[HN Gopher] Matter Is Now Official
___________________________________________________________________
Matter Is Now Official
Author : itherseed
Score : 239 points
Date : 2022-10-04 17:20 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (staceyoniot.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (staceyoniot.com)
| glitchc wrote:
| When I hear Thread, I see this:
|
| https://static3.depositphotos.com/1003681/166/i/950/depositp...
|
| (Slight tongue-in-cheek) That's the first hit from Google.
| joezydeco wrote:
| Google is involved? _hard pass_.
| rektide wrote:
| And 550 other companies, working on a standard.
|
| This kind of response is harmful. Google is not all bad. Orgs
| are complex entities with a lot of competing interests. Using
| shit-colored shades exclusively to view anything is too
| limiting & sad a way to go.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| How many companies are involved in the USB-C debacle? It
| seems to me like there's many companies involved with
| different and competing interests, yet nobody is sounding the
| alarm bell over USB-C 5 Pro Max SuperSpeed 2x2 10G.
| mnd999 wrote:
| Google is pretty bad, and there's no way I would buy any
| Google manufactured device (hunk of e-waste?)
|
| Your point is valid though, there are hundreds of other
| companies involved in this standard, many of them will make
| fantastic devices and there's no reason to ignore them all
| because of one bad vendor.
| smoldesu wrote:
| If you want software to improve, you need to encourage
| companies working together on initiatives like this. Both
| Google and Apple suffer from this lack of communication,
| and it's led to shitty protocols time-after-time. If we
| start with Matter, maybe we can break down other arbitrary
| barriers like iMessage and the App Store/Play Store. Then
| we don't have to resort to antitrust litigation!
| croes wrote:
| Maybe be it's not all bad but it gets worse
| joezydeco wrote:
| No, it's a warning. If Google's enthusiasm for this protocol
| makes or breaks Android compatibility with Matter, what
| happens when (not if) they walk away?
|
| I don't trust Apple and Amazon to keep the faith either, but
| Mountain View is the weakest link here.
| systemvoltage wrote:
| Yeah, look at the insanity in Chrome. It is open source but
| that's just the lip service. I want Google nowhere near my home
| gadgets. It might play a docile role and then eventually devour
| the entire project with funds/influence.
| init2null wrote:
| Amazon is influential enough in home automation that it won't
| happen. Alexa is the most likely home assistant to respond in
| American homes. Apple is a long ways behind, but they have
| enough stubbornness and power to keep their influence in the
| decision making as well.
| vanviegen wrote:
| Just lip service? Chromium (and blink and v8) have been used
| as the basis for a significant number of important open
| source projects.
| systemvoltage wrote:
| And yet there isn't a popular ungoogled Chrome Browser
| taking market share away.
|
| Chrome's popularity dwarfs any other project by a factor of
| like a million.
|
| Getting enamored by OSS virtue signaling is how Big Tech
| rules the world.
| amelius wrote:
| See also:
|
| https://staceyoniot.com/google-and-amazon-speak-very-differe...
|
| Google and Amazon speak very differently about Matter
| dariusj18 wrote:
| I guess we'll just throw out the W3C too
| denton-scratch wrote:
| That was sarcastic, right? But I have to say that recent
| (last 10 years) W3C decisions seem to me to have been to the
| benefit of FAANG, not me.
| dmitriid wrote:
| And we should. In the past several years Google has subsumed
| w3c and rams its non-standards through at neck-breaking
| speed.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| What is the coolest thing you can do with a smarthome? The single
| biggest selling point?
|
| Seems like you can basically just control appliances from your
| smartphone. Seems like such a small benefit (frankly I wouldn't
| even use it) for such a large effort, not to mention the security
| and data integrity problems.
| salmo wrote:
| I got a Google Home as a raffle prize and didn't see the point.
|
| But my house was built in the 70s and has almost 0 ceiling
| lights in the room. So I started buying smart outlets for the
| lamps so I could just turn the room off by yelling at it.
|
| My wife switched us to Alexa because she had an app that would
| let her do her billing through voice (start working on John
| Doe's case, stop).
|
| I've expanded the lights through the house, I use routines to
| do stuff like turn off my bedroom light, turn on the fan, and
| turn on a "rain on a tent" sleep noise thing.
|
| We use it as an intercom for the kids and to make announcements
| like "dinner time."
|
| I got an Amazon TV on prime day because it was cheap. It's
| kinda handy to be able to yell at the TV when the kids lose the
| remote. Not super useful.
|
| We all use the things to listen to music. I have mine paired
| with nice speakers in my office.
|
| I gave up on being spied on. Everything I own is feeding back
| to Google, Amazon, and Apple. Probably China too with my cheap
| outlets.
|
| I stick smart devices on a separate 2.4GHz Wi-Fi network that
| also can't route to my main one, but that's just to keep
| inevitable compromises contained and not fill my network with a
| bunch of chattering nonsense.
|
| I wish Alexa would let me name it whatever I want vs the choose
| 1 of 3 names. There are more satisfying names to yell.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| There are cool things you can do with a smarthome, like let a
| friend into your house remotely, but those aren't the selling
| features.
|
| The selling features are the boring things. Like connecting a
| light switch to a lightbulb without having to pull wires
| through external walls. Or instead of waking up to an annoying
| alarm clock wake up to your blinds opening.
