[HN Gopher] The Merge is approaching, and comes with changes to ... ___________________________________________________________________ The Merge is approaching, and comes with changes to Ethereum Author : kristianpaul Score : 77 points Date : 2022-08-20 20:51 UTC (2 hours ago) (HTM) web link (ethereum.org) (TXT) w3m dump (ethereum.org) | fizzynut wrote: | Given that the merge reduces the electricity cost for new | Ethereum by ~1000x, won't the price just tank in a race to the | bottom? | candiddevmike wrote: | In theory the price of any cryptocurrency is close to $0 as | they are all fundamentally swappable, especially when used as a | means of moving fiat between two parties. | whatshisface wrote: | The supply of ETH is only related to electricity when it's | possible to mine it with electricity. Otherwise, what keeps the | price of crypto up is people competing to get currency for uses | like remittance. Since sending money to another country using a | cryptocurrency ties up an amount of currency for a period of | time, users have to compete for the available tokens in order | to exchange with them. | fizzynut wrote: | That's my point though, after the merge the proof of stake | nodes are earning a lot of ETH for a fraction of the previous | cost, the only way price should stay stable is if everyone | with a stake agrees not to undercut each other. | whatshisface wrote: | > _earning a lot of ETH for a fraction of the previous | cost_ | | That will only be true if mining is a significant | contributor to the availability of ETH. Instead, I think | that most ETH comes from sellers of existing tokens rather | than miners. | hackernudes wrote: | Is someone out there buying ETH because of the power that went | in to mining it? It's more about supply and demand, I think. | The supply of ETH does change after the merge, but from what I | understand there will be less generated than before. | | All the tokens and contracts that use Ethereum will still need | to pay gas fees and now instead of miners earning ETH, stakers | will. | fizzynut wrote: | Those with a "stake" of ETH will be gaining $xxxx of ETH for | a cost of $x, so why would you not sell for a giant profit? | latchkey wrote: | Taxes | datalopers wrote: | This seems plausible as the prices historically for both eth | and btc have followed the cost to mine. A significant portion | of the crypto world is directly propped up by miners in an | effort to drum up demand. | | Things will change monumentally so it'll be very interesting to | see what does happen. | seydor wrote: | aqme28 wrote: | What are you talking about? | WFHRenaissance wrote: | Acronym could be better, but not sure what the rest of your | comment is getting at. | WFHRenaissance wrote: | Ethereum in its current state is using proof-of-work (PoW) to | ensure consensus amongst the thousands of nodes in the network. | While PoW is reliable and secure, it is also extremely energy | intensive. To produce each block on the network participants are | required to use powerful and energy-hungry GPUs to solve a | complex mathematical problem. | | Alternatively, proof-of-stake (PoS) guarantees the security of | the network in a different way. In PoS, anyone with 32 ETH can | deposit that ETH to become a validator, a node that participates | in the network's consensus algorithm. Finalizing a block requires | 2/3 of all active validators to sign off on it. Should a | malicious actor try to tamper with the underlying protocol by | using a large number of validators to revert a finalized block | (the equivalent of a "51% attack" in PoW) their funds are slashed | -- meaning they lose a portion of their staked ETH. This makes | attacks extremely expensive; it would be like a PoW system where | if you use your mining hardware to attack the network then your | hardware catches fire and is destroyed. | | PoS does not require the same energy-intensive hardware as PoW. | Any relatively recent consumer hardware should be capable of | running the software required to operate a 32 ETH staking node. | If you deposit more than 32 ETH, you will be assigned multiple | "validator slots" by the protocol, but you will still be able to | run them from a single computer, though hardware requirements go | up the more you stake. Most estimates put the expected energy | savings from the switch to PoS to be around 99%. | | If you have any additional questions please let me know! | sprkwd wrote: | I'm literally an idiot. Make this sense for me. | alchemist1e9 wrote: | > If you deposit more than 32 ETH, you will be assigned | multiple "validator slots" by the protocol, but you will still | be able to run them from a single computer, though hardware | requirements go up the more you stake. | | Is there a good place to read more about this hardware | requirements as a function of validator slots? A concern in my | mind with PoS is what is the incentive to expand the physical | hardware footprint of the network. I understand this implies | more energy usage, however it is a requirement for a | decentralized, distributed, and resilient system, otherwise it | can very easily be physically attacked if the footprint becomes | overly concentrated with a few very powerful nodes. | | Unless the hardware requirements are a convex function of total | staked then if me and you both want to stake we will see the | hardware and network/bandwidth costs as something we could | share, which if everyone calculates the same, the network will | physically shrink. | pa7x1 wrote: | The HW requirements increase very very minimally. | | See this response on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/ethstak | er/comments/nk9qzt/multiple_... | mondoveneziano wrote: | > required to use powerful and energy-hungry GPUs to solve a | complex mathematical problem. | | No mathematical problem is getting "solved". | | It is much more akin to playing the lottery: Entirely random | numbers are being tried out, by sending them through an energy- | intensive algorithm (being energy-intensive is the algorithm's | only purpose in proof-of-work), until what comes out is less | than another number. That other number is chosen according to | the desired "difficulty", it has no significance beyond that. | | The algorithm is literally meant to spend energy, i.e. the | outcome of the computation has no meaning by itself. This also | means that proof-of-work cryptocurrencies _actively counteract_ | any advances to make the computation more efficient: The | "difficulty" will just be adjusted up until the efficiency gain | is canceled out. Proof-of-work cryptocurrencies are inefficient | by design. | Banana699 wrote: | This is a lot of words to say that PoW involves an inverse- | hash problem being solved. Inverse-hash is a mathematical | problem. Finding the nonce is solving it. | mondoveneziano wrote: | I was explaining in layman's terms. | khazhoux wrote: | Layman's explanation: POW works by solving a complex | mathematical problem. :-) | WFHRenaissance wrote: | Eh, a mathematical puzzle is being solved via brute-force. My | intent was to explain briefly that the problem/puzzle is by | nature computationally-intensive to the extent that brute- | force is the most efficient way to solve/complete it. | wavefunction wrote: | I am sure staking pools will be available to people with less | than 32 ETH | 1123581321 wrote: | They are, and there seems to be a drive by legitimate actors | to build them up. For example, Coinbase is building theirs by | offering up to $50 ($10 every $100 worth) in exchange for | initial staking of Eth. | fullsend wrote: | They already are. The Merge refers to the fact that the PoS | chain has been running parallel to the main chain for one | year now. It has been thoroughly tested live and so now will | be merged back into the main chain like a branch of a git | repo. | p4bl0 wrote: | How can two chains be merged if one is a fork of the other | without having instances of double spending? With source | code in Git you can manually pick which version of each | line you want in the merged result, but here it's not | possible to do that if services or merch have been | exchanged with coins. Except if you're fine with having to | deal forever with coins and merged-from-the-fork coins on | the eth blockchain? | mcmeowerson wrote: | As far as I understand it both forks have the same | ledger, its only the transaction validation method thats | changing. The PoS fork is mirroring all of the PoW | transactions so no double spending or extra coins. | dsimmons wrote: | Some of the better known ones are Lido and RocketPool. | uncletammy wrote: | Care to objectively articulate the arguments against switching | to proof-of-stake? Why is it controversial? | rglullis wrote: | It's only controversial in the minds of purists/"maximalists" | who are too invested in BTC. Their arguments would be | something like: | | - PoS is not "decentralized" nor "democratic", because it | means that only those with capital can participate in the | network consensus building. This is "technically correct", | but (a) it ignores that existing PoW also require _massive_ | amounts of capital to deploy mining facilities and (b) it is | not democratic because only those with access to cheap | electricity will profit from being a miner. | | - PoS implies that those staking their crypto are "investing" | with their tokens, which would make the token a "security" | and not a "currency". This distinction could make it easy for | the SEC and governments to intervene and create regulation | that would require stakers to only participate if they | implement changes at the protocol level. E.g, it could happen | that a staker would reject to validate any block containing | transactions to smart contracts that got sanctioned. This is | a more real concern, if you think about