[HN Gopher] PS5 Refresh: Oberon Plus ___________________________________________________________________ PS5 Refresh: Oberon Plus Author : de6u99er Score : 100 points Date : 2022-09-25 14:28 UTC (8 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.angstronomics.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.angstronomics.com) | Aissen wrote: | It's crazy that amidst this cost saving, Sony is still going | forward with the price increase in some markets. | hatware wrote: | > It's crazy | | It took me 18 months for the chance to buy one from Sony | Direct. It'd be crazy for Sony not to adjust prices when demand | is through the roof. | nerdawson wrote: | Cost of living increases primarily affect day-to-day spending | while a PS5 is a luxury purchase. | | If you can't afford it at the new price, it probably wouldn't | have been a wise purchase at the original price. | | Sony is a business. Their costs have gone up markedly and when | the hardware is already subsidised, it's unrealistic to not | expect increased costs to be passed on. | Waterluvian wrote: | I'm actually surprised how long prices stayed put despite a | mismatch between supply and demand. | | Any time there's a vibrant scalping market, your prices are | too low. | ajmurmann wrote: | For this reason I always thought Sony and Nvidia should | just auction off their products initially till the auction | price is barely above the floor price/planned retail price. | Just let the market do its thing and take the profit | instead of giving it to scalpers and inconveniencing | everyone in the process | Waterluvian wrote: | Another alternative is that they sell them first Party | (probably a non-option because storefronts would probably | throw a fit). And instead of first come first serve, | simply have a queue. | wmf wrote: | But instead of hating scalpers, then customers would hate | Sony and Nvidia. | asteroidbelt wrote: | Sony could be smart, for example keep existing price as | is, but also offering "premium" version for higher price | but with delivery this week. This would kill scalpers. | lozenge wrote: | Nintendo did this, the Switch was out of stock | consistently, unless you bought it in a "bundle". A lot | of the bundles were 12 months of the Online service, so | basically easy profit. | colechristensen wrote: | I've thought the right thing to do would be to put up | ~10% of production to auction to take revenue from | scalpers. | Waterluvian wrote: | I would have preferred that. I bought mine from a scalper | with a third of the warranty gone before it was out of | the box. Would have preferred to get it from Sony. | chippiewill wrote: | Sony will have already factored in the cost saving over the | entire lifespan of the product. | | I recall that the original Playstation 3 was a massive loss | leader. Despite being hugely expensive it was pretty much the | cheapest Blu Ray player on the market at the time. They were | able to sell it at a loss because gaining a foothold was | critical to selling it for a profit later on and the projected | savings would let them recoup their losses. | | If cost of living and inflation weren't crazy right now across | the world then I'm sure we'd be looking at a price drop on the | Playstation 5 right now as that's where their projected margins | would leave them. But factoring in both the cost savings and | inflation means they still need a price rise just to keep on | track. | alias_neo wrote: | PS3 wasn't particularly reliable for me (anecdotal). | | I still have my PSP 1000, PS (Grey rectangular one, not the | later "One"), PS2 Satin Silver was sold years ago, PS4 was | given away when I got PS5, all launch day purchases; I went | through 3 PS3s in its lifetime. | paulmd wrote: | I mean, it's a readjustment to local currency values - | otherwise they're selling the PS5 for 20% less in EU markets | than in US markets. At some point it becomes worth it to buy a | container of hardware and turn it around and sell it in the US | as "grey market" and that's value that Sony wants to capture | for themselves. | | Even allowing software to be sold at different prices in | different countries already has far more financial | ramifications than people expect - the grey market seriously | impacts the profitability of sales in high-earning countries, | and it fosters a whole black-market of cdkeys that are | purchased using stolen cards/etc and used for money laundering. | But with hardware it is a very straightforward "this costs $X | to R&D and $Y to build and we're not going to sell it to you | for 20% less than everyone else", you're seeing the grey market | die out even in traditional strongholds like cameras. | | Also, PS5 is a console designed around hardware profitability. | They reached profitability around 6-9 months after launch and | they don't want to go backward. Everyone finally said enough is | enough after PS3 losing hundreds of dollars per console, and | the PS4 and XB1 are much more conservative designs with | integrated hardware to cut costs, and they reached | profitability fairly quickly. PS5 succeeds this and Sony | absolutely does not want to go back to the "loss-leader | hardware" model. | | Prices are sticky, companies don't always want to adjust them | every time $FXE has a bad week, but... Sony isn't interested in | selling to multiple major markets at a discount that pushes | their hardware into the "subsidized" territory. And they've | been down for a while now. For everyone else, their cost- | reduction in the console itself has been sufficient to hold the | price down, but you don't get a discount like you normally | would a couple years into the lifecycle. But for the markets | where there have been big currency depreciations on top... they | are adjusting it. | jonas21 wrote: | In other words, Sony isn't charging more (in dollars). Your | euro/pound/yen is just worth less than it was a year ago. | | https://www.google.com/finance/quote/EUR- | USD?comparison=JPY-... | midislack wrote: | I didn't even realize the PS5 was out, did anybody even buy the | PS4? | detaro wrote: | "did anybody even buy the second-best selling stationary game | console ever", really? | ip26 wrote: | "Nobody buys those anymore, they're always sold out" | Firmwarrior wrote: | To be fair, it's been impossible to buy a PS5 since it came | out unless you're willing to really jump through hoops for it | gambiting wrote: | That's something that people who have no interest in buying | one say - because if you did, you'd find that they have | been in stock for months from various retailers and it's | not an issue to buy one at all. | Firmwarrior wrote: | ah, fair enough.. I gave up on trying to buy a PS5 about | six months ago when I "won" the Newegg Shuffle and bought | an RTX 3080 TI at a huge markup | Aunche wrote: | Out of a whim, I checked the Playstation store, and they | actually had the PS5 in stock. I'm paying some extra for | the blu-ray edition with Horizon bundle, but it's still | cheaper than scalpers. | Gracana wrote: | I and two of my friends bought PS5s. It took some effort, | but it wasn't too bad. We all got them within a month of | deciding to buy. I don't really disagree with what you're | saying though, you have to find an opportunity to buy and | then make the right moves to get one. | Nursie wrote: | Bought one a year ago here in Australia - went to an IRL | retailer (!) who said they would put us on the list for | their next shipment. About a week later, we got it. | | Seems there are still ongoing issues though. | jamiek88 wrote: | You should look up the concept of bubbles. | | Because you are in a serious bubble if you aren't just being | facetious. | | Or was this one of those 'I don't even have a tv' weird flexes. | midislack wrote: | I'm not a teenager any more either, could have something to | do with it. | rowanG077 wrote: | I wonder if it uses liquid metal. | scorpios77 wrote: | latchkey wrote: | Semi related, I have a huge number of BC-250's [0]. Now that ETH | mining is over, I'm looking for something interesting to do with | them. Not looking to sell them, but that might be possible at | quantity, I'd rather work with you to run something on them. They | iPXE boot Ubuntu. GigE. No onboard storage, but have 16gigs of | ram. Easily tuned for performance. | | Thoughts? | | [0] https://www.techspot.com/news/93980-14800-asrock-mining- | rig-... | speps wrote: | Contribute to the different volunteer computing projects: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_volunteer_computing_pr... | latchkey wrote: | Good suggestion, I reached out folding. Let's see what | happens. | tekno45 wrote: | stable diffusion hosting | liminalsunset wrote: | How well did the economics of this kind of an operation end up | working out? Seems like these were a fairly recent development, | so they really wouldn't have had much time, say, the 500 days | cited to reach profitability. | | It would be interesting to see how the GPU driver side of this | works. If they boot Ubuntu, what kind of GPU driver is required | to run the GPU? Is it open source amdgpu compatible? | | In any case, these would work rather well for some kind of VPS | server hosting or maybe more like dedicated server hosting, | given the density/form factor. That is assuming the driver | situation doesn't preclude a choice of operating system... | latchkey wrote: | They run standard Ubuntu 20.04 and can be upgraded to 22 or | whatever else comes along. | | Standard AMD Ubuntu driver (21.50.2.50002, but can be | upgraded as well). Heavily modified the AMD packaging to | minimize it to just the necessary