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| Agree, there's no one life-changing killer feature, but
| there's lots of small ones.
|
| For example my thermostat goes up to 85 when I'm not at home,
| and I set it to a more comfortable temperature before I head
| home (it'll automatically get more comfortable when I arrive,
| but on hot days it's nice to pre-cool). You could accomplish
| something that works maybe 90% as well with lots of effort
| and a programmable thermostat, but this is more or less
| automatic.
|
| My entryway light turns on automatically when I get home
|
| I can turn off the lamp upstairs while I'm laying in bed,
| without having to get up.
| rustyminnow wrote:
| Agreed about the little things. The best thing I've done is
| put a floor lamp on a timer... which sounds really lame but
| was so nice since there wasn't a light switch or outlet
| switch in that room.
|
| I had it come on in the morning before I get up, then turn
| off after I leave for the day. Turn on in the evening, and
| off at bedtime. You can get mechanical timers for that, but
| they don't adjust themselves for daylight savings or changing
| sunrise/sunset times. I was going to set it up to stay on
| longer when it is dark and overcast out, but I moved to a
| place with better switch placement, so never did.
| kevinsundar wrote:
| I'd like to chime in and agree. It's the little things.
|
| Through HomeAssistant (HA) I have a spoken notification to
| remind me to run the dishwasher right when the electricity
| time-of-use peak pricing ends each day. It also flashes a
| light a specific color when it says it so even if the tv is
| on loud, it'll get my attention.
|
| HA automatically turns on my desk light when my webcam turns
| on.
|
| HA allows me to remote-start my car with a Siri shortcut,
| instead of having to dig through the terrible manufactures
| app.
|
| HA lets me know if I forgot to lock the door to my house.
| ricardou wrote:
| I set up water sensors under the kitchen sink and in bathroom
| vanities. Each of them cost about $20 and integrated into my
| Home Assistant setup without any issues. Three months later, I
| was on vacation away from home and my water leak alert
| triggered. I was able to alert my parents, and they came back
| to shut the water and fix the problem before it translated into
| thousands of damages.
| [deleted]
| mike-cardwell wrote:
| I plugged my dumb washing machine, dishwasher and tumble dryer
| into some zwave plugs which can report on energy draw. Hooked
| it up to Home Assistant, which is hooked up to Alexa. Now
| whenever any of my dumb washing machine, dishwasher or tumble
| dryer finish a run, it announces through my echo dot that it
| has finished. This is pretty useful to us as the washing
| machine and tumble dryer are in the garage, and the dishwasher
| finished beep is pretty quiet.
| ricardou wrote:
| I've set up QoL notifications. One of my proudest compares the
| internal temperature of my home and the external temperature.
| If it's colder outside by a significant margin, I get a
| notification on my phone and TV letting me know so I can open
| my windows and get fresh air.
|
| Other things include scheduling my lights (internal and
| external), unlocking my front door and garage with NFC stickers
| (sticker on my car dashboard or front door).
| hinkley wrote:
| The coolest thing you can do is throw a dance party with
| lighting effects.
|
| I'm not sure I would have any idea what the _best_ thing is
| that you could do, however.
| dmitriid wrote:
| Honestly, there are no good applications beyond the most boring
| ones like turning your lights on automatically when the sun
| goes down.
|
| Some people _can_ figure out how to setup more complex things
| like "star my coffee when I wake up while gradually bringing
| the lights up" etc., but the whole experience is abysmal, and
| worse than Linux in the 90s: you need separate apps (or code
| stuff with Homebridge), all the devices have extremely limited
| capabilities (esp. when trying to control them centrally
| through e.g. Homekit), tgey are extremely brittle and disappear
| from your network if you look at them funny etc.
|
| It's like Apple's Siri: good in commercials, but only good
| enough to set a timer. Same here: good in commercials, only
| good enough to turn on and off based on a simple timer.
|
| Edit: I have a lighting setup with IKEA smart bulbs, Philips
| Hue lights, a smart plug on the balcony. I doubt I will ever
| touch another smart device beyond these.
| iamjackg wrote:
| One thing I've learned over the years is that this 100% depends
| on you and nobody's answer will really satisfy you, because the
| needs and routines of every individual can be radically
| different.
|
| Do you care about energy consumption? If you do, you can pull
| in all that information into a dashboard, evaluate your usage
| patterns, and craft automations that ensure you're being as
| efficient as you want. Turn your lights/AC/music on and off
| when you go from room to room, etc.
|
| Do you care about micro-optimizing your time usage? Create
| automations that support your daily routine. Tie your coffee
| maker's smart plug to the next upcoming alarm on your
| smartphone so you have breakfast ready by the time you get up.
| Have your garage door open automatically when it's time to go
| to work, and it's not a holiday, and your phone is at home, and
| your car is in the garage.
|
| Do you care about eye strain? Have your smart lights change
| colour to match the light temperature of sunlight throughout
| the day.
|
| Do you care about silly things that make you feel all powerful?
| Have your lights turn off, some white noise start, and all the
| smartphones in the house switch to Do Not Disturb when you plug
| in your phone to charge next to your bed after 10PM.
|
| The sky is the limit. Over the years I've ping-ponged between
| "eh, this is not really worth it" and "this is actually
| incredibly convenient" depending on how my routine has changed.
| hwbehrens wrote:
| My kids were scared of the dark, and letting them control the
| bathroom and hallway lights by voice (from their cozy beds)
| saved me from many late-night wakeup calls.
|
| A smart home is just a problem solver, and everyone has
| different problems.
| sbf501 wrote:
| The best part about this is we finally have some kind of broad
| certification. Amazon has a similar process, but it is currently
| in its infancy. The process may not be perfect, but it is now in
| place, which means it can be augmented. I hope this means the
| free-for-all of insecure IoT devices starts to diminish.
| mmastrac wrote:
| There's a lot of VC blood on the floor that bought us this common
| standard. Standardization is tough or impossible in a market that
| is minting unicorns -- we just had to wait for things to cool off
| before we could agree.
|
| This is one of the gotchas of our current tech world: money
| drives progress, but that progress is almost always at the
| expense of cooperation.
| fulafel wrote:
| Is there an open source implementation?
|
| On the threadgroup.org web page it has an ad to "Gain
| intellectual property rights for Thread technology" - what does
| this mean?
| balloob wrote:
| Yes! It's maintained by the members of the CSA alliance (which
| authors Matter). It means that Google, Apple and Home Assistant
| will all run the same controller code and benefit from bug
| fixes. Chip manufacturers like Espressif and Nordic maintain
| implementations for their boards in there too, so anyone can
| now have the software to produce Matter compatible light bulbs.