all the big players | (read, centralized exchanges) who are staking ETH on behalf | of their customers and therefore will have non-negligible | control over the network. In this case, the community | expectation is that (a) users of staked ETH pull out of the | exchanges and run their own validators and (b) the exchanges | realize that they will be shooting themselves in the foot, | and therefore go on to fight whatever legislation that pushes | on that type of control/censorship at the protocol level. | rakoo wrote: | Thanks for the explanation! I have a few questions: | | - how does the punishment work ? Do all nodes see that a | malicious actor changed the chain and write the bad ideas in | some ledger meaning "these nodes just lost X ETH" ? | | - But if the malicious actor owns 2/3 of validators, what does | he care what other nodes do ? They effectively control what | block is accepted | | - is there an advantage to run more than one validator, if you | have the money (EDIT: and you don't want to attack the | network)? Basically, does having more money gives you more | (power, control, anything) ? | WFHRenaissance wrote: | 1. Punishment mechanisms here are kind of complicated, but in | short, you're punished for mainly 2 reasons: being an offline | validator, or for an attestation violating. | | Slashers are entities that enforce the two above rules. If a | slasher determines that you're node is down, or that you're | committing an attestation violation (i.e. that you're signing | more than one attestation in a given epoch mainly). The | slasher actually does not get rewarded here. The block | proposer who takes the broadcasted slashing and and adds a | proof of it to their block proposition, and get what's called | a whistleblower reward. Slashing is not meant to profitable, | and the whistleblower reward is quite small. We don't need a | million slashers, in fact, we could operate with just one... | expect the Eth Foundation to run them, among other large | players who can spare the resources. | | Owning 2/3 of nodes economically is kind of silly. You | essentially just 51% the network, and everyone else leaves. | You're then stuck with a worthless personal currency. Have | fun! | | More than one validator means more validator rewards, and a | bit more "power" in that you're a larger component of the | general validation network. | entrep wrote: | > - But if the malicious actor owns 2/3 of validators, what | does he care what other nodes do ? They effectively control | what block is accepted | | As I understand it, anyone who owns that amount of ETH would | probably be interested in contributing to the trust of the | Ethereum blockchain. | boosteri wrote: | Why would it need to be a significant amount of ETH? Could | someone coordinate an attack on validator nodes, making | themselves 67%+ temporarily? | yunohn wrote: | Sure, but that wasn't the question. How does the punishment | play out, assuming they're acting in bad faith? | rglullis wrote: | If you have 2/3 of the validators, there is no way that | you can be punished. You will effectively be able to | produce the blocks and tell the network that they are | valid. | | If you don't have that, the most that you can do is to | attack the network by proposing bad blocks to slow down | block production. Anytime that a (selected) validator | proposes a bad block, the other validators that catch | your mistake will snitch on you (through attestations) | and the validator will get their stake funds slashed. The | more your funds are slashed, the less of a chance you | will have to be proposing new blocks in the future. | falcolas wrote: | What reason would anyone have to believe in their | benevolence? It would be safer to believe in and use their | greed and self preservation. | WFHRenaissance wrote: | No one would use a network with this level of | centralization, or at least, it would be unwise to. | bluquark wrote: | This reminds me of the nerve-biting period up to the James Webb | launch. The devs put off this transition for so many years trying | to plan for every contingency, but we still can't be certain they | didn't miss a crucial flaw. | | In a system where the only thing holding back malicious actors is | technical constraints, it only takes one bug or one misaligned | incentive for a vicious cycle to take down the entire Ethereum | ecosystem. An exploitable detail in the PRNG used to select the | validators, for instance. | | And like a space telescope, there is no opportunity to | realistically experiment with the change beforehand, nor an easy | way to make adjustments after launch. | latchkey wrote: | It is order of magnitude easier for them to make changes after | launch since the code and developers are here on earth and not | floating in space. | sktrdie wrote: | I don't get proof of stake. What's stopping anyone from | presenting a new chain made up of thousands of fake