[HN Gopher] Protect your privacy and your phone number with Fire... ___________________________________________________________________ Protect your privacy and your phone number with Firefox Relay Author : mozillamaxx Score : 110 points Date : 2022-10-11 16:05 UTC (6 hours ago) (HTM) web link (blog.mozilla.org) (TXT) w3m dump (blog.mozilla.org) | jacooper wrote: | Call me when you remove Ganalytics from such "privacy focused | service" (1) | | Will stick with Simplelogin.io, which is included for free with | Proton Unlimited. | | 1: https://github.com/mozilla/fx-private-relay/issues/1639 | [deleted] | petarb wrote: | I can't wait for Apple to add this to iCloud | darkarmani wrote: | Isn't this Google Voice which was once Grand Central (12 years | ago)? | | Forward your phone number to a different number through gvoice. | For email, add a '+' symbol to your email address and filter them | out if they get abusive. | SadTrombone wrote: | > For email, add a '+' symbol to your email address and filter | them out if they get abusive. | | It's still trivial to parse your real email address from this. | With Relay your real email address is completely obfuscated. | grammers wrote: | This looks nice. I'm currently using Tutanota and love it. Seems | like it would be possible to connect this with Firefox Relay, | digging into it a bit more! | LeoPanthera wrote: | Maybe this is a good place to ask: I'm a British expat living in | the USA, and for a while now I've wanted a service which provides | a British phone number, and forwards calls and texts to my US | number, while also allowing me to send texts and make calls | "from" the UK number if I want to. | | It looks like I might be able to do this with Twilio, but I'm not | a developer, and quickly got frustrated trying to build what I | wanted. | | Is there a service that will do this for me at a reasonable | price? | MatthewMcDonald wrote: | Check out MySudo. It doesn't _forward_ the calls and texts, but | you can have multiple numbers that you can call/text with from | the app. | faultable wrote: | only for certain regions, as always. | imagetic wrote: | I like what Mozilla has been doing with their services, but they | have built a very confusing business model of many micro services | that I just don't see a ton of people signing up for as | independent subscriptions. | | Why not bundle them all as one membership? Pocket, Mozilla VPN, | Relay, Monitor, and whatever services they can scrape up premium | options and features for to give them value? | groovecoder wrote: | (Mozilla Privacy & Security ENGR) Stay tuned ... :) | politelemon wrote: | Since you're here looking, please could the relay custom | domain feature support custom domains? At the moment it | actually generates subdomains. | groovecoder wrote: | Yeah, "Bring your own domain" is a super cool feature idea. | We could even re-use Acme HTTP-01 or DNS-01 challenges to | verify the domain. | moxieta wrote: | i would like this too. i think you can do it with apple | email relay. | | currently i have example.com as my email, which i use with | mailbox.org, would it be possible to keep using it with | mailbox.org and then for mozilla to allow it to be used for | email relays? e.g. | | name@example.com goes to mailbox.org | | 3859dhtog@example.com goes to firefox relay | | (not currently ofc, but a future thing) | groovecoder wrote: | I assume this means you have an MX record at example.com | pointing to your/mailbox.org SMTP server? AIUI, a sending | MTA will look up the MX record for example.com by | preference order and will deliver emails to the first | server that accepts the connection. | | So it may depend if you can configure your mailbox.org | account/server to reject connections from servers trying | to send mail to unknown addresses? Then the sending MTA | server might "fail over" to the Relay server instead? | ratata wrote: | Great to hear! One suggestion; I think it would be great to | have an integration with smartphones Contact apps. This way a | user can leverage autocomplete and do not disturb rules on | mobile. | groovecoder wrote: | Oh interesting. Do you mind filing an issue for what you | have in mind here? | | https://github.com/mozilla/fx-private-relay/issues/new | | FWIW, when you get a Relay number, we text you a contact | card for it, so you can save it into your phone's contacts | app. | bretbernhoft wrote: | This makes a lot of sense. But maybe it's the direction that | Mozilla is already headed in? | madamelic wrote: | If y'all are interested in something like this, let me know. I | wrote a service exactly like this [0] and it sort of flopped | because the marketing plan was bad and I struggled to crack my | (poorly chosen) target market of 'privacyfreaks'. | | If you want to re-co-found with me on marketing / sales, hit me | up: maddie+hn[at]qnzl.co. I tried some pivots, sucked at | marketing it, I occasionally get asked about where it went. | | --- | | If anyone wants to run their own instance using Twilio, I open- | sourced the basic structure of my previous service [1] so it | should be fairly