[HN Gopher] Got a rejection for mentioning Apple pre-release sof... ___________________________________________________________________ Got a rejection for mentioning Apple pre-release software, but I am not Author : tosh Score : 184 points Date : 2022-08-21 18:13 UTC (4 hours ago) (HTM) web link (twitter.com) (TXT) w3m dump (twitter.com) | ezoe wrote: | So the follower of Apple are living in literally a Paranoia TRPG | world? | | "Good morning-cycle citizen. Your publication contains REDACTED | which you have to remove because you are not allowed to mention | it in your security clearance. Good day-cycle." | [deleted] | michelb wrote: | Maybe there are two teams at Apple both working on a different | feature with the same name but they never know because they still | can't talk to eachother about it? ;) | saagarjha wrote: | "Fun fact": mentioning pre-release software is actually very much | allowed by the App Store guidelines, and has been for several | years. The App Store reviewers themselves have failed to keep up | with the developer program license agreement changing and | removing the "you can't talk about beta software" bit. As an app | developer it's hilarious that we have to keep better track of | that agreement than they are willing to but sadly kind of | expected at this point. | CharlesW wrote: | > _"Fun fact": mentioning pre-release software is actually very | much allowed by the App Store guidelines, and has been for | several years._ | | FWIW, I'm reading the App Store guidelines now and can't find | anything to support this. I must be missing it. What section | are you thinking of? | saagarjha wrote: | It's not the guidelines specifically, beyond the fact that | you must follow the developer program agreement, which is the | actual thing they'll ding you for. See this thread for sample | rejection verbiage and why it is invalid: | https://twitter.com/_saagarjha/status/1438603898999083028 | vogt wrote: | Why is Apple so hard on small developers with incredible scrutiny | on releases and sometimes seemingly arbitrary eval criteria, and | Tik Tok can run rampant with a keylogger injected with | JavaScript? Genuinely asking in good faith here as this is way | out of my domain of expertise. I worked as a UI/UX designer for a | company that shipped iOS and Android games exclusively and they | (Apple App Store reviewers) were always hard on us for every | little thing we published. But it seems like the major social | apps have some seriously invasive tech bundled in and I have to | imagine if JoeBlowApp LLC wanted to ship an app with the level of | data collection that Tik Tok has, they'd get reamed by Apple, no? | Fuzzwah wrote: | As with most things, "because money" | vogt wrote: | I had a hunch that may have been the case but I was hoping it | wasn't that simple. | aaronmcs wrote: | Money | gnicholas wrote: | > _I literally haven't changed the text in my marketing | description in many months._ | | After 5 years in the App Store, and having my app featured in the | Accessibility section, we were flagged for a characteristic that | had remained unchanged since launch. In almost every case, our | rejections were not related to newly-added features. | altairprime wrote: | > _In almost every case_ | | What were the exception(s)? | googlryas wrote: | When this happens, I assume a shady competitor kept flagging | your product until they got it taken off the app store. | gnicholas wrote: | This was for unrelated feature upgrades. I suppose it's | possible people had flagged us and the flags weren't reviewed | until we submitted an update though. | Natsu wrote: | You'd think this should be something they'd check for one way | or another... | projektfu wrote: | Would it have killed Apple to highlight the offending words in | the original review? | neurostimulant wrote: | I guess this depends on the reviewer. I had one rejected update | where the reviewer listed the offending contents in the | rejection message. | ChrisMarshallNY wrote: | I've had a few rejections (not "dozens," as someone above | mentioned), and, in my case, I have had to often deal with | the vague, "canned" responses, but also, a couple of times, I | actually had detailed indications, including screenshots. | | I am always unfailingly polite and professional, even though | I may want to strangle them. | | I dunno. I consider this "the cost of doing business." Not | thrilled with it, but it's better than friends of mine have | had to deal with, when a couple of thugs walk into their new | restaurant, and say "Where ya want the video games set up?" | faeriechangling wrote: | I understand the mistake that led to the rejection. The | arrogant, obnoxious, unhelpful, and entitled way the mistake | was handled is what's infuriating. | userbinator wrote: | _arrogant, obnoxious, unhelpful, and entitled_ | | That's just Apple being Apple. It's also one of the reasons I | don't use their products despite how nice they look. They | always think they're right, and smugly so. "You're holding it | wrong", etc. The attitude is endemic. | noveltyaccount wrote: | 100%, and sadly I've had quite a few high-friction | conversations with friends about iMessage. It's