[HN Gopher] The quiet cost of family caregiving
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The quiet cost of family caregiving
Author : prostoalex
Score : 42 points
Date : 2022-09-06 15:33 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com)
| ParksNet wrote:
| This is where voluntary euthanasia, as is being practiced in
| Canada, would be suitable option.
|
| I wouldn't want to continue living if I was a burden on society
| and my family.
| verisimi wrote:
| Just as long as its voluntary... but how can you ever assure
| that? That there's no coercion, temporary depression, etc. So,
| you can't assure that...
|
| The real question is why are governments so keen to legalise
| euthanasia?
|
| My view is its about population management. It eases the
| expenses, clears out the dead wood, etc. Governments really do
| think it is right that they should choose how long their
| citizens are around for, even if they say otherwise - its about
| control. I don't even think it's the only strategy they have to
| manage the population, nor even the most common one.
| cogman10 wrote:
| I think the problem is one of consent.
|
| I would want to be euthanized if in my old age I lost who I am.
| That is, severe dementia or Alzheimer's. The moment I can't
| remember who my kid is, that's when I'd want to be euthanized
| because at that point, it's a living death. (I saw my mother go
| through this with her mother).
|
| However, at that point, I'll have lost the ability to consent
| to be euthanized. Heck, I might even fight someone trying to
| put me down.
| anon291 wrote:
| If I were to apply this notion generally, the results would
| be absurd. The person who I was at age 14 is dead. The
| 30-year-old me is someone completely different. 14-year-old
| me would likely be aghast at the 30-year-old I've become, and
| would likely declare me insane and probably would have
| thought it better to die than to become who I am. Yet... here
| I am.
|
| The idea of making such a 'death wish' as a middle age person
| for your old age seems fine now. But the 80 year old you will
| be a different person than the 30-year-old, 40-year-old,
| 50-year-old, 60-year-old, and even 70-year-old you.
| kelseyfrog wrote:
| How do you think this would play out systemically? ie: what are
| the second-order systems-level changes that would occur if it
| was heterogenously applied?
| ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote:
| There are plenty of ways to go peacefully without the help of
| the state if you feel that way. I wouldn't look at Canada as a
| role model for euthanasia when not two weeks ago the program
| was in the news for inappropriately pushing it on vets.
| rr888 wrote:
| I completely would like the option of voluntary euthanasia
| myself, but I'm against legalizing it except for people with
| terminal diseases. Normalizing it puts people in a horrible
| position. If you're say 70 relatively healthy but maybe
| partially disabled and needs some care for 10-30 years. Maybe
| your kids love you but are working and have kids themselves so
| isn't easy to look after you. How about grandma takes the pill
| and eases the burden?
| candiddevmike wrote:
| My parents are getting old and I don't know what is worse:
| watching them waste away in a retirement home where you visit
| periodically or watching them waste away at my home. Curious to
| hear what other folks are considering/doing.
| prometheus76 wrote:
| My father-in-law lived with us for the last two years of his
| life (he just passed a few weeks ago). My wife is his only
| child, and he didn't have a lot of savings, so we were
| basically the only plan he had. It was difficult, especially as
| time went on (he had liver disease and later developed liver
| cancer). We both work full-time, so as soon as we would walk in
| the door, the requests (demands?) would begin.
|
| At the beginning, he was mostly frustrated because he couldn't
| drive anymore (falling asleep too much) and so he was very
| bored. He took up some hobbies (mostly carving or drawing) but
| even then, he was restless and often wanted to make dramatic
| changes to the living arrangements. He thought he could work a
| part-time job, but because of his other physical issues (he was
| very weak and it was hard for him to go up stairs or walk or
| stand for any length of time) he didn't really have much he
| could do.
|
| We got to know each other well, and my daughter was a saint in
| helping him a lot when we weren't there (especially during the
| summers). He cooked for us a lot, especially at the beginning,
| but towards the end, we had hospice care and he was essentially
| helpless.
|
| I don't regret it for one second. It was difficult, but we were
| there to help him with the medical system (it's a zoo),
| insurance, and just helping him with his phone or his tablet
| really helped calm him down. We all got to know him really
| well, and he and my wife were able to reconcile a lot of old
| issues they had.
|
| He died peacefully at home, surrounded by family, with a
| stomach of home-cooked food he loved, listening to his
| granddaughter play the violin. Again, I don't regret it for a
| second, even though it's emotionally very difficult.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| Thank you for a beautiful gesture and thoughtful comment. Did
| you and your wife know when you took him in that he was
| terminal? (I wonder if that might reconcile OP's anxiety with
| respect to an open-ended commitment with the resolve and
| satisfaction you describe.)
