[HN Gopher] My Contribution to Markdown ___________________________________________________________________ My Contribution to Markdown Author : zdw Score : 82 points Date : 2022-09-02 16:37 UTC (6 hours ago) (HTM) web link (leancrew.com) (TXT) w3m dump (leancrew.com) | NelsonMinar wrote: | That little asterix on "without any changes" is doing a lot of | work. | | > The code block has to be indented, of course, or--in many | implementations, but not Gruber's--surrounded by fences. | | Indenting is always a nuisance and can present more complicated | problems for Python or other whitespace-significant languages. | | CommonMark and most Markdown flavors support 3 backticks or 3 | tildes as a fence. Then everything inside is literally unaltered | code. Not sure what you do if your code sample itself has the | fence in it. | isitmadeofglass wrote: | A contribution typically implies actual work, not just having | talked to the person who made the actual contribution. | redditor98654 wrote: | A product manager that comes up with feature ideas is doing | actual work, would you not agree? Even if they themselves do | not implement anything. | just-ok wrote: | What? No. Writing a well-spec'd feature request with clear | outcome and behavior expectations is work. Just asking, | "Wouldn't it be cool if ____?" is not actual work. | redditor98654 wrote: | If the feature is simple enough, it is possible to | illustrate it in a few sentences. I am just speculating at | this point, but if the discussion went like "hey, I think | in Markdown, if the users enters a code-block, we should | treat everything literally and not escape anything. This | way users can just copy-paste code and expect it to render | exactly like the raw text". | | This is clearly spec'd and has clear expectations on how it | should behave. No implementation details of course which | you wouldn't expect from a product manager in most cases as | well. | julianlam wrote: | Not according to GitHub, which -- unless I'm mistaken -- treats | opened issues as contributions. | soperj wrote: | Noticing a bug and filing a report on it is actual work. | brycewray wrote: | > Anyway, it was during a digression--actually a digression | within a digression-- that Gruber talks about code blocks in | Markdown and how one of his favorite features is that you don't | have to escape anything in a code block. You can paste source | code directly into your Markdown document without any changes, | and it will appear as expected in the rendered HTML. | | True enough as far as it goes but, if you use that Markdown in | some static site generators (SSGs), you may still have to massage | it a bit so the SSG output won't be borked. For a couple of | examples: | | - In Eleventy and Jekyll (and maybe others), you often have to | wrap code blocks in `{% raw %}` and `{% endraw %}`. | | - In Hugo, if you're including anything that Go initially | "thinks" is real code rather than just a reproduction thereof, | you must put comment characters around it: `{{< this >}}` isn't | OK, but `{{</* this */>}}` is (and will display in Hugo as the | desired `{{< this >}}`). | groby_b wrote: | If the SSGs are broken, that's hardly markdown's fault. | brycewray wrote: | Just sayin'. :-) | n4jm4 wrote: | I supported an effort to standardize Markdown into an actual | common syntax, instead of the nasty variation we see between | GitHub, Reddit, Stack Overflow, Atlassian, etc. etc. This became | CommonMark, which everyone ignores. | polygamous_bat wrote: | I am sorry. However, XKCD did warn us about this: | https://xkcd.com/927/ | [deleted] | avgcorrection wrote: | > 14 competing standards | | MarkDown didn't have any standards to begin with, just | different implementations for different platforms. Tired 927 | refuted. | bosswipe wrote: | If Gruber had gotten behind that initiative it probably | would've worked but he was weirdly antagonistic to it. | remram wrote: | I do wish we could have _both modes_ in Markdown, similar to how | bash has <<END and <<'END' | | Sometimes I want to highlight a part of the code... | behnamoh wrote: | > But I was there first, you're welcome. | | With these things, I always think "but if he hadn't done it, | someone else would". Therefore, what matters is the thing that | got done; the person doing it isn't special (nor should they feel | so). | abnry wrote: | You forgot these sentences right before it: | | > Undoubtedly, as Markdown became more popular, someone else | would have pointed out this problem. Gruber himself would have | been annoyed by it if he ever needed to write a code block with | backslashes in it. | | People are overreacting to a tongue-in-cheek post. I doubt the | author takes himself too seriously with all of this. | nescioquid wrote: | What was the purpose of the post? The author wrote a tedious | story about listening to a podcast episode in which markdown | codeblocks are mentioned and "That's my doing". | | But the rest comes off like mock humility because there | really wasn't