[HN Gopher] DALL*E 2 vs. $10 Fiverr Commissions
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       DALL*E 2 vs. $10 Fiverr Commissions
        
       Author : sberens
       Score  : 142 points
       Date   : 2022-10-08 19:27 UTC (3 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (simonberens.me)
 (TXT) w3m dump (simonberens.me)
        
       | KaoruAoiShiho wrote:
       | The prompt he did is almost a captcha lol in terms of difficulty
       | for AI vs human. Try a painting... Do a video game concept art or
       | magic the gathering card. See how long it takes a human vs AI.
       | The results are way farther to the side of AI, such that he might
       | find it cost prohibitive to try to commission people to do it on
       | fiverr for a blog post.
        
       | mikelemmon wrote:
       | This post might as well be called "Check out what happens when
       | you use a wrench to put in a screw".
       | 
       | It's just the wrong tool for the job.
        
         | hey2022 wrote:
         | How is this not the right tool? Where on DALLE-2 website does
         | it say that it should not be used for artistic graphs?
         | 
         | Yes, we all have seen badly generated graphs from DALLE-2
         | before, so it feels like this is an obviously limitation of AI
         | image generation tools. But why should this be such an obvious
         | thing to absolutely everyone?
        
       | darepublic wrote:
       | I have used fiverr for web assets before and I really had to make
       | clear that what I wanted were SVG assets with transparent
       | background. Nevertheless it was routinely not understood and I
       | always had to ask for redo for the purpose of correcting this.
       | Also in the same manner as this author, I found that word prompts
       | for images were inferior to me simply doodling out what I wanted
       | and having the more artistic Adobe inclined person create a
       | polished version with small variations.
        
       | roca wrote:
       | Google staff aren't allowed to share Imagen results with you,
       | unfortunately.
        
         | coding123 wrote:
         | y not?
        
           | saagarjha wrote:
           | You are asked to not share the images when you use it.
        
             | anigbrowl wrote:
             | Heh, remember when you signed up and still bought into
             | _Google 's mission is to organize the world's information
             | and make it universally accessible and useful._
             | 
             | It's kinda sad that Google desperately wants the cool
             | points for having its own DL models but you can only see it
             | in the form of a store window display.
        
               | saagarjha wrote:
               | The are almost no companies that operate with a full
               | public view into their in-progress projects.
        
               | anigbrowl wrote:
               | I'm teasing about Google's 'so great you can't even see
               | it' effort to build hype for its own offering.
        
               | vkou wrote:
               | > Heh, remember when you signed up and still bought into
               | Google's mission is to organize the world's information
               | and make it universally accessible and useful.
               | 
               | They probably also remember signing an NDA, and maybe
               | taking some training about how _not all_ of the world 's
               | information should be made universally accessible and
               | useful to everyone. For instance, the contents of a
               | user's inbox.
        
         | mgraczyk wrote:
         | I just tried the prompts with Imagen and Parti. They are
         | similar to Dalle-2, with a bit more "variety" but none
         | reproducing the author's specific prompt the way the author
         | wants. For the prompt "a graph with 3 lines" both produce
         | graphs with 3 lines at least 1/6 of the time.
        
           | klyrs wrote:
           | Curious. I've played with quite a few of these models and one
           | of the very consistent "tells" is that they're extremely bad
           | at counting things. A friend of mine likes tarot and I tried
           | a few prompts... great results for the major arcana, but good
           | luck with "ten of cups"... without capability to edit & re-
           | prompt, the only viable strategy appears to be "ask it to
           | draw a bunch of cups repeatedly until you've collected all
           | the numbers."
           | 
           | Getting 3 of something 1/6 of the time doesn't really sound
           | like it groks the request.
        
             | mgraczyk wrote:
             | Sure, but it doesn't have to count to be useful. When I run
             | this locally on desktop GPU, I get 16 results in a few
             | seconds. I can visually select the 2-3 that match what I
             | want and pick one of them. I can try again ten times for
             | 20-30 options, and it still takes less time than Fiverr.
             | 
             | I would not use these models for graphs yet, but for cool
             | look tarot inspired "clipart" or background images, I think
             | they are already usable.
        
