks for doing that.
|
| I've always been fascinated by how artists abstract the core
| notion of an image. It's stunning to see a computer do that.
| cube2222 wrote:
| Glad you liked it! It was definitely lots of fun (both the
| original process, as well as describing it).
|
| And indeed, seeing what Dalle will draw when telling it to
| visualize stuff like "data streams" was very interesting.
| jfengel wrote:
| It reminds be a bit of working as a director in a theater.
| You tell the actors what you want, and it's never just a
| "line reading". That's sort of the equivalent of just drawing
| it yourself, because you can't -- not just that you lack the
| expertise, but that you need them to do their thing with
| their body, and it has to be done their way or it looks fake.
|
| So you end up using language that's sort of reminiscent of
| that, creating an emotional picture. It usually takes
| multiple passes to transfer the whole idea from your head to
| theirs.
|
| I'm told that animation directors end up doing exactly the
| same thing. A digital model really can do what human actors
| can't. You could say "make that eyebrow curve 10% more" to an
| an animator. But it won't work unless you tell them why and
| what it means.
| dcchambers wrote:
| Rather than using DALL-E2 to fully create the logo, I think it
| might be better to use it to create some examples and get the
| creative juices flowing, save a few examples you like, then send
| them to a pro and have them create a final version. But
| definitely a neat idea and in impressed with what's possible
| here.
| turrini wrote:
| "thanos face, logo, looking surprised to the front with flames in
| the background, circled"
|
| https://imgur.com/a/1IiyMJF
| dvt wrote:
| This might not be a popular opinion, but I think all the work OP
| put in here is probably worth more than 50-100 bucks (which is
| the price of a logo on something like Fiverr). And to make things
| worse, the logo itself still needs to be cleaned up[1] as it's
| way too blurry to be seriously used as an app icon, etc.
|
| [1]
| https://raw.githubusercontent.com/cube2222/octosql/main/imag...
| ravenstine wrote:
| That too can be solved with "AI".
|
| https://imgur.com/a/m3hDMZq
|
| The software used was Topaz Labs Sharpen AI. How they define
| "AI" I can't say for certain, but they're apparently using
| models so I'm assuming there's some kind of machine learning
| involved. Their software does a really good job on photos and
| videos well beyond what a standard sharpen filter does. The
| upscaling features are also pretty awesome. (no I don't work
| for them)
| knicholes wrote:
| Jeremy Howard describes this as "Decrappification"[1]. This
| is one of the easiest deep learning models to train, in my
| opinion, as you can generate your own dataset easily. You
| just get good pictures for the target, programmatically make
| changes that make the image "crappy" for your source, and
| train until your network can convert from crappy to good.
| Then you pass it something it has never seen, and whabam,
| your picture is sharper than before.
|
| [1] - https://www.fast.ai/2019/05/03/decrappify/
| artdigital wrote:
| This still doesn't work well as a logo IMO, no amount the
| sharpening. It probably needs to get redrawn with a proper
| vector editor, the lines cleaned up and colors simplified
|
| It's a good first draft and something to give to a designer,
| but can't stand by it's own as a serious app logo
| isseu wrote:
| > worth more than 50-100 bucks
|
| Maybe in the US but not worldwide.
| treesprite82 wrote:
| > needs to be cleaned up[1] as it's way too blurry to be
| seriously used as an app icon
|
| Seems to have been blurred after the fact. The version linked
| in the article before cropping looked fairly sharp:
| https://jacobmartins.com/images/dalle2/DALL%C2%B7E%202022-08...
|
| Plus even that uncropped one is already jpeg'd, whereas DALL-E
| 2 downloads are pngs, so there should be an even sharper
| version.
| NonNefarious wrote:
| It's a cute concept that can work well if done right.
|
| In its current state it's not a viable logo because, for one
| thing, it won't look good in black & white.
| soraki_soladead wrote:
| > it won't look good in black & white
|
| That sounds like a concern that stopped being relevant for
| many software companies a decade ago at least.
|
| These days app icons and hero images are more important than
| whether you can fax or print the logo.
| mitchdoogle wrote:
| Maybe this isn't what the previous poster meant, but
| sometimes I will say black & white when really I mean
| monochrome. Monochrome logos show up all over the place
| especially with icons for web apps. And they are good for
| printing on apparel, accessories, etc. I really doubt they
| are concerned about faxing
| NonNefarious wrote:
| Wrong. And it has nothing to do with what kind of company
| you have. A logo should always degrade to 1-bit (line art)
| representation gracefully, so it can be used in or on all
| kinds of media. It could be physical objects, prints on
| hats, silhouettes on glass... not to mention being
| recognizable at all sizes.
|
| Ignoring this issue is the mark of an amateur.
| Yajirobe wrote:
| I thought the hardest part about logos is the idea itself?
| Doesn't matter that it's blurry - the majority of the work has
| been done.
| hawski wrote:
| 80% of the work has been done. Now the remaining 20% will
| take 80% of the time.
| jollybean wrote:
| It's obviously not done, and unfortunately it won't ever get
| done.
|
| They need a black and white variation, different sizes, and
| the underlying component assets.
|
| So Dalle2 might actually be able to provide that in the
| future as well.
|
| But for now - it's going go give you an 'image' which you
| have to get an artist to then clean up int a proper logo with
| assets.
|
| I'm playing with DallE-mini on hugging face and am generally
| unimpressed, I'm not sure if its' the same Dalle.
|
| I tried the main DallE website sadly don't have an 'invite'.
| almenon wrote:
| Dalle mini is not the same dalle and it's far worse.
| GaggiX wrote:
| Dalle from OpenAI, it's still in private beta, the quality
| of the model is much better but unfortunately the results
| are filtered (a lot)
| cube2222 wrote:
| I might have not been too clear about it in the article, so if
| I haven't, I agree!
|
| All of this was just me finding a practical purpose to go for
| while having fun with Dalle. If I was really serious about a
| logo, I would definitely go and pay an artist. Both for
| monetary, as well as esthetic, reasons.
