[HN Gopher] From Prison to Programming
___________________________________________________________________
From Prison to Programming
Author : adamgordonbell
Score : 120 points
Date : 2022-09-03 12:03 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (corecursive.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (corecursive.com)
| benkarst wrote:
| Or if you make TC, from 'from programming to prison'.
| accnumnplus1 wrote:
| Religious belief. The way to heaven. Does any other profession
| have such a high opinion of itself?
| kazinator wrote:
| Oh yeah, _that 's_ gonna bring status to our profession!
|
| Can you imagine "Prison to District Attorney". Or "Prison to
| Chief of Staff of Hospital".
| z3c0 wrote:
| No, because - as a programmer - I have the humility to admit
| that this job requires neither the stress management, the moral
| complexity, the social responsibility, nor the interpersonal
| skills that the jobs you've listed require.
|
| I think our profession needs less gatekeeping, not more.
| PeterStuer wrote:
| Prison to lawyer happens though.
| Beltalowda wrote:
| > Oh yeah, that's gonna bring status to our profession!
|
| Who cares?
|
| So what is your plan for former convicts? Have them in prison
| their entire lives? Only give them the shittiest of jobs for
| the rest of their lives? Send them to Australia? Outer space?
|
| All other things being equal, I'd rather have a former convict
| motivated to make the best of things than some privileged
| middle-class millennial who thinks the world owes them
| everything.
| adamgordonbell wrote:
| This is the story of how Rick Wolter learned to program in prison
| and ultimately became a professional iOS developer.
|
| I figure any story that involves smuggling a python interpreter
| into prison on a USB stick seems like it might interest people
| here.
|
| But I think its also an important story because it's about how
| software development can be life changing and lift people up out
| of hard situations.
| daniel-cussen wrote:
| So I was talking to a cop, because I do in fact talk to cops
| all the time, talked about prison, like convicts pretending to
| be sick for a bit, I told him that's like their vacation. Then
| escape came up, Marshal Service came up. I told him, dude
| rather stay right in my cell than being hunted by the Marshal
| Service.
|
| Dude like Wyatt Earp? The only escape from Wyatt Earp, the only
| safe harbor, the real place you can go, is stay right where you
| are, in your cell.
|
| So this is a sick hack, that's exactly what this forum is
| about.
|
| Hacker News.
| adamgordonbell wrote:
| Oh, also Rick has some of the most practical advice on learning
| programming, and transition to a professional dev that I've
| seen. I know it's not popular to just talk
| about grinding, the overwork culture is not popular. I get
| that, this is a different space. You want this shit? You got to
| grind. You're going to have to do it on the weekends, you're
| going to have to lock in. I'm sure someone's going to be like,
| "Oh, no you don't. I don't have to. don't put that pressure on
| them," that's fine. But to me, when you come from a background,
| especially if you're a felon, but even if you're not a felon,
| you don't have a college that's going to give you any kind of
| signal. Everyone talks about the college debt but
| your local community college isn't that expensive. And then,
| that way, maybe you could just cut your work down to 10, 20
| hours and then spend the rest of time coding. You
| focus on fundamentals first. Data structures, control flow,
| that kind of thing and stick to that for a short period of
| time. Maybe a month, month and a half, just do that basic
| stuff. It's not popular, people want to see things on their
| screen, they want to say they built a thing but you've got to
| get those fundamentals first and there's so many free options,
| Coursera, freeCodeCamp. And then, once you get some
| fundamentals, then you can decide on the platform.
| And once you pick your platform, just focus and stick to it. If
| you're building Ruby on Rails, do that every day but make sure
| you're building it. Hands on the keyboard, watch a tutorial
| then do the tutorial again but change some things then try to
| recreate what you built in the tutorial while not looking, that
| kind of thing. Because that's the main thing is getting your
| skills up.
| kodah wrote:
| This is solid advice for anyone coming here without a degree.
| I say that because it mostly summarizes what I feel made me
| successful.
| chrisbrandow wrote:
| I have tried to summarize my advice as a mid career person
| who switched to programming. iOS. Rick has done so more
| perfectly than I have ever been able to. I highly endorse his
| comments here.
| r00tanon wrote:
| I can only go by my experience in that a passion for making
| computers do things was the seed. From there it drove a desire to
| learn more. I don't think most people can sustain the desire
| without that. It really should be about feeding the innate
| talents. Could I make a living playing music? No. It's not a one
| size fits all thing.
| badrabbit wrote:
| Question: Without a CS degree background can you still work as a
| programmer with just knowing the languages? Do companies require
| something else like a bootcamp leetcode?
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I have a G.E.D. A bit of redneck tech school. The rest is OJT,
| seminars, nights and weekends, and side work. Lots of volunteer
| work.
|
| Worked for me.
|
| I can also relate to the topic. I work daily with _many_ folks
| that have had to rebuild their lives; as both victim and
| victimizer.
|
| Tough room. Many of the folks you try to help aren't gonna make
| it. Some will try to take you down with them (not always the
| criminals, either. Some of the victims get fairly primal, as
| well). Learning to balance and hold your boundaries is key.
| Don't get punked, but also, don't let the punks stop you.
|
| Long story. Get your hanky. Things have turned out OK, in the
| long run.
|
| I salute and support Mr. Wolter, and wish him all the luck in
| the world.
| [deleted]
| ROTMetro wrote:
| https://www.unicor.gov/DataConversionVideo.aspx
|
| Guys, we're good. Just look at the opportunity the government
| provides prison slaves, I mean inmates. Don't forget in the Feds
| you are required to work, or you will be shipped to a higher
| classification facility and receive Diesel Therapy(see
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_therapy ).
|
| Unicor, the Federal Government's slave labor auction site.
|
| USA 13the Amendment to the Constitution: "Neither slavery nor
| involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof
| the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the
| United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
| einpoklum wrote:
| For me it was the other way around: I went to prison to stop
| programming. Well, sort of.
|
| When I was drafted (involuntarily) into the Israeli Military, I
| worked as a programmer. It's much cheaper, you see, to have a
| programmer who doesn't get paid - assuming you can filter our
| those teens who are good enough to be able to do the job.
|
| Now, I was only 18 years old. During my military service, my
| political consciousness developed, and I started thinking about
| what the Israeli military was doing with the product of my work,
| and for what purposes. I also became quite critical of the
| various foreign clients of the technology we were working on. It
| got to the point where I not only thought what my unit was doing
| was illegitimate, but in fact, I lost my support for the regime.
