[HN Gopher] Patagonia founder gives away the company ___________________________________________________________________ Patagonia founder gives away the company Author : sharkweek Score : 233 points Date : 2022-09-14 19:45 UTC (3 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com) | beefman wrote: | https://www.patagonia.com/ownership/ | | > The Chouinard family will guide the Patagonia Purpose Trust, | electing and overseeing its leadership. Family members will | continue to sit on Patagonia's board ... The family will also | guide the philanthropic work performed by the Holdfast | Collective. | insane_dreamer wrote: | > "Mr. Chouinard does not own ... a cellphone." An amazing | factoid in an amazing story. | | Major props to Yvon and family for setting an example that few | will follow but many should. | germinalphrase wrote: | I would be a little surprised if the guy doesn't have a body | man with a cellphone on hand all day long. | rufus_foreman wrote: | Pretty good illustration of the concept that no matter how much | wealth you have, it's always the other guy that is rich: | | "Even today, he wears raggedy old clothes, drives a beat up | Subaru and splits his time between modest homes in Ventura and | Jackson, Wyo. Mr. Chouinard does not own a computer or a | cellphone." | | ... | | ""I was in Forbes magazine listed as a billionaire, which really, | really pissed me off," he said. "I don't have $1 billion in the | bank. I don't drive Lexuses."" | | Yeah, raggedy old clothes and a Subaru. Got it. Definitely middle | class. | a4isms wrote: | An irrelevant story about Yvon's climbing days: | | In 1967, he met a young woman named Joy Herron, and they went | climbing together on a new route. The route is named "Jump for | Joy" after her. | | https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105866381/jump-for-joy | ramesh31 wrote: | They literally sell oil. Oil with extra steps, which consume even | more oil. All of Patagonia's profits are _completely_ based on | selling oil to people who load up into a huge SUV or get on a | plane to go consume more oil as they wear their fashionable oil. | | The modern sportswear industry (and fast fashion in general) has | been an absolute catastrophe for the environment, and he | certainly knows it. But yeah, whatever helps you sleep at night. | avalys wrote: | What do you do for a living, exactly? | delecti wrote: | Oil itself isn't the problem. Climate change is about adding | the carbon from fossil fuels to the air. If we could magically | convert all remaining unburned coal/oil to an enormous cube of | polyester, it would more or less immediately put a cap on | global warming. Of course it would also cause worldwide famine, | but my point is that global warming itself isn't a directly | result of the extraction/use of fossil fuels, but specifically | the _burning_ of them. | smileysteve wrote: | 89% of their fabrics are from "preferred materials", 100% of | the down is responsibly sourced, and 100% of their cotton is | grown organically. | | Sportwear is rapidly becoming more responsible, using recycled | polyester, nylon, and spandex | | https://www.patagonia.com/our-footprint | [deleted] | ramesh31 wrote: | >"They sell and market wool" | | As a tiny niche product, sure. But the entire reason | Patagonia became successful in the first place is Polar | Fleece [0], a product that came about as a "cheaper" (that | is, where the true cost is externalized to the whole planet | through emissions) wool alternative that could easily be made | from hydrocarbons. | | >"89% of their fabrics are from "preferred materials", 100% | of the down is responsibly sourced, and 100% of their cotton | is grown organically." | | Meaningless marketing terms. The "responsibly sourced down" | and "organically grown cotton" has nothing to do with their | climate impact. | | Regardless, this isn't about social justice, or saving the | penguins, or fair trade. It's just blind naked hypocrisy for | a company that is 100% dependent on fossil fuels and | petrochemicals to be profitable somehow acting like they are | responsible environmental stewards. | | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_fleece | ceejayoz wrote: | This post is the living embodiment of | https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society- | som.... | snowwrestler wrote: | Polyester fleece did not get popular because it was cheaper | than wool, in fact it was quite a bit more expensive when | introduced. It gained popularity because it was lighter, | far more water-resistant, and did not shrink when washed. | potamic wrote: | > they really embody this notion that every billionaire is a | policy failure. | | If only more people realised this. Instead we do the opposite and | worship the system which make them happen. | | Very inspiring overall. I've always heard good things about the | company but never knew of the founder. There's something about | seeing one carry such dignified ideals throughout their life, | without wavering to societal expectations, that is so admirable. | randyrand wrote: | Having a billion pieces of paper does not matter. Literally | paper. Digits on a computer. The supply of this paper is not | even fixed. | | It only matters when billionaires convert that paper into food, | housing, jets, etc, for themselves does it actually affect | anyone. | | But, by a huge margin, the largest expense billionaires have is | investment in other people and companies. | | If billionaires squandered their wealth on short term self | indulgence that would be one thing, but they don't. They | typically give it all away. | | I don't see the big policy failure here, or why that is a | currently a problem that needs solving. | [deleted] | dumpsterlid wrote: | _spits out drink_ | | What universe do you live in??? | quickthrower2 wrote: | Look up regulatory capture for something that might change | your mind about that. | | Also the money they "give away" is given to their next | generation typically not the public. Bill Gates would be the | exception. | | Opting out of fiat money (crypto is fiat in disguise) means | living a rambo-like life of basic survival. Therefore a | billion dollars sure means something. Not just paper. | mbesto wrote: | > It only matters when billionaires convert that paper into | food, housing, jets, etc, for themselves does it actually | affect anyone. | | Fair point. One thing noting is that overall asset value | isn't always directly converted to product/services but | rather it's used as leverage. Sometimes this leverage is | intangible ("don't f with me, I'm going to sue you"), other | times it's very REAL tangible leverage - see Peter Thiel and | Gawker. | alistairSH wrote: | _They typically give it all away._ | | They do? The Kennedys, Rockefellers, etc certainly haven't. | Those families have been massively wealthy for several | generations. | svnt wrote: | This is a presentation of money that assumes there is no | problem with other people not having that money. | | The major issue is systemic instability and unnecessary | poverty. | | It is popular to presume that everything is not zero sum, but | this is not the case. | | I don't see any good reason we should allow excessive | potential energy to become the property of a class of people | who want nothing more than excessive potential energy. | Aunche wrote: | Without billionaires, the net result wouldn't be that their | money would be distributed among the populace. The result | would be that this wealth simply wouldn't exist at all. | This is why the Soviet Union stagnated after they reached a | certain standard of living. There is