[HN Gopher] Apple's ad business set to boom on the back of its o... ___________________________________________________________________ Apple's ad business set to boom on the back of its own anti- tracking crackdown Author : elashri Score : 581 points Date : 2022-10-03 16:24 UTC (6 hours ago) (HTM) web link (adguard.com) (TXT) w3m dump (adguard.com) | drawingthesun wrote: | As a Mac and iPhone user I am annoyed as this means I'll have to | start migrating away from Apple over the next few years, paying | for premium product only for the os and native apps to start | getting adverts is atrocious and cannot be rewarded with my | continued support. | | Edit: I just checked the stocks app on my MacBook M1 Max and | there are unrelated adverts alongside finance news items. | | I am appalled and regretting my my m1 max (64gb ram, 4tb ssd) | purchase for the first time. Up till now its has been one my of | best tech purchases in my life. Not anymore. | | This is a sign of pure greed. The most profitable company wants | even more profits and will damage its brand to do so. | bloggie wrote: | Yes this is exactly why I switched from Samsung to Apple after | they added ads to the Wallet app. | freeAgent wrote: | The problem is that there's now nowhere to go, unless you can | deal with using Linux as your daily driver desktop OS. I have | tried many times and have never succeeded, but if it gets bad | enough I may have to find a way eventually. | danielheath wrote: | It's definitely difficult at first - the loss of polish, and | the extra up-front setup to make it nice. | | If you do try again, my advice is: Play to the strengths of | the new OS. | | MacOS makes decisions for you (usually good ones), but you're | SOL if you don't like them. This culture affects native apps, | too. | | For me, getting good results out of Linux has been a question | of putting in more up-front work to figure out what I | actually want the computer to do. The result is... very | comfy. | cheeze wrote: | The big problem for me is that there just... isn't a way to | do a lot of things on Linux without a looot of effort. | | I use Linux as a daily, but I still have a windows computer | for all the things you can't do anywhere else. Random | executables that I (begrudgingly) need for work, life, etc. | | It's definitely getting better, but it's still not quite | there. I still need my windows computer for various things | that have no alternative. | thaumaturgy wrote: | I have been daily-driving Plasma (KDE) for ... eesh, at least | 5 years now, maybe 7. I can't remember the last time I booted | a Windows or Mac OS (for my own use). Plasma just keeps | getting better too. | | I use it as a generalist dev (so, interacting with lots of | different environments) as well as hobby & entertainment | (incl. photography). | | The biggest pain point IMO is lack of a good email | application. They're all aggravating in different ways. | | The initial getting-started process requires a bit of reading | to figure out hardware support and get a few things dialed | in. That's a little painful, but shouldn't be a deal-breaker | for dev types. | | If you want to jump ship from the Windows/Mac dichotomy, | check out Plasma. Runs great on Debian. Debian's less "sexy" | than other distros, but it's a great solution for the "I just | wanna get my work done" crowd. | drawingthesun wrote: | I would rather go back to cheaper computers and phones and | deal with ads than pay for extremely premium products and get | ads. | | I feel like an idiot buying a $7,000 aud computer to have the | native apps contain ads. | | It's disgusting. | nomel wrote: | Is ad blocking on Apple products not possible? I naively | assume some hosts file changes could clean it up. | cma wrote: | The problem for Apple is people with $7000 to blow on a | ocmputer are worth way, way more to advertisers than people | that spend $500. | grapescheesee wrote: | For an addition $1,000 you can purchase a lifetime ad-free | option for this laptop. (Apple ID specific and | nontransferable). | | Made in jest, but oddly nearing reality. | grecy wrote: | How do we go about blocking these ads? | | Sounds like we'll need OS level uBO. | | PS if you're serious, I'm interested in your m1 | drawingthesun wrote: | What I mean by the next few years is instead of upgrading | eventually to the M3 Max version of my laptop I'll buy | something not Apple. If Apple continue down this path and | don't do a reversal on this move. | thr0wawayf00 wrote: | > This is a sign of pure greed. The most profitable company | wants even more profits and will damage its brand to do so. | | This a feature of the system, not a bug. Companies have to keep | growing because analysts and the money people decide that's how | the system works. | DrBenCarson wrote: | To play devil's advocate...if you believe Apple really stands by | their privacy values, why wouldn't they start an ads business? If | they feel they can deliver ads and protect customer data, they | _should_ start an ad business. They owe it to shareholders and to | their customers. | | If they don't do it, someone else will, and they ultimately don't | trust third parties with their customers' data (also being a | massive corporation, they don't like other companies generating | revenue off the backs of their customers). | | If you believe Apple is genuine about their commitment to | privacy, this should be encouraging news. If you don't believe | that, then this does appear to be questionable at best (boxing | out third parties so they can profit off the data themselves) | amelius wrote: | > If they feel they can deliver ads and protect customer data, | they should start an ad business. They owe it to shareholders | and to their customers. | | Collecting data about people is already an infringement of | privacy in itself. | | It doesn't matter here if you keep that data out of the hands | of yet other people. | magic_hamster wrote: | Profiling the user based on their seemingly private usage of | the device is a breach of privacy. This is the big issue. It's | not okay to be all for privacy when it's other corporations' | tracking methods, but employ the same methods for yourself. | | What Apple basically did was say "tracking users for ads is | great, and we realized we don't have to share this data with | other ad companies, so good for us." | | Apple can collect device data for technical purposes, which is | borderline, but more acceptable. | xvector wrote: | Anticompetitive to deny others the ability to run ads on your | platform. Apple's gonna be hit big time with antitrust. | DrBenCarson wrote: | Yeah, that's not true. | | Apple doesn't stop anyone from running ads. They stop | companies from collecting and aggregating data across | multiple apps without explicit user consent. | xvector wrote: | Yes, but it's almost certainly not legal for Apple to | aggregate across multiple apps while not allowing for other | advertisers to do the same. | m00x wrote: | Yet they do it themselves :) | | It's a smart business decision. Basically "If you want to | have deep tracking on users using iPhones, you need to go | through us". | CharlesW wrote: | > _Anticompetitive to deny others the ability to run ads on | your platform._ | | Yeah, if that were true it'd be pretty bad. (It's not true.) | [deleted] | saiya-jin wrote: | DrBenCarson wrote: | How can a product be overpriced if more than 50% of the [US] | market buys and uses that product? | | You might want to reconsider who's doing mental gymnastics | lol | | source: https://9to5mac.com/2022/09/02/iphone-us-market- | share/ | account-5 wrote: | Do they buy it outright of pay a fraction of the cost | upfront then overpay for it on expensive monthly contracts? | I very much doubt most of the 50% US market aren't tied | into 24 month contracts. | minhazm wrote: | Why does that matter? It's an interest free loan and they | eventually do pay for it. We don't criticize people for | buying cars with loans or even houses. When we purchased | my dads car we were going to buy it cash but we got a 6 | yr loan at 0% interest so it was a no-brainer to do that. | Additionally most carriers now are offering incentives | when you're on their payment plans. If your argument is | that you should ditch your current carrier and use some | cheap MVNO service instead then that's something entirely | different. | pb7 wrote: | Does it matter? There is no such thing as "overpriced" | for products that fly off the shelves except only in | one's personal opinion. | novok wrote: | That is only a few markets, in one of the wealthiest | countries of the world. In the rest of the world android is | pretty much +%90 and iphones are luxury goods, like a | designer handbag or a porsche. | | Apple is definitely the Porsche or Mercedes of computing. | DrBenCarson wrote: | Apple might be, but iOS is not. | | I can assure you 50% of America doesn't have a Porsche or | Mercedes lol | | iPhone is just that much better than its nearest | competitors. | pb7 wrote: | Neither of which are overpriced, they just target a | different segment of wealth with a different set of | features and build quality. | jdmdmdmdmd wrote: | I don't think it's gymnastics. The last part about being | "genuine" is a stretch, but the fundamental point they're | making is reasonable or at least worth discussing. It's | relevant to the discussions of gambling and the lottery, for | example. I don't appreciate Apple and their lock-in | (especially the "we're protecting you" marketing) but the | case for "the lesser evil" of advertising is worth | discussing. I actually want Apple to start pushing ads, not | because of the reason given by GP but because it will almost | definitely kill Apple. I think they know that and will go | only as far as they know they can without giving up their | brand which is ultimately their most valuable asset. | fullshark wrote: | I actually don't care that much about the privacy stuff, you | are insane if you don't think Apple tracks user metrics and | device data for at the very least business intelligence. I care | about the UX being worsened. | pbronez wrote: | They use some pretty sophisticated tech to do this in a way | that respects user privacy: | | https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/Differential_Privacy_Over. | .. | DrBenCarson wrote: | Oh 100% they collect and track user metrics, but I do think | they abide by the answer you give when any Apple device asks | you if you want to send metrics to the mothership at setup. | | It's also a matter of how well the data is anonymized. Given | they've gone through the trouble of adding private email | proxy features, secure web proxy features, and lockdown mode, | I don't think it's lip service, but that's just my opinion. | bornfreddy wrote: | > Google's Manifest V3 -- Chrome's new extension-building | platform -- severely limits the functionality of ad blockers. | Though, ad blockers won't capitulate without a fight -- that is | as much as we can promise you. In a world's first, AdGuard has | recently published an ad-blocking extension built on Manifest 3. | | That's... awful? Building an ad blocker on top of Mv3 is exactly | what Google is hoping for. If nobody built an ad blocker for it, | how much market share do you think Chrome would keep? | yladiz wrote: | Not as many people care about, or even really know of, ad | blockers as you might think. | smoldesu wrote: | That's funny, I remember people saying the same thing when | Safari limited support for browser extensions: | https://github.com/el1t/uBlock-Safari/issues/158 | jdmdmdmdmd wrote: | >how much market share do you think Chrome would keep? | | The entire share of users who don't use AdBlock. The other | users don't give them revenue anyway. | rebeccaskinner wrote: | I've seen this coming for a while, and I'm honestly not sure what | the next move to make is for those of us who have done as much as | we can to escape the hoards of advertisers. I have no particular | love for iOS, but I switched to an iPhone years ago to escape the | google ecosystem. There isn't really a plausible third option at | this point. Even if Linux phones had usable hardware, more of the | world is moving toward relying on apps that only run on DRMed | systems with signed software from the data collecting duopoly. I | can't deposit a check or order a taxi with a rooted phone, and | the trend is getting worse over time- not better. | | I suppose the one up-side to the situation is that there's not | much point in even trying to spend the time figuring out how to | root a device, or dealing with egregiously under-performing open | smart phone hardware, and it might be possible to save some money | going back to a dumb phone. | saiya-jin wrote: | I recommended recently to my wife to buy Apple mini 13 as her | next phone, after both of us being forever on Android. | | What a disappointment, she likes actually 1 feature - photos, | and the rest is subpar experience compared to her old galaxy | S10 (almost 4 year old phone). But then she likes my android | photos similarly, since I have 10x zoom which is great for kids | always running around or for hiking. Its not even first weeks | of her use of Apple, she has it few months. I can browse on my | samsung S22 ultra random internet without being swarmed with | ads and tracking (firefox and ublock origin, something Apple | phones will clearly _never_ have). | | And all the rest. It has fingerprint sensor for unlocking, | instead of ridiculously shitty faceid which doesn't work with | masks (she is a doctor so does wear them often). It often | doesn't work even without masks, ie non-ideal light conditions | like right now (evening and dimmer lights). Comparable S22 is | much nicer phone to look at, to hold, to carry, to charge, and | to work with. | | I regret recommending it to her at this point, I too was | convinced by Apple's effective PR. But quality is just not | there, the devices are worse, bigger in size with smaller | screen, uglier, heavier, software is meh, raw CPU power is | useless on its own when device is so limited. I don't believe a | zilch of Apple's PR about privacy, as I didn't for the ads and | various other PR talk, actions are the only thing that matter. | | And after reading this topic, its clear I will continue | shopping in Android's non-chinese realm for a very long time. I | don't consider my device secure from state actors, and neither | is Apple, so we act accordingly. Thus, no added value in Apple | devices, just plenty of marketing, similar to say Hermes or | Louis Vuitton purses. Nobody believes those are worth 500$ or | 5,000$ to manufacture, yet rich people buy them. | hk__2 wrote: | > I can browse on my samsung S22 ultra random internet | without being swarmed with ads and tracking (firefox and | ublock origin, something Apple phones will clearly never | have). | | If you are ok with using Safari instead of Firefox, that's | something that has been possible since 2015 on iOS [1]. | | > instead of ridiculously shitty faceid which doesn't work | with masks | | It does since iOS 15.4 (March 2022 [2]); I use it every day. | | > It often doesn't work even without masks, ie non-ideal | light conditions like right now (evening and dimmer lights) | | Light has nothing to do with this because FaceID works with | infrared: I'm able to unlock my iPhone in the dark with no | issue at all. You're probably holding it wrong [3]. | | > But quality is just not there, the devices are worse, | bigger in size with smaller screen, [...] heavier | | I fail to find an iPhone 13 that's bigger than your Samsung | S22 Ultra. The Pro Max is 0.2mm wider but 2.1mm less tall and | 1.2mm thiner (163.3 x 77.9 x 8.9 mm [4] vs. 160.8 x 78.1 x | 7.7 mm [5]). It does have a smaller screen-to-size ratio | (87.4% vs. 90.2%) and is slightly heavier (240g vs. 228g -- | not sure how noticeable this is). | | > the devices are worse, [...], uglier, [...], software is | meh | | That part is highly subjective. I personally find the S22 | Ultra very ugly but that's an opinion, not a fact. | | [1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-34173732 | | [2]: https://www.businessinsider.com/guides/tech/face-id- | with-mas... | | [3]: https://www.macrumors.com/2017/09/13/how-iphone-x-face- | id-wo... | | [4]: https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s22_ultra_5g-112 | 51.p... | | [5]: | https://www.gsmarena.com/apple_iphone_13_pro_max-11089.php | pkulak wrote: | You can't deposit a check or order a cab with a dumb phone | either. Might as well put Calyx on something and at least have | Firefox and OpenStreetMap. | Tijdreiziger wrote: | I _want_ to be able to (among other things) order cabs and | deposit checks using my smartphone, though. (Well, maybe not | that last one, seeing as checks don't exist here in the | Netherlands anymore.) | | Going back a decade in terms of functionality is hardly an | answer. | Grustaf wrote: | Why can't you call a cab with a dumb phone? | rebeccaskinner wrote: | I've thought about going down that path, and I still might, | but at the moment I'm very frustrated by the state of | hardware and general support for a lot of the user and | privacy respecting options to the point where it's hard to | believe it'll actually be worth my time to try to get | something like that set up. | cwkoss wrote: | We need to start a social movement to punish advertisers. Ads | are pernicious and pervasive thought manipulation which | systemically decrease the life satisfaction of nearly every | person in society. It is a cancer. | | We should strive to make anyone who gets manipulated into | changing their behavior based on an ad they saw feel ashamed | and stupid for falling for their tricks, and angry at the | advertisers for manipulating them. | kibwen wrote: | Say it louder: ads are socially-acceptable, corporate- | sponsored brainwashing. | thr0wawayf00 wrote: | > We should strive to make anyone who gets manipulated into | changing their behavior based on an ad they saw feel ashamed | and stupid for falling for their tricks, | | This sounds great, but: | | A) how do you know/can you prove that you've been | manipulated? | | B) How do we know that we haven't all been manipulated? | (After all, millions of people bought into this ecosystem to | get away from ads, I think every person who's angry has a | case that they've been manipulated) | | and C) where is this social movement gonna take place? Social | media, the bastion of internet advertising? | | The answer is make tech less important in our lives. There's | been a pattern going back decades that technology grows in | scale and utility and eventually becomes corporatized to that | point that it generates more income to work against its | users. The answer is to live a lower tech life. Less time on | phones and apps and more time in the real world. | kajaktum wrote: | >We need to start a social movement to punish advertisers. | Ads are pernicious and pervasive thought manipulation which | systemically decrease the life satisfaction of nearly every | person in society. It is a cancer. | | Will never happen until we can dispel the notion that human | are free agents. People will never give up this believe about | themselves. Meanwhile, it's proven to be effective by virtue | of it being a trillion dollar industry or something. Same | thing with gambling. | kornhole wrote: | Linux laptops are lovely at this point. Linux phones are for | the more adventurous and tolerant hackers, and I love them for | working out the issues. Android without any Google is the best | handset option for most people. Degoogling can be accomplished | in many ways such as using the universal android debloater | found on github, or installing an Android fork such as | Graphene, Calyx, or Lineage. Nextcloud is the most | comprehensive replacement to many of the services and | synchronization such as contacts, calendar, photos, files, | bookmarks, passwords, phone location, news/RSS, podcasts, | music, tasks, and notes. It can also host E2E chats and video | calls. | fsflover wrote: | > Even if Linux phones had usable hardware, more of the world | is moving toward relying on apps that only run on DRMed systems | with signed software from the data collecting duopoly. | | This is not a technical but a political problem. People owning | (GNU-)Linux-phones (or just caring about the future of mobile | computing) should demand from the companies that they do not | force everyone into monopolies. | amelius wrote: | you mean demand from governments. | seydor wrote: | So how much will you have to pay to view Apple Ads? | reaperducer wrote: | OK, that was actually funny. | gumby wrote: | Is there any way to block Apple's own ads today? | | I wonder if Apple will also try to prevent that or will just | figure it's a small enough number that allowing it will help them | with the nerds. Informally, when I see something on someone | else's device, ad blocking doesn't appear to be popular. I can't | imagine using the web without it. | rchaud wrote: | The lure of that sweet, sweet ad money finally takes down the | FAANG member that many said would be immune to its charms. | | Apple didn't cut Facebook out of the picture for pro-privacy, | 'user-centric' reasons. This is the same playbook they used in | 2010 when they kneecapped Flash. It wasn't about battery life or | viruses then, it was to clear a path for the App Store to be the | focal point for app and game development. | [deleted] | bfrog wrote: | I mean the main differentiator of Apple was the lack of Ads and | tracking compared to google for me. If Apple starts hammering ads | and providing tracking data and selling spots like google does | with admob/android then is it really worth the premium anymore? | smoldesu wrote: | If the main