[HN Gopher] Does cashless society discriminate against the poor ...
___________________________________________________________________
Does cashless society discriminate against the poor and elderly?
(2019)
Author : maxwell
Score : 74 points
Date : 2022-10-17 17:21 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (blogs.ischool.berkeley.edu)
(TXT) w3m dump (blogs.ischool.berkeley.edu)
| bern4444 wrote:
| There's a difference between cashless and technology/smartphone
| only.
|
| You can have a cashless society that still uses checks, debit
| cards, credit cards, money orders, cashiers checks, wire
| transfers etc. All these can be managed or used by visiting a
| local branch or with a phone call.
|
| Plenty of people still pay their rent with checks and I've never
| been at a sit down restaurant in the US where I could pay with
| Apple/Google Pay but I can of course use my CC/Debit Card.
|
| All of the methods listed above work without power as one
| commenter suggested would be an issue. Its really not...
|
| Overdraft fees are egregious but they're also something you can
| opt out of and is just another form of credit.
|
| All you need to participate to this degree is a bank account that
| offers a debit card which is accessible and possible to the vast
| majority of the population including the elderly - they're not
| hoarding all their cash under their mattress. In the US to open
| an account at any major bank is an ID and maybe an initial
| deposit whether that be a cash/check/incoming transfer etc.
|
| It has never been easier to go to a library/school/friend's place
| and sign up for a free bank account that will ship you a debit
| card that will also reimburse you for ATM withdrawal fees.
|
| The group that should really be the focus is the underbanked -
| often those less fortunate.
|
| Including seniors in this category of 'discrimination' feels odd
| - I know of some who have no problem paying their bills,
| shopping, living life etc without a smart phone or computer.
|
| Society can't be beholden to the past forever - progress is made
| and individuals have to choose to participate if they want to use
| new things that are accessible only through certain tools.
|
| This isn't any different from when we moved from the telegraph to
| the telephone - you had to go and buy a landline to participate.
| The same is true of getting a passport to fly/sail to different
| countries as countries also further add requirements for updated
| passports and IDs (a la Real ID requirements in the US).
| Spooky23 wrote:
| Yes. The assault on cash is pretty awful in general.
| holoduke wrote:
| I think there is a huge shadow economy with cash money only. If
| I look to some people running businesses. It's quite common to
| occasionally do something in cash without paying taxes on it.
| Used to buy things like gasoline for boats, car restoration,
| art and more. I think when this shadow economy is gone, some
| people will have a harder time living a luxury life. Maybe in
| the end it will be better to have this shadow world.
| ghaff wrote:
| I simultaneously rarely use cash and would hate to not be
| able to use cash.
| sneak wrote:
| Use it or lose it, one might point out.
|
| I stopped carrying cards.
| asdff wrote:
| Part of it is because visa and mastercard charge these big
| fees for their service that make it difficult for small
| businesses to cover costs and be competitive. A few
| restaurants by me that are legit brick and mortars (versus
| stands), have card service, still offer a cash discount of
| 4%. For stuff like food trucks or table setups on the
| sidewalks, I don't blame them for going all cash and flying
| under the radar from the IRS, considering how difficult it is
| to establish a small business in this county and maintain
| everything in order as far as the local/state/federal
| government are concerned. Its almost like the laws are
| designed to make it difficult unless you have a 'fixer' on
| your side telling you what forms to file and how to deal with
| things from the government, just based on people I know who
| run businesses here and have had to use fixers themselves to
| understand the byzantine tax process or other licensing
| issues.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| Another issue is places like ticketed venues making cash-free
| a term of sale. You can't buy anything with cash in places
| like Citi Field or Hershey Park.
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| It certainly discriminates against those without a bank account.
| ncpa-cpl wrote:
| Or those with bad credit. I have had two coworkers that
| couldn't deposit anything to their accounts because the banks
| would automatically charge their pending loans.
|
| One of them was a victim of identity theft in which a five
| figure loan was made on her name, and the other had a legal
| order due to a debt from her ex-fiancee due to a cancelled
| wedding.
| pb7 wrote:
| > the other had a legal order due to a debt from her ex-
| fiancee due to a cancelled wedding
|
| Hmm, working as intended? Or do you think legal judgments
| should be easily avoidable?
| messe wrote:
| In the EU, bank accounts are considered a right. That's one
| solution to it.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| Given PSD2, its lackings and its bad implementations, some of
| us going towards the right of not having one - it is just the
| right of not being involved in lunacies.
| kwhitefoot wrote:
| In addition it discriminates against anyone who finds themselves
| even temporarily without power for their payment device whether
| they are a customer or a seller.
|
| But as the technology gets better and more reliable this gets
| rarer and rarer so that in the end it discriminates against those
| who already lack a different kind of power: social and political
| power. That is, the poor, the elderly, the sick, the disabled,
| the poorly educated, the illiterate and innumerate, those whose
| grasp of the local language is poor. I'm sure the list could be
| expanded.
| ncpa-cpl wrote:
| > In addition it discriminates against anyone who finds
| themselves even temporarily without power for their payment
| device whether they are a customer or a seller.
|
| And makes it more difficult to anyone who is outside their
| country of origin. Many payment apps are limited to residents
| and nationals only, while others are avaialble on specific
| country app stores.
|
| Like the migrant family fleeing from they country I met this
| evening. They told me they were stranded here while travelling
| to a better country.
|
| Neither her or I have banking apps that can talk to each other.
| But I was able to gift him enough for dinner for his family
| today. Quick interaction,from my wallet to their hand, no QR
| code to be scanned, no database to be updated.
| hinkley wrote:
| There's a satire sketch in there somewhere about not being able
| to buy a phone charger because your phone is dead.
| jjslocum3 wrote:
| It definitely discriminates against the Salvation Army, Buskers,
| and Panhandlers.
| coldtea wrote:
| It also discriminates across the middle class - it enables to
| nickel and dime them like never before (never mind the privacy
| implication and total government control of your wallet and
| purchases aspects)...
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| Everyone here seems to get it so there doesn't seem to be any
| support for the clinical insanity that is a "cashless society" in
| this thread.
|
| Probably preaching to the choir, but I briefly participated in a
| documentary of sorts which may be of interest [1].