| prometheus76 wrote:
| We knew he had liver disease, but they couldn't really (or
| wouldn't?) give us a timeframe or expectation. He didn't
| take very good care of himself physically, so we thought it
| would be less than five years (he was 71 when he moved in
| with us). As time went on, however, it was clear he wasn't
| getting better. He also had diabetes, so his mobility just
| kept getting worse.
|
| He fell a few times, and just recently fell down the stairs
| and broke four of his vertebrae and three ribs. When they
| were x-raying his ribs, they found the cancer on his liver
| and on his lungs, so we immediately signed him up for
| hospice. As soon as he was able to get around with a back
| brace, we brought him home and he died just a couple of
| days after coming home.
|
| We all learned patience, sacrifice, love, and devotion to
| someone you love, no matter how hard it is. That lesson
| alone for my daughter is worth any level of sacrifice it
| took for my wife and I. I think it's also very healthy for
| children/young people to confront death and mortality and
| to go through the grieving process while they are at home
| with their parents. It's much more difficult to face it
| alone as an adult.
|
| I also am grateful we could provide a happy environment for
| him. His granddaughters and their spouses came over
| frequently for family meals (once or twice a week at
| least). He expressed how much he loved those times. And he
| was able to die at home peacefully and without struggle,
| surrounded by family. May we all be so blessed.
| whalesalad wrote:
| I'd probably take my own life before doing the latter.
| [deleted]
| ericmcer wrote:
| I watched my Aunt waste away at home, but she had a small house
| that she had been in for ~40 years. Her daily routine was
| deeply ingrained in her mind and she was able to function
| mostly alone into her 90s with severe dementia. Towards the end
| she didn't know me and would talk about her husband who was 20
| years dead as if he was still there, but she was able to take
| care of herself. If they had moved her to a nursing home I am
| sure she would have lost it.
| rs_rs_rs_rs_rs wrote:
| I'm eastern european, before visiting Germany I was under the
| impression a retirement home was for old people that don't have
| any family left at all. I was blown away to find out kids will
| put their parents in retirements instead of living and taking
| care of them until they pass away.
|
| How is this acceptable for a sane society?
| [deleted]
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I do not think my kids owe me anything. I want them to
| prioritize their lives, their futures, and their kids over
| me.
|
| I base this on watching my parents (especially my mother)
| spend their entire youth taking care of my paternal
| grandparents, who lived far too long (101 and 97). To boot,
| my grandfather had my dad in his 50s, and my grandmother was
| 15 years younger than him, so my mother basically spent ages
| 20 to 50 as a maid/nurse/cook.
|
| They spoke no English (living in the US) and they did not
| drive, and they detracted from my parents' ability to do what
| they wanted to do for their kids.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _How is this acceptable for a sane society?_
|
| A good starting point when trying to understand other
| cultures is to drop pretences of universal sanity or even
| morality. American culture values independence. Many senior
| citizens in old folks' homes pay for their own stays. They're
| choosing to be there. I'd start there to understand why this
| happens, and how it isn't a story of heartless holidaying
| kids dumping their parents on someone else.
| ok_dad wrote:
| > American culture values independence
|
| Translation: no one gives a fuck about anyone other than
| themselves and actively fucks over other people to get
| ahead the tiniest amount.
|
| Sorry, you were painting a very rosy picture about America
| and it's culture, but I thought I would balance it with the
| "other side" of the coin.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _no one gives a fuck about anyone other than themselves
| and actively fucks over other people to get ahead the
| tiniest amount_
|
| American culture also prizes traditional notions of
| community. (In a sense, this is its present political
| crisis.) The flip side of communal cultures is the
| stifling of individual choice and identity, the latter
| particularly problematic for anyone who diverges from the
| community's ideal.
|
| Note that independence and individuality are similar
| concepts. But they're distinct. Individualism is the
| American cultural trait that inspires competitiveness and
| sociopathy. Independence seeks to open one's options but
| also not be a burden to others. It can be framed
| selfishly or altruistically depending on the
| circumstances, which is why I don't think bringing
| judgement into such comparisons at the start is
| productive.
| ok_dad wrote:
| Good point, I guess I personally prefer communal cultures
| and my bias framed my view of American culture as a
| result.