               | klyrs wrote:
               | The inability to count has some interesting knock-on
               | effects. My favorite being eyes and hands. Especially the
               | hands. The closer you look, the creepier it gets. That
               | thumb has fingers of its own?! Thus far, the greatest
               | utility I've seen has been on par with B-movies.
        
               | hey2022 wrote:
               | I am somewhat surprised at how bad these tools are at
               | generating hands and feet. Is it just a matter of not
               | having enough images to ingest?
               | 
               | The faces often look very good and they also have
               | symmetric complexity and individual elements that come in
               | a specific quantity (2 eyes, etc). Lower quality models
               | do generate fly-like multi eye faces, but newer ones are
               | so much more precise!
        
       | dvcrn wrote:
       | funny timing, just yesterday I finished a little app I was
       | hacking on and needed a somewhat decent looking logo that was
       | blocking the release. Instead of trying my luck in sketch and
       | doodling around, I went to DALL E, and with my first prompt was
       | able to generate better logos than I could have drawn. I was
       | immediately unblocked and super happy with the results
       | 
       | It's just amazing that non design people like me can just conjure
       | up decent looking, and _usable_ stuff with AI. I will definitely
       | use DALL E much more going forward for creative work
       | 
       | The logos are a bit noisy and need redrawing in a proper vector
       | tool but its a great starting point to try out different ideas
       | immediately
       | 
       | (The results:
       | https://twitter.com/dvcrn/status/1578710631838289922)
        
       | smoldesu wrote:
       | This is like asking a caricature artist to design a bridge.
       | DALL-E is not a graphing tool, so it's weird to see it treated as
       | one. A better version of this article might explore the
       | differences between DALL-E and Fiverr-designed characters, to
       | contrast how AI and humans approach visual storytelling.
        
         | hey2022 wrote:
         | That's not a fair analogy. If anything, you could say "this is
         | like asking a caricature artists to draw a bridge". Sure their
         | bridge might not end up being architecturally or structurally
         | correct, but it will mostly look like a bridge.
         | 
         | These image generation tools are being discussed as something
         | that could replace graphic designers (didn't OpenAI refuse to
         | open source DALLE-2 at a least partially due to this concern?).
         | So it is absolutely a reasonable idea to compare image
         | generation vs a human designer.
         | 
         | Saying that, the prompt the author chose to use was hard to
         | parse even to humans, I am not surprised the tools failed so
         | badly.
        
         | naillo wrote:
         | Almost feel like this was intentionally framed this way to
         | build more engagement (via comments where it's posted). It's
         | pretty well known dalle and stable diffusion are bad at text
         | and precise vector-style graphics. Do this on a professional
         | art piece and let's see how much $10 gets you.
        
           | acapybara wrote:
           | But how do we know if the Fiverr provider is using Stable
           | Diffusion?
        
           | sberens wrote:
           | Can you elaborate on how it looks like I framed it to build
           | more engagement?
        
             | TulliusCicero wrote:
             | I think it's just that it's such a strange comparison to
             | make, like making an article entitled, "Who's better at
             | doing donuts in the parking lot: helicopters or planes?"
             | 
             | The image generation models weren't trained on chart
             | images, everyone already knows they're gonna be bad at
             | that. Fiverr artists will obviously be better, though even
             | then, who the hell is paying people on fiverr to draw
             | generic charts?
             | 
             | If you wanted to compare them, it would make more sense to
             | compare them based on how they're actually used (especially
             | in the case of the AI models): to make art.
             | 
             | Though if your title was more specific, ala "DALL-E 2 vs
             | $10 Fiverr Commissions: Who's Better at Charts?" you'd
             | probably get somewhat fewer complaints. Having the title be
             | generic implies that you're gonna be looking at
             | common/primary use cases.
        
             | extrememacaroni wrote:
             | My man just look at the title, I clicked wondering if
             | dall-e made better anime characters than $10 fiverr
             | artists. But all I got was plots, who in their right mind
             | asks for plots on fiverr.
             | 
             | Am I being engaged right now, was your comment also to
             | generate engagement.hm.
        