difference between Apple and Google is selling your | data, are they really all that different in the first place? | Apple already collects plenty of telemetry from your devices | whether you opt-in or not. OCSP sends data back to Apple's | servers every time you tap an app, that's non-negotiable. They | go out of their way to limit your traffic filtering | capabilities solely so they can phone-home. The rabbit hole is | pretty deep, and doesn't favor _any_ of these FAANG faces. | alex_young wrote: | Apple has astutely observed that they don't need a bunch of | tracking cookies to track you across sites and services if they | already have your account on your phone and access to everything | directly. | | Google has something like this moat within their search engine | dominance, likewise Facebook does for social, but both of them | are rather limited slices in comparison with the OS itself. | | So, we arrive at this junction - Apple lobbies, for the consumer | of course, to prevent tracking across the web, and conveniently | limits their number of competitors to one, that being Microsoft | which seems rather inept at this advertising thing anyway. | | It's hard to root for Google or Facebook here, but it's also | pretty obvious that our friends in Cupertino don't have our best | interests in mind. | servercobra wrote: | I'd say Google should be in a pretty good spot with Android + | search engine. | alex_young wrote: | That's a good observation, but Google really doesn't control | things the same way Apple does since they aren't directly | distributing Android for the most part. It would be hard to | pull off that kind of synchronization with the handset | ecosystem. | paulmd wrote: | Google has very direct control over Google Play internal | services which are effectively system-level services on | android, and collects at least as much data on those users | as Apple does on theirs. | | The 1% of users running some custom Android build aren't | really relevant here, Google scrapes up plenty. | oneplane wrote: | While a bit weird, I can understand that you can do ads without | tracking (perhaps without profiling as well) and this doesn't | always mean that Apple becoming one with the capitalistic | singularity of advertising business requires them to also be | tracking people. | | The same goes for plenty of forms of telemetry; it doesn't equal | individual tracking or tracking at all (before someone comes in | with a cohort theory). | | Some things like predictive text entry (Microsoft did/does that? | And grammarly and Gboard) have an easy implementation where you | ignore privacy and simply dump all user entry onto a server and | do the heavy lifting there. Apple's version of that might be Siri | recordings when recognition fails to improve that, but I haven't | seen it with ads or text entry (yet?). | | At some point no company should be doing any of this without | homomorphic encryption or a good level of sanitisation. All of | Apple's telemetry that you can inspect (either locally or simply | by adding a proxy) is well-anonymised. It doesn't hide what | specific binaries are causing errors as that would defeat the | point of measuring reliability, and when you connect to someone, | they will know what IP connected to them, but other than that, | it's not as bad as people tend to make it out to be. | innagadadavida wrote: | We saw what happened to Apple's Siri search initiative that was | started around 2014. If that is any indicator, don't have much | hopes for this one either. | | Apple is being very hypocritical here. Privacy matters until they | tell you it's ok, don't worry about it. With Budd Trible moving | on, I guess this is the state of affairs. Sad. | mabbo wrote: | Apple will just wind up like Amazon: cannibalizing the customer | trust now that they have market power. | | Consider: Amazon has the majority of e-commerce sales today in | the west. This is largely in part of decisions makes 20 years ago | to allow honest reviews by real customers, both good and bad, | earning strong customer trust. Now they're making money by | selling the top spot on their search results and calling it | "advertising". It's not. It's the sale of all that customer trust | they spent 20 years building up. And the money they make on | selling that trust is massive. | | Consider: Apple is loved by its customers. They trust them. Apple | means quality, security, and all the other good things they want. | They're also at 30% of global mobile phone sales- massive market | power. | | Now it's time to start selling off that customer trust for | profit. | | Being Apple, the first move is to attack the entire online ad | industry via privacy improvements- I'm not saying it's a bad | thing that they did it, but I am suggesting they didn't do it for | anything other than profit motive. Next, join the industry with a | competitor in the space that takes advantage of all the things | Apple knows about their customers. Trade the trust they've built | up for a payout in cash. | | It was either that or try to invent a new product. Since Steve | Jobs died that hasn't gone very well. | [deleted] | frazbin wrote: | err nope, now that they've got an Si lead and control teh whole | vertical, they can abuse us all the want; we literally have | nowhere to go. | hatuthecat wrote: | Apple Watch was probably the largest launch since Jobs died, | and now it's the dominant smart watch. Apple Silicon breathed | new life into the mac lineup. AirPods have become the standard | bluetooth earbuds. I think apple has been doing great with new | products recently (after struggling in the late 2010s, as shown | by their extreme emphasis on services instead of products then) | and I hope they keep that momentum instead of compromising on | ads. | [deleted] | moolcool wrote: | Speaking of Apple, Apple Watch, and data collection, how long | do you think it will be until an insurance company subpoenas | Apple for it's health data? "You said you didn't have a | preexisting condition on your application, but you knew you | had an arithmia, because your watch told you so. Therefore, | we have no choice but to deny your claim" | JimDabell wrote: | > how long do you think it will be until an insurance | company subpoenas Apple for it's health data? | | If you have iOS 12 or later and you have 2FA set up, your | Apple Health data is E2E encrypted. | nominusllc wrote: | Are pre-existing conditions still grounds to deny coverage? | moolcool wrote: | I'm not an expert, but I think it's enough to change your | premium. | math-dev wrote: | In Australia, unfortunately yes (upto 12 months) | novok wrote: | IMO I don't really trust amazon reviews. I use amazon because | they have a very effective shipping and return network and | system, with a very broad set of items that pretty much nobody | else reproduces. It's their fulfillment network essentially. | Order from random retailers (even with shopify) and you're | reminded why amazon is in the lead, with gotchas in return | polices that get pretty irritating. Order from target / walmart | and you notice how much is missing. | | Amazon wins because it's more like visa or a physical goods | internet than a specific store. | timmytokyo wrote: | Tim Cook was asked about advertising and privacy a couple weeks | ago. Here's his answer. Take from it what you will. | | "Digital advertising is not a bad thing. We've never said | digital advertising is a bad thing. What is not good is | vacuuming up people's data when they're not doing so on an | informed basis. That's what is bad. And so we try to put the | user in the driver seat there to own the data." | | https://youtu.be/sdvzYtgmIjs?t=3717 | amelius wrote: | Driver seat as in: we'll show you an annoying popup asking | for consent every time you are least prepared for it. | apienx wrote: | "Privacy means people know what they're signing up for, in plain | language, and repeatedly." - Steve "Newspeak" Jobs | | Apple doesn't care about what cyberlibertarians think about their | business practices. Baking in ads won't affect sales (might even | prop it up if used to subsidize devices). | resfirestar wrote: | After reading the article, I still don't understand the exception | Apple purportedly gets from its tracking rules. As I understand | it, Amazon is allowed to use activity in the Kindle app to show | personalized ads in the Amazon Shopping app without using the ATT | prompt. Isn't that the same thing as Apple using News app | activity to personalize ads in the App Store? | | The part that is unfair is that no one but Apple gets to have an | App Store or process IAPs, which has always been the problem with | iOS. Trying to make it about ATT just seems like a red herring. | Spooky23 wrote: | It's Apple, so any critique draws attention. | | Long game, a successful Apple ad business creates bad | incentives and is likely bad for customers. As evidenced by the | AppStore really being a front door for the worst kind of | skinner-box gaming, Apple will choose cash over any overriding | principle. | jahabrewer wrote: | > ... I still don't understand the exception Apple purportedly | gets from its tracking rules. | | As Ben Thompson has been shouting, it's because Apple has a | very convenient definition of "tracking". | tehlike wrote: | Apple is blocking conversion tracking for third parties. | | Think of this: 1.Fb shows an ad for angry birds 2. user | installs the app 3. user opens the app and makes a ping to fb | to tell user with idfa xyz opened the app. | | The problem is not that only apple gets (2), but it is that | because it gets (2), it thinks it should be able to dictate how | (3) happens. Since apple is the only one doing (2), it puts | everyone else at a disadvantage. | | And since apple doesn't have web ads business, it sees no | problem killing that altogether through att as well. | gardenhedge wrote: | Couldn't 3 just be done on the backend? User opens app, ping | to app's own service which pings FB. Then apple can't block | it | querulous wrote: | the mechanism isn't important. what apple restricts is | access to any kind of cross app identifier like the idfa | unless the user explicitly opts in. sketchier platforms use | device fingerprinting but apple also forbids that under | it's terms | | the only way to do cross app tracking in ios without the | user opting in and without violating apple policy is via | explicitly associating accounts across apps either via | oauth or some kind of account linking | mvanbaak wrote: | And how is this a problem? As user i like the idea that i | can select where and when i want this tracking to take | place | tehlike wrote: | Apple also restricts what app developer can offer to | people who don't agree to tracking. | | Imagine if you are less monetizable user, in theory, app | should be able to restrict what you can do in the app. | It's a business transaction after all | | But apple gets a say in this too. | | Also apple uses it's app store moat to restrict tracking | on websites too, similarly. | cma wrote: | Up the thread someone claims Apple calls it | "personalization" when they ask you to opt in to it from | them but "tracking" when an app asks you to opt in to the | same thing. | whimsicalism wrote: | The enforcement is mostly legal, not technical. | jmalicki wrote: | Meta is already doing this | https://developers.facebook.com/docs/marketing- | api/conversio... | | Matching the ad to the user is just more difficult as it | requires more in the way of user signups, as opposed to | e.g. cookie-based tracking which is more ubiquitous and | requires less integration. | vorpalhex wrote: | How do you get the same ID from 1 to use in step 3? (You | don't.) | tehlike wrote: | Idfa. Which apple canned with att & skadnetwork. | closeparen wrote: | Just curious: I know developers can have deep links | preserved through the app store installation process, so | that e.g. after you install the app it takes you to the | article you were reading in Safari. What stops you from | putting an identifier in there? | tehlike wrote: | There are possible technical work arounds to technical | restrictions. | | There are policy restrictions that you won't be able to | get around which is what att is. | johnthewise wrote: | Apple. If you try to get around the restrictions, you may | get banned, which means the end of your mobile business, | so you don't risk it. | ec109685 wrote: | Apple has SKAdNetwork to track app conversions in a privacy | centric way. E.g. Google Ad network is integrated with it: | https://developers.google.com/authorized- | buyers/rtb/skadnetw... | tehlike wrote: | It is workable, but apple still gets the secret sauce | that's personal data. Apple can personalize the ads better, | and measure performance better. | jchonphoenix wrote: | Apple has access to all data it blocks from other ad networks | by virtue of you owning an iPhone. It uses this data in its | DSP. One effect of Apple locking down privacy was to create a | unique monopoly on data for itself and its an advantage it | intends to capitalize on. | [deleted] | jshier wrote: | It could have access, but so far all of these articles | calling Apple out haven't cited a single shred of evidence | that Apple has replaced the previous invasive fingerprinting | by third parties with their own. If nothing else, the quality | of the ads you see from Apple would indicate they gather | less, not more, than most advertisers. I mean, I see ads for | Apple products I already own, or services I already subscribe | to. | htrp wrote: | That just says apple hasn't hired the ad guys from | facebook/google .... yet | novok wrote: | Apple doesn't need invasive statistical fingerprinting, | they already have your unique ID, unchangeable device | serial numbers and apple ID account. An iOS device cannot | install any app without an apple ID, and nowadays you need | a phone number to create an apple ID which is pretty much | _the_ supercookie identifier in most of the world. | | You can see a lot of the tracking and correlating that | apple does within their own legal documents, which I | commend them for at least writing them out clearly : | https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/apple- | advertisin... | | Apple also uploads a lot of logs, etc from their devices to | their servers, and opting out of apple level tracking at | some basic level is often just not an option. Ex, they | upload battery behavior info and use it to improve the | battery perf of their devices, or upload people's locations | and other location adjacent data like wifi networks with | location services and so on. | | Apple cares about privacy from third parties, _not_ privacy | from apple itself. Which is very apple of apple. Apple also | does not let you turn it off in some key parts. And they | know they work with security services & authoritarian | governments that force them to hand over any data that they | have access to, in secret, which gets thousands of innocent | people killed, tortured and jailed every day at their | scale. Yet they still collect it. | | Key parts of apple doesn't really like the existence of | third parties in many ways, and if they could, they would | rather have full locked down control, from what I can | observe from external actions over the decades. | | Any large group of people will of course have different | actions and motives, and I do commend part of the company | for caring, and funding efforts like lockdown mode and | keeping %95 of the company thinking and caring about | privacy at some level. But that key %5 that does not | basically ruins it for many. The best we can hope for is to | slowly change that last %5, although with this Services & | Ads push, I feel like that bad part is only going to grow | worse. | mr_toad wrote: | What people care about is whether they track which websites | you visit and the contents of your email. And then selling it | to anyone and their dog. | Reason077 wrote: | > _"Apple is also reportedly taking steps to build its own | demand-side platform (DSP) ... If true, it would mean that Apple | is jumping on the ad tech bandwagon, something that it has so far | resisted doing."_ | | Not entirely true: Apple's iAd platform ran for a few years in | the 2010s before being canned in 2016. | [deleted] | FrenchTouch42 wrote: | > Not entirely true: Apple's iAd platform ran for a few years | in the 2010s before being canned in 2016 | | It still exists, was just renamed to Ad Platforms (worked | there). | lelandfe wrote: | Yeah, I found that to be a very narrow definition of "ad tech." | Apple already has campaign management for ads today: | https://searchads.apple.com/advanced | lupire wrote: | iAd lasted shorter than a Google chat app. It was DOA. | | When people say "ad tech" now, they mean DSP -- selling their | party ads unrelated to the boat company. Apple Store ads are | Apple ripping off iOS devs for product placement in its own | store, not generic interest-based ads. | | https://ksmmedia.com/intel/the-apple-dsp/ | anizan wrote: | Brings back memories of a monty python sketch "You have got nice | ... here. It would be a shame if something happened" | https://montycasinos.com/montypython/scripts/armyprot.php.ht... | CharlesW wrote: | Keep in mind the source, and that AdGuard is effectively | competing with Apple to make your online life more private. | reaperducer wrote: | This is also about the ninth rehash on HN of the same newspaper | article that was written three months ago. | | Every blogger with an axe to grind has been re-spinning this | same point with more and more hyperbole since because "Apple | bad" = _click click click click_. | | Nothing new to see here. | amelius wrote: | I have a better idea: let's just stay with the facts. | jackconsidine wrote: | Marketing campaigns often convince people to think things, | however subconsciously, i.e. Lincoln is associated with Luxury or | X cereal is a wholesome breakfast. | | What I hadn't seen until this was a marketing campaign that | actually proselytized so many into proclaiming the message for | free. On HackerNews, Reddit and in public places you're likely to | find someone vouching for Apple's privacy practices sometimes | with the same verbiage that's on the billboards! Maybe that's a | testament to Steve Jobs's lasting marketing impact. | | I personally see the incentive structure which makes Apple more | privacy-friendly than say Google. But I'm deeply suspicious of | such a convenient message that the largest corporation in the | world puts its resources behind. Also, being more privacy- | friendly than Google and being privacy friendly are two different | things. | dilap wrote: | It was quite a thing to see Apple's huge "What Happens on | iPhone, Stays on iPhone" billboards up around town, at the | exact same time they were announcing the rollout of a new | content-side illegal-material scan-and-notify system. | | (I think they've since delayed the rollout of that system | indefinitely, after public outcry.) | misnome wrote: | To be fair - wasn't that scanning on-device, and only | uploading metadata on things that you yourself were already | uploading to their cloud? | GekkePrutser wrote: | It was restricted to that for the time being yes. But still | a big step in the wrong direction. I don't want my own | phone spying on me. It's a bridge too far. Scanning _on_ a | cloud service is a very big difference. | | Does it matter in practice? No. But it makes me feel very | different about it. That's important too. | smoldesu wrote: | Same way I feel about it. When the data is on _your_ | servers, I fully expect it to be analyzed and checked to | ensure it 's compliant with the host's standards. That's | part of our agreement, as customer and service. When you | move that software onto the device I use, now I have to | be conscious of _everything_ I interact with. It 's a | horrible sinking feeling that isn't easily mitigated by | platitudes like "we promise not to abuse it!" | freedomben wrote: | The Apple philosophy though is to think of the phone as | an _appliance_ , not a general purpose computer. The | model of "ownership" is also a lot more gray with Apple | devices. The idea that Apple has more control over the | device than you do is the accepted norm. Given that, I | think they could easily argue that your data is on | _their_ device, so analyzing /checking is expected. | They've been slowly iterating more and more to this model | for years, likely because I think a lot of people will | not go along with it unless the heat turns up slowly. | Spooky23 wrote: | That's exactly what they proposed to do. | smoldesu wrote: | I guess we have different definitions of "Apple's | servers" then. | Spooky23 wrote: | When you sync or upload folder to iCloud, iCloud is | Apple's property. They were scanning content before it | landed on Apple's property to enable S2E crypto. | | Sounds like you're taking exception with the explicit | parental notification, where a parent with a child | enrolled in their iCloud "family" can request to be | alerted when their minor child takes an action on the | phone owned by the parent. | | The EFF wrote an awful blog that deliberately confused | the already confusing release from Apple. Your privacy is | almost certainly weaker as a result, as various entities | can use a subpoena or warrant to access your files. | falcolas wrote: | The problem is that the data wasn't on their servers, it | was just flagged to go to Apple's servers. | | And once you're scanning files with one flag set, nothing | technologically prevents the scanning of files without | that flag being set. And to quote myself from the Google | Stadia brouhaha - "companies lie in PR statements" - so I | have no reason to trust Apple's statement that they would | never scan other