|
| https://github.com/project-chip/connectedhomeip
| moooo99 wrote:
| I'll be closely following the development of matter, especially
| when it comes to compatible devices. Cloud dependency of many
| devices for the most basic functionality offered is an absolute
| dealbreaker for me. While I doubt that there will be meaningful
| change when it comes to the app mess retrofit smart home systems
| tend to create, I really do think matter will offer significant
| improvements. Knowing that I will still be able to dim my smart
| lights even if company X goes bankrupt makes is slightly easier
| to justify spending the premium on smart bulbs.
|
| Also, I really hope that having one universal application level
| protocol for a variety of devices will further improve the home
| assistant experience. While the device support is great for many
| big brands, smaller brands (especially those outside the US) are
| sometimes lacking integrations.
| RetpolineDrama wrote:
| >Cloud dependency of many devices for the most basic
| functionality offered is an absolute dealbreaker for me.
|
| Story time: My internet got taken out by a dude with a backhoe,
| took a week to get repaired. I then discovered that my $4k
| 8Sleep mattress is entirely incapable of _any_ form of local
| control.
|
| I have to bounce a packet off AWS to change the temperate of my
| bed, on a $4k piece of hardware. (I'm not mentioning the price
| to brag, but to point out the absurdity).
|
| That and they couldn't even be bothered to put an RJ-45 on the
| back, so it completely failed when I migrated my main wifi to
| WPA3.
| quadrifoliate wrote:
| What I don't like about Matter is that the participants in the
| standard itself don't seem to be proceeding with the ideal of
| having an abstract, unified control device. From a further link
| [1] from the posted article:
|
| > Consumers will still need a lot of apps: One of the initial
| promises of Matter was that consumers would be able to add a
| device -- like Amazon's Echo -- to their smart home controller
| but wouldn't have to download a special app for every outlet or
| light switch they bring into the home. But at launch, and
| likely for a couple of years as the standard gets more robust,
| consumers will still need apps for anything beyond the basics,
| including installation. Even my panelists realized that this
| was the case.
|
| I hope these companies realize that they are basically
| excluding themselves from a _lot_ of potential customers by
| pulling this crap. I would have put smart bulbs as upscale
| stocking stuffers every holiday season if it wasn 't for the
| fact that I have no idea what product / version / "ecosystem"
| the potential recipients use. "Just install a new app" is not a
| reasonable solution.
|
| ----------------------------------------
|
| [1] https://staceyoniot.com/5-ways-matter-will-disappoint-
| users-...
| jkestner wrote:
| Right - there was no way that the giants would partner
| together unless they could create their own wedges. It seems
| that there will be a baseline standard that allows end users
| to use their hardware on any one of the platforms, but each
| platform will have their own requirements for developers,
| starting with proprietary integration for the "best customer
| experience".
| balloob wrote:
| Give it some time. Since the software for devices is all
| available as open source, I expect a lot of commodity
| products (lights, switches) to be made available as pure
| Matter, without any apps, because it reduces the software
| development costs. The Matter early adopter companies are all
| companies with more expensive product lines.
| ezfe wrote:
| HomeKit doesn't require an app for each device - sounds like
| Matter doesn't _need_ one either, it 's just that many
| devices expose controls Matter doesn't support.
|
| My HomeKit light switch doesn't have an app on my phone at
| all, never installed one - just scanned the HomeKit code and
| set it up.
| Analemma_ wrote:
| It depends. A lot of HomeKit devices have basic
| functionality through just the Home app, but if you want
| anything advanced, you need the device app. My Philips Hue
| bulbs only do "gradually brighten at sunrise" through the
| Philips app, and Nanoleaf panels need their app to do
| anything more complex than on/off.
| MBCook wrote:
| You're not wrong. But I'm excited anyway.
|
| The fact I can (soon) stop having to check _every_ device I'm
| interested in to see if it works with my ecosystem is great.
| I won't have to settle for a worse device because the good
| one is Alexa (or whatever) only.
|
| Also? Thread rules. WiFi has been (mostly) reliable but needs
| constant power. Every Bluetooth home automation device I've
| tried was a total mess of pairing/connection issues. Thread
| devices have worked great so far so I'm happy to see it
| continue to get popular.
| mox1 wrote:
| A co-worker and I were just talking about Matter yesterday.
| Underneath the hood this runs on a networking protocol called
| "Thread"[1], which itself uses IEEE 802.15.4. This is pretty
| similar to ZigBee. Thread runs on 2.4ghz.
|
| Thread uses ipv6 and UDP (TCP optional), so it should integrate
| well with existing network infrastructure.
|
| 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread_(network_protocol)
| tveita wrote:
| I was curious how Thread compares with ZigBee in power usage.
|
| One white paper I found suggests that Thread uses slightly less
| power. E.g., for a device on a CR2032 battery sending a packet
| every minute, with ZigBee they estimate the battery lasting
| 1.38 years vs 1.49 years with Thread.
|
| https://infocenter.nordicsemi.com/pdf/nwp_039.pdf
|
| But another white paper at
| https://www.ti.com/lit/an/swra595/swra595.pdf has them the
| other way around, by about the same amount.
|
| Either way I guess it's close.
| [deleted]
| quadrifoliate wrote:
| > Underneath the hood this runs on a networking protocol called
| "Thread"
|
| This is correct, but potentially leaves out a level of
| abstraction [1]. Matter is _designed_ to abstract away multiple
| networking protocols, including Thread and Wi-Fi.
|
| Philips Hue, for example, plans to support Matter but not
| Thread [2].
|
| ----------------------------------------
|
| [1] A bit like saying "HTTP runs on TCP". It _usually_ does,
| but it 's not necessary to the standard.
|
| [2] https://matter-smarthome.de/en/interview-en/we-dont-have-
| pla...
| RetpolineDrama wrote:
| What's hue's deal with not supporting thread? Seems far
| superior to their current setup.
| ktta wrote:
| You can always read what the GP linked. It details why
| pantalaimon wrote:
| I'm always a bit confused what does thread add on top of
| 6LoWPAN?