       | make3 wrote:
       | wtf this is the worse possible use of DALL-E, it's not intended
       | for that at all
        
       | scalablenotions wrote:
       | AI Whisperer is totally going to be a job
        
       | mhb wrote:
       | To demonstrate the flaws in DALL-E don't you just have to get it
       | to draw anything that includes hands?
        
         | lossolo wrote:
         | It's a lot better now, just generated this using SD:
         | 
         | https://imgur.com/lVyUQFb
         | 
         | https://imgur.com/KJRPHi9
         | 
         | But it's still not perfect, a few more examples in a grid, as
         | you can see hands are still a problem:
         | 
         | https://imgur.com/ugpvE4a
        
           | mhb wrote:
           | Maybe it's better when hands are a central element, but I
           | don't think I've ever seen it draw some that aren't weird
           | when they are just a peripheral element of an image. But I
           | haven't used it that much and those may be better too.
        
       | thih9 wrote:
       | But this kind of drawing doesn't require any artistic skills;
       | it's a graph.
       | 
       | It seems fastest to just draw it yourself; even the pencil
       | drawing was already decent; and you can buy color pens for less
       | than $12.
        
         | hey2022 wrote:
         | Right, "I don't need a designer, I can draw a logo myself".
        
       | amelius wrote:
       | Ugh. This could have been so much better.
       | 
       | It's not at all surprising that an AI is bad at drawing graphs,
       | and it is also not surprising that even a non-artist human can
       | draw graphs pretty well.
        
         | nullc wrote:
         | It's not even that "AI is bad at drawing graphs"-- these models
         | were specifically trained on "aesthetic images".
        
         | IshKebab wrote:
         | Why is it not surprising? I don't see any fundamental reason
         | for it. I think these models will be able to produce sensible
         | graphs fairly soon.
         | 
         | You could equally say "it's not surprising that DALL-E can't
         | draw words"... except that Imagen seems to be pretty good at
         | it.
         | 
         | I think the real reason it's not surprising to you is that
         | you've already seen enough DALL-E results to understand its
         | limitations. It's not surprising that _DALL-E_ can 't draw
         | graphs.
        
           | smoldesu wrote:
           | We don't know if it's surprising, the author never tells us
           | their hypothesis. They don't state any particular reason for
           | the prompt they used, they don't explore the contents or
           | qualities of the prompt compared to other AI-generated art,
           | and they don't run multiple trials. Because of that, we can't
           | conclude anything useful from this article. There's no frame
           | of reference or scientific inquiry involved. If you find it
           | entertaining, that's fine. As a scientific comparison, this
           | verges on parody.
        
             | hey2022 wrote:
             | This is not a scientific experiment. The author compared
             | results of a specific prompt.
             | 
             | Why are so many people overthinking this?
        
               | girvo wrote:
               | > Why are so many people overthinking this?
               | 
               | From reading the comments here, they're overthinking it
               | because they seem to be taking this as a pre-planned
               | "attack" on AI art generation, rather than just an
               | interesting anecdote on the limitations of these tools.
               | 
               | As someone who has not played with said tools, it was an
               | outcome I found interesting to know: DALL-E et al. can't
               | do specific graphs or even specific logical things very
               | well a lot of the time. That's good to know, and I didn't
               | previously!
        
           | blagie wrote:
           | I do see a fundamental reason: The current crop of AI tools
           | are horrible at logic. It's a complete inversion of how we
           | think of computers.
           | 
           | If I want to convey happy emotions in the style of Rembrandt,
           | SD or DALL-E will do brilliantly. If I want an apple BELOW a
           | table, or worse, a geometric shape like a triangle, they'll
           | crash-and-burn.
           | 
           | GPT-3 is also really empathetic, but struggles simple logic
           | (and especially mathematics).
           | 
           | Graphs are like the horror case for these.
           | 
           | I can think of ways to make them better at this, but it's not
           | a weekend of hacking.
        
           | TulliusCicero wrote:
           | The most obvious reason would be that they're probably
           | largely trained on art-type images, not charts and graphs.
        