|
| Though as far as an app icon goes, I think it's actually sharp
| enough. It starts looking bad when you zoom in a bit.
| nbzso wrote:
| With all respect possible, you generated something that a
| professional will create for 20 minutes on a napkin (in the
| context of logo idea).
|
| Maybe your perception of "logo" needs more reference points. For
| example, this gallery of classics in Brand Identity will be a
| good starting point(use the triangles on top to navigate):
| https://www.joefino.com/logos_html/L01_Xpand.html
|
| There is no doubt in my mind that the next iterations of neural
| networks will remove all "overpaid" and "overconfident" design
| professionals, that's why I adapted to the reality and moved to
| frontend development. All of this with clear realization that
| everything humans can do for a production processes will be
| augmented and removed. The nasty "humans" always want to be paid,
| more and more. They want to have rights and privileges. What a
| hassle.:)
| kalak wrote:
| > With all respect possible, you generated something that a
| professional will create for 20 minutes on a napkin (in the
| context of logo idea).
|
| I feel like I understand where you're coming from, but often
| the phrase I hear by experts (I even use this myself in my
| space) is, "Sure, it only took 20 minutes to do this
| wiring/write this code/draw this logo, but it took 5 years to
| know what to make." Sure, the results aren't what you'd get if
| you paid a professional logo designer, but if you can get close
| enough, it's really cutting out the X years training necessary
| to get to that point.
| nbzso wrote:
| >it's really cutting out the X years training necessary to
| get to that point.
|
| This is exactly my point. With repetition and solid design
| foundation comes the intuition what is the right direction
| towards the accomplishing of the given task.
|
| Some will say the design is a subjective, I would argue that
| designers' role is to move towards objectivity and away from
| the idea of "personal taste".
|
| That's why I give a link to the works of the master in this
| craft. This is exactly the same argument with the Copilot
| case. Is it capable to give some "boilerplate" solution -
| yes. Is this solution mediocre at best - yes.
| spaceman_2020 wrote:
| The real question is how soon will GPT-3(4?) replace commenters
| on websites like this one, and whether you will even be able to
| tell.
| Nagyman wrote:
| This is most certainly already happening. I find it kind of
| annoying not to know with certainty whether or not I'm
| engaging with a Genuine Human(TM) or not.
|
| I'm unsure if it's confirmation bias, but I find myself
| noticing weird abberations in online comments that don't seem
| to be ESL related. (edit: it's probably just mobile swipe
| typing at play)
| Shorel wrote:
| Probably that was done first.
| nbzso wrote:
| Sure, I am the secret GPT 5 experiment. Now you got me.
| Congrats:)
| Nagyman wrote:
| Exactly how I'd expect a GPT experiment to reply! ;)
|
| We'll hardly be able to tell the difference, if at all.
| Maybe it doesn't matter as long as the conversation is
| engaging for the human.
| nbzso wrote:
| Yep. Interesting times ahead of us:) How we will be able
| to tell the difference? QR Code/Genetic sample government
| approved app for human verification?
|
| And what when people are certain that the machines are
| better in everything, who will want to chat, listen to
| music or watch paintings from the "lame" humans, when the
| robots will be the ultimate solution for every human
| need?
| spaceman_2020 wrote:
| As the tech stands today, mediocre artists, designers,
| writers and content creators are likely going to be
| replaced entirely with AI.
|
| I imagine it would make it very easy to "seed" a website
| or a platform with initial "users" and content.
|
| I also imagine it will be (and likely is already) being
| deployed to create the impression of popular support (or
| lack thereof) of a politician, business or policy.
| trention wrote:
| Your "real question" ultimately resolves itself because the
| moment the novelty wears off (and it will happen very fast),
| nobody will be interested in chatting with "robots".
| tubs wrote:
| But how many iterations would I go through with the
| professional to get to the idea that isn't actually in my head,
| and how much would that cost me?
|
| The thing I think I like about this is I can meander through a
| few different concept on my own time.
| trixie_ wrote:
| You could of also paid a human to carry your comment all the
| way over to me so I could read it and reply like I am doing so
| now.
| nbzso wrote:
| What an intelligent and educating response. My comment may
| come as salty, but if you make an effort to visit the linked
| gallery, maybe you will have more "fresh perspective":)
| trixie_ wrote:
| If someone wants to pay a lot of money to a professional to
| create their brand identity that option is always there.
|
| If someone else just needs something simple and passable
| there is Dalle.
|
| And I'm sure there is every option in between where someone
| can use Dalle as a starting point and pass it to a pro, or
| a pro would even use Dalle as a way to brainstorm options.
|
| Dalle is a tool that has empowered everyone. It shouldn't
| be seen from a stereotypical luddite perspective as in your
| first post.
| burlesona wrote:
| I'm fascinated by how much this is exactly like working with a
| human artist who doesn't really understand the domain that you
| are wanting to represent with an image. Iterate, iterate,
| iterate.
|
| It seems like the most valuable thing this could do is get some
| of that early exploration out of the way faster and easier than a
| human can do it, get to two or three concepts that feel like
| they're in the neighborhood, and then let a human expert take
| over and turn it to something final quality. That's pretty cool.
| joshstrange wrote:
| Yeah, my first thought was "Ok, but you are going to need to
| involve a graphical artist to actually really make use of that
| logo". Like you probably want a vector version and you
| definitely need simplified versions for smaller sizes but then
| I stopped and realized how amazing this actually is. It "saved"
| (I know, it cost $30 but that's a steal for something like
| this) all the time and money you would have paid for iteration
| after iteration and let the author quickly hone in on what they
| wanted.
|
| As someone who is incredibly terrible at graphic design but
| knows what they like this could be a game changer as iterations
| of this technology progress. I can imagine going further than
| images and having AI/ML generate full HTML layouts in this
| iterative way where you start to define your vision for a
| website or app even and it spits out ideas/concepts that you
| can "lock" parts of it you like and let it regenerate the rest.
