[HN Gopher] Increase: Banking API ___________________________________________________________________ Increase: Banking API Author : pen2l Score : 263 points Date : 2022-09-13 18:53 UTC (4 hours ago) (HTM) web link (increase.com) (TXT) w3m dump (increase.com) | EGreg wrote: | Only in USA ? Or what | amccloud wrote: | How is this different from Stripe Treasury? | MuffinFlavored wrote: | Who are the target customers of Stripe Treasury? Existing banks | who are fully ultra integrated with legacy mainframe offerings? | | Who is looking into open a new bank/credit union and like... | how much money is needed? How do you compete with Ally or any | other "online" bank? How do you build trust and get people to | give you their money, and for what benefit to them? | JohnFen wrote: | I don't see how this addresses the problem of building trust, | though. | moneywoes wrote: | How is this different | arthurcolle wrote: | is this like Column? | jo6gwb wrote: | Looks more like a Bond, Unit, Synapse. | lame-robot-hoax wrote: | https://column.com/ | | For those that don't know what Column is. | sebmellen wrote: | It appears to be virtually the same service as Column, but they | lack their own bank. | wcoenen wrote: | Is this like Vodeno in europe? When looking at job listings, I | realized that Aion Bank appears to be just a marketing wrapper | around Vodeno, which handles all the administration, technical | stuff and even banking license and customer support. | pen2l wrote: | Their lead UI guy was previously the UI lead at Stripe. I think | of him as someone who appreciates and understands the importance | of well-thought-out UI so I'm looking forward to how Increase | pans out for that reason in particular. | anon1094 wrote: | That's Benjamin De Cock. For the folks interested he documents | a lot of his process on Twitter. | | https://twitter.com/bdc/status/1546866502225346560 | holler wrote: | Now it makes sense how their landing page is so impressive, and | also reminds me of Stripe design. | benjamindc wrote: | Thank you, means a lot :) | pen2l wrote: | Oh hey, I'm a big fan! | | I think while others have commented on how _beautiful_ your | creations are, I rather admire you for the care and detail | you put on UI. Beautiful things are not always easy to use, | and things that are well-laid-out and easy-to-use are not | always beautiful. You have somehow arrived at the magical | place where you 've got them both down. | benjamindc wrote: | Thank you, I'm glad you like it! I try to find a good | balance between form and function, and create a | consistent environment for the customer. The homepage is | definitely more "artistic" than the dashboard, for | instance, but hopefully they clearly belong to the same | brand and give you a similar look and feel. | | (For the anecdote and because you mentioned it, it always | annoyed me that we had a pretty different visual language | at Stripe between the site and the dashboard. I designed | Stripe's homepage but not its dashboard, whereas I did | both at the same time for Increase. Consistency is really | hard to achieve between multiple products as the optimal | visual treatment is different for a site and an | information-dense UI.) | pbreit wrote: | I wonder who else is behind this? | | https://www.linkedin.com/company/increasebank/people/ | pen2l wrote: | There appear to be some ex-Stripe people, some from Visa and | some from other fintech places. | orliesaurus wrote: | I wonder if these banking startups are part of the fallout of the | leadership exodus at Stripe that has been happening recently? | londons_explore wrote: | I made an API for a bank... I was a third party and made the API | by screen scraping their webUI. I sent their devs a link and | initially there were positive messages going back and forth. | | The API allowed you to see balance, transaction history, and make | payments. | | Before long, the API got quite popular, and lots of people were | using it to make lots of payments automatically. | | You know what makes money laundering super easy... a banking API | so you can split the million dollars you want to launder into 1 | million 1 dollar payments. And an API client which lets you treat | each login cookie and account as an object in python. | | Before long, the API and all users who had ever used it were | perma-banned from the bank, because it was determined they posed | too high a fraud/money-laundering risk. | | I'm still salty because, after spending a week of my life | building and refining that API, they banned me and _6 years | later_ still claim they can 't return the $350 that was in the | account because they are still 'investigating'. | redox99 wrote: | I hate to be "that guy", but this is why I hate banks and like | crypto. Both the fact that crypto is obviously trivial to | automate, and that banks can unilaterally ban you and steal | your money. | rutierut wrote: | It's pretty easy to not "ban you and steal your money" when | you're not required/able to prevent people from laundering | money/evading taxes. | kinjba11 wrote: | Doesn't crypto have the same problem, with money laundering | and other crimes? If you lose money with crypto, there is no | one to sue nor government insurance. | redox99 wrote: | > Doesn't crypto have the same problem, with money | laundering and other crimes? | | I don't see how that's the same problem? They are clearly | separate, distinct problems. | | There are obviously both advantages and disadvantages to | both crypto and banking. As someone who lives in a country | that has been through a lot of bullshit, I highly value the | fact that the bank can't just take away my money. | taberiand