       | Uptrenda wrote:
       | What a ridiculous and poorly thought-out experiment. Visual art
       | can be incredibly detailed, complex, and imaginative. None of
       | these qualities are captured by trying to create... plots...
       | Literally anyone can do that using Excel or Google Sheets. You
       | can't call this 'art' and you certainly can't call this science.
       | No attempt has been made to conduct any kind of objective
       | analysis of the results beyond 'lol, not too shabby.' What a
       | half-assed post. I'd love to see someone like Gwern take on such
       | a task.
        
       | charcircuit wrote:
       | I think this is more of a showcase of these model's poor graphing
       | skills and not a comparison between these models and fiver
       | artists.
        
       | mgraczyk wrote:
       | One missing dimension for this comparison is how long it takes to
       | get results.
       | 
       | I've been using Imagen/Parti/Stable Diffusion already as a
       | replacement for "clip art" because it takes ~15 seconds to get
       | results and they are free. Fiverr takes at least 100 times that
       | long and costs $10.
       | 
       | For tasks where the exact content isn't important and you can't
       | invest more than a few seconds or wait a more than a few seconds
       | for results, generative models are already a great solution.
        
         | OJFord wrote:
         | Wait, 'Fiver[r]' costs $10? I assumed it was.. a fiver. Did it
         | start off making sense and inflate?
        
           | barbecue_sauce wrote:
           | I believe the creator sets their own rates on fiverr.
        
         | jvanderbot wrote:
         | Some can be had free, but I quickly run up against usage limits
         | and end up paying for it.
        
           | astrange wrote:
           | You can't use Imagen/Parti unless you work at Google, so it
           | sounds like he's getting paid for it.
        
           | modeless wrote:
           | There are no usage limits if you happen to have a gaming PC.
        
             | lostmsu wrote:
             | It also takes less than 10 minutes on PC.
        
         | hey2022 wrote:
         | Would love to see a similar comparison of fiverr vs AI but for
         | clip art!
        
       | dchuk wrote:
       | Ignoring the obvious misapplication of AI art generators: What an
       | absolutely baffling graph idea. That thing makes no sense
       | whatsoever
        
       | ThalesX wrote:
       | I spent maybe over $100 on DALL-E trying to recreate a math
       | t-shirt I used to have that I liked. Very much unsuccesful.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | panzi wrote:
       | AIs (at least currently) have problems counting. So anything
       | containing a number ("3 lines") will be difficult for them.
       | 
       | (My bias: I'm generally for _art_ to be created by artists. I
       | find AI generated images to be a fun _game_ , though. Exploring
       | the minds of those AIs, in a way.)
        
       | fareesh wrote:
       | Drawing graphs is probably one of the worst comparisons one can
       | do in terms of evaluating these models. They seem to be trained
       | to generate either photorealistic or stylized images.
        
         | sberens wrote:
         | I had personally never seen this side of the models, so I
         | wanted to share this finding.
         | 
         | I agree that they were trained more on artistic images, but I
         | was still surprised with how bad they generalized to a more
         | theoretical(?) context.
        
           | mgraczyk wrote:
           | I think the path forward for something like this is models
           | that learn to execute python code and incorporate the results
           | into their outputs. There are already projects that can
           | generate correct matplotlib calls for prompts like yours, but
           | I don't think we are to the point where those python outputs
           | can be automatically combined with a diffusion model for
           | style or whatever.
        
           | post-it wrote:
           | It's not about it being theoretical, it's moreso that the
           | language model is still far more simplistic than our own, and
           | struggles with anything but the most basic relations between
           | nouns. The "horse riding an astronaut" post is a good example
           | of this.[0]
           | 
           | [0] https://garymarcus.substack.com/p/horse-rides-astronaut
        
             | ytdytvhxgydvhh wrote:
             | See also "Shirt without stripes"
             | https://github.com/elsamuko/Shirt-without-Stripes
        
             | throwaman123 wrote:
             | It's funny to see this comment on HN, because it gets
             | refuted so many times by now you should be able to punch
             | into google and find it.
             | 
             | https://twitter.com/Plinz/status/1529013919682994176
        
               | post-it wrote:
               | I just asked Stable Diffusion to generate 10 images of
               | "horse riding an astronaut" and 10/10 were of an
               | astronaut riding a horse.
        