plug-and-play to do this cheaper ($1 per number | + small usage fee) and for more numbers. | | My caveat about this is some services will silently ignore you if | you try to use a virtual number. It's more useful for IRL where | you don't want to throw your real number around much. | | [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18311146 | | [1]: https://github.com/qnzl/twilio-basic-server | onetimeusename wrote: | ya that's useful. I do like this service. I have noticed more | and more that people are asking for phone numbers for app | registration and even in person I have seen this. A phone | number to me is private and personal. | | The firefox service is priced well but 75 texts and 50 minutes | of voice is fairly limited. The burner phone services that | exist are too sketchy and too expensive for my taste. | | I don't like marketing or sales but if you could market | yourself as a privacy focused, Free/Libre solution that wasn't | a sketchy fly by night operation and offered more than a closed | source phone app I would subscribe. | | Twilio itself seems to be oriented towards businesses and not | individuals which is why I did not sign up with them. | vmoore wrote: | > this feature is available in the U.S. and Canada | | Bummer. Before reading this, I was so excited, since robocalls | and sketchy SMS messages with malware payloads have plagued my | phone for years, and now it's not available to me (I'm in the | EU). | moxieta wrote: | is this usa and canada only? | | i can't see any option when i log on from the uk. | Vinnl wrote: | Unfortunately, at this time, yes: | | > Currently, this feature is available in the U.S. and Canada. | As we roll out this feature, we will explore how we can expand | this offering to outbound calls and texts, as well as to other | regions. | | (Edited to add:) And I feel your pain - I'm a Relay engineer in | the Netherlands, and I can't even use this myself... But | unfortunately, it's not easy to offer this elsewhere at a | reasonable price, so we're still figuring that out. | arealaccount wrote: | How is this different from google voice which is free? | lijogdfljk wrote: | Even if it was identical i'd be interested simply because it | isn't Google. I used to have Google Voice. | Hrundi wrote: | Google Voice is US & Canada only, I believe. | cmcconomy wrote: | This service seems interesting for people who are establishing | net new phone numbers, but for those of us who have existing | numbers they've been using, the barn door is already open. This | wouldn't get us off existing lists. | srhngpr wrote: | I think TextNow offers a better solution and I've been using it | to do this for quite some time and it doesn't require any kind of | forwarding. I can send/receive calls and messages directly from | within its app and recycle numbers at any time - all for free (ad | supported). Calls are of great quality too and it even includes | voicemail. If I really like a number and want to lock it (to also | receive 2FA codes), it's a yearly $7 fee. Works with area codes | in US and Canada. | | I think there are other options like Fongo and probably a dozen | other similar services that already have been doing this for some | time. Not really seeing the value proposition of going with the | Mozilla option here. Am I missing something? | hguant wrote: | I'd be more for this if Mozilla didn't have a habit of sneaking | in actively privacy hostile "updates" and enabling them by | default. | rodolphoarruda wrote: | We need this service available in Brazil like... yesterday. | Robocalls are reaching unbearable levels. | kroltan wrote: | Yes, recently I was on a spree, receiving roughly 40 calls a | day, I had to set my phone to not accept calls outside | contacts, but then what is even the point of having a phone | number at all. | dividuum wrote: | Wouldn't that just increase the number of calls, now that you | can receive them on multiple numbers? | madamelic wrote: | In my experience: yes. | | The only way to really prevent it is to allowlist specific | numbers you know will call the number and send "Number | disconnected" signals for the rest. Eventually, the number | gets quieter until it can be reached again. | | The ideal setup would be to have a private number that you | never give out that denies anyone not on your allow then use | throwaway numbers you can turn on and off as you need them. | | I used to have it where I would give numbers out then only | have them 'active' when I was expecting a call. | | My original hypothesis was that the numbers were harvested, | my new one (and likely correct) is that numbers are randomly | dialed. | rodolphoarruda wrote: | > The only way to really prevent it is to allowlist | specific numbers you know will call the number and send | "Number disconnected" signals for the rest. | | That's my tactics via an app. | rsync wrote: | This is my 2FA Mule. There are others like it, but this one is | mine: | | https://kozubik.com/items/2famule/ | janalsncm wrote: | It would be great if someone could package several virtual | services into one app. Virtual