|
| I'm not downplaying designers role at all, I'd still go to one
| of them for the final design but to be able to wireframe using
| words/phrases and take a good idea of what I want would be
| amazing, especially for freelance/side-projects.
| Theodores wrote:
| Nice ideas, great enthusiasm.
|
| I think your art/design/craft is pretty good. Some people use
| pencils, some use Adobe products, you have gone out there and
| tried the new Dall-E medium.
|
| Glad you thought out the usage, I am sure that when the
| novelty wears off that you will have that neat-as-octocat
| logo sorted out.
|
| I appreciate that you appreciate the value that highly
| skilled designers bring to a product with their visual
| expertise.
|
| However, I would like to see you A/B test the Dall E logo
| versus the winning designer logo. You could show odd IP
| addresses one logo and even addresses the other.
|
| I think the designer would edge the robot for what you need
| (a logo), however, the proof is in the pudding and conversion
| rate.
| atwood22 wrote:
| I think this is more powerful than a simple exploration tool.
| It took the author a long time to find a query format that
| generated logo-like images. Once they had that part down, they
| were quickly able to iterate on their query to find an image
| they liked. They were even able to fix part of the logo using
| the fill-in tool. I'm not sure why you'd bring a human into the
| mix, especially if you're on a budget.
| bredren wrote:
| Yes! It gives powerful tools for someone with a concept to get
| much closer to visualization of their idea.
|
| DALL E 2 is like a low or no-code tool in that way.
|
| The outcome may not be a "finished" product, especially as
| viewed by a professional designer (or web dev). However, its a
| heck of a lot better than a tersely written spec.
|
| And in some cases, the product will work well enough to unblock
| the business, get customer feedback and generally keep things
| moving forward.
| antioppressor wrote:
| Nah, people will leave out the professional. The same wild west
| grab whatever you can, steal, plunder to the detriment of
| artists, writers etc. And when the legislation arrives it will
| be already too late, accidentally.
| cube2222 wrote:
| Agreed.
|
| At the end of the article I also described a bit how I would
| see the evolution of such a tool, and it looks like we're
| thinking very similarly.
|
| ---
|
| Though I think the real breakthrough will come when Dall-e gets
| 10-100x cheaper (and faster). I would then envision the
| following process of working with it (which is really just an
| optimization on top of what I've been doing now):
|
| 1. You write a phrase.
|
| 2. You are shown a hundred pictures for that phrase, preferably
| from very different regions of the latent space.
|
| 3. You select the ones best matching what you want.
|
| 4. Go back to 2, 4-5 times, getting better results every time.
|
| 5. Now you can write a phrase for what you would like to change
| (edit) and the original image would be used as the baseline. Go
| back to 2 until happy.
| cpeterso wrote:
| This workflow reminds me of a generative art program from the
| early 1990s, but I just can't remember its name. It was a DOS
| or Windows program that had a very curvy, fluid GUI with
| different graphics sliders. It would show you some random
| tiles and you choose one to guide the algorithm's next
| generation of tiles.
| VladimirGolovin wrote:
| Kai's Power Tools.
| qwertox wrote:
| I wonder if Kai Krause lurks here at HN. I'd love to know
| how he's doing. Apparently he's still living in his
| castle, which he bought around 1999 [0].
|
| Some-when in the 00's I read an article about him that he
| was putting advanced networking stuff into the castle and
| had the intention to start something like a "think-tank"
| (doesn't really fit it, but I don't know what I'd call
| it) where he and others would hang around and code stuff.
|
| I found the article [1] from July 2002, " _Lord of the
| Castle Kai Krause presents Byteburg II_ ".
|
| > So that 's Kai Krause's long-cherished plan: Now the
| software guru has finally opened a center for founders
| and developers from the IT and software industry in
| Hemmersbach Castle near Cologne -- the Byteburg II
|
| I really wonder what he's doing to these days. His plug-
| ins were legendary, as well as the User Interface for
| Bryce [2]
|
| [0] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burg_Rheineck
|
| [1] https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Schlossherr-
| Kai-Krau...
|
| [1, google translate] https://www-heise-
| de.translate.goog/newsticker/meldung/Schlo...
|
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryce_(software)
| rubidium wrote:
| Hunh, I'll be in that neck of the world next week. Need
| to look into this...
| DonHopkins wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27288454
|
| Love him or hate him (and I do both), Kai was all about
| cultivating his adulating cult of personality and
| dazzling everyone with his totally unique breathtakingly
| beautiful bespoke UIs! How can you possibly begrudge him
| and his fans of that simple pleasure? ;)
|
| In the modest liner notes of one of the KPT CDROMS, Kai
| wrote a charming rambling story about how he was once
| passing through airport security, and the guard
| immediately recognized him as the User Interface Rock
| Star that he was: the guy who made Kai Power Tools and
| Power Goo and Bryce!
|
| Kai's Power Goo - Classic '90s Funware! [LGR
| Retrospective]:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt06OSIQ0PE&ab_channel=LG
| R
|
| >Revisiting the mid 1990s to explore the world of gooey
| image manipulation from MetaTools! Kai Krause worked on
| some fantastically influential user interfaces too, so
| let's dive into all of it.
|
| >"Now if you're like me, you must be thinking, ok, this
| is all well and good, sure, but who the heck is Kai? His
| name's on everything, so he must be special. OH HE IS!
| Say hello to Kai Krause. Embrace his gaze! He is an
| absolute legend in certain circles, not just for his
| software contributions, but his overall life story."
| [...]
|
| >"... and now owns and resides in the 1000 year old tower
| near Rieneck Castle in Germany that he calls Byteburg.
| Oh, and along the way, he found time to work on software
| milestones like Poser, Bryce, Kai's Power Tools, and
| Kai's Super Goo, propagating what he called "Padded Cell"
| graphical interface design. "The interface is also, I
| call it the 'Padded Cell'. You just can't hurt yourself."