files. | JimDabell wrote: | > And once you're scanning files with one flag set, | nothing technologically prevents the scanning of files | without that flag being set. | | You need to read up on how the system worked, because | they picked a design that made absolutely no sense if | they wanted to do that. They'd have to redesign it to | work in a different way if they wanted to do that. | smoldesu wrote: | You can read up on it, if you want. I'm not going to use | iCloud if it scans my data before it hits Apple's | servers. | scarface74 wrote: | The phone was analyzing what you would be sending to the | cloud. | falcolas wrote: | True. What stops it from analyzing other files on your | phone? A policy block. It's simple to change policies (or | be forced to change policies). | JimDabell wrote: | > What stops it from analyzing other files on your phone? | A policy block. | | The phone would be literally incapable of determining if | there were any matches. Please read up on how it was | designed to work. | scarface74 wrote: | What's stopping them from doing the same with your | unencrypted photos in iCloud? | | From a technical standpoint, at least you are protected | from future policy changes if your files in the cloud are | encrypted. | | Understand, I am playing the devils advocate role more | than anything else. | falcolas wrote: | Nothing. And since it's uploaded, I've agreed that it's | OK for them to scan and report on them. | | The key point I'm trying to make is that where the data | is located matters for whether Apple (or Microsoft or | Redhat or whichever company) has the ability or right to | read and report on that data. | | > at least you are protected from future policy changes | if your files in the cloud are encrypted. | | If, and only if, that data is never synced back to your | phone (which Apples does currently). | NaturalPhallacy wrote: | Devil's advocate: "We kill people based on metadata." | -Snowden | handedness wrote: | That statement was made by General Michael Hayden[0], | former National Security Agency director, former Central | Intelligence Agency director[1]. | | [0] https://youtu.be/kV2HDM86XgI?t=1072 | | [1] | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hayden_(general) | NaturalPhallacy wrote: | Thanks for pointing that out! I'd heard it from Snowden, | but didn't realize he wasn't the original source: | https://twitter.com/theyesmen/status/652963715168534528 | dilap wrote: | Yes, that's fair and true -- they promised the scanning | would self-limit to content being synched with iCloud. | | But I think that's pretty thin gruel, since now you're just | a feature-flag (or even a bug) away from all content being | scanned. More broadly, the entire endeavor is very much at | odds w/ the sentiment expressed in their public | advertising. | JimDabell wrote: | > now you're just a feature-flag (or even a bug) away | from all content being scanned. | | That's not true. The system didn't work the way you are | assuming. The device had no knowledge of any matches. The | "scanning" was a cooperation of client-side and server- | side code, each with an extremely limited knowledge of | the data involved. | Clent wrote: | The point the feature is lost here. | | They want to scan on device so they do not have to scan | it in the cloud. | | Because people are in full FUD mode on this, we're stuck | storing photos without full end-to-end encryption because | Apple has do the scanning on their side. | dilap wrote: | Well, there is another option: Apple could actually | respect your privacy, support end-to-end encryption, and | not scan your content at all. | lupire wrote: | They do, if you choose not to push your content into | their servers. | | If you don't want them to check for unwanted content, | don't put your content on their machines. | Jcowell wrote: | How does this work in regards to a companies obligation | (if there is one) to scan for illegal illicit material (I | don't feel like typing that term out that we all know) ? | dilap wrote: | Sure, if the law requires it, then the company must do | it. At that point, you are living under a rather | intrusive government! | yakubin wrote: | I wouldn't trust a corporation of this size to make sure | there aren't recurring bugs which cause scanning of things | I have on my device, but do not upload to their servers. If | the code for scanning, flagging me and reporting to | authorities is on the device, then I expect bugs | (intentional or not) which will trigger it, even though I | don't use iCloud. Put the scanning in the cloud, then I'll | be fine with it - I don't use the cloud. | | Also the scanning was calculating hashes based on content, | not just metadata. | JimDabell wrote: | > If the code for scanning, flagging me and reporting to | authorities is on the device | | It's not. The device has no idea if there are any | matches. Everybody is assuming how it works without | actually reading how it works. | [deleted] | tablespoon wrote: | > To be fair - wasn't that scanning on-device, and only | uploading metadata on things that you yourself were already | uploading to their cloud? | | On-device scanning like that would be pointless, though. | IIRC, stuff uploaded to their cloud is already accessible | to Apple for server-side scanning. The controversial thing | was the on-device scans would trigger some kind of upload | of _un-uploaded stuff_ to Apple for further investigation. | lupire wrote: | Please provide a source for that claim. | JimDabell wrote: | > The controversial thing was the on-device scans would | trigger some kind of upload of _un-uploaded stuff_ to | Apple for further investigation. | | No, a load of people _assumed_ it would do that, but it's | not possible with the proposed scheme because the device | had no knowledge of any matches. | scarface74 wrote: | Actually that's perfectly in line with it "staying on your | iPhone" that they were proposing to do content scanning on | your phone. Not that I agree with it. But it is consistent. | dilap wrote: | But results about matches don't stay on the phone, which I | think is clearly a violation of the statement (unless you | are interpreting it in an _extremely_ literal way). | scarface74 wrote: | It only gets sent to Apple if you turned on iCloud photo | syncing to send the photos to Apple. | | That means the alternative would be to send the photos to | Apple and Apple scans the photo. Either way you send the | photo to Apple and meta data gets generated about CSAM. | It's just a matter of where the data gets generated. | | I'm also uneasy about it happening on the phone. But | honestly, by it being processed on the phone, that means | it can be encrypted before it gets to Apple's servers. | | I'm basically working under the assumption that scanning | for CSAM is legally required. | matthewdgreen wrote: | > I'm basically working under the assumption that | scanning for CSAM is legally required. | | It is explicitly _not_ legally required in the US [1]. | Providers are required to report "apparent CSAM" that | they find on their own, but they are not compelled to | search their servers or private devices for its presence. | | And this is the case for a very good reason: if it was | _mandated_ by US law, then prosecutions would be subject | to much stronger 4th amendment review under the "state | action doctrine" (i.e., the companies are searching your | files without probable cause as compelled representatives | of the government.) The current arrangement evades this | review under the very thin fig-leaf that US providers are | doing the searching on their own. | | [1] | https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/LSB/LSB10713 | lupire wrote: | FOSTA/SESTA and other law push back on that, wherein a | neutral host (website, hotel) can be held responsible for | crimes commited on their property if the government | decides they are generally aware. Apple doesn't want to | be an accessory. So even if they can't be required to | scan, they can be punished for not scanning if something | illegal turns up | matthewdgreen wrote: | IANAL and certainly don't want to defend those laws, but | I believe FOSTA/SESTA ban providers from operating | services _with the intent_ to promote or facilitate | various crimes. In other words, the provider has to | knowingly distribute the material. I 'm pretty sure that | Apple encrypting its photo backup service would not | satisfy these criteria, but _if it did_ and the only way | to comply with those laws was enforced CSAM scanning, | then many CSAM prosecutions based on it would probably be | tossed out. | dilap wrote: | As far as I know, it's not legally required, at least in | the US, though I wouldn't be surprised if suggestions | from gov behind the scenes were the inspiration for this. | I guess the EU is in the process of trying to mandate | something like this. | | Which would be unfortunate. At that point, you won't be | able maintain digital privacy from the govt w/o de-facto | becoming a criminal. | | CSAM is, I think, simply the initial justification for | these systems, since it's widely reviled. But the system | itself is not CSAM-specific, and the temptation to expand | its scope will likely be irresistible. | | If your goal was to become an authoritarian tyrant, you | would be very happy to have this in place. :-) | JimDabell wrote: | > But results about matches don't stay on the phone | | Results about matches aren't ever on the phone in the | first place. Only the server can determine if there are | any matches. | nonbirithm wrote: | I don't think it's possible to exist as a public-facing | corporate entity without some kind of content scanning | mechanism. If that were possible, then every child abuser | would simply move their data onto those platforms and they'd | become untouchable. | | Even MEGA, which signals the virtues of privacy/security | through the prominence of decryption keys on its UI flows, | will still report illegal content to authorities and display | a message saying so if content was removed for that reason. | | Any publicly traded company that touts perfect privacy cannot | deliver what they are claiming, or they'd become the service | of choice for every type of disenfranchised person - | including child abusers. | | Apple has received much more flak than the average | corporation over this issue because this fundamental | impossibility of perfect privacy clashed with its own privacy | signaling in a loud way, and the flurry of debate over the | technical merits of the novel, widely shared on-device | scanning solution caused much more scrutiny than the boring | server-side scanning that has been ubiquitous for decades. | | But the fact is that no matter how Apple tries to approach | the CSAM problem, it will ultimately have to weed out child | abusers from its servers or be publicly and legally | lambasted. That is what society has decided is best for the | welfare of children, and as a result we will have to live | with an imperfect level of privacy as provided by such | entities. | Spooky23 wrote: | Yup, and now your materials are in clear text on their | service getting scanned routinely I'm sure. | | That particular issue was the privacy advocacy people run | amok. | ksec wrote: | I remember Tim Cook said they are not in the Ads Business. | Unfortunately I am too busy, Apple's PR has worked hard to | delete those tracks of what Tim Cook said, or Google's search | engine is longer showing what I am looking for. | | And I remember that "Apple is not in the Ad Business" before | 2018 was the most cited defence and reason on HN. That was | before the war on tracking, the submarine articles on ads, and | the attack on Facebook. | | Because you know what? Privacy is a _Fundamental Human Right_. | And because iPhone is the only smartphone that values your | privacy, banning iPhone sales in your country is also against | _Human Right_. | | >But I'm deeply suspicious of such a convenient message. | | I was probably the only few who was _deeply_ _deeply_ | suspicious of the "Dont be Evil" Google in the early 00s, in | an era of "Dont be Evil", when everyone in Tech thought they | were Saint. The self righteousness of Google, I thought nothing | could be worse than Google's hypocrisy. I mean how can | something be worse than "Dont be Evil"? | | Well here we are. The era of "Fundamental Human Right". A | company that worked with CCP, invested $275B to build and | improve the whole CE supply chain in China. Helping those | companies to compete in area where CCP has a strategic | interest, Continue to invest and help those companies to set up | operation in India or Vietnam in the name of "Diversification | from China" as PR headlines. | dragonwriter wrote: | > I remember Tim Cook said they are not in the Ads Business. | | Yes, he said that after Apple failed in the ads business, | just as it was focussing on leveraging its platform control | against the firms that had beat it to reshape the field for | the next try. | P5fRxh5kUvp2th wrote: | I degoogled long before it became popular to do so. And I was | on gmail early enough to have needed an invite. | | But the writing was on the wall for anyone who knew what to | look for. And it's the same with the likes of Paypal. I | refuse to use these services because they're not banks and | are not beholden to the same rules (they're getting more | regulated, and my find themselves to be a bank equivalent | eventually). | kbenson wrote: | > The self righteousness of Google, I thought nothing could | be worse than Google's hypocrisy. | | I wasn't very suspicious at the time, but learned to be. My | take on this is different though. I don't think it was a case | of self-righteousness as much as extreme naivete of some | postdocs that were just entering the business world. naivete | in thinking a statement such as that couldn't be twisted to | the point it meant less that it already does ("evil" is not | well defined), and naivete to think _they_ wouldn 't be the | ones twisting it, whether on purpose or subconsciously, as | business needs slowly changed and they had to justify keeping | their business afloat and profitable, and people in jobs, and | shareholders happy. | | You either set up your business such that it's incentivized | to align with your morals, or your business (the market) will | incentivize you to change your morals to align with it. | | If nothing else, we've learned that practices that seem | mostly benign one decade at low scale can become very | troubling the next decade when done at a much larger scale | and/or when additional consequences of the practice become | known. Choices made that align with your morals at one time | may have consequences that mean you were wrong, even if you | couldn't really have known it, but now your business relies | on this prior decision. | | Running a business is hard, making overreaching statements | you can't live up to later is easy. | hn_throwaway_99 wrote: | > I was probably the only few who was deeply deeply | suspicious of the "Dont be Evil" Google in the early 00s, in | an era of "Dont be Evil", when everyone in Tech thought they | were Saint. The self righteousness of Google, I thought | nothing could be worse than Google's hypocrisy. I mean how | can something be worse than "Dont be Evil"? | | I don't think that's accurate or fair, and I think (as I | often see) it misses a lot of context around where "Don't Be | Evil" came from, and what it really meant. | | "Don't Be Evil" was basically to highlight and contrast | Google's desired culture from Microsoft's at the time of the | late 90s/early 00s. That is, at the time, and especially | _early_ in Microsoft 's existence, MS was pretty famous for | "dirty tricks". E.g look at the early history/origins of DOS, | anti-competitive tactics WRT DR-DOS [1], how they fought the | browser wars, the full history outlined in Microsoft v United | States, etc. The icon for MS in Slashdot at the time was | famously the Gates "borg" icon, and that is how a lot of | people viewed MS. | | When it comes to Google, I think the whole idea behind "Don't | Be Evil" is that they believed that you could make money | withOUT dirty tricks, and up until 2010-2012 or so I think | this was largely true. People flocked to Google and their | products not because they were forced to, but because the | products were genuinely much better than the competition at | the time. Search, GMail, Maps, StreetView, Chrome - when all | of these came out I remember thinking "holy shit this is | amazing". | | The problem, though, is that at some point all very | successful companies reach a size where I believe it's only | possible to respond to your economic incentives, which are to | grow at any cost. I mentioned 2010-2012 (maybe a little | later, 2012-2014) because that's when I feel like I really | saw Google's approach change to really squeeze the pennies | from their existing business, e.g. when they made ads more | and more indistinguishable from organic results, or when they | made it so that any remotely commercial search term has an | ENTIRE page of ads above the fold. Paying "the Google tax" | became a real thing, e.g. you'd have to pay Google for an add | JUST on your domain name because competitors might bid | higher. | | Thus, if anything, I give Google props for "holding out" a | good ~12-15 years before their growth and economic incentives | made it "must increase revenue at all costs" and the | beancounters took over. | | 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARD_code | moonchrome wrote: | >"dirty tricks" | | You mean like colluding with other big companies to | suppress wages ? Your timelines don't check out since | there's evidence of this going back to 2007. | hero4hire wrote: | faeriechangling wrote: | I would argue Google turned evil quickly, pretty much the | moment they released the surplus behavioural data they | could glean off their users when they used their services | could be extracted for profit which begun even before | gmail, allowing them to "personalize" your services. And by | personalize, I mean Google built a profile on you to better | learn how they could poke and prod at your behaviour in | order to manipulate you into doing things for their | customers, the advertisers. | | I think the doubleclick acquisition hopped this into | overdrive and also allowed Google to start screwing both | sides by extracting larger and larger rents from | advertisers with its near monopoly power and ad cartel with | Facebook. We saw the Google tracking cookie spread like a | plague shaking down users for data even if they did not use | a Google service, as sites effectively needed to install | googles tracking cookie on its customers computers to take | full advantage of the Google ad monopoly, obliterating the | pretence of consent you had with a service like gmail where | you were at least consciously agreeing to data scraping. | | I honestly think it took them almost no time at all to go | from pagerank and spiders to leap towards building their | panopticon and the modern surveillance economy. I think the | reason people didn't consider them evil is that what they | were doing was so innovative and groundbreaking that people | didn't fully understand the implications. The way their | business operates shouldn't even be legal with them playing | both sides of the ad market and their relentless spying | being opt-out at best if you have sufficient technical | knowledge. The spying of Google and companies like that | it's undermining government privacy protections at this | point as the government can acquire spy data it couldn't | gather itself legally (for good reason) from private | companies. | pyuser583 wrote: | Wow ... it's insane how "Apple is not in the ad business" has | been scrubbed from the internet. | | I've seen this happen before. But not with a big corporation. | nsxwolf wrote: | The modern internet gives me a strange sense of amnesia. I | swear everything is heavily censored and redacted now, but | how can I prove it when my primary view into this world is | the search engines themselves? It feels a bit like the | simulation hypothesis. | pyuser583 wrote: | carlineng wrote: | > I remember Tim Cook said they are not in the Ads Business. | Unfortunately I am too busy, Apple's PR has worked hard to | delete those tracks of what Tim Cook said, or Google's search | engine is longer showing what I am looking for. | | The first sentence of the actual article links to when Tim | Cook said that. | helsinkiandrew wrote: | They're not in the search business because the potential is | much more limited compared with selling hardware and | services. People use YouTube and Facebook for many hours a | day and the amount of revenue compared with what Apple can | get from ads in app store, news, perhaps iPhone search and | other Apple apps are orders of magnitude higher (hundreds of | billions of dollars compared with single digit billions for | Apple). | | Privacy is very different for most of the ads Apple are | currently showing too. Search ads work without the need for | tracking because when people are searching for something you | show them ads for things they are searching for now, not from | some model of their interests created from their tracked | internet history. | | This is why Apple can have an ad business and also destroy | Facebooks (and others) ad business based on tracking - they | don't need to squeeze every dollar from targeted ads. | Dangeranger wrote: | There is a speech that was given at EPIC (Electronic Privacy | Information Center) in 2015 that is likely to have the quote | you are looking for.[0][1] | | There is a short clip of his speech at the event which was | reported by NBC News, in which he states the boundaries of | their advertisement program at the time.