wrote: | Crypto of course being famously free of fraud and theft, with | no tendency at all towards coalescing control around a small, | centralised set of decision makers. | blantonl wrote: | No good deed does unpunished. | yboris wrote: | I think this is one of the most unfortunate memes that people | for some reason still continue to share. | | Think about what it teaches children when they hear it? What | kind of a world view does it instill? By saying the phrase | you are _explicitly_ communicating the idea that it is (at | least is some sense) better to not do good deeds. | NoboruWataya wrote: | I don't think people are out there teaching kids to live | their lives by this mantra. It's not intended to be a life | philosophy, more of a bleak and darkly humorous | observation. Sure, it's not always true, but it sure does | feel like it sometimes. | | Kind of like "life's a bitch, and then you die", it's not | meant to be taken too seriously. | geraldwhen wrote: | Search for "woman murdered while helping motorist". | | There are too many evil people to willfully ignore the | dangers of helping others. You should always, always be | aware of the risks you're putting yourself in any | situation. In life, in work, in family, it doesn't matter. | And yes, that's worth teaching children. | londons_explore wrote: | Sometimes you get something positive out of helping a | stranger too... A new friend, a favour in return, or | simply experience of doing something new/different. | | As long as the positives outweigh the dangers, it's worth | doing. | jtbayly wrote: | Won't somebody think of the children?! ;) | JohnFen wrote: | > You know what makes money laundering super easy... a banking | API so you can split the million dollars you want to launder | into 1 million 1 dollar payments. | | That would be noticed. It's called "structuring" and is itself | illegal. Banks watch for this stuff. | londons_explore wrote: | Yes, but when your script splits money into random amounts | and puts things like "pizza money", "rent" and "happy | birthday" into the reference field, across thousands of | accounts, most of whom also have a real user doing real | transactions intermingled, suddenly it gets a lot harder for | the bank to filter. | | The bank typically has a rather simplistic set of rules to | decide to investigate transactions (because they need to be | able to explain how the rules work in a meeting with the | government whenever their rules miss someone). Things like | "Transaction was over $1000 to a new payee or the reference | contained the word 'bitcoin'". The investigation will | typically involve a human calling the customer, and sometimes | asking for more evidence of what the transfer was for - for | example, please send us the receipt for the car you said you | bought. It's quite an expensive process for the bank. | | So, when someone via the API sends tens of thousands of | transfers, the bank is spending lots of human hours verifying | some/all of those. "My script sent $55 to some stranger | because I won a fully automated bet on the weather" is far | harder to verify with documentation too. And when some slip | through the cracks, they get in trouble with the regulator. | b8ZLPMRFnnfID4M wrote: | That's silly. You could just as easily to the same thing | with checks, or even cards. | MalcolmDwyer wrote: | Millions of checks or millions of cards is "just as easy" | as millions of API calls? | jtbayly wrote: | How do the launderers have access to thousands of accounts? | And why wouldn't the actual owners of the accounts report | the transactions? | quickthrower2 wrote: | The api seems to let you create new accounts fairly | easily. Seems odd to me as the API provider is the bank. | Based on KYC I presume they think they are all splits of | the same account holder? | | I learned the other day that the name on account means | shit, because scammers often give $account_details + | $catfish_name and receive the money to $bank_details + | $real_name. | | I don't see how splitting to 1000 transactions and | sending money to yourself helps with money laundering or | undercover money sending. | londons_explore wrote: | You normally start an ad campaign across facebook | offering discount beauty products but you need to | 'enable' this 'security software' onto your bank | account... | lisper wrote: | Heh, you got off easy. I spent _six years of actual work_ | learning this lesson the hard way back in 2006-2012. | | In retrospect, I should have paid a lot more attention when | Patric Collison told me he was spending his days reading up | banking regulations. Eh, too boring, I thought, what could | possibly be in there that a little code couldn't paper over? | That mistake cost me the opportunity to be an early hire at | Stripe. | c7b wrote: | Contact the FDIC rather than the bank next time, I've heard of | cases where that helped. | jjcm wrote: | A part of me really wants you to check in with them every year, | to see how long they can claim they're "still investigating" | for. | | This is great insight though re: money laundering. Something | I'd have never expected would be the result of an API. | londons_explore wrote: | Don't worry... I do... | | The guy assigned to my case retired. As did the next guy. And | now there is a lady assigned to the case, but she has been | out of the office for all of the last 3 years... | | Every time I call, I get told they can't discuss cases over | the phone, but that they will send me a paper letter as an | update... And it isn't a template letter either... But it | always just says I need to keep waiting and there is no | action I can take to speed the