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| Do any of these devices support powerline networking? Would solve
| so many problems.
| [deleted]
| djhworld wrote:
| I've been holding off buying any new smart bulbs etc. until this
| is finally a widespread thing, I just hope manufacturers are
| quick to get on board.
|
| I have a few wifi bulbs in the house which are ok but you need a
| special app to use them and I can't see a way to integrate them
| into Home Assistant as it's some proprietary thing from TP-link
| ('TAPO') - I'm not making that mistake again!
| leonsmith wrote:
| The spec is behind a lead capture form so direct links below:
|
| https://csa-iot.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/22-27349-001_...
|
| https://csa-iot.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/22-27350-001_...
|
| https://csa-iot.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/22-27351-001_...
| enjoylife wrote:
| It's 900 pages long, I don't have a good point of reference so
| I'll ask. Is this a small or large reference doc compared to
| alternatives?
|
| Or phrased another way. Will no name, cheap devices ever
| properly implement this spec?
| balloob wrote:
| They will because there is an open source reference
| implementation that they can use: https://github.com/project-
| chip/connectedhomeip
| rhco wrote:
| For reference, the IEEE 802.15.4 spec is ~800 pages long. 900
| pages does sound like a lot considering that Matter (AFAIK?)
| doesn't directly spec any hardware or transport details -
| those being covered in 802.15.4 and Thread.
|
| Granted, we should remember that those 900 pages include base
| details that, probably, CSA are not planning to change in the
| foreseeable future. They need to be very thorough.
|
| To answer your real question: device manufacturers will
| likely use the Matter SDK. It would be a huge undertaking for
| a smart-light manufacturer to re-write all of that code from
| scratch!
| stoplying1 wrote:
| Doesn't Matter require device attestation? To me, this says,
| "Matter will never be compatible with cheap DIY devices like
| ESP32 devices". And also makes me suspicious of being able to
| create a Chromecast competitor that removes ads, or whatever.
| balloob wrote:
| Matter certification requires that controllers do attestation
| (validate that the device says they are who they say they are)
| but you are allowed to offer an option to users to bypass it
| (like Apple does today for HomeKit today).
| FerdSlav wrote:
| The official Matter SDK has examples targeting the ESP32, along
| with other low-cost chipsets: https://github.com/project-
| chip/connectedhomeip/tree/master/...
| donatj wrote:
| Neat. I've been using the Alexa phone app as a centralizing tool
| for all my smart home junk, and it works (usually), but it's
| awkward.
| balloob wrote:
| At Home Assistant we're very excited about Matter.
|
| Here are some highlights for us:
|
| Open source reference implementation: Google, Apple, Home
| Assistant, we're all going to be running the same code to be a
| Matter controller. Chip manufacturers like Espressif and Nordic
| maintain implementations for their boards in there too, so anyone
| can now have the software to produce Matter compatible light
| bulbs. https://github.com/project-chip/connectedhomeip
|
| It will be cheap: The software is freely available and works with
| a big audience. It's the same reason Android TVs from some
| manufacturers are cheap, the same will be the case for Matter
| lights and switches.
|
| Multi-fabric: each Matter device is required to support 5
| fabrics. A fabric is a Matter network. This means that you will
| be able to run multiple home automation controllers at the same
| time. So when run into the limitations of Google Home or Apple
| Home, you can try out Home Assistant without taking down your old
| system.
|
| Easy sharing of devices: Because of multi-fabric, it will be as
| easy as hitting a share button to get a device added to another
| fabric. See this example of Android
| https://twitter.com/home_assistant/status/157703612255503564...
|
| Local: all communication for Matter is happening local between a
| device, a thread border router (if thread-based Matter), and the
| controller. Note that your controller can still decide to store
| your data in the cloud (ie Amazon, Google).
|
| Supported by major systems: Amazon, Apple, Google and Home
| Assistant are all building the open source Matter code into their
| systems. It means that for manufacturers it will be easy to pick
| Matter as the protocol they want to support to reach most users.
|
| Works over IP: Matter works over IP and doens't care how that IP-
| based device communicates. It means that you can have Wi-Fi based
| and Thread-based devices co-exist on your network. Thread is not
| required if you don't care about such devices.
|
| Bridges are part of the standard: Devices like Philips Hue hubs
| are going to get an upgrade to expose all the Hue lights over
| Matter via the hub. This makes integrating a whole ecosystem at
| once into Matter very easy.
|
| Thread: Thread is a mesh networking standard that connects to
| your Wi-Fi network via border routers. Where Zigbee and Z-Wave
| need to mesh communicate all the way to your controller, Thread
| messages will be delivered via Wi-Fi/ethernet as soon as
| possible. This means it is a lot more reliable and less traffic
| is going over the mesh. Expect cheap border routers (open source
| reference implementations) but also expect them in your future
| Wi-Fi routers, voice assistants, Wi-Fi connected TVs etc.
|
| Paulus /Founder Home Assistant https://www.home-assistant.io
| matharmin wrote:
| Thanks, this is the first explanation I've seen of how the
| ecosystem actually fits together, and what Thread and Matter
| would mean for end users.
| balloob wrote:
| Brought to you by our $20k/year annual membership fee that
| Home Assistant, an open source project, pays to be a member
| of the CSA alliance and be able to contribute to the open
| source Matter reference implementation.
| mortenjorck wrote:
| _> Matter lets devices communicate with bridges and controllers
| locally, which means that your smart home will still work when
| the internet goes down, and some devices may still have basic
| functionality even if they lose their cloud connection because
| the device maker goes out of business._
|
| While I'm glad perfect did not become the enemy of the good and
| we actually have a standard now, I hope the consortium doesn't
| stop here, and keeps moving toward more vendor-agnostic,
| consumer-friendly standards.
|
| _> Originally, Matter was supposed to handle enough elements of
| provisioning and functionality so users wouldn't have to download
| an app. In most cases, users will still need to do so._
|
| While I also hope Matter doesn't turn into USB-IF ("Matter 3.1
| Gen 2 SuperSpeed"), some clear evolutions or optional
| certifications (especially something for long-term, in-case-they-
| fold functionality) would be good to see them working toward.