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtM6tud8n1I
| rrauenza wrote:
| codelord wrote:
| I can't imagine we'll have banknotes and coins in 100 years from
| now. Cash is neither efficient nor environmentally friendly. The
| efforts around helping the marginalized groups should be focused
| on getting them a debit card not keeping cash around.
| sneak wrote:
| Giving the state and large corporations an unelected veto power
| (without due process!) over your ability to transact is an
| express train to a society without anyone having the ability to
| meaningfully dissent.
|
| i.e. a dystopia
| daveoc64 wrote:
| I think we need to remove barriers to people getting access to
| the technology that's needed to function in a modern society.
|
| In the UK, we have "basic bank accounts". These are aimed at
| people with bad credit history, and offer no line of credit, but
| do provide a debit card, which may also be used at an ATM.
|
| How are there 70 year olds today that worked throughout the 90s
| and 2000s without coming across a computer?
|
| I do wonder if these problems will eventually fizzle out, as more
| and more people have been exposed to technology throughout their
| lives and will be able to use it in their old age.
|
| While there may be some arguments against a cashless society from
| a privacy point of view, it's hard to argue with the convenience
| and cost savings that you get from going cashless.
| sneak wrote:
| The cost savings are from cash, not cashless. Cashless systems
| have the rails studded with rentseekers every step along the
| way.
| Nimitz14 wrote:
| Not all jobs are office jobs.
| prepend wrote:
| My dad is 78. He retired in 95 and never used a computer. He
| owns lots of them but can't use them for day to day activities,
| preferring to go in person to pay bills and whatnot.
|
| He loves to argue about convenience or as he sees it, massive
| inconvenience.
| Robotbeat wrote:
| One problem with cashless is it gives a ton of power to all
| intermediaries, which often are duopolies. Google and Apple.
| Credit card companies (Visa and Mastercard). These are able to
| extract a significant sales tax ("fee") from users and shut
| down accounts with little recourse. And the fact that it gives
| the government power to both monitor all transactions and
| immediately halt all transactions with that individual is like
| a massive Big Brother capability combined with a digital
| shackle that can keep anyone they want from moving. Can't use
| public transit, can't use micromobility bikes, can't use taxis,
| can't use airplanes, can't use your car (how do you get gas?
| Pay tolls?), can't even walk far as you can't buy food.
|
| I remember, growing up in a more "End Times" focused
| evangelical denomination, they were always talking about how
| barcodes or credit cards are maybe like the "Mark of the Beast"
| number in the book of Revelation, without which you can't make
| any transactions. That's paranoia, of course, but it's also
| kind of a good point. A fully cashless society using our
| typical methods puts a massive power into the hands of the
| government and a few very powerful corporations.
|
| It also tilts the power differential in favor of employers of
| all sizes. a local small business coffee shop I frequent
| doesn't pay super well, but they do tipping. The owner can
| easily keep track of how much tip money comes in and uses that
| as an excuse to employees that they can tolerate getting paid
| only $8/hour because they have tips. The employer also has
| control of the tip money that's paid in cashless form, and it's
| not unheard of for employers to take some of that money or
| withhold it. I prefer to use cash for more and more purchases,
| but for basically all tips, I tip in cash. (And I agree tipping
| in general is lame, but I don't want to punish employees for
| that.)
| Loughla wrote:
| >How are there 70 year olds today that worked throughout the
| 90s and 2000s without coming across a computer?
|
| Manufacturing, retail. Those are just two things that I can
| name where I personally know people in their 50's who have no
| real access to computers.
|
| >I do wonder if these problems will eventually fizzle out, as
| more and more people have been exposed to technology throughout
| their lives and will be able to use it in their old age.
|
| I bet they don't fizzle out. Technology is always changing. At
| some point in their past, even the 99 year old who couldn't
| turn on a smartphone today was hip on the current technology of
| the day.
| ghaff wrote:
| You can probably tack on the fact that owning a smartphone in the
| US is increasingly, if not mandatory, hard to do without.
| LinuxBender wrote:
| I've never witnessed this. I still do not own a smartphone. I
| am actually about to activate one for the first time but I have
| never needed a phone for anything other than calling or texting
| someone. I admit that texting on my T9 keypad is a PITA but I
| rarely text. I had a couple throw-away phones with keypads that
| were nice but they are hard to find _sidekick, etc..._
|
| What specific services do you depend on that require a smart
| phone?
| chordalkeyboard wrote:
| I succumbed to the smartphone in 2019 because my university
| expected it, both formally (2 factor authentication for
| student email/canvas/registration account) and informally
| (professor deciding to use an online quiz game as a fun way
| to review material and give extra points).
|
| Additionally every bank has an app and some of them don't
| have branches in every city so they say "just deposit checks
| via mobile"
| asdff wrote:
| For me its two factor authentication at work. The building
| was constructed in such a way that there is somehow no cell
| service at all in the building. I had a smartphone all this
| time but not the actual two factor app, I would have it call
| my phone and do a keypress but that only worked when I was
| working from home. When I go into the office, those calls
| don't go through, neither does texting a list of codes.
|
| There are other things in life that are certainly a lot more
| convenient with a smart phone. I rely on public transit,
| bussing and trains, and if I didn't have a smartphone that
| would make it a lot more difficult to navigate. Sure I could
| pull up a paper map of the bus routes and estimate what
| routing might be the most optimal to get to my destination by
| hand, and call up the transit agency operator line with my
| buss stop ID to ask when the next bus is slated to appear,
| but its infinitely easier to just use google maps and be done
| with it. When I am on the first bus and anticipating
| transferring to another bus, unless I knew that bus stop ID
| for the transfer point ahead of time I cannot call ahead and
| know when my transfer bus is arriving, for example.
| ghaff wrote:
| Well, not something I use a lot but Uber/Lyft. I don't _need_
| to use my banking app but otherwise I 'd have to drive to an
| ATM to deposit a check. Again, not essential, but there would
| be a lot more friction when traveling than otherwise.
|
| (And certainly there are a lot of things on the web that are
| hard to go without and I assume the typical case where
| someone doesn't have a smartphone doesn't have easy access to
| a computer either.)
| messe wrote:
| > but otherwise I'd have to drive to an ATM to deposit a
| check
|
| Are cheques really that common in the US still? In Ireland,
| and as far as I'm aware, the rest of the EU, it's rare to
| see a cheque at all these days. Almost everything is paid
| either on cards or some other form of electronic transfer.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > Are cheques really that common in the US still?