no incentive to take | on risk when you aren't entitled to a proportional reward. | peyton wrote: | What's your proposed fix? Like if I create the next Star | Wars, am I not "allowed" excessive "potential energy" | somehow? How would that even work? | svnt wrote: | This idea that a single person creates Star Wars is one | gap in understanding of a healthy system. A person does | not exist in my or your present state or create anything | but for the work of millions if not billions of other | people. | | The solution has been repeatedly demonstrated and isn't | complicated. The benefits should accrue to the system | that creates them in a balanced way. Limits on the return | of capital, implemented as either voluntary donation or | taxes and progressive income taxes. | | People scoff at taxes vs representation but right now, | today, they can avoid those taxes by donating that money. | isleyaardvark wrote: | The choice of "Star Wars" as an example is pretty ironic. | There has been so much discussion about how Star Wars was | a result of the work of so many people. And how George | Lucas, who would be the candidate for "single person", | when left to his own devices made worse quality Star Wars | films. | | In particular, there was: - Marcia Lucas, credited for | "saving Star Wars in the editing" - John Williams | | Not to mention all the people working on the special | effects, the sound designer Ben Burtt, the list goes on. | | The reality is that a "single person" doesn't create | things like that. The "visionary/great man" ideal is just | good PR. | criddell wrote: | The proposed fix usually amounts to some type of wealth | and estate taxes. | makomk wrote: | There is not some fixed amount of money in the world, | though, and there hasn't been since at least the point the | world abandoned the gold standard. We don't have to worry | about someone sitting on all the money and stopping the | economic activity that it would enable by doing so - | governments and banks can literally create money out of | thin air as necessary to keep the economy supplied with | cash. The big limiting factor in how well off ordinary | workers can be is the capacity of the actual, real economy | of factories and stores to supply them with goods and | services. That's why it's not a bad thing that people found | successful businesses which are worth a large amount of | money: by doing so they are, in general, directly making | everyone better off by coming up with better, more | efficient or higher quality ways of satisfying their needs. | | Sure, they didn't do it alone, they had employees and the | whole rest of society, but all those workers and the rest | of society was there before and yet the business was not. | Successful business enterprises don't just instantaneously | spontaneously assemble because the world is capable of | supporting them, they have to be created and if they cease | to exist the world is worse off even though all the workers | and buildings and so on still exist. (Also, the parts of | society that enable successful businesses - and even basics | like food and energy - are much more heavily made up of | other businesses than I think people appreciate.) | simonh wrote: | This is the point. What's important is how ownership and | management of economic production is allocated. Who runs | businesses? In capitalism they are largely owned and | managed by the people that built those businesses. In | communism and nationalised industries they are owned and | managed by a government bureaucracy. In this case the | owner transferred that control to a charitable trust. | | Personally I believe each of these can have advantages in | various situations. Some critical shared infrastructure | and services I think do belong with government. Defence, | healthcare, emergency services, perhaps some utilities. | Charitable trusts have a place. But I also believe | private citizens that demonstrate the ability to build | and run businesses also have a place, a big place in the | system. Private capital investment is a massive and | highly productive and efficient force for economic good. | Typical billionaires don't spend billions on themselves. | Millions yes, but most of those billions exist as shares | that represent control of productive businesses that | provide goods, services and jobs. If they spent it all on | themselves they wouldn't be billionaires for very long. | | I don't think it's generally in the public interest or | beneficial to society to confiscate businesses from their | owners, and what? Give it to who? There is a legitimate | concern that such control can lead to negative effects | like exercise consumption or political influence, but the | way you deal with that is to address those problems | directly. | hahaxdxd123 wrote: | The only issue with wealth/income inequality in countries | like America is that some goods are artificially | constrained or positional (mostly housing). | | A mediocre salary of $40,000 is enough to buy so many goods | from competitive markets (phones, cars, anything you can | get off Amazon/AliExpress). This becomes very apparent when | you go to lesser developed countries. | | The major costs in people's lives do not come from the | billionaire class. If you tax them into oblivion and give | that money away, it will be soaked up by housing anyway | (look how sharply housing costs have risen after the growth | in real income the past 2 years). | bumby wrote: | > _The major issue is systemic instability and unnecessary | poverty._ | | Jon Stewart once put it in a different frame: he called | better policy "revolution insurance". At least that frames | it in a way as to what the rich have to gain instead of | solely focusing it on what they have to lose. | jollybean wrote: | It's not paper or digits it's a social contract i.e. 'power'. | layer8 wrote: | Those billions give them a lot of power and influence. | insane_dreamer wrote: | > largest expense billionaires have is investment in other | people and companies | | that's not an expense, but an investment, on which they | (usually) get a return, increasing their net worth | | > if billionaires squandered their wealth on short term self | indulgence that would be one thing, but they don't | | they do, just not enough to make a dent in their wealth | because once it's grown so large, it's hard to spend it | faster than its growth. If you have $1B growing at a modest | 6% / year, that's $60M / year. | | > They typically give it all away. | | they don't (unless by "all" you mean "a small percentage"). | Even the few who have pledged to give 50% away in their | lifetime have not (since their fortune has continued to | grow). There are exceptions of course (and MacKenzie Scott | will probably be one of them). | micromacrofoot wrote: | > They typically give it all away. | | _If_ they give it away (many don 't) they specifically | choose where it goes, and often it's some legacy BS, like | overpaying to get their name on a university library. | Alternatively that money ends up going to their children and | it stays in the family for generations. | | Billionaires will not save us. | thebooktocome wrote: | > They typically give it all away. | | To their children, perhaps? Or to a non-profit they control, | for tax reasons? Sure. | | But in general, I believe, actual philanthropy is a | relatively small part of the typical billionaire's portfolio. | OGWhales wrote: | Money is a representation of resources, those with more money | can control more resources. I think it is undeniably a | problem for any individual to have control over such a large | portion of resources. | | All