files because these iPXE | boot (sadly, still around ~60megs). | | The bigger issue is that they don't have any onboard | persistent storage (could be added, but the speed is limited | to about 500mbit/s) and they are only gigE. | | Running strictly from memory, they are also prone to memory | corruption. Odd, I know, but I see it at the scale we | operate. Thus, they need to be treated as interruptible | machines. Reboot to running is about 60s. | | So, quite a few limitations, but still good hardware, if we | can find a good workload for them. | ThePowerOfFuet wrote: | > Running strictly from memory, they are also prone to | memory corruption. Odd, I know, but I see it at the scale | we operate. Thus, they need to be treated as interruptible | machines. Reboot to running is about 60s. | | This would be an instant dealbreaker for me. To quote the | inimitable Sweet Brown, _ain't nobody got time for that_. | [1] | | 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ain't_Nobody_Got_Time_for_ | That | throwagpu wrote: | Do these support graphics of any kind? Can you run a test | with Vulkan? Can the boards run windows and correctly start | DirectX? | latchkey wrote: | It is effectively this GPU with RDNA1: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_RX_5000_series | | I don't know about Windows, but at this scale, I doubt it | would be easy to iPXE boot this many blades over gigE. | liminalsunset wrote: | Is this memory corruption you speak of silent, or simply | fatal? | | This could be a significant problem if the workload | requires some form of integrity, since the hardware could | be quietly introducing errors into otherwise normal looking | computing | | I remember having this issue with overclocked AMD cards | mining too, where it was common to try to undervolt or | overclock the memory. I wonder if any of those tuning tools | work here, and if it would be possible to underclock the | memory to increase its stability. | | Either way, this echoes some of the sentiment I generally | had around hardware intended for mining, including the | bitcoin branded 2000 watt power supplies built with bottom | of the barrel parts. Most hardware built for mining was | built with exactly one purpose in mind, and has significant | warts when it is attempted to be repurposed. The kind of | constraints and requirements that cryptomining presents are | really quite different from those of most modern IT | systems. | latchkey wrote: | Silent. It'll be things like you can't ssh into the box | any more or you log in and can't reboot it. Likely due to | ethash mining, which is heavily RAM based and the | voltage/clocking. Luckily, it is easy to change those | settings to build more stability. I have a process that | auto tunes the machines for known instabilities... but | the weird silent ram corruption ones are much harder to | detect. | | You're totally right that mining hardware was majority | single purpose, especially at large scale. Those PSU's | did the job, but yes, in general, hand soldered in China | and prone to do weird things. | | It certainly puts a hamper into what can be done with it | now that the merge has happened, but I'd like to keep | trying to find uses! | liminalsunset wrote: | I wonder if these have any chance of running TensorFlow | or other ML applications. The problem would again, be | that there is no local storage and thus the 4GB Stable | Diffusion model might be a bit much, but once loaded, | perhaps it may work well for that kind of non critical | application. | | I think one of the reasons GPU memory corruption may | cause the system to freeze is because the GPU and main | memory are unified on APUs, which would probably explain | the machines being difficult to login or use sometimes | latchkey wrote: | It is effectively this GPU with RDNA1: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_RX_5000_series | | Yes, shared memory is definitely the cause. | BaculumMeumEst wrote: | It's interesting that they didn't do a big horse and pony show | for new models of consoles these days. Historically console | manufacturers would use updates like these to push a new "slim" | model or whatever, but nowadays it's done without much fanfare. | Perhaps they sell enough either way that there's no point in | making a spectacle of it. | | I always like to wait for the first revision of hardware to buy | in, since better thermals generally mean better longevity of the | overall hardware. | chippiewill wrote: | It's probably just too early in the product lifecycle for a | slim model. The PS4 just barely eaked one out at the 2 year | mark because the XBone and PS4 were pretty dated hardware when | they released, the PS3 took 3 years, PS2 took 5 years The slim | "PS One" took 6 years. | | Capacity for die shrinks is probably a bit