[HN Gopher] 'Soleus pushup' fuels metabolism for hours while sit... ___________________________________________________________________ 'Soleus pushup' fuels metabolism for hours while sitting Author : lend000 Score : 180 points Date : 2022-09-22 19:58 UTC (3 hours ago) (HTM) web link (stories.uh.edu) (TXT) w3m dump (stories.uh.edu) | [deleted] | swayvil wrote: | This could be automated via electrical stimulation. A couple of | battery-powered boxes strapped to your legs. It could be quite | fashionable. | wturner wrote: | The motion seems like it mimics what skateboarders do with their | front foot when they ollie. | Tenoke wrote: | The front foot in an ollie tilts and slides outwards and up. It | doesn't even face or move the same way as this. | swamp40 wrote: | Video of the motion: https://youtu.be/yaK6TThRMdE?t=40 | kenjackson wrote: | It looks like fidgeting, but what you can't tell is if the | muscle is exerting on the eccentric or what the intensity is. | In any case, I'm going back to fidgeting for the afternoon. | [deleted] | t-3 wrote: | Interesting. I wonder if this metabolic response is very | important to human long-distance running capability or if it's | just one small optimization among many? Small muscles used mostly | during extended swimming or climbing might be worth investigation | if muscle-activated metabolic modes are more common. | AlexMuir wrote: | This seems very close to the motion of rapid skipping. Once one | can skip without jumping like a kangaroo it becomes almost | effortless but also gets a good sweat on. | toss1 wrote: | The article & vid makes the specific point that this is NOT | like walking or running (although skipping was not mentioned). | It seems that they are trying to get the muscle to contract | while NOT under load. | | A key seems to be that the muscle normally is setup to resist a | load and so not change length while activated, and also has an | unusually high percentage of cells recruited in each activation | vs other muscles (most strong contractions in human muscles | recruit like 20% of cells, iirc), so this is to get the full | contraction effect and not just a resistance effect. (But I'm | just reading into it...) | boringg wrote: | So when's the product release to provide specific soleus pushups | coming out (as I do my soleus pushups at my desk)? | kgwxd wrote: | > When activated correctly... | | Any chance they found that it's the same activation you get from | walking but just kind of left that part out? | | Edit: Never mind, watched the video. Apparently it's the exact | reverse of that internally? Did they test a moonwalk? | filoeleven wrote: | > Additional publications are in the works focused on how to | instruct people to properly learn this singular movement, but | without the sophisticated laboratory equipment used in this | latest study. | | Since everyone's harping on the previous paragraph and saying | "they're just trying to sell us stuff!!" I figured I should put | this quote in a top-level comment as an anti-inflammatory aid. | _dain_ wrote: | Since in the not too distant past we walked on all fours, | wouldn't the analogous muscles in the wrist also have this | ability as an atavism? Or did we lose it | RobertRoberts wrote: | Eat a _lot_ less. Exercise (even just a little). Don't snack late | into the evening. Be hungry, on a consistent and regular basis. | Don't over-eat. | | No magic, no cost, no special anything. | | It's not easy, and most people can't do it, but it works. And | even if some magic product helps you lose weight, you will still | need to follow the above rules anyways. | | It's like many smokers, they can't quit until they almost die, | but then they just magically can quit, cause it's life and death. | No magic product/idea, just time to make a change. | pawelduda wrote: | Sounds amazing at a first glance, but I was hoping to at least | see them attempt to describe how the move is performed. | | Seems like a trailer for something that needs to be unlocked with | money. | petesergeant wrote: | > In brief, while seated with feet flat on the floor and | muscles relaxed, the heel rises while the front of the foot | stays put. When the heel gets to the top of its range of | motion, the foot is passively released to come back down. The | aim is to simultaneously shorten the calf muscle while the | soleus is naturally activated by its motor neurons. | pawelduda wrote: | Fair enough. I'm guilty of skimming the article, but I saw | this: "The soleus pushup looks simple from the outside, but | sometimes what we see with our naked eye isn't the whole | story. It's a very specific movement that right now requires | wearable technology and experience to optimize the health | benefits", and some statements that made it sound like | something requiring specific tech not available to the | public. | | Thank you, gotta say with that description of the move now it | doesn't sound that hard. | canucker2016 wrote: | from looking at pics of the gastrocnemius muscle (at the | back of the lower leg, main portion from the knee, ending | about midway down the lower leg, attaches to the achilles | tendon) and the soleus muscle (underneath the | gastrocnemius, extending from the knee down to the ankle), | the gastrocnemius shouldn't activate during the motion. | | It seems like you could put your hand on the back of your | calf, close to the knee, and ensure that the gastrocnemius | doesn't flex/stays loose during the motion. | elchief wrote: | there's a video on the site, but here's the link: | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaK6TThRMdE | steve_john wrote: | fefe23 wrote: | They could have tried a bit harder to not make this sound like | "DOCTORS HATE THIS TRICK" | pushcx wrote: | For all the