of this wealth they have accumulated gives them immense | power and control over our society. Billionaires largely use | their wealth to create even more wealth for themselves or to | influence people, they don't "give it all away". | | Your framing is _extremely_ disingenuous. | [deleted] | sokoloff wrote: | They created a company that people willingly buy over $1 | billion of product from every year. Why shouldn't creating that | much value in the world result in the owners collectively | benefiting? If that happens to be a million different people | each having a $1000 stake or 1 family having a $1B stake, I | don't have a problem thinking that either is a valid outcome. | | IMO, we should look at the value created and celebrate that | rather than jealously fret over the concentration of the number | of people who own it. | | To be clear: I think what they did is admirable on both the | building and the recent transaction. I respect them greatly for | both parts. | jacknews wrote: | But one person did not create all the value. | | And it's not even all the employees of this single company | who created it. The entire structure of society, technology, | law and order, transport infrastructure, etc, etc, enabled | such a concentration of wealth. | | It's good to see when beneficiaries realise it's not really | 'their' money at all. | nine_k wrote: | You speak as if almost all these societal benefits are not | paid for by willful trading, and by taxes. | | Did this particular billionaire evade taxes? used tons of | governmental subsidies, or government-granted monopolies? | Does this company look like it did not pay its fair share | back? | djbebs wrote: | I dont believe Patagonia uses slave labor in their | factories | sokoloff wrote: | Indeed, they did not create all that value alone. They also | provided stable jobs for many thousands of employees along | the way. We should also celebrate that and I was remiss to | not mention it originally. | smileysteve wrote: | And in the context | | Created a billion dollar company that people buy from to | enjoy the outdoors (at least some of the time for a large | portion of the customers)(or at least signal) | criddell wrote: | > a million different people each having a $1000 stake or 1 | family having a $1B stake | | Money is power. Do you see no difference in a million people | have a little power vs one family having enormous power? | marcusverus wrote: | If you want to reduce the influence of money on politics, | you're not going to achieve that by punishing billionaires, | or by destroying the incentive structure that allows them | to exist. If you want to reduce the influence of money in | politics, you'll have to understand the _specific | mechanisms_ that create said influence, and address them by | law. | | Wealth is good. People acquire wealth by adding value. We | want to incentivize people to add value. Of course, the | "billionaires shouldn't exist" crowd understand little and | less, and would happily have us destroy this system of | incentives _without even achieving their stated goals_ , | because they, much like the "defund police" crowd, are more | interested in appearing virtuous than in actually solving | problems. | kasey_junk wrote: | > Wealth is good. People acquire wealth by adding value. | | Those are axioms presented without evidence. It's trivial | to find counter examples. | | I'm no radical redistributionist but the idea that wealth | in and of itself shows added value is clearly wrong. | orwin wrote: | Money is just an arbitrary mean of distributing | production. In a capitalist society (and at a lesser | extent in a mercantile one too), having a lot of | "things", in this case money and capital: we can call | wealth, is power (this has implication for anarchist | beliefs). | | Democracy and in a limited way, socialism (pensions for | the elderly, healthcare, subsidized public | transportation, i know this is not the original meaning, | but for this its good enough) counterbalance the power | gap between wealthy people and non-wealthy people, but | clearly in the western world (at least in my country), | the counterbalance is weaker and weaker. | | I don't think a random millionaire like Eric Finman | should have more power than a random citizen, and yet he | have. | | I don't think the "billionaire shouldn't exist" crowd | actually exist. But i'm part of the "billionaires | shouldn't have this much power" crowd, since it feels | like in my country, they own the press, the executive and | 40% of the legislative power. The judiciary power is the | only one that might be a bit free from influence, but i'm | not certain. | nine_k wrote: | OTOH concentration of capital makes companies like Tesla | and SpaceX possible. It also makes large, self-sustaining | charities possible. | sokoloff wrote: | Of course I see a difference between those two; I just | don't think it's a problem. Over many decades, many | millions of people transferred some of their power to | Patagonia as a result of their belief that they'd rather | have the Patagonia product than the amount of power that | money represented. Millions were made better off, by their | own value function. | spywaregorilla wrote: | > Why shouldn't creating that much value in the world result | in the owners collectively benefiting? | | One can benefit without being a billionaire. | avalys wrote: | What do you think "being a billionaire" means? | | If you start and retain ownership of a company that is one | worth day a billion dollars, you're a billionaire. | | That doesn't mean you have a billion dollars in cash. It | doesn't mean you have a billion dollars in hard assets. It | means you built a functioning organization that is | performing some valuable service in society, and some | accountant has associated some value to that entire | organization of more than $1,000,000,000. | | At what point do you think founders should be punished for | that accomplishment by having some of their ownership stake | taken away from them? | spywaregorilla wrote: | > At what point do you think founders should be punished | for that accomplishment by having some of their ownership | stake taken away from them? | | When they sell it for a billion dollars. | ipaddr wrote: | They don't sell it now they borrow money against the | value of shares and get to keep the stock, not pay taxes | because it is not income. Your plan would not work. No | plan like this could work... | avalys wrote: | Sure, that would be a reasonable position, but most | people the media characterizes as "billionaires" have not | actually sold their company for a billion dollars. This | is a fundamental misconception. | | These listings of "net worth", etc. all include the | nominal market value of their remaining ownership of | whatever company they founded. | | Jeff Bezos has a "net worth" of $160B. That's not because | he sold Amazon for $160B. It's because Amazon is worth | $2T and he still owns 8% of it. | | At what point would you suggest the government should | have taken away that 8% ownership so he would not become | a billionaire? | spywaregorilla wrote: | > At what point would you suggest the government should | have taken away that 8% ownership so he would not become | a billionaire? | | I'm not suggesting that. | | It's ok if people are billionaires, if defined by having | large holdings that, if liquidated, would shrink to non | billionaire scales to give back to society. | kasey_junk wrote: | Those billionaires don't sell their shares but they do | take extremely low interest loans that are non-taxed | against those shares kicking their tax obligations into | future generations while using liquidity to live as if | they've sold the shares. | | So I'd suggest the tax code be amended to account for | that. | avalys wrote: | That's also a reasonable suggestion. It wouldn't stop | them from becoming billionaires. The GP suggested "every | billionaire is a policy failure". What's the policy that | prevents this failure? | smaddox wrote: | Should we cap the benefit at some particular monetary | value? Wouldn't that disincentivize building companies past | a certain point of success? Is that really what we want? | LordDragonfang wrote: | To answer the last two questions, yes. The expectation | for companies to continue to grow no matter what, even | when they're already massively profitable, is one of the | biggest issues with modern capitalism. It's how you get | the world's most profitable (non-financial) company | switching its focus to nickel-and-diming its customers | for services because it's run out of new human beings to | sell iPhones to, and how you get every video game company | switching to scummy fomo and gambling to maximize | shareholder revenue instead of mindshare, and how you get | every company jumping over themselves to sell your data | even if you're already paying for the product. Companies | should be able to get to the point where leaving money on | the table for the good of their customers, and society, | is a valid move. | spywaregorilla wrote: | I think we should scale income tax based on wealth | personally | layer8 wrote: | That will just lead people to outsource their wealth by | whatever means, so that it doesn't formally count as | their wealth anymore, but they effectively still control | it. | spywaregorilla wrote: | Then I hope we can couple it with a well funded IRS. | | In theory this would be difficult to do unlike the games | that occur now because you don't merely need to suggest | that you're not earning the income. You can't give it to | a family member or it gets it with a hefty gift tax. You | can't stuff it into a shell corp because you still own | the shell corp. You could donate it to a charity which | you control which is a thing that happens now. | layer8 wrote: | Or maybe you don't receive it in the form of whatever | formally counts as wealth in the first place. | spywaregorilla wrote: | Our tax law definitions of fair market value are | sufficient that I think this is a non critical issue. | sokoloff wrote: | You don't think that before the Constitutional Amendment | to allow taxation of wealth is ratified that there will | be 1000s of CPAs and attorneys looking for loopholes? | | GRATs and IDGTs will look like quaint children's toys | compared to the schemes invented to receive the benefit | without formally having $10^9 of net worth. | layer8 wrote: | Looking at many of the big companies, that doesn't seem | like a particularly bad idea. | [deleted] | bergenty wrote: | I don't think so. The very rich can really try things and build | industries that we wouldn't be able to do otherwise. Elon musk | wouldn't have been able to do anything he did without the money | from PayPal. Same thing with the Rockefellers and the Hearsts | in the early 20th century. | smt88 wrote: | Wielding that amount of money/power is most often used for | evil. Even if it were only used for good, it should be | democratically controlled. | | It's nice that Bill Gates uses his billions for tackling | diseases, but he shouldn't be able to decide the fates of | millions of people unilaterally. He's an individual wielding | nation-scale power, and that's dangerous for everyone else. | | The same is true for Musk, and it's especially true for the | billionaires who are distorting our democracy (Thiel, | Bankman-Fried, Bloomberg, Koch, Hastings, etc.) | megaman821 wrote: | What is the alternative here? The majority of the | governments discretionary money is allocated toward the | military. Should Bill Gates and Elon Musk being putting | half their money to developing better jets and missiles? I | think it is much better than their money goes to curing | diseases, environmental causes, electric cars, and space. A | few billionaires choosing to do nothing over than passing | it down to children is a small price to pay. | bergenty wrote: | No, we should have billionaires like in my comment above | but it shouldn't be easy to pass all of that to the next | generation. Inheritance should be reasonably taxed and if | the next generation has the chops to become a billionaire | again then they are worthy of it and will actually | probably contribute to rapid progress. | warkdarrior wrote: | So your suggestion is to have governments collect more | inheritance taxes on a billionaire's estate. Then those | taxes will be used for military purposes, no? | mikkergp wrote: | I don't know the way around this, but I do think it's good | that power is not centralized in one governmental | structure, even if that structure is Democratic, and I also | think it's good that there are a diverse set of | philosophies determining how philanthropy should happen. | | I don't know that I love the idea of billionaires being the | solution to those two problems, but I do think that some | part of our resiliency as a nation is because the | government doesn't have total control over those things. | | Not to mention the obvious conundrum that this may be great | when the party you support is in power but not so great | when they're not. | ryan93 wrote: | They are not a "solution" they are private citizens | engaging in activities that are not if your business. | kornhole wrote: | Both Gates and Buffet promised to give away all their | money, but they have only become richer. Gates uses his | philanthropic trust to influence decisions that enrich his | investments while convincing people he is doing it for | good. How long are we supposed to wait for these guys to | actually give away that money, or was it just a lie? | smt88 wrote: | Giving away money is a form of undemocratic power, too. A | billionaire recently gave away all of his money to the | Republican Party in the US, for example. | | Even if Gates gives his money to ostensibly non-political | organizations, he's still deciding how an enormous amount | of power is transferred. | | Even Steve Jobs' widow, who is giving small amounts of | hundreds of organizations, is reshaping society according | to her own design. While I'm aligned with her values for | the most part, it is still terrifying to think about all | the Powell-Jobs' who have billions that they are spending | on things that harm us all. | anigbrowl wrote: | Maybe needing to be vastly rich to to cool things is the | actual problem? Suppose there were higher levels of general | financial security such that people could take more risks. | Open source software generates huge positive externalities | without fairy godparents. | bergenty wrote: | You just can't achieve really big things with a medium | amount of money. You can have the government do it but you | never really see that much innovation. There's a reason you | don't see a huge amount of innovation coming out of Europe. | sophacles wrote: | Funny you say this on the internet, an innovative (at the | time, now it's just taken for granted) communications | network funded by the US government for it's first | decade. On that network you are using a technology | (http/html) that was inveted at CERN (a large government | funded research institute) in Europe. | | These two things together have widely been credited with | changing the world. | isleyaardvark wrote: | I couldn't help thinking about the space race, myself. | That was a puzzling