[HN Gopher] On a road to Prizren with a Free Software Phone
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On a road to Prizren with a Free Software Phone
Author : pabs3
Score : 131 points
Date : 2022-08-13 07:46 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (honk.sigxcpu.org)
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| goodpoint wrote:
| This comment section has a bunch of people whining that Free
| Software phones developed by mostly *unpaid volunteers* are not
| good enough.
|
| Also, nobody gifted me a pony today.
| user764743 wrote:
| If only people could get the phone they pre-ordered. The
| /r/purism subreddit is so much filled with horror stories and
| dishonest marketing practices by the company that I decided
| against ordering one.
| jstanley wrote:
| I received my Librem 5. I wrote a short review[0] when I first
| got it.
|
| Since then it has developed a fault whereby the phone crashes
| immediately as soon as I switch the wifi kill-switch on. Just
| instant black screen, nothing happening. Sometimes I have to
| take the battery out to get it to boot back up. I just don't
| use wifi. Apart from that it still works great.
|
| [0] https://incoherency.co.uk/blog/stories/librem5-first-
| impress...
| TylerE wrote:
| But other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
| piethesailorman wrote:
| I see much of this on the subreddit as well. Though maybe I can
| be a point of anecdata to the opposite side. I ordered(Librem 5
| USA) in December 21, got my phone in July 22. Had some small
| issues, emailed customer support, got helpful responses. The
| phone calls and texts fine. There are good apps, a good
| community, etc. I think there is a loud minority of people that
| didn't quite understand what they were buying into. A small
| company and a first product.. you're really speculating by
| being early. This is not going to be remotely close to the same
| experience as buying a device with +20y of development from a
| top 5 most traded public companies in the U.S.. I bought the
| phone with the understanding, maybe I get the phone in 2022,
| maybe I don't. Maybe I get the phone and it can't make
| calls/texts because of a software issue and I'll have to wait
| for a fix or aid in development.. I would recommend the phone
| to others who share similar expectations. Though I would
| recommend the USA version as they seem to be available. It
| seems those still waiting for phones might be stuck waiting for
| the chinese model.(chip shortage related? Idk)
| monopoliessuck wrote:
| I was a super early pre-order and then waited years for
| SOMETHING. I eventually asked for a refund which they said
| they'd honor. I've now been in the refund "queue" for over a
| year or two. I've lost count of the exact number of years,
| promises and emails at this point.
|
| I understand growing pains, but purism is neither a transparent
| nor a trustworthy company. Buy a PinePhone Pro and call it a
| day. It's still not ready for prime time as a daily driver,
| IMO, but the company is a breath of fresh air in comparison.
| piethesailorman wrote:
| This is a bummer. Did you order the USA model or the Chinese
| model?
| monopoliessuck wrote:
| The US model didn't exist even as a concept at the time I
| pre-ordered. I ordered before the first lot, but picked
| Evergreen because I wanted it to work and I didn't mind
| funding and waiting, but this is crazy.
|
| I realize there's a valid difference between place of
| origin, but for me sitting here empty handed, the US model
| just seemed like a way to upcharge for a product that
| hardly existed in any form.
|
| Chinese? American? Whatever, for me vapor is vapor no
| matter where it's supposed to be coming from "eventually".
| caboteria wrote:
| When I asked for a refund I was told that they had changed
| their mind and they were no longer honoring their original
| policies. I have the phone now and it's pretty much a
| paperweight. Someday I might want to play around with it but
| at the moment it's more of a toy and less of a phone.
| emptyparadise wrote:
| Very nice, looks like these open phones are moving forward. Would
| love to have a new Nokia N900.
| HidyBush wrote:
| We still don't have a free software feature phone that has the
| same polish as bottom of the barrel flip phones from 20 years
| ago. I have a PinePhone and I'm seriously asking myself how much
| time it will take to get an experience remotely comparable with
| even the first iPhone, both in terms of ease of use and features.
| I believe people are rushing down this road with no real vision
| of what such a device needs to feel useable. I am planning to
| start developing something for the PinePhone in foreseeable the
| future, but just the difficulty in retrieving resources about
| understanding how the Linux kernel is patched to run on that ARM
| board, the necessary drivers and how all the various sensors and
| interfaces communicate really lets me down
| megous wrote:
| It all mostly uses standard Linux interfaces. IIO for most
| sensors, V4L2 for camera, AT interface for modem, ALSA for
| codec audio controls, I2C to talk with accessories, USB
| configfs to configure USB gadgets,...
|
| I struggle to recall something that's purely Pinephone specific
| from the userspace perspective. I tried almost all the lowest
| level Linux HW interfaces usable on Pinephone.