[2] | | EDIT: There is also this story from the Verge in 2014 which | includes a lengthy quote about the advertisement program.[3] | | [0] https://archive.epic.org/2015/06/tim-cook-backs-privacy- | cryp... | | [1] https://archive.epic.org/june1/ | | [2] https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/apple/its-wrong-apple-ceo- | tim-c... | | [3] https://www.theverge.com/2014/9/17/6368669/tim-cook- | talks-up... | [deleted] | yazzku wrote: | 'Deeply suspicious' is an understatement. These corporations | don't have your back, and if something benefits the user, it's | only as a side effect. Sadly, many still buy into the | messaging, which must be hard to avoid when Apple's marketing | has always been around making you feel like the kool kid in the | block. Anybody who has ever believed Apple's pro-privacy scam | is living in a fairy tale. | lupire wrote: | No one has anyone's back, except if your mother loves you, so | what's the point of that complaint? | | Alliances of mutual benefit are still good. | yazzku wrote: | Except that this isn't an alliance, and the point of the | complaint is that they market themselves as pro-privacy | when they are anything but. | lupire wrote: | It's called doing well by doing good, and earning a god | reputation. | | If you do good, people will talk about it, and you get to talk | about it. | gigel82 wrote: | Not only that, in my experience, the support is fanatical in | nature. I often get downvoted and flagged for daring to state | the obvious, which is that Apple is positioning itself to | become one of the largest companies in the Ad space. It's | probably more than just great marketing / PR (at least - of the | usual kind). | ouid wrote: | apple uploads and modifies all photos you take on your device | with the explicit stated intent of referring you for | prosecution. That doesn't sound very private to me. | addicted wrote: | A huge part of Apple's positive incentive structure was the | fact that they didn't do ads. | | But now that they are getting into the ad space that incentive | structure benefit pretty much crumbles away. | giobox wrote: | I have huge concerns about this, I think it's really hard for | any publicly traded company who gets into ad-tech not to end | up making some questionable choices. The incentive structure | in the ad business is such that no matter how strong a core | org you think you have, it likely corrupts over time. While | Apple's track record on privacy is commendable, Tim loves | (and needs to keep shareholders happy) a good Services growth | story. | | It's also clear at this point, the most profitable ads in the | industry are the ones that most take advantage of personal | data - this isn't a secret. The difference in profitability | can be stark too, which is why I worry so much about the | incentive structure. | moreira wrote: | You might be surprised to know that Apple has been doing ads | for over a decade. [0] They've had ads for a long time, and | still do - App Store search ads[1] and Apple News ads, to my | knowledge. | | [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAd [1]: | https://searchads.apple.com/ | indymike wrote: | Also: both the App Store and Apple News cannot be | uninstalled on MacOS. | yazzku wrote: | I don't get where people get that 'Apple didn't do ads'. | I'm not even an iOS user and I know that much. Must be | drinking unreal levels of kool-aid. | kmeisthax wrote: | Apple was and is so bad at advertising that people think | they didn't do it until recently. | | Part of it just comes with the territory. Apple is a | computer company that prides itself on not only having a | sense of _taste_ , but being able to impose that sense of | taste on its business partners. This is contrary to the | goals of advertisers - tastelessness kind of comes with | the territory and advertising inherently messes with the | user experience. | nvrspyx wrote: | Let's not forget that App Store search ads replaced iAds, | which was an in-app ad network. I assume that it was shut | down because of too much competition in the space, but | perhaps we'll see it come full circle as Apple diminishes | the "effectiveness" of third-parties. | lancesells wrote: | And there was the Steve Jobs era ad network that has big, | interactive type flash ads that Apple had to approve as | being "good". I don't remember much except working on a | video component of a Geico ad that was mobile only in | ~2009. | fragmede wrote: | They were always a marketing company though. See this more as | the prodigal son returning to his roots. | pb7 wrote: | How is it a marketing company? | factorialboy wrote: | Few months ago when launching apps on Mac Os became sluggish | because their telemetry service had high latency -- that was | the moment I lost faith in all of Apple's privacy claims. | | PS: Still use a MBP, iPhone and an Apple Watch. :( | Spooky23 wrote: | They didn't say what happens on MacOS stays on MacOS. | | That type of capability is core to most general purpose OS's | today. Any significant company is running EDR, etc that's | even more intrusive | user3939382 wrote: | If you just put macOS on a proxy you can see the it basically | never stops phoning home. Privacy my ass. | jjtheblunt wrote: | On a laptop not on WiFi what happens? | gumby wrote: | That telemetry could easily -- more easily in fact -- have | been done in a privacy protecting way: have your machine ship | with a signature database and then have it randomly and | frequently download deltas. Then check the signature database | locally. It would be faster too. Especially on the mac we're | not talking about an enormous database. | | Rather disappointed that Apple didn't take this route. They | do do something similar with their virus database (XProtect). | e40 wrote: | That "telemetry" (which is misleading in the current context) | was about checking for malware. I'm talking the specific case | of launching apps on macOS. | Zagill wrote: | Part of the issue IIRC is that application names were | exposed in the request, not encrypted in any way. So there | are legitimate privacy/security concerns in publicly | announcing every application that you open on your | computer. | sitzkrieg wrote: | that is still very much the same thing | clairity wrote: | > "Also, being more privacy-friendly than Google and being | privacy friendly are two different things." | | in theory, that's ok, if we have healthy, functioning markets | that are free from undue influence of any individual | participant. the "invisible hand" of the market would drive it | iteratively toward more privacy (assuming this is valued by | more than minor segment, greater than ~15% of the market). the | market would (and should) be an ongoing conversation between | suppliers and consumers to reach all the profitable corners of | supply and demand, rather than a couple behemoths with | megaphones telling us how great they are, rather than showing | it through their products and practices. | | p.s. - has anyone else noticed adguard doing port-scans on your | gateway from their dns service IPs? i haven't dug into it yet, | so i don't know whether it's spoofed or whatnot. | whimsicalism wrote: | > functioning markets that are free from undue influence of | any individual participant. the "invisible hand" of the | market would drive it iteratively toward more privacy | (assuming this is valued by more than minor segment, greater | than ~15% of the market) | | The market is for advertisers, and advertisers - whether they | are small or large businesses - value tracking and | measurability of their advertising investments. | clairity wrote: | advertisers value a way of determining ROI, which doesn't | necessarily require pervasive tracking (see: nielsen | ratings of yore). | | in any case, my point was about the consumer electronics | market, which is apple's core industry, and which, in a | healthy and well-functioning market, also has a key stake | in this conversation (driving it toward non-distorted, | optimally efficient outcomes). | whimsicalism wrote: | > doesn't necessarily require pervasive tracking | | I disagree. Incrementality studies (which measure ROI) as | advertisers want them are basically impossible with ATT. | You need to be able to pass an ID between apps. | clairity wrote: | yes, but you haven't shown that that translates into more | precise and accurate ROI. marketers and advertisers | believe it should, but there's no solid proof. that's | because markets (and any human endeavor) is complicated | beyond our ability to model (and solve) it | deterministically. attribution models (such as | incrementality studies) can sometimes give you clues, but | can't really tell you why any given person bought | something with any certainty. it's the old adage of half | of advertising dollars are wasted, but you don't know | which half. | disgruntledphd2 wrote: | Before ATT happened, FB has a tool that would run | experiments to assess incrementality of your advertising. | It's possible, but there are a bunch of privacy trade- | offs.. | clairity wrote: | right, but again, those are very likely probabalistic, | population-level models that make assumptions about how | to attribute credit--does it all go to the first | view/click? how likely is the first view/click really the | first view/click? do you instead apportion credit across | clicks/views? how? it's somewhat useful at a population | level, but not at all at an individual level, especially | not for the tradeoff in privacy, anonymity, and autonomy. | | but the kicker is, is it better than just doing studies | without the more invasive attribution data, especially in | relation to the higher price and market consolidation? | very unlikely. ad monopolization means more of the value | in the value chain goes to the monopolist regardless of | the proportion of value they provide in the chain. | whimsicalism wrote: | > is it better than just doing studies without the more | invasive attribution data, | | Absolutely, as the controlled incrementality study is | impossible without either attribution or some group-based | approximation of attribution (ie. federated cohorts, | etc.) | whimsicalism wrote: | > there's no solid proof | | I think modern incrementality studies give solid proof of | the value of an ad on the basis of a good model of how | the world works. Of course, models can be wrong - it | could turn out that solipsism is true, physics is false, | and the world outside of your own mind is a figment of | your imagination! | | That the world is complex and models are inherently wrong | does not mean that nothing of value to businesses was | lost with ATT. | lostlogin wrote: | > the market would (and should) be an ongoing conversation | between suppliers and consumers to reach all the profitable | corners of supply and demand, rather than a couple behemoths | with megaphones telling us how great they are | | I agree but where do we see this? Everywhere I look it's mega | corps. Food, fuel, power, electronics, clothes. I can't think | of a good example of the ideal relationship. | clairity wrote: | mostly in commodities markets (almost by definition, ha). | if we had an anti-trust division with any teeth, we'd have | many more markets like this, as that's the whole point of | anti-trust enforcement--to un-distort markets to drive | greater efficiencies and maximize value across the economy | (not just in large corps and solely for the already | wealthy). | lupire wrote: | Monopolies are optimally efficient across the economy, as | long as the monopolist doesn't get too greedy. | Competition is wasteful -- competition is why the | deadweigh loss ad industry exists! | clairity wrote: | monopolies seeming to be efficient like that is only true | in a limited static analysis. in a dynamic and complex | economy, there's great value in the flexibility, | ingenuity, resilience, price discovery, and creative | restructuring provided by multiple competitors in a given | market. | [deleted] | [deleted] | cormacrelf wrote: | > On HackerNews, Reddit and in public places you're loath to | find someone vouching for Apple's privacy practices | | FYI loath means "unwilling", so it doesn't make sense here. | "Loath to X" is like "I would loathe doing X". The word you're | looking for is "likely". | [deleted] | lbotos wrote: | Not op, but I wondered if this was a Britishism. My partner | recently introduced to me to "lousy with" meaning | "abundance"... | mgerdts wrote: | My mom who is not British and has spent almost no time | outside of the Great Plains uses this term. I think the | "lous" come from louse, the singular form of lice. A great | abundance of not a great thing. | lbotos wrote: | TIL! But my partner has heard it used in the UK like "I'm | lousy with options" as in, I'm overflowing with choice. | That was a fun convo as I was like ... What?? | [deleted] | diputsmonro wrote: | "Lousy" also has a definition of being infested with lice | (the singular form of which is louse); according to the | Etymology Dictionary this may be the original meaning | (https://www.etymonline.com/word/lousy) | | From there, it seems to have developed as an _American_ | slang to describe "infestations" of other kinds. | Xeronate wrote: | I see you were right, but I think both choices (loathe and | likely) are acceptable. I originally thought jack was saying | "its unfortunate to find" or "it's disgusting to find". | jackconsidine wrote: | Had my negatives flipped- thanks for pointing out! | tootie wrote: | I like to say that Apple is a marketing company that makes | decent tech products. They absolutely played this market like a | fiddle. They sat back and watched Google and FB absorb tons of | bad press and I'm sure they were feeding it behind the scenes. | It always felt to me like a ploy. As much as ads and the SEO | game had their problems, they were there to support the open | web. Apple kept tapping the breaks on improving their web | browsers and driving users to apps because that was their | walled garden. Owning an iPhone now is essentially a status | symbol, owning an Android means you're poor. The privacy rules | designed to kill ads was only ever designed to hurt Google, not | to protect users. | | As a counter example of marketing gone wrong, Amazon has very | steadfastly never sold their customer data to anyone. No one | ever thought for a second that they did this because they were | interested in privacy. | Spooky23 wrote: | "Selling data" means nothing. Amazon trades in data services | all of the time. Facebook is serving up retargeted Amazon ads | in near real time. | | Apple usually designs their experiences around things they | control end to end. | lupire wrote: | Google also has never sold customer data. Amazon has been in | level trouble several times for stealing customer (product | seller) data. | gjsman-1000 wrote: | I propose a law, that states that advertising is only permitted | in certain locations, in certain industries (phonebooks, highway | ads, TV stations), and that anywhere else, it is completely | illegal to advertise, full stop. Do not even think about | advertising there if it's not on the short list. If you want to | advertise on a product, no money must exchange hands, or Congress | must pass an amendment. | | EDIT: Forgot when writing this down (been thinking about this for | a while), but this would only apply to Publicly traded companies. | andsoitis wrote: | Wouldn't it be better to enumerate what's prohibited rather | than what's allowed? | tzs wrote: | So if a publicly traded company wants to advertise on TV they | either have to find a TV station that will run their ad for | free or they have to buy a TV station, because of the | requirement that no money change hands for the ad? | mateo411 wrote: | I think we would have to change the 1st Amendment to make this | type of law constitutional. | ccouzens wrote: | How do you tell if something is advertising? Is a sportsperson | wearing a brand because they like it or because they're being | paid to wear it? | elicash wrote: | So you start a t-shirt business online, and you can only | advertise in those places instead of Instagram? Seems bad for | the business. | | Would be very profitable for tv stations, though! And we'd see | a ton more billboards covering everything. | gjsman-1000 wrote: | Well, in that case, I would just say that my law only applies | to Publicly traded companies. | | That would cover all the Apples, Samsungs, Rokus, and so | forth of the world which is what we care about most, I think. | candiddevmike wrote: | Since you're already making carve outs, here's $100,000 for | your reelection campaign if you exclude Apple, too. | | Ethical marketing is a hard problem to solve, I don't think | the best solution is focusing on where it happens, instead | it should be focused on how it's happening (targeting) and | what the content is. | kjkjadksj wrote: | Highway ads are bad because they distract drivers. Some states | like AK and VT have banned billboard already. | amelius wrote: | Let's also ban professions in advertising. | | I mean, we did it for prostitution, so it could work? | seydor wrote: | good. let's run some ads to pass that law | cwkoss wrote: | Highway ads are a public safety risk and should be banned, IMO | amelius wrote: | Also just about any type of advertisement stimulates | overconsumption. | | Banning ads right now seems like a sensible thing to do if we | want to reach climate goals. | colejohnson66 wrote: | That'll never stand up to a First Amendment lawsuit | gjsman-1000 wrote: | I'm not so sure about that. In many states, if you sell a | product, the government can compel you to put speech on your | product (such as, for tobacco, giant warnings about | addiction.) In my home state, Minnesota, advertising certain | products (like adult-themed stores) is banned on highway | billboards. If that is legal, you could maybe _at least_ | force a giant black-and-white text warning covering up half | the side of TV saying, "Warning: Contains non-removable | built-in advertising and user behavior tracking features." If | you were really nasty, you could force a "sin tax" on the | manufacturer for doing so - just charging 10% per product | with built-in advertising would quickly end the practice. | Treat advertising like tobacco - even that would be a start. | Dracophoenix wrote: | Treating advertisements like tobacco would mean giving the | FDA control over what people and read. Definitely a First | Amendment problem. | anotherman554 wrote: | Well first of all tell us how we should read the first | amendment. Do we do it based on what the FOUNDING FATHERS | believed or what the language of the amendment says, or | some other doctrine? | | Because if we do it based on what the FOUNDING FATHERS | believed, unless you can find a quote where they said the | first amendment would apply to advertisements, then we | can conclude that the first amendment doesn't apply at | all. | colejohnson66 wrote: | > Because if we do it based on what the FOUNDING FATHERS | believed, unless you can find a quote where they said the | first amendment would apply to advertisements, then we | can conclude that the first amendment doesn't apply at | all. | | That's an unreasonable view. The First Amendment says | _nothing_ about text on computers or lyrics in music | being protected speech, yet we accept that they are and | the Supreme Court agrees. | [deleted] | anotherman554 wrote: | I think you mean "certain Supreme Courts in certain time | periods agree..." The 1942 Supreme Court said in | Valentine v. Chrestensen commercial speech isn't | protected by the first amendment at all. | Dracophoenix wrote: | > Because if we do it based on what the FOUNDING FATHERS | believed, unless you can find a quote where they said the | first amendment would apply to advertisements, then we | can conclude that the first amendment doesn't apply at | all. | | A dangerous line of thinking. If we're just going to keep | what the Founding Fathers said as the only standard for | the First Amendment, then only the Federal government | would be bound by it. States could could still pass their | own laws that punish the exercise of individual rights, | free speech included. | | https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaughter-House_Cases | anotherman554 wrote: | I agree that sticking to what the founding father's said | will greatly roll back civil rights, but this is what | conservatives frequently claim they want to do. | | Curiously, conservatives say this is more democratic | since people will get to vote on anything they want | without judges getting in the way, even though there's no | right to vote in the constitution. | [deleted] | magic_hamster wrote: | This is a brilliant idea, however there are a few problems. The | first is that for better or worse, you could bring down a lot | of services, businesses, content creators (i.e. YouTube) and | most likely a great many people will lose their job. | | The second problem is, this is probably not going to fly | against freedom of speech, because it's effectively censorship | of a certain kind. And if it does pass, what could be the next | flavor of communication to be outlawed? Maybe it's not | something you're going to like. | | I much prefer blocking ads (which I've come to be incredibly | effective at), and still have the law allow people to | advertise. And I hate ads with a passion! But the alternative | could be worse. | armchairhacker wrote: | If Apple starts running invasive ads or other bad practices, it | will further the development of the PinePhone / LibrePhone. It | will also cause a lot (possibly even the majority) of developers | to switch from iOS / macOS to open-source OSs. In this sense, | invasive