transactions? | And why wouldn't such chain be accepted by the network? Is it | just "checkpoints" hardcoded in the software that don't allow | this? | pkulak wrote: | Nothing. But nothing moves forward without consensus. So you'd | need 51% of the network to agree with your made up chain, which | would mean controlling about $100 billion in Eth. And then | you've managed to destroy a network that you have $100 billion | wrapped up in... so, good job? And if you try with less than | 51% and the rest of the network slaps you down, you lose your | stake (or some portion of it). | bhaak wrote: | All the nodes that have been online long enough will know that | the fake chain is fake. Because it doesn't match the state that | they have been observing all along. | | So as long as you have no extended downtime, your nodes know | what the right chain has to look like. Ethereum dynamically | adds checkpoints so that block reorgs can't reach too far into | the past but that is mostly a convenience function as it alone | couldn't solve this issue. | | Now, there is a problem if you are a new participant. Then you | can't decide which chain is the right one. You could observe | for a while and choose the one that has more validators but in | theory, there's the possibility that there's a contentious hard | fork going on. | | In this case you need to get the information which chain is the | right one from outside sources. E.g. like your preferred | exchange or the official subreddit. | | This is the most glaring difference between POS and POW. With | POW, you don't need any outside information as you can just | verify which chain needed more work to be created and this is | by definition the correct one. | | POW leverages physics to be completely self contained for the | price of energy consumption. | samkon wrote: | Any node that did this would have their stake slashed by the | rest of the network, because it would be easy to prove that the | chain was invalid. The network finalizes the blocks that are | added to the chain, there are no deep chain reorgs like in | bitcoin - so any significant alternate history is easily | identified. | whoooooo123 wrote: | It's bullshit: https://yanmaani.github.io/proof-of-stake-is-a- | scam-and-the-... | 6c737133 wrote: | A magnificently misinformed waste of bytes. Thanks for | sharing. | clord wrote: | Say I have a few GPUs churning but my payout date is late 2022. | Should I just give up now? | falcolas wrote: | Poor miners. | | /s | TakeBlaster16 wrote: | I can't tell you how much I enjoy refreshing these crypto | threads. Comments are turning from black to gray to black again | like I'm at a disco. | cowtools wrote: | Something I like about HN is that down-voted posts will often | come back from the grave. For some reason voters have a lot | of sympathy. | | Back on reddit, people use votes as a way to signal to each | other what to believe in: instinctively, you upvote popular | comments and downvote unpopular comments. It's really the | first few voters that decide what people see. | orliesaurus wrote: | Curious: will it be more energy efficient? | y42 wrote: | Quote | | The Merge will reduce Ethereum's energy consumption by ~99.95%. | swarnie wrote: | Does the merge come with any real world benefits? Besides now | not needing the yearly power consumption of Belgium. | | Like... Can i buy bread and milk with this thing any time | soon? | TakeBlaster16 wrote: | From TFA: | | > Misconception: "The Merge will reduce gas fees." | | > False. The Merge is a change of consensus mechanism, not | an expansion of network capacity, and will not result in | lower gas fees. | | > Misconception: "Transactions will be noticeably faster | after The Merge." | | > False. Though some slight changes exist, transaction | speed will mostly remain the same on layer 1. | brian-armstrong wrote: | No. It's still a cryptocurrency. | timbit42 wrote: | The only benefit of the merge is energy consumption will be | reduced to about 1/1000th what it is now. | jmathai wrote: | Multitudes of miners will no longer race to find the next | computationally expensive hash. Proof of Stake does address | the energy concerns of crypto. | [deleted] | latchkey wrote: | GPU based mining of ETH will turn off, literally, in 15s (one | block). But the thing is, it will just move to other coins, for | now. Once those are not as profitable, things will rebalance as | people shut off their GPUs. | | Future, ETH will grow with power requirements too... just a lot | more slowly... ASICs for zero knowledge are coming, which will | create a bit of an energy race. Staking will always be | increasing... which will require compute and power. | | At the end of the day, overall, the existing power usage won't | actually go away... it will just get moved to other things. | Always remember that power companies are incentivized to sell | their power to the highest bidder... | zaptrem