[HN Gopher] Habitual GPS use negatively impacts spatial memory d...
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Habitual GPS use negatively impacts spatial memory during self-
guided navigation
Author : goplayoutside
Score : 52 points
Date : 2022-08-14 20:38 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
| chippytea wrote:
| One of the things I like to do when I go somewhere new is try to
| drive (or often cycle) back home without using my phone. I get
| lost sometimes, but I feel a silly sense of achievement when I
| make it back home without checking my phone. I enjoy the
| challange and I also learn a lot about my local area. There are
| many businesses in my city that I discovered only because I was
| trying to memorise a route.
| avl999 wrote:
| I am practically incapable of navigating without GPS/Google maps.
| ghaff wrote:
| Well, you have to prep. And, to be honest, if you're by
| yourself you're probably going to be balancing a map on your
| lap someplace if it's not straightforward.
|
| There's also the old movie/TV trope where, typically, the guy
| refuses to stop at a gas station to ask for directions if
| they're lost. Which has now (mostly) joined the trope of not
| being able to reach someone just because they're not in the
| physical location you expect them to be.
| nso95 wrote:
| It's true, but how does one deal with it?
| kelnos wrote:
| Easy: use GPS less. Maybe rely on it for your first trip
| somewhere new, but after that, try to navigate by memory. And
| even when you've gone somewhere new, try to find your way back
| home without the GPS. For locations that you frequent, don't
| use the GPS at all. Often I'll do a quick GPS check for places
| like that just to see if my normal route is clear of bad
| traffic, and then travel without it running.
|
| Yes, you'll get lost occasionally, but that's ok. You'll still
| have the GPS if you get hopelessly lost and give up.
| devchix wrote:
| Yes but a major part of wayfinding now is to route around
| traffic. I know my way to work every day but still turn on
| GPS because I don't know where accident and detours might be
| happening.
| BrentOzar wrote:
| Habitual calculator usage negatively impacts basic mathematics
| skills, film at 11.
| acidburnNSA wrote:
| And I'm guessing habitual recall via Google query negatively
| impacts memory recall skills. News at 11:30.
| thewarrior wrote:
| I have been wondering recently whether this is a bad thing.
| Because having the right ideas in memory is often required
| for making creative leaps. Relying too much on google can
| actually inhibit creativity.
| acidburnNSA wrote:
| I used to worry that it was bad, but now I've embraced it.
| I try to know just enough to synthesize new thoughts but
| can defer to Google for details.
| throwawaysleep wrote:
| On the other hand, Google lets you actually find
| information rather than just wishing you had it.
|
| https://imgur.io/pumgE
|
| Do I remember a lower percentage of the facts I have
| encountered in life than others? Almost certainly. But I
| also bet that I have encountered vastly more as a result.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| > Google lets you actually find information rather than
| just wishing you had it.
|
| Correct. And that's a problem.
|
| The "wishing you had it" part is actually really
| important.
|
| Creativity and understanding isn't just assembling a
| jigsaw puzzle of discrete information facts. Holding
| together a mental model, including many partial and
| missing pieces of information, is how innovative leaps
| occur.
|
| A Google driven life, treading over popular, permitted
| pathways is comfortable and convenient but requires only
| some small fraction of the adult human brain. More is not
| necessarily more when it comes to information.
| potatoman22 wrote:
| I don't think it's bad overall. Web search has essentially
| extended our recall abilities to everything that's easily
| searchable if you have a device on hand.
| someweirdperson wrote:
| Only arithmetics skills, not basic mathematics skills in
| general.
| tshaddox wrote:
| Habitual flint and pyrite usage negatively impacts basic bow
| drill fire making skills.
| abnry wrote:
| I enjoy navigating without gps. I can always memorize most of the
| way there as it is usually just following main roads. It is the
| last portion that can be hardest. I like to think of directions
| in terms of "topological complexity". If it is just off a highway
| or off of a road off the highway it is easy to navigate to. Has
| nothing to do with how far away it is or how familiar I am with
| the area.
|
| Similar to this is the fact that it is always easier to navigate
| home than to a new place. In the former, you are aiming for the
| web of roads that you recognize. In the latter, it is a specific
| point.
| zxcvbn4038 wrote:
| I'm more the opposite - I spent decades driving without GPS,
| and I got to see very little of where I went because I'm trying
| to read a map or atlas, not crash into anyone, and cross six
| lanes of traffic because the exit is on the opposite side of
| the highway. I drove the equivalent of twelve times around the
| equator and it was all a blur. With GPS I can actually look
| beyond the car in front of me and enjoy seeing what I am
| driving through. In recent years I've started setting the Avoid
| Highways feature and taking back roads everywhere - no traffic,
| no cops, no people driving crazy, lots of wildlife, lots of
| sights, cheap gas, etc. generally only adds an hour to my
| travel time.