| -Kai
|
| But all in all, it's a good thing for humanity that Kai
| said "Nein!" to Apple's offer to help them redesign their
| UI:
|
| http://www.vintageapplemac.com/files/misc/MacWorld_UK_Feb
| _20...
|
| >read me first, Simon Jary, editor-in-chief, MacWorld,
| February 2000, page 5:
|
| >When graphics guru Kai Krause was in his heyday, he once
| revealed to me that Apple had asked him to help redesign
| the Mac's interface. It was one of old Apple's very few
| pieces of good luck that Kai said "nein"
|
| >At the time, Kai was king of the weird interface -
| Bryce, KPT and Goo were all decidedly odd, leaving users
| with lumps of spherical rock to swivel, and glowing orbs
| to fiddle with just to save a simple file. Kai's
| interface were fun, in a Crystal Maze kind of way. He did
| show me one possible interface, where the desktop
| metaphor was adapted to have more sophisticated layers -
| basically, it was the standard desktop but with no filing
| cabinet and all your folders and documents strewn over
| your screen as if you'd just turned on a fan to full
| blast and aimed it at your neatly stacked paperwork.
|
| The Interface of Kai Krause's Software:
|
| https://mprove.de/script/99/kai/index.html
|
| >Bruce "Tog" Tognazzini writes about Kansei Engineering:
|
| >>>Since the year A.D. 618 the Japanese have been
| creating beautiful Zen gardens, environments of harmony
| designed to instill in their users a sense of serenity
| and peace. [...] Every rock and tree is thoughtfully
| placed in patterns that are at once random and yet
| teeming with order. Rocks are not just strewn about; they
| are carefully arranged in odd-numbered groupings and sunk
| into the ground to give the illusion of age and
| stability. Waterfalls are not simply lined with
| interesting rocks; they are tuned to create just the
| right burble and plop. [...]
|
| >Kansei speakes to a totality of experience: colors,
| sounds, shapes, tactile sensations, and kinesthesia, as
| well as the personality and consistency of
| interactions.<< [Tog96, pp. 171]
|
| >Then Tog comes to software design:
|
| >>>Where does kansei start? Not with the hardware. Not
| with the software either. Kansei starts with attitude, as
| does quality. The original Xerox Star team had it. So did
| the Lisa team, and the Mac team after. All were dedicated
| to building a single, tightly integrated environment - a
| totality of experience. [...]
|
| >KPT Convolver [...] is a marvelous example of kansei
| design. It replaces the extensive lineup of filters that
| graphic designers traditionally grapple with when using
| such tools as Photoshop with a simple, integrated,
| harmonious environment.
|
| >In the past, designers have followed a process of
| picturing their desired end result in their mind, then
| applying a series of filters sequentially, without
| benefit of undo beyond the last-applied filter. Convolver
| lets users play, trying any combination of filters at
| will, either on their own or with the computer's aid and
| advice. [...] Both time and space lie at the user's
| complete control.<< [Tog96, pp. 174]
|
| METAMEMORIES:
|
| https://systemfolder.wordpress.com/2009/03/01/metamemorie
| s/
|
| >Anyone who has been using Macs for at least the last ten
| years will surely remember Viewpoint Corporation's
| products. No? Well, Viewpoint Corporation was previously
| MetaCreations. Still doesn't ring a bell? Maybe MetaTools
| will. Or the name Kai Krause. Or, even better, the names
| of the software products themselves -- Kai's Power Tools,
| Kai's Power Goo, Kai's Photo Soap, Bryce, Painter,
| Poser... See? Now we're talking.
|
| Macintosh Garden: KPT Bryce 1.0.1:
|
| https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/bryce-1
|
| >Experienced 3D professionals will appreciate the
| powerful controls that are included, such as surface
| contour definition, bumpiness, translucency,
| reflectivity, color, humidity, cloud attributes, alpha
| channels, texture generation and more.
|
| >KPT Bryce features easy point-and-click commands and an
| incredible user interface that includes the Sky & Fog
| Palette, which governs Bryce's virtual environment; the
| Create Palette, which contains all the objects needed to
| create grounds, seas and mountains; an Edit Palette,
| where users select and edit all the objects created; and
| the Render Palette, which has all the controls specific
| to rendering, such as setting the size and resolutions
| for the final image.
|
| MACFormat, Issue 23, April 1995, p. 28-29:
|
| https://macintoshgarden.org/sites/macintoshgarden.org/fil
| es/...
|
| https://macintoshgarden.org/sites/macintoshgarden.org/fil
| es/...
|
| >He intends to challenge everything you thought you knew
| about the way you use computers. 'I maintain that
| everything we now have will be thrown away. Every piece
| of software -- including my own -- will be complete and
| utter junk. Our children will laugh about us -- they'll
| be rolling on the floor in hysterics, pointing at these
| dinosaurs that we are using.
|
| >'Design is a very tricky thing. You don't jump from the
| Model T Fort straight to the latest Mercedes -- there's a
| million tiny things that have to be changed. And I'm not
| trying to come up with lots of little ideas where
| afterwards you go, "Yeah, of course! It's obvious!"
|
| >'Here's an easy one. For years we had eight character
| file-names on computers. Now that we have more
| characters, it seems ludicrous, am historical accident
| that it ever happened.
|
| >'What people don't realize is that we have hundreds more
| ideas that are equally stupid, buried throughout the
| structure of software design -- from the interface to the
| deeper levels of how it works inside.'
| happyopossum wrote:
| Please don't just repost walls of copy-pasta
| shon wrote:
| +1 what a great program
| Iv wrote:
| It will get cheaper. On 5 years it will run on your phone
| yomkippur wrote:
| I see this happening in all areas. Everything would be
| prompt-driven.
|
| Do you like this? What about this? You simply nod or reject
| the solutions that you don't want.
|
| Pretty soon somebody's expertise and experience is not going
| to be enough to continue paying them what they used to get
| before this magic blackbox appeared.
|
| One day enterprises will realize they can just outsource that
| expert who's been reduced to simply typing prompts and
| nodding yes or no.