|
| So, I quit. The thing is, quitting mandatory military service is
| a bit more difficult than quitting a civilian job... and in order
| to quit, I had to go to prison. Or rather, officially, you can't
| quit, you can only be discharged; and for that to happen you have
| to resist enough for them to believe they won't get any work out
| of you, and then they typically discharge you for "inappropriate
| conduct", or for being determined to have an (inspecific)
| psychological problem.
| golemiprague wrote:
| remote_phone wrote:
| I think the biggest problem prisons have is that you collect
| large groups of criminals and let them hang out together. It
| breeds an even more concentrated form of criminal. Often times
| minor criminals need to join racist gangs just to survive which
| Is inhumane.
|
| I think they should all be separated from each other. They should
| be put in single cells, and given access to as much education as
| they want, and just basically put on time out for weeks, months,
| years. Let them chat with their families and understand the hurt
| they did. Let them meditate on what they want to do with Their
| lives after. But keep them separated. It makes things safer for
| guards as well, lowering the tension.
|
| What we are doing now is useless, inhumane, and
| counterproductive.
| lazyasciiart wrote:
| Solitary confinement is literally inhumane and drives people to
| suicide. This is one of the only realistic suggestions I can
| imagine that would make the US prison system _worse_.
| RickWolter wrote:
| just want to add that you are correct imo. confinement was
| overall the very worst experience of my 18 years in prison.
| sgt wrote:
| I can imagine that is true. I think OP has some rationale,
| but he/she has done very little second order thinking of
| the consequences of such isolation. It's very easy to make
| such harsh armchair statements on the Internet, but I think
| more reflection is needed.
| buf wrote:
| I've also been to prison.
|
| My story is homeless at 20, no friends or family, in debt about
| $20k and just got out of prison as a convicted felon.
|
| Now I've built 2.5 unicorns, one of which I helped start. Right
| now, I've started two side projects that are nearing the $1M ARR
| (combined).
|
| Programming is a great leveler in today's world. I cannot express
| how lucky I am to have found it early in my life.
|
| I have a great desire to give back, and somehow fix recidivism in
| the USA, but it feels so unreachable. I've heard that 70M Jobs
| was shutting down, and I reached out to the owner, but he brushed
| me off in an email. At some point, I'd like to give it a real
| shot.
| ravenstine wrote:
| That is an amazing story! I'm glad you made it out and have
| found a kind of success many ex convicts don't find.
|
| I never went to prison, but similarly, I'm not sure the person
| I was before my software career would have faired well if
| programming wasn't an option. It's such a practical skill that
| not only can be learned for free but is lucrative and opens all
| sorts of doors for people to be entrepreneurs.
|
| I hate to be one of those "learn to code" people, but sometimes
| it is hard for me not to evangelize. I'm of the opinion that a
| successful career in coding doesn't require the kind of genius
| intelligence that many, including a lot of HNers, think it
| does. Mindset is way more important than IQ, and writing "good"
| code isn't even that high of importance most of the time. More
| people can get into it than they think, and some of them should
| before the inevitable day that a hypothetical GPT algorithm can
| do everything a current day mid-level software engineer can.
| stackbutterflow wrote:
| Being a good enough developer to build a career in this field
| doesn't require a high IQ but it does require a special kind
| of mindset as you said.
|
| I also used to think that everyone could learn to code but I
| came to realize that this mindset can't be learned. Some
| people maybe discover that they have this mindset later in
| life and that's why learn to code is still a useful piece of
| advice because it'll reach them but once you've tapped into
| the fixed % of the population that do have this mindset you
| can't expand it more.
|
| It's not to say others are doomed, there are other mindsets
| that exists for every professions. Maybe some of them can
| become great PMs or great small business owners or
| accountants. But coding is out of reach for a large portion
| of the population just like developers tend to be very poor
| salespeople and couldn't "learn to sale" if their income
| relied on it.
| atemerev wrote:
| I teach coding. The mindset absolutely can be learned, but
| indeed, you need to learn some attitude, not just skills.
| But a teacher can show how it is done; the exploration, the
| part when you do not give up when you encounter an error,
| etc.
|
| In my experience, the most significant first barrier is the
| command line and the environment setup. This is why I
| always start with explaining the Unix shell and ssh. It
| gets a lot easier from there.
| stackbutterflow wrote:
| Maybe you're right. But I've mentored a few college
| students on the side.
|
| All interested in programing and in pursuing a CS degree
| and yet some of them wanted only the solution. They were
| not interested in why their code didn't work or what the
| error was, they wanted me to jump in and give them the
| solution.
|
| It's like they liked the idea of being a developer like
| many like the idea of becoming a writer, but they didn't
| have that mindset, that stubbornness and willingness to
| spend hours reading some shitty incomplete readme, going
| through dozens of GitHub issue threads, googling
| compiler's errors, reading the doc, trying until it works
| and feeling that rush of pleasure once it compiles/do
| whatever you want your program to do.
|
| And some of them couldn't grasp some basic, fundamental
| concepts like a for loop or accessing a method on an
| object after two semesters in a CS program.
| buf wrote:
| I believe there are fewer and fewer "American Dream" jobs, to
| where you can start from nothing and emerge financially
| independent with a decent retirement (e.g. doctors, lawyers,
| programming).
|
| Convicts really only have a few realistic options
|
| 1. Programming 2. Starting their own business
| ravenstine wrote:
| For sure. This is why I think there is a definite ethical
| element to the kind of automation we are inventing. Not to
| say that automation isn't inevitable, but I don't think I
| would feel good about myself pushing the process along.
|
| And yeah, non "AI" tech is still automation, but at least
| the option to be a programmer without having to be a genius
| with Tensorflow is still there.
| JohnCurran wrote:
| If you want to give back, consider hiring from the organization
| Rick (subject of the podcast) started - Underdog Devs.
|
| It's a loosely collected group of mentors and mentees with a
| small dedicated group of full-time learners on a stipend
| program
|
| The #1 challenge, by far, faced by the org is hiring and
| placement into companies for cohort graduates and mentees.
|
| If you're able, consider posting job listings in the UD slack
|
| https://www.underdogdevs.org/
|
| *I am part of the group as a mentor and its been on the whole
| an incredibly positive experience
| thrownaway561 wrote:
| right here... hire convicted felons. go to the nearest prison
| and work with inmates there that are getting out in a year to
| teach them programming or whatever position you need filled
| so when they get out they have a job and the confidence to
| keep that job.
| buf wrote:
| I'm in. Just DMed the UD twitter account to get an invite
| into the slack group.