|
| Not really. Happens enough that you can't call it a
| surprise to see one, but they're only used in certain
| niches at this point. I write a check about once a year,
| for some edge case like I'm paying a contractor who
| refuses to just get Venmo or equivalent.
|
| Even where they are used (as someone mentioned, you do
| occasionally see elderly folks write them at the grocery
| store) they tend to be just a slightly different version
| of a debit card w/o PIN -- the stores now can instantly
| run them, there's no way to float one.
| messe wrote:
| > they tend to be just a slightly different version of a
| debit card w/o PIN -- the stores now can instantly run
| them, there's no way to float one.
|
| That's actually the most surprising thing I've heard in
| this thread. Having that ability would probably go some
| way toward explaining their longevity. Like I said in
| another comment, I don't even know if a grocery store /
| supermarket would accept a cheque here, mostly because
| they wouldn't have the ability to run them.
| ghaff wrote:
| Yeah. I don't know the details and I very rarely see them
| in stores. But there's some sort of system that, as
| parent says, basically immediately locks the funds so (as
| I understand it), there's no risk to the store.
|
| I assume things like car dealerships use the system as
| well. When I bought a car recently I just gave them a
| personal check which they were fine with. In the past I
| had to go to my bank and get a cashier's check.
|
| You don't even generally see signs about returned check
| fees these days.
|
| They're not super-common in general for _most_ use cases
| but they 're still the most straightforward way to make
| personal payments (other than in-person cash payments)
| without going through _some_ process that 's more
| involved than giving someone a piece of paper.
| [deleted]
| alistairSH wrote:
| Yes, sadly they're pretty common. My wife's side business
| is almost always paid with a check. I regularly, but not
| frequently, receive doctors bills or similar without
| online payment options, so I have to write ~12
| checks/year. My housekeeper doesn't accept Paypal/Venmo,
| so she's paid with a check as well. Sane for some random
| laborers (lawn, paint) who are working by word of mouth
| (and not employed by a larger firm). And it's pretty
| common for elderly people to use them to pay for
| groceries.
|
| I guess my counter-question is what does the rest of the
| world do for doctors bills or paying laborers who don't
| accept payment via Paypal/Venmo?
| warp wrote:
| Here in Ecuador it's mainly cash, but it's becoming more
| common to just do a normal bank transfer from a mobile
| phone. The banking app of my bank here (Pichincha) has a
| built-in option to share the payment as a .jpg via
| Whatsapp (or any messaging app) as a sort of confirmation
| to the recipient.
|
| In the Netherlands banking apps let you create "Payment
| Requests", which is basically a URL you can share with
| someone to have them pay you (you can pre-fill the amount
| they need to pay). Typically, if you open such an URL on
| your phone, it will let you jump into your banking app of
| _your_ bank to make the actual payment (even if the
| payment request is from a different bank than the on
| you're using).
| messe wrote:
| > And it's pretty common for elderly people to use them
| to pay for groceries.
|
| Interesting. I'm not even sure a grocery store /
| supermarket would accept a cheque here.
|
| > My housekeeper doesn't accept Paypal/Venmo, so she's
| paid with a check as well
|
| Here it'd be either cash in hand, or a bank transfer
| (same as rent, really). All you need is their IBAN
| (International Bank Account Number) and BIC (Bank
| Identifier Code), and most mobile banking apps will let
| you set up a monthly direct debit. You can sometimes run
| into issues if their bank account is in a different
| country to the bank you're transferring from--it's
| unlawful to discriminate between IBANs in different
| countries, although it tends to goes unpunished--but
| there's usually workarounds to that.
| alistairSH wrote:
| _same as rent, really_
|
| Also frequently paid by check.
|
| _All you need is their IBAN (International Bank Account
| Number) and BIC (Bank Identifier Code), and most mobile
| banking apps will let you set up a monthly direct debit._
|
| What is this dark magic?!?! lol. The US is comically
| awful at consumer banking.
| messe wrote:
| And actually just to add to the last question of your
| comment. We'd also pay for doctors bills by either cash,
| card, or direct debit. Healthcare in Ireland isn't
| perfect (long waiting times--but you can go private for
| quicker care), but it's relatively cheap (free under a
| certain income, in the cases of certain long-term medical
| conditions, and above a certain age), and heavily
| subsidized.
|
| My sister recently had a stay in hospital, and then later
| an emergency room visit. As far as I'm aware, it all
| totaled less than EUR200 (half of which will be refunded
| by insurance, and another 20% of the remainder as a tax
| credit), which was all paid for partially by card (to the
| GP who referred us to the hospital), and partially by
| bank transfer (to the hospital).
| ghaff wrote:
| Common enough. Ignoring the ones that I never see because
| my bank writes and delivers them for me, I still
| periodically get payments for things like FSA as a check.
| I also write maybe a couple dozen a year for various home
| service stuff.
|
| (That said, I probably only _deposit_ 5 or 6 checks a
| year. So putting them in an ATM at the bank wouldn 't be
| a horrible inconvenience. And they are getting less and
| less common.)
| iso1631 wrote:
| Still exist in the UK. I had to cash a cheque a few years
| ago, very amusing having to get my bank to send me some
| book of paper to do so.
| messe wrote:
| I mean, they still exist here in Ireland, my biological
| grandmother sent me one last christmas; it's still
| sitting on my desk and I haven't gotten around to cashing
| it.
| tobias_smollett wrote:
| If your grandmother balances her checking account every
| month, it's extra work for her to have outstanding
| checks. Also, people at the poverty level often don't
| know how much money they have to spend for the month
| until their rent and utility payments are deducted from
| their account. (they don't do math)
| ghaff wrote:
| They may also not be cashable after some length of time
| like 90 days.
| messe wrote:
| > Also, people at the poverty level [..] (they don't do
| math)
|
| I'm sorry, but what the fuck sort of paternalistic and
| defeatist attitude toward education is that?
|
| EDIT: I would like to apologize, I swore in my previous
| edit of this comment. I did not swear enough. Seriously
| what the absolute fuck sort of attitude is that toward
| people and swearing?
