[HN Gopher] Thunderbolt, Displayport and Docks ___________________________________________________________________ Thunderbolt, Displayport and Docks Author : Hackbraten Score : 273 points Date : 2022-09-04 12:30 UTC (10 hours ago) (HTM) web link (stderr.nl) (TXT) w3m dump (stderr.nl) | francisofascii wrote: | Is this complexity the reason why docks are so pricy? I still | don't get why docks cost more than the actual monitors I am | trying to connect to. | banana_giraffe wrote: | I have an ultrawide monitor on such a dock. I have three laptops | (work, personal, so's laptop). It's been a never ending quest to | figure this mess out. | | I've had one cable fail, and one dock fail. I now own three | thunderbolt cables, and two working docks, and a dead one. | | Personal laptop has 3 USB-C ports, only one of which is | Thunderbolt. If I forget and use the more conveniently placed | USB-C port, the resolution is limited. If I neglect to connect it | to power first, it won't reliably connect to the dock. | | Work laptop will connect, but will always decide I want 1080P, I | have to manually adjust the resolution each time. I have noticed | if the monitor is set to 120 HZ, the laptop refuses to | acknowledge it exists. 240 or 60 HZ works. | | SO's laptop was quite the quest. It works now, but originally it | refused to activate the display. Other ports on the dock worked, | the display itself worked with a single DisplayPort -> | Thunderbolt cable. The display was listed in the graphics card | driver software when connected via the dock, it just refused to | allow me to enable it. Things would work without a display | driver, or a really old version of the driver. Various driver | removal utilities didn't help. I flattened the laptop and | installed the latest drivers. Things work for now. | | I've come away from this mess with a setup that mostly works, but | surely doesn't feel stable. And if it stops working, I have | basically no clue as to why. Could be a failed part, could be a | driver issue, nothing really gives me any feedback as to why it's | not working. | fnordpiglet wrote: | I for one miss the world of VESA and RS232. Those were the | days! | idealmedtech wrote: | You mean VGA? Most every monitor these days still has VESA | mounting holes. | antod wrote: | Assuming you weren't trolling, VESA has had many more | standards than just the mounting brackets. eg Display Port | is one of theirs | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Electronics_Standards_A | s... | zzo38computer wrote: | I also think that RS232, etc are better. I also think that it | is better to have separate cables for audio/video (I would | use one way digital video (with encryption or other | complications) and balanced analog audio; can a variant RCA | connector be made which is capable of balanced signal while | also compatible either way with non-balanced too?), and to | have separate ports for different purposes and numbers that | they are addressable by, which is more secure and also to be | able to address them by software in the computer by which | port they are connected to. (I think USB is bad in many other | ways too, though.) | BitwiseFool wrote: | 'One port to rule them all' was a mistake. Instead of being | convenient, USB C has become a confusing ordeal of varying | capabilities and quality control. It is like we've gone back to | having many different types of connectors, but it is even worse | because they share the same form factor. For any of the devices | that use USB C to charge, I _only_ use the cable that came with | it when I purchased it. | | While I complain, I would also like to mention the USB forum's | insane naming strategy and non-obvious labeling system. Remember | when USB 3 was easily identifiable because of the blue plastic in | the port? | jayd16 wrote: | >For any of the devices that use USB C to charge, I only use | the cable that came with it when I purchased it. | | So at worst, it's break even with the proprietary cable | situation we had but with massive upside? | sholladay wrote: | I now regularly charge my laptop, camera, tablet, game | controllers, and friends' devices using the same charging cube | or battery and cable. That was impossible and hard to believe | even just ten years ago. The only odd one out is the iPhone. I | actually like the Lightning connector more - too bad it's | proprietary and has limited speed/power. | | I never experience incompatibility with my setup, but I'm sure | it does happen, especially with budget cables/devices. I'm not | sure what cables you've tried but I've had good luck with Anker | and Apple's newer cables. | cyborgx7 wrote: | I disagree. What we have now is so much better than what we | used to have. | | Better labeling would be a nice improvement, but I'll still | take the current state of things over what we used to have. | philistine wrote: | Let's start by not naming something USB4 2.0. Can anyone | explain how that can be a good idea? | crazygringo wrote: | Exactly. I don't want to go back to computers with 10 | different types of ports. Everything moving to USB-C is just | fantastic. | | It does suck that there are necessarily so many cable types | (basically boiling down to no/low/hi data x no/lo/hi power) | with no obvious good labeling system except for reading specs | on a box. | | But it's also not an issue for most people since most devices | come with their own cable. My laptop came with an appropriate | expensive USB-C power delivery cord, my USB lamp came with a | cheapo one, my expensive monitor came with an appropriate | expensive high-data Thunderbolt cable. And the manufacturers | usually sell or recommend the appropriate longer length cable | if you need that. | | The issues only arise when you're trying to do more | complicated things like use a USB hub, or run extremely long | distances. The fact that USB hubs work at all still often | seems like a minor miracle to me... | rblatz wrote: | So now I just need to remember which random cord came with | each device and if I somehow get confused just buy the most | expensive cord that I can find in hopes it supports all the | different things? | crazygringo wrote: | I don't know about you, but I keep my cables with my | devices, often they just stay plugged in. | | My monitor cord stays attached to my monitor. My external | hard drive cable stays attached to that. My phone charger | cord stays attached to my phone charger. Etc. | | Sure I have some extra old USB cables lying around from | old devices where I tossed the device and kept the cord | just in case... but generally speaking random cords isn't | really a problem. | cal85 wrote: | > I don't want to go back to computers with 10 different | types of ports ... not an issue for most people since most | devices come with their own cable | | What is the value of all the ports being the same if you | can't mix and match cables? | crazygringo wrote: | Easy -- that my laptop or desktop just has 2-4 thin, | high-quality USB-C ports that I can plug anything into. | | I can plug 2 devices in of the same type, without | worrying about there being only 1 port of that type. I | don't have to hunt for which port is where. I don't have | to worry that this one model of laptop is missing that | one type of port because there's only space for 7 on the | side with the ports. | | I could keep going... | int_19h wrote: | So long as you take some effort to ensure that your | charger and your cables are both compliant and full- | featured, you can then use them across all your USB-C | devices, which is extremely handy esp. when travelling. | paulmd wrote: | even if you could, what is the value-add of all the ports | being usb-c to begin with? | | what is my printer going to do with a displayport and | pcie channel? obviously it doesn't need to implement | those, but, it worked just fine with a USB Type-A 10gbps | connector, what is the value-add of pushing that to USB-C | at all? | bombcar wrote: | What we have works better "in general". But when it fails in | specific cases it's a real pain to diagnose. | | I immediately order a thunder bolt cable direct from apple | the moment I smell any issues, which often fixes it. | AdamN wrote: | Seems like it's really easy to diagnose - problem with | comms over a cable? 1/ is it seated correctly, 2/ are there | any obvious defects, 3/ are the specs of the cable and the | ports aligned? | | Having incompatible ports means 3/ disappears but since | many cables support multiple specs, it's nice to often have | a win when connecting two devices over a cable rather than | simply being blocked because the connector isn't compatible | physically. | mmis1000 wrote: | There are actually dedicated detector for detecting | charger compatibility or faulty cable. And they are | surprisingly not that expensive (rage from 20 to 40 usd | depends on spec and vendor). | | Something like, test the cable and get a resistance of | 0.6O ? Let's just toss it away. This will definitely fail | the usb protocol and stop devices from working properly | when charge at full speed. | | I actually found a few problematic cables with that. | These are pretty hard to find out normally because they | only fail when charges at full speed (cause the voltage | to drop too much) and transmits data at same time. | | Or test a charger that labels fast charging but don't | actually get any at all? The resistance changes a lot | when you touched the cable(probably the connection | between board and plug breaks)? Toss it away. They are | broken or fake, why bother keep them. | paulmd wrote: | got a brand/model name to look for on amazon or whatever? | happyopossum wrote: | > 3/ are the specs of the cable and the ports aligned? | | This is basically impossible to diagnose as ports and | cables are not marked with their supported specs. | pbronez wrote: | HDMI has the same mess. Ports don't tell you much. | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | _> What we have now is so much better than what we used to | have._ | | Agree. People are looking at the past with rose tinted | glasses or haven't lived through the '90s - '00 tech. Every | phone and electronic gadget had their own proprietary dock, | cable and connector for data and charging. Even many phones | had proprietary connectors for headphones instead of the | 3.5mm jack. It was a nightmare. | | You're phone is running out of battery while you're at the | bar/on vacation? Then good luck finding someone with the same | Motorola charger. Want to transfer your photos to your PC and | your 50pin Sony Ericsson data cable is acting up? Good luck | finding a cheap replacement on a short notice. Want to plug | in the phone's memory card in your laptop instead? Well, if | your laptop doesn't support Sony's proprietary Memory Stick | Pro Duo, then you're shit out of luck. | | And even those proprietary connectors had plenty of issues, | and manufacturers weren't even consistent, changing their | connectors every few years instead of sticking with one for | the long run. | | What we have today has certainly teething issues, but we're | on the right path. | maccard wrote: | > Agree. People are looking at the past with rose tinted | glasses or haven't lived through the '90s - '00 tech. Every | phone and electronic gadget had their own proprietary dock, | cable and connector for data and charging. Even many phones | had proprietary connectors for headphones instead of the | 3.5mm jack. It was a nightmare. | | You've missed the problematic point of where we are now. In | the mid 2010's, apple had lightning, and android was almost | certainly micro USB. If I had a USB port, and a cable that | fit, it would charge my phone effectively. Somewhere in the | transition to USB-C ,we lost that. | | > What we have today has certainly teething issues, but | we're on the right path. | | I disagree - we've missed the forest for the trees. I have | 4 mains to USB adapters in my home, and 2 USB-A plug | sockets. I also have 4 USB C-C cables, and 2 A-C cables | (which stay in the wall sockets). I use these to power 2 | phones, 2 pairs of earbuds, an M1 Macbook and and iPad. If | you pick an arbitrary cable and an arbitrary power adapter | and plug it into a device that fits, it will do anything | ranging from not work at all (with my anker wall charger | and any cable into both sets of earbuds), up to charging it | so quickly the device oveheats (140w USB c charger into | either phone). I've got 6 devices, 4 cables, and 4 plugs | that all have the same connection points that just don't | work properly together. Meanwhile if you go back to the mid | 2010's as per earlier, we had a lightning cable and a micro | USB cable - you knew it worked if it fit. | | That's before you get into the nonsense around Android | auto. I have a car with AA in it's head unit, and a USB | port for connectivity. I must ahve tried 5 different | branded cables before I found a reddit post that linked a | specific anker cable that works for my very specific | combination of car and device - I _never_ would have | figured that out on my own. | kec wrote: | > up to charging it so quickly the device oveheats (140w | USB c charger into either phone) | | That isn't how USB-PD works / a problem with USB itself, | The device being charged controls the rate of charge: | Sinks (in this case, your phone) request a voltage and | current from the source, going off of a list of what the | source reports that it supports. If the phone can only | support say 10W charging it's going to request 10W of | power regardless of how oversized the charger is. | paulmd wrote: | those sorts of fast-charge speeds are incredibly bad for | the battery regardless of whether the device will let it | do it - I think this is something the EU should step in | and regulate tbh, because that's a huge vector for | e-waste. _At best_ you 're changing the battery much more | frequently, which