[HN Gopher] Spate of polio outbreaks worldwide puts scientists o...
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Spate of polio outbreaks worldwide puts scientists on alert
Author : Brajeshwar
Score : 70 points
Date : 2022-08-24 15:49 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nature.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nature.com)
| t0bia_s wrote:
| Similar story from 1955 - Cutter incident.
|
| The mistake produced 120,000 doses of polio vaccine that
| contained live polio virus. Of children who received the vaccine,
| 40,000 developed abortive poliomyelitis (a form of the disease
| that does not involve the central nervous system), 56 developed
| paralytic poliomyelitis--and of these, five children died from
| polio.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutter_Laboratories
| gregwebs wrote:
| If you understand the limitations of the two types of vaccines,
| then polio showing up in the wastewater in international cities
| seems expected.
|
| The US and England vaccinate with the non-live version. This non-
| live version cannot mutate, but it is non-sterilizing- the
| vaccinated can still become infected in their gut- the vaccine
| prevents it from getting into their bloodstream and becoming
| poliomyelitis.
|
| So Polio will continue to spread among the fully vaccinated going
| unnoticed- particularly in international cities where they can
| import new cases. And we have seen a tragic outcome where someone
| is not vaccinated and ends up acquiring poliomyelitis.
| Nokinside wrote:
| It's only when you have low enough vaccine coverage that the
| strains can circulate. Rockland County, NY where it first
| started in the US had only 60% vaccine coverage.
|
| Children missing vaccine appointments due Covid19 and pockets
| of vaccine hesitancy have created this situation. For example,
| Hasidic Jews have anti-vaxxer tendencies.
| aaaaaaaaaaab wrote:
| last_responder wrote:
| Large cites with lots of people perhaps?
| loriverkutya wrote:
| Nope, cities where there are orthodox jewish communities
| where nobody is vaccinated.
| aaaaaaaaaaab wrote:
| aqme28 wrote:
| Please, what are you trying to say?
| hahaitsfunny wrote:
| Probably that Zionist Israel's longtime allies are also
| reporting the virus in their countries. Many theorize the
| Rothschilds still run things, via the WEF and other NGOs and
| that Zionists in Israel were behind COVID-19 and are the real
| movers and shakers. At least it sounds like it's following
| the lines of this conspiracy / theory to me.
| Vecr wrote:
| Concentrations of religious people, probably.
| gallow1956 wrote:
| baggy_trough wrote:
| Who is it?
| aaaaaaaaaaab wrote:
| chihuahua wrote:
| It's like the scene in Monty Python's Life of Brian where no
| one is allowed to say "Jehovah."
| debacle wrote:
| Generally religious fundamentalists.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| Is it true more-or-less that the technology chains involved in
| the USA/Western Covid-19 vaccines, are under development as a
| 'platform' for new, novel treatments for a wide range of illness?
| Is it possible that the billions upon billions of dollars that
| have changed hands in the last thirty months, are an incentive to
| "pile on" new treatments, and perhaps new required treatments in
| the future?
| robbiep wrote:
| Wtf are you getting at? Yes mRNA vaccines are under development
| for many many other diseases. It's a new technology. Would you
| expect the invention of a new technology to have a single
| application and then be put on a shelf somewhere, perhaps in
| that secret government warehouse where they store the Ark, and
| maybe the Lindbergh baby?
|
| FYI mRNA vaccines were first developed 5-10 years prior to the
| events of the past few years, and deployed in veterinary
| medicine. Having a global pandemic led to the urgency to adapt
| them to human conditions where they have saved millions of
| lives
| makomk wrote:
| I don't think anyone's tried to push mRNA vaccines for polio
| yet, and if they did it would be a really obvious swindle -
| they'd run right into the same problems with the vaccines not
| being sterilizing that we already did with Covid and with the
| existing, well-tested inactivated polio vaccines. In principle
| it's more or less the same problem even (inadequate mucosal
| immune response, though in different mucosa...)