| theodric wrote:
| 'I like to use' is not the same as 'mandatory.' You can
| call a taxi, you can beg a lift, you can hitchhike, you can
| walk, you can drive.
|
| The Netherlands has a supermarket (Marqt) which does not
| accept cash. Thankfully, there are alternatives. Marqt is
| also so expensive that you're either a yuppie with a debit
| card or can afford to pay a shopper if you're getting your
| food there.
| LinuxBender wrote:
| _Uber /Lyft_
|
| Ah, that makes sense. I've never used those. I've used taxi
| cabs but maybe I am missing out or paying more than I
| should.
| nobody9999 wrote:
| >I've never used those. I've used taxi cabs but maybe I
| am missing out or paying more than I should.
|
| At least in my experience, you're not doing either of
| those things.
| duderific wrote:
| Uber/Lyft are so much more reliable than a standard taxi.
| Before the ridesharing apps, I'd had several experiences
| of trying to call a taxi company to come pick me up (this
| is in San Francisco). It never arrived after repeated
| calls to the dispatcher, saying "it's on the way." If
| they're overbooked, they simply ignore the requests and
| you have no remedy other than to call another taxi
| company, which is likely similarly impacted.
| morpheuskafka wrote:
| That seems rather circular. By definition Uber is a
| (supposedly) improved taxi service built on mobile
| computing/data service. If you were transported back in
| time before smartphones were common/socially essential,
| Uber wouldn't exist at all.
|
| That would be like an older person complaining they "have
| to have a smartphone" to see pictures of their grandkids,
| when it's actually the other around. Because smartphones
| exist, they can see pictures they otherwise would not have
| seen at all because no one would have driven to the store,
| printed them out, and mailed them (or had a camera to take
| them with) without that technology.
|
| Contrast that to something like parking, where using a
| phone app provides convenience and decreased operating
| costs, but the service itself is in no way dependent on
| people having phones.
| ghaff wrote:
| >Contrast that to something like parking, where using a
| phone app provides convenience and decreased operating
| costs, but the service itself is in no way dependent on
| people having phones.
|
| Well, if you can no longer pay for something that you
| used to be able to pay for with coins, you've lost
| something with a smartphone requirement.
|
| Otherwise I get your argument but, if instead of
| smartphone, you say computer--now say that you don't
| _really_ need a computer. You can phone people on your
| landline but many people won 't pick up. OK, you can't
| use Amazon but there are local stores you can get to. And
| so forth. At some point, it's probably not like you'll
| starve but you're cut off from a lot of modern
| interaction.
| yerich wrote:
| Being able to call an Uber or Lyft when I need it has made it
| much easier to live without a vehicle. I have tried to call a
| cab company using the phone before, but even they have
| transitioned to using apps for dispatch now.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| Would add airports. If I'm not checking a bag, I can walk
| straight to security, do an iris scan at CLEAR and show my
| digital boarding pass to security and at the gate.
|
| That said, there _are_ manual workarounds to almost
| everything requiring a smartphone. They're simply less
| efficient.
| asdff wrote:
| OTOH it only takes you thirty seconds to transmute your
| confirmation number into a paper boarding pass at the
| check in stations, which are empty now that everyone uses
| apple/android wallet. Maybe that would actually be better
| even if you have a smartphone, if you are concerned about
| battery life or roaming charges.
| ghaff wrote:
| In the US--I can't speak to CLEAR--but even with TSA Pre
| you have to show your ID. (I'm not sure they've even
| looked at my boarding pass when I've flown recently. I
| assume the computers are correlating my ID with the
| flight reservation in the system.)
|
| If I can conveniently print out a boarding pass either at
| home or at the airport I tend to do so. That way I'm not
| fiddling with my phone when I don't need to.
|
| (I think I've seen it the other way around in London at
| least.)
| messe wrote:
| > I can walk straight to security, do an iris scan at
| CLEAR
|
| I'm sorry, what? Outside the US I just show my boarding
| card prior to going through security. I'm pretty sure my
| ID doesn't get checked until I board the plane, so
| hearing that you show biometrics is a bit jarring.
|
| I was in the US a few weeks ago, but I can't remember if
| I had to show ID when going through security on leaving.
| I tend to work on autopilot when navigating airports.
| morpheuskafka wrote:
| It's been a while since I have flown anywhere, but I
| don't think we check ID at the gate here? So it's not
| really any better or worse, it's just at a different
| point in the process.
| messe wrote:
| You might be right. I'll be honest, my approach to
| airports and flying is to have a few drinks once I get
| past security and then sleep my way as best I can through
| the flight. I can't remember if my passport was checked
| when I boarded on leaving Seattle.
| soupfordummies wrote:
| Another example: parking.
|
| There are numerous streets that dont have meters now and just
| a sign to "pay on this parking app"
| macintux wrote:
| Yeah, I was thrilled when the parking app I signed up for
| to use once while I was visiting Chicago was hacked.
| AndrewUnmuted wrote:
| Nashville's parking situation went from "annoying" to
| "impossible" thanks to this garbage.
| tengbretson wrote:
| Obviously not essential, but NFL tickets no longer have a
| paper option. It is app-only.
| tobias_smollett wrote:
| The world cup in Qatar requires a specific app to manage
| your tickets. I really hope U.S. sports don't go down this
| route.
| intrepidhero wrote:
| Went to restaurant yesterday without paper menus. Just a QR
| code on the table that redirects to the website.
| ncpa-cpl wrote:
| Some restaurants link to their non-optimized printing
| quality PDF. A few restaurants have made me download a 20
| MB PDF, sometimes, while consuming my small and expensive
| roaming package.
| messe wrote:
| > while consuming my small and expensive roaming package.
|
| I'm curious. Do you get roaming charges having cross
| state-lines in the US, or do you have a nation-wide data
| package? Here in the EU, I'm on a plan that gives me
| unlimited data anywhere in europe, for around 30EUR a
| month.
| monocasa wrote:
| Roaming isn't really correlated to political boundaries
| like state lines here in the US. It tends to be when
| you're in a rural area that only a competing service has
| bothered to put up towers in.
| ghaff wrote:
| I haven't seen this for quite a few years but I use one
| of the major carriers. I assume it may still happen with
| more budget options in the US.
