[HN Gopher] Ghana bans a Delta Boeing 767 (yes, just one)
___________________________________________________________________
Ghana bans a Delta Boeing 767 (yes, just one)
Author : mcenedella
Score : 138 points
Date : 2022-08-26 18:42 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (onemileatatime.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (onemileatatime.com)
| ramesh31 wrote:
| Seems like a perfect storm of max length ETOPS flight combined
| with a seriously aged airframe, resulting in a vastly increased
| margin of safety needed to complete the flight. If you plot JFK
| -> ACC on Google Earth, you can see the flightpath perfectly
| threads the needle between Bermuda and the Azores, creating what
| is probably the longest overwater route with no diversions
| possible from the east coast.
|
| The 767's are really only profitable on these "long fat" routes
| anymore, and I suspect this will probably be the start of Delta
| retiring them for 787s or A350s.
| djohnston wrote:
| I love it! Pretty funny story as no one was hurt and there was no
| material damage. This is also a great example of why your code
| will inevitably end up with a bunch of if-else blocks if it is
| popular and used for a long enough time XD. I would like to see
| how this is coded into Delta's flight logistics software.
| tpmx wrote:
| > I would like to see how this is coded into Delta's flight
| logistics software.
|
| By cancelling the service to Accra, probably.
| BoorishBears wrote:
| I don't know what level of misunderstanding it takes to think
| this.
|
| Misunderstanding the airline industry, or the country, or how
| airports operate, or what really.
| jrockway wrote:
| I think there's a certain contingent that reacts to any
| regulation with "fine, then I'll take my ball and go home".
| Country has safety requirements, they deny any service to
| that country as retribution.
|
| The real world has more shades of grey. Delta can probably
| put a note in their scheduling system to make sure the
| airliner in question doesn't go to that country. They also
| know how much money they lose if they take their ball and
| go home, and probably wouldn't even be flying the route if
| it was completely unprofitable. (There are probably
| partners that rely on the service, and maintaining a good
| relationship with business partners is important too in a
| less financially-obvious way.)
| diputsmonro wrote:
| Would you like to contribute your knowledge to the
| conversation then?
|
| It seems like it would be a knee-jerk overreaction to be,
| but Delta obviously has a lot of management issues and a
| shortsighted knee-jerk decision from them (or most giant
| corporations) would not surprise me.
| Mountain_Skies wrote:
| Delta had at one point been developing Accra into a hub
| for their other destinations in western Africa but not
| sure they're still going in that direction with the way
| the transportation world has changed in the past few
| years. Either way, they probably do have a good bit of
| investment in facilities there.
| rsynnott wrote:
| ... Wait, why would they do that? They presumably make money
| on the route, or they wouldn't run it (it's not like it's one
| of those routes you have to have even if it's loss-making),
| and they have lots of 767s; they can just shift the Forbidden
| 767 elsewhere. Are you suggesting they'd scrap it out of
| _spite_? Not how enormous companies work in general.
| [deleted]
| kzrdude wrote:
| another if-else block? I'm thinking another database table of
| banned plane-route combinations, if they don't already have it.
| Mountain_Skies wrote:
| Seems reasonable that they have some sort of rules engine
| that tracks this type of thing. A country banning a
| particular aircraft might be rare but differing environmental
| and noise laws around the world probably means there are
| quite a few restrictions on which aircraft can go to which
| destinations beyond the major reasons like runway size and
| gate facilities.
| diputsmonro wrote:
| Ideally, sure, but the article makes it seems like a rare
| ocurrence. And if their plane maintenance is any indication,
| I'm not sure their application architecture would be
| following such best practices.
| rsynnott wrote:
| This specific thing is a rare occurrence, but "only certain
| special variant planes can land at this weird airport" (for
| instance, LCY requires a specific 318 variant) is more
| common.
| inferiorhuman wrote:
| And if their plane maintenance is any indication
|
| Delta runs one of the premier maintenance outfits (Delta
| TechOps) globally. About a quarter of their TechOps
| business is for outside airlines. So sure if that's any
| indication their application architecture is probably
| pretty decent (it's not).
|
| This was an ETOPS flight, yeah? Those come with higher
| standards for crew training, maintenance, and minimum
| equipment per the FAA. I wouldn't worry until/unless the
| FAA starts making noise about revoking Delta's ETOPS
| certification (which would hurt their ability to fly a
| bunch of routes and their ability to perform maintenance
| for e.g. Hawaiian).