is still e-waste, and often those | devices are ending up in the trash because apple is the | only vendor with a serious battery-replacement programme. | third-party batteries are uniformly trash. | | set a maximum of a 1 hour charge speed and pop up a | notification that allows the user to _manually_ elect to | supercharge the battery faster, imo. it shouldn 't be an | automatic "the charger supports it, imma nuke the | battery", that just sounds like vendors speeding up the | pace of planned obsolescence. | | people always complain about this with wireless, that the | heat from a 5W wireless charger is somehow damaging the | battery and causing e-waste as a result, and yet you've | got vendors who are bragging about how they're zapping a | phone battery with a 140W charger to get a third of a | charge in 5 minutes or whatever, that's _terrible_ as a | general practice. | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | _> those sorts of fast-charge speeds are incredibly bad | for the battery regardless of whether the device will let | it do it_ | | Source, your ass? That myth has been debunked. Check out | Marquez Brownlee and other media tests. | | Modern phone charging tech and battery chemistry allow | for fast charging without reduction in battery life. | samatman wrote: | Specifically, process improvements means that modern | batteries aren't prone to dendrite formation under high | rates of charge. Good thing too, because electric cars | wouldn't be practical otherwise. | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | _> You've missed the problematic point of where we are | now. _ | | I don't think I missed anything on the phone charging | part, I think you're looking at other issues. | | _> If I had a USB port, and a cable that fit, it would | charge my phone effectively. Somewhere in the transition | to USB-C ,we lost that._ | | I don't know what you think we lost, but every type-C | plug I could find in any household or office, always | managed to charge my Android phone, just like micro-B | before that. | maccard wrote: | > I don't know what you think we lost, but every type-C | plug I could find in any household or office, always | managed to charge my Android phone, just like micro-B | before that. | | if I show you a photo of two USB chargers, can you tell | me which one will provide 5w to my phone and which will | provide 15w? | | Why do the two ports on my 45w USB adapter provide | different wattages with no visible difference to them? | | Why does my macbook have the same ports as my phone and | iPad but not charge from them when using the almost | identical charger to the one I'm supposed to use with it? | | Why does my PS5 controller only charge to 2 out of 3 bars | when using any/all of the adapters above? | | > I think you're looking at other issues. | | There are enough issues with where we've gotten to that | didn't exist 5 years ago for me to be confident in saying | we're going in the wrong direction. We've standardised | _cables_, but the important part is the protocols, not | the cable. I _want_ different cables for different | protocols . | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | _> if I show you a photo of two USB chargers, can you | tell me which one will provide 5w to my phone and which | will provide 15w_ | | Why? Did you also care about that with micro-B on | Android? Or when using different wattage lightning | chargers from Apple? | | It's up to you to read the wattage on them an decide | which one you want to use. Mobile tech has gotten more | powerful and so have the chargers. | | It's your responsibility to keep track of the chargers in | your household, but the great part is, even if you don't | and mix them up, they'll both charge your phone either | way, just ar different speeds, and most likely any other | low power type-C gadget in your household like your | earbuds. You can't expect us to go back to having | different plugs for different wattages just because you | can't keep track of the different chargers you own. | Devices and chargers are smart and they'll negociate the | quickest and safest charging wattage regardless. | | Since you're being obviously obtuse just to be snarky, | I'll stop answering your questions as i think i provided | enough arguments so far. | masklinn wrote: | > If I had a USB port, and a cable that fit, it would | charge my phone effectively. Somewhere in the transition | to USB-C ,we lost that. | | Nonsense. Your phone is not trying to pull 50W, any | correctly implemented type C cable will do. | | The complexity of Type C is for things you were not able | to do at all: high-power applications (>40W) and / or | high data rates over a single cable. | | I've a single cable which charges my laptops, connects | all the devices plugged into the display, and carries | video to two different displays. | | That does require a cable with somewhat high specs, and | it's unfortunate that labelling isn't the clearest and | unsuitable cables are difficult to diagnose, but before | this was only an option via bespoke proprietary docks. | Now it's just a standard cable. | vel0city wrote: | I regularly charge my headphones off my laptop's 90W | USB-C adapter. If your device overheats while charging | it's not the fault of the charger it's a fault of the | device. Don't buy crappy devices that will immolate | themselves. | maccard wrote: | > Don't buy crappy devices that will immolate themselves. | | It's the consumers fault that manufacturers don't follow | the spec. It's my fault that Sony PS5 controllers only | charge 2/3 of the way when not using the console as a | power source, or the nintendo switch doesn't conform to | the spec despite using the same adapters, or that my | samsung buds aren't charging when I use an anker cable. | cm2187 wrote: | And those humongous SCSI ports... | https://anydifferencebetween.com/wp- | content/uploads/2016/08/... | mrexroad wrote: | And you remembered to terminate the SCSI on your scanner | after you unhooked the printer, right? | KronisLV wrote: | > You're phone is running out of battery while you're at | the bar/on vacation? Then good luck finding someone with | the same Motorola charger. | | Curiously, many Nokia phones in the same generation seemed | to use the same charger form factor, at least when I last | checked. | | Contrast this to me recently finding myself with an Android | phone that has USB Type C and only a Nintendo Switch | charger. I mean, it looks like it fits and both of them are | the same form factor, right? So technically it should | charge the phone, too. Except that it didn't (personal | experience) and some online claimed that certain phone and | charger combinations might cause them to (temporarily) stop | working. | | Ergo, instead of seeing that a Motorola charger won't work | for my Nokia device, I was left wondering about whether | it's even safe to share the charger given that the | connectors _do fit_. Furthermore, I 've seen cases where a | USB cable actually doesn't carry data and can only be used | for charging, with no clear/apparent indications of this, | neither when buying it or when looking at it. | | The world would be much simpler if one plug had one spec, | with no deviations from it being permissible. If it fits, | it should work. | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | _> If it fits, it should work._ | | Except it does work, for charging at least. | | Everywhere I could find a type-C plug, it always managed | to charge my phone regardless which charger brand or dock | was at the other end. I can go to any bar, airport or | hotel on any continent and I know I'll find a type-C plug | somewhere VS in the past when your Cingular phone had a | connector which wasn't available in Europe because those | phones weren't sold there. That's a real life saver which | many people seem to ignore just because their Nintendo | widget decided to not follow the spec. | | _> Contrast this to me recently finding myself with an | Android phone that has USB Type C and only a Nintendo | Switch charger_ | | Nintendo violated the spec on the Switch either through | malice, wanting to lock users into their own chargers, or | through engineering incompetence by not being able to | follow a spec which every other electronics brand could. | Nintendo is also known to be extremely anti-consumer. So | blame Nintendo not type-C. | jcelerier wrote: | > Everywhere I could find a type-C plug, it always | managed to charge my phone regardless which charger brand | or dock was at the other end. | | Here it definitely doesn't. I have at least 4/5 cables / | usb-c ports combos in my home which aren't able to | perform this apparently basic feature ; the phone's | charging icon will activate but it will still loose | battery | innocenat wrote: | That just mean the charger is underpowered. | rblatz wrote: | Yeah, that's the problem you can't tell if something will | work unless you try. And then you still have to worry | about if it's the cable or the charger. This is a huge | step backwards. | paulmd wrote: | hot take but I solve this by not buying any usb-c cable | that isn't 100W compatible lol. I have some "full spec" | cables that do video, and many more that are just charge- | only/usb 2.0, but everything is 100W capable. Charge | cables get marked with some nail polish on the connector | body when I take them out of the package. | | The "fasgear" brand on amazon have worked well for me and | they actually have 3-meter cables that do full 100w | charging, right angle connectors for laptops/etc, and | they have a usb 4-compatible lineup (that I have not | tried). A 2m charge cable is $7 a pop and 3m is $11 (they | run coupons on both frequently that take it down another | 10% or so) but whatever, that's just kinda what it costs | to not have to worry about it. | | cables that come with things go into a baggie in The Bin | Of Solitude where they shall remain untouched until my | descendents clean them out after I pass. "But what if I | really really need a low-spec charge cable at some | hypothetical point in the future!?!? you never know when | it'll be 2012 again, buddy." | | gonna suck when 140W or whatever comes out and my cables | won't do it but... I guess they'll still work at 100W. | Hopefully. I guess it's not guaranteed either, thanks | USB-IF. | pooper wrote: | > Here it definitely doesn't. I have at least 4/5 cables | / usb-c ports combos in my home which aren't able to | perform this apparently basic feature ; the phone's | charging icon will activate but it will still loose | battery | | Just out of curiosity, will the device charge if you | | 1. Let the device drain mostly if not fully | | 2. Start charging | | 3. Turn off the device | | 4. Continue charging with the device continued in a | turned off state | | 5. ... wait (this might take a day or a week) | | 6. Check if the battery managed to fully charge | | That is, I am wondering if there is some shenanigan in | that the device somehow refuses to be slow charged. I | have never heard of it but if that is happening, I would | like to learn more. | innocenat wrote: | > Except it does work, for charging at least. | | Most phone can charge off of the base 5V/3A profile, so | it works for phone. | | But many bigger devices don't. I think most laptop only | charge off of 20V mode, so it won't work if the charger | can only do 5V or 9V. Some tablet also only do 9V, | refusing to charge on 5V. | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | I was talking about phones benefiting from type-C | standardization the most, as you'll always find a charger | nearby. Moving to more power hungry devices like laptops | is moving the goalposts. Of course they won't charge off | basic 15W phone chargers when CPUs alone draw that much. | | But phones and tablets will gladly charge off the more | powerful laptop type-C chargers. So there's another | benefit: the type-C charger of your most power hungry | gadget will charge all your other devices. | paulmd wrote: | > But phones and tablets will gladly charge off the more | powerful laptop type-C chargers. So there's another | benefit: the type-C charger of your most power hungry | gadget will charge all your other devices. | | maybe in an ideal world, but this is absolutely not | guaranteed at all. Some chargers only support the | profiles they need and don't support the lower-voltage | standards in between. Even apple does this sometimes, in | fact. | | https://9to5mac.com/2021/01/04/making-sense-of-the- | oddities-... | | https://daringfireball.net/2020/12/charger_nerdery | | now of course the usb-c crowd is probably going "well | apple needs to get its shit together!" but that's not an | uncommon thing at all. Chargers are still designed for | the specific device and don't necessarily support | intermediate standards, just like motherboard ports end | up being designed for specific use-cases and don't | necessarily support the thing you're trying to do with | them. Maybe that should have been a requirement, but it | isn't, because USB-IF is shit and doesn't care about the | consumer. | | _fully_ implementing the usb-c standard, to all its | extremes and nuances, is expensive as fuck, and this is a | cost-driven market so you can bet your bottom dollar | someone is going to choose to swiss-cheese the standard | and their charger will be $2 cheaper so that 'll be the | one you buy. Or else you're paying more for Anker and | Apple stuff (whoops, maybe not apple for chargers, but | their cables are still the best!). | | and yes, it _should_ always work at the lowest-common- | denominator standard, and there _should_ be a profile for | the base USB 5v 1A if nothing else but... not all devices | do. Laptops often don 't support lowest-common- | denominator charging, for example. | | Just like Apple. Just like Switch. etc etc. At some point | it stops being a problem with specific