[HN Gopher] H1B rejected - builds unicorn back home ___________________________________________________________________ H1B rejected - builds unicorn back home Author : kumarm Score : 205 points Date : 2022-08-23 12:35 UTC (10 hours ago) (HTM) web link (twitter.com) (TXT) w3m dump (twitter.com) | throwawsy wrote: | Most of the top talented engineers i met at meetups are commited | to build companies in India. Defence, Infra, Fintech, Medical, | Space and Drug sectors are the ones most popular. we are going | see future unicorns from these sectors. | dudul wrote: | How do you identify a "top talented engineer" at a meet up? It | could be a useful trick for interview. | martin1975 wrote: | Don't fret. You're probably better off in the nicely developed | parts in India as an engineer than anywhere in the USA. | aleem wrote: | Three worst addictions: Heroine, Carbohydrates and a monthly | salary - Nassim Taleb | | It's more common for people who are in-between jobs to take | things that would be otherwise compromise their monthly salary | income. It's less common for someone to quit a high paying job | and take on a risky endeavour. | | Relatedly, the Tarzan strategy is another way to mitigate this | risk (side projects or finding your next gig before just quitting | the current), etc. Called Tarzan because you hang on to the next | rope before letting go of the current one. | datpuz wrote: | I would think alcohol would be worse than carbohydrates | quickthrower2 wrote: | I take Heroin here to really mean all narcotics including | alcohol. I think crystal meth would be worse than heroin | anyway, but have no direct or indirect experience. | | Low carb diet is and giving up alcohol completely: I | recommend people try. | | Taleb forgot workaholism. | c2xlZXB5Cg wrote: | alcohol is a carbohydrate with a twist. | NovemberWhiskey wrote: | That's neither chemically nor biochemically accurate. | vaidhy wrote: | You twist carbohydrate and you get hydrocarbons. It is | just linguistically accurate :) | manuelabeledo wrote: | > Three worst addictions: Heroine, Carbohydrates and a monthly | salary - Nassim Taleb | | Nassim Taleb is a bit of a wack. | | This sentence doesn't make sense. I really hope it was taken | out of context, because otherwise, there's absolutely no value | to it other than glorifying risk for the sake of it. May as | well be talking about gambling money away. | geodel wrote: | Huh, just a couple of centuries back maybe 90% of world | population was self employed. It was not the greatest risk | but simply a way of life. | dahfizz wrote: | Being a subsistence farmer was incredibly risky. One bad | year and your whole family starves to death. People only | did that because there was no alternative. As soon as the | industrial revolution came, people left their "self | employment" en masse to work at a company. | delusional wrote: | Not even "work at a company". Most of the dairy farmers | here where I'm from are part of a collective called Arla | where the independent dairy farmers collaborate, | effectively building their own safety net with an | organization that could support them if they had a bad | year. | | Companies are not required, but social safety nets are | hugely important for modern systems of production. | manmal wrote: | Self employed in the sense of being part of the gig economy | (serfdom), working all day for a modest living under Uber | (local ruler of the day). The risk was dying when the next | war broke out or it stopped raining for a year. | NovemberWhiskey wrote: | A couple of centuries back, wasn't most of the world | population subsistence farming in conditions broadly | described as serfdom? | trhway wrote: | yes, describing the serfdom as "self-employment" reminds | how some in US describe the slaves brought here back then | as "immigrants" or "labor migrants". | pessimizer wrote: | That's because it wasn't risky to get a job as a helper to | a working professional, learn their trade while doing the | worst/easiest part of the work, transition to doing skilled | work while having your helpers do the crapwork and the | professional did inspection and finishing, then either | taking over the shop from the professional, partnering with | the professional, or opening your own shop with your | already established customers. | | So completely unrelated to the modern world. | Temporary_31337 wrote: | Can anyone point me to how much the guy had actually earned? I | feel that if he'd stayed in the US and earned Microsoft stock | options he'd be much better off financially | renewiltord wrote: | Absolutely impossible that MS stock options as a Software | Engineer in 2007 gave you $200m plus today. | xtreme wrote: | There is more to life than chasing TC. | coding123 wrote: | Is that all that matters to people these days? | short_sells_poo wrote: | No but if we want to quantify whether a decision was a net | win or not, a valid approach is to express it in monetary | terms. There are other approaches, some more objective some | less, but money is simple. | | E.g. if I worked at MS and over 10 years built a capital of | $1mln, vs having worked in India and built a capital of | $300k, there may be other considerations, but in purely | monetary terms the MS approach would've been much better. | Further compound interest will make the $1mln wealth run away | much faster than $300k. | techenthusiast1 wrote: | The latest news I can find shows the company he founded was | planning to IPO at a valuation of $2.5billion. If one were to | assume the founder owns 10% of the company (reasonable at IPO | based on what I know), he would have made about $250 million in | equity. [https://www.business- | standard.com/article/companies/snapdeal...] | | This is in addition to about $650k annual salary in India. | [https://www.zeebiz.com/companies/news-snapdeal-co- | founders-k...] | | This would be pretty much impossible even with a very | successful career at Microsoft, short of becoming an SVP or the | CEO. | Ar-Curunir wrote: | Err, even disregarding the fact that there's more to life than | the money you earn, staying in the US wasn't even an option for | him. | paulgb wrote: | Since it's not mentioned in the tweet, the unicorn in question is | Snapdeal. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snapdeal | erichocean wrote: | An enormous loss for America, no doubt. | keepquestioning wrote: | This must be sarcastic because this seems like Amazon. | xwdv wrote: | It's not a public company so there's no reason to care | about this. You cannot invest in it. You cannot benefit | from it. You can merely use it, but as you said, it's just | a shittier version of Amazon, so why bother? | erichocean wrote: | Snapdeal revenue (not profit, just top-line revenue) in | 2021 (after 11 years in business): $64 million USD | | Is that _Amazon_ -like? Amazon was founded in 1994 and AWS | was created in 2006, 12 years later. Did Snapdeal launch | their own Indian AWS competitor in 2022? How's their | revenue growth holding up compared to Amazon? | | For comparison, my own 4 person e-commerce startup had | ~$6.4 million in revenue in 2021 with gross margins around | 30%. Of course, we've only been in business since 2018, not | 2010 like Snapdeal. If we take Softbank money (2014, | Snapdeal), will we also be an _Amazon_ -like "unicorn" in | seven years with mediocre revenue? | keepquestioning wrote: | Are you converting currency? | [deleted] | unknownaccount wrote: | I wouldnt want this unprofessional person working for me. Look at | how he lazily half-censored the names of his co-workers at | Microsoft that sent/cc the email, in such a way that you can | easily read it. | going_ham wrote: | Does it mean it costed the US of potential opportunities? I don't | think it made any difference in the US. But it surely helped in | his home country. | | While we are at it, what do you think of current visa issue in | the USA? For a long time, I thought it was difficult only to | people of Asian countries to migrate to US, but turns out it is | equally difficult for any other nations. | | In the long term, does it make a difference in US if it doesn't | bring talent across the world? Of course, there are a lot of | talent and there is always someone willing to move to US. So it | shouldn't be an issue, should it? | strikelaserclaw wrote: | agree, since India is like 5-10 years behind USA in the tech | space, most unicorns in India are just companies that already | exist in some form in USA. In India, the execution of a | business is the hard part by far, and not the novelty of the | idea. | factorialboy wrote: | > since India is like 5-10 years behind USA in the tech | space, most unicorns in India are just companies that already | exist in some form in USA. | | There are some areas where India has leapfrogged ahead of | United States and China. Look at digital payments for | instance. | | Since the 90's we have seen countless examples of how US / | western products and services cannot be sold as-is. | | Like all markets, India is unique. It also happens to be | significant in size and companies homegrown and global focus | on addressing local needs. | zht wrote: | sorry in what way has India's digital payments space | leapfrogged China's? Do you know what WeChat/Alipay are? | ignoramous wrote: | > _...since India is like 5-10 years behind USA in the tech | space_ | | The fact that the tech scene in the West (which is the | place where most things _happen_ ) is white-male dominated | and likely outranks Indians by a factor of 10x (?), which | means, as a group, they're likely to accomplish 10x in a | lot of metrics. | | Also, India is roughly 5x / 10x behind the US in tech | salaries too (amidst high inflation and weakening | currency), resulting in the infamous brain drain to the | West (where they then make things _happen_ , if they catch | a break). | sbmthakur wrote: | How exactly? In certain sectors like payments, India appears | to be ahead of the US by certain years thanks to UPI. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface | adamsmith143 wrote: | This is true all over the world. Some of the most valuable | companies in Asia or South America are just Uber or Doordash | clones for example. | aldebran wrote: | This is just categorically false. Shopping / delivery / | payments are a few categories where startups in India are | doing much better. | manishsharan wrote: | >>India is like 5-10 years behind USA in the tech space | | I don't quite understand this. Do you mean that they are | still using Internet Explorer , Java 5 , Windows 7 and | Myspace? | | Please explain. | DiggyJohnson wrote: | This idiom is referring to the maturity of their tech | industry at a high level, not their tooling (though that | could be a minor part of it). | | As an example, a country with paper-only tax filing might | be said to be a decade behind a country with easy online | e-file. It's referring to the difference in technical | capabilities, capacity, and/or innovation. | TomVDB wrote: | Putting a check in the mail (or pressing some button on a | web form to make it so) is one of the things that comes | to mind. | 22c wrote: | I guess they're trying to say that things like Uber, | Amazon, Door Dash, AirBNB, Venmo etc. have a strong | foothold in USA, but in India there's a lot of "home grown" | alternatives that have beaten the US big tech to adapt to | the Indian market. eg. Ola, Flipkart, Paytm, etc. | deadcoder0904 wrote: | dude no. most foreign apps won't work in india bcz we don't | like to pay for apps. | | "people come to india for dau, not arpu" ~ kunal shah on the | knowledge project [0] | | tiktok executed perfectly bcz they were optimizing for dau | but even flipkart is doing better than amazon here. many apps | just won't work bcz they don't understand. see how netflix | lost by asking to pay? | | people don't understand india as much as they think they do | so i'd suggest you to watch the video below as it covers | actual india from an actual indian who understands it. | | [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl1PIagzgUo | madmax108 wrote: | I feel that a reason for this is the cheap human labor | available in India, which naturally allows manual-powered | processes to scale much more easily