endemic and | trickles down to some of their customers, too. | fishfood23 wrote: | This is the most annoying part of rejection. They won't point | to anything specifically, but continue to send vague summaries | of the issue. If you're staring at a plist file and there's an | issue, why not just tell me you found an issue with the plist? | It's infuriating. | jeffparsons wrote: | I haven't had to deal with Apple's reviewers much personally, but | I've watched in amazement as my colleagues wade through the | process. Sometimes reviewers get stuck in loops, repeatedly | flagging "issues" (misunderstandings) that were already resolved | earlier in the conversation. It's like talking to a chat bot with | no conversational memory; I guess maybe because it's actually a | different person on the other end each time? | | The most successful strategy I've seen so far is to summarise the | entire conversation so far in every single message you send. | | I've also found, like other commenters in this thread, that we | are now much better versed in Apple's rules than their own | reviewers. So it can help to include quotes from their rules in | the conversation summary. | [deleted] | andrewmcwatters wrote: | Is there a website that lists a collection of all the times | people complain about having their face eaten like this by App | Store Review? | | I've thought about this from time to time and thought it might be | a fun pastime to create a collection of these. | detaro wrote: | Ok, that's a particularly funny reason for on of these. | borisgolovnev wrote: | Recently it took me 7 re-submissions to get an app through app | review. The reason? I was using a third-party SDK! One reviewer | figured that the SDK is contained in the app and this means it | counts as content. And any third-party content requires a written | and signed agreement with me personally which for an open source | code from github I obviously didn't have. I was trying to explain | the situation but each consecutive reviewer was just copying and | pasting the same rejection. The process is just so broken. | [deleted] | encryptluks2 wrote: | Getting rejected on Google Play sucks, but at least you can still | sideload apps while you dispute it. Getting rejected by Apple | should be illegal until they provide a way to use an alternative | app store. | chrisseaton wrote: | > Getting rejected by Apple should be illegal until they | provide a way to use an alternative app store. | | This is misinformation - you can still side-load apps on macOS. | 1over137 wrote: | This is for Mac though, the App Store is not obligatory. | grishka wrote: | I do wonder what makes people voluntarily publish their apps | there. It's not like they can't DIY Mac app distribution. | lapcat wrote: | Some developers have versions both inside and outside the | Mac App Store. Customers definitely request Mac App Store | versions, for various reasons. | | Also, if you already have iOS App Store versions of your | apps, then Mac App Store is not much of a stretch. | threeseed wrote: | Users like it. | | For example I almost never use apps outside of the App | Store and brew. | | It's great to be able have updates and purchases managed in | one place and if I ever get a new computer I can simply | login to my account and re-download everything in seconds. | [deleted] | DaiPlusPlus wrote: | Exposure. | | Also, IIRC/AFAIK, only macOS App Store-distributed apps | have the ability to use parts of iCloud, especially w.r.t. | data synchronization. | tambourine_man wrote: | The little experience I had with AppStore approval is that it's | mostly a game of persistence. They probably see some benefit from | a little friction to prevent spam or perhaps it's just pure | stupid bureaucracy. | | I was rejected for asking access to the camera. The App applied | filters to images taken. I stated as much in XCode, something | along: this app needs access to the camera in order to apply its | effects. Rejected for not being clear enough. I reworded, | basically adding more cruft: accepted. | | I doubt the second version was clearer, in fact, it probably | wasn't. It feels much more like a test to see how much does this | account want/need to publish and are willing to cooperate, than | actually following rules that make any sense. | lapcat wrote: | > They probably see some benefit from a little friction to | prevent spam or perhaps it's just pure stupid bureaucracy. | | More likely the latter, because the crApp Store | spammers/scammers seem to have plenty of persistence and | somehow manage to make it through review. | rroot wrote: | I wonder if the reviewers have a reject quota? | 88913527 wrote: | One of the main points of the App Store is for curating | quality, and I'm sure there is some positive correlation | between quality and persistence, but like any one-size-fits-all | policy, it will have failure around the edge cases (persistent | spammers and non-persistent but quality software publishers). | threeseed wrote: | You also need to have a little understanding. It's never going | to be a perfect process when you have people who aren't | technical making sometimes subjective decisions. | | The