| tobias_smollett wrote:
| I've also seen where you have make your order on the
| website and then they deliver it to your table. I'm not
| sure if there was even any other way to order and pay.
| bombcar wrote:
| The local grocery store now has their coupons in an app _only_
| which has for certain reduced some people's ability to use
| them.
|
| Another store has online only coupons and just killed using
| checks, too. They do have a free ATM at least.
| [deleted]
| trylfthsk wrote:
| I think there almost needs to be a "Reacher Law", in that there
| should be minimal friction to participating in society aside from
| maybe cash and an ID. I definitely find a default assumption of
| having a smartphone that's creeping in everywhere (android / iOS
| compatible & has an active data plan) to be increasingly cloying.
|
| Currently, all I can do is politely decline and insist that I
| neither have the Play nor Apple store; I still find it
| uncomfortable even giving away my phone number. I couldn't even
| get into my gym the other day, since they'd transitioned to app
| sign-in only (phasing out barcode tags); I'm forced to beg the
| attendant to look me up by phone number _every time_.
|
| *EDIT: I hope ranting about smartphones in a cashless-ness thread
| isn't too off topic
| ghaff wrote:
| >I hope ranting about smartphones in a cashless-ness thread
| isn't too off topic
|
| I don't think so. Certainly it's hard to argue that _at least_
| a feature phone that you 're willing to give out the phone
| number for is well-nigh mandatory.
|
| As you say, go back not that many years and cash/travelers
| checks and appropriate ID (drivers license and/or passport)
| were really all you needed in general. In addition to phone,
| it's really hard without a credit card today as well.
| splitstud wrote:
| sneak wrote:
| I live in two countries, "I just got back to the country and
| don't have a sim card with a US number yet" is a high status
| "I'm never giving you my fucking phone number". For me it has
| the benefit of being true a lot of the time.
| loceng wrote:
| I could see something reasonable being a surcharge for allowing
| access to an "archaic" system - however then that fee should be
| subsidized to the business, by the centralized organizations,
| as such "archaic" systems are necessary mechanisms to counter
| potential tyranny-captured of centralized systems by very bad
| actors.
| rkagerer wrote:
| Completely on-topic. Phone-based identification is armed with
| too much capability inside the black box and limited means for
| the user to have a clue what is being leaked to whom.
| hinkley wrote:
| I think there was just a thread here last week about how
| homeless people get their stuff stolen or lost all the time.
| 2 Factor keeps people out when you can't reliably Bring
| Something.
|
| I don't generally want to say that too loud though because
| some politician will point out that they still have their
| eyes and fingertips so why can't we use biometrics instead.
| janalsncm wrote:
| 99.9% of people have eyes and fingertips. If we're going to
| require eye/fingertip authentication to function in society
| we need to solve for that last 0.1% as well.
| krolden wrote:
| Ive been doing some IT work at a cell phone store in a very low
| income area. There is a large number of people coming in to buy
| new phones or get their old ones repaired and many of them
| (especially the older ones) HATE that they need to have a
| smartphone. I hear at least one person a day complain about how
| they cant just have a normal land line anymore and need to have
| a smartphone to participate in society.
|
| Also they REALLY dont like hearing about how the phone they
| have now is obsolete and theres no way to get parts for it, or
| its just too far gone and they'll need to buy a new phone. I
| feel for all of these people as I totally agree with them.
| deltree7 wrote:
| Am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy in the ranter and
| general sympathy from HN code towards them.
|
| "Normal Land Line" wasn't something that came from nature. It
| is a sophisticated technology invented by humans with the
| same User Interface flaws and Laggard-Ranting that every
| generation goes through.
|
| When Mixed-Reality becomes popular, I'm sure there will be
| many complaining "why can't I just have simple smartphone"
| and there will probably some Gen Zers sympathizing with them
| and reminiscing about the simple days of smartphone.
|
| Newsflash: Adaption and Evolution is the name of the game. I
| can understand if a disabled person complains inability to
| use gadgets(although smartphones have better accessibility
| features), but you can bet your bottom dollar, most of these
| people whine because they aren't curious about the world and
| stubbornly refuse to adapt and the rest of the world has to
| bend over backwards to accommodate them?
| macintux wrote:
| A phone book and a touchtone (or even rotary) phone is
| _exponentially_ cheaper, simpler and easier to maintain
| than a smartphone.
|
| Yes, it's also exponentially more powerful, but it leaves a
| lot of people behind.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| That's because when they were young a 'normal land line' was
| the state of the art tech. Why were they fine using state of
| the art tech then? I guess older people at the time found it
| confusing and the people complaining to you probably thought
| they should get with the times.
|
| It's the same stuff just in a cycle.
| azalemeth wrote:
| Landlines were state-of-the-art tech more than a century
| ago; depending on when you define its invention it came at
| some point between 1844 and 1877 [1] and it was widespread
| by the second world war. There was a huge portion of the
| last century in which "just" having a landline was a
| relatively constant, relatively well defined utility and
| (from the consumer's point of view) the technology was
| mature and did not change much between arguably 1950 and
| about 1990. The rotary dial pulse dialling system was
| patented in 1891; the telephone I grew up using (in the
| 1980s) used essentially the same technology and pulse
| dialling gradually replaced it over the course of several
| decades. Most of the innovation took place on the side of
| the exchange, and the average telephone user probably
| noticed little other than changes in billing and a slowly
| decreasing frequency of talking to an operator.
|
| Cellphones are completely different. My "daily driver"
| smartphone, bought in 2017 for ~1/4 of my monthly salary,
| is obsolete and I have rooted it in order to continue to
| install security updates. This _has_ locked me out of my
| Danish bank account.
|
| My mum's 1980s PSTN phone still works, even when the mains
| electricity is out, no technology change required.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_telephone
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse_dialing
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > Landlines were state-of-the-art tech more than a
| century ago
|
| And they were state-of-the-art until the late 1990s, when
| mass consumer mobile phones became a thing.
|
| You can either be stubborn about tech, or adopt a grown-
| mindset and learn about new things.
|
| Their generated developed this technology - it can't be
| beyond them to learn it?
|
| > My mum's 1980s PSTN phone still works
|
| Well it doesn't for much of society - that's the point.
| JamesianP wrote:
| They had T1 and ISDN at least since the 70s.