in India compared to tech | solutions. Also, given the sheer size of the market, even | building CRUD apps backed by manual labor for more and more | niche use-cases can still garner a lot of users (but revenue | per user is still quite low). And note that there is nearly | no upside to actually replace the manual component or build | state of the art tech solutions because labor costs are | relatively small and non-prohibitive | | Related recent thread on Twitter which discussed some of | these ideas: https://twitter.com/championswimmer/status/15339 | 066147383910... | kshacker wrote: | > Does it mean it costed the US of potential opportunities? I | don't think it made any difference in the US. But it surely | helped in his home country. | | Our immigration service hands out N visas a year. You reject | one, someone else will pick up that slot. On an average it | should not make a difference either for US or the other country | unless they are so small their number of visas doubled or | something because of this one reject. | | > In the long term, does it make a difference in US if it | doesn't bring talent across the world? | | Yes it does make a difference, but fixing that has other | impacts. In the 90s when the H1 visa regime started (or got | big), if someone in Ceylon wanted to write software for an | American company, they probably could not do it, at least in | the early 90s. They did not have too many other options so US | not acquiring an available talent did not impact them. Nowadays | such un-acquired talent can do anything - set up a company, | work for Russia (or choose any other name who you would rather | not have acquire talent, maybe an oil company). However, the | fix is not so simple. To acquire all the talent pool would | require upping our immigration intake many fold, and that is | not going to happen for various reasons (politics, cost, limits | to how much immigration can you absorb). | davidw wrote: | > N visas a year | | That number is pretty clearly a number pulled out of | someone's ass, rather than anything 'scientific'. It's a nice | round number that sounded good to someone, but is pretty | completely disconnected from reality. | petilon wrote: | > _In the long term, does it make a difference in US if it | doesn 't bring talent across the world?_ | | Of course, it does! The only reason the standard of living in | the US is higher than anywhere else in the world is because the | US makes stuff the rest of the world covets. | | America is the leading economy in the world today not because | it has the most number of people, but because it has the best | and the brightest, gathered from around the world. We have the | smartest people not because the smartest people of the world | were all born here, but because smart people born elsewhere | have been immigrating to the United States. Stopping this is | not the path to creating jobs. | | US tech exports in 2018 was $338 billion. Tech is our biggest | export by far. Think of the US tech industry as a siphon that | sucks in wealth from foreign countries. Would you want to make | that siphon bigger or smaller? If you want to make that siphon | bigger -- and more competitive -- how would you do it? By | limiting the people that can work in tech to whoever you can | find locally, or by bringing in the smartest people from around | the world? | | Keep in mind that the money this siphon brings in is not only | benefiting tech workers and tech shareholders. When the money | is spent it turns the wheels of our economy, which leads to | prosperity for all Americans, not just the few that work in | tech. | | Think of the tech industry as a way to suck money from foreign | countries and pump it into the economy of our country. The | beneficiaries include all Americans, including those who work | in restaurants, retail, healthcare, insurance, education, | housing, transportation, entertainment and so on. | | Limiting tech industry to whoever companies can find locally | will hurt its global competitiveness. Such a move will not just | hurt the few would-be tech immigrants that are prevented from | immigrating, but American prosperity in general. | ALittleLight wrote: | I think there are several countries, across North and Western | Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, perhaps Singapore and | Hong Kong, that could compete with the US for "standard of | living". These countries don't have similar immigration | policies or histories compared to the US. | | If you think of a person who builds a unicorn as a national | level resource, which makes sense because they create jobs, | capabilities, and wealth, then you seem to be saying that it | is good for the US to drain the national resources of other, | poorer countries. Why isn't a good thing for Indian | entrepreneurs to create Indian unicorns in India? | FredPret wrote: | I'm an engineer that moved to Canada. Let me tell you, I am | here because they made it easy (or at least do-able) to | come, and the people made it extremely pleasant to stay. | | In America, you also get the mostly immigrant-friendly | culture, but it's orders of magnitude harder and more | involved to get there. So it's not even on my radar. | MichaelCollins wrote: | Judging by the high quantity and quality of Canadian | engineers I've worked with in America, I think Canada | welcomes foreign engineers because all their domestic | engineers already left for America. | ALittleLight wrote: | Canada's immigration system favors engineers and skilled | professionals. As the comment I was replying to put it | this is a way for rich countries, like Canada, to drain | the resources of poorer countries. This process benefits | you, because you prefer to live in Canada compared to | your home country, and it benefits Canada, because they | get more professionals, but it hurts your home country | who loses professionals. | FredPret wrote: | What do Canada, and I, owe my home country? | | Arguing I should stay there because I was born there is | not even just nativism, it implies countries own their | citizens as property. This idea would set the whole world | back. | | If they wanted me to stay, they could have tried harder | to create a nice environment for smart people there. | ALittleLight wrote: | This is simply an improved version of colonization - rich | countries extracting resources from the poor. Only now, | the rich countries don't have to bother with the | maintenance of the poor countries - they just drain the | valuable citizens and leave the rest. | | As to what you, or Canada, owe your home country - this | is a nonsense question. Either there are moral | obligations between people or there aren't. If there are, | then the rich taking from the poor (Canada importing | professionals) or the relatively well off abandoning | their poor countrymen (professionals departing their | homeland for better lives in rich countries) are likely | failing those moral obligations. If there are no moral | obligations you owe nothing but neither is anyone else | obliged to not point out the resource extraction. | FredPret wrote: | Where are the lines of obligation drawn? Do I owe | allegiance to my home country, which is a political | entity with arbitrary borders? If so, why? Or do I owe my | efforts and talents to the poorest people? Again, why? Or | to all humanity? To my family, to like-minded | individuals? | | If you think it's wrong for me to have emigrated for a | better life, well, off you go then, you go save the | people of Africa. | petilon wrote: | Australia takes in twice as many immigrants per year, | compared to the US, as a percentage of their population. | Canada almost 4 times as many. Singapore, New Zealand and | Hong Kong too take in more immigrants than the US. | ALittleLight wrote: | Canada and Australia both use a points based immigration | system. Both countries are isolated from land borders | that can be easily crossed. Contrast this with the non- | points based immigration system in the US and tens of | millions of immigrants from South and Central America. As | I wrote - different immigration systems. | [deleted] | pyb wrote: | All of the countries you cited have a lot of immigrants. | 62951413 wrote: | Shouldn't the government do more to promote equality? The | current approach makes possible to arbitrage at scale when | the government can | | * bring in a large number of already educated (for free or | _much_ cheaper) foreigners | | * often from an upper middle class background in their home | countries | | * progressively lower the bar on the secondary education for | Americans to jeopardize their chances of competing with | foreigners for STEM majors and eventually jobs in high-tech. | Which hits the disappearing [lower] middle class the hardest. | | * keep college education significantly more expensive than it | is for the very same foreigners | bobthepanda wrote: | * part of the problem is that education is not funded much | federally but mostly by cash strapped states and | localities, and there are many reasons why politicians and | parents may not want local control or funding to be | loosened. | | * part of the problem is that there are huge segments of | politicians who are not interested in or do not want | equality, and to that end even actively try to destroy | education | slt2021 wrote: | americans can do the same - move to Europe for college and | get higher education for a fraction of cost/almost free. | | then come back debt free with great education. | | I dont understand why Americans are not taking advantage of | these arbitrage opportunities. You don't need government to | do anything for you, just take your destiny in your own | hands | topspin wrote: | > But it surely helped in his home country. | | Likely. The absorption of young, motivated people by the US is | a major loss for their origin nations. Why this never seems to | be a concern for anyone involved is the proverbial gorilla in | the room. | manuelabeledo wrote: | > While we are at it, what do you think of current visa issue | in the USA? For a long time, I thought it was difficult only to | people of Asian countries to migrate to US, but turns out it is | equally difficult for any other nations. | | I suffered the consequences of the ongoing visa mayhem myself, | losing my job in early 2022. Luckily, I received my green card | soon afterwards. | | The US immigration policies, especially for work and talent | related visas, are incredibly disconnected from reality. There | is still no mechanism in place to curb the abuse by IT | consultancy companies, aka "visa mills". Instead, we have | brilliant people rejected because of their nationality, not | their achievements. Even worse, people with 5, 10, 15 years in | the country, high earners and taxpayers, may see themselves | kicked out because bureaucracy is just slow. | | > Of course, there are a lot of talent and there is always | someone willing to move to US. So it shouldn't be an issue, | should it? | | It is. At some point, money won't justify the looming feeling | of insecurity, and people will be less willing to leave their | home countries and come to the US. | | Even now, immigrating to the US is prohibitively expensive. The | talent pool is being reduced to those who can either afford it, | or are sponsored by their companies, and this doesn't guarantee | that the best and brightest are the ones arriving anyway. | geodel wrote: | I guess happy ending for every one. US got enough H1Bs that's why | rejected excess applications. Indian govt get to crow about | thriving startup ecosystem. And Indians got some cheap deals on | fashion and other household goods. As a result of all this, this | guy got to be billionaire or some such. | yardie wrote: | Note this was in 2007, during the height of the H1B body shop | scams. The USCIS visa system was overwhelmed by companies like | Infosys and Tata just submitting 1000s of applications for | clearly underqualified, yet cheap candidates for jobs that didn't | exist. This writer probably got their visa rejected over a less | qualified candidate because of the quota limits for H1b. | kioleanu wrote: | Why is this getting downvoted? It seems to provide a bit of | context. The situation is never black and white | the_svd_doctor wrote: | It's much much harder today than it ever was in the past, see | https://redbus2us.com/h1b-visa-cap-reach-dates-history-graph... | | FY 2008/2009 were indeed a bit of outliers at the time, but | since 2014/2015 it's getting worst and worst. FY 2023 had | 483,000 applications for ~85k total slots. | SloopJon wrote: | I don't know what Kunal's temporary work authorization was, but | note also that the STEM extension for the OPT program has been | tweaked in recent years, so that you can typically get three | bites at the H-1B apple while you're still on an F-1 visa. | aldebran wrote: | This is unfortunately still the case. H1B lottery is still a | thing. I had to lose a team member and the person saw a similar | email in their inbox. Sucks! | tablespoon wrote: | > This is unfortunately still the case. H1B lottery is still | a thing. I had to lose a team member and the person saw a | similar email in their inbox. Sucks! | | The lottery is still a thing, but I vaguely recall that a few | years ago they slapped down some of the foreign outsourcing | companies that were abusing the system. I'm I remembering | correctly? | didip wrote: | The lottery is still a thing but not for India and China. | sauravjain wrote: | wdym by this? it most definitely is still a lottery | [deleted] | iLoveOncall wrote: | I think you are talking about the Green Card lottery which | doesn't allow certains countries that have had too many | immigrants in the past 7 (I think) years. The H1-B lottery | doesn't have country limitations. | paxys wrote: | 2007-2012 was actually the easiest period to get an H-1B visa. | It has become significantly harder since then. | hibikir wrote: | It was in no way the easiest: For that you have to go back to | 2001-2003, where there were 195k available visas every year, | instead of the current 85k. Visas would still run out, but | the big race to submit on the first day, which eventually | gave us the lottery, came later. | | It wasn't all easy though: All those extra H-1s didn't come | with extra green card slots, so even an EB2 from Europe had a | very long wait. | diogenescynic wrote: | Simple solution is to give visas to the applicants with the | highest salaries instead of just giving these out at random. | slt2021 wrote: | US will lose most nurses and other non-tech, but essential | talent | diogenescynic wrote: | Pay them more if they are so vital then. Or would the | business really rather just go out of business instead of | raising wages? And if the business can't operate without | raising wages, maybe it's not a sustainable business anyways. | hibikir wrote: | A variety of other non-software jobs also rely on H-1Bs: See, | for instance, lab technicians. A change to highest salaries, | while probably way better for the software industry, and | applicants in general, would wipe out other sectors. | | The system definitely needs fixing, but simple solutions often | have all kinds of negative side effects. | diogenescynic wrote: | The simple solution is to pay them more if they are so vital. | Their value is directly related to their pay. | | The issue often isn't that talent can't be found... it's that | talent can't be found at the price the corporation wants to | pay. We need to encourage corporations to pay more which | should correspond to the most essential positions needed, not | just find the cheapest worker. | MichaelCollins wrote: | This is obviously the answer. Rank the H1B applicants by salary | and let the most valuable in first. This will force companies | to consider how much a worker is _actually_ worth. | colinmhayes wrote: | Or just give out more visas to educated workers? | Something1234 wrote: | Wouldn't that be unfair to any potential start ups that needed | an H1B for some complex subject matter? | diogenescynic wrote: | If your startup is already H-1B dependent, then I don't feel | super bad. Raise more and find local talent at the market | rate or go out of business--but startups aren't entitled to a | pool of cheap, foreign labor via H-1Bs. | zb1plus wrote: | avasylev wrote: | Curious if you have example of racist US visa/immigration | policy? There's a lot deserved criticism of current system, but | can't think of anything specifically racist. | giobox wrote: | Green card quotas are based entirely on your country of | birth. | | For example, a UK citizen can obtain a green card far, far | faster than an Indian citizen. If a UK citizen and Indian | citizen on an H1B visa start the Green Card process at the | same time, the UK citizen will obtain permanent residency | typically in 9-18 months. For the Indian applicant, who | applied on same day with same visa and process, it will | likely be over 10 years before they have security of | permanent residence. | | Where you were born is built into the foundations of how the | USA allocates Green Cards to many visa holders, regardless of | who you are, how much you contribute to the USA or earn etc | etc. | | There are attempts to fix this too: | | > https://www.fwd.us/news/per-country-cap-reform-priority- | bill... | alibarber wrote: | The UK is an interesting example given that it's, | effectively, the only country in Europe that cannot take | part in the annual GC lottery. And even then, Northern | Ireland is exempt from that. | | This has got something to do with the amount of British | people who are already in the US, and I expect in the case | of your example, that might also have something to do with | the number of Indian H1B holders. | zb1plus wrote: | Exactly, H1B visas should be entirely blind to country of | origin since to do otherwise would amount to de facto | racism due to the racial demographics of many countries. | _-david-_ wrote: | Nationality and race are not intrinsically linked so I am | not sure how that is racism? | noufalibrahim wrote: | This is definitely an inspiring story but isn't it an isolated | data point? | | On average, the US has a lot of things going for it for a young | software professional if he or she can navigate the immigration | maze and is reasonably lucky. Might not be for everyone but for | the _average_ person, getting a cushy job in a large company | might be better for stability and long term satisfaction that | risking it on an attempt to create a unicorn (which is rarely | successful). | anukin wrote: | Its an extremely isolated data point. He was born rich. Had the | money and privilege to do coaching to go to an elite Indian | engineering college. Went to US from there. When he came back | his buddies from college where VCs. They funded him. His | startup collapsed terribly even after so much of luck, | privilege and funding. So now he gives outdated gyaan(wisdom) | in Twitter. | jitix wrote: | This is true everywhere tbh. Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, | Jeff Bezos all came from families that were upper-middle | class or rich. | | It's not a bad thing imo since families should strive to | improve their situation with every generation, but it's | important to highlight that rags-to-riches stories are | extremely rare. | | There are probably many who also got their visa rejected and | were stuck with huge loans for their studies and an Indian | salary, or had to move to EU/CANZUK countries as a second | option. | redox99 wrote: | Doesn't that make his point stronger? If you are well | connected, rich, and went to an elite college, it would make | even more sense for the US to give you the visa. | quickthrower2 wrote: | If you are that rich maybe go there on an investment type | of visa. Buy a farm, then do tech. | abc_lisper wrote: | That's the thing with all the interesting stories though. I'm | in no way criticizing you, just thought about this for a while. | If we let ourselves guided by interesting(and thus rare) | stories, we are obviously setting ourselves for failure, | because that's not playing the game that needs to be played. | throw0821374 wrote: | . | abc_lisper wrote: | They also make choices and compromises people in US don't. | Every interaction in India is loaded with suspicion. | Dishonesty is the baseline. Disrespect is the norm. | Xenophobia is common. Insecurity is the guiding North Star. | Entitlement is prevalent. Hard work is looked down. Rules are | for fools and loyalty (however earned/enforced) is | everything. I love my country, but those are the facts. | [deleted] | dxbydt wrote: | In the early 1990s when I came here, the prevailing wisdom was | that its categorically better to immigrate to the US from India | if you get a chance. India was too far back in the tech space, | too much bureaucracy, corruption, red-tape etc etc... | | In the 2020s, the consensus is quite mixed. A lot of people I | personally worked with, who successfully got their visas and | green cards, have given it all up and gone straight back to India | because that's where the action is. It was quite baffling to me | because it takes a _lot of work_ to get these documents. But | after a few trips to India, I must say it makes a lot of sense. | The startup funding situation, tech jobs hiring scenario, cost of | living, telecom, healthcare, no prevalence of gun culture...every | aspect is much better in India _currently_ than the US. If you | have high 6 low 7 figure USD saved up, and not too deeply tied to | the US, you should consider moving back if you want to tap into a | potential windfall. That said, if you only have 5 figure USD, | coming to the US is the better option if you can swing it. If you | 're already here on a visa, stay frugal & grow that nest egg. | Going back with a 5 figure sum is quite risky unless you have | some solid contacts in the startup space or are ok with the | Indian job scene. Interviews over there are _insanely_ | competitive. 500+ LC. Kids just stay at home grinding LC all day. | There are dedicated youtube channels in Hindi & other regional | lang telling you how to dynamic program, backtrack, div & | conquer, two pointer....its a whole different scene. | cyanydeez wrote: | Aside from the same far right nationalists making headway in | authoritarian, it probably would be great | candiodari wrote: | What's "LC" ? | [deleted] | advisedwang wrote: | LeetCode I think | cercatrova wrote: | One reason not to go back to India: climate change and heat. | People are basically burning alive there and due to the high | population, many people will starve in the coming decades as | droughts cause crop failures. This will cause food and water | wars as rising instability of the subcontinent means many | people will need asylum. The area will not be geopolitically, | financially, or otherwise stable in such a time. If I were a | betting person, I'd move as close to the poles as possible in | the coming future. | frontman1988 wrote: | Not to forget the air pollution. The PM 2.5 levels are | morbidly high. Millions of deaths are linked to air | pollution. People in their 40s,50s are increasingly dying of | cardiac arrest, more and more kids have asthama and other | lung diseases. Delhi is literally a gas chamber, even | Bangalore air is mostly at unhealthy level. Given the | population density and increasing industrialization, this | problem is only going to increase in the next 10-15 years. | YetAnotherNick wrote: | > People are basically burning alive there and due to the | high population | | This is only true for poor people. It might sound bad, but | average Indian live much worse life than someone who could | afford/have skills to visit US. | cercatrova wrote: | Yes, however due to there being significantly more poor | people than rich people, especially tech workers, there | will be antagonizing behavior in the future. There will be | country-wide instability, and even if you're rich, a | comparatively rich country like in Europe or the US will be | substantially more stable than one with a higher degree of | income inequality. | LZ_Khan wrote: | Is that why my LeetCode ranking is always so depressingly | abysmal? My solutions are always bottom 25% of speed and space | usage, and the pass rate for some of their questions are way | higher than my average. | sremani wrote: | People are making an error based on the past 20 years of debt | binge and capital flooding that took over the world. | | When the