comments wondering what the particular movement and | equipment is, see pages 5 and 6 of the supplementary materials: | https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S25890042220114... | The equipment is an electromyography system with realtime | display. It measures the muscle contraction and is displayed to | the subject so they can learn to recognize the movement that | properly activates the muscle. Contrary to the video, you do not | need to be an academic to buy one, they're fairly common in high- | end sports coaching/rehab and you can find a cheap arduino- | compatible system on Amazon if you want to DIY. | | If you don't read much exercise science, it's worth noting the | paper says "It is important to note that volunteers in Experiment | I (Table S1) were typically sedentary (verified with an objective | tracking device), and none of them had a high aerobic | cardiorespiratory fitness (determined by treadmill VO2max or the | maximal oxygen consumption test)." A common pitfall of exercise | science is that _almost anything_ works wonderfully on untrained | sedentary subjects. Wait for replication. | canucker2016 wrote: | But sedentary people are the target audience for this exercise. | | Athletes worry about having enough energy during their | exercise. | | When many people in developed countries are obese or | overweight, every technique helps, especially something for | those who don't like to sweat... | tylervigen wrote: | Right but the point is that there may be nothing special | about this particular exercise. | | It's a bit complicated to get the equipment and training to | learn how to do this; maybe that effort is better allocated | to just encouraging people to get up and go for a walk every | once in a while. | throw101010 wrote: | > maybe that effort is better allocated to just encouraging | people to get up and go for a walk every once in a while. | | This method has been used for decades and the results on | the obesity rates do not seem to be very good so far. Maybe | it's time to try other approaches. | ravenstine wrote: | From the article: | | _So, how do you perform a soleus pushup? | | In brief, while seated with feet flat on the floor and muscles | relaxed, the heel rises while the front of the foot stays put. | When the heel gets to the top of its range of motion, the foot is | passively released to come back down. The aim is to | simultaneously shorten the calf muscle while the soleus is | naturally activated by its motor neurons._ | alliao wrote: | wonder if drummers (who may activate it more than others) have | statistically significant advantage over others with similar | sitting down lifestyle and energy output... big claims, great if | true! | kwhitefoot wrote: | The article contains a link to a more scholarly article: | https://reader.elsevier.com/reader/sd/pii/S2589004222011415?... | hondo77 wrote: | In case anyone is wondering: "There were in | total 25 human volunteers in 2 sequential experiments..." | | Broken down, that's 10 in one experiment, 15 in the other. No | reason to get too excited with such a small sample size. | earleybird wrote: | "It's not as simple as simply doing a heel lift or raising your | legs when you're sitting or shaking your leg or fidgeting. It's a | very specific movement that's designed where we use some | technologies that aren't necessarily available to the public | unless you're a scientist and you know how to use it." | | This has a bit of a 'smell' that I can't quite put my finger on. | Melatonic wrote: | They also say though that the end goal is to teach people how | to do the movement with no equipment. | | So maybe not so BS | digdugdirk wrote: | The actual quote from the article - "The soleus pushup looks | simple from the outside, but sometimes what we see with our | naked eye isn't the whole story. It's a very specific movement | that right now requires wearable technology and experience to | optimize the health benefits," said Hamilton. | | This is a statement around how to activate the soleus itself, | and its an accurate statement for the majority of the | population. It's an odd muscle to target, as we're generally | more used to using our gastrocnemius muscles when plantar- | flexing our ankle joint. Sitting helps target the soleus (which | is why you might find a seated calf-raise machine next to a | standing calf-raise machine at the gym) but it still requires a | strong mind-muscle connection to activate without having the | gastrocnemius take over. | | Having some electrodes to measure and display specifically | targeted muscle output would help, and this is likely what he's | referring to in the article. | zmgsabst wrote: | I agree that it would help. | | But I'm pretty sure you can just touch the lower, outer part | of your ankle (where it's documented in the picture) to find | out if you're flexing the right one. Thinking about pointing | my toes helped. | | I think people are right the difficulty is oversold. | digdugdirk wrote: | The trick with the soleus is that its _underneath_ the | gastroc. And in many people 's musculoskeletal structures, | its entirely underneath the gastroc - meaning your trick | won't help. Combine that with some compensatory activation | of the gastroc during this movement and people won't be | able to effectively train themselves to get the full effect | of what the researchers are going for here - prolonged | duration soleus activation. | | I'm not saying they couldn't have done a better job | explaining how to do this at home, but its a surprisingly | difficult thing to explain to someone face-to-face when | you're a personal trainer. Let alone when as a scientist | when you only get a short blurb to convey information about | your latest research