| wiz21c wrote:
| >>> just the difficulty in retrieving resources about
| understanding how the Linux kernel is patched to run on that
| ARM board, the necessary drivers and how all the various
| sensors and interfaces communicate really lets me down
|
| maybe you could give it a try and document your trip ? As
| someone who'd love to help the cause, but who doesn't have much
| time, a good documentation would help.
| longrod wrote:
| It took Linux desktop some 20 years to reach the point where you
| could _just_ use it i.e., no tinkering needed, everything works
| by default, you install the software you need and that 's it.
| It's not perfect even now but it's much better. I rarely have to
| pop into the terminal to tinker with a system config file now.
|
| We don't have 20 years to wait when it comes to free software
| phones. The problem is that phones are not meant to be hacked
| upon. They are meant to be used. Sure, it may feel nice to tinker
| and stuff but everything should _just_ work before you can even
| consider it a daily driver.
|
| I haven't personally used Librem or Pinephone so I don't know how
| far along they are in terms of user experience (not developer
| experience).
| eitland wrote:
| Linux has worked much better out of the box than Windows for a
| number of applications since at least a 2006.
|
| Don't confuse Windows, - slipstreamed and supported by a
| competent IT department - with what a user gets out of the box
| from an OEM.
|
| Please note:
|
| I have supported users on Windows from 1995 to somewhere after
| 2012 (a little bit blurry).
|
| Just saying "you don't know what you are talking about" won't
| cut it.
| BoorishBears wrote:
| You _can 't_ know what you are talking about?
|
| Your experience supporting Windows users isn't all
| encompassing, you defined no criteria whatsoever for "better
| out of the box", you didn't define any of the applications...
| the list goes on.
|
| Take ease of install. I assure you in 2006 Linux was not as
| easy to install as it is today when it comes to things like
| having working power management. Even something as basic as
| having a computer successfully go to sleep and come back with
| working wifi was often a challenge.
|
| Or take gaming. Today Wine/Proton have come leaps and bounds
| and Linux still ends up excluded from some of the largest
| gaming titles out there.
|
| Or making a simple word document that renders the same way on
| Window user's PCs as it does on yours. I was one of those
| people trying to force OpenOffice/LibreOffice and there was
| nothing more fun than chasing down weird issues when a
| Windows user using one of the most popular word editors on
| earth couldn't properly render your document...
|
| The reality is Windows won on desktop, and a very small
| minority of people still want to dump on Windows. For all its
| warts, it's clearly made the tradeoffs that benefit the
| largest number of desktop users.
| cowtools wrote:
| >Today Wine/Proton have come leaps and bounds and Linux
| still ends up excluded from some of the largest gaming
| titles out there.
|
| It is due to anti-cheat. Whose fault is that? The
| developers refuse to support linux even if we meet them
| halfway.
|
| >The reality is Windows won on desktop, and a very small
| minority of people still want to dump on Windows. For all
| its warts, it's clearly made the tradeoffs that benefit the
| largest number of desktop users.
|
| Windows "won" because it was there first and it's stayed
| there due to its anti-competitive behavior (see halloween
| documents, windows refund day, etc.). You would be hard-
| pressed to buy a laptop or something without paying for
| microsoft's license- they have deals with all the
| manufacturers to stop competition before it even happens.
|
| Microsoft is sitting on top of a massive cash cow. They
| will continue to plunder their user-base with ads and
| spyware, and they will continue neglect their
| responsibilities as a custodian to the extent that it
| improves their numbers in some board-room meeting. The
| "value-offering" of windows will get so bad that users
| might switch to linux/wine or reactOS. They might not
| switch now, but here's the way I see it: linux will only
| improve and windows will only get worse. It's not over
| until the fat lady sings.
| BoorishBears wrote:
| > It is due to anti-cheat. Whose fault is that? The
| developers refuse to support linux even if we meet them
| halfway.
|
| Windows meets them all the way. Not having to deal with
| LSB, Glibc, different distros, etc.
|
| > Windows "won" because it was there first and it's
| stayed there due to its anti-competitive behavior
|
| Why does every pro-Linux statement devolve into an anti-
| Windows statement the moment it meets resistance.
|
| If Linux is truly "better" for whatever useful meaning of
| that word there is, I cannot for the life of me
| understand why the invariant that Linux cannot actually
| be promoted on the desktop without tearing down Windows
| to do so.
| cowtools wrote:
| >Windows meets them all the way. Not having to deal with
| LSB, Glibc, different distros, etc.
|
| Windows doesn't do shit besides stand there.