FDI dries up, India is a very weird place. The energy | costs will put a number in Asia and Europe in the next decade | with dramatic food security challenges. | | Overall, at macro level, US beats India, but are there positive | offshoots in some niches.. perhaps! | naravara wrote: | The US may beat India in macro level economic factors for | quite a while to come, but for a more senior professional | with a marketable resume I think it's not too hard to find | the positive niches. | | Honestly the main thing that keeps me from moving back is | quality of life concerns with traffic, air quality, and noise | pollution. | radicaldreamer wrote: | I think the pollution, weather, water quality, noise, dust, | and overall lack of high quality public spaces is a big | deal. | | India is amazing and dynamic in a lot of ways, but there | are major intangibles to account for (like how much one | values a quiet evening walk in fresh air). | Ar-Curunir wrote: | You don't have to live in a Delhi or a Mumbai or a | Bangalore. Cities like Dehradun, Ranchi, and more provide | many of these amenities. | jitix wrote: | I grew up in a state capital and lived in 2 metro cities | and honestly the infrastructure was better in my home | city in terms of electricity, water and flooding. But | there are very few tech jobs, which gives the 2-3 | employers there huge leverage due to the lack of job | mobility. | | Hopefully between fibre penetration and WFH culture | things will improve. | sremani wrote: | The most important amenity is Employment. Only a small | portion of people would move to tier-2 seconds and that | too because of familial ties not some over whelming | amenities. | | By and large NRIs moving back from US end up in the usual | metros at least in the beginning. | rakejake wrote: | Not all countries are blessed with the nature's bounty that | the US is blessed with. I agree Energy is something India | will be working on furiously in the coming decade. I presume | both nuclear and renewable will be expanded rapidly. In the | interim, India does have good relationships with most energy | producing countries (Russia, Saudi). | | What food security challenges does India have? India has been | much poorer in the past and hasn't had any food security | issues in a long time. | jamal-kumar wrote: | I remember when the price of onions went from well under a | dollar for a single large onion to about a dollar or more | for a large one when there was an enormous amount of | flooding in india around 2019-2020, ruining their crops. | Apparently the onion is a huge staple out there compared to | the Americas and so they needed to source onions from | pretty much everywhere else. | | It sounds like a trivial price increase maybe to some | people in more affluent countries but some in Latin | America, it was a pretty challenging price increase. | | My personal groceries bill is about 25$usd per week, meat | vegetables and a bit of cereal goods. Used to be less | within a decade ago, but hey what can you do - North | America I was paying closer to 100 | eldaisfish wrote: | India is entirely dependent on the monsoon for fresh water. | When combined with a warming climate, this is a disaster | waiting to happen. I am 100% confident that we will live to | see the days when food scarcity returns to India. Mind you, | indian soils are some of the most fertile in the world so | this really is an alarming scenario. | | India's past issues with food scarcity were due to a | combination of mismanagement and theft. Partly the british | empire and partly the lack of skills in India. Widespread | crop failures haven't been a thing for a while now. | wowokay wrote: | I feel like a good relationship with Russia is not a plus | for India right now. | vkou wrote: | Why? They treat eachother like partners, not like vassal | states, and the rest of the world is _not_ treating India | like a pariah, despite its relationship with Russia. | | It's a win-win for India. | weatherlite wrote: | India is getting Russian oil pretty cheap now as far as I | know, and most likely Iran as well. The U.S is not immune to | the energy problem btw, Shale oil is getting more expensive | because all the easy spots were already used. | frontman1988 wrote: | India imports more than 90% of it's oil.India hardly has | any natural energy reserves good enough for it's huge | population. It's definitely going to be tough to fullfill | the aspirations of 1.5 billion people who will have | increasing energy demands while supply will be perennially | limited. If per capita consumption of India even has to | reach China levels, it's going to be a massive challenge | even with renewables involved. Energy security of India | doesn't look good unless they try doing something like the | good old introducing democracy in the middle east. | sremani wrote: | I cannot argue here. What would go wrong, if Russian Oil | and Gas are foundational to your Energy Security. | | Let me call Angela Merkel. | weatherlite wrote: | It's very unlikely Russia will do anything to mess up | what they have going with China and India...because they | don't have much other alternatives. I am not talking | morals here ... I am calling it as it is. This has | nothing to do with morals. | bluGill wrote: | If Russia did reasonable things they wouldn't have | attacked Ukraine. Since we are talking about a Russia | willing to do stupid things there is no reason to believe | they won't mess with India or China. | hello_moto wrote: | > 500+ LC. Kids just stay at home grinding LC all day. There | are dedicated youtube channels in Hindi & other regional lang | telling you how to dynamic program, backtrack, div & conquer, | two pointer....its a whole different scene. | | That's because it is a deeply rooted culture/attitude of the | people in India (or other developing countries): intellectual | one-upmanship (i.e.: my "brain" is bigger than yours). | | Nobody wants to be perceived to acquire something (a job, a | house, anything) easily; people want to have a sense of the | greatest achievement after a tough grind. | Dracophoenix wrote: | > That's because it is a deeply rooted culture/attitude of | the people in India (or other developing countries): | intellectual one-upmanship (i.e.: my "brain" is bigger than | yours). | | > Nobody wants to be perceived to acquire something (a job, a | house, anything) easily; people want to have a sense of the | greatest achievement after a tough grind. | | We have intellectual oneupmanship and hustle & grind culture | in the United States as well too. And contrary, it's not new, | as Tocqueville and Weber had made note of it during their | days. | jitix wrote: | This is something that is really concerning to me. If | everybody is pushed towards a STEM job the market becomes | saturated affecting salaries (and the associated "prestige" | in Indian society). And to top it off young children are | forced to give up their childhood to pursue Byjus and other | scams that prey on the parents' emotions. I grew up in the | professional class in India and a lot of thinking is plain | irrational and just driven by a herd mentality and | superiority complex. Just toxicity all around tbh. | | If someone wants to become a travel photographer and is happy | with the job and the lifestyle why push them towards a soul | sucking STEM job where they may not even excel? But somehow | having a low paying "engineer" job is somewhat better than a | higher paying "artist" job in their eyes. | | And to those reading from outside of India: WITCH company | jobs are actually considered prestigious in India. Maybe not | by those who frequent HN (bubbles everywhere) but the vast | majority of STEM graduates and their communities. | dxbydt wrote: | How exactly does an American keep up with this level of | intellectual one-upmanship ? This was on my linkedin timeline | today - https://imgur.com/a/dLpo9G7 | yieldcrv wrote: | May I ask, how fast are the exits if I was to invest in India | companies? | | One thing that turned me off from US venture capital was the | culture of delaying exits to the stock market, compared to the | 90s when Microsoft/Netscape/Amazon all IPO'd at like $30 | million market caps and rallied and there was so much upside | and liquidity. Is there a culture like that in India right now, | or something similar? | | I really like how the Matic/Polygon team achieved "unicorn" | status while in India and stayed in the scene (I heard they | moved to UAE since). I don't care that its crypto, I care that | its tech and moving fast. | | Is the action just in Bangalore or is it all over or a few | other tech hubs? | pastor_bob wrote: | > Interviews over there are insanely competitive. | | Why is it then that it's common understanding that Indian teams | are usually bad? Why are they so difficult to deal with and why | do they produce bad code? | bluGill wrote: | There a over a billion people in India, and tech is where the | young have been going for a while. In any large population | you willhave good and bad people. In the US the bad move to | something else, but in India there isn't a something else | better than working for a place that will hire you cheap to | produce bad code. | | There are a lot of bad engineers in India, but if you can | weed through them and are willing to pay there are a lot of | great ones too. | isbvhodnvemrwvn wrote: | Body/team leasing is nearly always shit quality, doesn't | matter if it's from India or not. You can try to pay folk in | India much less than you can get away with in e.g. Europe | though. | 8ytecoder wrote: | I've had some good experience hiring contractors. It all | depends on what the goal is. If the goal is high quality | work there are shops for that and if the goal is for a big | enterprise to manage costs and de-risk themselves by hiring | contractors as easy-to-let-go resources, you get exactly | that. I've dealt with both and the latter is just extremely | frustrating made infinitely worse by dealing with the | timezone. | | If you've seen job placements in top tier colleges in | India, it's obvious that none of the body shops ever get | even a small percentage of graduates wanting to join. | They're always the last choice even for the less | academically inclined. It has been the case since at least | 2005. Until then these companies still had some sway and | were hiring some good candidates. Now they're coasting on | their "account winning" architects who then transfer all | day-to-day stuff to some of the most tough to deal with | engineers. | harshalizee wrote: | Because you get what you pay for. | | A significant number of engineers that FAANGM and a lot of | others brings into the US from their Indian offices are top- | notch. The salaries they pay in India are in the $60k-130k | range which is incredibly good there. Same with a lot of good | startups and core engineering firms. The off-shore | consultancies you might be familiar with are sweat shops that | are a dime a dozen with engineers coming and going a | revolving door. They're optimized to make a quick buck with | as cheap labor as possible. Just like the US firms that hires | them. | eldaisfish wrote: | be careful generalising india because anything that one can | claim, the opposite is also true. | | A major reason countries like the USA and the UK flourish is | stability. Stability is not something india has and that is a | very difficult thing to put a price on. Indian capital markets | are not transparent though that is less of an issue for | startups. What should be telling is the number of "Indian" | startups that are registered in places like Singapore. | | I have to rain on your parade but there are many aspects of | life in India that money cannot solve. I am no fan of the USA | either but the "gun culture" thing is a strawman that doesn't | affect daily life in the cities. It is certainly a problem but | not a problem that many make it out to be. Be careful with the | healthcare argument too. India's legal and police systems are a | joke and their healthcare system is cheap but kills millions | every year due to medical negligence. The US healthcare system | - for all its flaws - has some of the best outcomes provided | you have enough money to access it. | pm90 