[HN Gopher] Globalstar SEC filing, Apple to use 85% of its satel... ___________________________________________________________________ Globalstar SEC filing, Apple to use 85% of its satellite network capacity Author : samwillis Score : 203 points Date : 2022-09-07 19:04 UTC (3 hours ago) (HTM) web link (sec.report) (TXT) w3m dump (sec.report) | manv1 wrote: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalstar | | 9,600 bit/s packet switched Internet access (Direct Internet) | 9,600 bit/s circuit switched data calls (Direct Dial-Up) | | That's probably under ideal conditions. | SSLy wrote: | APPL pays for new HW to replace their infra | greesil wrote: | Globalstar also has spectrum and the capability to have ancillary | terrestrial ground systems. Apple could just buy them now and | roll out its own cell network. | GekkePrutser wrote: | I'm surprised this feature is provided by Globalstar. That | network is, as the name says, global so why limit the feature to | the US and Canada? | wdb wrote: | Wondering how long it will take for it to work outside the Us | ceeplusplus wrote: | > Partner has agreed to make certain payments to the Company for | (i) 95% of the approved capital expenditures Globalstar makes in | connection with the new satellites described | | The real secret that will be studied in business school for | decades to come is Apple's supplier model. | hackernewds wrote: | Having trouble understanding this. Why is it special that the | supply model be studied? | yardie wrote: | While I wish it was Iridium I guess it sort of makes sense. Out | of all the GMDSS satellite provider Globalstar had the weakest | offshore coverage. It appears they focus on the probably more | popular land based coverage rather than true global open water | coverage. Iridium probably has more expensive product for true | global coverage. | walrus01 wrote: | Globalstar having "weak" offshore and truly global coverage is | because the present globalstar architecture is a bent pipe, a | satellite needs to be simultaneously in view of a globalstar- | run earth station and the end user terminal (handheld phone, | data modem module with antenna, etc). | | Globalstar in the serious two way satellite business has been a | joke for 15+ years, everyone who needs something serious | that'll work anywhere on the planet has implemented solutions | with Iridium, or something else geostationary based for low | data rate (inmarsat isatphone, if not needed for very high | latitude services). Or of course the wide array of different | types of Inmarsat medium speed much more costly data terminals | for briefcase-size folding (BGAN terminals, etc), ground | vehicles, ships and aviation. | | One of the Inmarsat 3rd party RF/modem partners is now making a | data terminal for the medium sized UAV market which is about | 3.5 pounds of stuff total including the antenna and good for | 200-300 kbps of data, albeit at a typically high inmarsat $ per | MB cost. | | Or with small ku/ka-band self aiming vsat terminals in radome | (commonly seen on ships), which get costly, which are quickly | having their market eaten by starlink's much higher speeds and | lower costs. | | The value of globalstar at this point is probably in its | spectrum licenses and legal entity's ability to operate, which | given sufficiently deep pockets in capital resources, can be | replaced with much newer and better tech in the L/S-band | satellite-to-phone RF segment. I would bet good money that the | people who are bankrolling this believe that they now have | reliable access to two things: | | a) relatively low $/kilogram cost for launches to LEO on some | spacex competitor | | b) low cost per unit mass production of satellites in an | assembly line fashion, much as starlink satellites are | currently churned out in large quantities. | | Obviously they now know that what Motorola designed in _1997_ | for satellite-to-satellite data links in the same orbital plane | for Iridium was the right way to go, I 'd be shocked if a | replacement Globalstar network did not implement a more modern | version of the same. Same general idea as spacex's beta | satellite-to-satellite laser links. | | In the defense contractor/military/DoD world I have literally | never seen a Globalstar terminal in use for anything anybody | cares about. The only globalstar phones I've seen were in the | hands of the staff of enthusiastic-but-utterly-telecom-clueless | international aid NGOs, which not surprisingly completely | failed to work in the location where they were trying to use | them. They ended up packing them back into their boxes, putting | them in a closet and buying Iridium handhelds. | | Here's a CURRENT globalstar coverage map: | | https://www.globalstar.com/Globalstar/media/Globalstar/Image... | | The part in the filing that says this: | | > Partner has agreed to make certain payments to the Company | for (i) 95% of the approved capital expenditures Globalstar | makes in connection with the new satellites described | | I translate this as meaning that they intend to forklift | upgrade the entire network to something that they think can | reasonably compete with Iridium (and now SpaceX/Starlink) in | addition to other regional players like Thuraya, and also of | course Inmarsat. | kylehotchkiss wrote: | Apple figured out how to effectively buy a satellite network | without inheriting their pile of debt! What happens to the | apple funded satellites if Globalstar goes under, is there | some special clause that moves them directly to Apple? | | If Apple really does acquire, I hope they ditch the bent pipe | architecture, work on sat-to-sat connection, and most | importantly for us, allow 2-way messaging on phones from sat, | enough to send photos and stuff. | hackernewds wrote: | Globalstar is a terrible asset and has limbered along for | 15 years. The fact that they would give up almost all their | capacity without even calling for an acquisition speaks to | their desperation, perhaps even Apple's | walrus01 wrote: | I am actually quite surprised that it hasn't gone fully | belly up some time in the past 10-12 years as their | product has been eclipsed by much more robust offerings | from competitors. How they've limped along with | additional funding I truly don't know. | kylehotchkiss wrote: | > Global customer segments include oil and gas, | government, mining, forestry, commercial fishing, | utilities, military, transportation, heavy construction, | emergency preparedness, and business continuity as well | as individual recreational users. | | From wikipedia. | | Their customers seem to be pretty phone-call heavy | industries, they aren't competitive on the data front, | but aren't they cheaper than Iridium for phone calls? | Melatonic wrote: | Those radio band licenses though are the real value here | walrus01 wrote: | If one looks at the past 10 years of revenue and company | size as a whole of Globalstar, it's absolutely minuscule as | a corporate entity, apple could buy them on a casual whim. | jsmith45 wrote: | No. The terms seem designed to have the fallback option be | for Apple to purchase the company outright, or possibly to | purchase at least a controlling interest. | | They have rules requiring the current Executive Chairman to | retain majority control for 5 years. They have a right of | first offer with him if he wants to sell stock. | | With the company they have the right to submit a | counteroffer to any sale of assets required to provide the | services, or proposed sales of the company itself. | | All of this makes me feel that they want to have this | company as an independent supplier, but have buying it up | as their backup plan. | Scoundreller wrote: | Globalstar was a joke, not because of its architecture, but | because its satellites got irradiated and degraded to the | point they couldn't handle a phone-call even in their on- | shore/near-shore use case. | | Nobody is going to invest in satellite phones or credits for | a provider that couldn't do space right. | | An interesting alternative to sat comms is HF-DL if you don't | care for security. Cool to see all the Russia seized and | reregistered jetliner equipment pinging and hearing HF-DL | stations around the world on ACARS. Slow though, 300-1200bps. | mardifoufs wrote: | How did they survive with such a degraded service, who is | still using them when there are alternatives? Were they | competitive back when they launched, but just couldn't fund | maintenance? Iridium also had severe financial problems but | their own constellation and services are still pretty | reliable (all things considered), so I'm curious! | walrus01 wrote: | They survived primarily on machine to machine telemetry | data services. | bombcar wrote: | Yep, these don't need instantaneous transfer so things | can buffer it, and they're probably already installed ... | walrus01 wrote: | Various ham radio data modes for 1200 bps or approximately | that speed can be implemented with big ass dipole and yagi | uda antennas for directional data links, with standard | crypto libraries between Linux systems operating as serial | bridge, it's just very very slow. And it's a gargantuan | pile of equipment and huge antenna compared to something | like iridium. | pclmulqdq wrote: | It turns out that long-range sat-to-sat connections are | actually really hard to do. SpaceX hasn't figured them out | yet, and neither has any other LEO provider. The people who | have figured them out are at MEO and higher, where you can | have fewer satellites and they can be a lot more expensive, | and they don't have any tricks: they just throw money and | power at the problem. | walrus01 wrote: | They were figured out in ka band rf for iridium 24+ years | ago, just at not very high data rates. For quite some | period of time the entire iridium network worldwide talked | to terrestrial networks in only two locations, Hawaii and | Arizona. | | I'm not sure what you mean by meo operators figuring them | out because the only current noteworthy meo operator is o3b | and their satellites are bent pipe architecture. | | Oneweb satellites, which is presently an incomplete | network, also do not implement satellite to satellite data | links. | pvarangot wrote: | Bird to bird in MEO in this type of constellations also | benefits from lower relative speed/doppler shift between | parties involved in the network. | [deleted] | leetrout wrote: | Interesting they will do this but for smaller companies they will | not go into contract if they are more than X% of ARR. | walrus01 wrote: | globalstar as a corporate entity is in such a weak and | precarious financial position (due to its near obsolete | satellite tech and existing network), with no money to fund the | many hundreds of millions needed for a new build+launch | campaign, that any partnership of this type is a life saver. | | without this deal it would be inevitable for the company to get | acquired and broken up for just the value of its operating and | spectrum licenses. | pmorici wrote: | Apple also appears to be taking an ownership stake in the | company so that probably aligns the incentives and reduces the | chance of them cutting and running. | samwillis wrote: | If I'm reading this filing right, Apple have committed to using | 85% of Globalstars satellite network capacity for the new | emergency messaging feature. It's seems astonishing to me that | they would be using this much bandwidth for that emergency | feature, and (at least initially) only on a small portion of | iPhones. | | My only thinking is that