[HN Gopher] Creativity requires solitude
___________________________________________________________________
Creativity requires solitude
Author : dbrereton
Score : 173 points
Date : 2022-08-25 16:04 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (dkb.show)
(TXT) w3m dump (dkb.show)
| microflash wrote:
| Creativity requires a frame of mind. For some, this frame
| realizes in the solitude. For others, it may be lo-fi music, a
| movie with mindless action and forgettable story, knitting,
| fishing, etc.
|
| In personal experience, I thrive with interactions; sometimes
| less and sometimes more. Other people's ideas spark new
| perspectives and reveal the limits of my thought canvas. Solitude
| just makes me lonely and depressed.
| nonoesp wrote:
| I enjoyed Cal Newport's point in Digital Minimalism, that
| "solitude is necessary to thrive as a human being."
|
| In his book, Newport argues that modernity is at odds with
| solitude and talks about the disadvantages of solitude
| deprivation.
| Karrot_Kream wrote:
| The problem is not everyone has the same needs for solitude. My
| partner draws a lot and finds it depressing to work on
| isolation. She frequently shows up in low-key social situations
| with art equipment and works as she talks.
|
| Newport's message always lands on the people that crave
| solitude the most. _Some_ people work this way. I tend to work
| much better alone, distraction-free. But it 's a dangerous game
| to take anecdata that speaks to yourself and extrapolate it out
| to an entire species with very different societies and cultural
| contexts.
| DiggyJohnson wrote:
| Agreed, glad to see it put so bluntly. I'd extend it to say that
| creativity requires solitude, but is bolstered and course
| corrected by interjections of collaboration.
|
| For me, my creative project is writing a non-fiction book. YMMV,
| as a sibling comment about musician's jam sessions indicates.
| angst_ridden wrote:
| I think generalizing on creativity is difficult. There can be
| incredible creative synergies when people work together. There
| can be impressive solo works.
|
| A lot depends on the individual(s) in question, their
| background(s), and the type of endeavor.
| wly_cdgr wrote:
| alexashka wrote:
| Solitude is necessary, but not sufficient.
|
| It does sound catchy and inspires introspection - focusing on a
| single word/quality/idea. As long as we know that that is the
| game being played here and don't take it literally.
| paulpauper wrote:
| This is why I think the so-called loneliness epidemic is either
| overblown or does not exist. We see that as soon as people get
| some money and autonomy, what do they do? They isolate. People
| spend a huge premium, such as business or first class plane
| tickets, stadium box seating, vacation retreats, man caves, etc.
| to isolate from other people. There is no shortage of ways for
| humans to interact with other humans, yet we see people choose to
| isolate, like netflix or smart phones.
| mindwok wrote:
| My impression of the loneliness epidemic is that people only
| 'choose' to isolate once they have money and autonomy because
| it is easy, not because it is truly something they enjoy.
|
| At least that's true for me. Organising things socially and
| then participating in social events, with all the awkward
| moments and crappy small talk, is painful and at times
| daunting. But I know after it, I feel enriched and over time it
| builds strong relationships that add huge amounts of joy to my
| life. But as we have more and more excuses not to put ourselves
| through this, like endless Netflix or smart phones, we end up
| not doing it and feeling lonely.
| commandlinefan wrote:
| This seems very opinion based - I would say that it does sort of
| match my own experience, though. Being alone at the house (on
| those rare occasions) watching TV or browsing the internet
| doesn't inspire much creativity on my part. Taking the dog out
| for a long walk in the woods does - for me it's more the lack of
| distractions than it is the "solitude" part.
| [deleted]
| oldstrangers wrote:
| The actual creative work might involve solitude (I do better with
| less distractions), but brainstorming sessions with other people
| are incredibly useful for finding new ideas and perspectives
| you'd have missed on your own.
| revskill wrote:
| Not at all. Creativity requires a base knowledge. To have a base
| knowledge on a topic you need practice from your mentor.
| Creativity doesn't happen from thin air.
| trombone5000 wrote:
| I don't think that's true; there are many self-taught artists.
| svnt wrote:
| But there also aren't any. Just because another human didn't
| directly instruct them doesn't mean they are self-taught.
|
| Information is hiding everywhere.
| revskill wrote:
| That's why i said "Not at all".
| luqtas wrote:
| i think it does! but the more background on you have, the
| easier to happen...
| moffkalast wrote:
| > Humans are fundamentally solitary. That is our nature
|
| Amazing, every word of what that guy said is wrong.