|
| I am worried that the middle class is rapidly disappearing.
| We will own nothing and be happy seems quite ominous. The
| question is then what field is safe from advancements in AI?
|
| The only field I can think of is doctors, lawyers,
| executives, buy-side money managers. Even their jobs will be
| partially automated but it will be safe as long as they
| generate revenue.
| irrational wrote:
| But, if everyone's jobs are automated, nobody is making any
| money, so nobody has any money to pay doctors, lawyers,
| executives, money managers, etc. You would think that if
| these types were thinking rationally, they would be
| fighting to expand the middle class so more people can pay
| for their services.
| jfengel wrote:
| In the past, eliminating humans from one set of jobs has
| been balanced by a new set of opportunities for humans in
| different jobs. Usually, the new jobs are more valuable.
|
| That's not utopianism. The new jobs can't always be
| filled by the people kicked out of jobs. It really sucks
| to be them.
|
| But it does mean that it's not irrational for people to
| want to automate other people's jobs. The net amount of
| stuff generated increases, rather than decreases.
|
| This pattern may not last forever. There's already some
| thought that we've generated more than enough stuff to
| guarantee a decent standard of living to everybody (at
| least in the developed world) without working, and plenty
| more for luxuries if people choose to work. Even if we
| haven't reached it, we appear to be heading in that
| direction sooner rather than later.
|
| That may cause a radical re-think at some point. And it
| won't be seriously delayed by making sure cartoonists
| have jobs.
| visarga wrote:
| > enough stuff to guarantee a decent standard of living
| to everybody
|
| It's not a zero sum game. There's still growth in us.
| We'll go to space and expand 1000x more, the space has
| plenty of resources, and humans will have jobs working
| together with AI.
| logifail wrote:
| > There's still growth in us. We'll go to space and
| expand 1000x more, the space has plenty of resources, and
| humans will have jobs [..]
|
| Q: Am I the only one thinking of Golgafrinchan Ark Fleet
| Ship B?
| stevage wrote:
| Doctors are very vulnerable. Most of dermatology is simple
| pattern recognition. I can easily see AI lawyers beating
| human lawyers in litigation, too. An AI lawyer will have
| read every single case and know the outcomes, and can fine
| tune arguments for specific parameters like which judge
| etc.
| iaml wrote:
| You don't need nodding or really any conscious reaction I
| think. It should be possible to have some camera directed
| at face hooked up to another AI that catches slight changes
| in pupil dilation or other changes imperceptible to naked
| eye and registers when something looks interesting to the
| user. You can then quickly show a stream of variations and
| pick the tagged ones and use them to improve the guesses. I
| imagine something like this might one day become a
| preferred way of interacting with computers/AI.
| dylan604 wrote:
| >Pretty soon somebody's expertise and experience is not
| going to be enough to continue paying them what they used
| to get before this magic blackbox appeared.
|
| Every art director at an ad agency just shrieked!
| bigfudge wrote:
| I doubt it, because the process of thinking of phrases to
| feed dall-e is really the hard bit.
|
| This is ok for a logo like this where it's fair to say
| the base level expectation is not super creative. This
| logo is cool, but it doesn't really stand out or make the
| product ver distinctive. If I am running a hobby or OS
| project that's fine, but if I was investing a lot in
| sales/marketing then paying a real artist to make
| something interesting and novel is a rounding error.
| logifail wrote:
| > This logo is cool, but it doesn't really stand out or
| make the product ver distinctive. If I am running a hobby
| or OS project that's fine, but if I was investing a lot
| in sales/marketing then paying a real artist to make
| something interesting and novel is a rounding error.
|
| Q: Are there really logos out there that are "interesting
| and novel" and that "stand out or make the product [..]
| distinctive"? Which ones?
|
| EDIT: (perhaps more importantly) are there interesting,
| novel, distinctive logos that actually contribute to
| profitability?
| notahacker wrote:
| tbf I think when it comes to big company branding it's
| the opposite.
|
| A lot of GPT iterations of the design has left the
| article author with something which is quirkier than your
| average logo, but also looks like clipart and probably
| doesn't scale up or down well or work in monochrome.
| Which is fine for OSS. (He might get more users from blog
| traffic about using GPT-3 to design his logo than he ever
| could from any other logo anyway)
|
| But when it comes to bigger companies, the design agency
| are the people that sit in meetings with execs persuading
| them that a well chosen font and a silhouette of a much
| simplified octopus will work much better ("but maybe the
| arms could interact with some of the letters etc etc, now
| lets discuss colours). The actual technical bit of
| drawing it is the bit that's already relatively cheaply
| and easily outsourced, and plenty of corporate logos are
| wordmarks that don't even need to be drawn...
| WhitneyLand wrote:
| Given the stochastic way it works I wonder how the randomness
| is seeded for a certain phrase.
|
| In other words, if another person needed a logo and used the
| same phrase how long on average until they get a duplicate of
| your image?
| cube2222 wrote:
| Since the image is RGB 1024x1024, and the random seed is
| noise (as it is for diffusion models), I guess it would be
| quite long.
| [deleted]
| xiphias2 wrote:
| I loved the bottom left from the ones with the diagram so much
| more..it's simple and nice at the same time.
| cube2222 wrote:
| Mods: I see the title got the purpose of the logo edited out, but
| I think at least adding "a logo for my Open Source project" would
| be a much better title.
| mikecx wrote:
| Not sure if this will be considered off topic, my apologies if
| so.
|
| The article says that octopi is the plural of octopus, but it's
| actually octopuses. Octopus is originally Greek, not Latin and
| thus does not get the Latin plural -i, but instead would get the
| Greek plural -odes. Since it ends in a way English can deal with,
| the commonly accepted usage is octopuses (English) over octopodes
| (Greek) with octopi being the least correct.
|
| https://qz.com/1446229/let-us-finally-resolve-the-octopuses-...
| Tao3300 wrote:
| > While "octopi" has become popular in modern usage, it's
| wrong.
|
| What a silly thing to say! Where does this poor fool think
| language comes from?