| joshstrange wrote:
| My biggest issue with Thread is (AFAICT) it gives each device
| access to the internet. That's the absolute last thing I want and
| the reason I went 100% Z-wave (with a handful of legacy zigbee
| devices). I want a single point of local hardware that my devices
| talk to and that hub can talk to the internet as needed but I
| don't want to have to vet every device or deal with companies
| going out of business.
|
| As it stands now I don't care at all who made my Z-wave
| switches/bulbs/plugs, they could already be out of business for
| all I care, that's not the case with 90% of "smart home" shit I
| see online. "No hub" means "absolutely not" for me because that's
| a wifi device with full access to your network (unless you
| segment) and the internet.
| gerdesj wrote:
| "it gives each device access to the internet". I'm sure it's
| for your own good! I imagine the Matter SIG/Alliance is a who's
| who of data muncher and fetishists.
|
| Let's wait and see what this thing really looks like.
| [deleted]
| sbf501 wrote:
| Is it access to the internet, or access to the internet through
| a gateway (other than the primary router)? That's a big
| difference.
| clairity wrote:
| no, thread is a rebranding (and evolution) of the zigbee
| protocol, which is a low-power, local mesh network with no
| inherent internet connectivity. zigbee/thread devices work
| offline first, with switches that are an integral part of the
| local mesh network. these devices can also be connected to the
| internet through a hub/border router, if you so choose. matter
| is the umbrella brand name for the combo of BLE, wifi, and
| thread that provides a complete IoT ecosystem.
|
| i have a bunch of zigbee devices (mostly ikea tradfri) that i'm
| eager to upgrade in the hopes that i get more reliability and
| speed out of my connected devices (mostly lighting).
| FerdSlav wrote:
| Stating that Thread is a rebranding of Zigbee is incorrect.
| Both are based on 802.15.4 for their physical layer but the
| two are entirely separate and managed by different standards
| bodies (Zigbee under the Zigbee Alliance, now CSA - Thread
| under the Thread Group). Where some confusion may come is
| that Matter is now also under the CSA (just like Zigbee).
| bombcar wrote:
| Why the HELL do companies and whatnot keep rebranding from
| something INSANELY EASY to search like Zigbee to something
| ENTIRELY GENERIC like thread?
|
| _explodes_
| sekh60 wrote:
| At least it wasn't Nintendo in charge of the naming, then
| it would be New ZigBee.
| phpisthebest wrote:
| because they do not want you searching for protocol
| compatiblity, they want you to lock into a vendor
|
| they want you to look for "Alexa" or "Google Home" or
| "Apple HomeKit" labels, not "Zigbee" or "thread" or "zwave"
| balloob wrote:
| Because they didn't. The only thing that Thread shares with
| Zigbee is the radio. It's a completely different standard.
| piceas wrote:
| I suspect it is desirable as one is supposed to search for
| the marketed products. The magic smoke that binds the
| device to the app or blinky lights is of little importance.
| joshstrange wrote:
| If all they do is connect to the hub and then the hub
| controls all external access then that's fine. I'm just
| unclear as to why there is so much talk about
| IPv6/cloud/TCP/UDP for something that is only talking to a
| local hub. I mean I totally get you can use all of that (save
| for "cloud") 100% locally but if that were the case I'd
| expect more mention of that. I'm ok with using wifi-adjacent
| for communication, internally but I do not all my "thread"
| devices to have internet access (local or external).
| bisby wrote:
| > Bluetooth Low Energy for provisioning via a QR code,
| while it relies on Wi-Fi for high-data rate connectivity
| and Thread for low-data-rate communications.
|
| They will only use "thread" for low data rate
| communications. They will all have Wi-Fi. thus the
| ipv6/cloud/tcp/udp talk.
|
| I want _just_ thread out of these things. I want my devices
| to talk to my zwave/zigbee/thread network and to not talk
| to the cloud without my permission.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| > They will all have Wi-Fi.
|
| AFAICT, devices that don't need high-data rate
| connectivity aren't required to have WiFi. IOW a thread
| camera will have WiFi but a thread light switch doesn't
| have to.
| bisby wrote:
| If some devices aren't required to have WiFi, then how do
| they effectively mesh with other devices? If I have a
| camera on the far side of my house, and then have a daisy
| chain of light switches back to my hub... the camera can
| communicate over zigbee/thread back to the hub to get low
| data instructions. and all the switches can get on/off
| commands.... but the camera has to communicate all the
| way back to the hub via WiFi. Which makes the WiFi not
| really a mesh, but a standard WiFi connect to the hub.
|
| And I assume there is no way to make sure that the camera
| never connects to the internet without setting up
| firewall rules on my router. Because the announcement
| specifically calls out the ability for smart devices to
| phone home as a perk, I imagine blocking devices from
| phoning home isn't an option, and you have to assume that
| any device with WiFi will attempt to phone home even if
| it's not "smart".
|
| If there was a way on hubs to have mobile phone like
| permissions. "This device can use local WiFi" and "This
| device can access the internet for Smart stuff" as
| separate permissions, I might be ok. But since most WiFi
| IoT devices are dumb and just punch a tunnel through your
| firewall so you can access them with a mobile app and
| wind up in botnets, I don't have a lot of faith in IoT
| companies to do it right, so until I can be assured (and
| verify myself) that WiFi doesn't mean "can phone home",
| theres no way in hell Im going to use Matter wifi
| devices.
| clairity wrote:
| yup, i should have noted that wrinkle in my original
| comment. some devices will have wifi connectivity built
| in because they need the bandwidth (and maybe the wider
| access too), but many won't, because they don't need the
| bandwidth nor the higher power consumption that comes
| with it. zigbee/thread-only devices can't route to the
| wider internet directly because of protocol differences,
| which is why it needs the border router, but obviously
| wifi connected devices can. what matter does is
| standardizes this combo behavior across devices for
| interoperability.
