[HN Gopher] The 'Epic of Gilgamesh' is not the oldest surviving ...
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The 'Epic of Gilgamesh' is not the oldest surviving work of
literature
Author : dbrereton
Score : 24 points
Date : 2022-09-28 16:10 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (talesoftimesforgotten.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (talesoftimesforgotten.com)
| bananarchist wrote:
| It sounds like the disagreement here is over the definition of
| literature. I generally regard wiktionary's fourth entry (high
| fiction) to be its definition, whereas this seems somewhere
| between that and the second (collected creative writing of a
| culture). I was shaking my head at most of the examples given.
| Now I see we are operating from two different foundations.
|
| Maybe this is why so many arguments open with the cliche "Webster
| defines..."
| shireboy wrote:
| If you want to converse with me, first define your terms -
| Voltaire
|
| I was taught that Gilgamesh wasn't the first written work of
| literature, but the first written work of epic story. I don't
| know if this is true, but many of the other works cited are
| biographies, proverbs, etc.
| faeriechangling wrote:
| I don't mind that cliche at all, it's far less painful for
| people to give a definition of a word than to witness a painful
| argument where two people define a word in a different way and
| then criticise the incoherence of the other's argument.
| nottorp wrote:
| Yeah, most of that list is life advice and religious texts.
| Then what comes is ... proto Ghilgamesh.
|
| On the other hand, apparently self improvement books are older
| than the first fiction :)
| forbiddenvoid wrote:
| It's hard to separate "I think your definition of literature is
| wrong" and "I think your application of that definition is
| wrong."
| Maursault wrote:
| > the disagreement here is over the definition of literature
|
| Deeply, but though we can make distinction between a modern
| best seller and Brian's grammatically incorrect graffiti,
| "Romanes eunt domus,"[1], in essence they are both literature,
| even if the latter is fictional and framed within the larger
| contemporary story, because Brian _wrote_ a message
| representative of some language.
|
| Literature is defined by writing, and writing is defined by
| symbols representing language. Always given less emphasis than
| the ancient cave art found in caves all over the world are the
| abstract symbols that very often accompany the graphic
| depictions of animals. For all we know some of those symbols
| may mean, "this tastes good," and regardless of being unable to
| decipher them, they could still be the oldest extant
| literature[2] so long as they could represent language and tell
| a story, no matter how primitive a story.
|
| Before the Egyptian hieroglyphs and Mayan pictographs were
| deciphered, there was no question that they had specific
| meaning behind them. Though in the strictest sense, pictography
| is not an alphabet, it still conveys specific messages in some
| once spoken language. In my opinion, if there are any abstract
| symbols that represent even the most primitive message, if it's
| clear there is even some vague attempt at communication, then
| it will still broadly fall under the category of literature,
| regardless of ever being deciphered.
|
| While ultimately I agree that the epic of Gilgamesh is the
| earliest _extant_ high, advanced, or complex literature, I
| think whether a written story still exists or not is an
| arbitrary distinction. The fact that Gilgamesh exists in the
| literary form that it does necessarily means earlier examples
| of high literature once existed but are unknown and likely
| lost. Between Aeschylus, Sophocles and Euripides there were
| over 300 plays written of which 33 survive. That the missing
| plays no longer exist should not diminish the fact that these
| were, in fact, written and were undoubtedly literature.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_ite_domum
|
| [2] https://www.openculture.com/2019/03/40000-year-old-
| symbols-f... note: Though von Petzinger herself clarifies in
| her TED Talk that the common ancient symbols are not writing, I
| think she's hedging for some reason (probably professional
| caution) contradicting what her own research shows and
| statements she makes immediately previously.
| jdmichal wrote:
| From wiktionary:
|
| > 1. The body of all written works.
|
| > 2. The collected creative writing of a nation, people,
| group or culture.
|
| > 3. (usually preceded by the) All the papers, treatises etc.
| published in academic journals on a particular subject.
|
| > 4. Written fiction of a high standard.
|
| So it sounds like you're basically describing definition (1).
| I make this judgement because "this tastes good" is not
| _creative_ or _fictional_ writing, which are key points in
| definitions (2) and (4).
| not2b wrote:
| So if 4. is the definition, the Epic of Gilgamesh is first,
| because it's in a different class than what came before.
| But if 1. is the definition, the article is clearly right
| as there are older works.
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