tight at the moment | given the chip shortages and the fact that Apple are basically | buying all TSMC production capacity on stuff that's vaguely | new. The 6nm process they've just picked up for the PS5 refresh | was coming online when the PS5 was first released. I imagine | we'll see a true slim when Sony / AMD are able to get enough | capacity on the 5nm or 4nm process. | paulryanrogers wrote: | Sometimes they drop ports or backward compatibility though. | monocasa wrote: | They update internals many times without changing the case | design generally. The reason is cost reduction. Smaller dies | mean more dies per wafer. Thermal reduction implies you can get | away with a less beefy power supply and thermal management | solution, etc. | Sephr wrote: | You can't make a 'slim' model as easily with these minor | efficiency improvements. | mikepurvis wrote: | Indeed, and there will absolutely be a "real" slim version, | probably in the next year or so. The existing case is massive | and mostly empty-- so it's really a matter of getting the | thermals under control, whether via a better airflow design | or by die size reduction and therefore power/heat savings at | the source. | goosedragons wrote: | That's because this isn't a new slim model, just a minor | internal revision. These never got big fanfare. There's like 10 | different PS2 revisions for example and a similar number of PS3 | revisions. Highlighting that you removed a handful of LEDs to | save 43 cents on each unit isn't usually done. Occasionally | there is a bigish difference like the original PS2s having | their PCMIA slot replaced with a HDD slot or the slimline PS2 | getting an integrated power supply near the end but often it | wasn't visible unless you opened the unit and compared. | | The only time I remember people seriously caring was for the | 360 where every new revision was speculated to be the fix for | RROD. | bpye wrote: | It does have lower power requirements though - so it seems | like they could have made it somewhat smaller but decided not | to? | rbanffy wrote: | Retooling also has a cost. And the lower power with the | precious heat sink and fan can make the console more | reliable, reducing warranty expenses. This is all a guess, | of course. I don't have any of these numbers. | eterps wrote: | Unfortunate product code name, I thought the article was about | Oberon or Oberon+ https://oberon-lang.github.io | sp332 wrote: | There are older things named Oberon. | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberon | bitwize wrote: | That's all wonderful, but useless if you are unable to buy one. | gambiting wrote: | That is nothing more than a meme at this point - at least here | in UK they have been in stock for months and it's not an issue | to buy one whatsoever. | deanc wrote: | Stores here in Finland are currently shipping pre-orders from | January. There is a shortage and it's real. | gambiting wrote: | That's super weird. Sounds like whoever is the Finnish PS5 | distributor needs a solid kick in the bum, as there isn't a | shortage in other countries. | Rapzid wrote: | Everytime I check Amazon, newegg, and best buy(store and | online) they have been out of stock. I'm on Amazon's invite | to purchase list. | bdcravens wrote: | In the US they typically aren't available at the typical | retail locations. | throwntoday wrote: | You can buy direct from Sony | dajonker wrote: | Please tell me where to look, I'm currently in the UK and I | can't find one available anywhere? | wmf wrote: | You need to follow something like | https://twitter.com/PS5StockAlertUK | bdcravens wrote: | I was able to buy one from WalMart's site last month (fulfilled | by a third party). They appear to still be available. | ip26 wrote: | With far more die per wafer, it should help with that problem. | croes wrote: | Based on location or availability? | [deleted] | awill wrote: | I expected Sony to wait until at least N5 | wmf wrote: | Would N5 ever be cheaper than N6? | Veliladon wrote: | N6 has the exact same design rules as N7 which means a die | shrink is about as relatively close to trivial as it gets when | it comes to dropping a half-node. | mindcrime wrote: | Who else was hoping this was about a port of Oberon[1] to the | PS5? | | [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberon_(operating_system) | sedatk wrote: | I'm an outlier: I thought it was a re-implementation of Adobe | Photoshop 5 using Oberon programming language. | | (Tidbit: Photoshop was first written in Pascal, the ancestor of | Oberon) | deadbunny wrote: | My guess? Less than the number of finger I have. | ComputerGuru wrote: | On HN? Almost certainly more. I was wondering what PS5 could | possibly mean in the context of OS dev! ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-09-25 23:00 UTC)