           | noduerme wrote:
           | One thing they're not very good at is deducing spatial
           | relationships. Concepts like "above", "inside" and "behind",
           | or "after". I'd say the prompts you gave make sense to a
           | human who is thinking of a visual progression from left to
           | right.
           | 
           | I bet you could write a few copilot prompts to generate code
           | which would draw a graph like this, though.
        
       | thorum wrote:
       | Text to graph is a great idea, but you don't want an image
       | generation AI like DALL-E. You want a natural language-to-code
       | model like GPT-3/Codex that is able to accurately translate your
       | requirements into code that programatically generates the image
       | using a good graph library.
       | 
       | Wouldn't be surprised if this is already possible with today's
       | tech, and just waiting to be built.
       | 
       | edit: just tried OP's prompt with Codex and Colab and generated
       | this image: https://i.imgur.com/OyxJCbz.png
       | 
       | Not quite accurate, but shows the potential for a better language
       | model or some prompt engineering to encourage fidelity to the
       | prompt
        
       | userbinator wrote:
       | The labels in the charts are strangely reminiscent of Madoka
       | Runes: https://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Runes_chart_expanded.gif
        
       | NoToP wrote:
       | This is not surprising for several reasons. One of which is Dalle
       | simply can't count. Asking it for 3 of anything will give
       | questionable results. Dalle also doesn't understand relations
       | between objects. It will fail on anything of the form A on top of
       | B. Indeed usually the order of words is irrelevant to the output.
       | Lastly, features of certain length scales (such as lines below
       | some thinness) are always garbled. Try generating the standard
       | face cards in a deck of playing cards to see what I mean.
        
       | andai wrote:
       | Now I am somewhat sleep deprived but I found the description of
       | the graph incomprehensible. "Starts near the bottom and goes up"
       | I interpreted as, it is a vertical line, and that its direction
       | would be expressed in the graph as a vector or something. (The
       | horizontal position of this vertical line appeared to be
       | unspecified, which puzzled me.)
       | 
       | In fact, my first urge was to ask you to just draw the dang thing
       | already, so I am very glad you included the sketch later!
       | 
       | This might say more about me than your prompt, though, but I
       | thought I'd share the data point.
       | 
       | Perhaps I would have been more successful if I read the
       | instructions with pencil in hand, sketching it out as I went
       | along instead of trying to fit the whole instructions in my head
       | first and then visualize it.
        
         | hey2022 wrote:
         | In my experiments with these tools I came to a conclusion that
         | they are not very good at understanding very detailed clear
         | directions. Which is fine!
         | 
         | I have a lot of fun treating AI as an absurdist philosophical
         | visualizer. Feeding it very abstract prompts and getting back
         | bizarre results that somehow make sense!
        
       | baxtr wrote:
       | Cool article! I think on a more general note it underlines what I
       | have been thinking for some time now: most people, also on HN,
       | get this generative art stuff totally wrong.
       | 
       | Yes, this will be the end for _some_ artists but not for others.
       | DALLE2 et al. are merely new tools for new generation of artists.
       | And, we are still figuring out how to use these tools
       | effectively.
       | 
       | In other words: The "AI" is a tool that we humans will use to get
       | things done faster/better etc. Nothing less, but also not much
       | more.
        
         | lovehashbrowns wrote:
         | The more worrisome aspect for me isn't that it's already going
         | to replace some artists.
         | 
         | I always thought in my head that this level of creativity would
         | remain our domain for centuries. Even as of like two or three
         | years ago I thought that.
         | 
         | It's insane to me that today some artists feel they're going to
         | be replaced soon. The idea of centuries is completely shattered
         | for me and now I don't know if we're a year or 50 years away
         | from AI replacing humans entirely in the creative domain. I
         | spent the other day completely in an existential crisis, tbh.
        
           | astrange wrote:
           | The only reason an artist would think they're being replaced
           | is someone told them they would. So the solution is to not
           | tell them that, as it's not true.
           | 
           | (The main instigator on Twitter is a guy who draws "realistic
           | Pokemon" and hates that an AI may have stolen the art he
           | already stole from The Pokemon Company.)
        