vendors and starts | being just a badly designed standard. USB-C is trying to | have its cake and eat it too - they want to be in devices | for which $1 for a port or a controller chip is a big | expense, but also scale to 40V/100W charging and 80gbps | full-duplex data (with a 40gbps video channel and a | 40gbps pcie link) and have everything "just work", and | that's not really physically possible to implement in | devices where every nickel counts. | | Maybe there should have been some defined "mobile" and | "laptop/desktop" profiles, that overlapped in some | defined ways, so this wouldn't have been a problem. Your | mobile standard can be cost-optimized, your laptop | standard can be full-featured, both of them have some | lowest-common-denomiantor requirements. Laptop 2.0 always | supports everything Laptop 1.0 did, and Phone 3.0 always | supports everything Phone 2.0 and 1.0 did. | | But that's how USB-IF rolls, no need for nuance or | delineation, just throw everything in one standard and | let customers flounder. They do it on purpose, and people | still defend them and love the product regardless, it's | as mindless as people constantly (including here, ctrl-f | any apple thread and search 'mindless' or 'fanboy') | accuse apple fandoms of being. It's a bad standard and | it's really just that simple, they could and should have | done better and should not retain a government monopoly | going forward, or else this will only continue to get | more convoluted and complicated. Like we _literally just_ | got USB 4 2.0 and all, the leopard isn 't changing its | spots at this point. | | But like, this was an eminently foreseeable outcome of | the "one cable for everything" pipe dream people are | pushing. Either cables/devices are expensive | (thunderbolt), or each device supports some subset of the | standard and end up with a confusing mess. But the "one | cable for everything" fandom is insatiable. | | Just one more profile bro. It's gonna fix everything, I | swear. One more standard and two more extensions. It's | gonna support PCIe 5.0 and DisplayPort 2.1 and it'll | charge your weedwhacker, just one more profile bro, | please bro, I need this. | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | _> Some chargers only support the profiles they need and | don't support the lower-voltage standards in between_ | | Yeah we don't live in an ideal world. But this has been a | low enough encounter for me (actually never so far) to | not overshadow the masive advantages type-C | standardization has brought into my life. The fact that | my phone and gadgets can all charge from the same plug | that's now obliquus everywhere in the world is a godsend | that people love to overlook every time they want to shit | on the type-C standard because Nintendo screwed up. | | _> But that's how USB-IF rolls, no need for nuance or | delineation, just throw everything in one standard and | let customers flounder. _ | | Do you have a better solution? Were the older days of | millions of constantly changing cables and ports from | every phone and gadget manufacturer better? I feel not. | And what we have today, while far from perfects is miles | better that the past. | | Even with standard connectors like the 3.5mm jack there | were tons of variations, some had a mic input, some had | input for buttons, some could even charge through them, | etc. and not every cable could do basic audio reliably if | it was cheap/poorly manufactured. Things weren't perfect | back then either. | | _> Just one more profile bro. It's gonna fix everything, | I swear. One more standard and two more extensions. It's | gonna support PCIe 5.0 and DisplayPort 2.1 and it'll | charge your weedwhacker, just one more profile bro, | please bro, I need this._ | | Extra profiles are not there to fix things, they're there | to extend the functionality of the type-C connector, | which is what the end-game is. Yeah, extra profiles won't | work if you don't have the right cable, which could be | confusing for the consumer, but let's not halt | technological progress in the right direction by | constantly making perfect the enemy of good. | | I love, and I think everyone else will agree, that now we | have a single cable coming into the laptop instead of a | huge octopus spaghetti monster from every port that needs | to be plugged and unplugged individually for every | peripheral every time you want to leave your desk. I'm | sure there will be people who prefer the octopus | spaghetti monster, but I don't want to go back to those | days, so the disadvantages of the move to type-C are | massively overshadowed by the advantages. | paulmd wrote: | > Do you have a better solution? | | Yes, I literally said it in my post: instead of a | "profile" being "20V@2A" it should be "laptop 2.0" and | laptop 2.0 includes a _mandatory_ selection of power | /data/video capabilities, with 3.0 being a strict | superset of 2.0 capabilities. You can always add _more_ | capabilities, if you have 3.0 data but only 2.0 charging, | that 's fine, but, you have to advertise that as 2.0. | | Desktop/laptop ports are _required_ to carry video and | pcie, mobile standards don 't have to... or maybe higher | versions of the standard should start requiring it. | | If that means motherboard makers have to start | advertising that their ports only support the "mobile" | connectivity levels because they didn't want to put | video/pcie on the port... tough, that's information the | consumers need to know. | | > Even with standard connectors like the 3.5mm jack there | were tons of variations, some had a mic input, some had | input for buttons, some could even charge through them, | etc. and not every cable could do basic audio reliably if | it was cheap/poorly manufactured. Things weren't perfect | back then either. | | 3.5mm headset (headphone+mic) connectors were the closest | thing I've ever seen to a bulletproof connector apart | from VERY niche things like low-impedence headphones that | required an amp. Not sure that's a good example either. I | guess there's line level, but, go to best buy and pick a | random device (any device) with a headphone port and a | random pair of headphones and they work 100% of the time, | guaranteed, I'll bet you money on this right now at my | local best buy. | | Ethernet? Displayport? Both of those pretty much | negotiate seamlessly down to whatever capability they | both support. | | You can't make ethernet "optional" stuff, because | ethernet does exactly one thing and it either works or it | doesn't. My home network just works - go to best buy and | pick a random switch and a random ethernet device and it | works 100% of the time, and I'll bet you money on that | too. Even things like crossover ports are dead now, the | only real thing that matters even to nerds is stuff like | MTU size that _also_ transparently work unless you | actively fuck with the settings. | | It's really _only_ USB-C that has turned into a | trainwreck and it 's specifically because USB-IF doesn't | define meaningful profiles and just makes everything an | optional feature, and since "it can do everything" that | means most things don't do anything more than the bare | minimum. | | > Extra profiles are not there to fix things, they're | there to extend the functionality of the type-C | connector, which is what the end-game is. | | Well, if you use profiles in that manner, don't be | surprised when people are confused by your connector that | has 57 different profiles and nothing supports anything. | | Again: why can't a profile be "laptop 2.0" and my laptop | supports that? Why do I have to know that my laptop needs | the 40V/2.5A profile to charge and that I need X charger | and Y cable? | | That's purely down to USB-IF mismanagement and | corruption. They _should not_ have a government monopoly, | they 're working for the vendors, not for you. | dmitriid wrote: | That's what Intel did with Thunderbolt (4?) | specification: you either support all of things listed | there, or you can't call yourself Thunderbolt-compatible. | paulmd wrote: | Yup. And I think that's the dichotomy: "supports | everything on everything" or "cable doesn't cost $60 and | goes farther than 2 meters", take your pick. | | Expense was pretty much a foregone conclusion at the | start of the thunderbolt "one cable for everything" | experiment, and now people want to do that with usb in | general. Sure, that'll be great, but it's going to be | expensive, including in places that don't need those | capabilities. If you allow deviations from the standard, | then you are back to things being incompatible with | various devices/cables/chargers. They allowed that with | power profiles (in particular) and video capabilities and | now it's a mess. | | Framing profiles in terms of device use-cases is my | attempt at turning that soup back into something | comprehensible for average consumers, while keeping the | benefit. People approach this as "I want to plug my phone | into the charger and have it just work", "I want to plug | my dock into my laptop and do everything through one | cable", etc, and those are actually _use-cases_ and not | _feature profiles_ , they don't really care that the | laptop needs 40V 2.5A or 25V 3A, they just want it to | work. But of course a $10 vape pen (or phone) doesn't | need 40V 2.5A charging. So you have a "phone profile" and | a "laptop profile" and iterate those things as | groups/featuresets and not as a bunch of profiles thrown | into one enormous standard. | | You can retain most of the "universal standard" juice | without squeezing too hard on the "$60 cable" expense | side of things. You could have one cable for laptop docks | and one cable for phone charging and have a lot of | overlap between, but still not have to use a $60 cable to | charge your phone just because that's what a laptop | needs, and yet not have a confusing free-for-all of "this | charger doesn't do that". | | I'm just a rando though so it's not like I have any say. | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | _> go to best buy and pick a random device (any device) | with a headphone port and a random pair of headphones and | they work 100% of the time, guaranteed, I 'll bet you | money on this right now at my local best buy._ | | Sure, maybe the audio will work, maybe it will have | static cause they're cheap since the manufacturer cut | corners to save $.01. But does the mic on them work with | my device? Or the buttons on them, will they work | controlling the volume? IIRC, wired 3.5mm headphones had | separate versions for iPhone and Android as the buttons | on them worked different on each platform. So making | 3.5mm an example of successful standardization across all | platforms is laughable IMHO. | | _> it should be "laptop 2.0" and laptop 2.0 includes a | mandatory selection of power/data/video capabilities, | with 3.0 being a strict superset of 2.0 capabilities._ | | What if for me as a consumer, or me as a manufacturer, | don't need the full Laptop 3.0 capabilities in my ideal | product, and my product just needs Laptop 2.0 | capabilities with only a couple of Laptop 3.0 | functionality to make me happy? Why make a needlessly | more expensive product with features the target customers | don't need, by having such coarse and inflexible | standardization with little room for movement? | | It might not matter for a $2k Macbook where you could | throw the kitchen sink in there, but for a $200 phone or | a $500 laptop, it does. both in terms of cost and size. | | Yeah, the type-C flexibility is both a blessing and a | curse. | paulmd wrote: | > What if for me as a consumer, or me as a manufacturer, | don't need the full Laptop 3.0 capabilities in my ideal | product, and my product just needs Laptop 2.0 | capabilities with only a couple of Laptop 3.0 | functionality to make me happy? | | I think the confusion, expense, and e-waste from having | 57 different profiles is worse than a hypothetical about | some new class of device that demands drastically | different capability sets from the existing ones. The | answer is... USB-IF should define Laptop 2.0 such that | that doesn't happen, and if there is some drastically new | class of device that merits a new profile, we make VR | Headset 1.0 or whatever. If there's some new USB 5.0 | standard that everyone is going to want... then we | release a new Laptop 3.0 standard with that included. | | and if you are making a netbook or something that doesn't | need super-powered 100W charging then... market it as | Laptop 1.0? what exactly is the problem? | | It's a hypothetical edge case that is completely and | trivially solvable if it ever comes up, and doesn't merit | throwing away the whole USB-C standardization idea. | | > Why make a needlessly more expensive product with | features the target customers don't need, by having such | coarse and inflexible standardization with little room | for movement? | | because that's the whole point of USB-C, to eliminate | redundant cables and move towards standardized | devices/chargers, and the entire point is lost if you | allow vendors to play silly buggers with current/voltage | profiles. | | Like, basically what you're saying here is you don't like | the idea of USB-C at all and want a more granular set of | capabilities. That would be great! Just have one standard | that covers audio, and another one or two that cover | video? We could hypothetically give them all different | cables, so no device has to use any cable that's any more | expensive than it _must_ be, and give them all different | connectors so there 's no consumer confusion about what | plugs into what, right? Sounds good to me. | | The harm from "device profiles" is... manufacturers would | have to market that device as "Laptop 2.0" or "Laptop 2.0 | With 40gbps Data" or whatever the extension ends up | being. Laptop 2.5, if you will. Having to be more | specific in