process up... | Seattle3503 wrote: | What would happen if you took them to small claims court? | londons_explore wrote: | Not really worth the 2 days off work it would take (1 to | learn the necessary law/rules/procedures, and one to | actually attend court).... Although if I'm bored in the | future I might. | claytongulick wrote: | I heard of a case where a person did this and won their | claim in small claims court, the defendant (I think it | was Verizon?) never showed up. | | They got a default judgement, but still couldn't actually | collect the amount owed. | | So they ended up filing a foreclosure on the actual | building - and it worked! The foreclosure went through, | and the company almost lost their brick and mortar store. | | Took years for the process, but it was nice to see that | the courts can and will defend an individual. This all | took place in TX IIRC. | redavni wrote: | You need to send a request in writing. | xyzzy123 wrote: | Or contact the financial ombudsman assuming this is in | the uk. | spydum wrote: | so, treasury management systems exist for big corps (FIS, | FIServe, GTreasury, etc), and some banks do have legit apis for | cash flow mgmt (payments transfers etc). i think problem is | most dont want the hassle of supporting it for consumers. | alaxic wrote: | me_bx wrote: | Is there any information on the website about the company | providing the service, and/or its founder(s)? I found the | official name "Increase, Inc" in the privacy policy page, but | nothing more. | | Aren't these fundamentals to build trust, especially for a B2B | banking product? | c7b wrote: | It sounds cool, but I don't fully understand: is this a fully- | fledged US bank (with a banking license, FDIC insurance, | audited,...) that allows you to do all banking transactions | through an API, or is this a framework that you can use if you | are already a bank to expose all your transactions through an | API, or something else? | [deleted] | hn_throwaway_99 wrote: | They are not a full-fledged bank, they partner with banks to | provide the FDIC insurance, etc. | | There are a number of competitors in this "Banking as a | Service" API space like Treasury Prime and Galileo. | Ayesh wrote: | I think they provide a backend so you can issue your own cards, | with bank accounts routable through normal banking systems. | Payoneer famously rely on third party "back-end" banks for | their services, as they issue cards, offer routable bank | accounts, cash withdrawal, etc. | | This is an extremely niche use case of course, but it's not the | first time they popped up on HN at least. | | In mobile ISPs, MVNOs are quite common, and there is a large | amount of customer base because they simplify KYC, sales, and | customer on-boarding. Technically, this API should provide the | platform to build a similar "Virtual bank". I do not think | anybody without a significant technical and financial resources | will be able to pull it off. | | Another use case I can think of are market places like ebay, | Amazon, Aliexpress, etc. Each seller receive a bank account | that they get their payments deposited to, and can be withdrawn | from their branded card. I do not see this being a commercially | viable option for many, because pretty much every country has | free or almost free systems in place to simply transfer money, | and not take the unnecessary burden of issue cards, maintaining | bank accounts, etc. Payoneer used to run a similar program, | with branded cards, custom fee structures, etc, but it | eventually failed as far as I know. | chadash wrote: | curl -X "POST" \ --url | https://api.increase.com/check_transfers \ -H | "Authorization: Bearer ${INCREASE_API_KEY}" \ -H | "Content-Type: application/json" \ -d $'{ | "account_id": "account0", "address_line1": "33 | Liberty Street", "address_city": "New York", | "address_state": "NY", "address_zip": "10045", | "amount": 1000, "message": "Check payment", | "recipient_name": "Ian Crease" }' | | Well it would certainly be nice if I can send a rent check | from my command line! | [deleted] | Shindi wrote: | How is this different than | | Column | | Stripe Treasury | | Treasury Prime | | Unit | | Cross River Bank | | Any BaaS I'm missing? | | ??? | ianhawes wrote: | Synapse FI (https://synapsefi.com) -- They have been around for | awhile. | mousetree wrote: | They use MongoDB for their ledger. Was not fun for us. | alexjplant wrote: | My alma mater Moov Financial [0]. They also have a bunch of | neat OSS libraries on GitHub [1]. | | [0] https://moov.io | | [1] https://github.com/moov-io | [deleted] | spraveenitpro wrote: | Entinel wrote: | I think by the amount of "what is this" questions in this thread | it's pretty clear the messaging is confusing to say the least. | I'm going to pile on because even with the explanations in this | thread I don't really understand what this is. Is this for B2C or | B2B? Is this something I, the average consumer who happens to be | a developer, could use to build my own personal finance tools? | zachthewf wrote: | It's a B2B2C product (sold to businesses that are building | consumer fintech products). There are a bunch of neobank | fintech startups whose offering is "Banking for X", where X is | some segment of the population with specific needs that are not | well served by traditional banks. (Here for example is X = | "Spanish speakers in the US".) [0] | | To build a startup like that, you need to build a product layer | on top of a banking API, which lets you avoid having to write | code that hooks into payment rails, interfaces with credit card | manufacturers, stores credit card numbers, etc. Now you can | focus on the