| jcrawfordor wrote:
| The idea of thread is that it is basically IPv6 over
| Zigbee, in the form of 6LoWPAN which is an IPv6 stack
| optimized for low-power devices with an addressing,
| discovery, and routing mechanism designed to work well on
| mesh networks like Zigbee.
|
| To some extent, Thread and Matter are direct replacements
| for Z-wave at different levels of the stack. There are some
| different pros/cons between the two though. The major
| advantage of 6LoWPAN is that it shares a lot of the design
| and implementation with existing network stacks and can be
| carried directly over IP networks. This is expected to make
| more complex 6LoWPAN topologies much easier to implement
| (e.g. 6LoWPAN traffic can be easily forwarded over the
| internet by a gateway). None of this is really anything
| that can't be done with Z-wave, but 6LoWPAN makes it easier
| by having a lot of common design and implementation with
| ubiquitous IP stacks. Matter itself has the major advantage
| of being a newer and higher-level design than Z-Wave which
| should result in more consistent interoperability of a
| wider range of devices.
|
| Z-wave will probably remain superior for battery-powered
| sensors into the future, because Thread doesn't allow for
| the extremely aggressive sleep schedules (e.g. sleep mode
| for 18 hours at a time between supervisions for security
| sensors) that Z-Wave does... although we can of course
| debate how wise it is to only perform supervision every 18
| hours, even if UL allows it for burglar alarms.
| azdle wrote:
| I believe would be more accurate to say it's Zigbee over
| IPv6.
|
| IIRC Zigbee is: 802.15.4 -> "Zigbee"
|
| And my (mostly incomplete) understanding of matter is
| it's: 802.15.4 -> 6LoWPAN -> Thread -> "The device model
| of Zigbee"-like Application Layer (for thread devices)
| jcrawfordor wrote:
| I'm using the terminology in a confusing way. Thread and
| Zigbee are _both_ protocols on top of 802.15.4, but to be
| fair to myself there is a really common tendency to refer
| to "bare" 802.15.4 as Zigbee mostly because of the
| history. Zigbee is a very "thin" protocol though compared
| to Thread which is a lot more ambitious, but at the same
| time Zigbee goes more into application space... which
| kind of makes the point that Thread and Matter are a lot
| more "detailed" than Zigbee, which is minimalistic to the
| degree that interoperability of Zigbee products has
| always been very poor. This is one of the major reasons
| that Z-Wave mostly replaced Zigbee in the "smart home"
| space. It standardizes more functionality that Zigbee
| does. Thread and particularly Matter, in turn,
| standardize even more than Z-Wave (e.g. many of the
| things that are Z-wave config "mystery registers" that
| vary between manufacturers are included in Matter specs).
| Marsymars wrote:
| > This is one of the major reasons that Z-Wave mostly
| replaced Zigbee in the "smart home" space.
|
| It did? I moved into a new home a year ago and have been
| outfitting it with smart devices. I have no real
| preference for Zigbee but ended up with a bunch of Zigbee
| devices and zero Z-Wave devices.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| Being able to work without internet access is a requirement of
| the standard AFAICT.
| operator-name wrote:
| It's a real shame that home networking equipment don't have
| better firewalls or VLAN capabilities.
|
| With a simple (open,pf)sense firewall, ubiquity AP you can
| easily configure a WiFi network that is completely internal and
| can talk to each other, but not to anyone else.
| sekh60 wrote:
| After reading /r/sysadmin for years I have zero faith in the
| average user's ability to use such a device. The closest
| thing I have ever seen was some D-Link router that had the
| option for a DMZ
| operator-name wrote:
| Of course, but I'd also argue that smart home appliances
| are mainly for those with some technical knowledge,
| especially configuring them to work together. It's actually
| no linger uncommon to find networking gear with these
| features, only that most people just use what their ISP
| gives them.
|
| It's a matter of defaults - isp provided firewall/routers
| these days commonly come with a guest WiFi mode, and good
| ones even segregate that network. I can envision an iot
| mode that would a large minority of users could use.
| There's always going to be users who don't care, or don't
| have the technical knowledge, but recognise that stories on
| /r/sysadmin skew away from the "average user".
| jnwatson wrote:
| It isn't exactly home networking, but Ubiquiti's stuff has
| good VLAN and firewall capabilities.
| ars wrote:
| My understanding is it gives them an IPv6 address, but that
| does not mean they have internet access unless there is a hub
| that connects between the two.
|
| There's no WiFi, they use Zigbee behind the scenes, what
| changed is that they are addressed via IP, but it's still a
| strictly local network.
| FerdSlav wrote:
| Thread and Zigbee are entirely distinct protocols; Matter
| does not use Zigbee in any way, at any layer of the stack,
| with the exception of some influence on the high-layer
| device/data modeling
| bisby wrote:
| > There's no WiFi
|
| > Matter uses Bluetooth Low Energy for provisioning via a QR
| code, while it relies on Wi-Fi for high-data rate
| connectivity and Thread for low-data-rate communications.
|
| So you say no WiFi but the post specific says WiFi. And if
| there's wifi then I have to set up my network to ensure they
| don't have internet access, thats not something Im going to
| leave up to the honor system.
| ars wrote:
| The WiFi is in the hub. You should read it more carefully.
| Fricken wrote:
| In the 80s my dad controlled the lights in our home using the
| Radio Shack plug 'n power system. Plug-in switches and the
| control box would talk to each other by sending signals through
| the home electrical wiring.
|
| There was no need for wifi or Bluetooth or rc or anything funky
| like that. It was about as dumb as a smart home could get.
|
| http://www.trs-80.org/plug-n-power/
| jcrawfordor wrote:
| As it stands now I don't care at all who made my Z-wave
| switches/bulbs/plugs
|
| This is maybe an optimistic view of Z-wave in my mind... early
| on quality and reliability problems were nearly universal with
| Z-wave devices, and today I have a fairly short list of brands
| I trust (e.g. Zooz) after having been burned by a series of
| devices with various firmware bugs or just very poor lifespans.