|
| Maybe he was actually talking about cats, that would make sense.
| But humans literally can't function outside of a society.
| failTide wrote:
| I think the stronger interpretation is that as sapient beings,
| we're each our own 'island universe' as Huxley said in 'The
| Doors of Perception' - I believe it's also a big concept in zen
| practice.
| atoav wrote:
| I mean there _are_ people like that. As someone teaching at an
| art university this is something I observe frequently.
|
| The caveat being: there are also people who are the polar
| opposite, so the global scope of that statement is indeed a bit
| to broad.
|
| Also consider this: we are social animals, but this does not
| automatically imply that everything we are doing we like to do
| in a social setting. E.g. most humans will prefer not to
| defecate in public. Many people instinctively pull back from
| society in times of shock, grief or pain etc.
| agumonkey wrote:
| True loners are rare I believe. There's also a lot of people
| that "participate" by not participating in social life. I've
| been truly alone a bunch of times and I realized that my
| introversion was not desire to not have people around, but
| mostly a weird kind of mode I was stuck into socially.
| slingnow wrote:
| Amazing, you can brush aside everything he said as "wrong"
| without providing any evidence or any sort of interesting
| argument whatsoever.
|
| Not to mention your counter claim makes no sense and is far too
| broad. Which humans can't function outside of a society? All of
| them? For how long? For 10 milliseconds? What do you mean by
| "function"? What does it mean to be "outside of a society"?
|
| The post makes perfect sense to anyone who is actually willing
| to understand it, rather than poorly attempt to nitpick at some
| aspect of it you hold near and dear to your heart.
| nescioquid wrote:
| Oh, I understood "every word" to pertain to the quoted text,
| not the whole article, but it's a little ambiguous, I grant
| you.
|
| But are you taking exception to the parent chuckling over the
| premise of humans as solitary animals? Humankind of society
| and culture and trade and language and art _solitary_
| animals?
| nonoesp wrote:
| I'll share here a quote from Cal Newport's Digital Minimalism,
| which I mentioned in another comment. Our brain's so-called
| default network, the one that fires "when thinking about
| nothing, [...] seems to be connected to social cognition."
|
| > Because the subject wasn't engaged in a specific task, it was
| easy for researchers to think of the default network as
| something that comes on when you're thinking about nothing. A
| little self-reflection, however, makes clear that our brains
| are hardly ever actually thinking about nothing. Even without a
| specific task, they tend to remain highly active, with thoughts
| and ideas flitting by in an ongoing noisy chatter. On further
| self-reflection, Lieberman realized that this background hum of
| activity tends to focus on a small number of targets: thoughts
| about "other people, yourself, or both." The default network,
| in other words, seems to be connected to social cognition.
| unity1001 wrote:
| Even cats (felis domesticus) socialize when needed and keep
| social groups to care for their young etc.
| a_e_k wrote:
| Yes, house cats are social animals, but solitary hunters.
| People often get the later confused with the former.
| munificent wrote:
| There is a core duality to being human (for all except for rare
| cognitive outliers):
|
| We are fundamentally a tribal species. Our entire evolutionary
| history--the thing that turned us into the species we are--
| revolves around our incredible ability to cooperate and share
| information. The basic unit of survival for our species is the
| tribe, not the individual. So at one very fundamental level, we
| must be around others to survive and thrive. We must subsume
| parts of ourselves that are unacceptable to the tribe so that
| we can be allowed to be one of its members. "Us" is more
| important than "I".
|
| But _at the exact same time_ , the tribe only wants and needs
| us if we can provide value, preferably _unique_ value to it. So
| while we need to fit in to survive, we must also stand out in
| ways that the tribe finds valuable, explore where other
| tribespeople won 't and bring back resources (physical,
| conceptual, etc.) that others can't.
|
| The tension between these two opposing forces--to conform or to
| stand out--is, I think, one of the key pieces of being human.
| chestervonwinch wrote:
| Perhaps what leads to small world networks?
|
| > A small-world network is a type of mathematical graph in
| which most nodes are not neighbors of one another, but the
| neighbors of any given node are likely to be neighbors of
| each other and most nodes can be reached from every other
| node by a small number of hops or steps.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small-world_network
| cecilpl2 wrote:
| > Humans are fundamentally solitary. That is our nature
|
| Everyone generalizes from a sample size of one.
| m463 wrote:
| "It is well to remember that the entire population of the
| universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of
| others."
| mupuff1234 wrote:
| I take it more as the inability to truly share the experience
| of being "you" with other people. To an extent we are always
| alone in our experience.