differentiating aspects of your user base instead | of building common banking infra. | | There are a bunch of companies that offer banking APIs as a | service already. The most popular of these is Galileo, a 20 | year old company that was recently acquired by SoFi [1]. The | developer experience of Galileo is absolute trash. I haven't | used any other companies first hand but I've heard they're not | much better. So presumably Increase is trying to provide an | actually good developer experience for devs building banking | products. | | [0] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/seis [1] | https://www.sofi.com/press/sofi-to-acquire-galileo | swyx wrote: | ok so followup question - lets say i buy this message and | want to start "Banking for Medical Students" (well known gap, | they have terrible credit history but are about to be good | credits). | | The precise segment doesnt matter, my question is - how much | of the banking capital requirements do i need to put up? | because a bank isn't just about payment rails and credit | cards, its also about having literal cash in the bank right? | mousetree wrote: | None, you won't be a bank. You'll need to work with another | bank (directly) or via some BaaS that has a pre-existing | relationship with a bank. | | Depending on who "manages the program" you'll probably | still have significant work to do our your side related to | KYC and Compliance. You can offload this to the BaaS if | they have a pre-existing relationship with a sponsoring | bank but then you have very limited latitude to change how | your perform KYC etc. | | For context, when we started, straight out of YC we worked | with a company called Synapse (synapsefi.com) who had a | pre-existing relationship with Evolve (sponsor bank) and | managed our entire program. They were responsible for KYC, | fraud, compliance etc. We basically built an app on top of | their APIs. | | As we grew we needed more control and a direct relationship | with a bank (this also improves the unit economics). We now | manage the entire program and the payment rails part and | banking APIs are maybe only 5% of the work involved (even | within engineering a huge portion of our time is on | fraud/compliance/kyc etc). | [deleted] | zachthewf wrote: | These startups are not actually banks--they will partner | with banks that fulfill those capital requirements. For | example, the Robinhood debit card is issued by Sutton Bank | [0], a 100 year old bank in Ohio that very successfully | provided the backing bank to a bunch of hot new fintech | products. | | So you would have to go through Sutton bank or another | bank, but I think there are enough of these companies now | that there's a fairly tried and true path. If you're | seriously investigating this I can connect you to people | who know more about it than I do. | | [0] https://robinhood.com/us/en/support/articles/robinhood- | debit... and ctrl+f "Sutton" | unethical_ban wrote: | What I imagine is that there is either some kind of | delegation of lending here, _or_ that you get the backing | /start a bank on your own and utilize this service to do | the needful around account servicing more easily | bob1029 wrote: | > how much of the banking capital requirements do i need to | put up? because a bank isn't just about payment rails and | credit cards, its also about having literal cash in the | bank right? | | If you want to start an _actual_ bank, you need a charter | from the FDIC. This is commonly referred to as a De Novo | bank. Also known as "virtually impossible". | zhivota wrote: | Increase will have to partner with banks to provide the | service, so you won't have to be an actual capitalized bank | yourself, and you won't have to go find one. You can see in | the fine print at the bottom of their page: | | "Bank accounts and banking services are provided by | Increase's partner banks, members FDIC." | | The only way they can provide all this functionality is to | do all the hard work of integrating with whatever legacy | junk the partner bank is running (along with all the Visa | stuff, Stripe stuff, and whatever else they are using | here). You could actually do this yourself, and some | fintechs are attempting that, but it's very hard and | expensive due to the PCI-DSS requirements, among other | things. | | I'll be curious to see if they will require their customers | to have PCI-DSS or if they'll be able to tokenize | everything in a way that doesn't require it. When I worked | at Visa the big issue was that handling card data, even | after tokenization, required PCI-DSS, which of course makes | no sense, but the immune systems around the payments | industry takes a long time to change. | mousetree wrote: | Would love to chat with you about your experience with | Galileo. About two years back we decided to NOT go with | Galileo and went with another provider. Absolute trash too | and now we're going to go looking around again - which at our | current scale is not going to be pleasant. Would be great to | trade notes (email in my profile). | zachthewf wrote: | Funnily enough the company I worked at also switched to | Galileo from another provider that was even worse. | | Shooting you an email now. | swyx wrote: | or is it like a Plaid in the sense that you could build a | Robinhood ontop of Plaid... or are you meant to be starting | like an "MVNO Bank"... so many questions | | honestly i dont think its their fault, this is such an alien | space to most of us that we just need more handholding than | normal | dedoussis wrote: | How is this different to Stripe's Banking-as-a-Service product? | fibonacc wrote: | How can Canadian developers