|
| The landline is special because laws require a line-
| powered phone system that can survive outages. It's a
| minimal and reliable layer of infrastructure people which
| still makes perfect sense for people with limited
| communications needs.
| azalemeth wrote:
| > You can either be stubborn about tech, or adopt a
| grown-mindset and learn about new things. > Their
| generated developed this technology - it can't be beyond
| them to learn it?
|
| My point is that, actually, _no_ : nobody alive predates
| the popularisation of the telephone (the oldest person
| listed as being alive at the moment was born in 1904 - by
| which point there were ~3 m telephone subscribers in the
| US [1] https://www.technofunc.com/index.php/domain-
| knowledge/teleco...).
|
| I think the point about being resistant to learning new
| skills is one thing, extreme poverty and the historically
| _incredibly_ rapid widespread adoption of the smartphone
| is another. A smartphone from ten years ago is as good as
| useless for banking nowadays. If you 're an 80 year old
| pensioner on a fixed income, it may well both be a
| significant proportion of your income, have taken a long
| time to learn to use and not exactly be understanding of
| your (statistically quite likely to be present) visual or
| fine manual dexterity difficulties, and I can very much
| imagine that you feel locked out of society for no good
| reason.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > nobody alive predates the popularisation of the
| telephone
|
| I didn't claim that. I said it was the state-of-the-art
| until recently, and it was.
|
| But I know what you mean.
|
| (Except newer smart phones tend to have better support
| for accessibility as people realise it's more important.)
| hinkley wrote:
| I wonder how they'd react if I started bitching about having
| to have a car to participate in society.
| AndrewUnmuted wrote:
| [deleted]
| kgermino wrote:
| I'd posit it's quickly getting easier to live without a car
| than without a smartphone in the US.
|
| Plus, even if you live in an area where a car is required
| you have the option to opt out and move (housing crisis
| aside), which isn't an option to avoid smartphone
| requirements.
| chrsig wrote:
| well, you could always move somewhere very rural with
| poor cellphone reception.
| hinkley wrote:
| The people complaining about smart phones and the people
| who created the car-obsessed society are substantially
| the same people.
| milsorgen wrote:
| I've made it to my late 30s only owning a car for maybe 2
| or 3 of those years. I've never felt the desire, my mom
| always commented it was odd back when I was a teenager...
| But I digress, it is very possible and it's easier than
| ever. I grew up on the rural west coast, moved inland to an
| agricultural area. Never living in a proper city by most
| metrics. Certainly I've missed some opportunities along the
| way, c'est la vie, but it is easier than ever and I'm
| meeting more and more people like me as time goes on. I
| also don't have a photo ID as a general rule, but that's a
| whole different can of worms and in some cases much more
| limiting than living car free. Most people seem to create
| their own hurdles or embiggen real ones that they do face,
| certainly I do in my own ways so don't take that as a
| judgement just an observation. Choosing to go carless is
| not half the hurdle many people perceive it to be.
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| It may sound odd, but you are not bolstering your argument
| here. The parent is arguing for a way to ensure that
| participation in society is not bound by one's ability
| arrange for unrelated physical objects other than cash and
| ID to participate. And that is before we even get to how
| much having a car and cell phone governs one's life in US.
| Not everyone believes it is a good societal structure.
|
| Note that I am not arguing one way or another, but outright
| dismissal is not an appropriate counter argument.
| hinkley wrote:
| Oh I'm not saying either is good. I'm saying that the
| shoe is on the other foot now.
| fabianhjr wrote:
| Public Transit (from local buses to inter-city trains)
| should be high quality and frequent.
|
| That is reality in a lot of the world including Europe,
| China, and South America.
|
| I agree with the sentiment of not generally needing to have
| a car and fortunately that is the case in most of the world
| (except the USA)
| andrepd wrote:
| In _part_ of Europe, China, and South America.
| redavni wrote:
| >I couldn't even get into my gym the other day, since they'd
| transitioned to app sign-in only (phasing out barcode tags)
|
| If it is QR code based, take a screenshot or picture of the QR
| code. I just login with the photo app anymore lol.
| Findecanor wrote:
| Very on topic. Here in Sweden cashless payments using
| smartphones have largely replaced cash for person-to-person
| transactions.
|
| The proprietary payment app in turn relies on a proprietary app
| for electronic ID which authorises bank transactions. And those
| demand a relatively recent version of iOS or Android and that
| the phone is not rooted. The e-ID is only available to citizens
| and residents, which means that people such as foreign students
| or guest workers can't get one. (And then the privacy and
| security issues of the e-ID system is a can of worms...)
| azalemeth wrote:
| It's the same in Denmark. I get charged extra by the bank for
| using cash and others look at me weird. I have a rooted
| Android phone and am privacy mad. Most Danes think I'm a
| weird foreigner (which, to be fair, I am!)
| delecti wrote:
| Conversely, loads of places in Germany don't even accept
| card payments. I go there occasionally for work and can't
| easily avoid getting at least some cash to make it through
| the week.
| jedimastert wrote:
| > aside from maybe cash and an ID
|
| I get and fully support what you're going for, but friendly
| reminder that (in America) having an ID can actually be
| somewhat difficult in a variety of circumstances where people
| are most vulnerable to being left out. It's actually kind of a
| hot button issue
| motohagiography wrote:
| It discriminates against everyone except the minority of public
| administrators it ensconces. It literally removes the discretion
| and ownership of money if you cannot physically possess it. It
| polarizes people involved in grey market transactions into a
| permanent underclass who cannot escape it, and just partial
| cashlessness has been used within the last several or so hours to
| disenfranchise political opposition. That it is being discussed
| seriously at all is an offensively false equivalence. The only
| people who are "cashless" in a cashless society are the citizens
| from whom the cash is taken.
|
| The arguments back like, "I have nothing to hide," or, "cards are
| just convenient," aren't centerist or neutral, they are the banal
| nihilism of people suited to scheduling prison trains, imo.
| post-it wrote:
| I agree. I personally prefer paying by card 100% of the time,
| but cash should always be an option. I think it's fine for cash
| to be a little less convenient - when paying for gas, for
| example, the pump might only take card, and if you want to pay
| by cash you have to go into the store. Or a store may not be
| able to provide exact change and that's fine.
| sneak wrote:
| I always like to remind people "when you pay with your card,
| you help finance the forever war".