wrote: | > I have to rain on your parade but there are many aspects of | life in India that money cannot solve. I am no fan of the USA | either but the "gun culture" thing is a strawman that doesn't | affect daily life in the cities. It is certainly a problem | but not a problem that many make it out to be. Be careful | with the healthcare argument too. India's legal and police | systems are a joke and their healthcare system is cheap but | kills millions every year due to medical negligence. The US | healthcare system - for all its flaws - has some of the best | outcomes provided you have enough money to access it. | | I think its interesting that you manage to both minimize the | impact of firearms in the US and ding the healthcare system | of India in the same comment. | | I have to disagree with both. Guns are a constant threat, | even in the bluest of cities since there are Red States just | a few hours of drive away (if you're not already a Blue City | in a Red State which is extremely common). The threat of | school shooting is very real. Kids have to go through bs | "active shooter drills"... this is not the sign of a healthy | society. | | Indian healthcare system certainly has flaws but it manages | to provide basic healthcare to all citizens. There are lots | of fantastic doctors trained every year in India. | | The legal and police systems, I buy that argument. The | mainstream media, totally under the control of the | authoritarian right wing Government. Modi. Those are legit | criticisms. | wowokay wrote: | The threat of a school shooting is real everywhere, I don't | think the news does justice to showcase how often gun | violence could have been avoided if the individuals in the | kids life payed attention. | drekipus wrote: | > even in the bluest of cities since there are Red States | just a few hours of drive away | | I remember reading somewhere that the statistics and | likelihood of innocents being shot were more closely tied | to "blue" and gun-free cities and states. | | Is that not the case? | brianwawok wrote: | > I have to disagree with both. Guns are a constant threat, | even in the bluest of cities since there are Red States | just a few hours of drive away (if you're not already a | Blue City in a Red State which is extremely common). The | threat of school shooting is very real. Kids have to go | through bs "active shooter drills"... this is not the sign | of a healthy society. | | Sorry you are buying far too much into the news. I suspect | more people are burned alive in housefires from shoddy | construction in India, than die in the US to guns. | pm90 wrote: | If you're gonna wildly speculate then by all means go | ahead and make up the most wildest shit imaginable. | ivalm wrote: | It's actually surprisingly close in absolute numbers. | About 20k not-self inflicted gun deaths in the us, and | 17k deaths by fire in India. Ofc per capita gun | deaths>>fires. | bombcar wrote: | The non-self inflicted is huge though, most gun deaths | are suicides. | calculatte wrote: | > even in the bluest of cities | | Are you telling me there is ACTUALLY gun violence in | Chicago, Detroit, and New York? Well, knock me down with a | feather! | | BTW Someone needs to tell India to get a handle on their | vehicle death culture. It is a constant threat. Children | are being absolutely slaughtered in the streets by these | assault vehicles and the numbers are only rising. | weatherlite wrote: | The U.S has stability? Mmm not really. | wowokay wrote: | It has been stable since I have been here? In fact all the | issues that make the most $$$, gun violence, abortion, race | relations, these are not a problem at the macro level. If | anything it should be commended that our media and | leadership has the luxury to complain about these "issues" | that affect less then 5% of the population. | weatherlite wrote: | Stable for who, and how do you define stability? For you | it feels stable, for some factory worker it's not great. | But I was getting more at American politics - that feel | to me like they've reached rock bottom (at least compared | to the last 2-3 decades). Eventually a crippled political | system will bring down the economy. It's very possible | all things considered, and relative to Europe (or China, | India, whatever), the U.S is doing good. But that's not | gonna matter much to the average American citizen. | There's no way Americans won't feel the political and | economic mayhem that's coming the coming decade or two. | jeromegv wrote: | Surely a man would say that abortion is not a problem at | the macro level and only impact 5% of the population. | | Doesn't impact you so of course you don't care, but it | does impact a lot more than 5%. Same for race relations, | lots of people having to spend their life being put all | kind of barriers in front of them. | splintercell wrote: | Bro good luck on the upcoming Hindu-Muslim civil war, and | then subsequent South Indian secession movement. | | PS: I know what you're going to tell me, that I don't | know what I am talking about, but believe me, I do. | amf12 wrote: | > their healthcare system is cheap but kills millions every | year due to medical negligence. | | This is a problem money can solve though. If you have the | money, you can get pretty good medical care in India. "cheap | but kills millions" isn't really a problem faced by most | people who have the money to afford it. | | > The US healthcare system - for all its flaws - has some of | the best outcomes provided you have enough money to access | it. | | > Exactly. You need the money in the US to just be able to | afford healthcare here. There are millions of people who | don't have insurance (private, medicare), or have expensive | deductibles to make healthcare out of reach for some. | frontman1988 wrote: | Healthcare in India also has one very negative aspect which | is that more than half of the doctors have qualified due to | some form of caste based affirmative action. More than 50% | seats in Indian Medical colleges are reserved for "lower | castes." It's much easier for a less hard working/bright | student to get into the college if he belongs to the lower | caste which reduces the quality of doctors so much that a | lot of people refuse to get treated by doctors who have | lower caste surnames. Atleast in America you are guaranteed | you have mostly competent folks treating you, hard to do | that in India without doing background checks on the caste | of the doctor as well. | Judgmentality wrote: | How is this any different from saying you would avoid a | black/Hispanic/minority doctor in the United States? The | US also has affirmative action for medical schools. If | anything this problem would be worse in the US, since | it's harder to determine race by name here. | | Your comment reads as thinly veiled casteism/racism. | wowokay wrote: | No this is not true, you can't be denied medical treatment | in the US even if you don't have the ability to pay it. | lotsofpulp wrote: | Emergency medical treatment, right? | bombcar wrote: | Yes, but if you "look like you can pay" you can get much | more than that. | WWLink wrote: | Right. Anything beyond that nobody is obligated to | provide. However, if you're in that level of dire straits | there's almost always a way to get it covered. In most | states, anyway. | okasaki wrote: | The UK isn't thriving - 18% inflation, low salaries (except | in the money laundering industry), bad and very expensive | housing, no infrastructure investment, etc. | cromka wrote: | > no infrastructure investment | | I think one could say anything about UK these days, but | lack of infrastructure investment? Seriously? UK compared | to the US, it's like 50 years of difference. And I'd argue | it's still ahead of most of the old EU, too. | throw0821374 wrote: | . | ralphmelish wrote: | Get a license for what? I don't really understand the | relationship between bureaucracy and buying a book... You | can buy anything you like from anywhere in the world, pay | your duty online, and have it delivered to your door. I | did it a couple of times with DHL, Royal Mail, and never | had any issues. | [deleted] | ralphmelish wrote: | UK doesn't have 18% inflation, that is just a projection | from Citigroup [0] (if gas prices continue to grow it will | probably get there, like the rest of Europe). Inflation is | at 10.1%. | | I'm not sure why you say 'low salaries'. Adjusted by cost | of living, salaries are not that low [1]. Median (removes | those salaries from 'money laundering industries') salary | in London is almost PS39.7k [2]. Adjust that by cost of | living, and it is higher than median income in San | Francisco or NYC [3]. | | Infrastructure is miles better than the US. Public | transport, while expensive, works quite well. The US has | virtually no public transport whatsoever. | | Housing and renting is expensive in every major city, it is | not a problem exclusive to the UK. | | [0] https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/22/uk- | inflatio... | | [1] https://neilkakkar.com/salary-calculator-by-city.html | | [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/416139/full-time- | annual-... | | [3] https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/sanfrancis | cocit... | | Edit: format | prvit wrote: | >bad and very expensive housing | | Are you kidding? London has the highest quality apartment | buildings in Europe. Well designed new builds with good | services are abundant. This stuff hardly even exists in | countries like France, Germany or Spain. | anukin wrote: | Even though it can be agreed that coming back to India is a | good option for most many Indians, it is also to be noted that | Indian political games within Indian orgs make it super hard to | do anything. IMO the only reason to go back to India should be | to start on your own with your trusted friends. If you think | you can work in India and contribute positively think again. | jitix wrote: | I worked in the US and felt that H1B status was very insecure | so I tried to start my own company in India in 2020, and also | explored the job and housing market. I agree 100% with all the | great financial and work-related competitive points you've | highlighted but I believe it misses the human and quality of | life factors. | | Things that really affected my mental health in India during | that time: | | 1. Food: Lack of variety in food and food ingredients. I like | to eat out and cook different cuisines (Japanese to Korean to | Middle eastern to French to Northern European). Beef is a major | issue in India and fresh sushi can be a hit or miss even in | Balgalore. And nothing is available if you're outside of the | major metro cities. | | 2. Prices: If you're in Bangalore you do get a wide variety of | food including beef dishes but equivalent quality restaurants | and bars in India have the similar range prices as the US (I | used to live in the south so it might not be apples to apples). | Same goes for food ingredients - e.g. Almond milk and cheddar | cheese costs the same in India as in the US. | | 3. Traffic and honking: Even sitting in an Uber for 30 mins can | be maddening for me. Not to mention people actually yell | obscenities at each other in traffic jams. | | 4. Interruptions: India still has power cuts, water supply and | flooding issues and the bigger the city (with more | opportunities) the worse these problems are. The gated | communities in the metros alleviate many of these issues but | then you're paying $1000 or more per month in rent or purchase | for $600-700K. So same as most developed countries. | | My conclusion was that if you got somewhat acclimated to the | having a better QoL in the west (which is different than | standard of living) you really need to try living there for a | few months and see if it makes financial sense, because you'll | be paying western prices on a Indian salary. As always YMMV | depending on your preferences. I myself ended up moving to | Canada. | | edit: fixed typo | stainforth wrote: | Sounds like those points are all ripe opportunities for | startups of their own no? Just a matter of identifying market | gaps, I'm sure that's why US companies have hired so many | Indians, just simple filling of needs