| JohnCurran wrote:
| That's awesome - If, for some reason, they don't get back
| to you let me know and I will get you into the Slack
| buf wrote:
| Okay, will do. Just in case, you can send the invite to
| ex [at] siliconvict com
| deeg wrote:
| Ex-cons have a tough time getting jobs and this can help lead to
| recidivism. It seems like programming would be a great way to
| keep felons from going back to prison. Getting paid to WFH on an
| open source project would be low risk.
| paulpauper wrote:
| most people have a tough time getting goods jobs. it's not
| uncommon for many people to apply some a single mid-salary
| opening.
| [deleted]
| RickWolter wrote:
| Hey everyone. My names Rick. Im the person Adam is interviewing.
| If any of you are interested in learning more about Underdog
| Devs, please reach out to us on Twitter @RwoltX and @UnderdogDevs
| or directly to underdogdevs.org
|
| We are always looking for people who would like to get involved
|
| the most common involvement is mentoring and pair programming
|
| we also could use help in other areas...someone to help develop
| partnerships, admin, and general marketing.
|
| as for donations ... Everything we receive goes directly to the
| mission. We do not take a dime to pay for any salaries. None of
| us do. We work as volunteers. Every penny we receive goes to
| learning resources and to the stipend program to pay the bills of
| our most gritty who are held back due to their financial
| situation.
| sgt wrote:
| I enjoyed the podcast and also reading your balanced replies on
| Hacker News. It seems like you're not easily offended and
| you've had enough experience to understand why people take
| other (extreme) views.
| RickWolter wrote:
| thanks. I try.
| agumonkey wrote:
| I found you so optimistic in tone about your path, the
| randomness, the unfairness.. it was very strange to me, I'm so
| quickly angry.
|
| Good luck for the rest
| adam_gyroscope wrote:
| I'm a mentor for Underdog Devs and love it! Happy to answer any
| questions.
| anon3355987 wrote:
| (Long time member, but anon for this one, sry)
|
| I'll bite. True story.
|
| This company hired a young guy. _Extremely_ likable dude. (100%
| female, if that matters) HR _loves_ him, not likes, _loves_ him.
| Undenyably charming chap. He 's hired in a technical position
| despite having no real education in IT or Computer Science, nor
| any previous experience.
|
| Turns out he was involved in a fairly recent murder case, did
| pre-arrest and out on bail. Never mentioned any of it on his
| CV/application. Things only suface when his trial and subsequent
| post conviction jailtime comes up.
|
| So, he hired a few other guys to break in and rob an elderly
| person, who had under his charms confided in him she had a safe
| full of shinies. Not just hired, he drove them to the site to
| commit the robbery. They end up killing the eldery woman during
| the breakin/robbery. The safe turned out to be a fancifull story
| the granny told the guy.
|
| Murder wasn't solved, but his hired hands start balckmailing him,
| threathning to rat him out (he was a waiter in a place the
| elderly woman fequented, where he charmed her). As the blackmail
| progresses, he sees no way out and walks to the police to cut a
| deal.
|
| Trial happens, he gets convicted with a light sentence because of
| ''cooperation'', and after not too long here he is back at the
| company. HR sends out feelers to the employees (it's a small
| company of around 50 employees), but it is clear they're still
| 100% charmed and the whole thing is just to see who would quit
| once they hired him back so they can prepare.
|
| Now for the kicker: While he was at the company before the trial,
| and before the company had any idea of his past, he had pitched a
| SaaS market platform scheme for 'services to the elderly',
| involving a full database of sensitive info on elderly persons
| living alone at home.
|
| After his (very) short jail sentence, he is hired back by the
| company on the same scheme.
|
| Now I've always been an open minded person. I think people can
| change (infrequently mind you, but possible). But there seem to
| be too many notes here to not call it a symphony. I have worked
| with charming psychopaths in the past as has anyone who has been
| in this business for some time, and you do get better at spotting
| certain things.
|
| Your thoughts?
| Beltalowda wrote:
| I think the parallels between your story and Rick's story are
| few; the only one I see is that they both spent some time in
| prison.
|
| Rick was a stupid 17-year old kid who did a stupid thing, and
| ended up being hired as a software dev two decades later in his
| late 30s after growing out of his stupidness as many stupid
| kids do.
|
| Your guy committed a calculated crime very recently as an
| adult, and generally seems like a conman and a bit of a twat
| from your description.
|
| This is one of those things where the specifics just make a
| world of difference. "Spent time in prison" just isn't detailed
| enough to make any sort of judgement one way or the other.
| RickWolter wrote:
| > I have worked with charming psychopaths in the past as has
| anyone who has been in this business for some time, and you do
| get better at spotting certain things.
|
| how many charming psychopaths have you worked with ? And what
| have you spotted? I seriously laughed out loud when I read
| that.
|
| what is the point in your comment? To try and discredit me?
| what for? to harm underdog devs?
|
| you cant expect me to take that analogy serious...you compare
| someone who actively seeks to cause harm with someone who made
| a terrible choice as a teenager, hasn't been in trouble in over
| 20 years, and spends his free time helping people for free?
|
| Theres no way you can be serious. you know what I think....I
| think youre full of shit. I think you made that story up and I
| think you have some personal issue with me or underdog devs.
| Probably why youre using a burner.
|
| at least you think im charming so theres that
| anon3355987 wrote:
| @RickWolter This has nothing to do with your story. I do not
| think I said anything to state or even imply imply that. It
| was not an 'analogy', not an attempt to 'discredit' neither
| you nor the organization. I have/had respect for both you and
| underdog devs, the work you have put in and the goals of the
| org. I do admit that the way you responded has not increased
| that respect to put it mildly. It certainly was not
| ''charming''. But hey, we all have our bad days I guess.
|
| As to 'What is the point in your comment?'
|
| I posted the experiences because it was/is a truly troubling
| situation for many at the company. Since this topic came up
| in general, thought I'd ask for advice from what I assumed
| people with more experience in these matters. Apparently,
| that is assumed bad faith. Isn't it sad that we have come to
| this where we can no longer can have questions or
| discussions? 'I think youre full of shit. I think you made
| that story up and I think you have some personal issue with
| me or underdog devs'? Seriously? I had never heard of you or
| underdog devs before this post.
|
| I use a 'burner' because if I used my real account it would
| be _very_ easy to find out the company and people directly
| involved, and that is not what I want.
|
| And yes, you will find psychopaths in business. I don't think
| it is possible to have a full carreer without running into a
| few. And no matter how preparared you are, the best ones will
| fool you, sometimes even for considerable time. My advice
| there would be, if you see them decloack on others, do not
| assume they will not on you.