they may be planning to make the | satellite network available to none emergency messaging too, and | that's what's covered in this filing. | [deleted] | schappim wrote: | It isn't just used for the emergency feature, it is also used | for the "Find My" network. I suspect more traffic will come | from "Find My" than from the emergency feature. | c7DJTLrn wrote: | Source? That seems like a big omission from their keynote | earlier today. | melvinram wrote: | It wasn't omitted. It was covered in the keynote. It's also | on their website: Let friends know how | remote you go. If you're on an adventure | without cell service, you can now use Find My to | share your location via satellite so friends and | family know where you are. | ezfe wrote: | They did mention it during the keynote, but it's not | automatic. It appears you have to open Find My and click to | share your location over satellite each time. Might be | wrong though, they didn't go into detail. | valine wrote: | I was under the impression that the iPhone needs to be | very precisely pointed at a satellite for this to work. I | doubt it can be done passively when the phone is in your | pocket. | xenospn wrote: | If the phone detects you're away from the network, they | could prompt you to update your location every once in a | while. | chrisshroba wrote: | I have a Garmin InReach and it can send location | periodically. While it is more effective to have it out | and pointed at a satellite, it still works in my pocket, | but may just take a little longer to send the messages. | For a feature like Find My, many people won't mind if the | location being sent is a little stale, but with emergency | SOS, you really want your message to go out ASAP, so it | makes sense that you need to point at a satellite for | SOS, but not for Find My tracking. | GekkePrutser wrote: | The InReach Mini has a helix antenna specifically built | for maximum gain towards the sats though. The iPhone | doesn't. Apple has even built in a pointing feature for | it. | | You can't even realistically point the InReach Mini at a | satellite because it doesn't tell you where they are. At | any time there's only a couple of iridium sats in view | and they move quite fast across the sky. | | But the device has an antenna with the right amount of | upwards gain and the right polarisation to deal with | that. For an iphone it's a lot harder to incorporate | that. | quitit wrote: | You are correct - the keynote mentioned that location sharing | is also available over satellite. | gigatexal wrote: | There's 1B iPhone users. If 10% upgrade to a 14 pro and over | the course of a few years that will ramp | closetohome wrote: | Apparently it works with Find My as well. I wouldn't be | surprised if they started rolling out premium features that | take more bandwidth once everybody's free two years expires. | Melatonic wrote: | Yea this must be the main feature. And is pretty huge. The | emergency thing is icing on the cake. | | Unfortunately GlobalStar is probably one of the worst | satellite constellations out there (that I know of at least) | for actual communication (SPOT devices used or still use | GlobalStar and are famously crap compared to Garmin inReach | on Iridium). Of course it could be improved and they do have | the bandwith licenses which is important. | bombcar wrote: | This is it right here! The "emergency" part is a feel-good on | top of the real service, which is location updates every X | time even when off in no cell service land. | manderley wrote: | "every X time" meaning as often as you're willing to point | your phone at a satellite and wait a few minutes for your | location to transmit? | dougmwne wrote: | Not sure how much else they could do with it. You need to wave | your phone around at the sky to send a few bytes of data. It | must just be a really low capacity network. | matt-attack wrote: | Apple has apparently used a very very high gain (i.e. highly | directional) antenna. That's how they got around having that | big external antenna found on competitive hand-helds. | | I quite like the idea of aiming it by hand using software as | the guide. | oceanplexian wrote: | Maybe Globalstar needs a big antenna, but Iridium doesn't. | I have a Garmin InReach with a 1 inch antenna and it works | fine without any antenna pointing antics. | jsjohnst wrote: | > I have a Garmin InReach with a 1 inch antenna and it | works fine | | Your definition of the word "fine" is apparently rather | generous. Be in an actual emergency situation and the | InReach is down right frustrating as hell, but "better | than nothing". I don't have optimism for Apple's offering | either for the record. | turtlebits wrote: | I'd rather have no exposed antenna, no subscription fees | and no separate device. | | For emergencies, having to point at the sky isn't a big | deal. | dougmwne wrote: | But it IS a big deal! | | There's been a lot of research into emergency UX. | Basically, it needs to be dead simple or people die. In | an emergency, people are usually panicked, injured or in | shock. The tool needs to do its thing simply and | effortlessly to cut through the panic and confusion of a | real emergency. I have an avalanche transponder that is | one big button because when you friend just got buried | under 20 tons of snow and rocks, you have the leftover | brain for one button. | | From the demo, I think Apple is very aware of this which | is why they give you a series of canned prompts. They've | probably already used up a significant cognitive load by | having you point the phone for signal that having you | type as well was considered dangerous. | sbierwagen wrote: | Those large external antennas _are_ high gain. Gain is a | function of antenna area: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape | rture_(antenna)#Effective_a... | | Apple's antenna can only be smaller if it's lower gain. I | would bet they're making that tradeoff because they don't | need as much bandwidth. (Emergency pings could be measured | in dozens of bytes, let alone kilobytes or megabytes.) | squeaky-clean wrote: | The Aperture and Gain section of that article says that | gain refers to the directivity of an antenna | | > antennas with large effective apertures are considered | high-gain antennas (or beam antennas), which have | relatively small angular beam widths. | DesiLurker wrote: | I wonder if there could be a bluetooth (or connected) | high gain antenna attachment for the new iphone they | could sell as accessory. | vageli wrote: | > Apple has apparently used a very very high gain (i.e. | highly directional) antenna. That's how they got around | having that big external antenna found on competitive hand- | helds. | | > I quite like the idea of aiming it by hand using software | as the guide. | | In the event of an emergency, fumbling with my phone to | find service sounds like a nightmare. | midasuni wrote: | If you're in the middle of nowhere and have an emergency | where seconds count, you're dead anyway. This is the | difference between rescue in 2 hours and 2 days (or even | 2 weeks). Spending 5 minutes finding the transmitter | isn't a problem if you're stuck with a broken leg. If | you're struggling to control critical bleeding or are | doing CPR and are on your own (thus you can't spend the 5 | minutes finding a signal) then you're screwed anyway. | JohnFen wrote: | In my state, emergency services point out that if you use | an emergency locator such as a Garmin, you should expect | that it may be a couple of days before rescue comes | anyway. It depends on exactly where you are, of course. | reaperducer wrote: | But it will probably reduce the number of casual | pranksters. | | Also, difficult-to-use is better than zero connectivity, | which is the current situation. | kylehotchkiss wrote: | The tens of thousands billed for a frivolous rescue | request probably will stop the casual pranksters too, | getting a helicopter out to wherever you're stuck isn't a | free service. If you're really out in remote places | often, you probably know this well enough to get rescue | insurance. | JohnFen wrote: | In my state, the bill will be in the five or six figures | -- but if you were legitimately in real danger, they will | usually opt not to charge you. If you called them by | mistake or as a prank, you'll pay. | ar_turnbull wrote: | Actually it depends. In Canada, many rescue services are | free (North Shore Vancouver is a well known one here) as | well as in the National Parks (the cost is essentially | insurance paid for by the park pass fee) and many | provincial parks. | | There is an argument that pay for rescue causes people to | hesitate to call and that can lead to worse outcomes | and/or more dangerous rescue scenarios. | TillE wrote: | I don't know what the current state of the art is, but it | sounds considerably easier to use than old satellite | phones. Plus you don't have to lug around a satellite | phone. | detaro wrote: | It sounds worse than current dedicated emergency beacons | (which afaik usually are both satellite uplink and lower- | frequency beacon), and I'd expect many/most people using | them today will continue to carry them. But many people | don't, and even if you do it is another fallback. | spacedcowboy wrote: | The best camera is the one you have with you, and no- | one[*] carries around an SLR camera these days. | | Similarly, the best emergency-alert system is the one you | have with you. Apple is playing the long game, getting | their feet wet in a new area, and providing some value. | They will iterate, it's what they do. | | [1] For some definition of "no-one". Obviously some | people do carry around SLR's but it's a tiny minority. | detaro wrote: | Isn't that pretty much what I said? | oceanplexian wrote: | I carry an InReach mini in my airplane when flying over | wilderness areas. Unfortunately I don't think I could | trust the iPhone. With the Garmin you can press one | button and it'll send out an emergency beacon without | having to aim it. | googlryas wrote: | Where are you flying out of curiosity? Flying over | sparsely populated areas of rockies in Colorado, I very | frequently have cell service. Having said that, nothing | wrong with being prepared, I'm just curious about your | situation. I might start doing that too. I always figured | if I actually went down, landing would be the hard part, | not staying alive once I landed. | ar_turnbull wrote: | To be fair I barely trust my InReach either. Overcast | days, canyons, and any kind of tree cover consistently | result in delayed or failed messages. And even if they | report as "sent" on the device sometimes the recipient | doesn't get them. | | And for a dedicated device, the tracking feature is | laughably bad with worse accuracy than my friend's watch. | | Better than nothing in case of emergency but the | reliability leaves a lot to be desired. | detaro wrote: | Are the messaging and emergency functions the same with | those? For emergency beacons there is also a ~400Mhz | frequency that is monitored independently (vs satellite | communication at higher frequencies) | dewey wrote: | > In the event of an emergency, fumbling with my phone to | find service sounds like a nightmare. | | It doesn't have to be perfect, compared to the current | alternative of 1) Having nothing to fumble around or 2) | Be one of the few people with a full on expensive | satellite phone I think it's a valuable addition. | | Similar to how Chase Jarvis said "the best camera is the | one you always have with you", this is also the