and not some other | mechanic as to way the world works. | fn-mote wrote: | Pretty sure you forgot the /s but just in case: a startup | to fix "power cuts, water supply and flooding issues"? Like | "startup government". I guess that's what the gated | communities are? | int_19h wrote: | "Snow Crash" described the logical conclusion of such a | development: | | "Have to bulldoze lots of neighborhoods to do it, but | those seventies and eighties developments exist to be | bulldozed, right? No sidewalks, no schools, no nothing. | Don't have their own police force -- no immigration | control -- undesirables can walk right in without being | frisked or even harassed. Now a Burbclave, that's the | place to live. A city-state with its own constitution, a | border, laws, cops, everything." | | "MetaCops Unlimited is the official peacekeeping force of | White Columns, and also of The Mews at Windsor Heights, | The Heights at Bear Run, Cinnamon Grove, and The Farms of | Cloverdelle. They also enforce traffic regulations on all | highways and byways operated by Fairlanes, Inc. ... | MetaCops' main competitor, WorldBeat Security, handles | all roads belonging to Cruiseways, plus has worldwide | contracts with Dixie Traditionals, Pickett's Plantation, | Rainbow Heights (check it out--two apartheid Burbclaves | and one for black suits), Meadowvale on the [insert name | of river] and Brickyard Station." | paxys wrote: | US immigration policies for Indian and Chinese nationals has been | a blessing for their home grown tech ecosystem. There is no path | to a green card or citizenship for anyone who immigrated in the | last ~15 years, and the top 5% talent that used to come over by | default is now working at or founding companies at home instead. | This is directly correlated to the number of tech unicorns in | these countries growing exponentially in the same time period (0 | in India before 2010, 100+ in 2022). | SloopJon wrote: | > There is no path to a green card or citizenship for anyone | who immigrated in the last ~15 years | | I'm no expert, but I don't think this is quite right. For an | applicant with a bachelor's degree, the cutoff date is February | 2012 for India, and April 2018 for China: | | https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/visa-law0/v... | | With an advanced degree, it's December 2014 for India and April | 2019 for China. | | Please correct me if my understanding is incorrect. | xuki wrote: | I don't know about India, but China's policy to block US big | techs is the reason why China have the tech companies they have | today. | yardie wrote: | Yes, block big US tech companies and steal as much IP as you | can get away with. | tenpies wrote: | Given the political state of US tech, has this not proven to | be an incredibly wise decision? | dixie_land wrote: | Thanks to "consulting" companies' abuse of H1B. | | We should've just have a stack ranking of H1B candidates, based | on income (and severe penalties for regression in comp, so you | can't just do it for the visa). This would immediately break | companies like Infosys that simply spams the lottery system | with bogus applications. | 8note wrote: | It'd be better to have a dedicated tech visa -- h1b handles a | wide variety of roles that have different salary ranges | paxys wrote: | The current system is in place only because all of the US | companies that benefit from cheap labor provided by the likes | of Infosys have lobbied for it. | manuelabeledo wrote: | I doubt it is cheaper at all. | | H-1B applications must pass the prevailing wage test, i.e. | applicants cannot earn less than the prevailing wage for | their position at the chosen employment location. | | Companies like Tata, Infosys, WiPro, etc. _need_ to | maintain a part of their workforce in the US for certain | projects anyway, so they slave away these applicants with | draconian contracts. It 's not that they pay them | significantly less than any other, but the fact that they | can guarantee a 3 to 5 year headcount for their larger US | based projects, with a larger talent pool to choose from, | if needed. | geebee wrote: | A shortage at a certain wage level probably indicates | that the prevailing wage is too low. So targeted visa | programs designed to provide more workers at the | prevailing wage can suppress wage growth, which, over | time, really is no different from a reduction in wages. | | This is why a lot of people, like me, favor high levels | of general immigration but don't support targeted visas | like the H1B. I'm especially opposed to visas that are | controlled by the employer and restrict the personal and | economic freedom and mobility of immigrant workers in the | US. If employers are lobbying for visas that allow | someone to work in the US only on the condition that they | remain in a specific role at a specific company at a | specific salary, that should raise all kinds of red | flags. You're allowed to be a software developer in the | valley, but you'll be deported if you try to open a small | business or enter a different profession or even change | employers without new "sponsorship"? I find it remarkable | that so many people don't see the egregious problem here. | kiratp wrote: | I only see one role here that is even ballpark for a SWE | in SF. | | https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=&job=software+developer | &ci... | | The prevailing wage test fails to account for stock and | bonuses and is basically a joke. | mattnewton wrote: | How could it not be cheaper- H1B applicants have to | perform their jobs virtually under threat of deportation. | How are they negotiating for regular raises or stock | refreshers in that situation? How often are they changing | jobs due to poor working conditions or personal growth if | their sponsorship could be jeopardized? | diebeforei485 wrote: | The previous administration wanted to do this, but it was way | too late and they ran out of time to implement it properly - | https://insights.dice.com/2021/07/07/trump-h-1b-rule- | could-h... | | Soviet-style labor lotteries are not a good system. Those | "consulting" companies know how to abuse that system. | spangry wrote: | Why doesn't the government auction H1B visas? If H1B numbers | are capped then they are a scarce resource that should be | price-rationed so they are allocated to their most productive | use (i.e. to companies that are willing to pay the most). It | would also mean more of the gain from bringing over H1B | workers would accrue to the public instead of private | companies, which would increase public support for | immigration. | amf12 wrote: | > Thanks to "consulting" companies' abuse of H1B. | | They found the "loopholes". Given that the system is being | abused, the government hasn't made much effort in fixing it. | time_to_smile wrote: | > There is no path to a green card or citizenship for anyone | who immigrated | | One thing I find really strange as an American, is that while | our immigration system could be improved, in both China and | India there is _absolutely_ no way for a US Citizen to get | permanent residency. | | Not "it's really hard" or "takes a long time", but short of | maybe being a billionaire or world famous athlete, a non- | Chinese/Indian simply cannot permanently immigrate to these | countries. It doesn't matter if you marry someone who is a | Chinese/Indian citizen, doesn't matter if you have kids with | them, etc there is zero possibly you will be able to immigrate | to these countries. | triceratops wrote: | That doesn't seem to be true for India, at least.[1] | | People legally resident for 12 years can apply to naturalize. | And spouses can just register to get citizenship. | | 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_nationality_law#Volun | ta... | thatfrenchguy wrote: | There is a path though, you can marry someone who is from any | other country but India (even if they are not going for a | EB-2/EB-3, have a green card, or are a US citizen). You can | cross charge your employment green card to your spouse, some of | my Indian colleagues have done this, it's super rare because of | cultural expectations though. | screye wrote: | Yeah sure, let's go ahead and facilitate the 2nd biggest | decision of your life (country you work in) by compromising | on the biggest decision (marriage) of your life. | | While dating across cultural groups to find the one, is | rewarding in its own right , being that materialistic with | your choice in partner is probably going to make for shaky | foundations of a relationship. | thatfrenchguy wrote: | > by compromising on the biggest decision (marriage) of | your life. | | I don't see how that's a compromise though? The cultural | expectations are just different for folks from India: no | parent from France is expecting their kid who decided to | move to another country to be with a French person, and 90% | of immigrants from India end up marrying another immigrant | from India, even if they more to the US in their early | twenties. | margalabargala wrote: | Frankly, at the end of the day, this is better for Humanity as | a whole. | | People are coming to the US, learning about technologies, and | bringing those back to other countries with plenty of people | willing to use them. In the longer term, this will result in | more, better technology, all over the world. | | There will be more net good than if all such technology were | concentrated in the US, though the US will have less domestic | benefit than it would have otherwise. | aprdm wrote: | And for Canada | Traubenfuchs wrote: | Over 99.99% of rejected H1B applicants do not build unicorns back | home. | | What is the point here? Let them all in in case one of them makes | a unicorn? | | This is rock people thinking on the level of "every aborted baby | could have become the next Mozart". | spoonjim wrote: | Maybe shut down the southern border and instead admit more | H1Bs? And use some judgment instead of a lottery. Someone who's | been a manager at Microsoft is obviously a better bet than a | TCS bodyshopper. | immigrantheart wrote: | This is amazing! I think a lot of immigrants should really use | their talents back home, building their own country. It will be | good for everyone, for the world as well. | game_the0ry wrote: | Arguably, Asian industry (India specifically), has much more room | to grow - the west is is where things _happened_ , Asia is where | things are _happening_. | | But East and South Asians immigration will continue. Being | "westernized" (usually western education and green card) is | valuable as a source of social prestige - having a US masters | degree makes you attractive in the marriage market and in social | circles.