| Bubble_Pop_22 wrote:
| > Humans are fundamentally solitary. That is our nature
|
| This quote is getting lots of criticism but if you think about it
| , then you will realize it's true.
|
| Humans are capable of a wide spectrum of social emotions but
| 99.9999% of interactions are small talk and collaborations based
| on an already established pattern and procedure.
|
| We are extremely lonely because although we are surrounded by 8
| billion beings like us we only get to unlock the really cool
| stuff with about a dozen of them (after we spent thousands of
| hours in their company)
| didgetmaster wrote:
| I have always had an introverted nature. As a child, I would
| immerse myself for hours reading a book or other solitary
| activity. When my parents sent me to my room for punishment, they
| found it didn't work as I would not be begging to come out.
|
| But at different times of my life, I have been quite active
| socially. My college years especially were filled with social
| interactions that I grew to enjoy. It started out as friends and
| roommates dragging me to one thing or another, but after a while
| I instigated a lot of it.
|
| But I naturally gravitated to a career in programming where I can
| spend 10 hours straight at the keyboard with almost no
| interaction. My hobby project is a major one that deals with a
| whole new way to manage data. It has consumed several years of my
| life as I spend a great deal of my 'free time' thinking about it,
| writing code, or optimizing something.
|
| My introverted nature has affected my family life as I withdraw
| into my own little world. My wife sometimes wonders if I am
| depressed, unhappy, or stressed. Although I am perfectly content,
| I have to force myself to come out of my shell and interact much
| more with the wife and kids (and friends and neighbors). Many of
| my fellow programmers that I have worked with over the years also
| exhibit some of these tendencies.
|
| I guess it is debatable whether this adds to or subtracts from
| actual creativity.
| samstave wrote:
| Sometimes you are the plant that needs watering, other times;
| you should be watering the plants.
| 1970-01-01 wrote:
| It is said Shakespeare wrote in taverns because the lighting was
| free. The environment didn't matter to him, only the physical
| ability to read and write. I can't think of a better
| counterexample for a writer. Do whatever puts words on paper.
| There is an entire site dedicated to finding what works for you:
| https://famouswritingroutines.com/
| svnt wrote:
| What he's exploring here is integration in preparation for
| creativity.
|
| Humans kept in solitude can't speak, can't walk on two feet, and
| don't make abstract symbols.
|
| But temporarily it can allow you to escape the constant folding-
| back of social learning and move outside the bubble.
|
| Also, and importantly, this is an all-male interaction.
| dahart wrote:
| It's kind of easy to take this extremely literally and pick it
| apart, which a lot of comments here are doing, but might be
| helpful to broaden what "solitude" means and maybe even read it
| as though it's a bit allegorical. Also important to remember this
| was more than 100 years ago, and that he's talking very
| specifically about how to write _poetry_. All the way through I
| felt like he could have been talking about social media.
|
| Metaphorically, he seems to be saying (to me even more strongly
| than isolation): that motivation needs to be intrinsic, it should
| come from yourself and your own desires, not from others; and
| that you should practice your craft intensely and make sure the
| practice of writing poetry is free from interruptions or noise
| that cloud things. He may be naming the state of flow we all want
| using words for it that we're not used to these days, along with
| a push for writers to set their own standards and not judge
| themselves by publishing metrics. These are fairly timeless and
| applicable ideas today, not to mention all of us programmers
| frequently dream of solitude and perhaps resent the fact that we
| almost never get it at work.
| caprock wrote:
| Well said. Your point leads me (once again) to wonder. Is
| programming, or some specific aspect of it, fundamentally a
| creative practice?
| gabereiser wrote:
| Anything can be a creative practice once you learn that the
| rules that constrained it can be bent. Obviously there are
| areas where creativity will lead to massive explosions (which
| is how we know!) but programming, computers, art, hell even
| sitting in a toll booth can be creative endeavors. (Shout out
| to the fun folks working the booths at Universal Studios
| Orlando!)
| caprock wrote:
| That's an interesting perspective. It's been clear to me
| that creativity often arises from constraints, but I'd not
| really flipped the concept around like that before. Thank
| you for sharing!