study. | petesergeant wrote: | Also: "It's a very specific movement that right now requires | wearable technology and experience to optimize the health | benefits" | | Great, sounds patent-able! | canucker2016 wrote: | from the YouTube video, you can see the movement (positioned at | 6 secs into the video): | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaK6TThRMdE&t=6s | | Of course, my friend's Chinese grandmother would admonish my | friend for doing this movement at the table - evidently she | considered the movement to be an indicator for something that | shouldn't be mentioned at the dining table. | dqpb wrote: | They're saying it's difficult to explain how to isolate the | muscle. For example, two simple ways to lift only your heel | from a sitting position are: | | 1. Push down with the ball if you foot | | 2. Lift up with your hip/quad | | They look the same, but are completely different. Do either of | them activate the Soleus? Do neither of them? | Someone wrote: | #2 I would call a pull up or lift up, not a push up, so I | assume it's more like #1. | digdugdirk wrote: | ^ This. | | Its not snake oil, its a statement from a scientist who | attaches musculoskeletal monitoring equipment to people on a | regular basis and knows exactly how capable the average | person is at activating specific muscles on command. | nibbleshifter wrote: | > and knows exactly how capable the average person is at | activating specific muscles on command. | | "Basically terrible". | | It took me a really long time to work out what exactly the | fuck "activate your core" meant. | | Never mind "activate this muscle you have never thought | about before". | peppertree wrote: | In this house we respect the law of thermodynamics! | NotYourLawyer wrote: | Smells like bullshit garnished with snake oil. | canucker2016 wrote: | Three paragraphs earlier in the article: "So, | how do you perform a soleus pushup? In brief, | while seated with feet flat on the floor and muscles relaxed, | the heel rises while the front of the foot stays put. When the | heel gets to the top of its range of motion, the foot is | passively released to come back down. The aim is to | simultaneously shorten the calf muscle while the soleus is | naturally activated by its motor neurons." | | I think that gives the reader enough to replicate the Soleus | Pushup - perhaps an indication on where the effort/force is to | be emphasized/felt would help. | | Looking up "heel lift", the Soleus Pushup reads/sounds a lot | like a seated heel lift. see | https://www.livestrong.com/article/137423-heel-lift-exercise... | irrational wrote: | Yes, this press release reads like one of those "I know the | secret to weight loss that has been lost since ancient times! | Just one payment of $29.99 will get you on the path to your | ideal beach body!" But, then I noticed this was from an actual | university. Huh. And it doesn't ask for money. And it basically | gives the "secret" in the article. But it definitely has that | snake oil smell. | tyingq wrote: | Yeah, there's an implied _" and if I identify for you the | simple way to do this yourself without equipment, my business | model goes poof...so I'll just identify two or three things | that don't leverage that muscle"_. | peregrine wrote: | raises many questions: | | - what movements was this evolved to support? (sprinting? walking | a different way than was studied? running?) | | - Are our shoes causing us to underuse this muscle? | | Just from the video and the cadence shown I suspect if you did a | slightly quick jog running on your forefoot you might hit that | muscle on the rebound. | trynewideas wrote: | See? Don't skip leg day. | giarc wrote: | Don't skip ankle day. | lend000 wrote: | Curious if anyone here had additional context around this. Do | calf raises have a similar effect? Do people with a habit of | bouncing their calves while seated (essentially a soleus pushup | as described in the article) have higher metabolisms on average? | | It makes sense that a part of a calf muscle could have | exceptional endurance, given the importance of walking in humans, | but the article seems to say walking doesn't use it enough to | activate the same effect. Maybe running? | | The article makes some big claims and it would be interesting to | see an independent review. | notyourday wrote: | > Do calf raises have a similar effect? | | Unlikely as untrained person would have a very hard time doing | 50 calf raises | digdugdirk wrote: | Not sure about the specific differences in glucose utilization | between the soleus and the gasctroc (the other main calf | muscle) but in general, yes. Calf raises should have a similar | effect. The key factor seems to be the soleus doesn't fatigue | as quickly, allowing this to be sustained to a point where the | muscle energy source shifts to a more long term type of fuel. | | As for people who bounce their calves? Absolutely - this is | called NEAT (Non Exercise Activity Thermogenesis) in scientific | research. Its lumped in with general movement - walking, | climbing stairs, etc. This can account for a few hundred | calories per day. Here's an overview study that claims up to | 350 calories per day: | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6058072/ | urubu wrote: | Standing calf raises train the gastrocnemius and the soleus. | Many gyms also have a seated calf raise machine which is meant | to isolate the soleus. | | I don't think I ever felt anything special after using it. | digdugdirk wrote: | You'd know if you had isolated the soleus. It feels weirdly | (but noticeably) different to activating the gastroc. Much | deeper and more centralized. | renewiltord wrote: | Seems hard to do since your gastrocnemius will just take over. | Whatever, I'll do