use this to gain access to US | markets? | randomcatuser wrote: | I'm a bit confused about why one would want to do this! If you | become your own bank, what are the pieces you have to do | yourself? (I imagine things like fraud?) | dang wrote: | Submitted title was "Increase: Become your own bank". Since | that seems to be a bit confusing and I don't see that text on | the page, I've reverted the title to what the page says. | zhivota wrote: | Yeah it's one of those things where it's not technically | correct, but it's probably correct from the user's point of | view. Customers of Increase will look a lot like a bank to an | end user, but they'll be 2 layers removed from the actual | bank, and everything they do will mention the actual bank's | name on it for FDIC/regulatory purposes. | mousetree wrote: | FWIW, you won't be allowed to advertise yourself as a bank | either. | iancmceachern wrote: | It seems like a great tool for financial fraud, phising | schemes, laundering. What non-nefarious uses would it have? | impulser_ wrote: | You're not actually becoming a bank. They are just providing an | API so you can act like a bank. Your money is still going to be | held by an actual bank. The banking services are still being | provided by an actual bank. | hbcondo714 wrote: | Yeah, accounts are with First Internet Bank or Blue Ridge | Bank: | | https://increase.com/terms | ZephyrBlu wrote: | Really curious who does the design for Increase! Do you guys have | a founding designer? | songeater wrote: | from TOS [0]: | | Increase is not a chartered depository institution. We work with | our partner banks to provide depository and payment services. | When you open an Increase account, you agree to the Increase | Terms of Service below. When you use the Increase service to set | up a deposit account, the account is with First Internet Bank or | Blue Ridge Bank and is subject to your agreement with the Bank | Terms below. Finally, Increase's use of your personal information | is described in the Privacy Policy below. | | [0] https://increase.com/terms | Ozzie_osman wrote: | From reading the comments there are two groups of people. People | who don't know what a banking API is and why you'd need one. And | people who do but don't understand how Increase is different from | existing Banking API / Banking As A Service solutions. I'm in the | latter. | craftkiller wrote: | Doesn't look like they provide an API for any sort of brokerage | services. I have written a lot of sqlite to track my progress | with buying/selling stock options but the biggest pain point for | me is transcribing my transactions into my sqlite database. If | they expand their API to brokerage services then this could be a | killer feature for me. | mauz wrote: | Seems to be similar to Modern Treasury [1]. Are the use-cases | similar between Increase and [1]? | | [1]: https://www.moderntreasury.com/ | mousetree wrote: | Modern Treasury don't offer any card rails. | PKop wrote: | Stripe for neobanks | mousetree wrote: | Stripe are already in the game themselves with Stripe Issuing | and Treasury | alberth wrote: | > "Our API faithfully exposes the data and capabilities of the | Federal Reserve, Visa, The Clearing House, depository networks, | and accounting tools. It's lovingly boring and exceptionally | powerful." | | Two questions: | | 1. How is this different than Open Banking? | | 2. Why is Visa referenced / why isn't Mastercard included? (Is it | because Mastercard owns Finicity, and Open Banking service) | bankapilead wrote: | I led a team building a similar thing for one of the existing big | three bank technology companies. Hope you've got backpressure and | all the compliance work locked-in. Outages and some serious | audits are in your future integrating with those more legacy bank | cores. | | Wish your team all the best! This sort of innovation / | competition is needed in that space. | sv123 wrote: | Looks cool, but having trouble wrapping my head around a | potential use case for this. | chocolatkey wrote: | I have a real-life scenario that applies to my business: we | employee 50+ freelancers ee pay every month. I dread when it | comes time to pay them, because I have to log into multiple | bank account and manually send each transfer using clunky web | UIs. I am just copy-pasting all this data from a spreadsheet | where it's already been verified. If I could automate payments | to a sizeable portion of the freelancers, it would save me a | lot of time and reduce potential for mistakes during data entry | swyx wrote: | ah ok. so this is a workaround of the traditional banks | having crappy UI/APIs? what about using | Stripe/Braintree/Paypal/etc (i know those are not exact | matches, but just enquiring about the general problem space) | chocolatkey wrote: | This is completely different. Stripe/Braintree are ways to | charge customers on their credit/debit card on your | website, completely unwieldy for paying freelancers. You'd | have to have freelancers set up Stripe merchant accounts | and receive card payments, that would be very weird and | broken use case, especially considering Stripe's fees. I | can send a freelancer an ACH transfer for $0, why would I | want to pay 3+%? | | As for PayPal, some freelancer (especially outside US) do | get paid using it, but paypal's fees are outrageous and we | try to get anyone we can on an alternative like zelle, ach | etc. | adventured wrote: | > Stripe/Braintree are ways to charge customers on their | credit/debit card on your website | | Stripe has a banking as a service segment now - | | https://stripe.com/treasury | chocolatkey wrote: | That looks reasonable, having