case for | emergency equipment. | midasuni wrote: | The other option is 3) a satelite distress beacon, but | most people don't have them | heartbreak wrote: | Imagine a repeat of Hurricane Harvey, but this time people can | request rescues via their iPhone's satellite capability. That | could generate a relatively high volume of traffic. | blantonl wrote: | I think you underestimate how many iPhones are sold per year, | and how many phones Apple forecasts to sell for the 14 model | which is satellite enabled. We're talking tens of millions | | Couple that with phones that will roam into satellite coverage | in rural areas... there will be extensive bandwidth | requirements from this newly deployed fleet. Especially in the | summer... | mort96 wrote: | They described the bandwidth as tens of seconds to minutes | for sending single, short, compressed messages, with your | phone aimed right at a satellite for the duration. This isn't | the kind of network which you "roam" with. | wmf wrote: | _phones that will roam into satellite coverage in rural | areas_ | | That's not what Apple announced. Satellite service is only | for emergencies and is cumbersome to use. | bdonlan wrote: | They mentioned a feature where your location could be sent | via satellite in "find my" even in a non-emergency. | xattt wrote: | It looks it still takes some effort to send out a message | with aiming and everything. | cavisne wrote: | The findmy feature was in the press release. The aiming | is probably only important for the sos case (sending the | message immediately). Findmy can probably just update the | location in the background whenever it gets a signal | tialaramex wrote: | Yes, findmy messages are store-and-forward. So the phone | notices, "Huh, I saw something, when I was here, at this | time, but I have no WiFi or cell signal" so it goes in a | pile, and then a while later it has satellite, but still | no WiFi or cell signal, so it sends out the pile. | | I'm surprised it's worth doing this, I'd have expected | that most findmy situations it's enough to get the pile | of data hours or days later when somebody has Internet | access again. Like, suppose I drop my airpods out of a | pocket on some mountain trail on Saturday morning, a | subsequent walker's iPhone sees them, but has no WiFi of | course, however on Monday they're in the office, their | iPhone reports it saw my airpods, X here at T time, and | that's enough that I should be able (if I want) to go | back and find them. | | The place you might spend longer periods with only | satellite is the open ocean, but basically if you lose | shit in the ocean it's fucking gone. | vineyardmike wrote: | Find My isn't just Find My Stuff. It's also Find My | Friends and Find My Family Member. | | The use case isn't AirPods lost in the tundra it's your | husband or wife lost in the tundra. | [deleted] | aabhay wrote: | For now! It would make sense for Apple to eventually | own/manage a satellite fleet for global communication in | the near future. The current carriers must be shitting | their pants about this. | kylehotchkiss wrote: | They're funding a large amount of GlobalStar's future | constellation, which seems like a pathway to ownership | (if Globalstar goes under or apple can acquire without | the debt burden) | ZetaZero wrote: | Apple also funds much of TSMC's growth, without any | pathway to ownership. Apple is likely just buying top | priority. | rjzzleep wrote: | Let's be real here, TSMC's growth is there with or | without Apple. | sangnoir wrote: | Apple prefers to keep away from the downsides of actual | ownership while having the upsides of being an only | customer | lotsofpulp wrote: | Does anyone prefer to keep the downsides? The only thing | stopping people is not having the cash to be able to do | the same. | jlmorton wrote: | I'm not exactly sure what you're imagining, but there are | fundamental physics problems in the way of just launching | a bunch of satellites and enabling global communications. | | Apple has partnered with Globalstar to use geostationary | satellites to send incredibly small amounts of data | measured in bytes, not kilobytes. These satellites have | only limited bandwidth, and it's very expensive. And with | the antenna size and power available in a phone today, | it's never going to be more than kilobytes. | | SpaceX Starlink/TMobile announced a much higher-bandwidth | option, but it's incredibly fleeting, lasting just a few | seconds. | | Starlink satellites are in very low Earth orbit, moving | at 8km/second. You can't just point an antenna at it and | have it work. The antenna needs to track the satellite. | And it needs to have a constant line of sight free of | obstructions. Starlink currently builds a very cheap | phased-array antenna, but it's still ~$1,000 to | manufacture, it's a couple cubic feet in volume, and it | uses >100 watts. | | Starlink V2 will bring very large antennas to Starlink | satellites which will enable direct 5G connectivity, but | that connectivity will last for a few seconds, with | perhaps thirty minutes between connections. | | I'm not saying it's impossible, but no one knows how to | build a satellite system currently that will cause any | carriers to shit their pants. | kanbara wrote: | not geosync, LEO. | oceanplexian wrote: | The way technology is headed there is a 110% chance that | the phased array tech gets miniaturized and put into a | phone. And once the constellation is filled in, you'll be | able to find any tiny slice of sky and talk to a starlink | sat that's flying through it. Indoors is still a problem | but who knows, things are always evolving. | simonh wrote: | You can't take say Moore's Law for chip tech and slap it | on to radio tech. They're fundamentally different | physical