| dahart wrote:
| I think so. Here are several possibly unrelated takes that
| are my own opinion: one is that a "creative practice" at it's
| most basic is simply creating something, and in that sense
| programming is absolutely creative. It need not be mysterious
| or artistic or particularly unique or personal, it can be
| seen as creative if it's nothing more than new. Another is
| that I practice digital art on my own, separate from my day
| job, and the process of making procedural art using a
| computer is similar in many ways to making art using
| traditional techniques, I absolutely view programming imagery
| as creative programming. A third view is that good
| programming is an art, not a science. We always have lots of
| options and it can be hard to choose; the people who are best
| at it are the ones who spend time designing and crafting and
| worrying about function and form. Deciding on the
| architecture is usually about balancing goals and
| understanding your audience. Tuning the performance of code
| is done best when finding out and thinking about how people
| perceive it while they use it. I do personally think of
| writing good code as an artistic process, conceptually
| similar to my own workflows for writing stories or painting
| pictures. The tools are different but the ideas are often the
| same.
| [deleted]
| michaelbrave wrote:
| I mean programming is more or less understanding a thing well
| enough to tell the machine how to go through the steps of it.
| I've always thought of it in a similar vein to the problem
| solving we use in design.
|
| So if we think of design or writing as creative, yes I think
| programming is too.
| Karrot_Kream wrote:
| My partner does a lot of art and frequently draws in social
| settings. She finds drawing by herself lonely, isolating, and
| draining. These sorts of takes incense her as she faces
| pressure to work alone. The problem with these sorts of theses
| is that they affirm the experiences of those who agree but do
| nothing with others. Programmers are more likely than most to
| prefer solitude, but even that isn't a constant. Extrapolating
| behavior across humanity from personal anecdotes has never been
| particularly effective.
| dahart wrote:
| Yeah I agree with this too, which is one reason I was subtly
| making a distinction above between goals and actions. Rilke's
| goals seem to be intrinsic motivation and intense focus, but
| "solitude" is the action he concludes one needs to do to
| achieve those goals (of writing poetry). Really, there are
| different kinds of people and different kinds of creative
| work, and different goals. Rilke had success, but there are
| plenty of poets, and many many more artists and creatives,
| who are wildly social. Creativity doesn't require solitude, I
| just wanted to extract the parts of this essay that were
| helpful for me.
|
| I liked reading this fictitious conversation by Rilke, but
| I'm not about to take it as bible truth and go live in the
| woods in hopes of being more creative. (And I don't think he
| was actually suggesting that either, it seems like he was
| talking about protecting his work time, like during the day,
| because it's an action that worked for him to achieve his
| goals.)
|
| > Programmers are more likely than most to prefer solitude,
| but even that isn't a constant.
|
| True! And we often want solitude even when it isn't the best
| thing. ;) I have watched myself and others go too far away
| from what is needed in some situations because the
| requirements weren't understood well enough, and assumptions
| were being made, and because it's super fun to dive into a
| clever algorithm or data structure, or a learn and implement
| a fancy technique. Programming in a business setting is a
| social process and sometimes means checking in with people
| early and often, iterating, and getting repeated feedback. I
| got in trouble in my very first industry job when I
| complained about having to report my progress daily because
| it took an hour to prepare and interrupted my flow, the note
| in my file about uncooperativeness stayed around for years.
| Later I came to believe I was in the wrong because of
| watching people drift away from the goals without enough
| talking...
| swayvil wrote:
| I have a friend who does this. Right in the middle of the
| crowd with her pad. It's a little bit, "hey look everybody
| I'm drawing!"
|
| I used to draw a lot in school. All classes. I was not on the
| same planet. The hum of the crowd gave me energy.
| greggman3 wrote:
| Creativity is enhanced by social drinking and turning off your
| pre-frontal cortex
|
| https://theinterval.org/salon-talks/02022/jun/14/drinking-10...
| swayvil wrote:
| Speaking as an arty type, it's not so much solitude that's
| required as _peace_.
|
| And yes, having people around is generally peace-destroying. But
| not absolutely.
| [deleted]
| Jhsto wrote:
| Anecdotally, solitude is unhelpful when it comes to figuring out
| the context or direction of work. It sounds counterproductive, to
| get creative by burrowing oneself with solitude work, to produce
| results that cannot be understood or appreciated by other people.
| bilater wrote:
| If the pandemic taught me anything it was sitting alone in a room
| did not inspire me to 'look inward', 'find myself' and 'create'.
| I suspect this is a very individual thing that works for some
| people but not for others and turning it into a naval-guru-like
| prescription isn't that helpful.
|
| DO your own thing...if sitting helps, sit. If moving helps, move.
| agumonkey wrote:
| Not all the time, musician jam sessions are another path.