|
| I feel realy sad you took this so wrong. I guess the net
| realy has no place for good faith inquiry anymore.
| RickWolter wrote:
| I misunderstood you. I thought the "But there seem to be
| too many notes here to not call it a symphony" was
| referring to me. I thought you were insinuating I was a
| psychopath.
|
| I apologize. I clearly didnt understand what you were
| saying.
|
| your reason for the burner makes sense. Im just so used to
| people using burners to troll that I assumed that was the
| reason. We have had more than a few people harass us by
| trolling our zoom talks and our posts.
| jrz813 wrote:
| "Yes they still work here after everything we already know.
| What do we do?"
| anon1922 wrote:
| Not all prison sentences are the same. I am in a trial case for
| possession of illegal pornography (yes, that..). My name came out
| in the media on the day of my arrest, and society has already
| concluded the trial years before it is scheduled to take place.
| Lost the tech-related job, had to move out, lost all social
| interactions, etc. I've had severe mental health issues and a
| very difficult past so I had always been searching for therapy
| without much success, but that made it even harder.
|
| On the plus side, all these years I've put to some use in
| learning that if nobody can help you with therapy you can still
| build it back up yourself. Pick from all the toolsets of DBT,
| CBT, read with a critical mind zen or buddhist writings, use the
| time to figure out what healing and coping are and how to put it
| in practice at every moment, and moment-to-moment. And I've only
| done all of that because when all things fell apart a couple
| people still stood by me and I figured I couldn't trust myself a
| whole lot more than I could trust their hearts, so I put in the
| work.
|
| Doesn't exactly matter though, because prison will hit like a
| truck even though I was socially sentenced years ago, and pretty
| much every single program I've ever heard of for people "from
| prison" would use murder as the paramount example, but nobody
| will touch my kind of conviction with a ten foot pole.
|
| All the sexual offenders I've been in group therapy with were
| either leaning on secrecy (jobs that don't do background checks,
| their names having remained undisclosed to the public, etc) or
| they were at the end of their rope. I have a couple people in my
| life who love me and am thankful for their help, but I very much
| suspect I'll fall in the latter category when justice officially
| passes over me.
| Joel_Mckay wrote:
| While some may think life is unfair, the fact remains that
| recidivism rates are high. No one wants to be a cautionary tale
| for being complicit with a sensitive area of a business. The
| reason prisons don't like people freely using computers/phones,
| is many prisoners feel justified in blackmailing other inmates
| families and scamming the public.
|
| Some may get away with breaking rules even while serving a
| sentence, but that same lack of impulse control is what keeps
| people poor. The world does not change, and people must adapt to
| the reality of their situation.
| lostboomerang wrote:
| Rick Wolter seems to be quite balanced. Read the last paragraph
| "Life's Not Fair".
|
| Problem is that some people read his story and thinks. "Oh, so
| teaching felons programming is a great way to reduce recidivism".
|
| This kind of be-all-end-all solution always fails. Some years ago
| journalists in the US loved to tell coal miners that they should
| "learn to code" when the mines shut down due to Washington
| politics. How hard could it be?
|
| When media corporations started laying off journalists in droves
| a few years later, the journalists did not find "Learn to code"
| suggestions useful or even funny.
|
| A more general solution to reduce recidivism should probably
| consist of two initiatives:
|
| 1) Educate felons when they're in prison. It doesn't have to be
| programming. It can be a craft, something academic, programming
| (if they feel like it) or some other skill. Whatever.
|
| 2) Reform the prison system, so inmates are treated as humans.
| E.g. with private corporations running prisons in the US, they
| have a strong motivation to create "recurring guests". Contrast
| this with e.g. prisons in Scandinavia
| (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IepJqxRCZY) that have the
| lowest rates of recidivism.
|
| We know how to reduce recidivism. It is not an easy "learn to
| code" exercise. But are the US willing to make the changes
| necessary to create meaningful impact on the rates of recidivism
| - or shall we continue to be fed "pull yourself up by the
| bootstraps! We found one guy who did it, and so can you!"
| stories?
| paulpauper wrote:
| _This kind of be-all-end-all solution always fails. Some years
| ago journalists in the US loved to tell coal miners that they
| should "learn to code" when the mines shut down due to
| Washington politics. How hard could it be?_
|
| Did this even happen? I cannot find any articles in which
| miners were told to learn to code. I think instead those miners
| were offered vocational training, which included coding. This
| was in 2017.
|
| maybe this is what they were talking about
|
| https://venturebeat.com/entrepreneur/dev-bootcamp-shuttering...
| ejb999 wrote:
| >>Did this even happen? I cannot find any articles in which
| miners were told to learn to code.
|
| Then I guess you really didn't look to hard:
|
| https://thehill.com/changing-
| america/enrichment/education/47...
|
| snip:
|
| "During a rally yesterday, Democratic presidential candidate
| Joe Biden spoke to a crowd in Derry, N.H., a town that many
| miners call home. He acknowledged the economic setbacks and
| job insecurity that coal miners face these days, and gave
| them some advice: learn to code."
| kodah wrote:
| Didn't even know Joe Biden did it, but Hillary Clinton did
| it too and it's what spawned the "#learn2code" hashtag on
| Twitter. It just got nastier from there.
| paulpauper wrote:
| But that came later .I am referring 2017 when this became a
| meme. Also Biden is not a journalist.
| lostboomerang wrote:
| Just to add a small sample of mainstream media (Wired, NYT,
| NPR) running similar articles:
|
| https://twitter.com/ComfortablySmug/status/1090080758126075
| 9...
| RickWolter wrote:
| coincidentally at Underdog Devs we took in some of the
| students from that failed project. It was called Mined Mines.
| A few still made it later and became software devs, but the
| majority didnt work out.
| Beltalowda wrote:
| > "Life's Not Fair".
|
| "I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I
| thought, 'wouldn't it be much worse if life _were_ fair, and
| all the terrible things that happen to us come because we
| actually deserve them? '
|
| So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and
| unfairness of the universe."