trick is to plan well. Assume delays and the need for re- | reviews and don't tie anything to when you think it might be | approved. | saagarjha wrote: | > Assume delays and the need for re-reviews and don't tie | anything to when you think it might be approved. | | This also, you know, sucks majorly when planning anything. If | Apple had to deal with this kind of review when releasing | iPhone they'd put a billion dollars into lobbying it away. | threeseed wrote: | They do have to deal with this kind of reviews. | | There are numerous government and cellular company | approvals they need in order to launch a phone. | saagarjha wrote: | I am aware. You can submit prototype devices to those | companies. There are clear standards to meet and | established ways to escalate or appeal reviews when | necessary. You know, like a functional process. | threeseed wrote: | There are established way to escalate and appeal reviews | with the App Store. | | And it's hilarious that you think complying with | government regulations is a clear and functional process. | behringer wrote: | At least you can sue the government. Good luck getting | anything but arbitration with apples lawyers when dealing | with apple. | tannedNerd wrote: | After being an iOS dev for 10 years now, I would gladly | deal with the franchise tax board over apple App Store | review. Government regulations are set out to the be | followed to the letter of the law. App Store guidelines | can be tossed aside because a reviewer didn't like your | tone. I've had at least two dozen App Store rejections | that were magically approved the second I mentioned going | to the press about discrimination. | lapcat wrote: | > The trick is to plan well. | | No, the trick is to run to the press and raise a big fuss, | bypassing app review to get to Apple execs who want to | quickly shut down bad PR. | [deleted] | blendergeek wrote: | Update from original tweeter: | | > Long story short: Two features (one from iOS 12, one from iOS | 16), and one name: Continuity Camera. | | https://twitter.com/eternalstorms/status/1560304401922854920... | kylec wrote: | So he _did_ mention features of pre-release software | ignormies wrote: | No he mentioned an iOS 12 feature which has the exact same | name (Continuity Camera) as an upcoming iOS 16 feature. | | His app uses the iOS 12 feature | pimlottc wrote: | I couldn't find the quoted tweet from your link, here's a | direct link: | | https://twitter.com/eternalstorms/status/1560311974034120704 | DawnQFunk2 wrote: | NotYourLawyer wrote: | raverbashing wrote: | I find it funny (no, not funny, tragic) how alledgedly the most | efficient companies around can go down to Aristotzkian levels of | bureaucratic gaslighting. | dinobones wrote: | Is Facebook funding some bad PR campaign against Apple here on | HN? I feel like I've seen so many of these posts in the past few | months. | lapcat wrote: | No, Matthias Gansrigler has been an indie Apple dev for well | over a decade. | | Every Apple dev has stories like this. | colonwqbang wrote: | Such stories have been posted at regular intervals for as long | as I have been reading this site. It seems to be the reality of | publishing on app store. | | In which case, Apple is funding a bad PR campaign against | themselves. | jrockway wrote: | Next they will take down all iOS apps, because there is a | prerelease version of iOS and all of the existing apps refer to | that word. | | Robots, saving us all time and energy! | lapcat wrote: | TL;DR Apple re-used the term "Continuity Camera", which now | applies to both a preexisting feature from iOS 12 and a | prerelease feature in iOS 16. The app's description refers to the | preexisting feature, but app review metadata-rejected the app | anyway. | | Also, app review initially neglected to mention the specific | problem, instead simply hand-waving about the rule against | mentioning prerelease features. | lijogdfljk wrote: | Appreciate the TLDR. I was reading the tweets and confused on | what the problem was.. Apple's naming scheme here seems awful. | mistrial9 wrote: | they can't tell you which rule you broke, because that would | give away the secrets </snark> | smooc wrote: | What I find interesting is that we seem to perceive the App Store | Review process as some kind of black and white thing, while it | isn't. Like a pure function that only works with the input | variables provided and no side effects. Guess what, there is an | actual human on the other side that is reviewing your app (with | support of automation tools obviously). That person will make | mistakes, will bring his/her own opinion and might not be | consistent and often won't be very elaborate. Kind of refreshing | actually. | | Interestingly, that's probably how most customers are handled by | many of the submitted apps, if at all. | friedman23 wrote: | You must love going to the DMV | rzwitserloot wrote: | No, it's a distopian fucking horrorshow. You're right, of | course. Humans are involved, it's not consistent, you're | witnessing a state machine where 'opinion and carefulness of | the human(s) that are part of this process' is a significant | chunk of how it works. | | But, __the