cc number, virtual email address, | virtual phone number all with one click. That way I can sign up | for some in-store membership with working info, get the discount, | and never worry about my info being compromised. | auslegung wrote: | I use Fastmail for what they call Masked Email, and Privacy.com | for unique debit cards for shopping online. They both integrate | with 1Password. So when I sign up for a new account, 1Password | generates a Masked Email, a random password, and a unique debit | card, and saves it all, and I LOVE IT! | | Fastmail referral url: https://ref.fm/u26310488 | | Privacy.com referral url: https://privacy.com/join/JCPFN | tailspin2019 wrote: | This is cool. I've recently been thinking about getting a | "burner" number for sharing outside my immediate circle. | | Same for email - the idea would be to have a phone/email for | public consumption and then a separate address and number for my | inner circle of family/friends. | nicholasjarnold wrote: | Same. Though for email there are good services like Fastmail | (and likely many others) which already offer this and other | benefits for a nominal subscription fee. | | I haven't implemented this idea yet, but what stops us from | just buying Twilio credits, getting a number through them and | then writing a bit of glue code to their API to pull down SMS | messages (for things like 2-factor codes, etc) and route them | wherever we find personally convenient? Maybe Twilio is also | selling our customer data paired with these numbers to data | brokers, though, IDK. It's just a fleeting idea I've had. | tailspin2019 wrote: | > what stops us from just buying Twilio credits, getting a | number through them | | I was considering exactly this, or potentially getting a | second mobile number via eSIM on my phone (which feels a bit | more "permanent" but that might be delusion...) | madamelic wrote: | Here you go: https://github.com/qnzl/twilio-basic-server | | Go wild. Gets you like 90% of the way there. | jacooper wrote: | License please! | nicholasjarnold wrote: | Thank you! I'm going to check this out. A question about a | comment you made elsewhere herein: | | > My caveat about this is some services will silently | ignore you if you try to use a virtual number. It's more | useful for IRL where you don't want to throw your real | number around much. | | How, specifically, do other services detect this? Is it | like with IP address space where it's possible to determine | things like "this C block belongs to Entity X, Inc"? Are | you aware of mechanisms to avoid this detection/blocking | that don't require using a "real" number. | madamelic wrote: | > How, specifically, do other services detect this? | | I don't actually know specifically. I assume there are | two different ways: | | - The service is using Verify / Authy, which is owned by | Twilio so likely Twilio themselves discourage it | | - Looking up the number either through Twilio or some | sort of central subscriber database. All virtual numbers | are described as virtual numbers. | | > Are you aware of mechanisms to avoid this | detection/blocking that don't require using a "real" | number. | | Definitely gets into ethically gray areas since that | would be super useful to nefarious people. I don't | actually know for sure. I know from the recent Blizzard | mobile 2FA controversy that this issue expands to also | prepaid phone numbers. | | So I don't know of a definitive way to get around it | beyond using a postpaid number. | | Somewhat related, near the end of my above mentioned | service, I had pivoted into trying to launch a "21st | century phone service" complete with SIM cards provided | by Twilio. | | The issue? They were still considered virtual numbers. At | the time, in Twilio's defense, I was somewhat misusing | their service because their SIMs were intended for IoT | purposes not actual cellphone usage. That's all to say, | it's likely provider / subscriber level vs something you | can individually spoof. | blep_ wrote: | Twilio, at least, has an API specifically for looking up | the carrier of a phone number. (You can't do it based on | number ranges, because portability.) | srhngpr wrote: | Simple and free solutions exist for this exact purpose: | TextNow, Fongo, etc. See: | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33169096 | returnInfinity wrote: | If you put your real phone number in your Resume and share it | with a recruiter, consider your phone number public. | | Also LinkedIn will give away your contact details. | | Your Bank or any service important to you may get hacked and | your phone number leaked. | lucb1e wrote: | I feel like we have very different expectations of what | recruiters can and will do with personal information. I'm | from within the EU, you? | | Not that they don't share your email to other persons working | for the same company (I've had some name I never heard of | from RecruitCorp email me seven years after I last talked to | someone from RecruitCorp), or I could imagine they keep their | contacts when moving into / out of self-employment, but | that's a far cry from public. | vineyardmike wrote: | Not worth it. I have a Google Voice number (free, easy, good | UX). Now it's a constant juggle of "which number did I give". | Especially since you presumably have already given away your | current number. Even if you go all-in on burner number, there's | a question of longevity and risk. Do you give it to government? | Do you give it to banks? Etc | tailspin2019 wrote: | Yeah, very good points. I hadn't thought of the "which number | did I give" complication. | kroltan wrote: | I do the same thing with e-mail addresses, and solve this | by storing it in my password manager. | | Phone numbers don't quite have the same dynamic, but just | having the ability of throwing a given problematic number | away would already solve so much. | jaclaz wrote: | I don't understand the idea behind it. | | Now: | | 1) You give your real number to someone. | | 2) Somehow your real number goes into a list used by robo- | callers. | | 3) A robo-call arrives on your real number, disturbing your | peace. | | After: | | 0) You give Mozilla 3.99 or 4.99 US$/month | | 1) You give your Mozilla number to someone. | | 2) Somehow your Mozilla number goes into a list used by robo- | callers. | | 3) A robo-call arrives on your Mozilla number, that promptly | relays it to your real number, disturbing your peace. | | You cannot change your Mozilla number, so it is basically an | "alias" number, where is the advantage? | | Stopping paying so that the number becomes invalid? | | But then you won't be reachable anymore by the people you gave | that number to. | balderdash wrote: | Totally agree, this should be a telephone version of a spam | folder. I have a legacy google voice plan that I use for this, | but would be happy to pay a couple bucks a month to Mozilla for | a comparable service. | lalopalota wrote: | If you get a spam call / text, you can block that number from | calling / texting you again. | | I can already do that on my phone, and it is kind of useless | due to caller-id spoofing that most robocallers use. | | Also, probably wont work for services that require a phone | number but don't accept VOIP numbers. | | I wish the article addressed these issues. | jaclaz wrote: | >If you get a spam call / text, you can block that number | from calling / texting you again. | | >I can already do that on my phone, and it is kind of useless | due to caller-id spoofing that most robocallers use. | | Yes, I cannot see in which way this "black-listing" on | Mozilla is different/better. | Zak wrote: | > _Also, probably wont work for services that require a phone | number but don 't accept VOIP numbers._ | | I'm running into an increasing number of these, and it's | annoying because I use Google Voice as my primary phone | number. Using VOIP is important for me because I travel | frequently between the US and EU. | | Aside from being inconvenient for me, I take blocking VOIP as | a red flag that the service might want to misuse my phone | number. | smileysteve wrote: | I effectively did this with Google Voice back when. | | I would give marketers my Google voice number, it had better | interface (and on cloud instead on device) contact management. | I could send non favorites to a voice identification prompt | (voiding all slow recordings or agents making multi calls that | have a pickup delay) and for the final small percentage voice | transcripts that I could determine if important. | | Or for craigslist, I could forward calls to a phone for a short | period of time, then turn off forwarding. | UncleEntity wrote: | I still use google voice like that, give it out when I | absolutely have to give a phone number (because they verify | by text or whatever) but have the app set to silent. | | Google does a really good job of filtering out the | telemarketing calls so the rare message is usually valid. | | Pretty much the only time I have to open the app is this one | stupid company ( _cough_ Walmart _cough_ ) which insists on | doing 2FA via text every single time I want to check the | balance on my prepaid debit card. | neogodless wrote: | From the article | | > If you find yourself receiving too many unwanted spam calls | or texts, you can easily turn it off for all phone numbers or | select the specific ones you want to block. | | So it sounds like if your aliased phone number has issues, you | can block those specific ones. In theory, you can do that now | from your phone, for individual numbers, but it isn't applied | if you switch devices. So it's a very moderate improvement. | | Additionally, your existing phone number is probably already | overwhelmingly accessible to robo-callers, i.e. the cat is | already out of the bag. | barbariangrunge wrote: | I think the idea is to give your real email and phone number to | real friends and family; then you use the relayed one with | online services who might sell or lose the data. Then you could | presumably ditch the related info after the spam gets to be too | much? Or maybe you just do it to be more anonymous? | | It's like the concept of a "burner phone" I