|
| >Why does every pro-Linux statement devolve into an anti-
| Windows statement the moment it meets resistance.
|
| I'm not sure what you mean by this. Imagine I build a
| robot that does your job faster than you, better than
| you, more reliably than you, and I distribute it for
| free. One small issue though: it only speaks French. Are
| you really going to suggest that in a sane market, you
| would stand a chance against this robot?
|
| You have to conclude that a market in which windows
| defeats linux is irrational. If windows did not wield
| its' reverse compatibility and did not have anti-
| competitive dealings with manufacturers, it would just be
| another corpse in the pile of defeated unixes (solaris,
| etc.).
|
| Microsoft has a unique market position due to its
| business relationships. That's no attribute of the
| windows operating system, and it is an advantage that can
| slowly erode over time. My problem is that you're
| asserting that there's some characteristic of the windows
| operating system that is superior. Reverse-compatibility
| is a anti-feature, It's just not obvious in the short-
| term.
| BoorishBears wrote:
| > Are you really going to suggest that in a sane market,
| you would stand a chance against this robot?
|
| Yes! Because if no one speaks French, and it's not so
| much better that _people are suddenly willing to learn
| French_ , then no one will want to use it!
|
| And Linux is not some vision of perfection either, there
| are still warts around the quality and polish of
| userspace applications compared to Windows, so meeting
| the incredibly high bar of "throw out your entire method
| of thinking for this" is nearly impossible.
|
| You've just perfectly summed up why "the year of the
| Linux Desktop" has been coming up for nearly 2 decades
| now.
| stonogo wrote:
| My experience with installing Windows in 2006 was being
| presented with a 1-800 number I had to call, so that I
| could read off a massive hex string and type in an endless
| series of call-and-response codes. That was AFTER having to
| dig out a floppy drive -- in 2006 -- because Microsoft
| couldn't be bothered to update their installation media
| with SATA drivers.
|
| Once that was done I was faced with a nearly-driverless
| machine, followed by several hours of shuttling .msi files
| in via USB drive (including a four hundred megabyte printer
| driver?!), capped off with a four- to six-hour Windows
| Update marathon, during which my computer rebooted at
| random.
|
| Installing Windows was what made me investigate Linux in
| the first place. Since then I have found peace with Apple
| products, but I seriously think you're looking at Windows
| of old with some rose-tinted glasses.
| rascul wrote:
| > It took Linux desktop some 20 years to reach the point where
| you could just use it i.e., no tinkering needed, everything
| works by default, you install the software you need and that's
| it.
|
| Only took about 5 years for me. And that's probably only
| because I didn't know about it until '96.
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| I have not used Librem, but I own a Pinephone. Anecdotally,
| while the initial impression of community edition was not great
| ( I personally blame ubuntu as default OS ), I eventually tried
| PostmarketOS ( on HN recommendation actually ) and I am now
| going through side by side testing with my work phone as a
| backup.
|
| For basic stuff ( phone, text, light net use ) it works. It is
| not polished. It is very much underpowered.. but there is
| something to be said for having that level of control over a
| machine. I think I agree with you; it will take take time the
| same way it did with desktop linux. Still, I am more optimistic
| now.. we are starting to have real options outside of the
| duopoly forced down humanity's throats.
|
| And.. even if you are not ready to jump onto new hardware, you
| can install Kali linux in Android now[1].
|
| [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxOGyuGq0Ts
| squarefoot wrote:
| > you can install Kali linux in Android now
|
| This solves some problems (running Linux UI and apps) but
| leaves some very important others unaddressed (security). The
| point isn't just installing Linux but also removing from
| devices every piece of non free -as in not open, therefore
| non auditable and by extension not trustworthy- piece of
| firmware/OS/software. The hardest part is achieving that goal
| and many initiatives are struggling to get as close as
| possible to that point. As a Linux guy, I would love being
| able to turn a spyware ridden phone into a 100% open Linux
| platform, but if someone said like that it can be done, but
| they're using *BSD, or Haiku, or whatewer 100% open OS out
| there, that would be great anyway.
| stuaxo wrote:
| Naming is always funny, not sure I would have chosen a project
| name so close to "Prison"
| tildef wrote:
| I don't think Prizren is part of any project name--it just
| happened to be where DebConf was hosted this year. Unless
| you're referring to Purism.
| ardit33 wrote:
| Anybody reading this, Prizren is a very beautiful historical
| town/city. It has some really nice old architecture, plus a
| castle, and there is plenty to explore around the area. It has a
| lot of old school Albanian gold and silver shops, that do some
| really interesting/old style jewelry, as back in the Ottoman era
| used to be an important stop for merchants.