advertising would be a bad idea economically. | | A lot of developers who value "open-source" still use iOS and | macOS. A big reason is because, despite being proprietary, this | software is _good_. The minor flaws (macOS harder to modify, iOS | being locked-down, both platforms being not open-source and less | compatible with open-source than Linux /BSD) don't outweigh the | work of creating a new OS which has the benefits (seamless user | experience, fast, good design, efficient for productivity). A big | reason PinePhone and LibrePhone are far behind iOS is simply | because there isn't enough motivation - the hardware is there, | it's the software (e.g. smooth gestures) which are lacking. | | Apple would not lose much of their _userbase_ , as a minority of | "non-developer" people don't care about invasive ads. But a lot | of developers do, and having developers move away is still really | bad because it affects Apple's ecosystem. Devs don't just use iOS | and macOS, they make software for these platforms and even | directly contribute to open-source Apple code. If everyone is | making software and fixing bugs for Linux and LineageOS instead, | they will get better and cause more developers and eventually | ordinary users to migrate away. | pid_0 wrote: | frankfrank13 wrote: | I get why people are so suspicious of this, but I personally | still feel like Apple is going to handle this much better than | Google or Meta. Meta and Google are 1-trick ponies, and those | ponies feed off of transforming user data into ads. Apple doesn't | _need_ ads, and therefore can do them on their own terms. | SpectralTheory wrote: | Where are these ads being delivered? Just the App Store, or are | they expanding into somewhere else? | hankchinaski wrote: | App Store, News app, Stocks app, Maps app, Books app, Podcast | app it mentions in the article | Nextgrid wrote: | The only app of value here is maybe Maps. The rest is garbage | already so won't be a major difference. | jscipione wrote: | Better Apple make money off data than it being collected by | Facebook and sent to the FBI. | | https://nypost.com/2022/09/14/facebook-spied-on-private-mess... | | At least Apple has a record of keeping their users safe from | government. | | https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/14/apple-refuses-barr-request-t... | r00fus wrote: | What makes you think Apple isn't doing the same? They were | involved in PRISM as well. Honestly, I really doubt Apple could | continue to do business without being at least somewhat porous | to law enforcement and government snooping (maybe better than | others but definitely not stiff-arming them). | moolcool wrote: | Having the data exist on somebody's servers in an unencrypted | state at all is enough to make me uneasy. | mywacaday wrote: | I recently signed up for the duckduckgo anti tracking protection | beta. I guess I always suspected on some level the amount of | tracking but seeing the the blocking in real time of apps I | haven't used in weeks really brings it home. | simonh wrote: | To be clear, this is entirely about advertising within Apple's | App Store (that's what Apple Search Ads is). It has nothing to do | with ads on the internet or in Safari, or even within third party | apps. | amelius wrote: | pavlov wrote: | And Google ads used to be only unobtrusive text inlined with | search results until it wasn't. | | If there's growth in a segment of business that's moving the | needle at a multi-trillion market cap corporation like Apple, | there are executives and product managers all over the place | hoping to get on board. | CobrastanJorji wrote: | I agree, I think you mean that they were NOT inline. They | were out of the line, in an entirely separate column. With a | different background color. With the words "sponsored links" | added to their box. | simonh wrote: | Maybe, I suppose we'll see, but people have been saying this | ever since the Google/Apple bust up over user data in Google | Maps back in 2009. If we condemned everyone for things they | might do one day we'd all be in jail for life. | kuratkull wrote: | Google search ads used to be in a separate box to the right | of the search results. | drawingthesun wrote: | Incorrect I just checked that the stocks app on Mac OS does | indeed have unrelated adverts. | jdgoesmarching wrote: | I feel like the real outrage here should be for developers who | already pay a fee for the privilege of being Apple developers, | give up 30% of their revenue for the privilege of being | inconsistently judged by app review, and now need to fork over | extra money just to have their exact app name appear when | searched. | | It's insulting to the dev community who drove the success of | the app store and arguably iOS in general. No amount of "we | love our devs" PR can reconcile this. | thr0wawayf00 wrote: | > It's insulting to the dev community who drove the success | of the app store and arguably iOS in general. No amount of | "we love our devs" PR can reconcile this. | | Apple built this market to control it completely, you could | see it coming from miles away. It seems like the big move | nowadays is build your market (i.e. "platform") and you get | to be judge, jury and executioner. How did you see something | like this playing out? I just don't understand how people | still aren't cynical enough to see this kind of thing coming. | datadata wrote: | People might be able to see it coming, but could still be | enticed by the riches to be made for a while by playing the | game even while knowing how it ends. | munificent wrote: | Or simply be making the rational economic choice given a | lack of better alternatives. | Dalewyn wrote: | >you get to be judge, jury and executioner. | | This has been the case with every single instance of | software repositories (aka app stores). Remember the whole | ffmpeg and libav schism that was fueled in part by repo | maintainers imposing their dogmatic will? Or more recently | Debian and whether to include non-free code in its | installers (aka local repository)? I can't quite grasp why | this doesn't appear immediately obvious to anyone. | | The only truly free ecosystem is something like Win32, | where developers are free to write whatever they want, | publishers are free to sell whatever they want where- and | however they want, and the operating system is dependent on | that free ecosystem for continued relevance. | skc wrote: | They're gonna print even more money. You literally don't get a | much more captive audience than macOS/iOS users. | bndr wrote: | I'm not sure how the anti-trust / anti-monopoly laws work, but | isn't it conflict of interest, if you limit others in how they | can use your platform, but allow yourself to do the same things | you're limiting others in? Or am I wrong? | perryizgr8 wrote: | They've been doing it for years now with Apple music, and other | stuff. Why do you think they will be stopped now? | NovemberWhiskey wrote: | You seem to be suggesting there isn't a level playing field: | can you explain why? | | Apple doesn't limit anyone from advertising; they just limit | third-party tracking, no? | JimDabell wrote: | > Apple doesn't limit anyone from advertising; they just | limit third-party tracking, no? | | They don't limit third-party tracking either. They limit | third-party tracking _without the user's consent_. The only | thing advertisers need to do is ask the user for permission | to track them. | fossuser wrote: | They're a little disingenuous about this. | | You can compare the pop-up language Apple shows for an app | like FB and the one they show for their own personalized | ads to see what I'm talking about. They've also run | misleading ads and have made comments that confuse people | about what's actually going on. | | I'm no apologist for ads, but Ben Thompson is right to | point out that this hurts small companies that rely on | these targeted ads in order to exist a lot more than it | hurts large players like FB. | | For example - a grocery store doesn't want to manage 'first | party' user data to track what you purchase (and you | probably don't want them to), they're bad at that and more | likely to do it poorly. They'd rather rely on an ad company | they can use instead. This applies to most small businesses | that rely on targeted advertising to get their business in | front of users that would want it. In Apple's model Amazon | doesn't need to say they track you because all purchase | data happens on Amazon, but FB does because others use FB | to target third party ads. The data doesn't leave FB though | so a reasonable person could argue why is this worse? | | My personal opinion is that we'd be better off in an | equilibrium where these ad driven models are not viable | because the models that would replace them would be better | on net with incentives more aligned between user and | product. | | There is a problem here with how user data is handled in | some cases, but Apple is also being at best misleading | about the issue in a way that benefits themselves and | reasonable people could think they're doing the wrong | thing. | JimDabell wrote: | > The data doesn't leave FB though so a reasonable person | could argue why is this worse? | | Because the user has a relationship with the grocery | store application and as far as they are aware, only | interacting with the grocery store application. They | aren't given the knowledge or opportunity to decide | whether to send their data to Facebook or not. All Apple | are requiring is that the user be given that knowledge | and opportunity. | [deleted] | onepointsixC wrote: | This is misleading. | | Apple limits third party tracking without user's consent by | both calling it as third party tracking and having it opt | in, while Apple's tracking is "personalization" that is opt | out. | | It's absolutely a dark pattern meant to destroy non apple | advertising while making the owners of the OS the only real | way to advertise on it. It should be clamped down hard. | malshe wrote: | > while Apple's tracking is "personalization" that is opt | out. | | For about a year this is no longer true. | JimDabell wrote: | > Apple limits third party tracking without user's | consent by both calling it as third party tracking and | having it opt in, while Apple's tracking is | "personalization" that is opt out. | | You just seem to be skipping over the fact that Apple is | not a third-party here. The user has a direct | relationship with them. | | > the only real way to advertise on it. | | The advertising industry has existed for over a hundred | years without pervasive third-party tracking. Pervasive | third-party tracking is _not_ "the only real way to | advertise on it". | onlyrealcuzzo wrote: | Rules for thee not for me (Apple Advertising). | colejohnson66 wrote: | You can enable and disable personalized adverts from Apple | in the settings | onlyrealcuzzo wrote: | But they're not set to disabled by default like 3rd party | tracking is. | | Gee, I wonder why... | Nextgrid wrote: | On the other hand, third-party tracking is not silently | disabled either - instead, it prompts the user on first | run and the user is given the choice to opt in or out | _per-app_. | onepointsixC wrote: | It's: | | Non Apple ads: Opt In for scary third party tracking | | Apple Ads: Opt Out for a "less personalized" experience | JimDabell wrote: | If I use an Apple device then I am clearly using an Apple | product and I have a relationship with Apple. | | If I use an application then I am clearly using their | product and I have a relationship with the application | developers. | | If that application embeds third-party tracking, I am not | clearly doing anything with the third party and I don't | have a relationship with that third party. Therefore | Apple requires that the application developers ask for my | consent first. | | Only one of these needs the user's consent, and it's | clear why. Apple can act fairly and still hold third- | party tracking to a different standard. | lovecg wrote: | But that argument is not limited to tracking, isn't it. | For example if I use an application that integrates with | Shopify or Stripe, by that logic Apple would also be in | the right to ask for consent (while the integration with | Apple Pay would be pop-up free). In fact I don't see any | reason why Apple shouldn't go after those businesses next | - there's a clear privacy angle they can play here too. | As much as I like Apple Pay as a consumer, I don't think | Apple should get a blanket pass on favoring its own | infrastructure over any third-party integrations just | because the user is less confused about their | relationship with Apple. | falcolas wrote: | They limit cross-application tracking. | | Which I'm fine with. | | Is there any evidence that Apple themselves are tracking | across 3rd party application advertisements (this is me | assuming that they do track across 1st party apps, which is | _not_ fair). | pier25 wrote: | You mean like Apple not allowing third party browser engines? | amelius wrote: | If you really wanted to rule out conflicts of interest, you | would have to break up the company in several hardware and | several software companies. | gamblor956 wrote: | No, you're not wrong. If Apple follows through with this it's | pretty much the textbook definition of an antitrust violation: | leveraging their market power in one market to circumvent | competition in the target market. | scarface74 wrote: | When I watch Netflix, I have no reason to be surprised or | shocked that Netflix is using that information to target | movies I want to watch. It's the same with Amazon and | Facebook. | | What I don't expect is that when I shop on Amazon I get ads | showing me what I searched for and bought on Amazon to show | up on Facebook (which of course does happen). | | What would be the consumer friendly thing for the government | to do? Allow more cross app data sharing? Refuse to let any | company use the history of what a consumer does _at that | company_ for targeting? | aierou wrote: | Regulators could kill several birds with one stone and | allow alternative app markets on iOS devices. | scarface74 wrote: | I can see the marketing aspect now "if you install this | third party App Store, the apps you can install can | ignore the privacy guards and advertise and track you | better!" | | Or a company like Facebook can once again encourage users | to install a VPN that allows them to track all of the | traffic to and from your phone. | | https://mashable.com/article/facebook-used-onavo-vpn- | data-to... | scarface74 wrote: | Yes, just like Facebook can't limit others from scheduling ads | and Google can't limit other search engines from just being | plugs in. | | Also cable companies can't limit others from carrying channels. | | Do you think advertisers on Facebook, Google or Amazon get | access to all of the data that the platform vendor has? | | Do you also want everyone to get access to Google's search | algorithm? | | If I had a dollar every time someone on HN yelled "anti trust" | about anything no matter how little legal sense it made, I | could be my own VC. | jannes wrote: | Par for the course in big tech. They love walled gardens. | imwillofficial wrote: | I don't deliver Apple is offering anything different that third | parties can't see. | | Anyone confirm or deny? | loeg wrote: | My hearsay impression is that Apple can and do track in ways | they prevent 3rd parties from doing on their platform. | onlyrealcuzzo wrote: | They ABSOLUTELY do. | | They track everything about the device - and the user has | almost no control over it. | | Sure, they aren't tracking what you're doing INSIDE the FB | app. But they track every time you use it, where you use | it, the context that led to that usage, etc. | falcolas wrote: | > Sure, they aren't tracking what you're doing INSIDE the | FB app. But they track every time you use it, where you | use it, the context that led to that usage, etc. | | So does Facebook (as much as they're able and allowed | to), being fair. | onlyrealcuzzo wrote: | FB can't track every time you open Pinterest on an | iPhone. | | Apple can and does. | Nextgrid wrote: | FB absolutely can and does correlate events and various | metadata sent by the "Facebook SDK" spyware which litters | most mainstream apps. ATT does not prevent that because | the fingerprint it collects, combined with your IP | address is sufficient to link all the separate instances | of the SDK by correlating enough events. | falcolas wrote: | To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm just | saying that individual applications can track those | metrics for their own properties. | | And, to be fair, while I don't want Apple tracking that | data (however useful/useless it may be), I wouldn't want | Facebook tracking it either. | scarface74 wrote: | Every (smart) merchant uses information from its | interaction with its customers to target better. What | overall law do you want the government to pass? | bolt7469 wrote: | My understanding of a "conflict of interest" is that they | happen when a personal interest interferes with a duty. Ex: a | company executive receiving a gift from a potential supplier. | | This situation would not be a conflict of interest because | Apple has no duty to third party advertisers | SoftTalker wrote: | Apple isn't the only online advertising platform, and they | don't have anything close to a monopoly there. They are free to | build their own ad tech and keep it to themselves, or give | themselves preferential access. | shrewduser wrote: | That's missing the point, Apple owns the platform and are | using that dominance to push people out while pushing | themselves in. | | Using your dominance in one industry like that could fall | afoul of anti monopoly laws. | paulmd wrote: | > That's missing the point, Apple owns the platform | | People make a lot of to-do about it, but, that's not really | an unusual thing in the market anymore. Sony has exclusive | control of their store, does not permit sideloading, and | no, the hardware isn't subsidized. | | https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/325504-sony-finally- | turns... | | Regardless of whether you feel that's _also_ bad, it goes | to establish that this is not unusual or particularly | noteworthy behavior. | pwinnski wrote: | Is there any evidence anywhere that Apple is doing, or is | intending to do, the same things they've blocked others from | doing? | | Apple hasn't stopped anybody from advertising, they've only | stopped them from doing overly-intrusive cross-app personal | tracking. They don't seem to intend to do over-intrusive cross- | app personal tracking themselves, so it seems to be a level | playing field. So far, at least. | yazzku wrote: | You've pretty much defined the anti-trust case in your own | sentence. | | Microsoft did not prevent other browsers from being | installed; it just shipped IE by default and made it annoying | af to uninstall. | dwaite wrote: | > ...they've only stopped them from doing overly-intrusive | cross-app personal tracking. | | They've required consent for cross-organizational tracking. | For a single organization, they have only required disclosure | in apps (via the privacy nutrition labels). | | For instance, Google can still push you to sign into a Google | account so they can add all your interactions across | services/devices to your profile. They also can still share | information between Google native apps for unauthenticated | users. This would include if they start to move over apps | from other acquired companies under the Google umbrella. | | The difference is that I can make an opt-in choice (if | possibly a difficult one) on whether I want to interact with | Facebook services directly, but I couldn't make a such a | choice before on what information Facebook was gathering | about me without my consent or knowledge via tracking. | disgruntledphd2 wrote: | Let's be clear though, the information FB got was always a | subset of what Apple got, so it's a little invidious of | them to ban cross app tracking for everyone else except for | them. | badwolf wrote: | >they've only stopped them from doing overly-intrusive cross- | app personal tracking. | | It's important to remember, they aren't stopping them from | doing the overly-intrusive cross-app tracking, they just make | you _actively consent_ to an app allowing that tracking. | hn92726819 wrote: | I'm not familiar -- do you have to actively consent to | Apple's tracking too? As in, do they give themselves some | advantage over other ad platforms? | novok wrote: | You do have to consent, but there are many parts where | they don't let you say no and continue using, while all | third parties are forced to make you say no and to | continue using. | | Apple is doing the classic "we don't share with third | parties, we just collect a shit ton of data from | everywhere and then make people buy our data indirectly | via our ad sale services" like google and facebook do | today. So it's not shared with third parties, but because | of their scale it might as well be in effect size . | pkaler wrote: | > I'm not familiar -- do you have to actively consent to | Apple's tracking too? | | It's called App Tracking Transparency and there is a | scary prompt when Facebook/others do it. It's called | Personalization and a friendly prompt when Apple does it. | selsta wrote: | These two are not the same thing. Every app is allowed to | serve you personalized ads, without asking. ATT is about | cross app/site tracking between other companies, which is | something Apple has never done. | whimsicalism wrote: | They can target you in app store based on your activity on | the Kindle app - is that not tracking? | WoodenChair wrote: | > They can target you