| matwood wrote:
| I agree on all points. I remember driving from Paris to
| Epinal using printed out directions. At some point after the
| 15 roundabout we had no idea where we were. Luckily we were
| are to speak with some nice people to help guide us the rest
| of the way, but we almost missed the time we had to be at our
| destination.
| dsomers wrote:
| News flash, when you stop practicing a skill you get worse at
| that skill. Really insightful study, grade A hackernews content
| right here. I can't wait for Malcom Gladwell to write a book on
| this so we can get a deeper dive on it.
| DaltonCoffee wrote:
| "Every extension of mankind, especially technological extensions,
| has the effect of amputating or modifying some other
| extension[...] The extension of a technology like the automobile
| "amputates" the need for a highly developed walking culture,
| which in turn causes cities and countries to develop in different
| ways. The telephone extends the voice, but also amputates the art
| of penmanship gained through regular correspondence. ways." --
| Marshall McLuhan, Understanding Media: The Extensions of Man
|
| Love this quote, and many others by MM. Utterly blows my mind how
| we seem to be failing to apply and extend his teachings to help
| understand this modernity beta test we're participating in.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| I think you'd really like Lewis Mumford too.
|
| Ellul, Mumford, McLuhan, Postman and Illich constitute
| (accessible [1]) Technological Critique 101. I think they are
| essential reading for anyone who claims to be a "technologist"
| and wants to deeply understand the anthropological relations of
| humans and our technology.
|
| [1] Without digging into Heidegger and more difficult stuff.
| bmitc wrote:
| Damn, how have I not heard of Marshall McLuhan before? Getting
| that book now.
| tootie wrote:
| I think "obviate" is a better term than "amputate". I mean, who
| the hell cares about penmanship? Absolutely useless skill.
| lock-the-spock wrote:
| While I empathise with your position I can totally see how
| others might not. Letter writing is a specific skill to
| provide a dense and clear message. You have to prepare this
| message in your head first as you cannot (attractively)
| eliminate what you wrote already unless you redo the whole
| letter. Im sure many people today would have benefitted from
| more occasions to hone thinking and preparation ahead of
| expressing views or opinions.
|
| Similarly you could say remembering phone numbers is a
| useless skill that many had pre smartphones - you just knew
| your 30 or so most used numbers. Now we all depend on our
| phones and once the battery is dead many people don't seem to
| know _any_ number by heart.
| whiddershins wrote:
| I would recommend (the now outdated) The Brain that Changes
| Itself. All about nueroplasticiy. The brain will literally
| prune what you don't use, and certain skills, such as the
| fine motor skills required by developing penmanship, can
| plausibly have wide reaching impact one way or the other.
| Bolkan wrote:
| On a related note, playing far cry 2 without using the handheld
| map and walking everywhere did wonders for my spatial memory. The
| game is gorgeous and full of tiny details so it isn't as boring
| as it might sound.
|
| Each mission starts with an npc giving you the location of your
| target (safehouse 2 miles east of shanty town, outpost south of
| lumber yard). Sun can be used as a compass (when it's not
| raining). After a while you start to recognize the landmarks and
| don't need the map anymore.
| daleharvey wrote:
| I spend a lot of time outdoors / hillwalking / mountain climbing
| in Scotland and it is quite fustrating and in my opinion quite
| dangerous how technophobic the standard advice given is.
|
| Almost universally guides and mountain rescue people will advise
| that people should carry and have knowledge of how to use a map
| and compass, inform that a phone with GPS is to be used as a
| backup with no advice given on how to use it.
|
| Navigating with a map and compass is a difficult skill that takes
| a lot of practise, Scottish munros are very regularly subject to
| almost zero visibility where even the most advanced navigator
| would have difficulty. Almost none of the receipients of this
| advice actually want to navigate, they want to be able to follow
| a route for duration of their journey. A task that is very simply
| done with a phone if someone has been given the correct
| instruction.
|
| When people have an appropriate route downloaded on their phone
| to work offline ensuring they have enough charge and suitable
| backup devices alongside told someone their route and expected
| time of return they have covered most of the situations that get
| people in trouble in terms of navigation.
|
| Instead they are routinely told to bring a map and compass by
| people who generally seem to be enthusiastic volunteers who have
| a deep interest specifically around navigation.
| mro_name wrote:
| > route downloaded on their phone to work offline
|
| I do it all the time and never met anybody else do it. Rather
| everybody happily relies on online maps.
|
| Do you think widespread offline use is the case?
|
| I agree that to most map and compass are rather useless, but
| still slightly more useful compared to a phone with drained
| battery or no network coverage.
| ghaff wrote:
| >I do it all the time and never met anybody else do it.
| Rather everybody happily relies on online maps.