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03bOrvlAyeQ
|
| > are the US willing to make the changes necessary to create
| meaningful impact on the rates of recidivism - or shall we
| continue to be fed "pull yourself up by the bootstraps! We
| found one guy who did it, and so can you!" stories?
|
| I think what the US first needs is a general cultural shift
| towards crime and criminals. I don't want to generalize too
| much, but the general attitude is that criminals are barely
| human monsters, and that every bad thing that happens for the
| rest of your life is "don't do the crime then!!!111" You know,
| stuff like this.[1] And don't even get me started on things
| like "At $249 per day, prison stays leave ex-inmates deep in
| debt" from last week.[2]
|
| Funny how such an allegedly Christian nation doesn't seem to
| understand forgiveness. Guess I didn't read the Bible right
| _shrug_.
|
| Things are changing, slowly, but there's still a long road
| ahead.
|
| [1]:
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/05/08/...
|
| [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32621642
| KBeyo wrote:
| I work with people in prison, or as they are commonly referred
| to within some circles, justice involved individuals.
|
| The issue here is not skilling these people in trades, it's
| really about working on mental health and the underlying
| reasons why they are in prison. Until those challenges are
| addressed, these people mostly will not succeed. Many have not
| experienced much of a << normal >> family life or friendships
| that promote personal growth, or mentorship.
|
| On top of that, when many are released they have nothing. So,
| imagine trying to stay employed for a week when you have
| nowhere to live (especially hard to rent a place also when you
| have a record[1].
|
| Anyway, we might know how to reduce recidivism, but society
| sure doesn't seem interested in taking the steps to invest
| what's needed.
|
| [1] I recently spoke in front of the Colorado Senate concerning
| Assembly Bill 99 which will auto-erase the records of non-
| violent offenders in the state with some outcomes being that
| they can more easily find employment and rent places to live.
| vlovich123 wrote:
| There should be free transitionary housing on-prem on-site
| with the prison. You still get free housing and food and
| you're not monitored / can come and go as you please. But it
| gives you a stable address and base of operations from which
| you build your new life. This isn't halfway house which are
| dorms - you literally get your own space.
|
| I also have wondered whether probation officers have a
| positive or negative impact overall on recidivism. It feels
| like forcing people to have an additional stress layer that
| can send them back to prison on top of everything else isn't
| actually helpful.
| legerdemain wrote:
| > You still get free housing and food
|
| In almost all US states, prison stays aren't free. The
| costs are often similar to a multi-year hotel stay.
| erdos4d wrote:
| > Anyway, we might know how to reduce recidivism, but society
| sure doesn't seem interested in taking the steps to invest
| what's needed.
|
| The current "justice" system is a huge jobs program all
| around, and it is predicated on a persistently large mass of
| criminals who scare the crap out of the public. If they go
| away, so do cops, lawyers, prison jobs, and all the ancillary
| positions which feed off them. Society needs to own up to
| this fact and figure out what to do with all those people,
| especially the ones who live in rural areas which are
| completely dependent on prisons. I really feel the economics
| are what keep mass incarceration going year after year, no
| matter how many stories get written about it, or how awful
| everyone agrees it is.
| incone123 wrote:
| "justice involved individuals"
|
| Do you find prisoners/former prisoners get any benefit from
| new labels like this?
|
| Timpson Group uses non euphemistic language: "people who have
| criminal convictions", and proactively hires them.
|
| https://www.timpson-group.co.uk/timpson-foundation/ex-
| offend...
| RickWolter wrote:
| my 2 cents .... its unnecessary. It often then just leads
| to me having to explain what that term means. I would much
| rather use formerly incarcerated. Its a fairly neutral
| term, imo. Its not loaded with negative connotations like
| terms such as convict.
|
| Also the term "justice impacted" seems to strip us of all
| agency. I would like to retain at least a smidgen of
| autonomy in my decision making.
| indymike wrote:
| > Colorado Senate concerning Assembly Bill 99 which will
| auto-erase the records of non-violent offenders
|
| Being able to expunge records helps, but if you really want
| to help people with criminal records re-enter the workforce,
| you have to fix business liability insurance. Insurers often
| the ones forcing the issue in hiring practices by rate
| increase or by clauses that will not cover an ex-offender. A
| rate increase for a 200 employee company will cost what
| hiring 3-4 people costs, so everyone wants to help until they
| find out what the hidden costs are. In Indiana we fixed this,
| and it is much easier to hire people with records, and did
| more to help expunging records.
|
| Removing records does not help much when asked "have you ever
| been convicted" and get caught telling less than the truth.
| The lie itself is often considered moral turpitude by the
| employer. Laws that make it ok to lie, never work as expected
| for anyone.
| lostboomerang wrote:
| You are right.
|
| I'm sorry my message came a bit across like "Just copy
| Scandinavia, then everything will be great". Obviously that
| isn't the case. My point was that there's no easy solution to
| reduce recidivism, but if we need to start somewhere it might
| be better to look into incentives created by the current
| prison system than learning inmates to code.
|
| That doesn't solve the whole cultural view on inmates, the
| social and psychological problems that placed a lot of them
| in the prison in the first place, etc. etc. etc.
| rufus_foreman wrote:
| >> Educate felons when they're in prison
|
| That's dangerous. I know people who went to prison.
|
| We want educated ex-felons, what you might get is educated
| felons.
|
| >> We know how to reduce recidivism
|
| Do we? Again, I know criminals. They're hard core. A guy says
| he's gonna shoot up meth every day until he dies, he's going to
| finance that any way he needs to, what is the known way to
| reduce that recidivism?
| throwaway675309 wrote:
| I legitimately can't tell if this post was written
| facetiously, what's your alternative? because the alternative
| of giving them no education is almost a sure fire guarantee
| that they'll be ill-equipped to be able to get a job with the
| potential to become a productive member of society.
|
| He's not advocating that we teach lock picking 101 for
| chr##-sake.
|
| But it's OK because you "know criminals" so naturally that
| extrapolates to all criminals in perpetuity throughout the
| universe.
| rufus_foreman wrote:
| >> the alternative of giving them no education is almost a
| sure fire guarantee that they'll be ill-equipped to be able
| to get a job with the potential to become a productive
| member of society
|
| These are my friends that I'm talking about. They don't
| want to be, will never be, and never could be if they
| wanted to, productive members of society.
|
| What's your alternative?
|
| I can sure fire guarantee you that they'll be ill-equipped
| to be able to get a job with the potential to become a
| productive member of society, no matter what happens.
|
| So what happens to them?
|
| Seriously, you're making me defend meth addicts. Christ.
| [deleted]
| satysin wrote:
| God I fucking _hate_ the response "learn to code!" to
| everything.
|
| People seem to think everyone being a programmer is needed
| otherwise humanity will fall. Honestly it is one of the
| stupidest things I have heard.
|
| Could more [good] programmers be a good thing? Sure, we can
| always do with more good programmers.
|
| However the truth is we need more of many, many types of
| people. Teachers, personal care workers, doctors, nurses, etc.
|
| Not everyone _wants_ to be a programming. Not everyone _can_ be
| a programmer.