           | moonchrome wrote:
           | >I always thought in my head that this level of creativity
           | would remain our domain for centuries.
           | 
           | From what I've seen these networks are rehashing learning set
           | images into something matching some criteria to produce
           | visually pleasing results. Not to belittle the results - it's
           | impressive - but the stuff I'm not seeing here is
           | understanding of generated material - nonsensical z-order,
           | scale/proportions, configuration.
           | 
           | Fantasy images are an easy target because it's all about
           | visually pleasing nonsense.
        
           | girvo wrote:
           | From what I've seen, these tools aren't making _new_ styles
           | (yet? I guess they will eventually, now _that_ would be
           | existentially fascinating /horrifying) -- so my worry with
           | them is that they'll basically lock us in to what we have
           | _today_.
           | 
           | But then that's sort of a self-limiting factor: it means
           | theres still space for human creativity in creating _new_
           | things, new styles (as not every style exists yet!) -- at
           | least until said new style gets loaded into the model, I
           | suppose?
           | 
           | Fascinating stuff, really.
        
         | svnpenn wrote:
         | > Yes, this will be the end for some artists
         | 
         | This isn't art. It's a graph meant to represent data.
        
         | milsorgen wrote:
         | I think people overlook the fact that there's more to a photo
         | than shutter speed, more to a comic than the drawing... There's
         | message, composition, design, focused iteration, etc, etc. I
         | really enjoy using DALLE for simulating photographs as it
         | forces me to think outside of just the viewfinder.
        
         | mysterydip wrote:
         | To your point, I read in a board game group the other day of an
         | artist using AI generation for a first pass with new clients to
         | save themselves time. "Is this close to what you want?" then
         | does the actual art with alterations by hand. If the client
         | says no or flakes out, a lot less effort was lost than before.
        
         | TulliusCicero wrote:
         | While this is true to a certain extent, you're probably
         | underselling it a bit. A lot of "evocative" art (e.g. art on
         | Magic The Gathering cards) can now be done by complete non-
         | artists playing around with prompts for a little while, in less
         | time than it would take a professional artist to make the art
         | manually.
         | 
         | Now, if you're actually Wizards of the Coast, you probably
         | wanna spend the money with real artists anyway, but for any
         | smaller teams, I can see the appeal of just using AI for that
         | kind of use case now.
        
       | Thorentis wrote:
       | I was hoping for a chance to actuslly compare things like
       | artistic license, stylistic choices, etc. But instead the author
       | chose an absolutely terrible prompt. AI image generation is not
       | intended to generate graphs, and I'm surprised it was even able
       | to do anything passable given how few it was probably trained on
       | (if anything I'm more impressed with the AI than I was expecting
       | to be).
       | 
       | Please do this again with a better prompt.
        
         | darepublic wrote:
         | Stop prompt blaming this guy. It's a legit experiment in my
         | opinion
        
           | bowsamic wrote:
           | Please explain why you think that, because I can't possibly
           | imagine what your justification is
        
             | ThalesX wrote:
             | Not GP but I did the same thing with trying to design a
             | t-shirt... how is this not relevant? We're trying to asses
             | various tools to get our jobs done, not trying to create a
             | peer reviewed scientific paper.
        
           | duskwuff wrote:
           | And it's a legit criticism. There are three major issues I
           | see here:
           | 
           | 1) The prompt uses fairly complex grammar which is
           | incompatible with a token-based parser. In particular,
           | symbolic references like "The third [...] starts below the
           | second, and generally follows the second" are going to be
           | lost on it.
           | 
           | 2) The prompt includes details which a generative network is
           | spectacularly unlikely to be able to handle, like asking for
           | text labels with words like "prosecution" which are unlikely
           | to be present in its training material. (Generally speaking,
           | image generation models can only output short words which
           | they've seen many times, like "STOP" or "PIZZA", and even
           | those can be iffy.)
           | 
           | 3) Speaking of training material, most of the training
           | material given to image generation models consists of
           | photographs and artwork. Technical diagrams are much less
           | common, and when they do encounter those images, they're
           | unlikely to be paired with the sorts of detailed descriptions
           | that would be required to produce them on demand.
        