advertising is much much better than allowing | massive consumer confusion and e-waste due to | incompatible chargers/cables/etc. | | Even if there end up being a lot of "Laptop 2.5" devices, | there is a huge value-add from having that "Laptop 2.0" | standard - we eliminate an entire class of "my charger | works with 40V 1A but not 25V 3A" problems, because the | laptop needs to support _at least_ laptop 2.0 to be | advertised as laptop 2.0, it 's a guarantee that it works | _at least that far_. Same for chargers /cables/etc - it's | a fixed target for them to work against, whereas right | now with 57 different profiles it's a free-for-all. | | The problem of course being - USB-IF will never do _any_ | of this of their own volition. They work for the OEMs, | not for you. | | > What if for me as a consumer, or me as a manufacturer, | don't need the full Laptop 3.0 capabilities in my ideal | product, and my product just needs Laptop 2.0 | capabilities with only a couple of Laptop 3.0 | functionality to make me happy? Why make a needlessly | more expensive product with features the target customers | don't need, by having such coarse and inflexible | standardization with little room for movement? | | > It might not matter for a $2k Macbook where you could | throw the kitchen sink in there, but for a $200 phone or | a $500 laptop, it does. both in terms of cost and size. | | You seem to be trying to have it both ways here: isn't | this _precisely_ the concern leveled against having | multiple different connectors? The counterargument is | that having one cable /charger for everything eliminates | a huge amount of waste and redundancy, even if it's | significantly more expensive to implement fully. Each | cable may be more expensive - but you don't need 5 | different cables, because you plug into your dock with | one cable and you get video/pcie/data. | | Having Desktop/Laptop and Phone profiles is the same | USB-C concept taken further: instead of allowing | manufacturers to still do inane shit with voltage/current | profiles and video/pcie capabilities that render various | cables/devices incompatible despite physically plugging, | we say "if you want to advertise a 'laptop' standard | connector, _it must_ support at least this set of | capabilities ". And we pick some reasonable sets of | capabilities, whatever those end up being. If you want to | go further, fine, if you need a new class of profile | defined, fine, but most devices will fit into those bins | and we will define new bins if necessary. | | If you want to reduce cost for devices that don't need | the full set of capabilities on every single port, then | stop trying to shoehorn USB-C into everything and let me | have a physical displayport and a 3.5mm headset. Done. If | you're going to force this USB-C shit on me, it needs to | be consumer-friendly enough that you don't need a PHD to | determine whether your laptop charger will work right | with your tablet. | | Nobody wants to go back to every phone having a different | connector, but, that's not really going to happen at this | point. | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | _> e-waste from having 57 different profiles_ | | How does that generate huge amounts of e-waste? | | You're drawing a huge amount of strawmen by cherry- | picking niche scenarios of "wrong cable to wrong product" | incompatibilities and promoting that as being the norm | for everyone using usb-C everywhere, as an argument of | why usb-C sucks. Sure, there are cases where this may | happen and it sucks, but realistically, that's not been | the case for me so far since 2016 when I made the switch | and you're ignoring the massive amount of compatibility | that already exists and also works just fine for everyone | else, including in our office where we have a mix of Dell | and Lenovo laptops and docks plus 3 brands of android | phones. | | You're also ignoring the huge amount of e-waste prevented | by having a single charring conector for all phones for | the last few years allowing you to reuse older chargers | on new phones across different brands and even different | devices, albite at lower speeds sometimes, depending on | fast-charging standard used. But still, in an emergency, | I'd rather be able to charge my dying phone slower using | the bartender's charger than not being able to do that at | all because he's phone has one of the other 12 charging | connectors we used to have. This standardization has been | a huge win for consumers and the environment despite the | issues from having 57 profiles which are mostly in the | PC/laptop space. | | Yeah it's far from perfect today, and it could be better, | and hopefully things will improve with time, but | standardization will always be a long and hard battle | when you have so many parties with different interests | and ideas, and still, compared to what we had in the | past, I'd rather take this route instead of scraping all | this progress by letting perfect be the enemy of good. | 2muchcoffeeman wrote: | > _What if for me as a consumer, or me as a manufacturer, | don 't need the full Laptop 3.0 capabilities in my ideal | product, and my product just needs Laptop 2.0 | capabilities with only a couple of Laptop 3.0 | functionality to make me happy?_ | | Too bad you get it anyway? I don't see why this is an | issue. I already cannot buy a laptop that has exactly | what I need. I'm sure that many people are in the same | boat. You already make compromises and spend money on | things you don't want to get things that are a priority. | And we spend far more money doing so already than the | cost of a USBC controller. | | At least this way I know exactly what I'm getting. | chiefalchemist wrote: | > Were the older days of millions of constantly changing | cables and ports from every phone and gadget manufacturer | better? I feel not. And what we have today, while far | from perfects is miles better that the past. | | Better in some ways? Yes. Not better in other ways? Also | yes. | | Where someone stands on the spectrum depends on how you | feel about uncertainty. That is, previously you were | certain about what did work (i.e., the cord + charger | that came with your phone) vs what did not. | | Now, there's more compatibility yet at the same time | we've taken on uncertainty. | | I generally feel we're better off. But there are also | enough times where I think, "Sure, maybe jetpacks was too | much to expect two decades into the 21st Century, but | connector + cable being a no-brainer isn't. FFS why do I | have to think so much about something that should be so | simple?" | | Yeah, it's not binary. | goosedragons wrote: | Pretty sure when the Switch launched it's 15V 2.6A spec | wasn't part of the PD standard. Not really any different | from the myriad of phones out there with their own custom | fast charging protocol like OnePlus. Mainly where they | went out of spec was the dock side to make connecting | that easier. The Switch charges fine with other chargers, | running the dock is a bit trickier because of the 15V | 2.6A requirement but some like the newer MacBook ones | will do it. | | That said I have several cheap devices that refuse to be | charged/powered by a PD charger like an Apple charger. | For instance the Neo Geo Mini, only likes basic 5V 1A | chargers for some reason (I guess looking at the MB | charger it doesn't support 5V 1A). If the charger doesn't | support what the device wants it won't work. My phone | happily will charge with what the Switch charger puts | out. | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | _> Pretty sure when the Switch launched it's 15V 2.6A | spec wasn't part of the PD standard. Not really any | different from the myriad of phones out there with their | own custom fast charging protocol like OnePlus._ | | You missed my point entirely. The speed of the charging | is not the issue here. It shouldn't matter what PD or | fast charging protocol Nintendo or OnePlus would use, | they should all be backwards compatible to legacy slow- | charging and trickle charge from any type-C charger ever | made, which is a lifesaver in an emergency and is why the | type-C connector is a godsend. | | Nintendo fucked up the pin-out on the connector making it | completely non-standard and incompatible to any other | type-C charger released. The speed of their charging | protocol was not the issue. | boltzmann-brain wrote: | Charging is one thing, but getting display out or | Ethernet is at another level. After reading the link, I | am still none the wiser on a situation I experienced | recently. I have a Moto G6 phone. I bought a USB C dock | for it, a "Kapok 11-in-1-USB-C Laptop Dockingstation Dual | HDMI Hub" on Amazon. It would charge, but the video out | didn't work, and the Ethernet didn't work either. Both | did work for my Steam Deck, though. How come? I | understand some USB C hubs work for Android phones, some | don't, and I don't know how that works. How does one find | a dock that will work with Android? That specific dock | _does_ mention compatibility with a bunch of Android | devices; but not specifically Moto. But I know that the | Moto G6 does support external display outputs and | Ethernet connectivity - I just haven 't found a device | which allows those, yet. | int_19h wrote: | Moto G6 simply doesn't support video output. That's not a | USB-C issue. | msbarnett wrote: | That's only "not a USB-C issue" if you fail to understand | the central complaint about USB-C - that ports that | support, say, video output (or input) are visually | identical to ports that do not, and cables that can carry | video are indistinguishable from those which only support | USB 2, or those which only support charging at 15 W, or | those that support charging at 100 W or or or. Thus the | central question: is his phone failing to output video a | failing of the phone? The dock? The cabling involved? | Some combination of the above? | | Everything looking the same with zero indication of what | does what is _the_ USB-C issue. The answer here might be | "your phone doesn't have that capability", but the fact | that you have to dive into the data sheets of everything | involved including all of the cabling just to figure out | what the hell the outcome is _supposed_ to be versus the | observed outcome is all completely absurd. | taxicabjesus wrote: | My brother recently moved, and was taking his USB-C | powered cable boxes back to the cable company. I thought | the cable company wouldn't care if the power adapters | were missing. | | The cable boxes' USB-C power supplies do not charge my | Sony USB-C camera. They're on my stack of things I | intended to look into one day, but haven't gotten around | to it yet. | [deleted] | goosedragons wrote: | The pinout is fine. You can charge a Switch with random | adapters fine, powering docked mode is trickier because | older PD adapters don't support it but newer ones do. The | Switch adapter will happily charge my phone, tablet, | eReader, etc and I have used it as my only charger on | trips where I don't bring a laptop. Perhaps the problem | here is OnePlus and whatever THEY do to get their fast | charging spec? | | Nintendo did more non-standard stuff with the dock port | dimensions. Not so much pinouts. 3rd party docks fried | Switches because of shit power management sending more | voltage than the Switch needed. | | EDIT: The problem seems to actually be that the Switch | charger only supports 5V 1.5A whereas some phones require | 2 or 3A and are not compatible. | gumby wrote: | No downside I hadn't expected is that because of all the | extreme back compatibility you could have a TB4 drive and | TB4 host but accidentally use a cable that only supports | USB 1/2. It would work, just at very low speed, and an | unsophisticated user would simply suffer, not knowing how | to diagnose the problem. | gumby wrote: | "No downside" should be "A downside..." | gumby wrote: | In this case Nintendo violated the spec in their | implementation. This is an exceptional case. | ghusbands wrote: | It's really not. I've got a Dell USB-C charger that | continually drops out when I try to charge a Lenovo | laptop with it, and a USB-C hub with power passthrough | that won't at all charge two laptops out of three with | USB-C. My laptop's charger causes my phone to overheat. | When I plug my laptop in to my phone's rapid-charger, it | sometimes trickle-charges and sometimes does nothing. | | Basically, I have to carefully choose chargers for | devices and can't just use any of the USB-C chargers | available. Throughout this thread, there's people | pointing out similar cases. | tyrfing wrote: | > My laptop's charger causes my phone to overheat | | If it actually overheats and doesn't just get very warm, | that's a fire hazard and you are using dangerously faulty | equipment. | cesarb wrote: | > My laptop's charger causes my phone to overheat. | | The charger which came with your phone probably doesn't | output enough power to charge your phone at its maximum | speed, while your laptop's charger has more than enough | power for that. But what decides at which speeds to | charge is actually your phone's built-in charger (what we | are calling a "charger" is actually a power supply, the | true charging circuit is always within the phone itself). | So if your phone is overheating, either it's just hotter | than you expected but still within its design parameters, | or your phone charging circuit was badly designed. | | > When I plug my laptop in to my phone's rapid-charger, | it sometimes trickle-charges and sometimes does nothing. | | Even funnier than that: when I plug my phone into my | laptop using a USB-C to USB-C cable (because the phone's | battery is low and the power is out), the _phone_ tries | to charge the _laptop_ ; I have to go to the USB control | in the phone's notification area and tell it to do the | opposite. | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | _> I've got a Dell USB-C charger that continually drops | out when I try to charge a Lenovo laptop with it_ | | Interesting, we have various Dell and Lenovo type-C and | thunderbolt docks at work and they can each cross charge | the Lenovo and the Dell laptops we have. | | Maybe your charger is faulty. | KronisLV wrote: | > This is an exceptional case. | | Then it seems to me like they should have chosen a | different connector, maybe even be encouraged by some | entity to do so, as to not cause undue confusion or | frustration. | gumby wrote: | Well yes they should have, and were publicly shamed for | it. | | Or they should have stuck to the spec. | jrockway wrote: | Charging is one aspect. People are bricking their devices | today because everyone loves the center-positive barrel | connector. It's used for everything from 3.3V to 48V (and | maybe even more than that). Plug your 5V device into a 12V | supply, rest in peace, device. The shared form factor is | nice, though, when you do carefully compare the voltage | markings. I have a drawer of random 12V power supplies, and | I have no idea if any of my devices are actually using the | 12V power supply they came with, and it all works. | | Meanwhile, the varying form factor for computer parts has | never really been a problem. Back in the day, nobody ever | tried to connect their VGA monitor to their PS/2 mouse | port. But now, thanks to USB-C, many people try that, only | to have it fail. They might have to get a new computer or | monitor to salvage even one of them, but in the past, it | was pretty easy to get something to work. (Still not | perfect, of course. You still had to have a graphics card | that could drive the monitor at the timings you desired, | and sometimes the optimal timings for the monitor weren't | achievable with your particular video output. This problem, | of course, still affects HDMI, DVI, DisplayPort, and | Thunderbolt.) Meanwhile, the ports that were the same | caused a lot of confusion. How come you couldn't connect | your PS/2 keyboard to the mouse port? | | All in all, I think Type C is kryptonite for today's | economy. Consumers only look at one spec when purchasing | peripherals -- the price. To make the lowest price USB type | C cable, you simply remove any copper from it that isn't | related to charging a phone. That means you end up with | people that want to use displayport alt mode, or data | transfer, and can't, and have no ability whatsoever to fix | the problem themselves. | | None of this precludes a standard that lets you charge your | phone, but it's complicated when you want to use one port | to charge your phone, your laptop, your desktop, your | monitor, share data, stream video, etc. and USB didn't get | this one right. Of course, the industry did even worse | without a standard, but it's still terrible. | torginus wrote: | If you're a techie looking to understand everything, USB-C is a | confusing mess - however if you're just a regular person buying | a random USB-C dock at the computer store, it's very likely the | model you're going to get will support charging, display out | and fast enough port speeds that using an external drive won't | be painful. | paulmd wrote: | > if you're just a regular person buying a random USB-C dock | at the computer store, it's very likely the model you're | going to get will support charging, display out and fast | enough port speeds that using an external drive won't be | painful. | | sure, but, when they plug it into their computer it's not | going to work because almost no motherboards support video or | pcie over their type-c connectors. the dock will do it, that | doesn't mean the rest of the system will. | | also, while the cable that comes in the box will work... what | if you need a longer one? if they buy a random usb-c cable | off the shelf, will it work with video? survey says probably | not... especially if they're a typical consumer and buy the | cheapest one. | 8ytecoder wrote: | It's like using a low-bandwidth hdmi cable on a 4K tv. People | may not notice that their device isn't charging well but as | long as it's charging they may not complain. Doesn't mean the | situation is anywhere close to ideal. | spockz wrote: | I get this with a "cheap" USB c cable from Action. On good | days it will train in at 60W charge. More often just at | 30W. No problem for my 13" M1 laptop you never notice | unless trying to rapid charge or looking at stats. But I | did notice it with my old intel mbp it couldn't stay | charged. | umanwizard wrote: | Not if you want to connect two 4K monitors at 60Hz, which is | not an unusual thing to want to do. (It required that your | dock, cables and machine support Thunderbolt 4). | jenia2022 wrote: | Why do you only use the cable that came with it? What's the | problem with charging a device over USB-C? | marzell wrote: | I feel like now, even though there may be varying levels of | compatibility/capability, at least more devices physically plug | into the same cables with at least basic functionality. IMO | it's better than having different physical ports that are | completely incompatible. | | Additionally, I've never had any problems with USB-C cables | physically failing without extensive abuse. I cannot say the | same for on-brand Apple charging cables. | paulmd wrote: | > While I complain, I would also like to mention the USB | forum's insane naming strategy and non-obvious labeling system. | | battered USB-C users: "You don't know him like I do, he really | loves me and he says he's gonna release USB 4 and leave all | this confusion behind us forever!" | | USB-IF: "haha but what if I released usb 4 2.0? ... ... ..." | | Like c'mon nobody can deny that they're absolutely doing this | shit on purpose, creating confusing standards makes it easier | for the forum members to market older crap and pretend it | supports the latest thing without incurring the cost of | actually supporting it. | | it's _extremely extremely_ concerning that this is the | standards body that the EU has given a government monopoly to | develop connectors for our devices. This forum does not have | consumer interests at heart, at all, they are looking out for | their members, not for you. And like an abusive partner, they | aren 't gonna suddenly wake up one day and change everything... | they _exist as an organization_ so that Asus can make 1% more | profit on a laptop by using an older usb controller, not to | produce good standards that consumers can understand. | | Unlike HDMI, there's just no alternative right now. We | _desperately_ need "VESA for data connections" and to get the | wheel away from the shitters at USB-IF. | eli wrote: | Something something malice and incompetence | b3morales wrote: | Sure but don't forget Gray's Law: _Any sufficiently | advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice_ | colordrops wrote: | Businesses never sacrifice user needs for the bottom line? | eli wrote: | Well meaning standards never have confusing names? | colejohnson66 wrote: | If they stopped at USB 3.1 Gen 1 and 2, it'd be | forgivable, but then doing USB 3.2 Gens 1, 2, 1x2, and | 2x2, then USB4 Gens 2x1, 2x2, 3x1, 3x2, and now USB4 | version 2 (what?), it's hard to give the benefit of the | doubt. | | <rant> | | Being able to market a USB 3.0 cable as USB4 despite only | reaching 5 Gb/s is nothing short of incompetence, and | almost certainly deceptive. There's _zero reason_ to | rename old speed capabilities when we still refer to USB | 480 Mb /s as... _2.0_. If every feature of USB4 is | optional besides 5 Gb /s, what's the purpose of being | able to call something "USB4 compatible" besides | marketing? | | It's the same reason HDMI 2.0 is now 2.1! Because almost | every feature that's new in 2.1 is optional. A few months | ago, the media went crazy about Apple listing their new | MacBook as supporting HDMI 2.0 when 2.1 had been out for | a while, but it turned out they were just being more | honest. | cesarvarela wrote: | My 3 rules: | | 1. buy everything thunderbolt 4 certified | | 2. connect monitors using tb -> dp cables | | 3. avoid Linux and Windows (vms are ok) | | Everything works as it should and using only one cable I'm | connecting my MacBook to 2 monitors, a webcam, a screen capture | card, a microphone, a stream deck, and it even charges the | battery. | | Break one of the rules and be ready for a world of pain. | zmmmmm wrote: | > I'm connecting my MacBook to 2 monitors | | Did you really find a solution where you plug in one cable and | you natively get two independent screens out of your MacBook? | To my great frustration I have found my M1 Pro can only extend | to one monitor, not two. Every solution out there either ends | up with "mirrored" displays (useless) or requires to virtualise | the link via DisplayLink which I really don't like. Apparently | it's a fundamental issue with limitations of Apple's | implementation. | artificialLimbs wrote: | M1 MPB 14", 2 external monitors: I would pay quite a bit of money | if Apple would make a dock that I could plug into and have my | apps move back into the position they were in (including correct | monitor) when I unplugged the cable. Bonus points if windows | would automatically arrange themselves back when I unplug and | work on laptop only, but this is probably a Mac OS thing more | than a dock thing, right? | | Currently it's just a crapshoot as to where my apps will be. Will | they be on the right monitor? Will the monitors have magically | juxtaposed? Will everything be only on the laptop screen? Who | knows!? This is a productivity destroyer for me, multiple times | per day. | | Yes, I wait until both screens have powered on. And then some | extra time... and it doesn't matter at all. | dmitriid wrote: | > if Apple would make a dock that I could plug into and have my | apps move back into the position they were in (including | correct monitor) when I unplugged the cable. | | Isn't that handled by software? That Apple hasn't been able to | provide for ages despite originally bosting to have the best | monitor support, and now releasing "the best" external display | with Studio Display? | | > Currently it's just a crapshoot as to where my apps will be. | Will they be on the right monitor? Will the monitors have | magically juxtaposed? Will everything be only on the laptop | screen? Who knows!? | | Yup. It's been a pain for me since forever. | ozzydave wrote: | This is the monitors fault though right? Because the | manufacturer flashes them with the exact same identifier, so | the laptop has no way to tell them apart. There was a blog post | about it here recently. | | https://notes.alinpanaitiu.com/Weird%20monitor%20bugs | jcynix wrote: | You might want to try out "window tidy" which allows to define | arrangements of windows: | | https://www.lightpillar.com/window-tidy.html | ChrisMarshallNY wrote: | This has been a big pain, for me. | | The only docks that have worked for me, have been the CalDigit TS | _X_ docks, which I have used for a long time. The TS4 is out of | stock on the CalDigit site, and I 'm never using Amazon again, | for anything over about $100. I'll get it, eventually. | | I have the latest 14-inch MBP (M1Max). | | The biggest issues that I encounter are: | | 1) External keyboard wake up/recognized. | | If I use a dock, the keyboard is often not recognized. I found | that I need to plug directly into the Mac. Otherwise, it | sometimes won't wake the computer, or the computer sometimes | "forgets" the keyboard. | | 2) Monitor Handling. | | I use a 49" LG Ultrawide (5120 X 1440). I used to have it split | into two monitors (3840 X 1440, 1680 X 1440), but now use it as a | single, ultrwawide, after Apple started natively supporting that | resolution. | | I found that many docks (even "Thunderbolt" ones) and adapters, | refused to allow me to select the ultrawide size. Also, the | monitor would often fail to be recognized, after the computer | wakes, and I would have to reach under, and unplug/replug, to get | it recognized. I have the monitor plugged directly into one of | the TB ports, with a TB-to-DP cable, and it works great. | | From what I understand, the new CalDigit should fix these issues. | rektide wrote: | The note in this article that for whatever reason Mac's dont | support the MST capabilities from DisplayPort 1.2 (january | 2013) is I think the primary reason folks hate USB-c. Because | the obvious great thing docks definitely absolutely should do | doesnt work for Apple systems. | ChrisMarshallNY wrote: | That makes sense. | | I really think they included the HDMI, just for projectors. | It's worthless, as a daily monitor port (to me). | usrusr wrote: | I consider that a given. In my mind I call HDMI "the new | VGA port" | nfriedly wrote: | I have a different LG ultrawide, and I was able to update its | firmware through their split screen software, which made it | behave much better with MacOS. | grog454 wrote: | What TB to DP adapter do you use? I have a similar setup (49" + | M1 Mac), but I have a KVM switch between them for switching | between the mac and a windows machine. The windows machine has | worked flawlessly, but not a day goes by that the Mac doesn't | crash the monitor and I have to force shutdown by holding the | monitor power button for 5s. | [deleted] | ChrisMarshallNY wrote: | I suspect that it might go to DisplayLink, on the Mac. | | I've learned to avoid DisplayLink. It's a hack. | | I have a USBC-to-DP adapter, that I plug into a TB port. | ChrisMarshallNY wrote: | Sorry. Should have been more specific. | | This is the cable that I use: | https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074V5MMCH | jhickok wrote: | You know, your use case about exactly mirrors mine-- I even | have that display. I got sick of waiting for the TS4 to become | available (waited a year, almost bought at 2x the price