| CatWChainsaw wrote:
| kmeisthax wrote:
| I'm not sure what you're talking about. The article is very
| explicit that the current polio outbreak is poliovirus derived
| from live-virus vaccines.
|
| The only obvious conclusion is that people who can get a polio
| vaccine but didn't should reconsider getting it, because the
| virus is spreading again and herd immunity against polio has
| collapsed. Even the vaccine that is implicated in the outbreak
| still provides protection against polio at lower risk than
| getting infected; so it's not as simple as "just stop using the
| oral vaccine".
| platz wrote:
| What is the obvious?
| adhesive_wombat wrote:
| Impressive that one can write a sentence that can be validly
| parsed as "vaccination is a good idea" and "vaccination is a
| bad idea".
|
| Though I'd say the obvious takeaway is that vaccination is
| still a good idea even if you don't personally know anyone
| who was disabled by whatever it protects against.
| ptsneves wrote:
| I cannot understand how vaccination is a liberty thing. This is
| akin to an hiv infected person exercising the freedom of having
| non consensual unprotected sex. Or having freedom to defecate in
| common areas. There is a fine or detention for public exposure
| yet our society believes it is fine to expose others with their
| own dangerous fantasies.
|
| I am so tired of people claiming freedom to do this and that, and
| never considering others that want to be free of. I want to be
| free of solved diseases. I want to be free of life threatening
| illnesses so I can be alive and not living in an iron lung.
| Idiocracy all the way.
|
| We drank so much of our own freedom kool aid that we are getting
| literally sick of it.
|
| Non vaccination should become not possible unless there are
| medical reasons.
| debacle wrote:
| You have no authority over someone else's body. It sucks, but
| it's reality.
|
| Education is hard. Deradicalization is even harder. But it's
| something we need to learn how to do again as a society.
|
| Some of the vaccine conspiracy theories are truly insane, but
| medical patriarchy is not the answer.
| msbarnett wrote:
| > You have no authority over someone else's body. It sucks,
| but it's reality.
|
| This is obviously untrue: the state can lock up and kill you,
| is currently asserting its right to restrict people from
| having abortions performed on them, and has been increasingly
| aggressive about attack peoples' right to undergo hormone
| replacement therapy, among many many other examples.
| Mandatory vaccination has very much been something the state
| has historically exercised its powers to enforce, quite
| successfully in the case of smallpox.
|
| We're extremely inconsistent about what authority we exercise
| over others' bodies, generally, but we're a very far cry from
| never exercising it or acting as if doing so were simply
| beyond the pale.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| agreeing generally with that sentiment, as a WEIRD though
| (western-educated-industrialized-rich). Many social systems
| on Earth today do not have nearly the individual autonomy
| that is normal to some readers here. Those social systems are
| stable in some way. Big sailing ships and steam-powered
| railroad engines aside, there is no absolute truth here.
| debacle wrote:
| True. My Asian friends would say to me "What do you mean
| patriarchy isn't the answer?"
| bawolff wrote:
| > You have no authority over someone else's body. It sucks,
| but it's reality.
|
| That's obviously untrue. For example the state claims the
| right to confine (and sometimes even execute) the body of
| people convicted of murder. And most people are ok with that.
|
| Where the line is, is of course a complicated question, but
| the absolute version where the state cannot ever control
| people at all, is obviously false.
| hahaitsfunny wrote:
| goatcode wrote:
| It may seem simple, but there is a deep rabbit hole when you
| pair liberty and things seen to reduce the impact of illness on
| a population. For example: it is statistically more likely for
| homosexual men to have HIV and other fatal transmissible
| illnesses. Therefore, they should not be free to donate blood,
| so goes the tradition, since this overall increases the health
| of a population. This rule has come under contention lately,
| and if you agree that gay men should be able to donate blood,
| you now have a counterexample. Notwithstanding of course the
| arguments about better testing, and so on; statistically: it
| helps.
|
| I'm not presenting an argument in either direction. I'm simply
| saying it's a more complex issue than "this thing makes
| everyone healthier, therefore it should be law."