|
| Can I teach anyone to write Hello World or a simple number game
| in Python? Of course, same way I can teacher anyone to track
| their budget in a basic Excel file.
|
| But I can't take _anyone_ and teach them Excel to be a
| spreadsheet wizard for the finance department. Believe me I
| know this from first hand experience :)
|
| What we need is an open, fair and _free_ education system to
| encourage people of [almost] all ages to do what they are good
| at and enjoy. We put far too much positive spin on learning to
| code as if it is the answer to every god damn problem in the
| world.
| zozbot234 wrote:
| Teachers, doctors, nurses etc. can use code to simplify their
| jobs and make themselves more productive. Not everyone needs
| to be a professional coder, but being aware of what code is
| and how it works should absolutely be a basic skill. No
| different than reading or math.
| Test0129 wrote:
| I would be very curious how a doctor or nurse could use
| programming to improve their jobs. Aside from a conduit of
| fun brain teasers which may have some ancillary
| benefit...every doctor and nurse I know spends almost no
| time in front of a computer except for brief data entry.
| Actual real "medical" programming occurs by professional
| engineers in highly regulated environments (and for good
| reason).
|
| Teachers I could possibly see but even then much of this
| has been optimized away. If you lower the bar of "learning
| to code" to learning excel I'd tend to agree with you. No
| reason to hack together a set of python scripts to grade
| papers, and the actual useful work of generating random
| test questions, etc has been automated away by software
| nearly every school uses.
|
| The difference between reading, math, and programming is
| that reading and math are _fundamental_. Math teaches
| logical, methodical thinking. Reading teaches the ability
| to well...read. Programming on the other hand is a higher
| level abstraction of math. Mathematicians tend to become
| good programmers. To me, this would imply we simply need to
| teach more math. It 's very simple to say "it should be a
| basic skill" but there are other, far more fundamental,
| skills we don't teach either. Why don't we teach machining
| or woodworking? For the average Joe these two would have
| infinitely more value both professionally and personally
| than learning how to fire up a terminal and write a basic
| python script.
|
| The problem that "learn to code" has, and the problem your
| suggestion has, is that even getting someone to "get" how
| to code is non-trivial. Once you move beyond the formulaic
| "here's how to put these pieces together to make a website"
| suddenly everyone gets lost. I've seen this not only in
| people I've attempted to mentor, but also being an
| interviewer at a large tech company regularly seeing code
| camp graduates coming from fields like teaching, food, etc.
| These people miss the point of the exact thing you suggest:
| programming is a conduit for productivity in an underlying
| field and "learning to code" is a means to an end and not
| the goal.
|
| There certainly are people "cut out to be programmers" and
| this societal shift to "everyone can be anything they want"
| has really disenfranchised a lot of people. We never want
| to talk about it because the idea life is fundamentally
| unfair is seen as taboo. But it is, and it is the reason
| code camps produce garbage in 80% of cases and the reason
| drop out rates in CS programs are so high. The high flying
| high school kid getting an $XXX,000 salary is an extreme
| edge cases promoted as a common case. The guy who automates
| half his job as a data entry clerk was probably fit for
| professional grade programming anyway. We are guilty of
| this perpetuation ourselves.
| UncleEntity wrote:
| > Once you move beyond the formulaic "here's how to put
| these pieces together to make a website" suddenly
| everyone gets lost.
|
| Maybe because "learn to code" really means "learn to make
| websites"?
|
| I never learned how to make websites, never coded a line
| of JavaScript and have no idea what people who do those
| things are talking about with their frameworks and
| whatever but I know how to _code_ so could probably
| figure it out fairly easily if I was motivated enough.
|
| Maybe if they taught people how to _use_ the language
| instead of how to glue together different bits of library
| code things would be different. Probably not a full CS
| curriculum but more than _React in 30 days_.
| squeaky-clean wrote:
| My cousin is a radiologist and I taught him a bit of
| python so he could create a GUI tool to help him write
| some reports. Apparently only about 5% of what he writes
| needs to be his own notes, the other 95% is boiler-plate
| that varies based on what his 5% is.
|
| Before he used to have like 30 MS Word documents that
| acted as templates for his most common situations. He
| basically had a psuedocode workflow on sticky notes he
| already used that was really easy to turn into real
| python.
|
| It's not a fabulous project or anything but he gets to
| spend a bit more time looking at each case, and also gets
| to go home sooner.
| Akronymus wrote:
| > People seem to think everyone being a programmer is needed
| otherwise humanity will fall.
|
| Programming is truly fun for a very select group of people.
| (I count myself as one of those( But even then, as a job it
| is almost always miserable in some form.
|
| I encourage people to check it out if its for them, I dont
| think they should be gaslit into becoming programmers.
| squeaky-clean wrote:
| Yeah I encourage lots of people to try coding as a hobby
| the same way I encourage everyone to learn an instrument.
| Do it! Have fun!
|
| But telling someone to learn to code as a career choice is
| only slightly less insulting than saying to learn guitar as
| a career choice.
| RickWolter wrote:
| Obviously not everyone wants to learn to code. I dont think
| anyone mistakenly believes that.The (possibly overused)
| advice to learn to code is prevalent because software is
| prevalent
|
| Ill repeat what ive said elsewhere...It is a legit path to a
| rewarding job which is open to those without degrees and who
| might have felonies on record.
|
| Since starting Underdog Devs Ive seen it over and over. With
| real commitment its very attainable. We have many success
| stories which seem like outliers, however they consistently
| happen.
|
| This isn't something Ive read, its something we've done over
| and over with mentees. I get that youre tired of that trite
| bit of advice, but its happening for a lot of people. There
| are a lot of people who have had their entires life changed
| through that skill. Definitely not the solution for everyone,
| but it is the solution for some.
| satysin wrote:
| Hi Rick, nice to see you here I was not expecting the
| subject of the piece to be here so that is pretty cool.
|
| > I dont think anyone mistakenly believes that
|
| Unfortunately many people do. I volunteer here in France
| teaching mostly teens the basics of programming but it is
| open to all and I quite often have adults that have been
| convinced they should know how to code by the "learn to
| code!" messages that seem to be _everywhere_ the past
| decade or so.
|
| Many of these people get upset when they struggle beyond
| the basics which is probably 60-70% of people going by how
| many complete the course. I did wonder if perhaps I just
| suck as a teacher but comparing the numbers not just across
| those I work with but across the whole country the figure
| is the same. Just seems two thirds of people can't or don't
| have an interest to push passed the wall once they hit it.
|
| > It is a legit path to a rewarding job which is open to
| those without degrees and who might have felonies on
| record.