on | Ebay) and bought the Caldigit Element Hub. Mounted it under my | desk with double sided tape and now I just plug in the one | thubderbolt cable. I have yet to have a single issue. My M1Max | MBP has zero issues waking up and connecting to the devices. I | hope you can find a TS4! | ChrisMarshallNY wrote: | I thought about that hub, but now, I think I'll wait for the | TS4. | | I didn't want to shell out all that dosh, just to be | disappointed. | js2 wrote: | I've had good luck with the Elgato Thunderbolt docks. First | their TB2 dock which after I updated to a 2018 13" MBP 4-port | version I used with Apple's TB3 to TB2 adapter, and now their | TB3 dock, which I've used with both with that same 2018 MBP and | currently with a 16" M1 MBP. I've used the TB3 dock with a BenQ | 32" 4K monitor via DisplayPort, but I recently upgraded to the | Apple 5K Studio Display which is chained off the dock's TB3 | output. | | I attach a variety of USB devices (keyboard, mouse, backup | drives) and haven't had any trouble with it. | | It's over-priced at $250, but I picked it up from Costco last | December for $100. | | I mention it because it's been trouble-free for me and it never | seems to be listed in the reviews I've seen. | seanalltogether wrote: | > Also, the monitor would often fail to be recognized, after | the computer wakes, and I would have to reach under, and | unplug/replug, to get it recognized. I have the monitor plugged | directly into one of the TB ports, with a TB-to-DP cable, and | it works great. | | I get this all the time with my 2560x1440 144hz monitor even | though it is plugged directly into my m1 mbp. It's maddening | and I still can't figure out how to resolve it. | ChrisMarshallNY wrote: | I don't use the HDMI port. I have a USBC-to-DP adapter, that | I plug into a TB port. | | I think Apple cheaped out on the HDMI port. | paulmd wrote: | for you, and for parent: make sure you turn off "EUP | Compliance"/"EU Power" or "Deep Sleep Mode" options if you | have them... that's another source of issues surrounding | sleep/wake with monitors. | | Even apart from the monitor just hanging in the sleep | state... a lot of them have glitchy behavior until you hard | reboot the monitor. Some monitors actually will (internally) | execute a full reboot of the monitor controller board when | you wake them as a result, because they can't reliably come | back out of the Deep Sleep state, and that's _another_ source | of the "monitor disconnects and windows moves my | icons/windows" glitches. The monitor is actually | _electrically_ unplugging itself and replugging when it | wakes. | | Vendors don't really care because everyone (who's in the | know) turns the feature off because it's broken and causes | problems. | | This particular EU regulatory exercise was a failure. Or at | least, EU needs to rip off the bandaid and _require_ that it | be enabled with no option to disable it, which would | obviously lead to problems and poor reviews, which would | _eventually_ lead to a fix... after a couple years of glitchy | monitors. | larusso wrote: | > TB1/2/3 ports can be daisychained with up to 6 devices in the | chain. Hubs (i.e. a split in the connection) are not supported | until TB4. The last device in the chain can be a non-TB DP | display as well. | | This didn't work with the Apple Thunderbolt Display. I tried this | a few times and got this only to work with a TB Hub in the | middle. | | And to add to: > Thunderbolt 4 seems to be essentially just USB4 | with all optional items implemented (but USB4 is more like TB3 | than USB3...). | | TB4 is as described but adds restriction to min/max speeds. This | is more for the to be connected devices than the computer. It is | a form of seal that it will work with the highest possible speed. | Otherwise it could just be USB-4 or TB3. | ledgerdev wrote: | Guess what, my Lenovo TB4 dock isn't compatible with lenovo TB3 | laptops.. go figure, better yet just buy a framework! | notacoward wrote: | > It is like we've gone back to having many different types of | connectors | | Not quite. Before, if the cable provided by your device | manufacturer failed or was lost, you had practically no chance to | replace it other than buying another overpriced cable from the | original manufacturer. Keeping a backup around for every single | device was often infeasible. Now you have a very good chance of | finding an adequate replacement, even of a reasonably priced | _exact_ replacement if you work at it. | | "But you can fry your Nintendo Switch now!" Well, yeah, but | built-in signaling and negotiation has kept such cases rare | enough to make the news, and it wasn't impossible before. Maybe | not with the smaller devices using unique connectors, but back | then it was common to reduce the number of adapters by carrying a | "universal" one and a bag of tips. Set the voltage wrong and | BZZZT fried laptop. | | So it's complex in _different_ ways but I agree with those who | say that thinking it 's _worse_ requires some serious rose- | colored glasses (or not having been an adult during that time). I | 'll take being able to charge nearly a dozen different devices, | from earbuds to laptops, with the same _one_ charger and cables, | even if that cable doesn 't provide absolutely full functionality | for every combination. Carrying around a bunch of separate | connectors and (usually built in) cables really sucked. In | practical terms, it left people stranded without any power | option, or with an actually dead device, even more often. | Cu3PO42 wrote: | > TB1/2/3 are only implemented by Intel chips, and TB1/2 is used | almost exclusively by Apple. TB4/USB4 can be implemented by other | chip makers too, but this has not happened yet I believe. | | Apple has made USB4 controllers for their M1/M2 devices. Though | it isn't fully clear to me if the author is aware and meant | "chipmakers other than Intel and Apple". | rizzaxc wrote: | has anyone tried their M1 Pro with 2 4K monitors, one at 120/ 144 | and the other at 60 using 1 cable? I think it's theoretically | possible with compression but I'm afraid of compatibility issues | paulmd wrote: | TB3/USB4 tops out at a pair of 4K60 displays. I don't think | even DSC can get you a 50-70% bandwidth increase regardless of | whether M1 Pro/Max support them. | rrgok wrote: | I'm starting to think that it is all purposefully designed to | confuse the consumer. There is no reason, absolutely no reason at | all, that the same cable/port can sometime transport only video, | sometime only audio, sometime only raw data, sometime only power | and sometime all of them put together or some combination of | them. We can connect to a server to other side of the world or | watch movie from youtube with the same cable (Ethernet, heck with | the same connection) while writing a comment in HN, but somehow | connecting a monitor and usb keyboard needs N different type of | cables/port. | notacoward wrote: | > There is no reason, absolutely no reason at all | | There is a reason: cost. A lower-capability cable is cheaper to | make, and people don't want to pay more when the lower | capability (often just power) is all they need. If every cable | had to be made to the absolute highest spec, people would | complain about that too. There are also economies of scale etc. | from using the same connector. | | Yes, the situation is bad. Worse than it needs to be. Better | branding and labeling and OS diagnostics would all help. But | "absolutely no reason" is still either naive or exaggeration. | cowtools wrote: | It's not just about the cable, it's about the controller chip | on either side of the cable, and the bandwidth (pcie, etc.) | attached to the controller. | | You can't make a standard that always does everything while | being afforable enough to be used in low-cost, low-margin | devices | colordrops wrote: | Yeah you can, enforce labeling and colors, maybe even an | extra nub that only fits certain ports if capabilities aren't | needed. | tiffanyh wrote: | Does anyone know of a good (single) comparison chart with: | | - power wattage | | - data speeds | | - capabilities (eg Display Port) | | I've found a few below but they aren't complete. | | [0] https://cdn- | learn.adafruit.com/assets/assets/000/085/324/med... | | [1] https://www.akitio.com/images/support/faq/thunderbolt3-vs- | us... | | [2] https://i.redd.it/1n2tk9cd9kj21.png | | [3] | https://www.thunderbolttechnology.net/sites/default/files/th... | brian_herman wrote: | The styles of this site are amazing black and white. | nfriedly wrote: | I prefer DisplayPort over HDMI, and find it rather annoying how | many USB-C hubs only have HDMI options - especially when it means | extra circuitry to convert from DP to HDMI. | burlesona wrote: | Ok I knew the situation was confusing but after reading this I am | dumbfounded. It seems so much strictly worse than the old world | of having different cables with different connectors - yes you | had to have a lot of different cables but you couldn't _get it | wrong_. Now we have all the same complexity _and_ you can't tell | what's what by just looking at the connector. | izacus wrote: | And now if you "get it wrong" you still mostly get a functional | experience at slower speed or resolution. | | Which is still a massive massive improvement over finding out | that you can't plug in a device because you lack the exact same | cable or needs. | | Nowadays this only happens at the edge of capabilities, not for | basic functionality. | | Good riddance. I don't want to lug 10 cables with me instead of | a single high end USB-C. | colordrops wrote: | Naw, I'd rather it not work than work at lower refresh rate | or resolution. | izacus wrote: | You can always then throw the cable in the garbage and | simulate the old situation of not having anything. | colordrops wrote: | That's precisely what I do, after having lost a few hours | messing with graphics drivers and kernel params before I | realize it was the cable. Would have rather had my time | back. | quest88 wrote: | I disagree. It's harder to debug why the peripheral is not | 100% functional. Moreso for those non-technical folks. | bombcar wrote: | It reminds me of people buying nice VGA LED monitors and | running them at non native resolutions. | | I used to be quite well known as the "computer guy" because | I would set people to native resolution. | wonnage wrote: | Things are just insanely complicated now but I don't blame | the connector. I had the un-fun experience of trying to get | 4k 60hz working on my Mac recently. Turns out I had to | toggle a setting on my monitor to reserve more bandwidth | for display resolution instead of for USB devices. This | supposedly isn't a problem if the Mac supported display | stream compression, and it's supposed to, but apparently | that broke as part of some Big Sur update. | | USB has always had software bugs but the explosion of | optional features and unexpected hardware combinations has | made it feel like Bluetooth; connecting is the easy part, | but have fun negotiating all the different profiles and | making sure both ends of the connection support the same | things. | izacus wrote: | It's the exact same situation like having to debug a broken | HDMI or DP cable. You don't get any more info, you just | have less flexibility and more crap to lug around. | vladvasiliu wrote: | This. And I think there's also the software that's involved | in all this. | | At work, I have an HP laptop with Thunderbolt 4, DP alt- | mode, etc. | | I use an external screen and kb/mouse, so I have an HP | USB-C G5 dock. It has a USB-C connector, only supports up | to USB 3, but that's fine. It supports DP 1.4 and HDMI 2.0. | | Its cable is fixed, so I'd expect it to be "up to | standard". Also, HP Dock, HP laptop, Windows 11 as | recommended by HP, you'd expect all this to just work, | right? | | Wrong! If I want 4k@60Hz on the monitor, I have to do a | stupid dance of plugging the monitor on HDMI _in addition_ | to DP (doesn 't work if DP isn't plugged in), unplug de DP, | replug the DP, unplug the HDMI. It then works as expected. | Colors are weird on HDMI (doesn't do 4:4:4 coding for some | reason) so I insist on a DP connection. | | Once this setup gets going, it will usually survive a sleep | / wake cycle ( _if_ the PC wakes up, but that 's a | different story). However, there's a pretty good chance the | image will be partially messed up: most often crazy colors | and moving lines, sometimes the image will be OK, only | somewhat misaligned (think old LCDs with VGA connectors | before "auto-adjusting" them) and the monitor will complain | of frequency mismatch or something. If I switch inputs on | the monitor, it will come back OK. It will not survive a | reboot (have to do the dance again). The BIOS has a special | "use high definition" entry, that warns against reducing | the USB bandwidth. Didn't make a difference. | | At home, I have an HP desktop with Thunderbolt 3, DP out, | etc. I have a USB-C monitor which works fine up until the | Windows login screen when it goes blank (no signal). | Windows install worked fine. It works if I force the | resolution to less than 4k@60Hz. I only got to see the | Windows desktop once with this. Didn't survive a reboot and | never worked again. | | None of this happens with Linux/X11, everything works as | expected on the same hardware. | | I fancy myself fairly technical, but I have to admit I have | no idea what's going on. Not even where to start looking | for issues. I've tried updating the BIOS/firmware across | all devices, no luck. | bombcar wrote: | It's always the cable. Except when it's not, then it's | another cable. | | What happens is Windows tries to help - and so switched | out of the mode you wanted because something in the cable | or negotiation indicated it wouldn't work. | | Linux often doesn't do that and just blindly runs ahead - | and so if the