processes. There are limits to radio | transmission and reception bandwidth and range due to the | basic physics that you can't end run. The inverse square | law is a harsh master, for any given level of technology | a transmitter 100x closer is going to have a 10,000x | advantage however you slice it. | | What they might be able to do is expand this to something | like limited texting, or maybe down the line even non- | realtime voice messaging. | jorvi wrote: | We are still able to have two-way communication with both | Voyagers. | | Google's Lyra codec can already get down to 3Kb/s and be | reasonably audible. It's not a stretch to imagine within | a few years we'll be able to push that to below 1Kb/s. | | Taking those two things together, I think it's fairly | reasonable to assume at least text and voice are within | reach. | madengr wrote: | Globalstar simplex only takes about 200 mW over 2 seconds | to deliver a 72 byte message, into an antenna about 0 dBi | gain. See the STX3 transmitter module. | gtvwill wrote: | That doesn't feel very efficient. 72 bytes is nothing. | pcdoodle wrote: | 72 bytes is more than your reply here. | mlyle wrote: | > Apple has partnered with Globalstar to use | geostationary satellites | | I haven't read the announcement, but Globalstar's | constellation is in LEO. | tshaddox wrote: | Indeed. Until a few years ago I was also under the | impression that the satellite phone constellations were | geostationary or at least geosynchronous. I remember | growing up in the 90s hearing about satellite phones and | how they had a very noticeable delay, which I assumed | meant they were _way up there_. But perhaps that was just | an older generation of constellations, because Globalstar | and Iridium (by far the most popular networks in use by | consumer-grade devices) are definitely LEO. | walrus01 wrote: | inmarsat does sell a handheld satellite phone product | (google "inmarsat isatphone") which uses narrow band data | channels and handhelds to talk to geostationary | satellites. Its coverage is not quite as solid or | reliable as iridium, because you can be easily obstructed | by a mountain on your south side if you're at latitude | 45N or something, and doesn't extend beyond about 70 | degrees north, but it's also priced cheaper than iridium | for the hardware and the monthly service. | | what _most_ people think of as a satellite phone is | indeed LEO since iridium has the lion 's share of the | market. | gtvwill wrote: | Yeah but their satellites are basically oversized | analogue relays. So bandwidth is bugger all with little | capacity to increase it. So Leo or not it's like having | CDMA speeds as your cap. Pretty much useless for anything | other than a GPS location ping for emergency use. | walrus01 wrote: | > Apple has partnered with Globalstar to use | geostationary satellites | | globalstar's existing network and licenses have nothing | to do with geostationary _at all_. | | please don't comment on things like this if you have | fundamental misunderstandings about the nature of | different types of mutually incompatible satellite | network technology. | wmf wrote: | _Starlink V2 will bring very large antennas to Starlink | satellites which will enable direct 5G connectivity, but | that connectivity will last for a few seconds, with | perhaps thirty minutes between connections._ | | It sounded like temporary connectivity was only | initially; once they have a full shell of V2 satellites I | would expect constant connectivity. | shaklee3 wrote: | Starlink is not going to be faster than this necessarily. | Starlink is also low bandwidth, but has to be compatible | with _all_ phones. So they are not able to design | hardware in the phone with a better antenna for this | purpose as Apple can do. | deltree7 wrote: | They aren't. | | https://www.t-mobile.com/news/un-carrier/t-mobile-takes- | cove... | | I'd also bet on Starlink to scale better than Globalstar | (after they also own the fucking rockets). Add better | features and innovate | [deleted] | krrrh wrote: | The ones that are going to be hurting right away are Garmin | with their InReach line and Zoleo. This covers the most | important thing that backcountry types pay monthly fees and | carry an extra device for, which are emergencies, but Apple | didn't mention anything about two way texts which is a | secondary but important use. Backcountry hunters will still | pay money for now to be able to text home or send a message | to the floatplane pilot but that's not going to last for | long. Overall what they showed in terms of positioning the | phone to get a good satellite connection looks about as | reliable and cumbersome as using an InReach, which is fine. | | Today was a real shot at two of Garmin's profit centres | with the Apple Watch Pro also targeting their GPS sports | watches. | tacoman wrote: | I switched from Globalstar to Zoleo (Iridium) because | Globalstar wasn't reliable enough for use cases like | messaging the float plane pilot. I'd often have to wait | for certain times of the day to send messages or make | calls. This was at about 54 deg lat, so not in the | fringes at all. | | It may have been my device (older Qualcomm branded | phone), but my experience seems consistent with what | others report. | | On the contrary, I've been very happy with the Zoleo | device and service. It's been 100% reliable in all | conditions even in the middle of the bush. | golan wrote: | I own a Garmin InReach that I regularly take with me on | hiking expeditions (mostly Scotland, Iceland and South | Africa) and it's super handy on remote areas with no | coverage. The ability to send an SOS is the main feature, | but the two-way messaging system is just amazing for | peace of mind, for me and my family. However, the main | thing about the InReach is its ruggedness and battery | life, which I consider essential. I always carry an | iPhone with me that I use when and if I get reception, | but I need to carry a battery pack for it and it's always | in the back of my mind that an iPhone is a relatively | fragile device and it's one misstep away from | cracking/breaking/etc, hence the inReach. | | Moving forward, having both will be great, but I think | having to rely only on an iPhone would make me a bit | nervous, so I'm not sure how much of a threat this is for | the inReach devices (at least for now). | tshaddox wrote: | I think this drastically underestimates or at least | undersells the impact of convenience, or in this case the | maximum possible level of convenience which is _already | having the feature even if you don 't know it_. Similar | arguments could have and indeed were made for every other | small electronic device the smartphone has replaced. It's | not that the advantages you listed don't exist, it's just | that they won't hold a candle to the explosion of | smartphones with satellite messaging built in by default. | I feel like even just 1 year (and 200 million satellite- | enabled iPhones) from today pointing out these advantages | is going to look like people pointing out that land lines | have better audio quality and lower latency than cell | phones. | | I always carry my InReach with periodic location sharing | enabled when I'm on backpacking trips. I also almost | always carry it during international travel and road | trips, but not usually with periodic location sharing. If | iPhones start offering plans with periodic location | sharing, I'm fairly confident that I'd stop carrying the | InReach unless I was on a particularly remote trip that | was outside of my comfort zone (which isn't something I | really do anyway). | cameldrv wrote: | I'm pretty sure there won't be a two way feature here. | They're using the same network as SPOT and the feature | set looks very similar. With the classic SPOT, you can | send one of three preset messages along with your | coordinates, or send an emergency message. SPOT also lets | you track, which is the same message format but the | device sends it automatically at regular intervals. | | Communication is one-way only and there is no way to | verify delivery. | | I agree that this will cut into InReach sales, because it | provides about 70% of the capability and it's built into | your phone. That said, the two way full text messaging | and confirmation of delivery are huge advantages, | especially if you actually plan to use it as opposed to | it being a "just in case" communication device. | [deleted] | [deleted] | poulsbohemian wrote: | You do have to wonder at what point Apple decides they don't | need Verizon, T-Mobile et. al. Maybe it's still a long ways | off, but if you've gone through the effort of building | relationships, hardware, software, etc to weave together a | satellite network, why not just keep going down that path? | xattt wrote: | My guess for Apple's long game is is to turn the Find My | network into a distributed network for comms beyond location | data. | | One of the incentives to participate may be free or reduced- | cost satellite data. | martinald wrote: | You're vastly underestimating the bandwidth required for | cellular service. A starlink sat "cell" can do ~20gbit/sec | (though I actually think real world performance will be | massively lower). This covers hundreds of kilometres. | | A single cell tower with 5G/4G is not far off doing that, per | sector. And these cell towers can cover as little as 500m or | less in dense urban areas. The problem is there are very real | physics you come up against with this. We are really tapping | out efficiency gains these days so the only option is more, | higher frequency spectrum and much denser cell networks. | jsjohnst wrote: | > A single cell tower with 5G/4G is not far off doing that, | per sector. | | Assuming you mean LTE when you say 4G, the per sector | bandwidth is customarily an order of magnitude less 20gbps. | Even in the case of 5G, with sub-6Ghz, you rarely will see | above 15gbps. | wmf wrote: | Or the capacity of the network is _really_ low. | wongarsu wrote: | According to Wikipedia they have 52 first-generation | satellites from the late 90s, and 24 second-generation | satellites from around 2010. And if we go by Iridium's | lifetime I wouldn't expect the first generation to still be | operational. | | Compared to Starlink's 2400 currently operational satellites | that does seem low. Even compared to Iridium's 75 from the | late 2010s, Globalstar's 24 seems small. | thrdbndndn wrote: | >I wouldn't expect the first generation to still be | operational | | From Wikipedia: | | >In 2007, Globalstar launched eight additional first- | generation spare satellites into space to help compensate | for the premature failure of their in-orbit satellites. | Between 2010 and 2013, Globalstar launched 24 second- | generation satellites in an effort to restore their system | to full service. | | So you're totally right. | mirekrusin wrote: | They say 85% so it must be 17 out of 20, no? | oneplane wrote: | It's the kind of 'low bandwidth' you'd see with analog | telephone modems. A single JSON request-response over TLS | would take many seconds. | walrus01 wrote: | Current generation globalstar is about the same speed as | first gen iridium, which is around the speed of a 2400 | bps dialup modem from the late 1980s. | | With the current satellites, yes, if they think they have | enough capital (at least many hundreds of millions) to | launch a new clean sheet of paper design LEO network | using the existing globalstar L/S-band spectrum licenses, | they could implement something better. | | The value