assertion. | svnt wrote: | We have no idea what innovation might have come because | it was overrun by earlier deliberately monopolistic | efforts driven by the aggressive and arguably unnecessary | consumption of marginal human lives. | | Just because the fastest way of building something can | win doesn't mean we should do it that way. In fact, we | almost always shouldn't do it that way, upon inspection. | toomuchtodo wrote: | But in return, everyone has a decent quality of life. In | America, the innovation comes at the cost of grinding | everyone not wealthy till death. | | Just be upfront that's the trade off for "innovation." | The economic environment that allows for such enormous | wealth aggregation comes at a cost. | [deleted] | bergenty wrote: | Yeah I'm in the camp where I want to see rapid progress | above a decent quality of life for everyone. I feel like | we're rapidly approaching a point where technology can | realistically solve all of our basic problems and want to | get there as quickly as possible even if it means pain in | the short term (probably our lifetimes). Obviously not | everyone will agree with me but in the US even a grinding | life isn't all that bad relatively. You won't go hungry, | if you're not drug addled you'll rarely be on the streets | for very long, if you have a mental condition or | disability you get money from the government, minimum | wage jobs are very, very easy to get, we have a problem | with cops but on the whole our justice system actually | lets anyone get justice etc. | svnt wrote: | I am really confused. Could you provide some data to back | up your position that basically nothing is a big problem | unless you are "drug addled"? How does one become "drug | addled" if nothing is a problem? | | I would be more convinced if you could also link to | studies showing how early family life and local history | have no impact on developmental brain processes and don't | create culture traps. | sneak wrote: | That's a false dichotomy. The percentage of people with | bad quality of life is about the same in both places (for | westernized Europe) and much worse for eastern Europe. | wizofaus wrote: | Officially the poverty rate is actually somewhat lower in | the US than most countries in Europe. But it seems | unlikely it's measured the same way, or that it | necessarily translates to more people being unable to | access basic services (health, housing, power etc.). | bombcar wrote: | No amount of general financial security would get me what I | need to start a company that can land rockets. | | Even if I can get the group of people I need for free | (because all their expenses are paid) I still need land, | materials, etc. | avalys wrote: | Do you realize that your statement is logically equivalent to: | | "Every person who ever created a successful company and | retained ownership of a lot of it is a policy failure". | | Would you support that statement? | ChadNauseam wrote: | I don't get the hate for billionaires, but the two statements | are not logically equivalent. A statement implied by the GP | comment would be: | | "Every person who ever created a successful company and | retained ownership of a lot of it, causing them to become a | billionaire, is a policy failure". | | Presumably the GP only has a problem with that process when | it results in someone becoming a billionaire. My guess is | that they think people will still found successful companies | even if it doesn't result in billionaires, or that the | benefits from successful companies will come about some other | way. | deltree7 wrote: | adaisadais wrote: | Does anyone know of any companies where this strategy has worked? | | Obvs lesser of the evils but the fear is that, at some point, the | family or the fund, gets too far removed from the mission / | founder (as is common with many companies) and ultimately chooses | profits > environment. | ddkto wrote: | Yes - I work at Arup (https://www.arup.com/), a large | engineering design and consultancy firm. The founder (Ove Arup) | and original 7 partners "sold" their shares to a trust in the | 60s or 70s (for something like 1 GBP, so they were effectively | donated). The main difference between Arup and Patagonia seems | to be that the beneficiaries of the Arup trust are Arup | employees, while the Patagonia trust has other aims. | | Ove Arup had a strong philosophy of design and how the business | ought to be run, and the trust was set up to allow that view to | continue to drive how we work. (https://www.arup.com/-/media/ar | up/files/publications/k/ove-a...) | | I worked at a smaller firm previously that had a very similar | ethos to Arup, but the original shareholders sold to a publicly | held firm and it evaporated in short order. | | The board that manages the trusts is mostly made up of folks | who have spent much of their career in the firm, which helps to | keep the trust from drifting too far from the mission. | Obviously, there are changes with time, but we can make these | changes for reasons other than next quarter's financials. | | (ps, if anyone is curious to see this from the inside, I am | hiring devs! My burning need is C++ devs, but we are also | hiring for skills all across the tech spectrum) | csw-001 wrote: | Hershey (all profits go to boys boarding school) is a case in | point - but the argument there is actually the exact opposite - | that dead hand control is keeping the mission from shifting to | be more inclusive. | tinalumfoil wrote: | https://archive.ph/HoLPC | Reubend wrote: | What a bold move! I hope it works well for them. This will | probably be very positive for his mission. | celestialcheese wrote: | Here's the note from Yvon https://www.patagonia.com/ownership/ | | One of the most interesting parts of this is the choice to make | Holdfast a C4. They really wanted to make this a political | organization, and were willing to forgo a staggering amount of | tax savings - in fact, $17m in tax donating away a $3b asset. | Probably the least effective estate planning from a raw $ | perspective in history. | | Major props to the family for doing this - this is now the | definition of "putting your money where your mouth is", and I | hope this model is a success and serves as a template for others | to follow. | hammock wrote: | Thanks for sharing the actual letter. Contrary to what the New | York Times report (OP) would have you believe, Yvon's note | doesn't say anything about climate change. Rather, it | emphasizes "the environmental crisis," "defending nature," "the | health and vitality of the natural world," and the Earth's | finite resources. | | There is so much more to environmental conservation than just | "climate change," and Patagonia has done much more around e.g. | removing dams, minimizing PFCs in their products, recycling and | increasing longevity of materials, and other actions that | protect air, land, forests, rivers and oceans, and which | encourage sustainable energy production. | | Dear NYT and fellow readers, please don't throw this diversely | interested company into some politically expedient climate | change bucket. Their view on the environment is so much more. | test098 wrote: | Quite literally references climate change in the third | sentence of the letter? | | > "As we began to witness the extent of global warming and | ecological destruction, and our own contribution to it, | Patagonia committed to using our company to change the way | business was done." | exysle wrote: | I like how "global warming" became "climate change." My | favorite trick of the mind. | orwin wrote: | I dislike "climate change" too, because it carries the idea | that we can change it back. I think "global warming" was | fine, but if i had to pick something, it would be "climate | drift" i think. | edgyquant wrote: | I really like climate drift | e9 wrote: | I disagree. Climate always changes. Constantly. Warming | is just one part of the climate change. Many other things | change too so climate change is a lot broader term for | this. | cma wrote: | Read it again, it does mention climate change. Reflexive | ctrl-f won't work because it words it: "global warming." It's | in the very first paragraph: | | > As we began to witness the extent of global warming and | ecological destruction, and our own contribution to it, | Patagonia committed to using our company to change the way | business was done. | | The New York Times didn't slip this in to mislead everyone. | subsubzero wrote: | Despite some of my issues with the company, they have a few | really cool environmentally friendly programs. The "worn | well" program is incredible, basically if you have a piece of | patagonia clothing and return it through that program, they | clean it up or recycle it and you get a free credit towards | anything patagonia sells. | | For kids clothes this is a boon, I would buy my daughter a | patagonia jacket from the patagonia outlet at 40% off, she | grows out if it and I trade it in for a new jacket and get | $20-$30 off of the new jacket. Her old jacket gets cleaned | and sold to some other kid who can use it(they have a worn | well portal where you can buy used gear), great for peoples | pocketbooks, great for the environment - win all around. | bmj wrote: | Yeah, I don't agree with 100% of their political positions | (though, to be fair, it is rare that I agree with 100% of | anyone's political positions, including my own), but they | are really trying to change the way people consume their | products. And, many of their products are truly built to | last. I have two jackets (one insulated, one a fleece) that | are 15+ years old and have been dragged through the dirt, | mud, rain, and snow all over the U.S. | soperj wrote: | > get $20-$30 off of the new jacket | | would you also get $20-30 off of a used jacket? | hammock wrote: | Yes "If you have an old Patagonia item that is just | sitting around, we'll give you credit towards your next | purchase on a used or new garment." | https://wornwear.patagonia.com/ | ycta20220914230 wrote: | Levi's has the same kind of thing for secondhand and | vintage denim jeans and jackets: | https://www.secondhand.levi.com/ | xmonkee wrote: | That's interesting, I wouldn't have made the distinction. I'm | not even sure there is a distinction (climate change is by | far the greatest threat to the environment). What are your | personal views on climate change, if you don't mind me | asking? | oliwary wrote: | Not OP, but I think there are very important environmental | impacts that are not related to climate change. Take, for | example, plastic in the sea - clearly a big issue for the | environment, but addressing climate change will not impact | this at all. | | Other examples include destruction of habitats, NO2 in the | air, dumping waste in nature and rivers, lead that gets | into nature etc. | snowwrestler wrote: | 501c3 organizations have to be careful about the language they | use when commenting on any government policy, even if they stay | out of elections. It's just hard to be overtly opinionated | about things as a c3. The Sierra Club found this out the hard | way when fighting a dam across the Grand Canyon. They converted | to a c4 as well back then (well, the IRS forced them to). | gowld wrote: | jaquer_1 wrote: | nikolay wrote: | In the past 15+ years, I've never bought a piece of clothing, | even the so-called "performance wear", that's not made from | natural fibers - such as cotton, wool, linen. I am not sure about | bamboo fibers - they are heavily processed and mostly in | countries with less control. Looking into how much junk the dryer | collects after drying plastic wear is enough for a person with a | brain to stop buying those unhealthy and not eco-friendly | clothes! All the microplastics goes into the environment - | locally or deep in nature - and includes your lungs and digestive | tract. Wearing plastic clothes at home is the worst - there are | enough studies showing you inhale the plastic particles, and they | start corrupting your health slowly but surely! The so called | "fleece" to me is horrific comparable only to glitter! I can't | believe that this is the type of material most kids love, and we | make sure their lungs are full of it from an early age! Even | scarier is the new trend of recycled plastics used for stuff that | touches your skin or stays in your home! Who guarantees that the | plastics are not containing micro toxins such as heavy metals, or | compounds that could be released in time?! I am not hijacking the | topic - brands such as Patagonia and Prana should be avoided, not | glorified! | switch007 wrote: | Spot on. This should be higher. | | I feel crazy sometimes explaining to people that despite all | the buzzwords, it's still just plastic and not great for you. | | When I visited the US I went to some very big outdoor stores | and their range of clothing made from cotton and other natural | fibres was absolutely tiny. Such a shame. (Just as bad at home | to be fair) | nluken wrote: | > "What makes capitalism so successful is that there's motivation | to succeed," said Ted Clark, executive director of the | Northeastern University Center for Family Business. "If you take | all the financial incentives away, the family will have | essentially no more interest in it except a longing for the good | old days." | | Pretty telling that a business school administrator has no | concept of being motivated by anything other than pure profit. | Always a depressing wake up call to remember that these kinds of | people exist and that people actually take anything they have to | say seriously. | alistairSH wrote: | And the statement is based on a falsehood... the two adult | children remain on the payroll. Sure, they aren't getting a | slice of the profits, but they do have a financial interest, at | least enough to keep their jobs. | mountainriver wrote: | Yeah what makes capitalism successful is that you will starve | unless you work hard. | | Once you have a certain level of money it becomes much less of | a motivator for most people. | MisterBastahrd wrote: | Starving people are not a feature of a successful system. | | Capitalism does not reward hard work. Smart work, maybe, but | not hard work. | jay_kyburz wrote: | Capitalism is designed to get people to work their fair | share. | | It's Democracy that supposed to prevent starving people. | (And crime, and that people are educated, and healthy) | sophacles wrote: | Capitalism is designed so that a relatively few leeches | can skim value off the work of others. | MisterBastahrd wrote: | Capitalism is designed to allow the ownership class to | exploit the labor of the masses. | ChadNauseam wrote: | Capitalism is designed to get people who want each | other's stuff to trade with each other | melenaboija wrote: | Capitalism is designed that you better have luck the day | you are born | brianwski wrote: | > Capitalism does not reward hard work. Smart work, maybe, | but not hard work. | | I'd say a person successful/rewarded in a capitalistic | society (defined by accruing more wealth than they started | with and not just spending down some large family | inheritance they were born into) probably has some | combination of: luck, smart (intelligent) decisions, hard | word, probably has a good "setup" going into the working | world like parents didn't abuse them growing up and at | least helped pay for their education, etc. Maybe that last | one is just a subset of luck, we certainly do not choose | our parents. | | Sure, you can be missing one of the above list and do Ok, | but probably not two. Statistically a smart, hard working | person who had the world's crappiest upbringing probably | won't be that successful compared with somebody who had all | three going for them. But if you look at 20 "success | stories" it is extremely rare the person didn't work hard. | I think it's an important component of being rewarded in | capitalism. It does a disservice to people to say "slacking | off or working hard results in identical outcomes". | | To support at least half of your point, you cannot be | stupid and work hard and be successful. But a smart person | who works hard will most likely do better than a smart | person who doesn't work hard. | LordDragonfang wrote: | >you cannot be stupid and work hard and be successful. | | Unless you are born into wealth, of course. One of your | three/four criteria. Lots of examples of people grifting | and grinding to fail upwards who have no special talent | or intelligence of their own. Some are very powerful, | even. | svnt wrote: | Unless you just enjoy the process of acquisition. | | I've seen people shake and twitch with existential rage | during negotiations that would result in their net worth | possible going from ten figures to a marginally higher ten | figures, and the same for the next order of magnitude. They | were made either way, and they acted as though their life was | at risk. | | It is nothing but a greed impulse that most of us were taught | to overcome during early childhood, but we give it license | and credibility as some ultimate good. | Ferrotin wrote: | There is a guy on the other side of that transaction who | would capture that surplus value. | boplicity wrote: | Patagonia mostly sells fossil fuel based products (polyester, | etc). The idea of reserving all profits from such a company | towards fighting climate change just makes sense to me. | | We live in a fossil fuel based economy; the profit from fossil | fuel based companies _should_ be reinvested towards transitioning | away from fossil fuels. This just makes sense. | | I doubt more companies will follow suit, but if they do, that | would be a sign of hope for the world. (Imagine, for example, if | all the major oil extraction companies dedicated most of their | profits to genuinely fighting climate change.) | | edit: I've never gotten downvotes so quickly on a post. I don't | mind downvotes, but would appreciate a thoughtful reply in | response. Thank you. :) | exabrial wrote: | Thousands of clothing items are an insignificant usage of oil; | you are emptying a swimming pool into the ocean in South Africa | and looking for sea level rise in Japan. Focusing on that | misses core problems, but it does make good marketing and | companies _exploit the hell out of that_ to see products. | Spoken in plain language: It wouldn't make a difference even if | all of Patagonia's clothes were made from bamboo. This is the | simple science of the situation, yet people _vacuum_ this | greenwashing marketing BS up like hotcakes. | | Curbing emissions from power generation is the #1 most | effective way to reduce c02 and we have the answers right now: | Nuclear, Wind, Solar, and battery storage. | | A few thousand jackets are a waste of time and is detrimental | to causes that actually matter. | PartiallyTyped wrote: | > and battery storage. | | A note for all who might take issue with battery storage as | too expensive, alternatives - albeit with lower efficiency - | exist; hydro pumping, storing it in air turbines (8-9 hours, | 95% efficiency iirc), even compressing air (this one goes to | 85% efficiency iirc). | | http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2022/08/no-sun-no-wind- | now-... | maxbond wrote: | This is a pretty uncharitable reading of what they were | saying, they were commenting on a general principle and how | there was something about the economics of this that had | potential if it were scaled up. They didn't imply that this | particular instance was of particular significance; they were | saying it would be if there were a general trend of this | among _extraction companies_, and they conceded that this | probably wouldn't happen. | boplicity wrote: | Thank you for the thoughtful reply. | | In terms of fossil fuel based clothing, specifically, they | are a growing cause for significant harm in the environment, | and clothing does cause real harm that has lasting | consequences. Fossil fuel based clothing accounts for around | 60% of our clothing. This isn't just a problem of "a few | thousand jackets." | | Microplastics regularly enter our water supply during | laundering. This is a real problem that is causing real harm | to our environment that will be very difficult to reverse. | | In terms of how this relates to climate change; how Patagonia | as a company spends it's profits will now be up to them. I | hope they'll address climate change directly, especially in | terms of real solutions, but who knows what they'll do? | | However, I do know that if all fossil fuel based companies | started re-investing all of their profits towards fixing the | environment problems caused by their products, our world | would be _very different._ | | And yes, Patagonia is just a drop in the bucket in terms of | overall clothing production, but that is not an argument | against them taking action. I like the idea of _every_ fossil | fuel based company taking similar action, not just one | company. I realize this is not realistic, but it is appealing | to me, at least. | femiagbabiaka wrote: | There is a ton of waste generated by the clothing industry | that ends up being pushed onto the third world. Endless | amounts of waste through fast fashion generated by companies | like Shein.. ask any young women. We can do more than one | good thing at a time, and we have to, our existence depends | on it. | nickff wrote: | > _" We live in a fossil fuel based economy; the profit from | fossil fuel based companies should be reinvested towards | transitioning away from fossil fuels. This just makes sense."_ | | These sentences seem like a non-sequitur to me, I'm not sure | you're wrong, but why? Is it because transitioning away from | fossil fuels is your top priority? If so, why? | tshaddox wrote: | I'm not sure if I necessarily agree with that statement | completely, but the sentiment makes sense when you consider | that some portion of the profits from fossil fuel consumption | is associated with costs to unrelated third parties, i.e. | externalities. | andrewxdiamond wrote: | A large issue with fossil fuels is the externalities that | companies can ignore when using them. | | OP means that companies who are benefiting from these | externalities should instead pay the cost | maxbond wrote: | Not GP but what makes sense about it for me is that it's a | negative feedback loop that stabilizes in a desirable place. | If we took the profits generated from a harmful activity, and | used invested them into alternatives, than there's a self- | correcting nature to it that's appealing. As those | alternatives are realized, the pot of money becomes smaller | and smaller, and vanishes altogether when the goal has been | achieved. | | I don't know how well this would work in practice, but it | seems like something people could tinker with and possibly | get to work. | chrsig wrote: | honestly, this is why it's been a bit bizarre to me