| californiadreem wrote:
| There is a very small escalation needed to make the jump from
| the concept of collective negative liberty ("freedom from
| disease") to involuntary treatment resulting in Nazi-aligned
| pogroms for collective hygiene. That step is typically cloaked
| with good intentions and then used mercilessly without
| compunction by any inheritors of the system.
| makomk wrote:
| Also, in the real non-hypothetical world, the previous forced
| vaccination campaigns were the precident that lead to Buck v.
| Bell and forcible eugenic sterilization of people deemed
| unfit to have children in the USA. Which, in turn, directly
| inspired Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. Back in the day the ACLU
| used to be opposed to forced vaccination for exactly this
| reason (including arguing that forced vaccination for
| smallpox was an unnecessary and counter-productive attack on
| civil liberties). As far as I can tell the people involved
| changed their minds for purely partisan reasons; there is no
| intellectual justification to go from there to supporting
| mandatory Covid vaccination and they gave none.
| MonkeyMalarky wrote:
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _akin to an hiv infected person exercising the freedom of
| having non consensual unprotected sex_
|
| I think the voluntarily (EDIT: polio) unvaccinated are misled
| or idiots, but this is a bad comparison. Non-consensual sex is
| violence. Full stop. We can start arguing that giving people an
| infectious disease is _like_ violence, or this or that, mais
| _ceci n 'est pas une pipe._
|
| What it _is_ analogous to is getting "stranded after driving
| around barricades to enter a flooded stretch of roadway" [1].
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stupid_motorist_law
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| > What it is analogous to is getting "stranded after driving
| around barricades to enter a flooded stretch of roadway"
|
| Kind of? But in this case somehow the driver is driving a
| bus, or their car is pulling other cars in due to gravity, or
| something? A motorist who ends up on a flooded motorway
| endangers themselves and some first responders - which yes,
| is dumb, but after that initial ripple it doesn't continue to
| propagate the problem to other people. You can't spread car
| stranding.
| t0bia_s wrote:
| My body, my choice. Do you agree?
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _My body, my choice. Do you agree?_
|
| Broadly speaking, yes. The narrow point here is on how to
| deal with choices that hurt others. On the prescriptive
| side, we could foreclose that choice. That's mandatory
| vaccination. On the reactive side, we can assign liability.
| That's the point of my analogy.
| Silverback_VII wrote:
| Herd immunity for sars-cov-2 may have become impossible in highly
| vaccinated regions due to maladaptive immune response.
|
| Now we have the problem that people constantly get reinfected in
| omicron waves which puts a heavy burden on the immune system and
| damages the system.
| noselasd wrote:
| On the upside, that is not an issue for polio vaccine.
| debacle wrote:
| It's hard to talk about the COVID vaccine in the context of
| other vaccines.
|
| The history of our attempts at developing traditional vaccines
| for this type of virus goes back 50 years, and we've been very
| unsuccessful at it, not for lack of trying.
|
| I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that we wont ever be
| able to develop a vaccine for this type of virus in the same
| manner that we have for e.g. polio.
| Metacelsus wrote:
| Note, this is vaccine-derived polio. This is when the oral polio
| vaccine (which uses a live poliovirus) mutates and reverts to a
| more virulent form. This version of the polio vaccine is rather
| outdated, and in fact a new one with much better genetic
| stability is already being produced.
| https://polioeradication.org/nopv2/
|
| We really need to switch away from the old vaccine ASAP.
| makomk wrote:
| A lot of the news coverage dances around the issue, but the
| direct cause of this actually seems to be a catastrophically
| failed attempt to switch away from the previous polio vaccine.