|
| That's a good example of one way to reduce a pretty common
| failure mode.Lack of cell phone service is probably a lot
| more common than a dead phone especially if you carry a
| backup external battery. (Outside of extreme conditions but
| that's a separate matter.)
| daleharvey wrote:
| Specifically for Munros which is what I do network coverage
| can be pretty bad and at least a few people I have talked to
| have done the same as me and got caught out depending on the
| internet then in future downloaded the route. The main
| website everyone uses here has a .gpx for every walk (https:/
| /www.walkhighlands.co.uk/fortwilliam/buachailleetivem... for
| example)
|
| I think drained batteries and no network coverages are
| problems that can and should be addressed by advising people
| properly. Instead I think some people end up over prepared
| and most people go in with a map and a compass but still
| completely underprepared.
| jltsiren wrote:
| > Navigating with a map and compass is a difficult skill that
| takes a lot of practise
|
| That's a serious exaggeration. Navigating with a map and
| compass was taught to 10-year-old kids in elementary school
| when I was that age, and then it was practiced a few times
| every year. Probably to ensure that men didn't waste too much
| time learning basic skills in mandatory military service.
| daleharvey wrote:
| I wasn't talking about how to orient a map, I was speaking
| about traversing mountains where being metres off route is
| potentially fatal with little to no visibility. Saying that
| is difficult is not exagerating.
| withinboredom wrote:
| Def learned this skill in the army. Still count my steps as a
| habit. I can tell you how many kilometers I walk, and it is
| usually almost what my watch says I walked.
|
| I'm still not sure which one is more correct.
| ghaff wrote:
| I dunno.
|
| >and suitable backup devices
|
| First of all, I wonder how many people actually have suitable
| backup devices.
|
| Secondly, stuff does happen. There are a lot of circumstances
| where a very simple compass and map--and knowledge that doesn't
| require elite M&C navigation skills can be the difference
| between "Um, I have no idea where I am and how to get home" and
| "Damn, I guess I need to do this the old fashioned way." Yes,
| there are conditions and locations where the "old fashioned
| way" is really difficult to do. But often there are trails and
| some visibility and you just need some basic ability to read a
| map and know what direction you're headed in.
|
| Do I bother when I know an area and the weather is good? Nope.
| But for anything more advanced, I carry a map and compass as
| pretty cheap and easy insurance.
| daleharvey wrote:
| > First of all, I wonder how many people actually have
| suitable backup devices.
|
| Virtually every group of people will have multiple backup
| devices, for people going solo it something that should (but
| isn't) recommended.
|
| > Secondly, stuff does happen.
|
| Stuff does and in every case if you want to follow a route
| having a little dot that shows you exactly where you are in
| relation to that route is better than having a map and
| compass. I am not sure why you are replying to my point as if
| it is not a choice for people to carry a phone with them but
| somewhat makes the point.
|
| A properly prepared phone is a map and compass, it does
| everything a map and compass can do and then adds an extra
| useful feature of "and this is exactly where you are"
| ghaff wrote:
| I often hike by myself and, in general, try not to depend
| on other people having things unless pre-arranged.
|
| I certainly use phone apps--including the Ordinance Survey
| app in the UK, which is very good. But if I'm hiking in an
| unfamiliar area, yes, I also do carry a map and compass
| because that seems like a low cost and effort backup. I'm
| absolutely not arguing _against_ using a smartphone app as
| primary navigation. But I do also encourage having backup.
| daleharvey wrote:
| Yeh I often go solo and after a few experiences,
| particularly if its unfamiliar, I try to make sure to
| have a charged backup device with routes etc loaded.
|
| Similiarly I am not arguing against people using a map
| and compass, but I think the current advice which is
| entirely focused on map and compass with little guidance
| for phone users (which if it exists, is always caveated)
| has a lot more to do with outdoors peoples notions of
| technological purity and less to do with public health
| manicdee wrote:
| What is the distinction between following a route and
| navigating?
| withinboredom wrote:
| Navigating is looking and matching up landmarks to a map to
| identify your current position, and then determining the
| route you will follow. (Orientation) From there, you use a
| compass to follow that route, counting your steps. You have
| to know how many steps it takes you to walk a km/mile, then
| you can reorient every so often to adjust your route based on
| your real position.
|
| Just following a route is easy, in comparison.