worked with Stripe's APIs | before I know that part would at least be nice. But I am | worried about pricing with the "contact sales". If they | charged per transfer initiated that would be a | dealbreaker. | toomuchtodo wrote: | Have you seen https://www.deel.com? Might be a solution for | this problem. | pen2l wrote: | That, Payoneer (which has a sufficiently extensive API), | and I think Stripe can also handle payouts: | https://stripe.com/connect/marketplaces | | (possibly I'm misreading Stripe marketplaces' offerings, | please correct me if I am) | chocolatkey wrote: | Payoneer is one of the options we use to pay freelancers, | in fact many of them quite like it, but for the | freelancers' sake, I prefer 100% free methods like Zelle | or ACH where possible because you have to pay a fee to | take money out of payoneer you receive. At least it's | better than paypal | toomuchtodo wrote: | Is TransferWise an option? | pen2l wrote: | Zelle takes a considerable percentage cut for non- | personal transactions. | | Do you make use of Payoneer API for payouts? How do you | find it? | chocolatkey wrote: | I use Zelle through the BoA small business account's web | interface, there is no charge. I tried getting Zelle API | access through US Bank but they never replied so I'm | stuck with BoA web. | | Payoneer is really cagey about how you unlock better | features, our account got upgraded to VIP though because | we pay a lot through it. We still use their interface, | maybe I'll figure out how to get their API someday | chocolatkey wrote: | $49/contract per month is just way way too much, sorry. | Some freelancers don't even get paid that much in a month | with the work they are doing. And with the churn we have as | well, at a per contract rate we'd be pouring insane amounts | of money into this solution. And they also aren't open | about what payout payment methods they offer, that is not a | good start. | mousetree wrote: | Is a payroll company not an option? I'm not from the US but | presumably there are companies that can do this for you at a | relatively low cost per employee? | chocolatkey wrote: | These are not employees, they're freelancers from all | around the world. | londons_explore wrote: | It's notable that Monzo (UK fintech bank, but now in many | countries) has a fairly complete but not really advertised API. | Their mobile app uses the same API. | | If you need to know which emoji is most representative of the | shop where you used your card 7 seconds ago, you can get sent | that (and a lot of other data) in a webhook... | ako wrote: | Seems like bbaas, banking backend as a service, solves a | significant need in the world, considering existing alternatives. | For example in Europe there's Mambu that seems to do something | similar. | | Not sure what the exact customer pain is here, could be that | banks were the first to adopt IT and now have a large legacy | where there is little value in rebuilding it with modern stacks, | as it offers little competitive differentiation. | | Or maybe there's a need to quickly bring new banking products to | market, and the backend stuff is so standardized that it's best | to buy it off the shelve. | mousetree wrote: | There are lots of companies that are providing these BaaS in | the US. Stripe, Modern Treasury, Treasury Prime, Lithic, | SynapseFi, Gallileo, I2C come to mind. Probably another 20 | more. | | Then there's of course many CBS providers including the more | modern ones like Mambu. | darraghbuckley wrote: | Thanks @op! Increase employee here: | | We're early days and not quite ready for open sign-ups yet | (sorry, known bug). We'll be more public over the coming weeks | and months. | | We're banking for developers; you can programatically create | accounts, cards, and move money. | | Our users are primarily financial technology companies. | | We're a small team from Stripe, Robinhood, and Visa building the | bank we always wanted. If this sounds interesting to you we're | hiring: jobs@increase.com | | If I can be helpful, I'm at darragh@increase.com. | Ayesh wrote: | Do you consider non-US remote? | darraghbuckley wrote: | Certainly! | mekoka wrote: | _> Our users are primarily financial technology companies. _ | | As a developer, I'd love to have some more information about | the typical problems that inspired Increase's value | proposition. If I was meeting with a financial tech CEO | tomorrow, should I assume that they probably have these | problems or need this service? Are there resources that I could | peruse to learn more about these common problems? | darraghbuckley wrote: | Our users are financial technology companies. They build | things like payroll, loan servicing, business payments, | consumer payments, investment platforms, and neo-banks. | | When we built Stripe, one of the largest points of friction | was getting a banking partner. It took months and only after | signing were we even able to start assessing the technology. | There are _so many_ potential companies that simply don 't | make it past the partnership step. We want to fix that. | | The US needs a bank (holding a bank charter) that's also a | technology company. Increase certainly isn't there yet | (patches welcome: jobs@increase.com) but we already have | integrations with the Federal Reserve, Visa, and The Clearing | House. Our API already serves businesses you know and love. | mousetree wrote: | > The US needs a bank (holding a bank charter) that's also | a technology company. | | Do you have plans on becoming a bank and getting a bank | charter then? I've worked with several payment processors | and BaaS providers that are most definitely not on