wrote: | Can you give more info about Zero Knowledge Proofs would | require ASICS? | latchkey wrote: | https://vitalik.eth.limo/general/2022/08/04/zkevm.html | | "Type 1 aims to replicate Ethereum exactly, and so it has | no way of mitigating these inefficiencies. At present, | proofs for Ethereum blocks take many hours to produce. This | can be mitigated either by clever engineering to massively | parallelize the prover or in the longer term by ZK-SNARK | ASICs." | | ... | | "Personally, my hope is that everything becomes Type 1 over | time, through a combination of improvements in ZK-EVMs and | improvements to Ethereum itself to make it more ZK-SNARK- | friendly." | Tao3300 wrote: | > As we approach The Merge of Ethereum Mainnet, you should be on | high alert for scams trying to take advantage of users during | this transition. Do not send your ETH anywhere in an attempt to | "upgrade to ETH2." There is no "ETH2" token, and there is nothing | more you need to do for your funds to remain safe. | | Yeah... this is going to be a shitshow. Who wants to set the | over/under on $millions that get stolen? Which exchange or fund | will lose a vast chunk of its holdings? | X6S1x6Okd1st wrote: | > Who wants to set the over/under on $millions that get stolen? | | If you can think of a way to measure it metaculus would be | interested properly. | | > Which exchange or fund will lose a vast chunk of its | holdings? | | I'd place this at roughly at 0.01% chance for any major | exchange or fund | [deleted] | ben_jones wrote: | > I'd place this at roughly at 0.01% chance for any major | exchange or fund | | Over 0.01% of major exchanges and funds have been hacked or | scammed _this month_. | numlock86 wrote: | > The Merge will reduce Ethereum's energy consumption by ~99.95%. | | That's something Bitcoin needs ... or even better get rid of it | altogether. | | https://ccaf.io/cbeci/index | | https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption/ | smashem wrote: | End the FUD https://endthefud.org/ | numlock86 wrote: | > The delusional shitcoiner's funny compilation | | Yeah, thanks for reminding me. We all had out good laugh at | that site at some point. | BolexNOLA wrote: | I really enjoyed mousing over each link and looking at the | sources. | [deleted] | X6S1x6Okd1st wrote: | I believe that after the block size wars that resulted in | Bitcoin cash and bitcoin (the chain that chose the path of no | change) the bitcoin community ossified into a community that is | actively resistant towards changes, and bitcoin cash is much | smaller and suffered from many subsequent forks. | | Without significant outside force bitcoin will not change to | proof of stake, they are currently framing proof of stake as | useless and insecure, IMO because of motivated reasoning from | the stance that bitcoin is perfect, therefore any deviation | from what bitcoin has is a mistake. | paulpauper wrote: | _That 's something Bitcoin needs ... or even better get rid of | it altogether._ | | As the price keeps falling, presumably so will energy | consumption. The energy consumption problem fixes itself as the | bubble bursts and people lose interest and mining becomes | unprofitable, without the need for regulation. | cowtools wrote: | If the price continues to fall, the bitcoin network will | become susceptible to 51% and selfish-mining attacks. | dragontamer wrote: | The hardware to perform PoW already exists. All someone needs | to do for a 51% attack is buy up the old mining hardware that | is being sold for so cheap. | | Every "bust" period for BTC comes with the risk of a 51% | attack / centralization. | | If the difficulty falls by 90% because 90% of miners were | shut off, you only need to buy 5.6% of those thrown-away | miners to cause a 51% attack on BTC. | icoder wrote: | Assuminge no one buys up any of the other 94.4% | dragontamer wrote: | It doesn't matter if they buy it or not. If they're | waiting for profitability, they won't turn those machines | on. Or do you think people will spend $100 on electricity | to mine $10 of BTC just to keep the security of the token | high? | | A hypothetical 51% attacker isn't doing it for profits, | they're doing it for some other reason. Whatever that | reason is, the 51% attack gets cheaper-and-cheaper each | time these "bust" cycles happen. | wyager wrote: | Proof of work is the only way to get acceptable security | properties for a monetary system. Proof of stake suffers from | the "nothing at stake" problem, leading to grinding attacks | etc. | Victerius wrote: | > Proof of work is the only way to get acceptable security | properties for a monetary system. | | Every country's financial system: ahem. | | The U.S. dollar doesn't require giant energy-hungry server | farms to be secure. | cowtools wrote: | The U.S. dollar is backed by a military many times more | energy intensive. | Victerius wrote: | What? | Macha wrote: | So if