any information of relevance to anyone but the | author. | | Had the article been about the importance of user engagement | in open source projects and then used his personal experience | to underscore the point, then the article is really about | raising awareness and might be something of utility to a | reader. This article, however, just reads like me, me, me. | Veen wrote: | It wasn't a personal letter addressed to you so naturally | it fails to account for your ignorance. He's writing for | long-time readers of his blog who already understand the | context, his style, his relationship with Gruber and | Markdown, and so on. Perhaps, given that you haven't got a | clue about any of that and don't seem to know what irony | is, you should reconsider whether your rude comment is | justified. | nescioquid wrote: | Well I did find the irony of your reply delicious; sure, | I'll just leave it to you to decide what is justified and | what is rude. | abnry wrote: | Yeah, it is self centered, but it is fun. | swyx wrote: | im too late to contribute anything to core markdown, but my claim | to fame is making a list of "mistakes in markdown" that Gruber | endorsed recently: | | - list: https://twitter.com/swyx/status/1240719259505963010 | (previously on HN https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22776108 ) | | - gruber: https://twitter.com/gruber/status/1240888155307495426 | thangalin wrote: | Another item missing from Markdown is a standard syntax for | cross-references and citations: | | https://talk.commonmark.org/t/cross-references-and-citations... | | Is the tweeted list a little outdated now? | | > no id's in headers | | A natural ID is derived by changing the header to lowercase and | replacing spaces with hyphens, such as: | | https://github.com/DaveJarvis/keenwrite/blob/master/docs/scr... | | > no syntax for adding classes | | Pandoc introduced ::: annotation blocks that produce div tags | with classes. I discuss this length: | | https://dave.autonoma.ca/blog/2020/04/28/typesetting-markdow... | | My editor, KeenWrite[0], also supports annotation syntax: | | https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/2131950/161400266-... | | > any number will do in ordered lists | | Isn't that either a presentation issue or a feature? I prefer | numbering lists with a sequence of 1., 1., 1., 1., to let the | computer automatically increment the number. Makes | adding/removing items easier. Being able to arbitrarily change | the numbering seems weird, though potentially useful. | | > code blocks (4 spaces) over code fences (```) | | Not sure why this is a design mistake. When reading technical | documentation, indented stands out more. IMO, it improves | readability for short snippets (where syntax highlighting | doesn't matter). | | > can't nest Markdown in HTML in Markdown | | Depends on the Markdown flavour, doesn't it? | | [0]: https://github.com/DaveJarvis/keenwrite#download | swyx wrote: | yes, i was commenting on the base markdown spec by Gruber | (since that is the subset that all the supersets have to fit) | trauco wrote: | All the humming and hawing about how the author of the post is | taking credit for someone else's work, etc, is a good example of | the problem of reading one-off things on the internet and | commenting on them here without understanding the context or the | voice of the author. | | As a long-term reader of that blog, it is obvious to me this is a | little historical anecdote, mostly tongue-in-cheek, from a | particular mac-centric community to which both the author and | Gruber belong to. He's not being grandiose or trying to take | credit. | | Sometimes a story is just a story. | [deleted] | AceJohnny2 wrote: | Someone recently put it very insightfully, that it was | impossible to post things candidly on the Internet because your | in-group shared background/assumptions aren't shared by randos | on the internet that will come across your post and | misinterpret it. | | (I'm pretty sure this was linked on HN, but it's too vague for | me to search/find it) | capableweb wrote: | Sounds just like what the author could expect from a discussion | in a community which is not the same community they usually | find themselves in ("a particular mac-centric community", | whichever that refers to). | | Strangers on the internet will come across your little random | story if it's public, and rather than blaming first-time | readers for not understanding the context nor the voice of the | author, maybe the author could adjust the article to provide | the context or make the voice stronger/more obvious? | | Honestly, I'm fine with not understanding everything from | communities I don't generally hang-around, it's bound to happen | at one point or another. | trauco wrote: | > Strangers on the internet will come across your little | random story if it's public, and rather than blaming first- | time readers for not understanding the context nor the voice | of the author, maybe the author could adjust the