that | path. (CTO at neo bank). | ahmadss wrote: | do you have anyone on your enterprise BD/sales team? or is it | too early for that type of role? | codegeek wrote: | Did you guys acquire the domain or did the founders always have | it ? | jackflintermann wrote: | (Increase employee) | | We took the approach of starting with an intentionally bad | name (in our case, bnk.dev) and using it until a good domain | became available to purchase for a reasonable price. | | Related: http://www.paulgraham.com/name.html | swyx wrote: | heya! i'm casually interested in the space, and also have been | tracking Column (https://column.com/) | | to a distant observer, you look similar, but i'm sure there are | real differences between you, so I'd love something like a "top | 3 things to note" about Increase vs Column, in a least-getting- | you-in-trouble way as possible - its hard to compare because i | dont know what I don't know. | pbreit wrote: | For one, Column is a bank. | vinay_ys wrote: | This is super important - if you are a chartered/regulated | bank that's functioning currently then whatever you claim | has merit. Otherwise it is just another software project | that's going to struggle to get adoption because they won't | have thought through all the regulatory and compliance | issues. | darraghbuckley wrote: | Yes! We're obviously not the first to see the need! | | I think there are many engineers who are frustrated knowing | the data and capabilities that exist in banking that aren't | exposed programmatically. | | There are at least four (and I'm undoubtedly missing many!) | interesting companies aiming to combine technology and a bank | charter: | | - Luna[0]. | | - M1 Finance[1]. | | - Column[2]. | | - Increase[3]. | | Building a bank involves reading, understanding, and | respecting regulation. It invovles integrating with large | financial networks. It involves rallying a team for a years- | long adventure. Each of these is early days and it'll be a | few years before any of us understands how this super large | and important problem will be solved. | | 0. https://www.americanbanker.com/news/former-square-exec- | leads... | | 1. https://m1.com/blog/bank-and-board | | 2. https://column.com/ | | 3. https://increase.com/ | bun_at_work wrote: | Does this change KYC requirements or similar regulatory | constraints that exist for implementing ACH transactions | directly? | bob1029 wrote: | > Anything that you can achieve with PDFs, presence, and | persistence in a bank branch you can do with our API. | | Not sure how to take this. With a small tweak like "you can | _eventually_ do " I would let it pass without criticism. | | I work with bank cores, imaging, BSA and related middleware on a | daily basis. The scope and complexity of these systems is | incomprehensible to most. Many of our clients don't even try to | think about how fucked up their business is. They prefer to hire | Deloitte and other vendors like us to be stressed about it for | them. | | To give you an idea of how comprehensive a "full" banking API is, | our combined WSDL and XSD references total ~9 megabytes. This is | _before_ codegen. The final reference sources as generated into | the .NET codebase total nearly 20 megabytes. This is just the | types & method signatures. The actual implementations live in an | IBM system manufactured some time during the previous millennium. | | But, none of that really matters. Whatever API method you call | against a specific bank will have behavior that ultimately | depends on a million things specific to them _and the region | within which they operate_. So, its not enough to simply | integrate with this massive API. You also have to understand a | multi-dimensional matrix of regulations, end-customer behaviors, | technological constraints, active geopolitical affairs, et. al. | ktpsns wrote: | Obviously the word " _anything_ that you can achieve ... " in | your quote is an exaggeration. It is quite obvious that fintech | wants to simplify the banking process to basic daily procedures | most of the people need (like money transfer and accounting), | and ignore the rest. It won't be the first FinTech doing so and | it won't be the last. But it is one where "we want to have a | high quality API" is the unique selling point. | sofixa wrote: | Traditional banks have literally decades of legacy to deal with | which drags them down. Many neobanks have shown that it's | possible to provide a better and cheaper service when you start | from scratch. A few examples of features neobanks i use provide | that traditional banks don't have - virtual cards on the fly, | for free; SEPA Instant for free; Open API; smart dynamic | budgeting and expense sharing. | bob1029 wrote: | > legacy to deal with which drags them down | | A non-zero amount of that legacy is due to regulations and | compliance. | | Most of what a bank does is totally invisible to the end | customer. A "neobank" is almost always just a shiny consumer- | oriented facade in front of a grumpy old bank. _Someone_ | still has to follow all of those laws. | sefrost wrote: | What about Monzo or Starling in the UK? What is the grumpy | old bank behind them? | delusional wrote: | > A non-zero amount of that legacy is due to regulations | and compliance. | | Although there's a kernel of truth there, it's far from | accurate. Most of the legacy is due to the assumption of | regulations and compliance. The truth is that most of the | systems are in fact out of compliance, but as long as you | don't touch them the likelihood of a serious audit is | small. The complexity is more about erecting an | impenetrable wall to make the auditor assume it's