| Ekaros wrote:
| Also if the plane gets retired, does that clause stay there?
| TremendousJudge wrote:
| If it's anything like other codebases I've seen, yes.
| themadturk wrote:
| Presumably the same registration number wouldn't be
| necessarily re-used for a 767, and the ban is on the 767 with
| that registration, not on a hypothetical 777 with the same
| registration.
| cjrp wrote:
| Would have been better to ban the plane's manufacturer serial
| number.
| addaon wrote:
| Yes. Registration numbers can be reused. Even if Delta
| retires the plane, they are forbidden from flying a future
| plane with that registration to Accra (barring a presumedly
| easy appeal), so the code must stay.
| bowmessage wrote:
| > no one was hurt
|
| Check out https://youtu.be/7PQTMx7TZ9A, quite a few folks went
| through some emotional trauma over this one, unfortunately.
| serf wrote:
| I get that it was traumatic, but I don't think we should
| begin comparing the trauma and distress of a bad plane ride
| for someone with a fear of flying to the trauma and distress
| of a plane crash.
|
| by 'hurt' the earlier parent was pretty obviously (at least
| for me) referring to the chance at an outright failure and
| crash resulting in injury or loss of life.
|
| not that a bad experience and the resulting psychological
| trauma doesn't constitute 'hurt'; but it's a kind of hurt
| that one stands a chance to recover from .
| assttoasstmgr wrote:
| Happy4000 wrote:
| Between 2010 and 2013, I used to fly to Ghana most summers. Delta
| would use old aircraft on this route. Inflight entertainment was
| the screen hanging in the middle of the aisle. Watching a movie
| on the flight was a challenge. You had to bring your own
| entertainment to pass the time.
|
| Eventually I stopped using that route and took KLM instead. KLM
| to Schiphol and to Accra. KLM was in a world of it's own. Similar
| planes irrespective of whether I was in the US or flying to
| Ghana. Personal inflight entertainment. The service was way
| better.
| inferiorhuman wrote:
| Delta would use old aircraft on this route
|
| Delta uses old aircraft on most of their routes. That's been
| their MO for a while. Delta was the launch customer for the
| DC-9 in 1965 and retired the type in _2014_. COVID accelerated
| the retirement of the derivatives (MD-80 /90), but they're
| still flying the 717 (a.k.a. MD-95).
|
| The last time I flew SFO-JFK I was on a Delta 767- _400_ and
| yeah Delta hasn 't updated the interiors on those. Compared to
| other airlines that typically run a premium (single aisle)
| product on that route the extra aisle and the 2-3-2 seating are
| pretty competitive unless you're jonesing for crappy seat back
| entertainment.
| wenc wrote:
| I don't know about most of their routes but likely most of
| their long hauls.
|
| Only 20% of their fleet today are 757s and 767s (and they are
| the largest operator for both), but they are also the largest
| operator for the Bombardier/Airbus A220 -- my favorite short
| haul plane, which is an engineering marvel and a new design.
|
| A lot of the MDs were from the Northwest Airlines days which
| they merged with. I used to fly NWA and the cabins were never
| inspiring but the points never expired and were among the
| best in the industry.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_fleet
| quink wrote:
| They have 127 Boeing 757s, a plane that stopped being made
| two decades ago with still no clear successor.
| xattt wrote:
| As does Icelandair.
| woodruffw wrote:
| I wonder if this is a general phenomenon with Delta's
| codeshare partners: I flew on a KLM 747-400 that looked like
| it came right out of the 1990s a couple of years ago. I think
| they've retired it since, but it was very surprising to step
| onto.
| Symbiote wrote:
| KLM have fairly new aircraft, on average.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| I kind of agree with Ghana here. Gotta maintain your planes. It's
| sad that a foreign country has to be the one making Delta do
| routine pmc.
| bombcar wrote:
| More importantly, this is an easy way for Ghana to say "get
| another damn plane on this route".
| spaceflunky wrote:
| Strongly agree with Ghana. Seems like a reasonable way to stick
| up for yourself.
| iepathos wrote:
| They aren't making them take care of the plane though. Delta is
| just routing the plane to go to European countries now instead.
| Delta dgaf
| yardie wrote:
| This plane is now flying LAX, JFK, Edinburgh, and Lisboa.