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| _" Ask yourself at the darkest hour of the night: must I write?
| If your answer is yes, then you should redesign your life to
| align with this necessity."_
|
| This is really great practical advice. Decide what you must do.
| Remove the roadblocks and optimize to achieve your goal.
|
| _" You're looking outside of yourself for the answers, and
| that's the last place you'll find them. The only way for you to
| move forward is to move inward."_
|
| If I can only find answers internally, then why the hell would I
| listen to you now? What if my internal voice tells me the only
| answers come from outside?
|
| _" Do not strive to uncover all of the answers right now. The
| answers can't be given to you because you haven't been able to
| live with them. What matters is to live everything. So live the
| questions for now. Perhaps then you will gradually, without
| noticing it, live your way into the answers, one distant day in
| the future."_
|
| So, "Wherever you go, there you are".
| Bubble_Pop_22 wrote:
| > Decide what you must do. Remove the roadblocks and optimize
| to achieve your goal.
|
| The problem is that humans don't work like that. We aren't the
| passionate bunch the author think we are.
|
| People work for money and status , we are extremely result
| oriented not passion oriented.
|
| Even on here people enjoy technology , hacking etc. But if you
| gave us absolute certainty of economic and social success via
| some other drastically different path (e.g. a reality show such
| as Jersey Shore) , we would not hesitate one second and wear
| our tightest tank top and trunks , get tanned and play the
| part.
|
| I say "us" because I include myself in this scenario too, and I
| despise reality shows but you cant argue with millions of
| dollars and millions of followers.
|
| They are respectively the currency of financial and social
| success.
|
| it's far better to be a millionaire reality star whose claim to
| fame is clubbing and partying on camera than a professor with
| an IQ of 185 whose fusion startup went under
| auggierose wrote:
| speak for yourself, mate
| programmarchy wrote:
| This is a really interesting format. Researching a historical
| figure then producing a fictional interview with them is a very
| engaging way to communicate their ideas in a modern context.
| SCAQTony wrote:
| I am an artist, I sell at national fairs such Art Palm Springs,
| Art Market San Francisco, Scope Miami, L.A. Art Show and I have
| sold works in New York's Chelsea district. With the group of
| artists I know, and hang with, the introverts really put in the
| work and explore to the far reaches of an idea, and then they
| catalog it. Being an introvert does not give one a creative
| advantage, but in my experience, introverts have the patience to
| thoroughly explore without distraction or caring what others
| think. Extroverts in my experience, like myself, discover ideas
| via serendipity, collaboration, and asking for critiques.
| mayoi wrote:
| zuluonezero wrote:
| Thanks
| m463 wrote:
| I'm reminded of the book "iWoz" by you know, woz.
|
| In it he said:
|
| _" Most inventors and engineers I've met are like me -- they're
| shy and they live in their heads. They're almost like artists. In
| fact, the very best of them are artists. And artists work best
| alone -- best outside of corporate environments, best where they
| can control an invention's design without a lot of other people
| designing it for marketing or some other committee. I don't
| believe anything really revolutionary has ever been invented by
| committee... I'm going to give you some advice that might be hard
| to take. That advice is: Work alone... Not on a committee. Not on
| a team."_
| caente wrote:
| I haven't read the book, but that paragraph makes me think in
| all the artists that never did anything interesting, but were
| artists. It makes me think in all the artists that believed
| strongly that their work, and indeed their existence, was of
| the utmost importance, even if it wasn't.
|
| This is not a rant, you need to believe in yourself to do art,
| you need to believe that your work is of the most upmost
| importance, otherwise you wouldn't be able to give in to it.
|
| The problem is that, from the outside, that is not necessarily
| true, and often isn't.
|
| I actually agree with the premise, I do need solitude to be
| creative. I don't want to feel lonely, but I need to feel that
| my mind will not be perturbed at unexpected times, for
| unwelcome reasons. I just want to emphasize that calling
| ourselves artists is not making us any favors.
| Eupraxias wrote:
| Incorrect - though for some, it seems to be their only access to
| productive creativity.
|
| What about collaborative creativity? What about spontaneous
| creativity which is independent of environment? What about the
| kind of creativity that happens when a person goes into a very
| public place and sits alone and writes poetry... is that
| solitude?
|
| I know some writers who are exactly as described in the
| interview. They cannot work if they are not alone. It makes
| sense. I know others who are almost the opposite - who need the
| presence of humanity to be creatively productive.
|
| Methinks the calculus here is more complex than Rilke states.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-08-25 23:00 UTC)