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| Following a trail means you have some reference of a foot
| path to stay on and follow. Navigating could mean anything--
| it might be reading a vague description like "follow the
| trail to a cairn at mile 5, then bushwhack up hill 1500
| vertical feet to a ridge, follow the ridge as it ascends the
| mountain choosing an obvious class 3 scramble on the east
| side that avoids serious exposure (if you encounter class 5
| terrain you are off route)". With navigation you have to use
| a lot more senses and tools and knowledge, the path isn't
| immediately obvious.
| nickjj wrote:
| Independent of GPS I think people are built differently and can
| understand 3D (first person) vs 2D (top down) worlds in different
| ways.
|
| I know someone who can go anywhere once without GPS and recall
| directions 10 years later even if they never drove near that area
| again. It's like their memory can recall it the same as the first
| time they went there. At the same time watching them type on a
| keyboard is about the same as what it must have been like to
| witness humans using basic tools for the first time.
|
| I've always been bad with driving directions, the idea of
| navigating in 3D from the first person doesn't mesh with how I
| think for recalling directions but if I look at a top down 2D map
| and split things into a grid then it's not too bad. I only just
| started using GPS the other week but I feel like it has helped me
| retain information a lot better, I can visualize the route in my
| mind and trace the turns with street names in a way that I could
| never do before.
|
| Interestingly enough I don't think it's necessarily first person
| vs top down on its own too. I've played a lot of FPS games in the
| past with games that never had a top down map and I can still run
| through them mentally like 15-20 years later. I don't know what
| it is, it doesn't make sense to be tuned for navigating a virtual
| world vs physical world but I do think GPS clicks some checkbox
| in my brain that makes it be perceived as virtualized even though
| it's mapping the physical world.
| throwaway675309 wrote:
| Well duh, there was a study on London cabbies who had to take a
| test known as "the knowledge", and it was found that they had
| significantly more growth in their hippocampus.
|
| So obviously the reverse would probably be true.
|
| I remember I used to chunk numbers in 3 to 4 digit groupings
| because back in the day that was how I naturally memorized phone
| numbers, successive generations probably can't rely on that
| tactic as much simply because there's so little need to retain
| the phone numbers in memory with the invention of smart phones.
| extr wrote:
| Very believable, I've noticed this effect myself. When I've moved
| to a new area, if I use GPS exclusively to get around it takes me
| months to learn the names of roads and do "route planning" in my
| head. Versus very quickly, within a few days/weeks if I only
| refer to GPS when legitimately lost or unsure.
|
| The thing is, why bother? I always have my phone. If I'm within a
| few miles of my house, I can figure out where I'm going, but
| maybe it takes me a little longer, and I don't come up with the
| optimal route, and now I and have the risk of getting caught in
| unexpected change in traffic patterns. If I'm somewhere
| unfamiliar, spatial memory is irrelevant and I have to rely on it
| regardless.
|
| Actually I feel like GPS makes me a better than navigator. Having
| the "top down" view makes it feel like a video game, and that's
| one area where I have a ton of practice looking at a 2D map,
| relating it to 3D environment, and so on.
| ghaff wrote:
| >I always have my phone.
|
| Until you don't. It's probably a generational thing but I tend
| to have non-electronic backups when it's relatively cheap and
| easy to do so. And for relatively routine places I walk/drive,
| I much prefer to have the route in my head.
| noirbot wrote:
| I think a lot of this ends up behind how you learn navigation.
| I love GPS as a way to build up heuristics of how to get places
| in a new city/from a new location. I find I mostly learn routes
| by visual memory and not by street names/distances/number of
| blocks. I know to turn at a specific building/business, and not
| because it's 5th street or a specific train station.
|
| If you're someone who learns your routes in terms of
| facts/numbers, then I can see GPS hurting your memory, but in
| my case, the GPS won't tell me to turn at the Walmart, or get
| off at the train station with the green tile. So after a few
| GPS trips, I've learned the route in the way my brain will
| remember. This especially helps when I don't know the traffic
| patterns or alternate routes that a navigation app does.
|
| These days, for routes I don't know really well, or have high
| traffic variance, I'll check GPS to verify a route, and then
| use the route without using the app directly.
| zitterbewegung wrote:
| I only use gps to get places where I don't know where to go but
| after that I stop using it .
|
| But this begs the question why is losing this is bad when we can
| use our brains for something completely different or make peoples
| jobs more productive
| kuschku wrote:
| I just use Google Maps as actual map, not as navigation. That
| means I use it to find where I am, look at the roads, and look at
| where I want to go, and plan the route on the map myself.
|
| This helps me to stay oriented when I'm not using a maps app as
| well, because I already know which roads intersect with which,
| where, and how to take them to get from A to B.
|
| Sadly, Google Maps does everything they can to prevent you from
| doing this, e.g. not showing street names at all unless you zoom
| in to ridiculous levels (and often not even then) as well as not
| showing you which roads are one-way, which roads allow bicycles,
| etc.
|
| That's why I mostly rely on Open Street Map and similar actual
| maps.
|
| Also, if I've got additional time to get somewhere, I'll get lost
| on purpose, taking roads I don't know yet, then looking at the
| maps to figure out where I am (which is super useful to discover
| hidden paths and shortcuts).
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