| The best story I have is the lightbulb that would turn on every
| time it received an explorer packet, and thus every time my hub
| at the time ran a heal, which was of course scheduled at 2AM
| every day and not easy to disable due to the hub's poor
| firmware. This was years ago, but then there's still a
| surprising number of Z-wave devices on the market that are
| _just_ Z-wave, not the poorly named Z-Wave Plus or Z-Wave Plus
| V2, and thus have _significantly_ inferior network reliability
| if there are any changes in the environment. In any modestly
| challenging environment (e.g. battery powered device a few
| walls away from the nearest powered device) I have gotten used
| to having to try out multiple products before finding one that
| was reliable, and that was even after learning not to buy
| anything that wasn 't at least "500 series" (Silicon Labs part
| number for Z-Wave Plus).
|
| Even Enbrighten, a former GE brand and so ostensibly reputable
| (this of course depends on how familiar you are with the GE of
| today) is shipping some total garbage that they haven't even
| bothered to develop real documentation for. Curiously, I've
| found that some Enbrighten products and Zooz products are
| physically identical to the degree that I think they are both
| sourcing some of their hardware from the same manufacturer...
| but Zooz has very noticeably superior firmware.
| colordrops wrote:
| I've got about 20 zwave devices by all of the manufacturers
| you mention on my network and they have all been very
| reliable after a year of use. I had a lot of reliability
| issues at the start, but they all ended up being due to two
| issues:
|
| * Signal strength. Getting more repeaters and devices fixed
| this * Flaky service implementation. Uprading ZWave JS on
| Home Assistant and adding a monitor that got ZWave JS to ping
| devices when they were unavailable as made the system very
| reliable.
| RetpolineDrama wrote:
| >My biggest issue with Thread is (AFAICT) it gives each device
| access to the internet.
|
| Uh what? This is definitely not the case with my nanoleaf
| bulbs..
| FerdSlav wrote:
| Thread is an IPv6 bearing mesh network; and if you have a
| border router that has the appropriate IP routing rules, and
| your firewall allows it, your Nanoleaf bulbs can most
| certainly reach out to the internet (granted, they only have
| the concept of IPv6, so a majority of the internet is
| inaccessible if only because it is IPv4)
| bisby wrote:
| Yeah. I was very excited about this until i got to "Bluetooth
| Low Energy for provisioning" and I was like "oh.." and then
| "Wi-Fi for high-data rate connectivity" was a "oh. no thanks."
| That's a clear path to the internet and also using multiple
| radios so that if I lock down one thing I have to constantly
| worry about others.
|
| As it stands I dont see this being a thing that benefits me. It
| is more likely that this pushes smart home manufacturers away
| from Zwave, and makes my life worse because now I can't buy IoT
| devices without granting them internet access. Then I have to
| go through and start setting up IoT VLANs to quarantine
| devices, and in some really shitty cases, Ive seen WiFi devices
| where the app sends a message to a server, and the server sends
| a message to the device... so I can't quarantine the device
| without modifying it or losing functionality (see MyQ garage
| door openers). The industry looks bleak.
|
| Agree on all points of preferring Z-wave though and it's also
| what I use. However, Linus (of Linus Tech Tips) recently redid
| all the switches in his home with Zwave switches... and they
| had a firmware issue... And the company refused to publish
| firmware updates in any way except through "official" Zwave
| hubs, and not Home Assistant. It eventually got sorted out, but
| Zwave isn't necessarily intrinsically failproof either.
| joshstrange wrote:
| > Agree on all points of preferring Z-wave though and it's
| also what I use. However, Linus (of Linus Tech Tips) recently
| redid all the switches in his home with Zwave switches... and
| they had a firmware issue... And the company refused to
| publish firmware updates in any way except through "official"
| Zwave hubs, and not Home Assistant. It eventually got sorted
| out, but Zwave isn't necessarily intrinsically failproof
| either.
|
| Yes, I followed that drama as well and the did eventually
| make the newer firmware available to HA and similar though
| that doesn't exactly negate anything I said. For new
| features/fixes you are dependent on the manufacturer but
| that's the same everywhere. The big difference is that if
| Linus' switch company went out of business then his switches
| would continue to work the same way they always did (bugs and
| all). But I do agree with you Z-wave isn't perfect and does
| sometimes require a little more knowledge to work with.
|
| Thankfully I'm all set currently (aside from the SmartThings
| rug-pull that I have to deal with and finally move everything
| remaining to HA instead of using my ST hub as just a
| controller from HA) and I'm just going to sit tight over the
| next few years and see how things shake out before I
| upgrade/replace any of my gear.
| bisby wrote:
| I was just referring to your comment:
|
| > As it stands now I don't care at all who made my Z-wave
| switches/bulbs/plugs, they could already be out of business
| for all I care
|
| If the company was out of business and there was no way to
| get the newer firmware, LTT might have had issues. Also,
| buying a switch because it is advertised as having feature
| X, only to find out that feature X was added in a newer
| firmware than you have, and you can't get that firmware.
| That means it isn't just a "I dont care at all who made my
| product" scenario. It's much lower risk (especially if the
| feature you want is basic functionality rather than
| automation), but it's not 0 risk.
|
| I agree with you that Z-wave is going to be 100% better
| than WiFi devices that call home and join a botnet, but I
| wanted to make sure it was clear that there is still room
| for issues.
| lapetitejort wrote:
| Even if new firmware is out, you're not guaranteed to get
| it. Linus got it because he has millions of subscribers
| and if he makes a stink, companies have to listen. If
| you're a boring customer with just one twitter account at
| your disposal, you may never be able to update.
| zamalek wrote:
| > Zwave isn't necessarily intrinsically failproof either.
|
| The one nice thing about it, above Zigbee, is that you can
| expect devices to work together. With Zigbee you frequently
| have to pair a device with a hub from the same manufacturer.
| oasisbob wrote:
| You would think so...
|
| On the other hand, Zwave radio spectrum varies depending on
| region, so you need to be very careful that you don't spend
| hours troubleshooting something that doesn't work because
| it's a device intended for the EU market instead of US.
