[HN Gopher] FBI misled judge who signed warrant for seizure of $... ___________________________________________________________________ FBI misled judge who signed warrant for seizure of $86M in cash Author : octoberfranklin Score : 76 points Date : 2022-09-24 21:32 UTC (1 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.latimes.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.latimes.com) | barneygale wrote: | American law enforcement is a state-sponsored criminal gang. | Here, they robbed a bank. | ajsnigrutin wrote: | It's funny... if an engineer fucks something up, s/he can be | personally responsible for the fuckup.... doctors need personal | malpractice insurance for their fuckups... professional drivers | can easily go to jail if they fuck up... | | ...but if a government worker, paid by the taxpayers, fucks up... | the worst that can happen is, the taxpayers have to pay for | eventual lawsuit cost and damages to the people who got fucked by | that worker. | | For something like this, atleast a few people should end up in | jail for a long time. | reset-password wrote: | Right. This is nuts that this is happening in America. Lynne | Zellhart is disgusting and people like her should be | imprisoned. | elcritch wrote: | At the least the senior FBI and US Attorney's should be liable | to be held in contempt of court. Yes they might need some | protection in carrying out their lawful duty but lying and | misleading the judiciary isn't lawfully carrying out those | duties. | system2 wrote: | System is rigger for them. That will not happen in 1000 years. | aaaaaaaaaaab wrote: | >if an engineer fucks something up, s/he can be personally | responsible for the fuckup | | Except software engineers :) | [deleted] | melony wrote: | Most SaaSes have much more lower stakes. | Biomedical/automotive/aerospace are already covered by | existing regulations. | nine_zeros wrote: | It happens not just in judiciary or criminal cases, but also in | DMV, state permits, immigration etc. | | Even a typographical error or minor delays by the government | official has asymmetric consequences for the human but no | consequence to the officer. You can be perfect and do | everything correctly but still fall off a cliff because some | government officer made a typographical error. | Overtonwindow wrote: | I think what you might be suggesting is to remove prosecutorial | immunity. There are so many cases of wrongdoing by prosecutors | and judges, and there's really very little that can be done to | punish them. | jmyeet wrote: | It's worth noting that this case wasn't a screw up. It was a | deliberate act of deception. You may well understand this but | "fuck up" is an ambiguous term that might allow for negligence | or an error rather than actual malfeasance, which was the case | here. | heyflyguy wrote: | I agree and though much of the outrage has some political ties | to it, I think and assume you agree that this is a pervasive | problem for everyone not within the ranks of a federal agency | of some kind. | _cs2017_ wrote: | > Only those who wish to hide their wealth from the DEA, IRS, or | creditors would" rent a box anonymously at U.S. Private Vaults, | she wrote | | It appears this opinion was wrong: many honest people did choose | this store instead of a bank for their safety deposit needs. I | wonder why? I understand this question has no bearing on the | legality of the FBI actions, but I do want to understand the | customers' rationale. | justinzollars wrote: | In my lifetime one of the biggest freedoms we have lost is | private banking. Prior to 9/11 banking was relatively private. | What you had was your own, and secret. You could even have a | private bank account in Switzerland. Now, if you are American | foreign banks won't even bother dealing with you. | | Obviously the paranoid state, won't like the idea of a private | safety deposit box company. | | I think the next leg to fall is cash itself. We will move to CBDC | and social credit. | didericis wrote: | > We will move to CBDC and social credit | | There's something incredibly irresponsible and pathetic about | acknowledging a course of action that seems bad/inevitable, and | then declaring that it _will_ happen. | | The future is not inevitable. If you declare failure to reach a | positive future as inevitable, you are actively working towards | failure, not success. | Sebb767 wrote: | > Now, if you are American foreign banks won't even bother | dealing with you. | | I'm living in the EU and any bank-related form I had to fill | out ask whether I have ties to the USA. There's one for "are | you citizen of a different country?", but the USA (and only the | USA) is always asked for explicitly. | kozziollek wrote: | And non-American banks force their non-American customers to | answer "are you happen to be American resident?". Even when | they never did anything related to USA. | | Imagine if every country on Earth asked this. But of course USA | can force other countries to do whatever it wants. | BLKNSLVR wrote: | And China has a few years head start in that direction. | | The US following China's lead. I'd hope that the idea alone, of | following in China's footsteps, is enough to get the US to | change course. | trasz wrote: | >The US following China's lead. | | Quality of life in China is constantly improving. In US it | isn't. So no, US isn't following China's lead. | justinzollars wrote: | not sure why this is being downvoted. China recently | surpassed the US in life expectancy. But suppose you do not | trust Chinese statistics; Mexico passed US life expectancy. | Life expectancy a good measure for right track / wrong | track. | didericis wrote: | I'm not so sure about that... look at the demographic | issues and the current banking collapse. China looks like | it's starting a pretty precipitous decline. | | I hope things stabilize and people there DO keep improving, | I have no desire to see _anywhere_ stagnate or start | declining. But I'm also extremely aware of how much of the | Chinese state apparatus is dedicated to lying and | distorting public perception, and what I hear about what's | been going on behind the scenes sounds really bad right | now. | bumblebritches5 wrote: | jmyeet wrote: | Here's the lesson I want people to take away from this: the idea | that there is a literal interpretation of the Constitution is a | myth. | | This egregious seizure is just further proof that the Fourth | Amendment is pretty much dead. Any kind of forfeiture without | probable cause should be a Fourth Amendment violation but yet | civil asset forfeiture (the most egregious form of Fourth | Amendment violation) remains legal. | | Probably the worst thing about this case is that the government | has been caught in a lie and isn't backing down and they want to | keep the contents. Any "evidence" gleaned from these contents | should be absolutely inadmissible without prior and specific | probable cause. There should be no allowance for "there's no | reason why legitimate customers would use USPV instead of a | bank". | | Lots of people distrust banks. Not using a bank is not evidence | of a crime let alone probable cause. | | I really hope the FBI and the US attorney get their rear ends | handed to them over this but I have doubts they ever will. | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | Semi related: It is interesting that these items are not | considered the bank's property yet if I upload something to the | cloud it is considered the cloud provider's data. | | Why isn't cloud data treated the same as a safety deposit box? | buran77 wrote: | > if I upload something to the cloud it is considered the cloud | provider's data | | Is it? The cloud _stores_ your data but the provider does not | _own_ your pictures or your PhD paper just because you uploaded | them there. Any example of an EULA where a cloud provider | assumes ownership of all data? Or you 're thinking of | situations like Facebook who I believe (may be wrong or | misremembering) has this in their EULA - content uploaded | become theirs. | | On the other end of the spectrum as long as they don't know | what's there (encryption?) it can't hurt them in the eyes of | the law. If they can see what's there then authorities can | still force them to act (identify the owner, remove the data, | etc.). | GeekyBear wrote: | > The cloud stores your data but the provider does not own | your pictures or your PhD paper just because you uploaded | them there. | | I would assume that a bank does not regularly go rifling | through the contents of everyone's safety deposit boxes and | reporting items they believe are incriminating the way a | cloud provider does. | | https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/21/technology/google- | surveil... | LadyCailin wrote: | You agreed to terms of service that gave the data to them. That | would be a good canary case though, have a bank provide the | same terms of service for their physical lock boxes, and see if | that gets struck down, despite the TOS. If so, you have a case | to annul the digital TOS as wel. | [deleted] ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-09-24 23:00 UTC)