random heel lifts anyway. The calves could use | some strengthening. | jollyllama wrote: | So just tap your foot in a weird way and you can keep your | metabolism high? | layer8 wrote: | "How to lose weight with this one weird trick." | notyourday wrote: | ... which works as long as one does not consume more calories | that the total amount of calories one burns (i.e. is in a | caloric deficit). The real issue is that individuals who suffer | from excessive weight tend to be in a caloric surplus | jollyllama wrote: | It wouldn't be much of a metabolism trick at all if it | doesn't work in ketosis or fasting. If you can burn fat, it | should still work. | notyourday wrote: | > It wouldn't be much of a metabolism trick at all if it | doesn't work in ketosis or fasting. If you can burn fat, it | should still work. | | Body will always switch to burning mostly fat after a | prolonged period of physical activity which studies suggest | for moderate level of constant physical activity happens | somewhere around 90 minute mark. There are no magic | bullets. | pessimizer wrote: | > There are no magic bullets. | | How would you know this? | kevin_thibedeau wrote: | Yes. It's just simulated fidgeting which has been demonstrated | to burn a meaningful amount of calories. | jollyllama wrote: | I'm reminded of those under desk fitness bikes. | mmastrac wrote: | I'm curious if this is the same muscle that causes Charlie | Horses. I can activate it on its own without moving my leg and | can hold it in tension for a long time but if you flex it too | hard it knots and is quite painful. | | The way that I can flex it: | | Lie on your back on the floor with your heels on a couch, knees | approx 90 degrees | | Tip/rotate your foot forward and you'll feel a large muscle | engage | | Try and flex that muscle like you would your bicep or pectorals. | You'll find that you can hold it for quite some time. | | Edit: I managed to hold it for a few minutes and it's a very odd | feeling afterwards. Almost like I had done a bunch of stairs with | no cardio. | | Edit 2: Standing afterwards wasn't fun - I had to stretch my | calves out to walk normally. | outworlder wrote: | > I'm curious if this is the same muscle that causes Charlie | Horses. | | Not sure what you mean. We can have charlie horses in any | skeletal muscle. | mmastrac wrote: | Oh yeah, but at least in myself, they are primarily in the | calves. | ibrahimsow1 wrote: | I don't understand the physical motion. Simply raising the heel | whilst sitting? | ivan_ah wrote: | See this video at t=34 secs: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaK6TThRMdE&t=34s | | Seems pretty simple... I guess what is special is (1) you can | do it while sitting, and (2) the muscle doesn't seem to get | tired so you can do it all day. | [deleted] | lapetitejort wrote: | I think it's more complicated based on the article: | | > "...It's a very specific movement that right now requires | wearable technology and experience to optimize the health | benefits." | | So it sounds like the performer may have to look at a graph to | see that the right motion has been achieved? This video | reinforces the notion: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaK6TThRMdE | grahamplace wrote: | From the article: | | > In brief, while seated with feet flat on the floor and | muscles relaxed, the heel rises while the front of the foot | stays put. When the heel gets to the top of its range of | motion, the foot is passively released to come back down. | version_five wrote: | "We never dreamed that this muscle has this type of capacity. | It's been inside our bodies all along, but no one ever | investigated how to use it to optimize our health, until now," | said Hamilton. "When activated correctly, the soleus muscle can | raise local oxidative metabolism to high levels for hours, not | just minutes, and does so by using a different fuel mixture." | | I'm can't evaluate the claims, but this kind of language makes me | suspicious. Is this some whole new phenomenon or are there | existing, known effects that this somehow parallels? | digdugdirk wrote: | There are people who train their entire bodies to function on | different biochemical processes, generally long distance | endurance athletes training to perform in a fat adapted state | for ultramarathons and the like. | | The research here just seems to suggest that the soleus muscle | itself has a lower "barrier to entry" before utilizing | different energy sources (blood glucose and fat oxidation) | which allows it to sustain activity for a longer time duration. | This makes sense, as the soleus is highly involved in walking, | and humans basically evolved to walk more than we've evolved to | do anything else. | soperj wrote: | I wonder if there is some kind of unintended consequences to | using that fuel mixture... | spywaregorilla wrote: | This is just leg bouncing right? Like sitting in a chair and | moving your leg up and down? The thing that people yell at you | for because it's annoying and rumbles the table and the car and | the chairs? | | edit: yes it is. it's shown in the first ten seconds of the | video. | croes wrote: | "The soleus pushup looks simple from the outside, but sometimes | what we see with our naked eye isn't the whole story. It's a | very specific movement that right now requires wearable | technology and experience to optimize the health benefits" | spywaregorilla wrote: | This statement applies to pretty much every form of physical | activity though | twobitshifter wrote: | The article says you need special training and it's not just | fidgeting. I'm not sure what to make of that. | klyrs wrote: | Work from home, nobody will know how much your legs are quaking | if your camera isn't mechanically