|
| This is one of the cringiest Well-Actually-isms. It tries to
| look pedantic while _completely_ missing the point.
| hackernewds wrote:
| Octopi is also THE epitome of the "i" pluralization. I see
| people using focuses more than foci, but it's a common
| callout that octopus plural is octopi
| aidenn0 wrote:
| The way the author specifically calls out the plural of octopus
| makes me think they might be trolling (Hanlon's Razor
| notwithstanding).
| gweinberg wrote:
| They only think "octopi" is least correct, because they have
| yet to encounter "octopussen"!
| exolymph wrote:
| Actually the plural is "octopuppies."
| dalmo3 wrote:
| You're all wrong. The plural of octopus is hexadecipus.
| stavros wrote:
| Decahexipus*
| mkaic wrote:
| and mayhaps the plural of the plural of octopus is
| trigintidipus?
| etskinner wrote:
| It's a loan word, there isn't any 'correct' or 'incorrect'
| answer. Language is always evolving, which is why dictionaries
| are often descriptive instead of prescriptive.
|
| To wit: A blog post from Merriam-Webster: https://www.merriam-
| webster.com/words-at-play/the-many-plura...
| deepspace wrote:
| I much prefer octopodes over octopuses (which sounds dirty,
| somehow). Agree that octopi is an abomination.
| robotguy wrote:
| My brain always want to pronounce that as "oct-AH-poh-deez"
| like some Greek hero from the Odyssey.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| This is definitely off topic:
|
| I really dislike the latin plural rule, that some misguided but
| powerful people decided on centuries ago.
|
| "Indexes" _is_ much more natural English than "indices", and
| we should, when possible, use those those forms.
| adhesive_wombat wrote:
| Somehow I recall being told that indexes is the correct
| plural of the section at the end of a book, and indices is
| correct for subscripted things in maths and therefore
| programming.
|
| I don't think a particularly convincing reason was advanced
| other then "technical things are more Latin-adjacent".
| robotguy wrote:
| Oxford & Merriam-Webster list both plurals and the author calls
| out that octopi is "the quite beautiful plural form of
| 'octopus' " which could be interpreted as "while there are
| multiple correct plurals of octopus, octopi is the beautiful
| one." While "octopi" has become popular in
| modern usage, it's wrong.
|
| I would argue that it used to be wrong, but language, unlike
| physics and code, is what the majority say it is.
|
| I used to be a stickler for correct vocabulary usage and then I
| saw a documentary about dictionaries (can't remember what it
| was) and someone from OED said basically this (from
| https://www.oed.com/public/oed3guide/guide-to-the-third-
| edit...): The Oxford English Dictionary is not
| an arbiter of proper usage, despite its widespread reputation
| to the contrary. The Dictionary is intended to be descriptive,
| not prescriptive. In other words, its content should be viewed
| as an objective reflection of English language usage, not a
| subjective collection of usage 'dos' and 'don'ts'. However, it
| does include information on which usages are, or have been,
| popularly regarded as 'incorrect'. The Dictionary aims to cover
| the full spectrum of English language usage, from formal to
| slang, as it has evolved over time.
|
| Now I think it's something that is just fun to argue about, but
| I don't take any of it seriously.
|
| (edited for formatting)
| o_____________o wrote:
| I'd be interested in knowing what that documentary is called
| if you remember.
| [deleted]
| fareesh wrote:
| Not having a vector logo limits the places in which the same logo
| can be used.
| minimaxir wrote:
| Incidentially you can ask DALL-E 2 for "vector art" and it'll
| comply, with good enough separation that it can be traced with
| something like Inkscape into true vectors.
|
| You can also ask for "black and white vector art" to limit the
| color palette.
| amelius wrote:
| Creating the vector paths is not the most difficult aspect of
| creating a logo. Designing it is.
| slig wrote:
| One can pay someone on Fiverr 5 USD to vectorize it.
| tasuki wrote:
| It's not as simple as "take a bitmap image and make it a
| vector". Yes sure, they'll vectorize it, but it'll look bad,
| through no fault of theirs. When creating a good looking
| vector image, you generally need to take into account it
| being a vector from the beginning of the design process.
| renewiltord wrote:
| I use DALL-E for the same reason. Sometimes to pass the time I
| use it to make Slack emojis.
| trention wrote:
| It's interesting how every time I come across an AI-related
| article, it's always "imagine how much it will improve in 2
| years".
|
| This may or may not be the case but I get the feeling that most
| ITs haven't heard of diminishing returns.
| woah wrote:
| This blog post proves that Dall-E 2 will not make human taste and
| design ability obsolete. The final image he ended up with is a
| lot uglier and more complicated than most of the intermediate
| steps. I think generative art AIs will have a similar effect on
| design as compilers have on software development, and will not
| put artists out of a job.
| allenu wrote:
| I was thinking something similar. The editing process is still
| a human one, and I agree that the one chosen was weaker than a
| lot of the intermediate choices. It's a matter of taste,
| obviously, but to me the red ball with a nondescript sketched
| square around it feels unfinished. The yellow cartoony logos
| look more finished and professional to me.
| cube2222 wrote:
| Appreciate the feedback!
|
| I'll keep it mind, as I might still end up choosing a
| different one.
|
| The chosen one is closer to my original vision, but you do
| have a point that the yellow ones look more polished.
| matkoniecz wrote:
| From what I see we are at the next stage of the logo
| generation :)
| croes wrote:
| It depends. Is the customer happy with the result? Beauty is in
| the eye of the beholder. There are many professions where cheap
| products killed handmade quality.
| yomkippur wrote:
| will likely improve massively given the generational leaps made
| in this area. The "good enough" threshold is very low for
| majority of enterprises.
| bulbosaur123 wrote:
| Disagree. Just allow one or two more iterations and it will
| supersede human abilities. Think ahead. Tech progress won't
| stop.
| city17 wrote:
| The tech will get better, but ultimately there still has to
| be a human who decides 'that's the one that looks good',
| which strongly depends on someone's taste and skill in
| identifying what a good image looks like.