| Vaccine-derived poliovirus outbreaks used to be pretty rare
| because the vaccine kept them under control, but there was
| always the fear that some war or other disruption to
| vaccination would trigger a major outbreak. So the WHO came up
| with a plan: everyone around the world would stop using oral
| polio vaccines with the type 2 poliovirus components (which is
| the main culprit and protects against a variant that's been
| eradicated in the wild), they'd estroy all their old trivalent
| vaccines and switch to bivalent type 1 and 3 ones, any
| outbreaks of vaccine-derived poliovirus would be mopped up with
| a special type 2 only vaccine reserved for that purpose, and
| then it'd be gone for good. Instead vaccine-derived poliovirus
| outbreaks exploded all over the world. The nOPV2 vaccine was
| then rushed out through development and into production to try
| and patch up the mess. (In theory they could've just switched
| back to the old vaccine temporarily, but that would mean
| admitting failure and besides they didn't have the big
| stockpiles of it anymore.)
| debacle wrote:
| Is this vaccine-derived polio "medically resistant" (or vaccine
| resistant), or does it just infect people who may have waning
| immunity, no immunity, etc?
| HarryHirsch wrote:
| The latter - it is attenuated virus from the live oral
| vaccine that has reverted to a form causing paralysis. Both
| forms of the polio vaccine are still effective against it.
|
| <s>Why worry? Poliomyelitis is mild, most cases are
| asymptomatic, only one in 200 cases result in paralysis, and
| fatality rates are even lower.</s>
| [deleted]
| _s wrote:
| From my understanding - there are two main "strains" for polio;
| one that is "wild"; endemic to Afghanistan and Pakistan, and one
| derived from the oral vaccine, endemic in Africa and a lot of
| conflict zones, from Asia to Europe to Central / Southern
| Americas.
|
| The oral vaccine in use in a lot of the world contains a weakened
| version of the virus, and allows your body to fight it off
| without any negative effects. This is usually a 3 or 4 course
| vaccine.
|
| This specifically engineered weakened virus has been shown to
| mutate and infect other partially or non vaccinated individuals,
| including causing paralysis, and is the one now popping up in
| more developed / inoculated areas - but again, in unvaccinated
| individuals.
|
| Note - from what I have read, you can still get and spread polio
| even if you are vaccinated (much like Covid), but it's an
| incredibly low chance - and furthermore, your risk of serious
| disease / paralysis / death is even lower (so we know the
| vaccines work). The oral vaccine (weakened virus) efficacy is
| much higher than the injected (inactive virus) vaccine too, and
| boosters are offered for those who had the vaccines as children
| and are now adults.
|
| There is also another oral vaccine, with a weakened virus, that
| has been engineered to prevent certain mutations that cause it to
| spread (if I read some articles correctly), but is not currently
| approved for use in the US / UK.
|
| Polio was one of the first few horrible diseases almost
| eradicated by vaccines. Whatever your stance on getting
| vaccinated, do understand that Polio has a 1 in 200 chance of
| resulting in severe symptoms and paralysis, and there is no
| treatment for it - only prevention via inoculation. It is not
| like Covid where mostly the older, more immunocompromised suffer
| - it will ravage children and healthy adults too.
| pm90 wrote:
| Im tired of saying this but it's absolutely mind boggling how
| fucked up it is that one of the main exports from America today
| is vaccine hesitancy.
|
| Science skepticism has always been a thing; its only in recent
| years though that internet has allowed the rapid spread of
| disinformation. Glossy content created for misinforming
| Americans inspires copycats in other countries. It's really
| depressing.
| ryandrake wrote:
| You're very kind calling it "hesitancy", too! I know that's
| the soft euphemism that the media has coalesced around, but
| "hesitancy" implies that one is on the fence, unsure, open to
| debate and open to being convinced. That's not what America
| is exporting.
|
| America's Anti-Vax movement is religiously sure of itself.
| They aren't on the fence. They're not weighing the pros and
| cons. They're convinced that they know the secret capital-T
| Truth, and that spreading their gospel saves lives. COVID
| brought it mainstream, but if you look back at the "Anti-vax
| Moms groups" long before COVID, there was still no hesitancy.
| Their minds were also made up.
| anigbrowl wrote:
| This seems to be a international effort, sadly. Article is
| also pre-covid.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6137759/
| VLM wrote:
| > religiously sure of itself
|
| There's a lot of projecting going on.