that | oil companies haven't heavily invested in renewable energy. | | the move away from oil is inevitable - they'd probably | stand to make more money by being at the forefront of the | change than they will by dragging it out. | maxbond wrote: | I have noticed this as well. My conclusion is that they | value power more than they value money. Sustainable | energy is necessarily not a one-size-fits-all solution, | but adapted to the local needs & opportunities of each | community. It's necessarily more complex and less well | suited to economies of scale; it doesn't favor a handful | of gigantic multinationals, and probably would look more | like hundreds of large regional corporations. | | I think they're probably waiting for some kind of silver | bullet that lets us transition to a sustainable source of | very similar chemicals, derived from biomass or directly | from the air, without fundamentally changing society or | changing how our power structures function, and that they | think they're gunnuh do it in just the nick of time. Sort | of a greater fool theory of climate brinksmanship, | passing on each solution in the hope you'll find the | perfect one before time runs out, but you're in a | research lab where the clocks have no hands. | | I fear that it may be worse, and that they may think they | can actually just push through ecosystem collapse with | technological solutions, and just never transition off of | fossil fuels. | rovingEngine wrote: | Technically, voting shares went to the trust, common shares went | to an associated nonprofit. 100% between them. | type0 wrote: | He should give it to Patagonians in Argentina and Chile! | BasilPH wrote: | I'm currently reading Yvon's book "Let my people go surfing"[^1] | and so far, I can highly recommend it. | | The first, shorter half, is about how Patagonia grew, which is | interesting from an entrepreneurial point of view. The second | half is about their philosophies and contains a lot of wisdom on | creating great, lasting products. | | [^1]: https://www.patagonia.com/stories/let-my-people-go- | surfing/s... | ENOTTY wrote: | I'm curious about the ownership, profits, and dividends to | ownership for a private company. Obviously, details on this are | not easy to come by. It seems like Patagonia is self-sustaining | from a cash flow perspective. | | So Patagonia is 50 years old and did an estimated $1.5 billion in | revenues in 2022 (according to Wikipedia). From the article, it | seems like Yvon, his wife, and his two children held both | ownership and control. It might even have been 100% within the | family, given that NYT explicitly writes that, "the family | irrevocably transferred all the company's voting stock, | equivalent to 2 percent of the overall shares" and "The | Chouinards then donated the other 98 percent of Patagonia" | | I wonder how much of the company's profits over the years were | reinvested back into the company and how much went to Yvon and | the other Chouinards. Seems like most or all of his wealth | derives from Patagonia and he lives modestly but comfortably. | hprotagonist wrote: | I continue to respect the man, and find great utility in the | clothing, to boot. | supernova87a wrote: | Apologies if this is an unpopular thing to ask -- but is a very | wealthy person giving away his/her wealth to be held in trust in | perpetuity (to accomplish some mission) an unambiguously good | thing? Separate the question from this particular story today, | that is not my intention to poke at specifically. | | One thing I can see with wealth being transferred among | generations, between _actual people_ , is that people can die and | their ideas (especially bad ones) can die with them. Even if the | wealth is redistributed and misspent, it ends and turns over to | someone else. New ideas and purposes for the wealth can take | their place. | | On the other hand, when a trust/foundation holds wealth, | putatively forever, their mission might turn out not to be | productive, or even good. I think of certain examples of | charities which, by their holdings and activities, keep certain | things in status quo and unable to change, which we would | sometimes like to leave behind. | | All this wealth transferring to entities that will not die and | pass on their fortunes to other purposes. What does this cause in | the long run that we haven't anticipated? | | Like many things that are on my mind, our system is not just | about incentivizing the good, but avoiding the inadvertent bad. | | Am I totally off / this is not a concern? | rebelos wrote: | It's not really a concern so long as they are engaged in | nonzero economic activity, in which case no money is | permanently trapped within the vehicle. Money flows | continuously in an economy and is only at rest in certain | places such as bank reserves, mattresses, etc. But there is a | very low incentive for it to remain at rest because our | monetary system is inflationary. It certainly can be channeled | into inefficient or unproductive economic activity (and often | is), but the system ultimately keeps moving. | | To get more concrete, if you have a charitable trust of the | kind described in this article, then it will pay out salaries | to employees and purchase various kinds goods and services. The | recipients of those money flows will in turn put that money to | work for their own ends: supporting a family with food, | shelter, etc, paying other employees further along the value | chain, acquiring other goods and services, and so on. | | If someone accumulates this much wealth, they are well within | their right to put it to work however they please. And doing so | does not induce some permanent dysfunction in the system. In | this case, I would argue that what the Patagonia founder has | done is immensely commendable. | germinalphrase wrote: | I've heard this exact same argument levied at the Gates | Foundations (despite acknowledging the good they do), so you're | not the only one. | kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote: | I'm still suspect of his motives in buying up so much | farmland... hopefully it's just investment like many people | think. | insane_dreamer wrote: | It could be, but the greater risk is that the children squander | the wealth or divert it from its original purpose (assuming the | original purpose was a good one), which I'd say from history is | more likely to be the case. It also avoids a huge legal battle | between heirs and other parties trying to grab pieces, again | wasting much of it on lawyers etc. | jsolson wrote: | Depends on the trust? | | If your ideas are abstract and roughly "climate isn't fucked" | they seem pretty perennial. They're also open to | interpretation. | | That said, sure, lots of periods in history would've produced | trusts that are truly appalling. Something to be addressed case | by case, for now, though, and collective social will can always | disolve what is ultimately a social contract. | elliekelly wrote: | This is why the Rule Against Perpetuities[1] exists which | limits the existence of a trust to a life in being plus 21 | years. There are various flavors of the rule with plenty of | exceptions and longer waiting periods after the last existing | life-in-being depending on the jurisdiction. I believe | charitable trusts are usually exempt. Matt Levine has written | about the "SPY kids"[2] used when the ETF was formed. | | [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_against_perpetuities | | [2]https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-08-09/the- | sp... ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-09-14 23:00 UTC)