[1] | | [1] I am South Asian. | yosito wrote: | As an American from an immigrant family, I think the US is really | losing here. We should be giving visas out liberally to any | skilled professional who wants one. Immigration is the only thing | that ever truly made the US stand out. | | On the other hand, as a global citizen with multiple passports | who hasn't lived in the US for some time, maybe this is a good | thing for the rest of the world. Spreading innovation out a bit | and allowing other countries to thrive. Growing up in an | immigrant family, I always had a sense of diversity being | America's strength. But the last decade or so the US seems to | have lost sight of the value of diversity. Not completely, but in | many ways, partially thanks to US hegemony and the export of the | English language, Europe is currently the cultural melting pot I | idealized the US as growing up. | | I think the world would truly be a more peaceful and thriving | place if every country were more culturally integrated. | | Anyway, I'm rambling now... </soapbox> | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | What is stopping people from becoming citizens? | Taniwha wrote: | These days an H1B is the first step towards getting a green | card, which in turn is the step towards citizenship | User23 wrote: | That's not actually true. H-1B is a non-immigrant visa. The | confusion is somewhat understandable though. The reason why | is that the H-1B program allows a migrant who does not | currently qualify for an immigrant visa to work in the USA | while they try to get one rather than having to wait at | home. | | It's kind of like hanging out in a fancy restaurant's bar | in hopes that they'll be able to get you a table. | dudul wrote: | It is possible to petition for a green card without an h1b. | Actually I wonder why in this story, Microsoft didn't | sponsor an employment based GC. | raitom wrote: | Because sponsoring an employment based GC takes | considerably more time than filling for an H1B. We're | talking at best less than a year for an H1B (filling in | April and you receive it in October of the same year) vs | 18 months minimum for an European (10+ years for an | Indian). | | I actually got my H1B at my 2nd try. I did not get pick | at my 1st try and had to wait until next year but it went | quite smoothly. However for my GC, it took 4 years | between the initial conversation with my employer and | getting it in my hands. The actual process itself, from | the moment the lawyers received all the documents, took 2 | years. | yosito wrote: | Via which path? | deepdriver wrote: | As an American from a non-immigrant family, I think stamping | visas is easier than fixing a broken education system, so | that's what corporate leaders would rather do. We have over 330 | million Americans in this country, many seeking good jobs and | salaries like those found in tech, yet we struggle to produce | enough qualified STEM grads and resort to importing other | countries' elites. The programming and computer science | education in most high schools is near zero. It's a national | embarrassment. And frankly, the more US companies are helmed by | new arrivals with strong ties to the mother country, the less | they feel a kinship to the majority of Americans and the less | likely they are to invest in those Americans' futures. I've | seen this preference play out firsthand inside Google and other | places. | [deleted] | hunterb123 wrote: | The US allows more immigrants than any other country. What | exactly is the criticism? | hocuspocus wrote: | Mostly through family reunion which is completely irrelevant | to the issue discussed here. | | The US has the most nonsensical immigration laws for skilled | workers of the developed world. Even Japan or Korea are | pretty straightforward in comparison. | curious_cat_163 wrote: | I don't think absolute numbers tell the story. Also, it is | not a complaint, really. | | I think the citizens in the US have a right to decide as a | polity how they want to structure their immigration policies. | However, in order to make a good decision, it is important to | start with the full context. Here are some facts: | | US has 46.6 million in foreign born population and a total | population of 333 million. [1][2] That makes about 13.9% of | the total population to be foreign born. | | Australia has 29.1% of its population that is foreign born. | [3] | | A little over 20% of the population of Canada is foreign born | and it is projected to grow. [4] | | [1] https://cis.org/Camarota/ForeignBorn-Population-Hits- | Record-... | | [2] https://www.census.gov/popclock/ | | [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign- | born_population_of_Aus... | | [4] | https://www.statcan.gc.ca/en/dai/btd/othervisuals/other006 | manuelabeledo wrote: | Discounting non immigrant visas, I'm not sure that this is | true. | lotsofpulp wrote: | The criticism is tying visa status to employer. No reason to | do that unless you want to suppress wages for US residents. | ROTMetro wrote: | That is why there are other visa types. You are talking | about a type of visa specifically intended as a mechanism | to fill a specific seat at a specific company. For other | forms of immigration, there are other types of visas. | isatty wrote: | Like what? I went over the USCIS page and Wikipedia and | there does not seem to be very many options for skilled | workers besides H and L, both of which are tied to | employers. | fooker wrote: | O1 visas are for skilled workers without getting tied to | a company. But you have to be really skilled! | kareemsabri wrote: | You don't have to be all that skilled (depending on the | field). You do need the money to self-petition though. | Many pretty average people use the O-1. | nine_zeros wrote: | > The US allows more immigrants than any other country. What | exactly is the criticism? | | The system is unbelievably cruel. People die (or see their | loved ones die) before they get greencards. | | It is not a numbers game. If you can attract the best, you | need to let them thrive instead of enslaving them. | [deleted] | outside1234 wrote: | Are you referring to the 7% cap on the number of people | that can get a green card from any one country in a | calendar year? | nine_zeros wrote: | > Are you referring to the 7% cap on the number of people | that can get a green card from any one country in a | calendar year? | | No. I am talking about the constant asking for paperwork, | processing times that vary from 2 months to over 2 years | and preventing people from traveling to their home | countries, lest they get locked out. | | This is how criminals are treated. | hunterb123 wrote: | What is the processing time for European countries? | | What would your ideal processing time be that wouldn't be | "criminal"? | nine_zeros wrote: | > What is the processing time for European countries? | | EU is not one country. Some countries have better | timelines than others. | | > What would your ideal processing time be that wouldn't | be "criminal"? | | My ideal would be asap. Make the decision quick. If you | want to deny most applications, deny it. But do it quick. | kylehotchkiss wrote: | Slow denials is a feature not a bug of immigration | systems. Fast denials with systems that allow retries | just quickly get backlogs of people applying again after | finding a quick fix to the rejection reason, which makes | it harder to give proper time to new applicants who may | be more eligible. | hunterb123 wrote: | My point was to compare European countries as they were | suggested by the GP to be better. | | Go ahead and choose one or so and come back with numbers | to compare. You'll find the US is very good in | comparison. | manuelabeledo wrote: | Germany offers a shorter and significantly cheaper path | to citizenship, for instance. | hocuspocus wrote: | Plus incredibly easier paths to immigration on a skilled | work permit and access to permanent residence. Like most | EU countries. | [deleted] | hunterb123 wrote: | > The system is unbelievably cruel. People die (or see | their loved ones die) before they get greencards. | | People die before many things, that's not really relevant | and it's just an emotional statement. Compare the length | and rate to other countries for an actual assessment. | | A lot countries I've looked into take 5-10 years for | citizenship, the US is 14.5 months on average. | | I'm talking about the amount of immigrants taken in vs | other countries. Yes the US is large and can take in a lot | of immigrants, and we do, by far. | darth_avocado wrote: | >14.5 months on average | | The system is different for everyone. It depends on visa | types, country of origin and a bunch of other factors. | | Also, the 14.5 months on average is just the time it | takes for USCIS to process the N400 application for | naturalization. The actual time it takes for the | naturalization is 18-24 months. And the biggest part that | comes before you apply for naturalization for most | immigrants is to obtain a Greencard, which takes the | longest time, in some cases more than a few decades. | bialpio wrote: | I'm not sure where you got the 14.5 months from. This is | roughly how much time it took for my citizenship | application to get processed, but it does not include the | 5 year period of being a permanent resident (and applying | for it also took ~1.5 years). Total time from setting my | foot in the US on H-1B to getting citizenship was roughly | 8.5 years. | lemiant wrote: | This shows a shocking level of ignorance about the US | immigration system. | | Just straight off the bat you need to be a resident for 5 | years before you can even apply for citizenship ( | https://www.uscis.gov/forms/explore-my-options/become-a- | us-c... ). | | The full process is the better part of a decade in the | best case (e.g. expensive lawyers, STEM degree, | immigrating from an easy country like Canada). If you're | from a country like China or India where lots of other | people are also applying for those slots - or if anything | else is less than optimal - you're looking at between a | decade+ and never. | shard wrote: | You can shorten the time you need to be a resident to 3 | years by marrying a US citizen: | https://www.uscis.gov/citizenship/learn-about- | citizenship/ci... | kylehotchkiss wrote: | Yes, US citizens can sponsor foreign nationals both | within and outside the USA for green cards through | marriage. The process itself (current status or no | status) to green card easily takes 2 years. Once that | person arrives, they can get citizenship (not residency) | within 3 years. | | The sentence structure though seems to imply marrying | solely for status, which is fraud, and reflects very | poorly on both applicant and petitioner. This kind of | thing definitely happens which is why it takes 2 years | for the honest applicants to get though, as the | immigration system doesn't do a sufficient job filtering | out fraud at the beginning stages of the petition and | leaves too much of that work at the end of the petition | stage (interview) which is where the biggest bottleneck | is. | | source: personal experience as petitioner | shard wrote: | No implication to promote the commitment of fraud, simply | stating a fact to correct the previous comment. | UncleMeat wrote: | And for an Indian citizen, you might wait for 50 years | for a green card. | manuelabeledo wrote: | > A lot countries I've looked into take 5-10 years for | citizenship, the US is 14.5 months on average. | | Year 6 here in the US, need to wait another 5 for the | chance of becoming a citizen. | | What's that path you are talking about? | nine_zeros wrote: | > Most countries I've looked into take up to 10 years. | | The set of countries you want to compare with are the | countries that claim they want to welcome immigrants. You | don't want to compare with countries that you like but | are hostile. | | America claims to be immigrant friendly but compared to | other immigrant friendly nations, the process is brutal | and eats away entire lives. | | > A lot countries I've looked into take 5-10 years for | citizenship, the US is 14.5 months on average. | | This is misinformation as citizenship petition N-400 is | merely the last step. This does not count the time for | green card before this. Getting a green card could take | 3-10 years. Then, they'd need to remain a permanent | resident for 5 years before they can even apply for | citizenship. | hunterb123 wrote: | No 14.5 months is the average for naturalization. | | https://www.boundless.com/immigration-resources/how-long- | doe... | | Total time is 18.5-24 months to wrap up everything, but | the 14.5 months you're able to be in the US which is what | matters. | | How does that compare to other countries? What's your | ideal country that has the best immigration times? | | - edit - | | Green card from nil is also just a year or so on average, | in which case you are living in the US and able to work. | | These numbers are very comparable and much better than | most countries. Please provide your ideal country so we | can compare numbers. | ra7 wrote: | Green card to naturalization is not the same as going | from visa to green card. | qaq wrote: | You have to reside for 5 years on GC first. It can take | years for GC to get processed so overall at present it | can be close to 10 years. | cardine wrote: | The parent tweet is someone from India. | | Current green card wait times are approximately 10 | years[1] right now. Given the length of the green card | wait time you usually need some other visa (such as H1B) | that will allow you to still live in the USA before you | can actually apply for green card. | | Currently the H1B lottery approves less than half of the | people who apply. | | So if you are trying to immigrate