|
| I 100% agree with you here. After all I myself have been a
| professional programmer for near twenty years now and love
| it so much I give my time to others to help them see if
| they have the same love for programming as I do. I have
| taught dozens of people from ~11 years old up to mid-40s
| how to code that have gone on to have careers as
| developers.
|
| > With real commitment its very attainable.
|
| This is a big point. It takes commitment. Many people can't
| or won't commit. Sometimes it is that they can't do it for
| whatever reason but many times they don't commit because
| they never had that spark which is clear you did. To them
| programming was boring. They didn't find it interesting
| solving some "silly" syntax issue instead they found it
| frustrating and would rather do something else.
|
| > There are a lot of people who have had their entires life
| changed through that skill.
|
| And that is awesome. Like I said in my first post I am very
| happy to see more good programmers enter the market. We
| need them.
|
| > Definitely not the solution for everyone, but it is the
| solution for some.
|
| The point in my original reply was that in my experience
| the whole "learn to code!" thing _is_ talked about as a
| solution for everyone. What frustrates me is there is so
| much invested into the learn to code "solution" that I see
| hardly any other options with the same kind of drive behind
| it.
|
| Now I can't talk about prison education systems as I have
| no knowledge of them. But I do know UK and French schools
| and my personal opinion it is unfairly pushed over almost
| everything else. Why? I am not privy to the decisions made
| higher up but from how I see things it is because it is
| cheap.
|
| Computers are cheap, resources are almost all free or close
| to free (YouTube is free, books are cheap, etc), the
| software needed is almost always free for education, etc.
| It can be done pretty much anywhere you have a power socket
| and it doesn't require special single purpose hardware. I
| know you know all this getting started with Python and
| OpenCourseWare after all.
|
| Simply put the financial barrier for entry to learning to
| code is very near zero and that is super attractive to
| schools.
|
| Anyway my first comment wasn't in any way an attack on
| people learning to code. I apologise if you felt that it
| was and hopefully this reply better explains why I feel the
| way I do.
|
| I am glad that learning to code has had such a positive
| impact on your life and wish you success in the future :)
| jrz813 wrote:
| I think you're forgetting we're talking about felons. I'm
| an underdog who is now a full-time software developer
| (thanks to the Underdogs & Rick ;) and trust me if I
| could be a doctor <insert career> that would take a felon
| I'd be happy to try. But here in America, it's not that
| easy. Especially when you have laws that flat out bar
| you. So though you might be right for your average
| citizen but once you get to our end it's not the same.
| Coding really is the best route for us felons. And thats
| from experiance.
| satysin wrote:
| > I think you're forgetting we're talking about felons.
|
| Yes I made a mistake not clarifying I was talking _in
| general_ about the push for learn to code programmes.
|
| For people incarcerated I agree a learn to code programme
| makes a hell of a lot of sense however so do many other
| career options as Rick mentioned in his reply
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32705015
| jrz813 wrote:
| HVAC is a good job.. so is a roofer.. and all
| construction.. and i used to do that and i dont knock it
| at all it kept my family fed BUT those are not careers i
| could recommend folks like me to try (because they're
| probably already doing that lol) Im just one of those
| annoying folks who just have to tell everyone especially
| felons to at least try coding. Ive already felt the
| financial impact in my life and its not the same.This
| stuff is life changing;)
| RickWolter wrote:
| I agree with everything you say here. I was unaware that
| people have taken it so seriously as to feel compelled to
| learn to code. I agree with you, its being marketed
| everywhere.
|
| And you are spot on about the other options (for
| employment) not being discussed. I think plumbing and
| HVAC (here in Florida HVAC techs are in constant demand)
| are reasonable options to pursue for many folks getting
| out but you dont see it discussed as much.
|
| Obviously the allure of a high salary is one of the
| reasons people talk about coding more but the consistent
| demand for the less discussed skills should be factored
| in. Its damn near a sure bet you can find work if you
| learn HVAC or plumbing. In all transparency I only have
| seen and heard of the demand second hand, I dont know for
| certain. Ive never done either of those trades.
|
| and no offense taken. Nonetheless thank you for
| explaining further.
| WhitneyLand wrote:
| Rick your story is so inspirational, congratulations on how
| far you've made it and being able to help other people.
|
| Good to see you here in the community.
| RickWolter wrote:
| thank you for the kind words. I was really lucky to get
| another chance considering the severity of my mistakes.
| Helping others get their life on track seems the least I
| could do.
| WesternWind wrote:
| Programming is a pathway to a middle class life for a lot of
| folks, but not everyone.
|
| But really the issue is that every job should be a pathway to
| a middle class life.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| Be honest, this whole post could be summed up as "damn I hope
| the good times could continue for us and I don't want more
| competition".
| satysin wrote:
| I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion tbh.
|
| Every week I teach teenagers and adults that want to learn
| to code. Almost all because they want a career as a
| software developer.
|
| I don't see those learning to code as competition in the
| way you seem to think I do.
| yarpnird wrote:
| > Teachers, personal care workers, doctors, nurses, etc.
|
| All of which having a criminal record disqualifies one from.
| satysin wrote:
| Depends on the crime, I know a few doctors and nurses that
| have criminal records. But I accept your point.
|
| However I was not talking about those with a criminal
| record. Like in the comment I was replying to where learn
| to code programmes were seen as the "solution" for coal
| miners whose mines were closed.
|
| Is it an option? Of course. Is it _the_ solution for _all_?
| Hardly but it is often treated as one so people can say
| "look we told you to learn to code and gave you access to a
| computer and resources but you didn't do it so it's not
| _my_ fault you 're jobless".
|
| To me it just comes across as a cheap and lazy way to say
| they 'did something' and blame the individual when it
| didn't work out.
|
| Just my opinion of course, you don't have to agree with it
| :)
| paulpauper wrote:
| What if those journalists had instead come out and said that
| miners are not smart enough to code. They would have gotten
| even more hate probably by the very same people. So you lose
| either way.
| zozbot234 wrote:
| Are journalists smart enough to code? More relevantly, are
| they smart enough to accurately inform the general public
| about the topics they cover? The commonality of Gel-Mann
| amnesia suggests otherwise.
| satysin wrote:
| Simple. Don't say either way.
|
| How often do we see "learn to code" as a _solution_ to jobs
| that have gone away for whatever reason? Over the past ~15
| years I 've seen it almost everywhere as literally the only
| advertised option for people whose profession has vanished.
|
| All I am saying is I wish as much was invested into _other_
| re-training options as we 've seen put into learn to code
| programmes.