think | barbazoo wrote: | That's what I thought too but then I read about what is | actually offered: | | > You only get one phone number mask at this time. Once you | choose your phone number mask, you cannot change it later. | | That makes it impossible to use as a "burner" number. | jaclaz wrote: | But - originally - you give a number (be it real or Mozilla | or "burner") in order to be contacted by someone (and then | _somehow_ it was leaked to the robocallers). | | The moment you change or abandon the number (be it Mozilla or | "burner") that someone won't be able to contact you anymore. | | But if you keep it, with the burner at least that someone | will still be able to call you at the end of the month (when | the the robocallers will have already eaten the 50 minutes | allowed by Mozilla). | mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: | But if you can use a unique number per service, you now | know which company is selling your PII and you could | address that either by switching to a competitor or, | depending on the legal specifics, sue/expose them. | jaclaz wrote: | From what I understand it is not "unlimited" numbers, | just one, as said an "alias". | mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: | That's a shame, it wasn't entirely clear from the article | but I assumed it must be multiple numbers since it didn't | seem to me like it would be all that useful otherwise. | ridgered4 wrote: | Unfortunately this only gives you a single unchangeable | mask number. | im3w1l wrote: | It would kind of make sense if you could "open" the relay | when you need to 2fa, and then you close it again after. | With this usepattern you would only need one alias, that | would be closed 99.9% of the time. | zikduruqe wrote: | textnow.com is free and what I have been using for years. | janalsncm wrote: | That was my thought. Unless I can create multiple numbers and | disable them at will, this is quite flawed. | | With a virtual cc number, I create a new number on demand for | each service I need, and disable it after I don't need it | anymore. | | With virtual email addresses, I create a virtual address and | delete it after I don't need it anymore. | | Unless there is a phone number analog, a single number is only | useful until that number is compromised. Which could be day 1. | nicholasjarnold wrote: | Maybe you use it as part of a multi-layered approach to | personal digital privacy. | | Without having hired a lawyer to dissect the TOS and Privacy | Policy for Mozilla's new service here, I'm going to assume for | the sake of argument that they will not sell the data to | brokers. If that is true, then it's one more way to try and | keep your true PII out of circulation. For instance, maybe you | pair this with a high quality VPN offering, browser plugins or | whole-network based stuff like pi-hole/etc along with also | using aliased credit card numbers through services like | Privacy.com or other similar offerings. Then when you "sign up | for an account" or "make online purchase" you could use name | like John Smith, private/aliased email, etc etc... This just | puts distance between your activity and your true identity. | | With all that setup you have at least _some_ chance of evading | a decent amount of the persistent and invasive tracking that is | beginning to be top of mind for many people. | madamelic wrote: | Service-unique email / username + service-unique credit card | is good enough for, I'd estimate, 95% of people. | | You are trying to avoid wholesale scoops of info and | automated credential stuffing. If your threat model is people | specifically seeking out and targeting you: godspeed. | ridgered4 wrote: | Yeah, I'm a little confused on the use case for this. I guess I | could put all of the annoying services that demand a phone | number for totally-only-security purposes-trust-us into a | "bucket" number. It doesn't sound like it is a feature but I'd | prefer that calls and texts to that number just be outright | ignored unless I've turned the number on temporarily for | verification. But since they have started rejecting VOIP | numbers for verification, and now even prepaid phone numbers | (!) for verification I feel like this probably won't work for | that either. | | I personally only use prepaid cards so a service that makes | them appear like post paid might be useful on its own though. | | The fact that you only get one number and you can't change is | seems to blunt some of the utility. Ideally you'd want a | separate number for each service and to have them all turned | off, to block identifying you as the same user of different | services. Not quite as easy to do with finite numbers as with | email address suffixes. | | I wonder if you could use this like 5sim or other shady text | verification services by just remaking a monthly account. I | suspect that is not the idea here and probably forbidden, | otherwise they'd let you change numbers. | Vinnl wrote: | (Relay engineer here.) | | This is definitely just the first step; we've got lots of ideas | for additional protections we