| bombcar wrote:
| Cash is so simple a four year old can understand it.
|
| Everything else may be more convenient in various ways, but it's
| more complicated, too. And with unexpected things that can
| happen.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| [X] doubt
|
| Inasmuch as they can understand a payment card equally well.
| They don't understand acquisition of [cash] money, but equally
| don't understand why the magic plastic rounded-rectangle works.
| They can use a payment card more easily than cash in my limited
| experience (as a parent and uncle).
| bombcar wrote:
| My kids at least understand that "a dollar" can be exchanged
| for "good or services" and that if they want more they have
| to find another dollar. They haven't quite grasped that a
| coin isn't as good as a dollar, or that a 1 and a 10 are
| different.
|
| A payment card would seem to either be magic (it always
| works!) or confusingly not consumed in its use but still not
| work again later (gift card).
| Robotbeat wrote:
| Yeah, my kids understand physical money and use it to buy
| ice cream from the ice cream man (the primary use of
| physical money for allowance).
| ghaff wrote:
| And more brittle, in at least _some_ ways, as well. When I
| travel, especially internationally, I try to be prepared so
| that I wouldn 't be completely screwed if my phone decided to
| die on me. Of course, stuff can always happen like your bag
| being snatched but I try to be in a position at least to deal
| with an electronic device just crapping out.
| tobias_smollett wrote:
| My credit card had a fraud block put on it because I tried to
| make a large payment while out of the country (Thanks for
| nothing Capital One). Even after they accepted the payment a
| few days later I still had to jump through many hoops to get
| the card unblocked. I now think 3 credit cards plus a bunch
| of cash is the minimum when traveling out of the country.
| bombcar wrote:
| Some credit cards let you put a travel itinerary in their
| records, to reduce the chance of this happening (if I
| recall correctly, American Express will do it for you
| automatically, so if you buy a plane ticket to Rome,
| they'll know charges from Italy are probably good).
|
| But yes, multiple SEPARATE funding sources and cash are a
| minimum when traveling, even within the US imo.
| maccard wrote:
| Multiple bank accounts, even if you operate primarily
| with cash, are a requirement for normal living. You
| always want a backup, preferably isolated from the
| original.
| ghaff wrote:
| Agree.
|
| There is a sufficient hair trigger on fraud alerts these
| days that you _really_ need a diversified set of cards when
| traveling--especially internationally. And, yes, get some
| cash though in post-COVID travel world I 'm probably now
| stuck with a bunch of random foreign cash I'm never going
| to spend. (Pounds/Euros I can deal with but a bunch of
| other smaller currencies I doubt I can easily exchange.)
|
| Travel notifications can help. But I've even had random
| declines for $20 purchases at US gas stations.
| asdff wrote:
| A good way to always have cash while travelling is to get a
| belt wallet. You will get mugged for your phone and your bag
| and what they presume to be your actual wallet, but they
| aren't going to ask for your belt or even whatever you might
| have shoved into your sock.
| mindslight wrote:
| Unfortunately TSA generally makes you remove your money
| pouch when they're feeling up your genitals, making it so
| everyone can see that you have a money pouch. Yet another
| way the Orwellian-named agency makes individual travelers
| less secure.
| asdff wrote:
| They might make you remove your belt but they won't open
| the belt up or anything like that. Plus you probably
| won't be mugged at the airport itself or make yourself
| much of a target beyond everyone else putting a $2000
| laptop on the conveyer belt.
| Robotbeat wrote:
| I sometimes have removed my ID or credit card from my
| wallet while going through TSA and I just kept it in my
| fingers (visible to them) while getting Terahertz scanned
| or going through metal detectors, so it never left my
| person. Protecting against the small risk of it being
| stolen during the process of X-raying my belongings and
| recovering them.
| ghaff wrote:
| Yeah. Most places I wouldn't bother but there are
| circumstances where that's good advice--though I'd probably
| actually use something where I could tuck in a spare credit
| card.
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| Some places in Africa, you get paid in 'minutes' on your phone.
| Some app lets you transfer this credit, and thus it's used as
| some sort of cashless payment.
|
| If I remember it right.
|
| So anyway it seems the article's question can be answered with a
| resounding No! if folks in Africa see this as cheaper than
| ordinary currency.
| jabroni_salad wrote:
| Africa had this running via SMS on flip phones over a decade
| ago, no app needed. You didn't have payment terminals much of
| anywhere outside the big cities, so that's just how electronic
| payments on the ground tended to work.
| ghaff wrote:
| The experience in Africa and Asia does seem to suggest that,
| like it or not, many people who are clearly poor appear able to
| deal with cashless transactions just fine. Of course, arguably
| it's become more the norm in some places (and maybe cash is
| more problematic) so people just deal with it.
| beambot wrote:
| Quite literally equating time & money...
| isaacremuant wrote:
| Yes. Absolutely. It also is more error prone and a dangerously
| distopic way for governments or corporations to target an
| individual since governments only seem to get stronger through
| surveillance and the codification of emergency powers that become
| permanent.
|
| I love the convenience but it needs to be an option, not an
| obligation.
| samsquire wrote:
| If I could pay for something completely with something I know and
| not what I have. I would feel I could leave my house without keys
| and without a phone or bank card.
|
| So need some form of secure identity that can scale and be secure
| even on insecure terminals.
|
| Perhaps a combination of password, mobile phone number, PIN and
| email. Then you could verify the transaction with the email or
| phone. But you could also opt to not use phone and email for a
| less attestation that you transacted.
| ghaff wrote:
| You can often pay with something you wear (with Apple Pay). But
| I would never depend on it so I do carry a small wallet. And I
| need keys for my car (which is probably just as well).
| jleyank wrote:
| Cashless, lessee:
|
| - barter economy when the power or network or website goes down.
|
| - all transactions tracked.
|
| - can have your money disabled by a 3rd party.
|
| - transaction fees, particularly when traveling internationally.
|
| - magnetic fields suck. Plastic gets brittle.
| LinuxBender wrote:
| Adding to this:
|
| - As more banks participate in ESG and experiment with what
| they can get away with, people may lose access to their funds
| if they hold the wrong beliefs or lack good social credit
| score. This is already in place in China and all the big banks
| are looking at dipping their toes into this game.