linked to them... | spywaregorilla wrote: | I've been called out for shaking my camera resting on the | table actually. | klyrs wrote: | That counts as mechanical linkage. My camera and monitor | are attached to the wall, not my desk, for precisely this | reason. | revolvingocelot wrote: | I mean, it's not _just_ leg bouncing in that I can bounce my | leg in a way that clearly doesn 't activate the soleus in the | manner shown in the video. | | But it also is just leg bouncing in that there's no more | complicated motion than a certain sort of slow, controlled leg- | bounce. | ourmandave wrote: | Can I get a health app update on my Apple Watch that tracks my | leg bouncing? | | Cause I could break records if I'm in meetings all week. | jaggs wrote: | Near the end of the actual paper | (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S258900422...) | - | | "Here we have focused on a method of raising slow oxidative | muscle metabolism to complement (not replace) existing | approaches." | | Maybe less snake oil and more a reasoned hypothesis? | neilknowsbest wrote: | As an aside, the web page for this story shows pictures of a | study participant seated in front of a big monitor displaying | their vitals. I don't know much about study design, but I feel | like that would confound results. | thebeardisred wrote: | It looked to me as if it was a biofeedback system for the | purpose of aiding the individual in isolating the correct | muscle movement(s). | Jweb_Guru wrote: | These claims sound pretty suspect and much more selective | journals than iScience have published completely bogus research | before. Would like to see this replicated many, many times before | anyone starts selling a product whose purported benefits are | demonstrated solely from a single research study from a highly | conflicted author. | pessimizer wrote: | > much more selective journals than iScience have published | completely bogus research before. | | Do you post this under every journal article? Reminding | everyone that things have been false before in places? | swamp40 wrote: | > Instead of breaking down glycogen, the soleus can use other | types of fuels such as _blood glucose_ and _fats_. Glycogen is | normally the predominant type of carbohydrate that fuels muscular | exercise. | | > When the SPU was tested, the whole-body effects on blood | chemistry included a 52% improvement in the excursion of blood | glucose (sugar) and 60% less insulin requirement over three hours | after ingesting a glucose drink. | | That's amazing if it is true. | bluGill wrote: | Most muscles can use a variety of energy sources. Cells have | had to deal with famine and seasons since long before humans, | and so needed ways to use whatever energy is available. Sugar | is by far the easiest to use for energy, but fats are used as | well. | debacle wrote: | Not a biologist, but I would wonder why only this muscle would | be capable of this. Metabolizing fats is a complex process. | kiba wrote: | If you do aerobic exercise, you metabolize fat. | debacle wrote: | But _in a muscle_? That seems to be the argument here, | unless it 's just bad journalism. | porpoisemonkey wrote: | Also not a biologist - just an enthusiastic layman. | | The Soleus muscle (Soleal pump) is partially responsible for | helping to return blood from your legs back up to your heart | while upright. [1] This is a fairly critical process so it | would make sense that it would be able to metabolize multiple | energy sources. | | [1] https://www.physio-pedia.com/Soleus | lock-the-spock wrote: | Interesting. And the logical second conclusion is that this | is an evolutionarily costly process, otherwise it would be | common across our muscles. Maybe the muscle has a higher | risk of injury, degeneration, cancer than othe muscles...? | swamp40 wrote: | Might have something to do with the "need for speed". Running | further than your glycogen alone can take you - increases | your survival odds. | cowmoo728 wrote: | All muscles are capable of metabolizing fat. In cycling (and | other endurance sports), one of the adaptations observed in | top athletes is that their muscles become highly efficient at | metabolizing fat during medium-intensity exercise. A | professional endurance athlete will metabolize about 70% fat, | 30% carbs for the majority of a multi-hour event. This | preserves their muscle glycogen for the high-intensity bits | where they need to push 400+ watts for 20-30 minutes up a | final climb, or do a 1200w sprint to the finish line. When | the intensity level exceeds a threshold, the muscle will | begin switching to nearly 100% glycogen. Once that glycogen | is depleted, muscles lose their top-end peak power output. | | Sedentary overweight people tend to become very inefficient | at metabolizing fat. At anything higher than a slow walking | pace, for example, they will begin the cutover to glycogen | and turn down fat metabolism. | | I believe the press release is saying that the soleus muscle | is unique in that it does not have a readily accessible store | of glycogen. So even in sedentary people that are normally | extremely inefficient at metabolizing fat, exercising the | soleus will force their body to metabolize blood glucose and | fat. Normally it takes months or even years of slow and | steady exercise to make a sedentary overweight person | effectively metabolize fat while exercising at an intensity | high enough to trigger serious metabolic improvements. So if | true, the soleus muscle would be a magic shortcut to this | process. | mmastrac wrote: | In this case, is the body releasing actual fat into the | bloodstream for use by the muscles, rather than the fat | stores burning fat directly for ATP? | cowmoo728 wrote: | Yes, fatty acids