| RickWolter wrote:
| I agree with much of what you said. You've also missed the
| point if you are referring to the non-profit Underdog Devs,
| which helps the formerly incarcerated become developers, with
| your bootstraps comment.
|
| If we could become software devs "by our own bootstraps" there
| would be no need for an Underdog Devs. Thats the point, support
| is needed.
|
| Overall I agree with you though, learning to code is not some
| panacea to cure recidivism. It is however a legit path to a
| rewarding job which is open to those without degrees and who
| might have felonies on record.
|
| Since starting Underdog Devs Ive seen it over and over. With
| real commitment its very attainable. We have many success
| stories which seem like outliers, however they consistently
| happen.
| whydoyoucare wrote:
| Regarding #2 - while I am all for reforming the US prison
| system, a direct comparison of US (prison) failure with
| Scandinavian (prison) success is unfair. It also risks creating
| misguided reforms, without properly understanding and
| addressing the social, economic, historical and geographical
| gaps between the two countries.
| lostboomerang wrote:
| You and @KBeyo are absolutely right.
|
| It is two different countries and very different cultures.
| Just modeling US prisons on Scandinavian ones is not a
| solution. I could even imagine it making things worse in the
| short-term (a banal example would be "so the prisoners in
| Norwegian prisons have access to knives in the kitchen they
| roam freely, let's try that in San Quentin"...)
|
| But I think we could start looking at the incentives the
| American prison system creates while also addressing the
| social issues that seems to be the root of a lot of the
| challenges. It is not easy and I can imagine it taking a
| century to solve unfortunately.
| nulbyte wrote:
| I don't think there was a suggestion to model prisons in
| the U.S. after others in Scandanavia, only a comparison to
| point out that if others have found a solution to
| recidivism that works in their society, we should be able
| to find one that works in ours.
| jmclnx wrote:
| I know a few people who were in prison, some for serious crimes.
|
| Based upon my very unscientific sample, many of these guys were
| pretty smart. It makes me wonder how their environment in school
| (peers and/or teachers) along with social pressure put some of
| them on that path.
|
| I hear if smart people are not engaged in classes, they get bored
| rather quickly and start doing poorly.
|
| When I was young, I remember many times teachers would focus on
| the kids having a hard time learning, which is understandable.
| But some of the smarter kids may decide "why bother" when not
| given attention they may crave.
| Mezzie wrote:
| I've dabbled in "gray" things but never anything that would get
| me sent to prison (I lack the risk tolerance), but in case, I
| turned to that kind of work because playing by the rules (at
| the time) got me nowhere. At the time, I was reliant on
| Medicaid to manage my progressive illness (MS) and was limited
| to earning ~1k a month.
|
| Which obviously wasn't enough to live on, so I started
| bartering and doing work under the table. The safest kind of
| under the table work is work where if it's discovered,
| everybody involved would be 'in trouble'. That way everybody
| has an incentive to Shut The Fuck Up.
|
| If you put smart people into corners, they're going to find
| ways outside of the system to prosper.
|
| Edit: Also, if you have the right skills, you can make BANK,
| especially since you don't pay taxes on illicit income. I at
| one point made ~$100/hr, and I _wasn 't_ doing anything
| illegal.
| soulofmischief wrote:
| For me it had nothing to do with attention... if you let me
| read my books quietly in class while you're wasting my time
| with a lecture I can absorb in two minutes at home, we don't
| have a problem. I'll show up and pass your test.
|
| Most of my teachers understood this and got out of my way. The
| ones who didn't understand caused me no end of problems in
| their attempts to force me to conform to expectations I never
| signed off on. I was the smartest (read: just the most
| motivated) kid at most of the schools I went to and also among
| the most frequently written up, punished or suspended.
|
| I had a reputation for getting sent to the office at least once
| every two weeks, _inevitably_ due to some form of "willful
| disobedience", which was just me refusing to buckle to any
| perceived narcissism or institutional coercion foisted upon me.
| Authority figures either hated that they could not control me,
| or warmly accepted that if they just left me alone I would pass
| their stupid tests with flying colors.
|
| It wasn't until my last two years of high school, when I was
| homeless and attending on my own cognizance, that teachers
| finally backed the fuck off and realized what they were dealing
| with. Except a single teacher. My transcripts were illegally
| altered by a teacher who felt that she had to "win" against me,
| and ultimately caused me 10 years of economic hardship after
| high school. I passed every class, had the highest test scores.
| and she still found a way to rob me of the multiple full-ride
| scholarship opportunities I had received for several
| engineering colleges, just to put a boot down on my face one
| last time on my way out. This was substantial enough to sue the
| school department over, but when you're homeless and your
| parents are drug addicts, you don't get these opportunities.
|
| _This_ is what an under-stimulated individual with no support
| structure looks like. And I felt the concerted institutional
| effort _every single step of the way_ to push me down and grind
| me into submission, to teach me I was a criminal for thinking
| for myself. I have a much more tolerant view of many forms of
| criminal behavior because of this experience and that is no
| accident.
| erdos4d wrote:
| > And I felt the concerted institutional effort every single
| step of the way to push me down and grind me into submission,
| to teach me I was a criminal for thinking for myself.
|
| I so relate to this. The people who run schools honestly
| believe that they are the one true way in society and if you
| aren't square with them, you are literally on a criminal
| path. You don't believe their values? Complete anti-social.
| Don't find their facts fun to regurgitate on command? Clearly
| an idiot. These people really are brainwashed in this way and
| that kids get forced through that system is a tragedy.
| soulofmischief wrote:
| It's a really bad filter, too. I used to get written up a
| lot (and punished/beaten at home) for drawing in class. If
| my characters had so much as a 1-inch knife on their heel,
| I was being hauled into the office for the latest round of
| Is-This-The-Next-Columbine, told I was drawing evil things.
| This happened incessantly throughout grade school.
|
| My guardians and schools formed an ad-hoc surveillance
| network where they all made sure I was never drawing Bad
| Things, and that I was always Adequately Punished. The
| insanely ironic thing is that I was unequivocally the first
| person who would have put their life in danger to protect
| the lives of their peers. Because of my upbringing I have a
| compulsion to protect others at my expense and would never
| dream of aiming a firearm at someone who wasn't an
| immediate threat to my safety. But while white supremacists
| around me were sharpening their views on the playground, I
| was the easy target.
|
| I obviously didn't pursue a career in art and still
| struggle with personal identity and creativity because of
| this.
| amelius wrote:
| Reminds me of the author of ReiserFS, where the story went in the
| opposite direction.
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