escalation features__ are cliched Catch-22-esque | lunacy, and the actual information you receive in order to | ascertain which part of the big state machine caused the | rejection is non-existent. | | If this was how a government worked, I'd expect literal "shoot | a leader in broad daylight and storm their palace" levels of | unrest in a week. | | Apple (and other corps) are perfectly capable of reasoning | beyond the almighty dollar. Tim Cook did it, presumably, in a | rather famous incident yelling down someone on the earnings | call questioning apple's decision to spend extra cash on | environmentally friendlier packaging and distribution | processes. Possibly Tim really is a short sighted moron who | just thinks its worth wasting money on the environment | ('wasting money' in the sense of the amoral stockholder only, | of course!), but I'm assuming someone of Tim's caliber is a bit | more intelligent than that, and Tim's thought through the | (potential) brand damage, let alone the benefits of exuding an | imagine of being environmentally friendlier than needed. Which | isn't just "brand", but also staving off government | intervention. | | So, given that Tim and co are presumably capable of thinking | through the repercussions of how the company operates, are they | truly making the call that causing people the kind of pain and | frustration that makes posts like this rise to the top of | hackernews is somehow 'worth it', or are they, at least in this | highly specific regard, short-sighted morons / dangerously | uninformed about how their own company's processes work? | | I just do not understand. Whatever it costs to stop pissing off | and chasing away developers for your platform whilst arming the | masses to demand regulatory intervention HAS to be worth it. | And if Apple and co can't see that, I say; Heck yeah. Bring on | the fucking regulators. I know and accept it'll suck and | they'll make a hash of it, but odds are good it won't be such a | shitshow as what app review is today, and examples need to be | made. | threeseed wrote: | If Apple makes you this unhinged then don't buy their | products and avoid reading anything about them. | | Because these posts have been here for over a decade and will | be here for decades to come. Because the App Store is not | about developers. It's about users. And being a human-curated | process there will often be mistakes and people on Twitter | complaining. But users really like curation and so the status | quo is very much likely to remain. | dinkledunk wrote: | Me not buying their products doesn't stop my users from | doing so, or my employer from demanding we support them. | Also you've clearly never been on the submitting side of | the app store, this "careful curation" often misses blatant | violations and instead nags for weeks on minor or non- | existent issues while refusing to elaborate. | Apocryphon wrote: | Is it truly about users if scammy paid apps rise to the | tops of the charts? | | https://www.macrumors.com/2021/06/07/study-finds-scam-top- | pa... | CharlesW wrote: | "Guess what, there is an actual human on the other side | that is reviewing your app (with support of automation | tools obviously). That person will make mistakes..." | | Those mistakes work both ways. Sometimes apps are | approved that shouldn't have received approval. | Apocryphon wrote: | Yes but it's incredibly concerning that greater scrutiny | isn't being paid to apps _at the top of the charts_. What | are their priorities if they're going after cases like | the OP? | DiggyJohnson wrote: | Isn't this only a good thing if the human being on the other | end makes reasonable decisions in the interest of (1) the App | Store and (2) iOS developers? | | I understand I am biased by only seeing stories from developers | who have issues getting apps approved, but these stories rarely | end with a reasonable outcome. | smooc wrote: | Do we get to read the stories that end with a reasonable | outcome? I highly doubt it. | yesbabyyes wrote: | Are you suggesting that GP is biased by only seeing stories | from developers who have issues getting apps approved? It | sure seems so. | DiggyJohnson wrote: | I thought my comment made my awareness of this bias crystal | clear... | amelius wrote: | So if there is a human on the other side that makes mistakes | all the time, we can't complain about it? | | Perhaps they should put another human on the other side that | checks the first human. | ffhhj wrote: | Someone should make a game like Papers Please, in which you are | an app store reviewer. | cglong wrote: | Something tells me the App Store would reject this game :) | mook wrote: | > That person will make mistakes, will bring his/her own | opinion and might not be consistent and often won't be very | elaborate. | | That's fine, but anything coming out from Apple (including the | reasonable mistakes) are treated as the word of God, so | correcting those mistakes are more difficult than they should | be. | croes wrote: | That's exactly the reason why a rejection has to point to the | exact point that causes the rejection ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-08-21 23:00 UTC)