are bound up in TriAcylGlycerol (TAG). | Exercise triggers the breakdown of TAG in fat reserves, | sending fatty acids into the blood. These fatty acids go | through a pretty complicated process to be delivered into | a muscle cell, and then into the muscle cell | mitochondria. This transport process cannot keep up with | energy expenditure during intense exercise, thus the | cutover to stored muscle glycogen (and at even higher | peak loads under about 10 seconds, creatine phosphate). | | Sedentary people lose the ability to rapidly deliver fat | into muscle cell mitochondria. | | This is a good summary of the current state of the | research. | | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5766985/ | drivers99 wrote: | Randomly (by searching) found this. Sounds like the | former thing you said (where "adipose tissue" is "actual | fat" you mentioned, releases fatty acids to circulation | (bloodstream), which are used by the muscles). | | > During exercise, triacylglycerols, an energy reservoir | in adipose tissue, are hydrolyzed to free fatty acids | (FAs) which are then released to the circulation, | providing a fuel for working muscles | | https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2019.0 | 002... | digdugdirk wrote: | There are a lot of callouts of "This is BS" in regards to this | article. | | Look at it from a different perspective. I would _HIGHLY_ prefer | this to a short press release blurb that allows pop-science | clickbait aggregators (or even worse, the "science" sections of | CBS/CNN and the like) to have first crack at it. | | This was produced by the university themselves, and provides a | concise yet accurate and detailed overview of the biochemistry | involved, as well as a nice short embedded youtube video | demonstrating the movement in question and going over the main | points of the research. | | Yes, improvements could be made, and yes, follow up studies will | need to be performed. But this is head and shoulders above the | "ONE SMALL TRICK, DIETICIANS HATE HIM" alternative we would have | gotten otherwise. | lock-the-spock wrote: | Exactly. Essentially the trick is not "use this muscle". It | rather is "do this specific movement with this muscle. I can | describe it quite simply, but to truly learn it you'll need a | biofeedback device and you need to know what you're working | towards." | | There are a lot of surprising skills that we could learn if we | just knew how and put in the effort. See e.g. the blind | mountainbikers using echolocation to 'see' the path, or method | of loci/other memory techniques. | Tenoke wrote: | >I can describe it quite simply, but to truly learn it you'll | need a biofeedback device and you need to know what you're | working towards. | | I don't know, some gifs from different angles would sure have | helped more given our lack of devices (though yes, the video | does show one important angle). | | At any rate the complaints aren't so much in the description | but in it being yet another simple trick, of which we see | thousands and few if any pan out especially to the level | claimed here. | cardosof wrote: | So if I activate this tiny muscle in my calf for a while my | metabolism will be up for hours? And where all that added energy | will go? I don't know a thing in this area but I know that when | something looks too good to be true, it probably isn't. | zaven wrote: | lostlogin wrote: | > when something looks too good to be true, it probably isn't. | | Is that a typo or are you a very lucky individual? | anikan_vader wrote: | >> It probably isn't [true]. | tsimionescu wrote: | I think they mean, when something looks too good to be true, | it probably isn't [true] (though that's not how the phrase is | normally used, of course). | mikhailyus wrote: | If the muscle can be activated only by specific equipment, how it | survived the evolution? Why is it still in our bodies? | steve_adams_86 wrote: | The muscle is activated constantly during walking and running | for example; I once strained mine and it took a long time to | heal because it fires so frequently. | | The point here is that it's non-trivial to activate it on | command while sitting. The special equipment is likely meant to | activate the muscle for all users on command, making their | research far more reliable. | peanut_worm wrote: | Wonder if this has anything to do with how some people nervously | tap their feet | ravenstine wrote: | > Hamilton's research suggests the soleus pushup's ability to | sustain an elevated oxidative metabolism to improve the | regulation of blood glucose is more effective than any popular | methods currently touted as a solution including exercise, weight | loss and intermittent fasting. | | I want to believe in this idea, but all I can say is that's quite | a claim. | | I _could_ believe that it 's more effective at glucose regulation | than exercise, but to say that it's more effective than weight | loss seems peculiar because loss of _fat mass_ (which I 'm | assuming is what is meant by weight loss) is a result of | downregulating how much glucose and fat (insuling being present | in response to glucose) can enter cells. Maybe there's a logic to | that statement, but it seems to be comparing a cause to an | effect. Presumably, if the soleus pushup lives up to its name, it | would have a negative effect on fat mass. If blood glucose was | poorly regulated, absent a failure to produce enough insulin, fat | loss would be a sign of better blood glucose regulation. | | > The new approach of keeping the soleus muscle metabolism | humming is also effective at doubling the normal rate of fat | metabolism in the fasting period between meals, reducing the | levels of fat in the blood (VLDL triglyceride). | | I'm sure