| throwaway81523 wrote:
| Phone is a Librem 5 in case that was what you wanted to know.
| wiz21c wrote:
| Just checked the price : 1299$ ouch, that's really expensive...
| TylerE wrote:
| Especially for performance inline with a low-end Android a
| carrier will give you for free.
| shepherdjerred wrote:
| How much harder is it to own one of these phones vs an iPhone? I
| loved hacking on my smartphone when I was in high school, but now
| I'd like something that just works (or at least requires only a
| small amount of effort).
|
| I'd really like a barebones phone that has only the bare
| essentials, ideally not even a web browser.
| em-bee wrote:
| it really depends on how you use it. i had non-android phones
| before. (even openmoko). calling, sms, taking notes. those
| phones had less apps, but they worked. so the question of "how
| much harder" is really a question of "what apps to you need".
| today i am on android (/e/) because there are a few android
| apps that are absolutely essential for me now. but if i didn't
| need those specific apps, then any other system would be just
| fine.
| woodrowbarlow wrote:
| if free software is not your motivator, consider the light
| phone 2. it's a b&w e-ink phone that does 4g LTE
| calls/sms/hotspot, with apps for gps navigation and podcasts.
| fossuser wrote:
| The Punkt also has Signal:
| https://www.punkt.ch/en/products/mp02-4g-mobile-phone/
|
| I think these are neat, but have an iPhone 13 Mini because
| it's hard to beat Apple's quality and privacy work.
| flipnotic wrote:
| I'm building a barebones phone like you describe, and am
| looking for feedback from people. Mind if I get in contact?
| chrisseaton wrote:
| People used to say they wanted a phone that just did the basics
| - calling, SMS. The thing is... are those the basics now? I
| almost never make phone calls and I think I've literally never
| sent an SMS on my current phone. The basics now are the apps -
| Signal, WhatsApp, Twitter and Instagram DMs, etc. I think
| that's typical for most people?
| sethhochberg wrote:
| They're probably not defined as basics based on how
| frequently people use them compared to apps, but, phone and
| SMS are still the lowest common denominator.
|
| I've been dealing with the police recently after a minor
| burglary. That involved both making and receiving phone
| calls.
|
| My dentist has an automated system that texts to confirm
| appointments.
|
| Despite its downsides, SMS-based 2FA is ubiquitous and you
| don't always have ability to opt into something more secure.
|
| I'd expect most people elect to use apps for communication
| when they've got an option, but there are tons of scenarios
| in modern life where you really don't have the option.
| at-fates-hands wrote:
| I think it could be a generational thing.
|
| My nephew who's 26, runs a pool company. He said he barely
| makes any phone calls and most of his appointments and
| interactions with clients and friends are all mainly done
| through texting. The only social media he uses is Instagram.
|
| My daughter is 15. She still uses the phone extensively for
| conferencing her friends when playing online games. She's
| uses the iphone Facetime extensively as well if she's not
| playing online games. Most of her friends do little texting
| and actually do call each other much more frequently and for
| much longer periods of time. Not unusual for her to be on the
| phone with one of her online buddies living in Florida for a
| few hours. Their conversations frequently revolve around
| videos they share or shows they're watching. They all have
| Apple devices and I've been surprised at the multiple
| different ways they're utilizing the phone feature on their
| devices in ways I never imagined.
|
| Now me? I'm in my early 40's, my parents are their 70's and
| they're using the texting feature a lot more nowadays. My Mom
| and Dad both still prefer to use the phone, but my Dad's
| hearing is starting to become an issue, so texting allows him
| to have really good conversations without fear of losing out
| on anything. Myself, I still use the phone quite a bit,
| texting seems to to be tapering off in favor of email and
| phone calls with my friends and freelance clients which I
| never thought would happen.
|
| I really thought the same thing, that the phone part of your
| device was quickly becoming obsolete. I've been surprised
| with my daughter's generation who are finding new ways to
| utilize the feature and combine with the other things her and
| friends love most - online gaming, sharing videos, sharing
| and discussing their favorite topics of conversation.
| piperswe wrote:
| IMO Facetime is closer to being an app feature than being a
| phone feature - it isn't standardized, interoperable, or
| omnipresent the way phone calls and SMS are
| aquaduck wrote:
| It seems that different people have vastly different use
| cases for phones.
|
| I don't use any of those apps, and if I did, I'd prefer a
| larger screen and physical keyboard. My phone is for calling,
| SMS, navigation, and notifying me of new emails (never for
| actually replying though!).
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