monitor becomes working a moment later - it | works. | | Utilities for Mac and windows can sometimes force what | mode it uses. | vladvasiliu wrote: | This could possibly explain the issue with the USB-C | monitor, but then why would this work after the HDMI | circus? The hardware and OS clearly are capable of doing | this, and no cable is replaced in the process. I also | don't move them around during the reboot. | bombcar wrote: | I'd suspect crappy monitor software that changes what it | reports on ALL interfaces when it detects an HDMI cable. | vladvasiliu wrote: | And yet, the same DP connector on the same monitor with | the same cable works fine when plugged into a DP | connector on another computer (on Windows). | danieldk wrote: | _I have an HP USB-C G5 dock_ | | USB-C docks (as in USB and DP-Alt mode over USB-C) and | dongles are a world of hurt. We had a bunch of them | (including from reputable vendors like Lenovo and Anker) | and we always had issues, needing to replug the cable | because charging wouldn't work, crappy network adapters, | suspend-wake issues, BlueTooth/WiFi interference, etc. | The only adapter that worked well were the Apple Digital | Multiport AV adapter, but it is overpriced and only has a | measly 2 ports (plus power passthrough). | | My wife and I both switched to Thunderbolt 3 docks both | at home and at the office and the problems are gone. | Everything always comes up, including after sleep-wake | cycles. If often have my private MBP stationary and | hooked up for days. | | I really love Thunderbolt docks, just plug one cable and | you have everything hooked up. | vladvasiliu wrote: | Well, I daily drive a Linux box, and I've been using a | USB-C monitor with integrated hub for years without any | issue. Both the HP and the cheap Chinese dock work | perfectly with Linux. No sleep/interference/missing | devices issues. I only noticed this because I was | recently trying a few things on Windows at work. Hence, | my suspicion that the OS is somehow involved. | | Another issue is that thunderbolt only recently has | become more common on PCs. My late 2021 AMD laptop | doesn't have TB, for example. Only the higher-end HP | laptops at work had it, but they had other issues which | made them unusable for me (soldered RAM, under-powered | CPUs and shiny screens), so I chose lower-end models. | paulmd wrote: | See my comment elsewhere but usb-c to hdmi or thunderbolt | to hdmi is always an active conversion, and those | converter chips are (in my experience) pretty shitty | around edge cases like sleeping. Those problems I'm | referencing only show up when the laptop comes back from | sleep. | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32714107 | | Wouldn't be surprising at all to me if it was just down | to the active converter not handling it right, even on a | fancy expensive dock. There are only so many active | converter chips on the market after all and they're | oriented towards cost not correctness. | | And I mean, mine _sorta_ works after sleep... like 3 /4 | or 7/8 times. And if it were an active cable that you | were plugging and unplugging every time, that works 100%. | You only notice the flaw because it's a dock, and that's | not really what the converter was designed for. | vladvasiliu wrote: | That would explain the issue with the colors on HDMI, but | not why the DP connection doesn't work. | | This is DP pass-through, there's no DisplayLink or | similar involved. | cpurdy wrote: | >This is DP pass-through, there's no DisplayLink or | similar involved. | | How do you know that it is DisplayPort pass-through? | | From what I've seen, if it's going through a USB-C hub, | there is almost zero chance that it is DisplayPort pass- | through, although such a thing is possible to implement, | in theory. | vladvasiliu wrote: | Because it shows up on Linux as an output of the | integrated graphics card (DP-X-Y in xrandr), and it also | works in the BIOS or during Windows installation. | | Before this, I had a DisplayLink dock that would not work | on Linux without specific drivers. | | The HP specs [0] say the number of displays depends on | the computer's graphics card. | | Don't know if there's anything in between DisplayLink and | pass-through, though, so I can't be certain it's not | that. | | [0] https://support.hp.com/us-en/product/hp-usb-c- | dock-g5/277672... | | Specifically: | | _For USB-C functionality, host PC must support the | DisplayPort Alt mode protocol through its USB-C port._ | innocenat wrote: | I am pretty sure DP cannot be encaspulate in USB 3.1/3.2. | (USB4 can carry DP over Thunderbolt), so alternative mode | MUST be used (1 highspeed TX/RX pair for USB-C 5/10Gbps, | and another pair for DP Alt Mode). | eigen wrote: | > This is DP pass-through, there's no DisplayLink or | similar involved. | | is it, or is there a re-driver? also, there are 4 high- | speed lines in USB-C; 2 are used for USB3 so the other 2 | are for DP-HDMI convertor and DP connector. seems like | only 1 of HDMI or DP should work at 1 time. | | anyways, this is not an issue with USB but an issue with | the dock behavior. | vladvasiliu wrote: | > is it, or is there a re-driver? | | How would I go about verifying that? I've never installed | any driver for the dock, and the DP-connected screen | works during early boot. Linux recognizes it as DP-X-Y. | I've never had the curiosity of plugging in the HDMI port | under Linux. | | On Windows, it recognizes 3 screens when both DP and HDMI | are connected (the third being the internal laptop | display). | | I know there's a similar HP dock, the G2, that does say | it has DisplayLink, whereas this one doesn't. | | > the other 2 are for DP-HDMI convertor and DP connector. | seems like only 1 of HDMI or DP should work at 1 time. | | If it's a USB 3.2 2x2, shouldn't that be able to handle | one 4k@60Hz stream per lane, thus supporting two 4k@60 | displays at the same time? | cesarb wrote: | > Linux recognizes it as DP-X-Y. | | That's interesting, I've always seen Linux recognizing DP | ports as only DP-X in xrandr. So my first guess would be | that what you have within the dock is a something like a | DP MST hub, to split the single DP port into two, and | then one of these two ports goes into the active | converter to HDMI (perhaps in the same chip), while the | other is exposed as the DP socket. | vladvasiliu wrote: | You may be on to something, especially since I seem to | remember people having MST displays complaining about | wonky support. | | Another fun fact: the laptop I'm typing this on shows 4 | DP connections (DisplayPort-0 through 3), one HDMI-A-0, | one eDP. There's no dock connected to it right now. When | I was using the Chinese dock with a DP monitor, one of | the four was showing up as connected. | | The PC only has two USB-C connectors and one HDMI. So, I | guess it expects to be able to drive two displays per | USB-C port. | paulmd wrote: | ya, fair, I just wouldn't rule out the HDMI chipset doing | something stupid (negotiating down on colors etc) and | that causing havoc elsewhere... like (as a sibling | comment mentions) windows deciding to use that across all | the panels etc. | vladvasiliu wrote: | Possibly, that's why I suspect the OS is somehow | involved, too, especially since by default there's | nothing connected to the HDMI port. Or, at least, some | kind of interaction between the dock firmware and the OS. | | The other commenter mentioning that Linux "doesn't care | and plows through" could be on to something, too. | | But I should note that I haven't "forced" anything. The | display is detected as 4K@60Hz with no intervention on my | part. | | Whereas on Windows, before I do the dance, it only says | 4k@30, I can't manually change it to 60 Hz; not with the | standard Windows settings app, anyway. | | This also happens on a separate dock. But on that one, it | never works under Windows, DP or HDMI, dance or no dance. | Works perfectly on Linux, though. However, that's some | random Chinese dock off Amazon, so I chalked it up to | shady implementation on its side. | | However, this just goes to show that things aren't so | "simple" as OP stated, things can fail in weird ways | which aren't straightforward to diagnose. And the | hardware isn't obviously broken, either, since I'm typing | this on Linux attached to the Chinese dock in 4K@60Hz | without having done anything special to get it going. So, | something, somewhere, may be somehow out of spec, but how | can I diagnose that? On the face of it, all my components | are what I'm supposed to use. | | I guess there are just too many moving parts, whereas a | DP cable connected to the graphics card is pretty | straightforward. | theshrike79 wrote: | It's really fun trying to debug that crap. | | For example: My Macbook Pro has a 87 watt USB-C power supply. | My Steam Deck charges using USB-C. | | When I connect the two, the Deck tells me it's not charging | at full power. While being connected to a 2x more powerful | power supply than it's official one. | | Without consulting Google, can any regular person figure out | what is the issue? | | (SPOILER: Steam Deck only charges using 15V, the Apple PSU | supplies 9V and 20V, no 15V) | rwiggins wrote: | I suppose at least it _tells_ you that. That 's always my | worry with the cable shenanigans - that I'll get some | degraded experience and not realize it until it matters. | cube2222 wrote: | In contrast, I prefer the current world. Usually, when I | unexpectedly need some cable for some device (and i.e. have to | borrow it) it's for charging. And so far every time the cable + | charger worked for what I needed to charge. | | Data- and protocol-related stuff is more complex indeed, but | those I can usually research and check the specs of before | ordering, so it's really a non-issue. | | As this article describes, you can also just look for | everything Thunderbolt 4 compatible, as it's a standard on top | of the USB 4 standard that's just an aggregated specification | of "this stuff works" for most of the important extensions. | [deleted] | Latty wrote: | I disagree. | | I remember the hell of every phone having a different charging | cable and having to ask around hoping someone had the same | brand as you. Sure, it might be a bit of a pain that you can | find a cable/charger that won't support the full charging speed | of your device, but at least you can still charge it slower. | | If they'd changed the connector, you'd throw away your old | cables and buy new ones, so just do that every time for the new | spec if you really want. | makeitdouble wrote: | That's an oversimplification of the old world. | | We had different connectors that would or would not work | depending on your specific application. Some connectors would | only have a smaller set of pins for restricted use cases | (charging only, sound only etc.) than the full standard, you | still had the quality and ratings issue (think ethernet | cables), some companies would still recycle connectors used in | other contexts for their specific purpose (a sheer round | connector is one of those: there must be hundreds or | proprietary cables with a round connector). | | And of course you'd have adaptors to make a connector work in | an equivalent setup. | | Sure more shapes would make any of these issues limited to a | specific shape, but there was still plenty of room to get it | wrong. | | All in all I think USB C is still a step forward. | yjftsjthsd-h wrote: | > We had different connectors that would or would not work | depending on your specific application. Some connectors would | only have a smaller set of pins for restricted use cases | (charging only, sound only etc.) than the full standard, you | still had the quality and ratings issue (think ethernet | cables), some companies would still recycle connectors used | in other contexts for their specific purpose (a sheer round | connector is one of those: there must be hundreds or | proprietary cables with a round connector). | | Er, but isn't that exactly the problem with USB now? Not all | USB ports and all USB cables are interchangeable, some | devices use certain pins for restricted use cases (charging | only, sound only), cables and devices have painfully varying | quality (https://www.pcmag.com/news/poorly-designed-usb-c- | cable-kills... , | https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/11/google-engineer- | leav...), and companies reuse the one connector without | actually being fully compatible (Nintendo, I'm looking at | you). | makeitdouble wrote: | It totally is. I even have a Xiamo robot toy that uses the | USB-C shape connector over a completely proprietary | connection (non of the voltage or protocol match) | | The difference is it's one less issue to deal with: we | don't have to fret about the connector shape anymore. | | There's also a fighting chance to have "all around" cables | that match 90% of what you expect to be using it for. | alexvoda wrote: | Add to this complexity the fact that AMD 6000+ supports USB4. | And USB4 is sorta compatible with Thunderbolt 3 and 4, though | it is mandatory compatible with DP but no longer compatible | with HDMI. | | Also add USB4 v2 to the mix. | | It gets really complex. | paulmd wrote: | > it is mandatory compatible with DP but no longer compatible | with HDMI. | | Just FYI, not sure if you're intending to imply this but a | lot of people get it wrong regardless and it's worth saying: | usb-c/thunderbolt was NEVER compatible with HDMI. | | DP++ (the hdmi mode for DisplayPort connectors) is and has | always been an _optional_ extension, it's just so widely | supported on full-size DP ports that people don't even | realize it. And it's NOT included in most embedded | implementations of DP - like the usb-c alt mode. DP++ | involves using a different voltage, and it would be super | complex to do the voltage change in situations like that | across a