in app store based on your activity | on the Kindle app - is that not tracking? | | It doesn't say that in the article and that's patently | false. Apple does not have access to Amazon's data about | your activity in the Kindle app. Can they potentially track | you in the Apple Books app? Perhaps, but if you trust what | they're saying, you're presented first with an opt-out | dialog about ad personalization. | novok wrote: | Apple does have access to the amount of time you open | that kindle app although ;) | ec109685 wrote: | This part of the article is wrong: | | "While Apple effectively tracks users on its own platform, the | pre-installed apps are exempted from displaying a message asking | permission to track users. | | This is because Apple's Anti-Tracking Transparency only applies | to the apps that use third-party data to track users. Since | Apple's tracking stays within its own ecosystem, the company's | native apps are not subject to the policy. An exception Apple | made for itself drew backlash, with some comparing the | "nefarious"-sounding prompt third-party developers have to show | to a far less ominous "personalized ads" pop-up Apple has to show | itself." | | Apps like Facebook can track the user any which way they please. | They can't track users in other apps without consent. | [deleted] | travisgriggs wrote: | I've been a big Apple fan over the years. They continue to grow | more tarnished for me. | | But my big problem is... where do I go? It's not like Android | phones are better--I write native apps on both, I have 9 Android | phones sitting to the left of me right now, and 6 iDevices to my | right--they're worse to use. They're a night mare to code for | compared to iOS. | | I write Linux, Windows, and Mac code from post Ives 16"MBP. The | OS is as good as any Linux I use (it's worse in some ways, but | better than others). The hardware is impressive. I have tried the | Linux on Windows stuff, Windows is the worst. | | It's not like it was 20 years ago, when MacOSX was in its | infancy, and Linux was awesome, and you could reinstall Sawfish | WM on Linux running on the Windows laptop the company gave you. | Apple hardware/software has its warts, but overall it's pretty | good stuff all things averaged. So I'd love to escape their | growingly evil ecosystem of services, but it's not clear what the | development rig better and more free/enabling than this would be. | rtpg wrote: | It's so frustrating that Android isn't better. I ... think that | it's mostly due to app design not being so great. | | But the super glib part of me is unable to escape from the idea | that there is an original sin with Android, with its | complications around activities and the like, and the JVM, that | make the weird jittery lagginess inevitable. I know that in | theory you should be able to have a high perf layer for | graphics and animations, but where is it? | | It's just embarassing that somehow we've ended up in a | situation where there is so much money poured into an "open" | (yes I know it's not open but) system and yet it still feels so | bad compared to iOS on a... 4 year old device | laumars wrote: | It's been a few years since I've ran Android but I remember | it was possible to have silky smooth animations via custom | ROMs. The problem was a lot of OEMs slapped crap loads of | bloat on an underpowered handset. | | This might not be the case any more, it's been years since | I've ran Android, but there once was a time when running | cyanagenmod (I think it was called) on a HTC handset gave you | a better experience than iOS on an iPhone. | [deleted] | lupire wrote: | Your 20 year old Linux still works. All you have to do is not | be greedy about wanting all the inventions that evil | corporations made in the past 20 years. | smoldesu wrote: | The goal shouldn't be to 'escape', but rather encourage our | businesses to do the right thing so people aren't hostages in | the first place. If Apple simply played fair, I don't think | anyone would feel the need to leave (or fear that they need | to). Perhaps this will be the ultimate test of Apple putting | their customers before profits... | | In any case, I think Linux replaces MacOS without much protest. | I hated working around Mac-specific idiosyncrasies anyways, and | while a number of devs might protest, Apple hardware makes for | fine Linux machines these days. You're right to identify that | iOS is harder to replace, but it's hard to imagine a long-term | solution that doesn't involve Apple allowing sideloading. I | really hope they do the right thing here, but that's all we can | do. | andai wrote: | I'm often reminded of Stallman's message that Free Software | would be the right thing to use, for reasons of ethics and | preserving freedom for ourselves and others, even if it were a | worse experience. (He argues that it isn't worse, but that's a | different conversation.) | sylens wrote: | I see more and more people getting into this mindset. They want | a little more openness than what Apple provides, but they want | a little more structure and direction than Android. | | I really do wonder what would happen if Microsoft made a fork | of Android with a replacement for Google Play Services (maybe | something that emulated many of the APIs, putting Google in an | ironic situation to say that its APIs are protected under | copyright law) | gerash wrote: | In terms of data protection I have friends who work at Google and | at Apple. The one working at Apple was able to check their | spouse's spending trend on App store (granted they were working | in a relevant department) while at Google reading your own data | is not even granted without justification let alone an external | user. | jiggawatts wrote: | To be honest I'm not that worried about individual employee | access. I'm much more concerned about systematic organisational | access. | | Apple might have a handful of employees misuse data. Google | will do it on purpose, at scale. | throwaway__122 wrote: | cromka wrote: | Sounds like something worth whistleblowing to relevant | authorities. Depending on where are they located, they could | even be rewarded for it. | pyentropy wrote: | Sounds believable to me. Google is really good at data | warehouse & database tech (BigQuery, BigTable, Spanner) and | access management systems, as well as sturdy custom-built tools | for internal use by employees. | | Even though it might not be intentional, Apple is lagging at | such tooling. | MisterPea wrote: | Yep. As another user pointed out, privacy tooling is a very | hard problem across a large company. When you have a cloud | platform, you're especially incentivized to build a robust | solution for this. | | I would imagine AWS and Microsoft also have a thorough | tooling solution. | summerlight wrote: | Can't say for Apple, but can confirm that it's quite | challenging to access arbitrary user data in Google without | giving good justification and all the log accesses are subject | to audit. This is not just a mere possibility; also heard that | a few cases were actually escalated and resulted in termination | because of inappropriate access. | frankfrank13 wrote: | Idk if thats super relevant is it? Will Apple employees be | handcrafting ads for the users they can see? | friedman23 wrote: | It means that Apple's care of user data is surface level. | Google is under much more scrutiny than Apple and thus takes | better care of your data. | justapassenger wrote: | Talking from experience - having a real privacy program at a | big company is really hard. Like thousands for people and | billions of dollars hard. | | And speculating - wouldn't surprise me too much that Apple is | actually weak there. Apple's approach to privacy seems to be | mainly "we just don't get your data on our servers", which | could be resulting them in ignoring how to build an actual | robust privacy program on their side for other things. | null_object wrote: | > The one working at Apple was able to check their spouse's | spending trend on App store | | You obviously could back this hearsay up with actual evidence I | assume? | summerlight wrote: | How could they? They obviously don't want to face C-suite | level retaliation who can make their life miserable over the | next 10 years. | gerash wrote: | This was a few years ago and I actually don't want to get | anyone in trouble | novok wrote: | IMO this is just an indicator of a bunch of incomplete | policies, usually something you see in smaller immature | companies. I would think apple would've tightened that up | by now, not being allowed to look up info for people you | know or personal things is usually explicitly against the | rules and can get you fired at most places! | | The only time these rules might be able to be 'broken' is | to get data to fix bugs with the person's consent. | Quarrel wrote: | "Sure, here's the screenshots I took of my wife violating her | NDA, while handing them to me to post to HN." | | Like, sure it is hearsay, but what do you want from the guy? | Most of us are sharing anecdotes that we hope we be helpful | to other HNers, most of the time. If anything, I think a lot | of people look to the experience of other users here as the | advantage. | CharlesW wrote: | "Sure it's complete hearsay, but it plays well with HN | readers so..." | [deleted] | viridian wrote: | Most points of plot are hearsay, and Hacker News isn't a | court of law. | | If I tell you that while working at unnamed multi- | national finance company we wrote software used for what | I would consider incredibly immoral, but not illegal (in | the US) purposes, I don't have any right to be believed, | but I also expect most people would believe me, because | they know how these things go in real life, oftentimes in | their own organizations. | CharlesW wrote: | The difference between "a friend who worked at Apple said | he could see his spouse's purchases" and "I worked at a | company which wrote software used for immoral purposes" | is that one is hearsay and one is not. | oliveshell wrote: | One is hearsay _to the speaker_. Unless proof is | provided, they're both hearsay all the same to the | receiving audience. | _joel wrote: | Sounds like they also breached laws, way to go. | [deleted] | verisimi wrote: | Apple = a big sandbox Google, Meta = also big sandbox Government | surveillance = Apple + google + meta = the biggest sandbox | | Which sandbox do you like to play in? Does it even matter? | Calvin02 wrote: | Tech community's response summed up in two lines: | | Targeted ads from Facebook, Google, Amazon (and soon Netflix): | fuck em! Targeted ads from Apple: well.. better Apple than | others. | | Mean while it is the businesses (and, in the end, consumers) who | bear the brunt because as ad relevancy goes down, the cost of | acquisitions and sales go up. | moolcool wrote: | As a consumer, I do not want ad relevance. In fact, I hate | targeted ads. I do not feel served when mega-corporations | unscrupulously track literally everything about me so they can | try to sell me crap I don't need. I play the worlds smallest | violin for the businesses who have to "bear the brunt" of not | knowing how many steps I've taken today, or what times I went | the bathroom. | hownottowrite wrote: | What about small mom and pop businesses that leverage | targeted ads to compete against mega-corporations? | moolcool wrote: | I have seen the opposite happen way more often. I was on | the market for a new wallet, specifically one made by a | one-man operation in France. As soon as I started looking | for reviews, targeted ads from larger brands like Fossil | and Ridge started following me. The current ad landscape | isn't giving the little guy a kick at the can, it's just | letting them into the same extortion based ad markets the | big guys compete in. | Calvin02 wrote: | I think another way to look at it is: value exchange. | | What do I get in exchange for what I share. To me, learning | about new products and services from companies that I don't | already have an existing relationship with is far more | valuable than the data shared. I want the inventor of a | better mouse trap to reach out to me and let me know of their | product. | moolcool wrote: | We're looking at asymmetrical warfare between incredibly | advanced targeting algorithms, and our monkey-brains. It's | all fun and games when you're selling moustraps, but what | about when the algorithm finds out you have a | predisposition towards addiction and realizes it can profit | from that by showing you ads for alcohol and | pharmaceuticals? | | What happens when it learns that you have a gambling | problem? | | What happens when it learns that you're a hypochondriac? | | What happens when it learns that you have a retail | addiction? | | What happens when your ad profile identifies you as | somebody who has had an abortion in one of the states where | it's illegal? Can the ad company be subpoenaed? | | What happens when an insurance company goes to a data- | broker and finds out that you've been googling cancer | symptoms? Would their access to this information change | your premiums or eligibility? | Calvin02 wrote: | > What happens when it learns that you're a | hypochondriac? > What happens when an insurance company | goes to a data-broker and finds out that you've been | googling cancer symptoms? | | 1) We cannot solely rely on Apple's selective definition | of privacy to resolve these. As an example, what if your | health insurance company offers an app and you use that | app to search for cancer? Should the insurance company be | able to use that data? We need very strong legal | protections as a more comprehensive solution that works | across all types of data companies can gather to make | medical decisions. | | > What happens when it learns that you have a gambling | problem? > What happens when it learns that you have a | retail addiction? | | 2) You need to consider that (1) advertisers don't need | to learn this! People willingly give them this data (e.g. | by signing up for a sports betting app), and (2) this | also opens the door to reach people to help them. No | targeted advertising does not mean that these societal | issues just disappear. These are still there but just | harder to see. | | > What happens when your ad profile identifies you as | somebody who has had an abortion in one of the states | where it's illegal? Can the ad company be subpoenaed? | | 3) While I abhor the decision on Roe vs Wade, let's flip | this to: what if the ad profile identifies you as a | seller of fentanyl? Would you want the ads data to be | eligible for use in prosecution? I would. Saying that | banning targeted ads protects women's privacy is security | through obfuscation. That is not a solution. | moolcool wrote: | 1) So from the jump, you're counting on legislation to | work against the interest of big insurance. You might be | waiting a while. | | 2)This position presents a pretty messed up vision of the | world IMO. As if the ideal state of things is that | Google/Apple/Meta holds auctions where Draft Kings, Poker | Stars, and a gambling support line can bid on a gambling | addict's attention. | | 3) Asserting that targeted ad sales are good because they | identify criminals is a big stretch imo | viridian wrote: | I think that we as a society decided that our solution to | people with addictive personalities is to let natural | selection take its course. There's way too much money to | to made in the misery to try to apply those brakes. | htrp wrote: | > What happens when an insurance company goes to a data- | broker and finds out that you've been googling cancer | symptoms? Would their access to this information change | your premiums or eligibility? | | Gattaca happens | bee_rider wrote: | If you are a fan of Apple, this is pretty bad news I think, | they are getting deeper into a dirty market, and will probably | get hit by the ad curse as well. But, as someone who doesn't | particularly care about them, it will be pretty funny to see | them blatantly eat Facebook's lunch. | hownottowrite wrote: | Yup. The advertising apocalypse has been a complete horror show | for many small businesses. But super excited people have their | privacy so that only the bigoted of the big can afford to show | them ads. | api wrote: | I really hope Apple doesn't turn its products to shit chasing ad | revenue like almost everything else. | | Advertising is cancer. | bumblebritches5 wrote: | subsubzero wrote: | This is by biggest concern and one of the reasons I use apple | products. absolutely ads, and now I heard that they are | injecting them into apple maps, I may have to switch to google | maps if this happens. | gjsman-1000 wrote: | Google Maps has had ads and "Sponsored Content" for quite a | while now. | Ensorceled wrote: | Yes, but if they are using a worse product because it | doesn't have ads, now that the worse product ALSO has ads, | they may as well switch back. | subsubzero wrote: | good to know, I haven't used google maps app in over 5+ | years. Maybe I will have to go with a TomTom now s/ | badwolf wrote: | You might check out Here WeGo (formerly Nokia Maps) I've | found their offline maps support is pretty great. | adra wrote: | They're reinvesting like 5-10% of profits on r&d? Something | tells me they're already living fat off their existing wins. | Ads would only further send apple into the realm of unicorn | money printing behemoths. | alphabetting wrote: | As much as advertising can suck, I highly prefer not having all | news sites hard paywalled and not needing premium subscriptions | for essential services like search, email and YouTube. | bee_rider wrote: | eMail pre-dates the ad ecosystem; search is actually pretty | nice but Google is slowly losing ground to SEO, a new | paradigm might be necessary; and YouTube is basically bad. | onlyrealcuzzo wrote: | They can't charge any more for their phones. | | How are they supposed to make more money from phones if not | taking a cut of FB's advertising money? | jesuscript wrote: | This is a company that sells 2000 dollar monitor stands. They | are into a whole different game. | gjsman-1000 wrote: | It was $1000, and actually a brilliant move because actual | Pro users don't use fixed stands (and so aren't offended), | while wannabe-Pro rich people will buy it in droves. Thus | increasing the luxury branding without actually offending | actual Pro users. For those people, the $1000 stand price is | a conversation starter and a reason to buy in itself. | goosedragons wrote: | I mean the VESA mount itself is still $200... | | I get that work is probably paying for most people's but | it's not really usable out of the box without a pricey add- | on. You can literally buy an entire monitor (with stand and | VESA mount) for $200. | api wrote: | I will happily buy into an ecosystem with stupidly priced | accessories if it has no ads and solid protection for | privacy. As soon as I see ads (in anything) it's shit. If | it's loaded with spyware and constantly invades privacy it's | shit. These are things I associate with low-end trash. | ProAm wrote: | This is also a company that stopped including chargers and | cables so they could make additional revenue from people | already buying $1000 phones. [1] | | [1] https://hypebeast.com/2022/3/apple-made-6-5-billion-usd- | by-r... | falcolas wrote: | Apple's news app is unusable for me because of the ads. Their | app store is just this side of unusable because of ads. | | To be clear: I have adhd. Ads are intentionally designed to | catch the attention of your average person with reasonable | control of their attention. I have no chance in hell of keeping | my attention on the article when I have to blast past 6-7 | unblockable ads per article. | 0xbadcafebee wrote: | If it is cancer, it's very lucrative cancer. But actually it's | not cancer, because it powers a lot of things. 