             | kaetemi wrote:
             | I've gotten a complete 11 word sentence generated in an
             | image in Midjourney so far. It seems somewhat better at
             | text than the other models somehow.
        
           | smoldesu wrote:
           | An experiment is only a single part of the scientific method,
           | and one can easily neglect the rest of the steps. This
           | article doesn't start with inquiry or a hypothesis from the
           | author. We just get data and "I told you so" at the bottom,
           | which doesn't illustrate anything.
           | 
           | It's funny that what we _don 't_ see is a shorter prompt. If
           | you ran this experiment with just "A graph with 3 slightly
           | wavy lines", maybe the difference between AI and human
           | results would be closer. Maybe that's the basis for a
           | legitimate research project, but it's frustrating that the
           | author takes the ball to the 80-yard-line and just gives up.
        
             | sberens wrote:
             | Hmm did you read to the end of the post? Because I included
             | a section showing the results on "a graph with 3 lines."
        
               | smoldesu wrote:
               | You're right, I shouldn't have bailed after the first few
               | paragraphs. Sorry about that :p
        
       | binarysolo wrote:
       | This post is (intentional?) rage bait for nerds - as everyone
       | else says this is the wrong comparison.
        
         | sberens wrote:
         | I certainly didn't intend this as rage bait, but I can see how
         | some people would have expected comparisons for typical dalle
         | prompts.
         | 
         | I had never seen someone try to generate graphs with dalle so I
         | thought it was worth sharing.
        
       | mattnewton wrote:
       | Complicated generative models are the wrong tool for the job
       | here.. And arguable Fiverr commissions are too, these graph
       | prompts look like they would take about the same amount of time
       | it took to write the prompt to do in a vector art program once
       | you got some beginner skills in one. To me this is almost like
       | asking it to graph functions and comparing it to excel's graphing
       | tools.
        
       | madrox wrote:
       | I'm pretty sure the author spent more time writing and tweaking
       | their prompt than it would've taken them to simply draw the graph
       | they wanted. This isn't merely a matter of illustrating prompt
       | engineering in humans vs machines.
       | 
       | I get the point the author is trying to make, but I really wish
       | the example felt less contrived.
        
         | sberens wrote:
         | The actual timeline is reversed; I started with the sketch,
         | submitted it to fiverr, realized I wanted to make a comparison
         | to dalle, and only then I tried to come up with a prompt that
         | could encapsulate the whole image.
         | 
         | I can see how it felt contrived, but I hoped to make an apples-
         | to-apples comparison on a real use case. Then to reduce the
         | complexity I tried it on a much simpler prompt.
        
       | chuckwalla55 wrote:
       | how long before 90% of the work on fiverr is AI generated?
        
         | pmayrgundter wrote:
         | You got it.
        
       | axg11 wrote:
       | This is a great idea executed very poorly. I would love to see a
       | larger sample size of AI vs Fiverr with a wider range of prompts.
       | Graphs are difficult for current models and that was already well
       | understood.
        
       | mikotodomo wrote:
       | Those tools are for generating images and art, not precise
       | schematics. The post is criticizing them for failing at something
       | they aren't meant to do.
        
       | arcastroe wrote:
       | Ha. This is is great. One part that caught my eye was in regards
       | to the first Fiverr drawing. The author says:
       | 
       | > However, it seems they didn't catch the part where I said the
       | black line should go between the first and third lines.
       | 
       | To me it seems the Fiverr person did attempt this part, but
       | misinterpreted it. The black line is behind the blue line, but in
       | front of the green and red lines. Does that count as "between" on
       | the z-axis?
        
         | hey2022 wrote:
         | I found this comparison interesting! DALLE-2 was being
         | discussed as a potential end of the graphic design industry. So
         | seeing how bad it is at interpreting and visualizing this
         | particular use case was great.
         | 
         | The prompt used by the author was hard to parse - I had to re-
         | read it several times. Not surprised both some humans and AI
         | failed.
        