could add, and are monitoring | usage and feedback [1] to inform our roadmap. | | What this first version gives you is a way to add a tier of | trust to your phone number: your Relay number for untrustworthy | partners, and your true phone number for important things. That | means that data leaks of untrustworthy services can no longer | be linked to the important ones through your phone number. | Additionally, if you receive a phishing call to your Relay | number, that's an extra red flag that it might not be who they | say it is. | | But again, there is more to come, so stay tuned. | | [1] See also | https://connect.mozilla.org/t5/discussions/firefox-relay-pho... | stuckonempty wrote: | What are the benefits of Firefox phone relay then versus a | free google voice number I use just for spam ("untrustworthy | partners")? | Vinnl wrote: | I'm not terribly familiar with Google Voice (it also isn't | available in my country...), but they look similar in terms | of functionality at this point in time. For me personally, | the primary reasons to go with Relay would be that I'm | already trying to move away from Google as much as possible | for privacy reasons, that I'm already using Relay for email | masking, and that Relay is explicitly focused on the | privacy use case and will keep evolving in that direction. | stuckonempty wrote: | I can relate to the privacy-focused goal of getting away | from google however Google Voice is free. Sadly I think | having a competing free Google product that accomplishes | most of the same things is going to hurt adoption of the | Firefox relay product (which is paid) | tjoff wrote: | > _Next, you will be prompted to verify your true phone number | where the calls and texts will be forwarded to via text message. | After verification, we will generate your phone number mask._ | | Doesn't feel necessary to me really. I've never ever been in the | need for an incoming call, just for sms. And I'd much rather have | them sent to an email rather than my actual phone too (and then I | wouldn't need to share my phone number with this service either). | That would be a real use-case for me. But paying a monthly | subscription for that twice a year sms isn't that great either. | | I currently have a pre-paid sim and an old phone for this | usecase. It kind of sucks and I don't have access to it when I'm | not home (sure, there are ways to sync this but haven't felt a | big enough need for it yet). | crackercrews wrote: | > Each month you will receive up to 50 minutes for incoming calls | and 75 text messages. All phone number masking plans will include | unlimited email masking. The cost is $3.99 a month for an annual | plan or $4.99 a month for a monthly plan. | | So you pay $4-5 per month and you're still limited? I was | expecting there would be some free amount and after that it's | paid. | | Will this SMS work for account verification? | kylehotchkiss wrote: | Google Voice numbers are reported as landlines, there seems to | be some way to verify that a number is actually mobile. Very | likely that Mozilla's report as landline. Banks (capital one) | have definitely balked at my google voice number. | | What these burner numbers are great for are rewards programs. I | sign up for every one I can with my GV number! | mdasen wrote: | When I look up my Google Voice number, it shows up as VoIP | (not quite landline) with the carrier being Grand Central - | SVR. It seems likely that Mozilla's service will similarly | show up as VoIP. Some places are filtering VoIP numbers from | their SMS verification schemes, but most places will let you | sign up for promotional texts from a VoIP number. | diebeforei485 wrote: | Where can you "look up" your number? | | There was something recently around a game which was able | to detect if a user's phone number was on a prepaid or | postpaid plan. I had no idea carriers share this | information with others. | crackercrews wrote: | What about account verification for Twitter/etc.? | sitzkrieg wrote: | google voice numbers are identified as the voip number they | are (bandwidth dot com etc) and virtually nothing takes them | for identification | crackercrews wrote: | I'd be very interested to know if they work for SMS-only | applications. I guess it's only $5 to try and find out. If | anyone has tried, please report back! | gruez wrote: | >Very likely that Mozilla's report as landline. | | I doubt it. It looks like they're using twilio under the | hood, and those are most definitely detected as VOIP numbers. | ronnocoep wrote: | Craigslist used to have a free service similar to this called | 'Craigs Number'. Worked well and was free. Come on Mozilla, you | can do better. | sneak wrote: | Spam calls are not the reason it is bad to give your number out; | it isn't related to calls at all. | | Your number is your permanent cross-app, cross-company tracking | identifier. It is a lookup key for your name, address, income | bracket, email, spam history, etc. | | This is why so many apps require it during signup. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-10-11 23:00 UTC)