|
| Still, you're taking close to the No true Scotsman
| fallacy; if American independent culture relies on local
| community, and that's broken right now due to tons of
| fighting and negative politics, that means our culture is
| basically broken. I would argue American culture doesn't
| work without the situation where locals take care of
| locals.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| With respect to taking care of elders, or more
| specifically, people who need assistance due to aging,
| almost all cultures are "broken" simply due to
| demographic issues.
|
| Longer life expectancies, more medical treatments to keep
| people around, but not fully functional, and declining
| birthrates inevitably lead to a situation where
| sacrifices have to be made.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _if American independent culture relies on local
| community, and that's broken right now due to tons of
| fighting and negative politics, that means our culture is
| basically broken_
|
| I said Americans prize a sense of community, not that we
| rely on it. Not universally, at least.
|
| And yes, I'd say this is a fault line across which
| American culture is inconsistent, potentially broken.
| Cartoonishly simplified, one side says you shouldn't have
| to rely on/burden your community, and so should have
| public options individually accessible. The other that
| local communities (families, towns, _et cetera_ should
| step up, albeit at the cost of demanding some amount of
| shared pain and conformity. It's a tough one to resolve
| if we insist everyone run the same playbook.
|
| I've always liked Hofstede's thoughts on the individual-
| collectivist spectrum [1].
|
| [1] https://hi.hofstede-insights.com/national-culture
| homieg33 wrote:
| (USA here) My mother always would tell us kids to put her in
| a retirement home as soon as she became a burden to the
| family. Her favorite children's book was also The Giving Tree
| so there's that.
| betaby wrote:
| Well, don't know about Germany but in Canada old-age people
| voluntarily move to retirements home. And yes, they took home
| equity / sold their home and eventually there won't be
| anything to inherit from them. Don't know whenever it better
| or not of the eastern European approach.
| evv555 wrote:
| How common is this in Canada? This doesn't sound like a
| representative anecdote. This sounds like a vacuously true
| statement as they say in statistics.
| betaby wrote:
| I would say very common, see
| https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2011/as-
| sa/98... from ten years ago. ' Among seniors in their
| nineties, over half (56.5%) lived in private households
| in 2011, including 28.7% who lived alone, 12.2% who were
| part of couples and 15.7% who lived with others, such as
| adult children. The remaining 43.5% lived in collectives
| such as nursing homes or residences for senior citizens.
| '
| LegitShady wrote:
| My mom took care of her father for ~2-3 years from when he
| started getting sick (and tbh a little dementia) to when he
| passed. It was really tough on her, even with some help.
|
| She told me she plans to not put that burden on anyone else,
| and has prepared for that situation exactly.
|
| People change as they go through suffering and some of the
| nicest people become quite difficult to deal with after years
| of physical problems, pain, etc. People also have lives and
| having someone around to deal with medical issues, or even
| wipe them in the bathroom, or make them a meal etc becomes
| challenging especially if the person's kids don't have other
| people around to help.
|
| That doesn't make putting someone in a home better, but its
| not simple like you seem to think it is.
| RappingBoomer wrote:
| we are far from sane
| kjreact wrote:
| I would like to offer a counter view; I originally was
| planning on taking care of both my parents and my in-laws as
| they aged, but to my surprise neither wanted that.
|
| Both sides have experienced taking care of their previous
| generation and saw the tensions it caused with their
| significant others. Now neither want to be a burden to our
| generation so they prefer to live independently.
|
| Unlike their parents who were poor immigrants to NA with
| little to no retirement savings, they held decent jobs for
| most of their adult lives and have the financial means to
| live comfortably for the remainder of their lives.
|
| So sometimes it isn't the kids who prefer to send their
| parents to retirement homes. Some seniors take pride in
| taking care of themselves.
| bojan wrote:
| Retirement homes in Western Europe are probably not the sort
| of thing you imagine.
|
| They are well regulated, and residents have a good mix of
| privacy, care and social interaction.
|
| I prefer vastly to end up in one of those one day then living
| in with my daughter and her future family. On workdays I'd
| still be alone and helpless for a good part of the day,
| waiting like a puppy for them to come home and tend to my
| physical and social needs. How miserable is that?
| bob_theslob646 wrote:
| It absolutely ridiculous that in the United States only a few
| states support assisted suicide.
|
| Don't even get me started on the costs related to take care of
| someone in a nursing home 5-8k minimum, per month.
| [deleted]
| smeagull wrote:
| I have been able to insure lost income for my homemaker wife (in
| the case of serious illness), that reflects the value of her
| contributions to the household, and it's a very decent chunk of
| money.
| andai wrote:
| https://archive.ph/9VIPZ
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