that my confusing here is a result of ignorance, but not | all fat metabolism is proximal to where it's stored, so I would | not expect VLDL to be reduced, but the opposite. Also, fat isn't | just transported by VLDL but by chylomicrons. If the fat being | metabolized isn't postprandial, maybe it's still getting | transported another way? I'd think it would have to unless | something special is going on. | | EDIT: Nevermind, I think I had it backwards. Chylomicrons | transport dietary fat from the intestine. | | And too bad my DIY calorimeter has a broken sensor, because I | would love to test myself and see if such an exercise has a | measurable effect on RQ. | wrycoder wrote: | I believe that the journal article is freely downloadable[0]. | | [0] | https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S258900422... | (pdf) | | What is this diy calorimeter? | ravenstine wrote: | Oh, you're right. For some reason I thought it was requesting | I pay. | | A calorimeter in a general sense measures heat transference, | calories being a measure of heat. | | More specifically, what I build is an _indirect_ calorimeter | which uses respiratory gas analysis to not only measure human | energy expenditure in calories but make an approximation of | the ratio of glucose to fat being utilized. The reason I | might fix my calorimeter sooner rather than later is to see | whether I can witness greater glucose utilization with the | soleus pushup than with other exercises of the similar energy | expenditure. | | EDIT: In the paper it states that they used an indirect | calorimeter. It's a very cool device to have access to, but I | don't recommend anyone build their own like I did. As the | paper describes, it's really hard to get right with even the | best equipment. Calibration is very difficult and subtle body | movements can totally mess with a reading. | | > VO2 and VCO2 production were determined using a TrueOne | 2400 metabolic system from Parvo Medics. The gas analyzers | and pneumotach were calibrated according to standard | manufacturer procedures using certified calibration gases. | Sufficient time to flush out the gas lines and average steady | state measurements was always confirmed. The measurement | period was extended when it was deemed helpful (such as if | there was a fluctuation in VO2 caused by a cough or when | taking additional time to confirm the precision of the | result). We were careful to ensure participants were | positioned when sitting completely relaxed to avoid | extraneous movement beyond the intended SPU plantarflexion | movement. This included positioning the chair back rest and | height for each individual to optimize a restful position. | wrycoder wrote: | Do you have a link to your technology? | | Why is the indirect method so sensitive to extraneous | movement? More so than just reflecting the additional | energy expenditure? | birdyrooster wrote: | I am always doing soleus pushups to stim for my ADHD and it | hasn't kept me from getting fat or tired. | gitpusher wrote: | > "Hamilton's research suggests the soleus pushup [...] is more | effective than any popular methods currently touted as a solution | [to a sedentary lifestyle] including exercise, weight loss and | intermittent fasting." | | Better than exercise? LOL. | nibbleshifter wrote: | Better than exercise in that most people living a sedentary | lifestyle basically get none, and are shit at sticking with | exercise regimens. | | Better than IF in that IF is a crock of wank. | | Better than weight loss in that most people who lose weight | gain it back rather quick. | | Basically they are saying this is low effort and efficient | enough to be better than those options in the realistic | scenario of many people being bad at the alternatives | lock-the-spock wrote: | The example patient in the video is rather senior and he seems | to aim at diabetics/age-related issues. | dang wrote: | " _Please don 't post shallow dismissals, especially of other | people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something._" | | https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html | Melatonic wrote: | Learn this one easy but weird trick to COMPLETELY counter the | effects of a sedentary lifestyle. Personal trainers HATE this! | cheschire wrote: | Coincidentally I saw the domain name right after reading that | sentence. | notyourday wrote: | I think this is going to end up being an overblow over- | editorialized headline. | | This looks to be an example of NEAT movements, which engage | muscles and therefore of course increases energy requirement. The | effect of NEAT on energy requirements of a body is fairly well | studies and fairly well known. It would have been far more | interesting if it lasted for over 4 hours as that would at least | in theory pass the 2nd level signaling. | | If you are interested in this, I highly recommend Huberman's | podcasts such as https://hubermanlab.com/how-to-lose-fat-with- | science-based-t... | | and | | https://hubermanlab.com/dr-andy-galpin-how-to-build-strength... | jawns wrote: | I'm a former journalist, and I'd like to touch on some of the | comments about how this article reads like a dubious infomercial, | with a lot of outsized claims that are setting off people's B.S. | detectors. | | They set off mine, as well. | | But you have to remember that this is not a news article. It is | not written by someone with any degree of expertise in the | subject matter. Rather, it's written by a member of the media- | relations department at the university. The only source for the | piece appears to be Marc Hamilton, a professor at the university. | | So what you're likely perceiving is the author trying to hype up | something that is inherently pretty boring and