|
| PayPal already experimented with this and back-peddled when
| their stock dipped as a result. A few dozen big banks in the US
| are now participating in ESG. Only time will tell what they
| dare to implement.
| RichardCNormos wrote:
| You only have to look as far as Canada to see this in action.
| Canada leveraged banks for political revenge this year:
| https://yesithappened.substack.com/p/canada-froze-bank-
| accou...
| Ruthalas wrote:
| What is 'ESG' in this context?
| klyrs wrote:
| "Discriminating" against the oil industry
| [deleted]
| peyton wrote:
| Strangely the oil industry is doing great. And their ESG
| metrics look great, too.
| [deleted]
| LinuxBender wrote:
| ESG's are environmental, social, and governance metrics. It
| is a method of altering the behavior of businesses and
| individuals through incentives or in some cases
| disincentives. Rather than altering group and individual
| behavior through legislation, banks and financial
| institutions can alter the behavior of businesses and
| people using a social credit score.
|
| The legislators of my state and several other states are
| actively fighting banks that exhibit this behavior. None of
| the small banks I interact with will ever participate in
| that concept.
|
| [1] - https://www.heartland.org/publications-
| resources/publication...
| version_five wrote:
| This is bang-on. We're seeing daily examples of companies
| forcing their "values" on users, and it's most acute in big
| monopolies. It's fine to debate whether people should be
| kicked off twitter (they can just build their own lol), but
| depriving people of money in retaliation is a whole other
| level, only seen in places like Canada
| Asraelite wrote:
| > only seen in places like Canada
|
| Did you mean China, or is there something that happened in
| Canada that I'm not aware of?
| TeeMassive wrote:
| They froze the bank accounts of some Freedom Convoy
| donors.
|
| The worse part of it is that some are denying that it
| happened, even though the Deputy Prime Minister made an
| official announcement about it.
| DerekL wrote:
| > - magnetic fields suck. Plastic gets brittle.
|
| The chips in credit cards aren't damaged by magnetic fields.
| Mag stripes will eventually be discontinued. (For instance,
| cards from Mastercard won't have mag stripes after 2033.)
| pb7 wrote:
| Cash can get lost, stolen, or damaged. It is especially a risk
| when you're bringing a bunch of cash for an international trip.
|
| > transaction fees, particularly when traveling internationally
|
| Many banks offer no international transaction fee cards.
| Charles Schwab Checking is one such example.
|
| > magnetic fields suck. Plastic gets brittle
|
| Cash is filthy disgusting and deteriorates. Also risk of
| receiving counterfeit bills.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| Details.
|
| "Cash-less" society means loss of anonymity.
|
| The matter is not with options, but with lack of options.
| influxmoment wrote:
| Happen to HK protesters. Antigovt democracy protests can be
| tracked participating in protests through credit card use
| TEP_Kim_Il_Sung wrote:
| Everything that was bad about Corporate Scrip, is bad about
| cashless.
| anonporridge wrote:
| Cash is just nation state scrip.
|
| And the nation state is just the corporation with the local
| monopoly on violence.
| MikusR wrote:
| Money is made from plastic
| mindslight wrote:
| The fundamental problem with this regressive "discrimination"
| framework is that it divides people into a dichotomy of "having
| agency" and "having no agency", and then focuses the analysis on
| those with no agency while ignoring the concerns of those with
| agency. Essentially it asks the wrong question, stands in for
| real discussion about societal problems from such things, and
| allows real issues to be handwaved away as those with agency just
| needing to choose to "get with the program".
|
| I am 100% dead set against "cashless society", not because I am
| "unable" to use anything else, but because it is less private,
| less empowering, and outright less convenient. Sure, I'll
| sometimes give in to the financial surveillance industry to get
| money back, or to make returns easier, or to do online purchases,
| or to avoid trading fomites during Covid. But ideally I want to
| transact in cash. Make the decision to spend a given amount of
| money exactly once, and not suffer the same transaction multiple
| times as I see my agglomerated statements at the end of the
| month.
|
| With friends, no fucking Paypal, Venmo, Zelle, or whatever fly by
| night crap is popular this week that undoubtably forces some
| nonconsentual "terms" at me. Never mind creating yet another
| insecure account that has to be checked every month lest I end up
| responsible for a company's negligence. Cash - we settle and then
| we forget about it. Sometimes it's higher, sometimes it's lower,
| most of the time it evens out, sometimes it doesn't but we assume
| it does and move on with our lives.
|
| Like maaaaaybe in the far future if phones are ever personal
| computing devices that represent individuals, and we have the
| security properties granted by systems like Monero, and software
| designed for end users and not surveillance companies, then I'd
| be happy to settle with digital money. But it's foolish to jump
| the gun and pretend that any of the junk currently being pushed
| by surveillance companies represents that sort of idyllic future
| in any way.
| asdff wrote:
| I think another big problem with digital versus paper money is
| that you can't just transmute money from cash to cashless
| without you having an institution involved along the way. I
| can't take a picture of a dollar bill and add it to my venmo
| account, unless I go buy a venmo gift card from a merchant, or
| I open an account with a bank and deposit the cash through
| their physical bank branch or an ATM network they've partnered
| with. Even with crypto, you are relying on some other
| institution like the echange or the bitcoin ATM or whatever to
| turn that dollar bill into a digital currency.
| kepler1 wrote:
| > _Does cashless society discriminate against the poor and
| elderly_?
|
| Of course it does. But so did society that started adopting the
| telephone, or automobiles, for people who didn't have money to
| buy telephones or cars, or didn't want to get on board the
| technological change. And what doesn't discriminate against poor
| people, by the way? The poor are always getting the short end of
| the stick. You come up with ways to help them, but railing
| against a new technology because it disadvantages some has never
| worked.
|
| I'm not saying I'm in favor of cashless, but whatever the
| technology is, life adopts it and moves on. People have to deal.
| Or they die and get replaced with people who do. You will never
| get 100.000% of the people on something that takes away what you
| used to rely on.
| clord wrote:
| I'm running into this. A family member is in the hospital, but
| she took care of all the bills and whatnot. Her husband is having
| a very hard time figuring out how to pay bills, etc. I've been
| helping him out but the situation is teaching me how hard it is
| to do things for someone outside of technology these days.
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