|
| There will probably be less need for designers of 'lower
| quality' simple images though.
| hackernewds wrote:
| There has to be x - y humans that needs X - Y hours instead
| of X humans needing X hours. And that is a real risk to the
| profession
| ramblerman wrote:
| I agree with you, but what if what constitutes good taste
| is just a subset of things that we've seen and liked.
|
| If dale decides what we see, it might become what the next
| generation likes and considers "good taste".
| gffrd wrote:
| This is an interesting conversation. Good taste is what
| we see and like ... but also patterning after people we
| want to impress / be associated with, is it not?
|
| Taste is very complex: it's hierarchical, social, not
| fixed, not absolute, not rational, is specific to
| audience and has irregular overlaps across groups, much
| of it (all?) derived from human sensation and context-
| specific situations.
|
| The path to something being considered as good taste is
| generally not simple: much of it flows through lines of
| power/desire/moment whose branches are not easy to trace
| as they're being formed. Much of taste is the hidden
| "why" which most of us never see.
|
| It's realistic that Dall-E could understand what trends
| are on the rise, or in good taste ... it's much harder to
| say if Dall-E could create something of originally good
| taste.
| monkeynotes wrote:
| > has to be a human who decides 'that's the one that looks
| good'
|
| Assuming the status quo, true. As we evolve our lives
| around emerging AI tech I think we will at first be the
| curators and creative directors of AI, but eventually a
| creative agency will defer to the AI as it knows more about
| our tastes, market, audience, and the ENTIRE HISTORY of
| art, design, marketing, tastes, trends, and so on.
|
| Eventually it won't make sense to have a stupid human
| rubber stamp what the all powerful AI suggests. Just as it
| does not make sense for Facebook to curate news feeds.
|
| Maybe one day product advertising will look different
| depending on who looks at it. Pepsi logo "just for you".
| Kiro wrote:
| Why are you framing it like your subjective taste is universal
| fact? I think the final image is the best.
| stocknoob wrote:
| If you can have humans sort the generated images into "good
| quality" and "bad quality", you can just keep iterating. Our
| subjective ratings is another score to optimize for.
| cloogshicer wrote:
| Doesn't the sample size for this have to be very large for it
| to make a difference? Genuine question.
| stocknoob wrote:
| Sure, but there are millions of people on the DALLE
| waitlist, who would happily rate the output for better
| performance / more credits. The famous ImageNet data set
| only has 1.2M images.
| cube2222 wrote:
| Moreover, the current Dalle UI already does that.
|
| When you run a phrase, you get four images. Those images will
| stay in your history, but the ones you like you will save
| with the "save" button, so that they're in your private
| collection.
|
| With this, you already have a great feedback system: saved -
| good, not saved - bad.
| rockemsockem wrote:
| I've saved some of the worst images Dalle generated to be
| able to showcase just how bad it can be sometimes. And then
| other times the bad image is hilariously bad. They can
| probably build another layer on top of the feedback system
| though to filter that sort of thing out.
| mkaic wrote:
| Will DALL*E 2 make human taste obsolete? No, absolutely not.
| But DALL*E 3? 4? Other similar models in the next 5 years?
| Absolutely yes. This blog post proves that with _current_
| algorithms, human input is needed, but it proves nothing about
| _future_ algorithms.
|
| In my personal opinion as an (admittedly junior) ML engineer
| and lifelong artist, we've got <10 years before the golden age
| of human-made art is completely over.
| p1esk wrote:
| Sounds familiar (Hinton's predictions about radiology):
| https://youtu.be/2HMPRXstSvQ
| deebosong wrote:
| Not trying to be a luddite and/or vehemently defend the noble
| profession of nuanced graphic design, BUT...
|
| Those iterations suck. I'm not worried for my colleagues and I.
|
| That being said! Many, MANY clients have questionable taste,
| and I can, indeed, see many who aren't sensitive to visuals to
| be more than happy with these Dall-E turd octopus logo
| iterations. Most people don't know and don't care what makes
| good graphic design.
|
| For one thing, that final logo can't scale. For another, the
| colors lack nuance & harmony. The logo is more like a
| children's book illustration, and not something that is simple,
| bold, smart, and can be plastered on any and all mediums.
|
| Just my 2 cents.
|
| I bet in another 10-15 years, though, things might get a bit
| dicier for fellow graphic designers/ artists/ illustrators,
| though, as all this tech gets more advanced.
| bigfudge wrote:
| I agree. But I think the key thing is that deciding what
| phase to feed the system was still the key task. Creative
| people are unlikely to be out of a job anytime soon, even if
| they end up using something like Dalle to make quick
| prototypes.
| hmryehbut wrote:
| cheschire wrote:
| I think a tool like this might be good to help clients get
| through a few ideation phases on their own prior to showing
| up to the first discussion with branding / graphics / design
| professionals. At least it might get them closer to
| understanding the impossibility of their 7 perpendicular red
| lines requirement.
| hackernewds wrote:
| It certainly reduces the # of designers necessary. Just
| because it doesn't obliterate all of the designers doesn't
| mean the profession isn't at risk. Today fewer data viz
| experts are hired despite the proliferation of data, since
| we now have Tableau, Looker, etc
|
| A more obtuse example, how many lift operators do you see
| today?
| jiggywiggy wrote:
| So what you are saying, the ai hasn't yet grown up to be
| boring, clean, simple adult like the western scandavian
| school.
| whatgoodisaroad wrote:
| DALL-E2 and similar are unbundlings: the best artists synergize
| 1) technical ability with 2) good taste. 1 is the ability to
| climb a hill and 2 informs the direction of "up", and both take
| years to develop well.
|
| What's really interesting about this class of AIs is that they
| unbundle the two and you can play with them independently for
| the first time.
| monkeynotes wrote:
| Train Dall-E on more logos that you like. I can imagine a
| creative agency purchasing a Dall-E 2 instance and training it
| up on a model specific to the work and clients they have
| ongoing.