USB link... you 'd probably have to have a voltage | converter for the DP pairs to run at HDMI voltages. | | Anyway, all usb-c to hdmi cables are active cables. The | adapters for hdmi 1.4 are dirt cheap and they're so small | they fit inside the plug, but, they're active converters and | they can have all kinds of weird behavior. Same for docks, | the hdmi coming off your thunderbolt dock is an active | converter chip and I've personally experienced hdmi-specific | glitches on a Dell thunderbolt dock that I think were | attributable to this. | kitsunesoba wrote: | This lines up with my experience of DisplayPort over TB and | USB being considerably less of a pain than HDMI over TB and | USB, and compounds with my experience of HDMI generally | being more of a pain than DisplayPort. | | Sometimes I wish HDMI would just go away, or for HDMI-only | devices (mainly TVs) to add a DisplayPort just so I | wouldn't have to deal with HDMI. | altairprime wrote: | On Zyxel 16.8 rackmount modem enclosures, the barrel power plug | that went into each modem blade was hot on the outside barrel | rather than on the inside like every other sensible power | connector using barrel plugs. | | So you would destroy a blade every couple weeks when an unused | or unplugged power connector barrel would touch the modem blade | and destroy the modem through its circuitry's apparently- | unprotected ground. | | We've been having connector issues for as long as we've had | connectors. | j-krieger wrote: | I disagree. USB-C is common for what, 3 years now? Issues like | these are growing pains. | paulmd wrote: | Usb-c was specified a decade ago and thunderbolt has been | around for a long ass time too. I could have bought "growing | pains" in 2016-2017, it's just a flaky standard at this | point. | jbverschoor wrote: | Or just pains that will grow in the coming years | philistine wrote: | Intel and Apple to the rescue. If you focus on Thunderbolt | ports, cables and docks, everything is simple to understand. | Theodores wrote: | I was hoping to find out if I can use a TB4 hub to connect two | computers for super fast networking. Currently I have a cable | between two computers, when I plug it in I get the ridiculous | fast speeds and it configures the point to point networking in | such a way it falls back to wifi if the cable is not present. | | I would like to do this with a TB4 hub in the middle. I don't | want to connect a GPU (yet) but I do want the speed of networking | with no latency that TB4 networking does. I think it is faster | than NVMe SSDs. | | Does anyone have a TB4 hub and two linux boxes and TB4 cables to | see what happens if you connect two computers via a TB4 hub - do | you get the networking automatically? | morsch wrote: | Apparently, it's possible: | https://www.reddit.com/r/Thunderbolt/comments/s6vq3k/connect... | [deleted] | chx wrote: | I can't tell what Linux does but USB4NET works without a hitch | through USB4 hubs. | | To go technical we need to check the USB4 System Overview. | https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/D1T1-3%20-%20USB4%20... | to find four types of Protocol are mapped to USB4: USB3 | Adapters, DP Adapters, PCIe Adapters, Host Interface Adapters. | We are all familiar with USB3, DP, PCIe but what is a "Host | Interface Adapter"? | | Now we need to open another document | https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/D2T1-3%20-%20USB4%20... | to find "Provides parallel communication channels: Control | Packet Routing, Host-to-host tunneling" under the Host | Interface section. It's Host-to-host tunneling we want. | | Finally, go to page 55 of this PDF and see Path Terminology -- | most importantly you can see there can be any number of Path | Segments. | | So to recap: The so called Thunderbolt networking is now called | USB4NET, it is provided by the Host Interface Adapter, and it | can travel over any number of routers. (In the first doc, you | can find routers are the fundamental block of USB4, host, | router, device are all routers and in this sense they are the | same.) | formerly_proven wrote: | > Does anyone have a TB4 hub and two linux boxes and TB4 cables | to see what happens if you connect two computers via a TB4 hub | - do you get the networking automatically? | | What happens if you plug two TB4 ports from the same device | into the hub? | Theodores wrote: | I don't fancy spotting $300 to find out. Right now I have a | mere USB C hub that does not do power delivery. I need a dock | and they cost money I can spend on other things. However, if | I knew of a dock that worked then I would get one, price | permitting. | formerly_proven wrote: | Ah I misunderstood. | | But since you use Thunderbolt networking, what is the | actual speed of it? I've seen statements that suggest it | emulates a 10 GbE NIC and so only does 10 gigabit/s, but | that sounds kinda weird. Is it a full duplex almost-40 | gigabit/s link? | justsomehnguy wrote: | > I think it is faster than NVMe SSDs | | NVMe is sitting directly on PCI-E bus, which is connected | directly to the CPU. The only thing what is faster than that is | RAM. | hatware wrote: | I think they are talking about bandwidth, not latency. | Thunderbolt should give 40gbps, which is a ton of bandwidth. | jbverschoor wrote: | I thought Thunderbolt was also directly on the pci bus which | is also a reason I don't want too many tb devices. I prefer | not to have my motherboard fried | Hackbraten wrote: | Not possible with just a TB4 hub. A Thunderbolt connection is | always between a host and one (or more) devices. It can't | support two hosts at the same time. | | What problem are you trying to solve, which isn't already | solved with your existing Ethernet cable? | | _Update:_ I stand corrected. [1] Turns out most Thunderbolt | controllers can act as downstream devices, too! | | [1]: | https://www.reddit.com/r/Thunderbolt/comments/s6vq3k/comment... | Theodores wrote: | Ethernet is going to need two ethernet adapters. I only need | two machines networked. | politician wrote: | This is the sort of post that I find myself wanting to click a | button and have it indexed into my personal information system, | so that I can find it later without hoping that it doesn't | disappear from the Internet or fall off search indices before I | need it. | | In lieu of this mythical system, this post on HN. | ajvs wrote: | archive.org? | Terretta wrote: | Add the Markdownload Markdown Web Clipper extension to your | browser. Exists for Chrome, Edge, Firefox, as well as Safari on | MacOS and iOS. | | Organize using whatever Markdown tool you like, from folders | and OS search to Obsidian.md. | ghaff wrote: | Use an online tagging service? | | I use pinboard.in all the time. A lot of people seem to like | raindrop which is newer and more maintained. | worble wrote: | Joplin has a great addon that can clip entire pages into a note | (with various options such as convert to md or just plain | html). Works great for articles but I imagine anything really | JS heavy might fall over, although luckily I've never really | had any problems with it myself. | darkteflon wrote: | Print to PDF -> put it in a "knowledge base" folder in your | home dir -> find it (or anything else) later using full-text | search with, e.g. Houdahspot. Simple and durable. I store | thousands of articles this way going back years. Search-first | interfaces are great. | rssoconnor wrote: | For a person satisfied with a single monitor, I figure it makes | sense to get a monitor that is itself a dock. | | At the moment I'm considering the Dell UltraSharp 32 4K USB-C Hub | Monitor - U3223QE. I know it is only a USB-C hub, but I'd like to | be able to plug my older laptops into it on occasion, so I need | something with a least an HDMI input and preferably also a | DisplayPort input. | | I don't know anything about monitor-hubs so if people have | comments or recommendations, please let me know. | mrweasel wrote: | The only thing I'd stay for using a Dell monitor is: If you | plan to use it with a Mac, be sure that they are compatible. | Dell has a fantastic return policy, which was lucky for me, | because the first USB-C monitor I ordered from then had a | pretty terrible image when I used a Mac. It's no fault of Dell, | it is Apple who are rather picky with displays. | | If you just need the one monitor, Dell has some great options. | I can just have the one cable to my laptop, everything else is | wired to the monitor and works great. | karmakaze wrote: | I've had the poor image quality problem with Macs and Dell | displays for ages. My go-to fix that usually works is to | generate a custom EDID profile for the monitor that lets it | negotiate to use RGB signalling rather that YPbPr 4:2:2 crap. | I think Apple does this on purpose. LG displays seem to work | out of the box. | | I Googled "Mac EDID ruby"[0] to try to find the script that | I'd found and used. | | [0] https://embdev.net/topic/284710 | MikePlacid wrote: | I was looking for a dock for a MacBook M1, and was going to | buy some $300 box (and there were no absolutely reassuring | reviews for any of them) and was compiling the similar | looking table - when I noticed that my Dell U2721DE has a | sound jack... and an Ethernet jack - and does not have any | problems docks have, like overheating. | | So the Dell monitor is connected to 3 computers now, it | switches sound depending on the video source (!) : USBC, | DisplayPort and HDMI all pass sound to my headphones. And | Ethernet stays with USBC box - exactly what I wanted. I still | need a keyboard/mouse switch but overall "Display as a dock" | setup turned out very good for me. | daviddever23box wrote: | Looks great! | | I am using a 350-nit Philips Brilliance 329P9H (manufactured by | AOC), and, frankly, the size makes a huge difference contra the | need for multiple panels. It works well with Windows and macOS | devices. | | One does not need Thunderbolt on a device like this; anything | latency-sensitive or bandwidth-intensive should be connected | directly as is. USB-C is fine. | vladvasiliu wrote: | I'd like having a high-speed (10Gb) network port on the | monitor, all connected through the single cable. | | Sure, I think some of the latest USB standards should be able | to support that while at the same time providing 4K@60Hz. But | I'd also like the monitor to support higher resolutions, too. | rssoconnor wrote: | Good observation. PC Magazine says the ethernet port of | this Dell monitor I'm considering is 1000Mb/s. I can | probably live with that, though I'd certainly prefer a | monitor-hub with a 10 Gb port if I can find one (that still | has DP and HDMI inputs). | JoshTriplett wrote: | A surprising number of monitor docks only support USB 2 | (perhaps because they think people will only use keyboards or | mice). | | Also, many monitor docks power off the USB ports when they go | to sleep, and then you can't use a device on those ports | (including a keyboard or mouse) to wake up the computer. | salmonlogs wrote: | Monitor USB ports also tend to have limited power output too. | | If you want to use a webcam and a usb Jabra speakerphone for | video calls you may exceed the power limits. | | Took me way too long to diagnose the issue | izacus wrote: | The reason for common USB2 in monitors is lack of bandwidth - | the non-Thunderbolt USB leaves only space for USB2.0 speeds | next to 4K@60Hz connection. | | Most new monitors will however allow you to switch to USB3.0 | speeds at the cost of being capped at 4K@30Hz. | innocenat wrote: | There is plenty of bandwidth if DP 1.4 is used. DP1.4 only | require one superspeed pair for 4K@60Hz, leaving the other | pair for USB3.1 data connection. | izacus wrote: | I'm guessing the monitors aren't using DP1.4 then, since | now I've met many (Phillips, Lenovo, etc.) USB-C screens | which have this switch in their settings. | rssoconnor wrote: | The Lenovo ThinkVision P27u-20 27-inch Monitor is Thunderbolt 4 | and cheaper, but also smaller and the ethernet port is still | only 1Gb/s. | aliceryhl wrote: | I have two monitors of this model and they work great with | both my work and personal laptop, both of which run Linux. | | You can connect the monitors with a display port cable, then | use a single USB-C cable to connect both to the laptop in one | go. The dock also works great for everything I've needed it | for. (dock only works on one monitor when daisy-chaining | them, but that's no big deal and appears to be a fundamental | limitation of using display port to daisy-chain.) | ridiculous_fish wrote: | I have this monitor and I really like it. | | It acts as both a USB hub and a KVM switch. I plug my MBP in | with USB-C, and also attach a Linux desktop via DisplayPort and | a separate USB3 cable. When I switch the display between the | Mac and desktop, my keyboard and mouse also switch because | they're connected to the monitor. | | As others have said, using USB C for display leaves only USB2 | speeds for other devices attached to the monitor. This is fine | for keyboard + mouse but I wouldn't attach an SSD to the | monitor's USB ports. | | Other nice qualities include connectivity options (USB-C, HDMI, | DisplayPort), a very beefy 90 watts power delivery, slim | bezels, and highly adjustable height/tilt/rotation. Downsides | are no speakers and 60 Hz refresh rate. But I haven't found | anything better than this display. | rssoconnor wrote: | How do you feel about the 32" size? I understand there is a | 27" version with identical features. | NonNefarious wrote: | Thanks for all that. | goalieca wrote: | Just be sure your monitor actually supports 60Hz with usb-c. I | had a dell once that claimed 4k@60 but they never exposed the | menu option to downgrade usb 3 speeds to usb2 speeds to support | the 60Hz. I was stuck at 30hz. HP monitors do not have this | problem. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-09-04 23:00 UTC)