from India you are | looking at: H1B (1-4 years depending lottery luck) Green | Card (10+ years) Time to become US citizen (1-2 years | from what you posted) | | So as a highly skilled advanced degree holder from India | (the case of this Tweet) the overall time is 12-16 years | and that is still no guarantee due to H1B being a | lottery. | | [1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country- | rankings/green-car... (See EB-2 and EB-3) | thisoneworks wrote: | Better source: | | 54 years for eb2/eb3. And that was 2019 backlog. Covid | should've added half a decade more | | https://www.cato.org/publications/policy- | analysis/immigratio... | z2 wrote: | Here's a better, more holistic overview, in case you want | to see what starting "from nil" actually entails (hint: | you don't just step off a plane and tell Uncle Sam that | you want to be a citizen): | | https://immigrationroad.com/green-card/immigration- | flowchart... | | > The time it takes to become a permanent resident varies | dramatically, affected by many factors such as USCIS | processing, visa availability, labor | certification/background check delays, the applicant's | qualifications, nationality, residence, profession, luck, | and so on. Most people are probably looking at 5 - 15 | years. Some also spent several years in a nonimmigrant | status prior to starting the immigration process. After | green card, add roughly 5 - 7 years towards citizenship | | In addition to the time, as others said there's a high | probability the path will fail for most. The process | starts with winning a visa that allows you to immigrate | (tourist/business/student visas don't count). I say "win" | because you need to find a company willing to pay and | apply for that on your behalf, go through a lottery based | on degree to see if you even get the opportunity to | apply, and then hope the application isn't rejected on | the grounds of the job being something a U.S. citizen can | do. if you studied in the U.S., you get 1-2 more years to | work under your student visa on what's called "Optional | Practical Training" to convince your employer you're | worth the hassle of sponsoring an immigration visa. Once | you have that visa (e.g., an H-1B visa), you have 3 years | to try rise to a senior position and convince your | employer that you are valuable enough to splurge on a | green card application. If that fails, you can apply for | a 3 year extension and try again. If that also fails, you | must leave the country for at least a year, and start | over. If you succeed, you wait some number of years | depending on your birth country and quotas imposed on | each before you get the chance to start applying for a | green card and get this process rolling. Hence 10-22 | years, for those lucky few who didn't get rejected at any | of the aforementioned points. | aidenn0 wrote: | What always boggled my mind is we allow students to come study | in the University system, but then when they graduate send them | away. I suspect a platform of "We will train foreigners to | enrich their homelands" wouldn't get much popular support, but | it's the de-facto rule we live under. | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | What do you mean we send them away? Should we hold them | against their will? If they want to stay there are ways to | stay. | dataexporter wrote: | I am not sure if you are responding with actual information | or just anecdata. There are hundreds of thousands of | students who actually want to work in the US but are unable | to (and are sent back) because of H1B Visa lotteries and | archaic green card processes. | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | I'm not saying the US immigration system is perfect but | there were apparently 855,000 new naturalized citizens in | 2021. Somebody is figuring it out. | | Also- the US doesn't owe everybody a citizenship. | thisoneworks wrote: | Majority of them are family based as opposed to | employment based, so your point is invalid | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | How much of a majority? | modriano wrote: | As a citizen of the US, I like having a vibrant tech economy | here in the US and I love working with brilliant people, so I | would like it if everyone educated in our world class | universities could stay here if they wanted. Also as a | citizen of the US who likes stability in the US, I like that | the children of elites all over the world come to the US for | university and many return to their native countries with a | fondness for the US from their time in our universities. | | As a citizen of the world, I think there's tremendous value | in distributing knowledge and our best ideals all over the | world. | innagadadavida wrote: | Even more confusing is why we then have 100k immigrants that | are randomly selected with unknown skills from all over the | world to come here and take up things like driving taxis. All | the while we have labor shortages for basic things like | nannies and baby sitters. | bruceb wrote: | How many families are going to leave their child with a | uber driver? | solveit wrote: | The mental model many people seem to have is "foreigners will | pay us exorbitant amounts of tuition for a prestigious | diploma, and education isn't actually valuable so we might as | well send them back home". | | And it's only mildly surprising people think this way. The | median American does seem to go through an educational system | that takes all their money and gives them a diploma without | actually providing valuable expertise in anything. But the | experience is exactly the opposite for the best immigrants, | who only sometimes pay much tuition (PhDs in STEM in | particular very rarely pay with anything other than their | labor as teaching/research assistants), and gain enormously | valuable expertise. It's completely asinine, but perhaps not | so surprising. | sokoloff wrote: | The median American 25 or older has less than an associates | (2-year) degree. | | https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press- | releases/2022/educatio... | yuppiepuppie wrote: | What's funny is that my (foreign) wife got her masters at a | state school in the US with a US scholarship and was sent | back after she graduated. | ipaddr wrote: | Many US scholarship comes from private money. So having a | scholarship doesn't automatically grant citizenship or | people would abuse the system and limits would need to be | placed on students studying. | cinntaile wrote: | I don't think there is any country in the world that | gives citizenship based on a grant. These people just | want a chance at finding a relevant job in the US using | their newly earned skills. | bcrosby95 wrote: | This is a weird take considering most states offer tuition | breaks for people that live in that state. If this is | really how people felt about these schools you would think | they would be boycotting their mere existence considering | they cost a lot of state tax dollars to fund. | jldugger wrote: | I mean, its a complicated and slow process. State funding | of colleges has been on decline for ages -- every time a | recession hits the university system gets another budget | cut but its rare to see the cuts restored when the | economy recovers. | | Meanwhile the median voter is probably more excited about | college sports than college degrees. | beckingz wrote: | University system is an export. We can't export it if they | stay. | thechao wrote: | This is _precisely_ what the Fulbright scholarship program is | for: | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulbright_Program | newsclues wrote: | If developed nations with top tier education systems attract | the best talent from the developing world and retain them | all, who is going to develop and grow the economy, workforce | and consumer markets of the developing world? | thehappypm wrote: | It's tough because many of our societal problems are only | exacerbated by population growth, especially in the areas where | these types of workers tend to congregate. Highly skilled | workers don't go to the Midwest or the deep south. They go and | drive up rental prices in New York and San Francisco, where the | jobs are. Well the first order effects of having a more skilled | in competitive work for us are good, the second order effects | can be very very negative and we got to be careful about that | jedberg wrote: | I work with a bunch of highly skilled immigrants. They live | in Texas, Kentucky, Colorado, and a bunch of other places. | Now that remote work is prevalent, people are moving to all | sorts of places. | jimmaswell wrote: | > Highly skilled workers don't go to the Midwest or the deep | south. | | This is certainly changing. I myself am moving to a rural | area to work remotely and farm. | thehappypm wrote: | The statistics don't really bear that it's happening at | scale, but it's great for you to make that change. | bluGill wrote: | There are enough immigrants in Des Moines to have a Hindi | temple. Immigrants go everywhere, nnot just your little | corner | sngz wrote: | as another American from an immigrant family. I think getting | an H1-B should be easier, not tied to a company, and require | companies to pay them more than a citizen. This prevents a lot | of the abuse I see right now to people on H1-B's, staying with | jobs that they hate, and prevents wage suppression in the | industry for others. | digianarchist wrote: | Why would a H1-B stay in a job they hate? The visa is | actually portable unlike TN, E3 or L1. | js2 wrote: | > As an American from an immigrant family, I think the US is | really losing here. We should be giving visas out liberally to | any skilled professional who wants one. | | As an American whose great-grandparents immigrated here from | Eastern Europe, I agree the US is really losing here. We should | be giving visas out liberally to anyone who wants one. No need | to restrict it to skilled professionals. | jimmaswell wrote: | Alternate viewpoint, we have more than enough students | graduating in Computer Science and other STEM fields, many of | whom have a hard time finding a job because most companies | don't want to invest in training anyone up anymore, and they're | enabled by the H1B program. If we incentivized/forced companies | to build people up from basic college graduate again, it would | be even better than finding skilled immigrants. | nxmnxm99 wrote: | The average H1B is more talented than the average American | STEM graduate. That's why they're having trouble getting | jobs. | KerrAvon wrote: | You're basing that assertion on what data? If that's really | the case, our schools need to do a better job of | prioritizing entrants into STEM classes -- talk to a | prospective CS student at Stanford or Berkeley and ask them | how easy it is to get into the program, for example. | mywittyname wrote: | H1B employees cost a lot more to employ than fresh grads. On | top of having to pay above average wage, companies have to | employ lawyers to handle a lot of paperwork. | | > most companies don't want to invest in training anyone up | anymore | | The past four companies I've worked for had training programs | for new employees and internship programs to funnel college | students into jobs after graduation. Maybe bad experience on | your part? | atwood22 wrote: | Do H1Bs really earn above average wage? Haven't seen that. | Overall, H1Bs increase the labor supply, which decreases | the price of labor. | soniman wrote: | So brain drain is bad (when it happens to Russia) but good (when | the US does it to India)? India is a desperately poor country | that needs Indian entrepreneurs. It's ridiculous to frame this as | a loss to the US. It is a loss to the world if the desperately | poor in India are never lifted out of poverty by their own best | and brightest. The US should encourage them to stay in India. | xiaodai wrote: | it's a bit sad to lose talent like this. Wonder how we can | attract talents like this to Australia? I guess the market isn't | big enough but selling software is easily an international | business so in Aus we have some powerhouse software companiest | too like Atlassian and Canva ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-08-23 23:00 UTC)