article to | provide the context or make the voice stronger/more obvious? | | I'm not "blaming" anyone. I'm just pointing out that the | commenters here are missing the point of the story because | they don't understand the context, and that this is a fairly | common phenomenon. | | I think it's fine to tailor your writing to a community of | like-minded readers rather than a first-time reader from here | that is unlikely to come back. | | > Honestly, I'm fine with not understanding everything from | communities I don't generally hang-around, it's bound to | happen at one point or another. | | Me too, of course. It just makes a discussion without that | context, i.e., what's happening here, detached from what the | author meant with the post. | lapcat wrote: | > Sounds just like what the author could expect from a | discussion in a community which is not the same community | they usually find themselves in ("a particular mac-centric | community", whichever that refers to). | | The author of the blog post did not submit the article to | Hacker News. | | Anyway, I wish that HN commenters would apply the same HN | guidelines to article authors that they do to each other. | It's all too easy to rip on someone who isn't here to explain | or defend themselves. | https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html | throwthere wrote: | I think you're meant to read this post as if the entire thing is | surrounded by "sarcasm" tags. | ninepoints wrote: | This is akin to filing a bug report, and then taking | responsibility for the fix committed by someone else. | dewey wrote: | > Undoubtedly, as Markdown became more popular, someone else | would have pointed out this problem. Gruber himself would have | been annoyed by it if he ever needed to write a code block with | backslashes in it. But I was there first. And you're welcome. | | I don't see how he's taking responsibility for fixing the bug. | To me it just sounds like he's sharing an anecdote and this is | not entirely serious. | tshaddox wrote: | I personally read it as a tongue-in-cheek boast where the | author's intent was to clearly indicate that their contribution | was minimal and they just happened to be the first person to | point something out to the developers of the library. | hisnameisjimmy wrote: | Agree completely. This is just a fun little anecdote. | jancsika wrote: | Don't know about responsibility, but there are cases where I'd | certainly take the credit. For example: | | 1. Finding the bug was difficult, while fixing the bug was | trivial | | 2. My own proposed patches seem to sit for years, while | emailing bug reports directly to the committer results in them | committing fixes within days. | actuallyalys wrote: | I help maintain some open source projects, and I totally | disagree. Filing bugs (or thoughtful feature requests) is | absolutely a contribution, and I wish more users would do so. | | Edit: In fairness, I think some of the ways the author | describes it are grandiose ("my extremely important | contribution"), but I interpreted them as hyperbole. | capableweb wrote: | I think this is the part that itches me: | | > . You can paste source code directly into your Markdown | document without any changes, and it will appear as expected | in the rendered HTML. That's my doing. | | It makes it sound like the author of this blogpost actually | did the change, while in reality they suggested the change. | Of course it's good to suggest something, and even nicer when | whoever you suggest it to implements it. But I'd never claim | "that's my doing" after suggesting any features/fixes. | | A bit like writing an email to Apple suggesting something, | then they do that thing and I wrote a blogpost saying "That's | my doing, I was there first. And you're welcome.". It just | doesn't taste well. | actuallyalys wrote: | I interpreted that as not being serious, but I can see why | that part rubbed people the wrong way. | btown wrote: | If a candidate were to say "that's my doing" when | describing the outcome of a prior _team_ project, and | language barriers weren't a mitigating factor, I would | consider that a significant red flag for ego. Not a crime, | and a reasonable exaggeration in many circumstances. But I | wouldn't want someone communicating that way in a | professional capacity on an engineering team. | indymike wrote: | > If a candidate were to say "that's my doing" when | describing the outcome of a prior team project, | | "I made that" is the ultimate statement of pride in work. | Taking that away is a really awful anti-pattern in | management. Let your people be proud of their | contribution, and equally proud of the product of the | team. The work of a team is the sum of the contribution | of all members. | | > a reasonable exaggeration in many circumstances | | I find people who take credit for the work of the team to | be a lot worse than people who take pride in their | contribution to the team. | filmgirlcw wrote: | Well it's a good thing drdrang