of globalstar is not in the existing satellites | and earth stations, which are pretty much trash at this | point for any modern use except very low data rate M2M | data in certain geographically restricted areas. The | value is in the existing LEO network operational | licenses. | oneplane wrote: | Yep, similar value is found on other technically inept | solutions that are mostly kept around to keep the license | to operate active (since some of those require active use | to retain them). | kylehotchkiss wrote: | The mentioned in the announcement developing a very | efficient data codec for text compression, I'd presume | something Binary and not over TLS, just raw data packets | probably with some encryption | oneplane wrote: | I'm sure the Apple use case is different from a web api, | but it was more for illustrative purposes. I imagine most | developers know how to wrap data in JSON and how to do a | HTTP call over TLS. When using that as a point of | reference, having such a transmission take a long time | might show how little bandwidth some M2M networks have | (or need). | | I wouldn't be surprised if the current Globalstar network | is so limited it wouldn't even do voice. | kylehotchkiss wrote: | They support voice (https://www.globalstar.com/en- | us/products/voice-and-data), it's my understanding that | it's analog and not digital though, like a really | narrowband landline phone call | alecfreudenberg wrote: | [deleted] | wmf wrote: | The timing of the Starlink/T-Mobile pre-announcement makes sense | now. | darknavi wrote: | And a lot more attractive. An addition subscription for a hard | to use SOS vs 3G data speeds for "free" for many T-Mobile | customers. | | I will also say one is vaporware at this point and one is | coming out next week. | alphabettsy wrote: | iPhone 14 users will enjoy both though right? | valine wrote: | Tmobile Starlink is text only. It definitely does not support | 3G data speeds. | modeless wrote: | SpaceX's offering is not 3G data speeds per user. It's 3G | data speed shared between all users in a "cell" which is 150 | square miles. Which requires drastically limiting what users | can use it for to avoid overwhelming the satellites. | Initially they will only allow text messages (not just SMS | though, select messaging apps will work). Maybe voice calls | in the future. | | But yeah, SpaceX's offering is going to be way better if it | works as advertised. Doesn't require buying a new phone. | Doesn't require holding your phone pointing in a particular | direction for minutes at a time. Can be used for any purpose, | not just emergencies. Potentially works anywhere on the | Earth's surface including the oceans and the poles, with the | only restrictions being legal/regulatory. | mandeepj wrote: | I believe Apple is going to - either acquire Globalstar or a | similar satellite carrier (Lynk?) in the future. It's safe to buy | stocks of the former. | boringg wrote: | Probably get some call options on Globalstar on an easy bounce. | mikece wrote: | Or hedge their bets by buying a right of first refusal option | from Globalstar should anyone else try to acquire them while | leaving Apple free to look for other options and partners. | jws wrote: | The feature is sold as a two year free subscription to the | service, not a feature of the device. That suggests to me | Apple isn't committed to this forever. They want do be able | to abandon the technology and human staffed relay | infrastructure if this is eclipsed by satellite 5G or some | other option and not get sued in 195 countries for breaking a | device feature after the sale. | mandeepj wrote: | > That suggests to me Apple isn't committed to this | forever. | | Apple TV+ is also offered as 1 year free service when you | buy a new phone, then you can also say the same about it, | but - in fact - needless to say, Apple is committed to it. | grork wrote: | I mean, there is this clause in the 8k: | | "On September 7, 2022, Partner and Thermo entered into a lock- | up and right of first offer agreement that generally (i) | requires Thermo to offer any shares of Globalstar common stock | to Partner before transferring them to any other Person other | than affiliates of Thermo and (ii) prohibits Thermo from | transferring shares of Globalstar common stock if such transfer | would cause Thermo to hold less than 51.00% of the outstanding | common stock of the Company for a period of 5 years from the | Service Launch (as defined below). This agreement does not | prohibit the Company from entering into a change of control | transaction at any time." | vzaliva wrote: | On September 7, 2022, Apple Inc. ("Partner") announced new | satellite-enabled services for certain of its products. | | Where's the announcement? | rzz3 wrote: | At the keynote this morning. | alberth wrote: | Box out competition. | | The title is misleading. The filing doesn't say Apple will "use" | 85%. | | The actual filing says | | "Allocate 85% of its current and future network capacity to | support the Services (see further discussion of capacity below)" | | This could simply be that Apple is buying up the bulk of the | capacity to box out competitors from offering same functionality. | | Just like what they do with TSMC. | wmf wrote: | I'm pretty sure Apple uses the TSMC capacity they pay for. To | do otherwise would be financial mismanagement. | minus7 wrote: | [deleted] | smm11 wrote: | Apple needs emergency satellite access the way it routes everyone | to the wrong place. | ezfe wrote: | 2012 was 10 years ago lol | post-it wrote: | I've come to prefer Apple Maps. I like that it tells me "skip | the next light" or "at the next light/stop sign, turn" rather | than just the street name. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-09-07 23:00 UTC)