|
| If nothing else, inspiration is just a click away. No more
| searching for ideas, just talk to the AI and it will pump out
| numerous ideas for you.
| mrxd wrote:
| It's a good start, but it's more of an illustration than a logo
| to be honest. It should work as a single color (white, black), at
| small scale and in combination with your product name.
| zppln wrote:
| Yeah, I feel like these would work better as icons rather than
| logos.
| Karawebnetwork wrote:
| It would need to be turned into a vector to scale properly but
| I can think of other apps that have complex logos, especially
| on the MacOS ecosystem. Git Tower comes to mind.
| jollyllama wrote:
| OP might be able to achieve that with a few minutes in
| Illustrator or similar.
| speedgoose wrote:
| Starting up illustrator already takes a few minutes.
| mitchdoogle wrote:
| I think you might need a new computer
| mminer237 wrote:
| Very roughly, it looks fine to me:
| https://i.imgur.com/6K73qiA.png
| 6gvONxR4sf7o wrote:
| I've had luck with similar things by being careful about my
| text prompt. Asking for tiny icon sized images also seems to
| clue it into the stylistic constraints of tiny icons (like what
| you mention).
| amelius wrote:
| Yes, the main usecase for DALL-E is probably for illustrations
| next to a story/blog. Logos are much harder to get right, and
| unsurprisingly DALL-E is not up to the task (yet).
| pugworthy wrote:
| The more I see from this, the more I think it's not unreasonable
| to have AI write code. "Create a user signup and authentication
| form with RoR that uses 2FA based on phone number", and it gives
| you several to choose from. You pick one then start refining the
| requests.
|
| Also, perhaps it can be smart enough to ask questions, like "What
| database should this be written for?" in the above example.
| anony23 wrote:
| Copilot is halfway there
| cube2222 wrote:
| Hey, author here, happy to answer any questions!
|
| The logo was created for OctoSQL[0] and in the article you can
| find a lot of sample phrase-image combinations, as it describes
| the whole path (generation, variation, editing) I went down. Let
| me know what you think!
|
| And btw. if you get access take a look at [1] before you start
| using it. A ton of useful bits and pieces for your phrases.
|
| TLDR: DALL*E 2 is really cool, though takes quite a bit of work
| to arrive at a useful picture. Moreover, some types of images
| work better than others ("pencil sketch" is consistently
| awesome). As with programming, it's difficult to realize how much
| pieces you have to specify if you're not an artist - you don't
| know what you don't know.
|
| [0]: https://github.com/cube2222/octosql
|
| [1]: http://dallery.gallery/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/The-
| DALL%C...
| [deleted]
| egypturnash wrote:
| How much did the credits for all this image generation cost
| you?
|
| edit: found it in the article: "From a monetary perspective,
| I've spent 30 bucks for the whole thing (in the end I was
| generating 2-3 edits/variations per minute). In other words,
| not too much."
| minimaxir wrote:
| I've spent $30 for my own DALL-E 2 experiments, and that's
| _with_ the bonus credits they gave for early adopters.
|
| It gets expensive fast.
| xwdv wrote:
| With DALLE 2, I'll pretty much never hire a graphic designer
| again to make any kind of logo. Good riddance, I'm sick and tired
| of their pretentious justifications for charging upwards of
| $500-$1k or more for simple logo designs.
| SquareWheel wrote:
| I'm not looking forward to people saying the same of coders in
| 10 years time...
| ChildOfChaos wrote:
| Ah man, I do like what Dall-E is doing right now, i'm curious
| about the possibilities, even thinking of using it as a start
| for digital art and then manipulating the output in
| photoshop, i'm fairly good/creative at that manipulation side
| and I like what I can do there but I am a terrible artist, so
| this is good to get the starting point.
|
| However as it gets better, even that won't be needed and I'm
| concerned then what that means for the average person, or for
| me trying to get my skills up so i can increase income, only
| for it to get wiped out by AI at some point in the future.
| xwdv wrote:
| By then I will have moved far beyond hands on keyboard type
| work and will be managing teams.
| KidComputer wrote:
| Doubt it, you seem kind of socially inept.
| trention wrote:
| Teams of what?
| avian wrote:
| Trivializing the work of people outside of one's profession
| while giving more importance to one's own is as old as the
| human civilization. There are plenty of people cursing
| software developers right now for pulling six digit salaries
| in exchange for typing some dumb text on a screen.
| arkitaip wrote:
| That's already happening with no code tools, hosted
| solutions, saas, GitHub copilot and more.
| trention wrote:
| So far no-code and copilot have put exactly 0 developers
| out of business.
| cube2222 wrote:
| I beg to disagree.
|
| I think it makes much more sense for simple illustrations for
| articles, presentations and books ("pencil sketch" style). For
| logos, especially since you'd usually want simpler shapes, less
| detail, with a lot of readability, I'd go pay an artist if it
| was for a company I was building.
| DantesKite wrote:
| I don't imagine the image quality will stay at this level for
| long. It'll likely improve dramatically over the coming
| months/years.
| nemo wrote:
| For logos you want specifically a design that will work
| well in black and white, and you want assets that are
| vector art. At the point that AIs can produce that it's
| worth revisiting for logos, but I'd bet that's probably
| more on a "many years from now" schedule.
| xwdv wrote:
| These AIs weren't trained on logos.
| 8note wrote:
| That sounds a lot like a way to score the outputs for
| training to me.
| xwdv wrote:
| Heh, and you don't think we won't train AIs specifically for
| drawing logos where not only can you specify features that
| you want but even the demographics you want it to appeal to
| based on mass collection of data.
| aantix wrote:
| Here's a vast catalog of Dall-E images and the prompts used to
| generate them.
|
| https://www.krea.ai/
|
| If you generate an image with Dall-E and there's a face that is
| distorted, you can use this tool to restore the facial features.
|
| https://arc.tencent.com/en/ai-demos/faceRestoration
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-08-02 23:00 UTC)