technical, and it | comes off as B.S. | cycomanic wrote: | Very likely it's not the professor hyping it, but the uni | communications office. This reads like a typical uni press | release. The scientists typically have little influence on it, | they typically read the text that there is no factual errors, | but they also leave it to the subject experts (the | journalists/communicators) to write the text. | hn_throwaway_99 wrote: | I agree with all the other comments about this - the whole thing | stinks of a BS infomercial, for very specific reasons: | | 1. Are people supposed to do this contraction _indefinitely_ | while sitting? Good luck with that. | | 2. Is this only supposed to be done with an e-stim machine to | generate the contraction? Again, if so, it may be an interesting | curiosity, but it's not practical. | | FWIW I wouldn't have such a negative reaction if the whole site | and presentation wasn't in "slick bullshit" form, but instead | conservatively, and _clearly_ , presented their for findings. | lock-the-spock wrote: | It doesn't seem like a stim, rather it's a biofeedback device. | The YouTube video shows quite clearly how they are working | toward the right 'curve' of muscle tension. | jpollock wrote: | The "Strengthening Exercises" for the soleus muscle would be a | way to target it? Unless it needs a specific interval to get it | into some sort of oxygen deficit or something? | | (From the linked page[1]) | | Some exercises to strengthen your soleus may include: | | * Bent knee plantar flexion with a resistance band | | * Bent knee heel raises (as per the Alfredson protocol[2]) | | * Seated calf raises | | Again, the bent knee position keeps your calf on slack and focus | the workload on the soleus muscles of your lower legs. | | [1] https://www.verywellhealth.com/soleus-muscle- | anatomy-4684082.... | | [2] Alfredson Protocol: https://www.verywellhealth.com/the- | alfredson-protocol-for-ac... | DoingIsLearning wrote: | > The "Strengthening Exercises" for the soleus muscle would be | a way to target it? Unless it needs a specific interval to get | it into some sort of oxygen deficit or something? | | They specifically perform a concentric contraction of the | soleus _and_ "passive drop" of the heel. | | So without more detail of the paper it's difficult to tell but | it seem that the benefit is in performing concentric | contractions _without_ eccentric contractions of the soleus. | elil17 wrote: | At the end of the video, the researcher says that it's not as | simple as just tapping your foot, you need some technology to | isolate the motion. Could anyone with a better understanding of | anatomy/muscles explain how that works and how they get people to | perform this motion? | ilaksh wrote: | First, they get the university to publish an article making | their claim seem credible. | | They then get an investor to give them $300,000 and make a | custom order with a factory in China to add another piece of | plastic and some branding to an existing device. | | They wait 3 months and then receive 30,000 "magic" gizmos in | the mail. | | Then, they sell people a $250 electric muscle stimulator that | you wear while sitting. | | Then they buy a really big new house. They live in a city in | the United States though so after taxes and paying a few other | people off, it barely even qualifies as a mansion. | | Probably aiming for something like this one | https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/6503-Edloe-St-Houston-TX-... | which is very nice, but his country club friends who are really | rich will compare it to their guest houses. | | Fortunately they are almost done with the $59.99 app that | tracks how much fat you are supposedly burning while you sit | there for hours and your calfs twitch. | | I think this will sell very, very well. People are incredibly | lazy and want to believe that not only do they not need to get | off their fat ass, they don't need to move anything other than | their feet and legs a few inches. Not only that, they don't | even need the willpower to move on their own, and in fact it | only works if they plug in to a device that does everything for | them. Lol. | yread wrote: | This is very mean! But I did laugh out loud, thank you | lock-the-spock wrote: | If appears to be a biofeedback device, to help the individual | learn the precise motion, rather than just "do something that | looks like it". | timothylaurent wrote: | There's no way that isolating the soleus is somehow mysterious | and out of reach of the common person. | | Just tell us what sort of activation is needed - how long should | you do the exercise - we can manage to figure out if we're | working our soleus. | kazinator wrote: | I think the soleus helps to pump blood. Flexing the soleus could | be improving circulation, which is responsible for some of the | allegedly observed effects. | | In Japanese there is a saying "hukurahagihaDi Er noXin Zang " | (fukurahagi wa, dai-ni no shinzou: the calves are a second | heart). | | Calf-io-vascular workout? Haha. | gcau wrote: | Having seen the video, it looks like the natural leg tapping | motion literally everyone instinctively does when sitting down. | andyjsong wrote: | I've been known to pump my leg rapidly like in the video when | I'm anxious. Maybe it's an involuntary artifact to "keep the | engine running" just in case my flight senses are triggered. | gcanyon wrote: | I definitely don't do that tapping motion instinctively. Unless | I'm actively _doing_ something, I am naturally still. Ten years | ago I found out I have Factor V Leiden, which can cause blood | clots. Since then I 've consciously tried to develop the habit | of toe-tapping. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-09-22 23:00 UTC)