probably | compliant. | | It's essentially about overwhelming auditors with details | to fatigue them. Not to dissimilar to when lawyers flood | each other with documents in tv shows. | arghwhat wrote: | Conventional banks provide all of the above (including open | banking API) except instant virtual cards here in | Scandinavia, so nothing to do with building from scratch. | Just a matter of priorities and healthy competition. | | The neobanks are all very incremental improvements, and is | largely just packaging. E.g., Lunar being app-only obviously | has a somewhat more modern app than the average bank. | delusional wrote: | I happen to work in a bank in Scandinavia, and you're both | sort of right. We did at one point provide "open banking | APIs" although we only ever approved one partner to use it, | and have since shuttered it. | | The truth of the matter is that banking is horribly | entrenched. Actual business decisions are mostly driven by | arbitrary considerations of which laws to follow that day. | Although we provide a ton of functionality and business | capability, we are still woefully behind on any sort of | compliance measure, not because compliance is hard or | impossible, but because nobody is actually critically | examining the systems. | | The problem for the "neobank" is not one of building | technology to catch up. It's in cultivating an image where | they are seen as systemically critical such that they will | be afforded the same leniency in policing that the | established sector already has. | chadash wrote: | > Accounts are eligible to receive interest on balances. The | interest rate is the Federal Funds Target Rate less 50 basis | points with a floor of 0%. | | Target rate right now is 2.25-2.50%, so i'm guessing that you are | subtracting 50 BP from the lower end, so that's 1.75%. That's | actually pretty good for a bank right now (not the highest, but | certainly on the high _er_ end. | | One thing that's unclear... is this a checking account, savings, | etc.? | rthomas6 wrote: | Is there any service like this for individuals? Specifically, I | want to be able to open and close checking accounts at will with | different card numbers, with different spending limits. The | purpose would be to serve as an envelope system and budgeting | tool. | Shindi wrote: | If you're an enterprising individuals you can "kinda" do this | but it's not easy and definitely 100% a headache. | | Neobanks sometimes use this notion of a virtual bank account. | My understanding is that it's a single FDIC insured account | that they subdivide using their own ledger. | | For cards, you can use Stripe Treasury or Lithic to issue your | own virtual cards and their dev limits are pretty friendly. I | think privacy.com does this as a consumer experience really | well. Note you said `checking accounts at will with different | card numbers`. Depository accounts are a totally different | notion and resource than cards. | | However _should_ you do this? I can 't think of a reason why | you'd want to for your own purposes. The reason fintech is so | annoying is not because banks/tech players don't want you to | have nice things, is that there is a ridiculous amount of | regulatory overhead. | rthomas6 wrote: | > I can't think of a reason why you'd want to for your own | purposes. | | It's quite simple. For argument's sake let's say I am an | individual with limited willpower. Say I budget $200 per | month on restaurants, and I need to stick to this to meet | some other financial goal. How, as someone with limited | willpower, do I enforce this? | | Option 1 is to keep track of and categorize all bank | transactions, either manually or via a third party budgeting | app, and check my "restaurant" balance each time before I | order food. This is unlikely to happen because I am lazy and | assume I have the money. | | Option 2 is to keep a physical envelope of cash that I put | $200 in. When the money runs out, I don't have any to buy | restaurant food. This works, but is very inconvenient. How | can I use Doordash, Venmo a friend, etc with this? | | Option 3 is to have a debit card that only has restaurant | money on it. Now the card simply doesn't work anymore when | I'm out of money. It's effectively the same as the envelope, | but now I can use it online as well. | NavinF wrote: | If you have at least 2 credit cards from the same bank (eg | one card with $20k limit and 5% cashback on restaurants and | another card with $10k limit and 2% cashback on all | purchases), you can call the bank and tell them to move | $19,800 of the credit limit from one card to the other. | That way you can't spend over $200 without using the wrong | card. | | Virtual debit cards are another ubiquitous solution, but | they cost a lot more despite being free. Your option 3 | subsidizes smarter consumers when you pay full price (which | has interchange fees built-in) on everything without | getting any fees returned to you in the form of cashback. | | (One issue with my solution is that a lot of banks let you | spend 2x your credit limit on visa signature and similar | tier cards. In that case you'll have to reduce the limit to | $100) | mousetree wrote: | Try privacy.com. Seems to be built for exactly this use | case (disclosure: have not used it). | | (On a related note, to GP comment, Lithic was actually spun | out of Privacy.com) | sofixa wrote: | What you're describing sounds like what most people refer | to as virtual cards. Three of my banks provide that for | free, even though only two allow setting up a per-card | limit. | Ycombigatorz wrote: ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-09-13 23:00 UTC)