99% of all | interactions that people have on the internet today is due to | advertising. Email, chat, videos, search, games, apps, news... | all created, popularized, and funded by ads. | | I would prefer it if we weren't a consumer society, if our | entire way of life wasn't powered by selling things, with | advertising being the biggest underlying aspect. If Apple is | smart they will retain their brand image of quality and elite | lifestyle, because that's how _they_ advertise their products. | But they certainly aren 't going to abandon ads. | MBCook wrote: | I'm scared they've started doing that and the customer | experience fall is just a matter of time. | stephc_int13 wrote: | This is bad news for Apple. | | I think that relying on adtech is poisonous in the long run. | gloryjulio wrote: | Apple pretends iOS is not Android, and turns it into Android | eventually. The irony | progbits wrote: | Except without 3rd party browsers and system-wide adblockers. | olliej wrote: | Sigh, I don't believe Apple's ad network tracks people to the | same extent as Google, Facebook, etc. | | But the mere _existence_ of it undercuts the privacy claims _and_ | creates a giant moral hazard (if AppStore search is lousy then | people have to buy ads /sponsored keywords, and the clear desire | for ad businesses to start invading privacy). | | I really wish it didn't exist :-/ | [deleted] | secondcoming wrote: | I, for one, did not see this coming at all. I genuinely believed | that Apple's privacy strictness was for the greater good. | | /s | idk1 wrote: | This is what the Stocks app on MacOS looks like if you scroll | down for the smallest time - https://i.imgur.com/1j7ykDw.png | | So Stocks app in MacOS, no stocks when you open it, but the news | and ads is what you see. | | I do hope we don't see ads in the Weather app at some point, that | would be a shame. | | Edit - I was curious, if you select APPL on the side and scroll a | little, you get ads too, so they're on all side tabs - | https://i.imgur.com/2X3Et0l.png | [deleted] | rglover wrote: | If that's legitimately Apple, Steve Jobs is rolling over in his | grave. Good lord. | raz32dust wrote: | Wow, that's eye-opening as an Android user and helps to put the | anti-tracking initiative into strategic perspective. Apple is | leveraging user trust to claim that it's ok for them to track | users, not not ok for anyone else. | warning26 wrote: | What I find particularly egregious is that when Apple | requests to track users, they use the text "Allow Apple to | _personalize your experience_? ", while for 3rd parties they | use the much scarier "allow this app to _track you_? " prompt | PcChip wrote: | That's straight up shady / bad faith | wafriedemann wrote: | Is this exclusive to the US? Mine does not look like that. | idk1 wrote: | This is the Stocks app in the UK. | bpye wrote: | I see it in Canada too. Really quite disappointing. | magic_hamster wrote: | Imagine paying top dollar for a premium Apple product, only to | get a soup of ugly ads in the native applications of your | device. | | As far as I know, this is the case for low end models from | vendors like Xiaomi. And even there you can turn it off. I | never dreamed of Apple doing something so detrimental to its | famed User Experience that feels so cheap and disrespectful. | cma wrote: | > And even there you can turn it off. | | Does Apple's System Integrity Protection protect apps like | Stocks? | franczesko wrote: | What is worrying is that there is no true alternative. Full- | privacy might be a very lucrative business opportunity. | whywhywhydude wrote: | I know everone hates ads, but isn't targeted ads better than | wholesale bombardment? Did Apple's blocking of facebook's | targeted ads improve the consumer experience? Or did that just | make advertising more inefficient which then led to just more | irrelevant ads. A good example would be American tv. Everyone has | to suffer to through those stupid viagra and antidepressants ads | because there is no targeting. | addicted wrote: | I strongly disagree. Targeted ads are significantly worse than | generic ads. | | The entire point of advertising is manipulating human beings. | Targeted advertising means you have even more data specific to | an individual making it easier to manipulate the individual. | More generic advertising (for example, TV ads) means all you | have is the general area they live in, or the general interest | of the individual (magazine ads). You cannot manipulate people | based on their personal traits anymore. | | The focus of the advertising shifts immediately from the | consumer of the ad to the product and/or message of the ad, | because you simply do not have enough information about the | consumer. | adrr wrote: | Targeted ads is why we see an explosions in new companies. | With traditional marketing, new companies had no way to reach | an audience effectively. You could start a company but | couldn't build a customer base. With targeted advertising, it | gave us things like free trading with Robinhood that | leveraged targeted ads to buy installs. It gave us a bunch of | new banking options that offer zero fees. It gave us new | clothing brands, razors, workout equipment, cosmetics and | washable rugs. | | Killing targeted ads will just mean the incumbents will | dominate and without competition, consumer prices will rise. | Gillette did their first price reduction because of dollar | shave club is an example. | pdntspa wrote: | You seem to say that as if it were the only way to build an | audience. There have been disruptors and innovators out | there long before targeted advertising became a thing. | | Targeted ads gave us none of the things you mentioned, it | merely gave them highly-effective ad targeting. But a | company can still buy TV ad spots, they can still spread | via word-of-mouth or grassroots campaigns, they can still | hire people to canvas and pitch, nowadays they can still go | viral. | | I agree with GP that ads are manipulation, and that we | cannot give ad people (or any people, really) tools that | are too good in this area. | | Literally every big company in existence today started | small, disrupting or innovating or just effectively | competing at something. Yet somehow they managed to become | what they are without targeted advertising? | amelius wrote: | You can have targeted ads without user tracking. E.g. you | can show job openings on a website where hackers meet. | | User tracking is absolutely despicable and must be killed. | whimsicalism wrote: | > The entire point of advertising is manipulating human | beings | | The entire point of your comment is manipulating human | beings. | | Advertising often just seeks to make a consumer aware of a | certain product. If that is manipulation, so is pretty much | any content that seeks to change what people know. | tines wrote: | I think the difference is in what the two are trying to | manipulate you to do. | | His comment is trying to manipulate the reader into | believing something that he believes is better for mankind. | He doesn't materially benefit, and the reader doesn't lose | anything. | | Ads and advertisers are not trying to manipulate the | viewers into buying a product. They are manipulating | viewers into _becoming_ the type of person that buys | products impulsively and with little research. The product | of the advertiser is not an ad; the product of the | advertiser is you. This is not to your benefit. | | So, trying to reduce gp's comment and ads in general to | equivalence is misguided imo. | fragmede wrote: | What if an advertiser truly believes in their product and | thinks it will better mankind? What if they've done a | bunch of research into the product and theirs is actually | the best on the market? I think the two are closer than | you'd like to admit. | cwkoss wrote: | Most companies brainwash themselves into thinking they | are making the world a better place. | | Selling snake oil becomes no more socially good when the | salesman deludes themself into believing the pitch. | bolt7469 wrote: | What is your definition of "a better place"? | | The vast majority of products people buy help them solve | problems of all kinds. An economic transaction is a win- | win for both buyers and sellers. Look at products like | the computer, the car, the telephone, etc. I think the | world is becoming a better place as a result. | cwkoss wrote: | Silicon Valley had a great bit about this kind of | thinking: | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8C5sjjhsso | pb7 wrote: | Most people brainwash themselves into thinking their | opinions are right and others' are wrong. | tines wrote: | That's not really how things work in a modern context. | Today we have to distinguish between the people making | the stuff, who really may "believe" in their product, and | the people advertising those same products, who don't | care, and who aren't the ones creating anything of value. | | As a shoemaker, you might think your shoe is the best | shoe on the market. Google doesn't care which is the best | shoe. Google simply sells a product, namely, a credulous | audience, to the shoemakers, who want buyers. And their | ecosystem is bent toward improving that product. The | shoemakers' noble ends don't justify the evil means of | the advertisers. | | This is kinda what I take the old adage to mean, "If | you're not paying for the product, you are the product." | You might think that Youtube, Facebook, Instagram, | TikTok, etc. are free services because they don't cost | you money. But that's like saying that a stay at the | butcher's is free for the cow. They're not free at all; | advertisers have to pay good money for access to their | product, which is you. | | Or so my view goes :) I could be wrong though. | GekkePrutser wrote: | > Advertising often just seeks to make a consumer aware of | a certain product. If that is manipulation, so is pretty | much any content that seeks to change what people know. | | That's what advertising used to do before tracking was a | thing. When this was introduced the industry realized that | targeting and manipulation is far more profitable and this | made ad campaigns that don't do this unviable. Because | nobody ever wants to go back to a lower profit margin. | GekkePrutser wrote: | PS Not sure why I get 0 points here :) I have it on good | authority from some webmasters that were trying to offer | non-tracked ads that advertisers simply don't want them | anymore. | | They're so addicted to tracking, and 'retargeting' | (meaning repeat ads) that they're just not paying for | untracked anymore. Not nearly enough to make an ad- | supported website work anyway. | | Due to GDPR and the cookie ban, things are turning in | Europe though. Because now they no longer have the | choice. | hutzlibu wrote: | "Advertising often just seeks to make a consumer aware of a | certain product." | | And this is why _shiny new product_ is often placed along a | half naked beatiful women or alike? Sex sells? | | Some marketing indeed exists, that just tries to make a | consumer aware of a product. But most marketing campaigns | try to associate a certain product with certain attractive | person/livestyle/object. | | The Malboro Man, the Taste of freedom. Etc. | | It is highly manipulative to its core. And with targeted | ads, you can play with the target persons fears and desires | in a automated way. So far this likely not happening (very | well), but the potential is very real and dark. | whimsicalism wrote: | > And this is why shiny new product is often placed along | a half naked beatiful women or alike? Sex sells? | | If anything, this was more common in the pre-internet | advertising age. Can't remember the last time I saw an ad | like this. | hutzlibu wrote: | It is still totally a thing, it just takes effort to | notice it, since it is so common. Also there is still | nondigital advertisement. | airstrike wrote: | > The entire point of your comment is manipulating human | beings. | | The difference is in the intention for said manipulation. | His comment isn't trying to get us to part with our hard- | earned income for ultimately frivolous goods. | PM_me_your_math wrote: | "frivolous goods" | | Sure, if the good or service is actually frivolous, but | what about the case where the human is actively searching | for some good or service that offer some actual value? | whimsicalism wrote: | Is there no such thing as a win-win? If the business | makes money off of a sale and the consumer gets a product | they actually wanted? | | Or is the default mode of operation always the consumer | losing and the business winning? | airstrike wrote: | If I actually wanted the product, I probably didn't need | the ad. I just needed to know about it in a very factual | manner | crakhamster01 wrote: | There's so much noise online now, ads are necessity for | me to eventually find something I like. | | As an example, a couple of months ago I was searching for | some new summer outfits. Went through Google, Reddit, | various clothing blogs, catalogs, etc. but didn't find a | lot that I liked. After a week more of targeted ads on | Instagram, I was finally able to discover brands that fit | my tastes. | | Unless I'm buying something well-defined like a TV or | Airpods, passive exposure via targeted ads has been one | of the best ways for me to find something worth | purchasing. | whimsicalism wrote: | Sometimes ads do that. I recently had a purchase that I | got a lot of value off of based on an Instagram ad to my | partner. I would not have known about the product | otherwise. | airstrike wrote: | The issue is "sometimes" probably amounts to ~1% of the | time, based on my made up anecdotal observations. | buttersbrian wrote: | Hard disagree. | | You may want a THING, but you don't know about a | particular brand or style of said THING. Just by making | you aware of them can be a win win. | | Say you've been researching "THINGS" for a couple weeks | and narrowed it down to 2 brands. An Ad pops for a brand | you'd never heard of. Naturally you check it out, only to | find out its better than either of the options you were | previously considering. | pb7 wrote: | What's frivolous about a wallet or a sweater? Ultimately, | all your hard-earned income is to make your life easier | via goods and services, some of which may be frivolous. | If you can't trust yourself not to make all frivolous | purchases, that's a problem you can try to solve on your | own. | airstrike wrote: | How many wallets or sweaters does one need? That is the | reason I included the word "ultimately" in my comment | | I'm not arguing we don't need to buy anything ever. I'm | arguing most ads are either pushing stuff you don't | _really_ need 99% of the time or selling outright junk. | And let 's not get into how close some ads are to plainly | false advertising (I'm looking at you, wellness / | nutrition) | Brusco_RF wrote: | Sounds like you are experiencing poorly targeted ads if | 99% of yours aren't things you need :) | | Question. If your ads were perfectly targeted in that | 100% of advertised products were something that you're | interested in, is that not ideal? Isn't that what | companies like Google and Facebook are trying to do? | Wouldn't you be happier if you didn't get the Wellness / | Nutrition / Viagra ads? | lostlogin wrote: | > Advertising often just seeks to make a consumer aware of | a certain product. | | It wants to get me to buy. Any stated aim less than this is | a waste of their money. | freedomben wrote: | I studied and worked in marketing for a little while | before becoming disgusted by it and leaving. The vast, | vast majority of ads have a primary goal of raising | awareness, not triggering a purchase. It's extremely hard | (and often ineffective) to trigger a purchase, unless the | ad is seen while literally standing in front of the | product at the store. The best marketing technique is to | raise awareness of the product, so that when the user | thinks about their own need, your brand/product is the | one they think of as a solution. | whimsicalism wrote: | Perhaps a consumer who is aware of a product is more | likely to buy it? | buttersbrian wrote: | I disagree. Manipulate is not only loaded, but it is the | wrong word. | | Ads attempt to persuade. They can be implemented in | manipulative ways, but ads aren't inherently that IMO. | Mikeb85 wrote: | > The entire point of advertising is manipulating human | beings. | | That's quite cynical. No the point is to connect products to | interested consumers. Case in point: we recently had a baby | so I've been googling for baby stuff. Now I get some ads for | more baby stuff. It's relevant to my life far more than | Viagra ads or whatever other generic ads could be shown to | me. It's not exactly manipulation because I do need lots of | baby stuff. | amelius wrote: | The problem is that advertising never gives you balanced | information. | | You would be better served by talking to other parents, by | reading information from consumer organizations, by reading | reviews, even by talking to shop personnel (where multiple | brands are sold). | jahewson wrote: | Counterpoint: what makes you think you need lots of baby | stuff? | Mikeb85 wrote: | Well, we have relatively little baby stuff compared to | some parents, it's still enough though. Some monitoring | tech, stroller, car seat, bassinet, diapers, clothing, | some early age books to help develop eyesight | (supposedly), plus bath stuff. | | I guess we could raise him in a cardboard box, bathe him | in the sink and not have half this shit that's really for | our convenience, but it is all convenient. We're | definitely not going that crazy compared to the typical | American/Canadian parent... | hn92726819 wrote: | Wouldn't you prefer to realize you need something, and | then you actively go and get it? I don't want to be | manipulated into thinking I need something subconsciously | just because I've seen it a bunch of times. | a11r wrote: | It depends. Sometimes you don't know that a solution | exists for your problem. | amelius wrote: | I think it would be more healthy for your kid if you | talked to other parents (and not just for finding | solutions to problems). | Drakim wrote: | Deodorant became popular after advertisements started | emotionally negging people by implying that they were | stinky and everybody around them were laughing behind their | back. | | Connecting products to interested customers often involve | manipulating the customer into being interested. Think | about sugary cereals targeted at kids with songs and | colors. | Brusco_RF wrote: | As usual with matters of opinion, there is a positive and | negative way to frame everything. You framed the | negative. Allow me to frame the positive: | | The human condition has been improved now that we all | spend $3/mo on deodorant. | amelius wrote: | You highlighted an important point: ads only frame one | side of the story. | | If you want the full story, look elsewhere. | lumb63 wrote: | I think an important part of your statement is "interested | consumers". A consumer who is not interested should not | have to be bombarded with advertisements. At this point | (making someone do something they do not want to), is where | it becomes manipulation. | | For instance, I have no interest in receiving snail-mail | ads for credit cards. I am happy with the ones that I have | right now, and regularly research on my own via trusted | third parties to see if any are available which would be of | interest to me. Still, I am unable to stop receiving mail | advertising credit cards to me. There is not even recourse | I can take because states have fallen for the same | "connecting producers to consumers" argument as above, in | the most broad sense, where every human is a potentially | interested consumer for every single product. | | The business is worse off (because they pay to advertise to | me, and I will not get one of their credit cards), I am | worse off (because I am upset I receive this mail), the | planet is worse off (deforestation), others are worse off | (perhaps the time spent by postal workers delivering me | junk mail could improve service to others or reduce costs). | | So while I agree that advertising is not inherently | manipulative, when the audience is captive and | uninterested, it becomes manipulation. | invig wrote: | Captive? At what point does personal accountability | matter? Everyone's choosing to be there and look at this | stuff. | amelius wrote: | Psychological manipulation is a thing. People write | dissertations on this stuff. These people are then hired | by advertising companies. Often the people they target | are children or adolescents. | lumb63 wrote: | It matters at the point when an individual is accountable | for having seen the ad. There are countless situations | where you cannot possibly perform any normal function of | life (shy of sitting in the house and having someone else | do all interaction with the outside world): | | - Billboards. You cannot possibly keep these out of your | peripheral (or center of) vision while driving without | endangering everyone else on the road. - Mailed | advertisements. You have to check your mail, for example, | for legal summons, that you are required by law to | respond to. - Public transit (lest I be auto-shamed). You | cannot, where I am, even look toward where a train | arrives, without seeing ads. | | To remediate just these three advertising venues, you | have to drive and board public transit with your eyes | closed and not check your mail. These aren't even | activities I'd consider voluntary - people need to get to | work to support themselves, and check their mail for | legal purposes. Unless your argument is that we all make | choices to participate in our sovereign nation's legal | structure and to have jobs that require leaving the home | (not everyone can work in a cushy remote role). | bagacrap wrote: | "making someone do something"? what kind of ad does that | describe? | lumb63 wrote: | Any ad that is sent to a person does not want to see it, | in an intrusive way such that they cannot avoid it. The | "something" is "looking at it." | heavyset_go wrote: | Fun fact: the original word used for 'advertising' was | 'propaganda', and advertising uses several propaganda | techniques. There's nothing cynical about that, it's just a | fact. | Terretta wrote: | Imagine a world where, if interested in baby stuff, you | paid money for articles on baby stuff, and advertisers knew | to buy pages of ads among those articles; or if you watched | TV shows about people doing baby stuff, advertisers knew to | bookend those shows with baby stuff? | | Research shows _contextual advertising_ (the way it was | done for ever before retargeting became a thing) beats | retargeting for both purchases per dollar of ad spend and | consumer appreciation / satisfaction (versus annoyance). | amelius wrote: | I'm reminded of the time when I bought BYTE magazine, and | when holding it sideways a huge pile of ads fell out of | it. | | But, yes, you are right. Even this was infinitely better | than the current situation with ads. | pb7 wrote: | I've purchased a handful of things that I have scoured the | internet for hours and couldn't find because they later | came up in an ad randomly. I am extremely satisfied with | the products. In fact, the only thing I'm not satisfied | about is how much time I've spent fruitlessly which shows | search is still an unsolved problem. | tomxor wrote: | That something has some positive utility does not justify | all negative consequences. | | For instance installing publicly accessible