the us replaced the dollar with Bitcoin they could | eliminate or downsize their military? | | Doubtful | novantadue wrote: | We wouldn't have to overthrow mid-east dictators every | time they threaten to price oil in Euros -- but obviously | this wouldn't help much because we'd still need to | maintain superpower status or risk losing the world | order. | cowtools wrote: | I agree with the point you are making here. I just think | that Proof-of-Work is usually a better choice for a | cryptocurrency than Proof-of-Stake. | | Conventional currencies (notably the US Dollar) are also | backed by signifigant military (and thus electrical) | power. I would posit that Fiat currencies are nessisary | in some sense, but not that they are more efficient to | maintain than cryptocurrencies. Cryptocurrencies tend to | piggyback on the infrastructure and economy that are | built on fiat (e.g. The internet). | jcranmer wrote: | Fiat currency is not backed by military power. Note that | there exist several countries without militaries, and | none of those countries have worthless currencies. And | there have existed countries that put significant | investment into their military and still wound up with a | worthless currency at the end. | cowtools wrote: | Those countries exist as client states to countries with | militaries. | | Yes, the militatary spending is nessisary but not | sufficient to sustain a currency. | smashem wrote: | You really believe that the USD, as the world's reserve | currency, doesn't require its military to keep it that | way. | jcranmer wrote: | Yes, I do, actually. | | The US economy is the world's largest economy in gross | value, is the largest or one of the largest trade | partners of much of the world, and has very limited | policies on capital control or other monetary | restrictions. This means that there is going to be more | depth on trading pairs via USD and even small currencies | than you would likely have with other countries, you | would have very little counterparty risk holding USD, and | much trade will end up being denominated in USD anyways. | So you'd be a _bloody fool_ not to hold USD. | | Magically blinking away the US military would not change | any of the above consideration one iota. | | So let me flip the question around: why do _you_ believe | that the US military is essential to its role as a major | reserve currency? | alfiedotwtf wrote: | > Magically blinking away the US military would not | change any of the above consideration one iota. | | Let's flip the question around: what happens when oil | producing countries try to sell in non-USD? _US military | has entered the chat_ | jcranmer wrote: | Answer: nothing. No country has been invaded by the US | military, or any other military for that matter, after | selling, or even attempting to sell, oil in non-USD. Not | Russia, not Iran, not Venezuela, not Iraq, not Libya, | none of them. | | (And I include the last few because there's no evidence | they even attempted to sell oil in non-US currencies.) | _Algernon_ wrote: | Granted, it is not a server farm, but the US military isn't | exactly carbon neutral. | smashem wrote: | There are server farms within the military, so by proxy, | the USD does require server farms. Then the private | financial institutions have server farms. | hapticmonkey wrote: | Does the army and law enforcement not use energy? | | Do banks not have server farms? | Victerius wrote: | Okay, back up a little. Crypto miners mine crypto in | order to become rich. With national currencies, this is | impossible. Citizens cannot create their own currency, | and that's a good thing. If money could be easily forged, | it would either be worthless, or a speculative | instrument, like every crypto in existence. National | governments are the source and the only legal creators of | money. | | Crypto mining also makes the blockchain secure. What this | means is that a malicious individual cannot, say, | transfer crypto from another person's wallet to his own, | or alter the software algorithm that controls the | creation of the cryptocurrency. | | Proof of work cryptocurrencies require miners to expend | an enormous quantity of energy in order to prevent | problems that national currencies don't have in the first | place. Cryptocurrencies have no advantage over national | currencies except for anonymous online transactions. | smashem wrote: | > National governments are the source and the only legal | creators of money. | | And those closest to the money printer benefit. And hint, | the average joe is furthest from the printer. The future | of the average joe is stolen via currency debasement and | inflation, but those closest to the printer get richer. | jcranmer wrote: | How would moving to cryptocurrency reduce the need of | energy for military and law enforcement, or the need for | server farms in banks? | samkon wrote: | Securing private keys is