was just posting a missive | on his blog and not in a job interview with you. But I | guess if he does ever interview with you, you'll remember | his tongue-in-cheek missive and be dismissive, even if if | never comes up in conversation. | | That'll show 'em! Never write tongue-in-cheek blogs or | else random weirdos who will never meet you will write | you off as a candidate for an engineering team that | doesn't exist and that you don't want to join in the | first place. | koheripbal wrote: | A well described and thought out bug report can make fixes | trivial and are worth their weight in gold. | | Obviously the "it doesn't work" bug reports are worthless. | svnpenn wrote: | The whole post is pretty obnoxious. Its literally "you made | this? I made this": | | https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/079/173/ed2... | sophacles wrote: | Some credit as the motivator of the fix is deserved. The author | very clearly states: Undoubtedly, as Markdown | became more popular, someone else would have pointed out this | problem. Gruber himself would have been annoyed by it if he | ever needed to write a code block with backslashes in it. But I | was there first. And you're welcome. | | I don't think they are trying to take more credit than is due. | dathanb82 wrote: | But also > You can paste source code directly into your | Markdown document without any changes, and it will appear as | expected in the rendered HTML. That's my doing. | | In that sentence, it kinda does sound like they're trying to | take credit for it. | kergonath wrote: | Or maybe the reader can do better than isolate a sentence | out of context and assume bad intent. It's obvious this is | not to be taken seriously. It's a few paragraphs on a blog, | FFS. | water-your-self wrote: | Its upon the reader to ascribe malintent. Ill choose not | to. | sophacles wrote: | Generally I don't like to point out typos, but in the | context of malintent: Ill vs I'll is pretty amusing :D | [deleted] | sophacles wrote: | It is their doing - they started the series of events. It's | other people's doings ALSO. This sentence doesn't imply | exclusivity, it just doesn't say others did stuff. | Fortunately the entire rest of the document, particularly | the part I highlighted above, makes it very clear: | | 1. what their doing is in more specific detail | | 2. what others' doings are in more specific detail | | I'm going to assume that the author included all that | additional detail in the document on purpose, and with the | intent of clarifying what "That's my doing" entails. It | seems pretty unlikely that your hypothesis of "the person | is claiming the whole thing is their doing and accidentally | wrote a whole bunch of words undermining that simple | sentence" is the right one. | IncRnd wrote: | There is an entire article. There doesn't need to be just | one sentence plucked out of context. | | "I pointed this out in the Markdown mailing list, and | Gruber agreed that it should be changed. In the next | Markdown release--which was, I believe, his last--he made | the change, and all the text in code blocks has been | treated literally ever since." | | What's wrong with that? He said what he did, said who fixed | the issue, and stated the result. | Veen wrote: | It's not that. It's tongue in cheek, as anyone who has followed | Gruber and Dr. Drang for a while will understand. | redditor98654 wrote: | It is still a contribution, which is what the title is. It did | not say "my feature implementation in Markdown". A good feature | suggestion which is thoughtful and genuinely improves a product | not just for that one user but for everyone is a great | contribution. | remram wrote: | The exact phrasing: | | > That's my doing. | | Come on now. | [deleted] | kergonath wrote: | There is even worse than that. He also wrote: | | > I | | Which clearly means that he takes full credit for the whole | Markdown implementation. What a scandal! | actuallyalys wrote: | I interpreted it as a joke, but I'm familiar with the | author and hyperbole doesn't always translate, so I can see | why it rubbed people the wrong way. | klez wrote: | Right. That's why I can claim that my biggest contribution to | Firefox is suggesting indicating the estimated reading time | at the top of an article in reader mode. I'm the one who made | the feature request [0]. | | It took some time, but they finally implemented it and I felt | (and still feel) very good about it :) | | [0] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1265304 | capableweb wrote: | I think the claim "that's my biggest contribution to X" is | fine, if you feel like that was what you think is the | biggest contribution you made to X. | | Where it starts to feel wrong, would be if you somehow | started claiming "I suggested it first. It's because of me | it's there. You're welcome", when you merely suggested the | feature, not implemented or drove it to be implemented. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-09-02 23:00 UTC)