cameras in | all rooms in all homes would help reduce domestic abuse, | however that obviously does not mean it's a net social | good. In the same vein helpful target ads do not make up | for all of the other shenanigans in manipulating people | politically. | amelius wrote: | You should opt-in then to the silo where we will put all | ads after we ban them from public view. | ohwellhere wrote: | > > The entire point of advertising is manipulating human | beings. | | > No the point is to connect products to interested | consumers. | | You're both right in identifying points of advertising, and | they're not in conflict. | | Advertising has _two_ points, which I phrase as: | | 1. Increasing consumer awareness | | 2. Increasing consumer demand | | Increasing consumer awareness generally feels useful: | that's finding out what baby products exist, or showing | people a new invention or service. | | Increasing consumer demand generally feels manipulative: | that's showing sugary cereals and crap toys to children, or | associating vaping with success, etc. | | The two goals usually are working together -- but I find it | useful to separate which parts of the advertisement are | doing what. | saiya-jin wrote: | It _is_ manipulation of you, towards specific product, | within domain you look for. So you and your | subconsciousness are outright attacked to buy product whose | manufacturer paid the most, regardless of actual quality. | | (ie we also buy baby stuff but sure as hell the best | products are not ie 'pampers' which are in every freaking | ad block on TV I ever saw, probably... same for thousand | other household products, advertised ones are very rarely | proper high quality within their category, since so much is | spent on pushing them down everybody's throat). | | I can't comprehend how otherwise smart folks can't grok | this basic principle of advertising, its pure logic and | simple follow-the-money principle. Its fight for your | wallet, and your brain controls the wallet. Maybe it | doesn't insult your intelligence to be manipulated like a | sheep, but it sure does mine. | lioeters wrote: | I think the field of advertising successfully whitewashes | its own public image as innocent and neutral, "connecting | products to interested consumers". It's the same as in | politics, religion, finance, insurance, and other kinds | of mass fraud and racketeering - hypnotizing people with | smoke and mirrors, make belief, a theatrical performance. | It's insidious and sneaky how it masquerades as normal, | how entire individual lived experiences are spent in | manufactured illusion, a system of exploiting human | beings through psychological manipulation, and extracting | value. | AlexandrB wrote: | > Everyone has to suffer to through those stupid viagra and | antidepressants ads because there is no targeting. | | This is no worse than suffering through "Raid Shadow Legends" | ads because I have a "gamer" bit flipped somewhere in Google's | profile of me. 99% (or even 100%) of stuff advertised to me is | hot garbage, even if I'm in the right demographic for the | product. | | The problem is that targeting is only part of the equation of | what you see. The other part is the advertiser's budget. And | companies that spend big on marketing are often either selling | digital crack (e.g. gacha games, scams, gambling) or simply | have the most capital investment (startup of the week, | manscaped, Nord VPN, etc.). Neither scenario is a good signal | of quality. As a result, the safest approach as a consumer is | to ignore _all_ ads. | spaetzleesser wrote: | when I am on a kiteboarding forum I prefer to see ads that are | relevant to kiteboarding and not ads for hand mixers just | because I looked at or bought one last week. | | I also think targeted ads are really bad for society in | general. They have incentivized the building of companies that | have created massive surveillance and manipulation systems on a | scale nobody would have dreamt of some decades ago. Think about | Stalin or Hitler having the datasets Google or Facebook have | built up and how they could have used them. I can't see | anything good about targeted advertising unless you buy into | the vision that people's only purpose in life is to buy things. | buzzy_hacker wrote: | No. Because targeting means you've built a profile on me by | collecting data about my habits and interests without | permission and will sell/leak that to god knows who. Websites | can tailor their ads to the audience likely to visit them. | makestuff wrote: | I would be fine with paying for youtube premium, etc. if they | did not track and build profiles on paying customers. I get | mining my data in exchange for using it for free, but I do | not think it is fair to mine data on paying customers without | giving them some discount/opt out. | andsoitis wrote: | You can turn off personalized ads on iOS | https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/control-how-apple- | del... | | Turn personalized ads on or off Go to Settings > Privacy & | Security > Apple Advertising, then turn Personalized Ads on | or off. Note: Turning off personalized ads limits Apple's | ability to deliver relevant ads to you. It may not reduce the | number of ads you receive. | hurril wrote: | Plus: they're often even worse than the wholesale because | what they think they know about me is basically always pure | nonsense. (Other than offering me an ad to buy the book I | just fckn bought.) | [deleted] | enkrs wrote: | I live multiple lives. I'm a father, a businessman, have | multiple hobbies, do sports. Targeted ads mean this info can be | combined. I can be profiled and abused. Algorithm has | calculated what I might impulsively buy and shows me that | personalized ad everywhere. | | Non-targeted ads do not mean viagra ads. Non-targeted ads still | have the context of the website/app I'm using. | | Non-targeted ads mean that I can get ads about specific | hardware when I browse my hobby forums; I can get ads about | some interesting SaaS when I browse my work related news sites. | I don't get anything that's targeting some calculated | personality quirks of mine to the highest ad bidder. | malfist wrote: | I would argue no, but that is my opinion. | | The reason for my no is that if there are ad agencies committed | to building a profile of you, that's far to easy for that | profile to get sold/stolen by bad actors. For example, if I was | a trans man, and I was buying feminine hygiene products, I | could be targeted for harassment by a leaked advertising | profile. | | If there's no money in building profiles it makes it less | likely that one will be built, not that it can't. But that's a | reasonable tradeoff to me. | crazygringo wrote: | Seriously. I literally have gone to the page for my Google | advertising profile and updated my interests to be more | accurate. | | Targeted ads usually aren't trying to trick me, they're telling | me about products and services I genuinely don't know about. | Maybe this will shock people, but I have actually bought things | linked straight from ads a handful of times. (Only a handful, | but that's more than zero.) | | I infinitely prefer targeted advertising rather than the | horrible lowest-common-denominator generic non-targeted "grow | your dick" and "one weird trick" and "millionth website | visitor" garbage. (I just wish there were a button for "don't | show me ads for humidifiers anymore because I already bought | one after researching, I'm not gonna buy another". So that the | targeting worked even better.) | vehemenz wrote: | Sure, but it's not as if the data used to create the targeted | ad disappears after the ad is served, or that the data in a | single, secure location. It's shared with 100 other analytics | companies and could end up in the hands of your health insurer, | or God knows who else. | rebeccaskinner wrote: | I'm against all ads, but I'm particularly against targeted ads | because building and tuning systems that are designed to track | people and personalize messages to influence behavior have far | too many uses that are far worse that convincing someone to buy | some pants or whatever. It's highly tuned and personalized | psychological warfare at scale, that can be deployed for any | number of reasons. | bee_rider wrote: | I will add yet another voice to the heap saying "nope, targeted | is worse." The point of ads is to trick me into buying | something I don't need, I'd rather they were less efficient. | | Further, lots of smart people are working on the project of | ads. Talented programmers and data scientists. Hopefully less | efficient ads will result in a less lucrative ad sector, and | more of these folks can be convinced to do something productive | with their talents. | scarface74 wrote: | Doesn't it say more about you than the advertiser that you | are allowing yourself to be tricked? | bee_rider wrote: | Sure -- ads are a billion dollar industry so apparently | they are getting some people to spend money they wouldn't | have otherwise, what is says about me is that I don't think | I'm somehow uniquely immune to them. Naturally, like most | technically inclined people, I've adjusted to this | vulnerability by using an ad blocker. | okamiueru wrote: | If you want a contrary opinion, I disagree. On the face of it, | I agree with your premise. However, targeted ads unfortunately | also means creating profiles which are sold to data brokers. | Targeted ads are I suppose ok. However, collecting data, | profiling and selling to whomever is paying has very | significant ramifications. | | If advertisers figure out a way to target ads without | profiling, I'm all for it. In fact, it's not that uncommon for | me to watch "sponsors" on YouTube. It's targeted because people | who are watching a video on mechanical principles, might be | interested in.. Say "brilliant". | | That said. VPN services and ear pods can gf themselves. | avianlyric wrote: | Apple blocked targeted ads based on track individuals, and | collecting personal data. There are plenty of ways of serving | targeted ads without the tracking. | | The most obvious approach is content based targeting. If | someone is reading an article about baby names, put ads for | baby clothes next to it. If there're reading an article about | cloud infrastructure, put an AWS ad next to it. | | People managed to make and sell perfectly good adverts long | before Facebook and Google came along. Have you never noticed | that every advert in a trade magazine targets people in that | trade? | robbyking wrote: | I understand your point, but there's a difference between ads | targeting specific audiences and ads targeting specific | individuals. | ec109685 wrote: | They didn't block targeted ads based on collecting data. | Facebook can collect all the personal data they want and use | it for advertising. | | What they can't do w/o consent is collect data from third | party apps and use that to target users in other apps. | tomp wrote: | The more targeted an ad, the more it manipulates your mind. | dbtc wrote: | Maybe not so much for the individual user's experience, but | society as a whole. | | We're seeing that targeted (political) ads are a powerful way | to hack a democracy. | | If everyone is seeing the same shitty advertisement, at least | they have something to complain about together - even that much | common ground is better in my opinion than everyone with their | own version of reality. | wbsss4412 wrote: | I don't see how targeted ads are any less insufferable than a | viagra ad. I don't watch ads for fun. | | No matter how "relevant" an ad may be, you're still breaking | context to insert yourself, and distract me from, the thing I'm | _actually_ interested in. | stormbrew wrote: | > Or did that just make advertising more inefficient which then | led to just more irrelevant ads. | | Why should I care about the "efficiency" of the ads I'm being | served? It's not my job to help them exploit me. | rixthefox wrote: | I think that's the model everyone (eg: your average consumer) | likes and is most familiar with. | | Advertisements on TV are tolerated because it's not targeted | and just a random broadcast to everyone who might be | interested. | | Anxiety that certain things may be used against you in the form | of advertising is a very real problem people face. A teenager | who is researching transgender topics would be potentially | frightened if the TV station the family usually watches that | never shows any ads about transgender health suddenly started | pushing those kinds of ads and the parents disapproved. | | The problem lies in the tracking technology. In order to make | informed decisions about what people might potentially be | looking to buy includes learning that individual's preferences | and the rather unfortunate part of everything being online is | that includes everything you could possibly imagine. Everything | from the type of job you have right down to your porn | preferences and other proclivities are potentially up for grabs | and I'm sure the vast majority of people would feel greatly | unnerved if Google, Facebook or whoever showed them just what | kind of person the algorithms have determined them to be just | by the data they've already collected. | MobiusHorizons wrote: | If they were any good I might agree. But in my experience ad | targeting just fixates on things you recently looked up, or | actually already purchased. I don't recall ever finding a | product through a targeted ad that I didn't already know about. | tomComb wrote: | Also, targeted ads can be very useful for small businesses | trying to reach their target market. | | Untargetted ads tend to be big companies promoting their brand. | magic_hamster wrote: | First of all, yes I rather get irrelevant ads than being | targeted. If you worked in certain industries you know that | some advertisers are extremely cynical, and I simply don't want | to be in a constant state of mental warfare against these | people. This has a real effect on stress and in my opinion is | worse than seeing an irrelevant ad. At least I know this ad | isn't tracking and profiling me. | | There is also the concept of identity, and specifically, who | owns your identity. If you are the owner of your own identity, | including interests, wants and needs, then no company should be | allowed to create a profile of your identity ("shadow profile") | without your permission. However, the big ad corporations like | Google and Facebook (and recently TikTok) all create shadow | profiles for you, like it or not, with or without your consent. | Why are they allowed to do this? Should I not be paid if my | unique identity is being used and monetized? | whimsicalism wrote: | This "ownership of identity" complaint makes no sense to me. | You are the owner of your identity, but I would still be free | to think you are an asshole if I so wanted (I don't, to be | clear, just an example :) ) | | Making inferences about you doesn't mean you "own" your | identity less. | magic_hamster wrote: | Of course you can think what you like of me, but how did | you obtain this opinion? In all likelihood, from a personal | interaction - perhaps you met me or replied to my misguided | comments. Now imagine a person constantly badgering you for | personal information that you don't want to share, and then | using whatever info they found to manipulate you. There's a | law against that, it's harassment, nobody wants this. But | when a machine does it, it's supposedly okay. | | I would consider consenting to being tracked and offered | personalized ads if I got paid to see these ads. If I am | the owner of my identity, I should be the one monetizing | it. Why would I agree some corporation should make money | off of my very being? I resent that. Either don't profile | me (especially against my will) or compensate me. | | Getting paid for your thoughts is not something new. People | are constantly being paid to take part in focus groups, AB | testing, polls and surveys. So why not pay you for the | right to use this information in advertising? | whimsicalism wrote: | > imagine a person constantly badgering you for personal | information that you don't want to share, and then using | whatever info they found to manipulate you. There's a law | against that, it's harassment, nobody wants this. But | when a machine does it, it's supposedly okay. | | Badgering you for personal information? You are freely | choosing to go on their site and interact with it how you | want. The comparison with "harassment" seems extremely | hyperbolic. | | > So why not pay you for the right to use this | information in advertising? | | You're being compensated by using their free product, | which you are free to not use. | magic_hamster wrote: | > You are freely choosing to go on their site and | interact with it how you want. | | Only that the entire effort of collecting your data and | profiling you happens without you being able to notice, | stop or interfere (unless using some extension or | sometimes a specific browser). It's more akin to you | visiting public places (the visible websites) while a | creepy stalker follows your every move and tries to | profile you. That might be a form of harassment, but even | if it isn't, I rather avoid this situation. | | > You're being compensated by using their free product, | which you are free to not use. | | You might not be awere of how some of this works then. | TikTok can seemingly track users visiting WebMD and | Weight Watchers [1]. You can visit the webpage of your | church, a clinic or even some municipal authorities and | still get shadow profiled. And TikTok is new to this. | Imagine the data collected by Google and Facebook. | | We're not talking about visiting websites like YouTube | where you enjoy a "free product". We're talking about | virtually any website you visit including some essential | services. | | [1] https://www.consumerreports.org/electronics- | computers/privac... | unionpivo wrote: | No targeted ads are worse in several ways. | | 1.) It's one of the main reason why surveillance capitalism is | so widespread. Some of the worst things that came out of tech | in past 20 years are directly or indirectly connected to | "targeting ads". | | 2. ) Better name for targeted adds would be Machine driven | adds. And with it comes the counter part of machine driven re- | posters re-blogers, ai generated spam content etc. If you | didn't have all those "targeted" machine driven networks there | would be a lot less reason to build such sites. Since most | advertisers would not want to advertise on such sites if they | had a choice in it. | | 3.) With all the crap they bring, they still suck at targeting. | They either focus on one search you did a while ago to the | exclusion of everything else, they to sell you same expensive | stuff for months after you already bought it, or completely | irrelevant most of the time. | | 4.) They make pages load slower, sometimes a lot slower. | cush wrote: | > but isn't targeted ads better than wholesale bombardment? | | Better by what measure? Not at the expense of privacy. Where is | the data going? Who is it being sold to? | | Sure, American TV ads are annoying, but they're predictable and | sometimes entertaining. American TV ads are so inefficient that | they need to work for your attention. | | One issue with targeting is receiving antidepressant ads, | knowing the algorithm knows that you're depressed. Or receiving | baby ads when the algorithm knows you were expecting, but | doesn't know you had a miscarriage. There are countless | examples of targeting being a danger to the public as well, | being used for very effective misinformation campaigns. | JimDabell wrote: | > I know everone hates ads, but isn't targeted ads better than | wholesale bombardment? | | There's a lot of people disagreeing with you, but it's missing | the point, I think. | | Everybody can get the experience they want; both you and they | can. You can get targeted ads by accepting when an advertiser | asks to track you. They can get non-targeted ads by rejecting | when an advertiser asks to track them. | | The key thing here is that everybody is given the choice. And | that's Apple's only requirement - they haven't banned tracking, | they have banned tracking without asking the user for their | consent first. | northerdome wrote: | I remember Steve Jobs explicitly forgoing ads for iCloud during | his last keynote in 2011. So sad to see where Apple is today. | https://youtu.be/KTrO2wUxh0Q?t=412 | | > We build products that we want for ourselves, too, and we just | don't want ads. | WoodenChair wrote: | One of the reasons I pay a premium to use Apple's products is to | not be part of an advertising ecosystem. I am disappointed that | this seems to be changing. Ads in the App Store are one thing-- | ads in Maps, Books, and Podcasts as the article suggests may be | coming in the future--will drive me to use premium (even if | they're paid) alternatives. At a minimum, people who pay for an | Apple monthly iCloud subscription should be able to opt-out (not | just of tracking, which already exists, but seeing ads all | together). | htrp wrote: | > At a minimum, people who pay for an Apple monthly iCloud | subscription should be able to opt-out (not just of tracking, | which already exists, but seeing ads all together). | | The premium is just an opt-out of the ads (on the specific app) | .... the tracking is where the value will be in the future | tomcam wrote: | I for one am shocked. Simply shocked. | pid_0 wrote: | twsted wrote: | I am really worried about this. | | I would have hoped Apple stayed away from this business. | | This is greed, imho. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-10-03 23:00 UTC)