| mongol wrote:
| I understand it as they have faith in their beliefs
| despite lack of scientific evidence
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _America 's Anti-Vax movement is religiously sure of
| itself. They aren't on the fence. They're not weighing the
| pros and cons._
|
| This is the activist wing of the movement. Many more
| Americans are genuinely, in many cases reasonably,
| hesitant.
| swatcoder wrote:
| > Science skepticism has always been a thing; its only in
| recent years though that internet has allowed the rapid
| spread of disinformation. Glossy content created for
| misinforming Americans inspires copycats in other countries.
| It's really depressing.
|
| It may be depressing, but it's not helpful to associate it
| with "science skepticism".
|
| The vaccine "hesitant" you refer to are not skeptical of
| _science_. They freely use the language and processes of
| science as their argument. You or I may think they misuse the
| language, make unconvincing assumptions, etc, but there 's
| nothing to it that's skeptical of science.
|
| Where vaccine hesitancy is rooted in science skepticism, you
| see the hesitant relying on alternative means of knowing why
| vaccines aren't right for them. You can think of the classic
| faith healing communities like Christian Scientists and
| Jehovah's Witnesses as an example of that.
|
| The contagious skepticism that you're talking about is of
| _institutions_ and _authority_. They don 't trust Fauci or
| the CDC or the WHO or Pfizer or whomever to to communicate
| honestly, objectively, and in their own interests. They
| believe that these institutions can not be trusted to
| communicate scientific knowledge free of political bias.
|
| And when you look at it that way, _of course_ America is the
| exporter of that. While responsible for founding some
| impressive modern institutions, the founding myth of the
| nation is all about skepticism of institution and authority.
| The country is constitutionally designed to live in perpetual
| tension with itself, and that 's what's getting exported now.
| bawolff wrote:
| > They freely use the language and processes of science as
| their argument. You or I may think they misuse the
| language, make unconvincing assumptions, etc, but there's
| nothing to it that's skeptical of science.
|
| Words are different than the things they refer to. Using
| "sciency" words doesn't neccesarily mean people are
| following the scientific method just like how soverign
| citizens aren't actually lawyers.
|
| What matters is the meaning of the words, not what they
| superficially sound like.
|
| * to be clear, im not saying that all antivaccine people
| are neccesarily anti-science, just that the superficial
| form of the words they use is irrelavent.
| swatcoder wrote:
| Sure, but practicing science poorly, or communicating
| about it naively, is not the same as being science
| skeptical or anti-science. That's the point.
|
| If it helps to situate it in a different truth system:
| Heresy may be _wrong_ according to the prevailing
| doctrine or _theologically unsound_ , but it's still
| operating within the religious system of belief.
|
| Professing belief unitarianism is not atheism, and making
| unconvincing or unsound scientific arguments is not anti-
| science.
| tzs wrote:
| Jehovah's Witnesses are not a faith healing community and
| their religion is not anti-vaccination [1] [2]. Christian
| Scientists do first turn to prayer for healing, but it is
| not part of the dogma. Their church is fine with members
| who get vaccinated [3].
|
| [1] https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/wp20101001/Do-
| Jehova...
|
| [2] https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jw-
| vaccines-imm...
|
| [3] https://www.christianscience.com/press-
| room/a-christian-scie...
| retox wrote:
| Can you expand on what you mean by 'The country is
| constitutionally designed to live in perpetual tension with
| itself'?
|
| Let's also not lose sight of the fake vaccine operation run
| by the CIA in Pakistan to catch Bin Laden.
| https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-
| vacci...
| bvoq wrote:
| Yeah, I wish it was only America, but the UK have their own
| antivaxx propagandists. What's the motivation behind this
| anyways? Aren't there other topics to make money off off,
| like spreading flat earth information?
| Nokinside wrote:
| Some old pictures of what it looked like in hospitals:
| https://www.google.com/search?source=univ&tbm=isch&q=images+...
|
| Horrible disease.
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