much cheaper than securing | physical property. | nightski wrote: | I don't think that was the point. The point was that you | can't have security without energy expenditure. | smashem wrote: | True, the USD just requires violence and cohersion. | Loveaway wrote: | Fiat currencies are backed by huge financial sectors. If | all you need are numbers in a database, what are all those | towers in NY for? | wyager wrote: | Are you familiar with petrodollar warfare? It consumes a | lot more energy and resources than bitcoin. | osigurdson wrote: | Good discussion on the topic below (~10 minutes). | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-_CuPtzoDU | repomies69 wrote: | Bitcoin is never going to change from PoW... That's the point | of the system, Bitcoin is unchangable, unlike Ethereum. | | But you are free to create your own PoS cryptocurrency. If some | PoS system offers the same security features as Bitcoin, people | will just switch from Bitcoin to that. | simonebrunozzi wrote: | Bitcoin has changed in the past. The block size, for example, | is something that was modified a few years ago. | | See also the "block size controversy" [0] | | [0]: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_size_limit_controversy | lapser wrote: | Bitcoin is still software. Software can change. It's the | people who refuse to change it | MBCook wrote: | A huge chunk of the miners fought tooth-and-nail to not | increase the maximum block size. The chance of them | agreeing to something like this seems very low indeed. | earnesti wrote: | Yes, other way to put it is that the incentives for the | software are designed in a way which makes certain changes | extremely unlikely. However some changes are happening all | the time (features added via a soft fork) | konschubert wrote: | Bitcoin will either die or will eventually have much higher | transaction fees compared to Ethereum. Because somebody's | gotta pay that power bill. | | Maybe that won't matter, but I hope it will. | | https://www.konstantinschubert.com/2018/11/28/proof-of- | stake... | [deleted] | simias wrote: | Security is not the main reason for Bitcoin's success within | the cryptocurrency scene, it's that it's the first and most | recognizable name. But because its creator is AWOL it's | incredibly difficult to push for any fundamental change to | the protocol without creating huge divisions and probably a | very controversial fork (of which there already have been a | few). Unless Satoshi themselves decides to make a comeback, I | don't think it'll ever happen. | | People are not using Bitcoin because it's the most advanced | or secure cryptocurrency, they use bitcoin because it was the | first and will probably be the last to go whenever that whole | flaming garbage bag of a "technology" hits the bin. | encryptluks2 wrote: | How are gas fees going to be calculated, and how do you plan to | control spamming the network similar to what you see with Solana? | 0x64 wrote: | Block times become exactly 12 seconds, that's it. Nothing else | changes: it's the same Ethereum, just greener and very slightly | faster! | dsimmons wrote: | Gas fees don't materially change under Proof of Stake. It's a | common misconception that The Merge reduces fees (it does not). | encryptluks2 wrote: | So what is the point of high fees under proof of stake? | Before it was to reward the miners. Who exactly is being | rewarded high fees once it changes and for what purpose? | ur-whale wrote: | Time to short NVidia | dsimmons wrote: | In the short-term, it's likely already priced in: folks have | known this is coming for a while, and especially over the past | 2-3 months where it became "real" versus "coming soon". | | Longer term, there may be uses for GPUs when it comes to zero- | knowledge proofs (think: expensive to produce, easy to verify), | but we still have a ways to go in that department. | charcircuit wrote: | Quote from the blog linked: | | >The target date is September 15, 2022, but this estimate might | have even a week of error. | dsimmons wrote: | It depends on a host of factors, so it's hard to predict | exactly. | | As an example: it depends on the rate at which existing Proof | of Work miners move the chain forward. We can make an estimated | guess based on the current hash rate, but miners may begin to | drop off early and try to "beat the rush" to sell their used | hardware before everyone else, so the hash rate could drop more | than anticipated. | 0x64 wrote: | The current estimate for the upgrade can be found at [1]. It's | not a regular upgrade that happens at a specific block height, | hence the variance. Instead, the consensus is flipped over from | PoW to PoS at a specific total difficulty, also known as mining | difficulty. One of the reasons is to avoid miner attacks around | the merge event. | | [1] https://bordel.wtf/ ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-08-20 23:00 UTC)