         | bscphil wrote:
         | I noticed this too! I think their result is a completely valid
         | interpretation of the original prompt.
        
       | montebicyclelo wrote:
       | These text-to-graph problems seem like a good candidate for
       | someone to create a training-dataset/benchmark of.
       | 
       | Bear in mind that the training data for these models has been
       | mostly images and their alt text, scraped off the web. There is a
       | good chance that there's nothing remotely like the examples given
       | here in the training data. (People don't caption their graphs
       | like that.) These models are undoubtably good at doing what they
       | have been trained to do - but I think no-one disagrees that
       | there's plenty of room for improvement.
       | 
       | (And bear in mind that these text2image models only released this
       | year, and that this tech in general has only been invented in the
       | last couple of years, so it's very early days...)
        
       | wnkrshm wrote:
       | This is the niveau of comparing the performance of a fast-food
       | employee taking a weird order to trying to enter it on a touch-
       | screen panel.
        
       | vanadium1st wrote:
       | I am a guy who does those kinds of Fiverr commissions. Not the
       | $10 ones, but plenty of $50-100 dollars ones. I have a lot of
       | thoughts and concerns about the impact of Dalle-2 on visual arts
       | as a whole, but I see no threat at all to my Fiverr business.
       | 
       | 90% of my clients couldn't do anything without a human in chat
       | that walks them through all the steps. There's no possible
       | interface simple enough for them to do everything without my
       | help. They can't figure out which files they want and what to do
       | with them once they got it. If there's any possible customisation
       | option - they will use it to make the pre-made template uglier,
       | and then will ask me if I could do something to make it look good
       | again. That's what they are paying me for.
        
         | lifeisstillgood wrote:
         | Forgive the dumb question but what kind of output do you make?
         | 
         | Do people ask for graphs on fiverr like the article? (I can
         | only imagine sort of "must have a powerpoint ready for 9am in
         | Tokyo sort of thing. I know that's a real industry even if that
         | industry always seemed to me like everyone gathering round a
         | fake painting with everyone knowing it's a fake)
         | 
         | Anyway - always interested.
        
         | gnicholas wrote:
         | Could a webform be used to ask the questions that you ask
         | (based on a very large decision tree, of course), and then
         | either (1) format the results in a way that AI can generate an
         | appropriate image, or (2) have a human look at the results and
         | in 4 minutes use AI to generate an appropriate image?
         | 
         | Do you think that people in your line of work, or adjacent
         | lines of work, will use AI to offload brainstorming or to get
         | inspiration?
         | 
         | My guess (as a complete outsider) is that the skill of drawing
         | will remain important, but that there will emerge a new skill:
         | an AI translator, who serves as a midwife for the creation of
         | AI art.
        
           | NoToP wrote:
           | Midwaif
        
           | shredprez wrote:
           | Bingo. Artists have a new creative tool with new constraints,
           | tricks, and prerequisite skills. I think the idea it'll
           | destroy other forms of art (and art-derived commerce) is an
           | unlikely one since it can be used to fuel many of the
           | creative arts that currently exist, but I suppose we'll find
           | out soon enough.
        
         | Bakary wrote:
         | AI is moving so fast that we might be a couple of years prior
         | to having a program capable of conversing with a dumb and
         | indecisive person like this and outputting what they want
        
       | yieldcrv wrote:
       | The only substantive comment is that this is the nerdiest most
       | useless comparison far divorced from any utility in this trending
       | topic
       | 
       | Let's show all the ways that these AI obliterate $10 Fiverr non-
       | AI commissions, thats what people want to see
        
       | ahmedbaracat wrote:
       | Thanks for sharing. Interestingly, I wrote a blog post about a
       | similar topic: What will happen if ML builders and domain experts
       | had co-ownership of the data and the model.* I am planning to
       | generate the first training seed images by using Fiverr and
       | giving the logo designers ownership rights of the
       | data/model/profits.
       | 
       | https://blog.barac.at/a-business-experiment-in-data-dignity
       | 
       | * vs the current trend of training diffusion models on 400M
       | images from the Internet (many of them being garbage) with mixed
       | licenses and letting the user take responsibility of the
       | generated images licensing issues.
        
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