|
| IIRC, Zigbee is better here.
| alex3305 wrote:
| Although you can easily circumvent this with a cheap Zigbee
| USB controller, Raspberry Pi (or other computer) and
| something like Zigbee2MQTT. My IKEA bulbs, Xiaomi sensors
| and Philips remotes all work great as a mesh.
| phpisthebest wrote:
| I have more zigbee than i do zwave, never had a problem
| with either pairing to my Nortek USB Hub
| the__alchemist wrote:
| Your first paragraph describes my reaction as well. The
| article's overture was a roller coaster.
| RetpolineDrama wrote:
| WiFi is only for devices that need it, like I'm thinking a
| "matter"-provisioned wireless security camera.
|
| It definitely confuses the user story though, idk why they
| included wifi at all.
| realityking wrote:
| I suspect a big part is to allow bridges like the new IKEA
| hub. Lots of folks put those in wifi.
| FinalBriefing wrote:
| Based on my IoT devices I already have, any device that
| supports Matter will probably use Wi-Fi to ping back home
| whenever they can.
| bisby wrote:
| From the actual announcement:
|
| > Wi-Fi enables Matter devices to interact over a high-
| bandwidth local network and allows smart home devices to
| communicate with the cloud.
|
| If only there was a way to have it explicitly NOT
| communicate with the cloud. That's the last thing I want.
| jsight wrote:
| Doesn't Z-Wave require a fairly proprietary implementation,
| that is also having the side effect of propping up the price?
| jcrawfordor wrote:
| Yes, Z-Wave as as protocol is basically synonymous with a
| Silicon Labs product line, to the degree that the different
| versions of the Z-wave standard are more often referred to by
| their Silicon Labs part numbers (500 series, 700 series).
| This does seem to hold up the price of Z-wave products but,
| to be fair, they end up still being pretty competitive with a
| lot of other options, although usually more expensive than
| the most cost-optimized WiFi products like Tuya devices.
| azdle wrote:
| > My biggest issue with Thread is (AFAICT) it gives each device
| access to the internet.
|
| Thread is a protocol, this is only as true as the statement
| "WiFi gives each device access to the internet".
|
| It _can_ give devices access to the internet, but only if you
| plug your (border) router into an internet connection. (Or
| otherwise bridge the networks. Your border router could still
| have internet access itself without bridging the thread network
| out to the internet.)
| RHSeeger wrote:
| Given that most people will use their one and only router for
| this, it means most of these devices will have access to the
| internet. Sure, you _might_ be able to prevent it if you jump
| through hoops (because it really is annoying to setup a
| second wifi network, at least in my experience) and assuming
| the devices don't fail if they can't phone home (and we can
| be sure some will). But everyone is much safer overall if the
| "common standard used by most people" did not use wifi.
| happyopossum wrote:
| > But everyone is much safer overall if the "common
| standard used by most people" did not use wifi.
|
| What wireless protocol has the range to cover an entire
| house or lot? Bluetooth is sketchy beyond the same room,
| and I don't want to deploy a dozen hubs just to cover all
| my stuff...
| stavros wrote:
| Does it? This is a pretty big departure from Zigbee, why would
| they do this? It's very much an antifeature.
| joshstrange wrote:
| Please someone tell me if I'm wrong but from reading the wiki
| [0] everything in there screams "this has full access to the
| internet".
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread_(network_protocol)
| jcrawfordor wrote:
| Thread devices cannot access the internet without the
| cooperation of a gateway device. The topology is ultimately
| the same as Z-Wave with the devices communicating with a
| hub and the hub communicating with the internet. Thread is
| based on IEEE 802.15.4 just like Zigbee, but it uses IPv6
| with extensions as the network protocol, for both a more
| powerful and flexible network protocol and more
| implementation commonality with existing network stacks.
|
| That said, an explicit goal of Thread is to make the
| implementation of the gateway device easier and thus allow
| devices to communicate with a backing cloud service with
| less active participation of the hub... the hub is still
| "in the loop," but it doesn't need application-specific
| implementation for every device, it can just forward
| messages.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| I haven't tested, but I'd hope HomePods acting as
| gateways would be able to toggle internet access. Apple
| made a whole thing about HomeKit wifi routers (there's
| like 1 on the market) where you can easily firewall any
| wifi homekit devices to within your network.
|
| Enthusiast solution would be to use Home Assistant as
| your thread gateway to actually be in control of the
| connections:
|
| https://community.home-assistant.io/t/home-assistant-
| skyconn...
| azdle wrote:
| From the Matter Spec:
|
| > 2.3. Network Topology
|
| > [...]
|
| > This protocol may operate in the absence of globally
| routable IPv6 infrastructure. This requirement enables
| operation in a network disconnected or firewalled from the
| global Internet.
| stavros wrote:
| Hm, yeah, it does say "cloud access". I hope they mean just
| the hub has access, and the devices don't rely on it.
| dwheeler wrote:
| This is my favorite sentence:
|
| > There are 550 members of the CSA participating in the Matter
| standard development, and this summer 280 companies including
| Amazon, Signify, Google, SmartThings, and more met up to test
| their products working together in a series of test events.
|
| Creating a specification is good, but it doesn't matter if no one
| will implement it. I haven't been following the development of
| Matter, but as an outsider this is a _very_ good sign.
| WaitWaitWha wrote:
| Are the Bluetooth & WiFi required, or can it be just Matter?
|
| I am all Zigbee currently because Z-wave proprietary nature and
| some technical limitations.
|
| edit: welp "Matter aims to build a universal IPv6-based
| communication protocol for smart home devices." time to look for
| something to replace my zigbees. :/
| 1123581321 wrote:
| This related article from the same blog, and its comment section,
| helped me understand the current state of matter and the
| trajectory of the standard after 1.0. It seems it will take some
| time to support the full range of typical devices. It's also
| unclear what manufacturers will need to do to ease setup and
| interoperability within their own apps.
|
| https://staceyoniot.com/5-ways-matter-will-disappoint-users-...
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