|
| https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N195DN/history
| tpmx wrote:
| As it did before. During the past three months only 10 (or
| about 6%) of its 170 flights have involved Ghana, either as
| source or destination. It's mostly been flying in US/EU.
|
| Source: that URL, with an old free membership.
|
| Here's a news article from Ghana regarding the whole thing,
| including photos of the official letter to Delta from their
| aviation authority, etc:
|
| https://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/NewsArchive/Delta-
| Air...
| ericbarrett wrote:
| Makes sense for Ghana, there's likely far fewer direct
| flights to NYC than from, say, Paris, and transfers would add
| many hours as they're probably through Europe. Disruptions on
| this flight would have an outsized impact on diplomats and
| business execs.
| sjm-lbm wrote:
| They are making them take care of the plane, at least to the
| limits of their authority. It's not like they have much say
| about what a US-based airline does outside of their borders.
| BeMoreSpecific wrote:
| amelius wrote:
| If you want to be more sure you're on a safe flight, fly over
| Ghana.
| 0110101001 wrote:
| A YouTube discussion between passengers on each of the flights
| turned around and a professional pilot:
|
| https://youtu.be/7PQTMx7TZ9A
| deelowe wrote:
| Great to see this follow up. I saw the original critique from
| 74 gear and didn't realize they did this.
| xvector wrote:
| It's a shame the executives running Delta aren't hit with
| crippling fines. The ability of individuals to hide behind the
| mask of a corporation is perhaps the worst thing about modern
| capitalism.
| dijonman2 wrote:
| Why hit Delta with crippling fines? Has there been loss of
| life? Or anything close to it?
|
| Sounds like the pilots returned to NYC out of caution. Modern
| aviation safety at work.
| toss1 wrote:
| >>Has there been loss of life?
|
| Not YET
|
| >>Or anything close to it?
|
| Depends on what the problems were.
|
| Smart organizations don't track accidents and deaths (e.g.,
| factories with the big "N Days Since a Time Lost Accident"
| sign out front), they track anythign resembling a close call,
| and I've even seen signs tracking that.
|
| this is no different than tracking storage or memory failures
| so that you can pull the unit BEFORE it fails, because an
| increase in rate of minor incidents PREDICTS the failure.
|
| In the case of civil aviation, when it gets to the point of
| loss of life or anything close to it, you are likely talking
| hundreds of lives. Smart people who are not sociopaths care
| about preventing that sort of failure. Evidently the execs at
| Delta do not, just as the execs at Boeing did not, and had to
| kill hundreds of people in two crashes to pull the 737-max
| off the flightlines.
|
| Yes, this was a smart move by Ghana, and yes we do need
| personal liability for setting up a system that devalues
| people's lives in pursuit of profit (and no, that does not
| mean that every remote possibility of harm could send someone
| to jail, but systemic negligence of safety should have real
| consequences not just corporate fines. At the very least, if
| corporations are supposed to be like people, we need the
| corporate death penalty - significant crimes and the corp
| goes to the chopping block, assets individually auctioned
| off).
| notahacker wrote:
| Do you _honestly_ think Delta isn 't tracking its aircraft
| performance? Perhaps in _even_ more detail than a factory
| with a big sign!
|
| The reason the aircraft returned to base (at great expense
| to Delta) on multiple occasions is _because_ they are
| extremely cautious.
| inferiorhuman wrote:
| Not YET
|
| Do you even know what the problems were or how the dispatch
| reliability of N195DN compares to Delta's other 767-300s?
| There are any number of non-safety-related reasons a plane
| might return to the gate, especially on a long haul flight
| e.g. problems with the toilets.
|
| Take a deep breath. Nothing with N195DN was a close call.
| cjrp wrote:
| > "With immediate effect, Delta Air Lines is being advised not to
| dispatch the B767-332 with registration number N195DN for flights
| to Accra."
|
| That doesn't sound like it's banned to me; more like they're just
| pressuring Delta to use a different aircraft.
| michaelsshaw wrote:
| No, re-read it. "Advised" as in being told. Ghana has told
| Delta explicitly to not dispatch N195DN to Accra.
| tomatotomato37 wrote:
| It should be note that even if all these malfunctions were minor
| and non-hazardous having a plane divert multiple multiple times
| would still cause an administrative nightmare
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-08-26 23:00 UTC)