[HN Gopher] Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating a...
___________________________________________________________________
Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against
software?
Today in Trondheim, Norway, around 100 health doctors & nurses
demostrated by walking with torches trough the city against the
implementation of a new software in the hospital. The Helseplatform
is an adaptation of Epic to the Norwegian Health system. Have this
ever happen in history before? How bad can something be that users
go out in the street to demostrate?
Author : quijoteuniv
Score : 91 points
Date : 2022-10-17 19:53 UTC (3 hours ago)
| motohagiography wrote:
| Just this year, Canada invoked its federal emergencies act
| against protesters who were revolting against a mobile app that
| was being used as a vaccine passport. It is still required for
| some travel, but since it only impacts a minority of the
| population who don't work in media, it's not part of the popular
| discourse. The irony is that the public inquiry launched in
| response is only into the use of the act against protesters, and
| not into the abuses that led to it.
| Qtips87 wrote:
| Years ago I talked to a guy who worked there and at that time
| they were using VB6. I am sure it has changed now. Anyway I read
| that Epic sue TCS because some of the contractors from TCS stole
| its code.
| therealplato wrote:
| this month a bunch of people closed their paypal accounts in
| response to a planned policy change that claimed the power to
| take $2500 from accounts that published misinformation. paypal
| claimed it was a mistake
|
| https://twitter.com/hashtag/BankruptPaypal
|
| https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2022/10/10/how-to-delete...
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/xzdu8x/whats_...
| specialist wrote:
| A bunch of us were pretty grumpy about Diebold touchscreen voting
| machines, imprinting our ballots with our voter ids, automatic
| signature verification, new tabulators.
|
| We activists organized, got press, managed to make election
| integrity a campaign issue, and nudged some laws and rules
| towards sanity.
| msbarnett wrote:
| Sure. Public servants rally in Ottawa to protest Phoenix payroll
| system: https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/public-
| servants-ra...
|
| Highly doubt that this is the only time a Peoplesoft clusterfuck
| inspired demonstrations, either. Some software is just
| unbelievably shitty.
| 3pt14159 wrote:
| Also, ArriveCan was frequently mentioned by many in the
| protests around covid.
|
| From my end: I dislike near-mandatory apps by governments, but
| I felt like Covid was an exceptional time and at least it is
| non-mandatory now at the boarder.
| h4n1 wrote:
| ArriveCAN was quite stupid, but at least it was fairly simple
| and the mobile app was just a convenient wrapper around the
| web app. It could have been so much worse.
| vedran wrote:
| Although it did cost $54 million.
| https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/arrivecan-app-cost-cbsa-
| brea...
| 3pt14159 wrote:
| Honestly, as a former government contractor at a couple
| different places, this is pretty good bang for the buck.
| The planning meetings alone were probably $12m.
| yassini wrote:
| I've seen a few people protesting against GitHub, mostly because
| they profit of the code that is hosted on there (notably GitHub
| Copilot) More on that here:
| https://sfconservancy.org/GiveUpGitHub/ Though this is online.
|
| For real life, people in Germany went to the streets a few times
| already because of the so-called "Staatstrojaner" (Basically a
| trojan that they can inject into all devices of someone who is
| "suspicious" in the governments eyes, they're probably using
| Pegasus, but I'm not super deep into that topic). Ref:
| https://netzpolitik.org/2022/protest-so-war-die-erste-demo-g...
| (There is way more on that though)
| guilhas wrote:
| In the UK NHS, the staff have software that they think is
| working, but the management thinks its best to change. They are
| changing systems every year, once they have adapted, there it
| comes a new platform that is "going to solve everything"... their
| email provider, the patients management, drugs stock, the staff
| management, reporting... then they get tablets, then laptops, the
| PCs on wheels, then barcodes... Combined with their understaffed
| shifts, errors are increasing, and people dying
|
| Obviously people are tiered, but they can barely finish their
| shifts, let alone have strength to protest. The whole thing must
| be about to implode soon
| shaburn wrote:
| Benioff staged a fake "end of software" protest against Siebel as
| a marketing ploy, successfully attracting news coverage.
| https://entrepreneurshandbook.co/the-staged-protest-that-kic...
| unknown2374 wrote:
| Yes, there was a protest in Seattle, SF, NYC a few weeks ago
| against Google's Project Nimbus (used by apartheid regime).
| voski wrote:
| Put yourself in the shoes of the staff. They have a workflow that
| works for them that was taken away. It's replaced with a new
| system that they do not know how to use. Now they can't even do
| their jobs normally. I could see them being really upset about
| this.
| aaron695 wrote:
| preezer wrote:
| Sure - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKr9wcQyyHo
| 9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote:
| As a healthcare consumer, I've been pretty dissapointed with EHR
| - apparently transferring medical data between hospitals requires
| an "hourly fee" and consultants, possible even if both hospitals
| use Epic MyChart?
|
| https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/10/epic-systems-ju...
| awinter-py wrote:
| I mean 'exit voice and loyalty' right? A few paying users,
| getting a little loud about the product they pay for, can change
| priorities pret-ty quickly
|
| Or like enterprise software -- some of these were initially built
| for a single client. Others have many customers but a few whales
| that cover most of payroll.
|
| Harder w/ consumer stuff (google reader), there's less 'voice'
| and more 'exit', and 'exit' sometimes doesn't get the point
| across until it's too late
| exDM69 wrote:
| Same software, different country:
| https://fi.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apotti_(potilastietoj%C3%A4r...
|
| It's been a very expensive disaster on the taxpayers' dime.
|
| Similar problems in UK and Denmark (links in Wikipedia).
| quijoteuniv wrote:
| This reminds me of the Monorail chapter in the Simpsons...
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marge_vs._the_Monorail
| humanistbot wrote:
| There was a case more than 20 years ago of a similar revolt
| against a Canadian hospital's automated drug dispensing machine
| that would only let nurses withdraw the exact dose of medicine a
| patient needed in a short window around when patient was supposed
| to take each dose. It was so bad it got written up into an
| academic article:
| https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/016224390202700...
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| > they resented features that controlled their time and their
| autonomy
|
| Of course. Nobody likes being controlled by software. The
| computer is supposed to obey us, not the other way around.
| Software controlling humans is a violation of basic human
| dignity.
| wombatpm wrote:
| Computer says No
| prox wrote:
| That reminds of that Star Trek episode "Critical Care" where
| people only get the resources allowed by an AI overseer. How
| does this even pass an early review?
| hotpotamus wrote:
| It sounds a bit like the smart contract/DAO thing, doesn't
| it?
| CTDOCodebases wrote:
| Yes. Many people pirate software when they are unsatisfied with
| the price or features.
| nmaley wrote:
| The Robodebt scandal in Australia didn't spill over to violence
| in the streets, but it came close. Robodebt was a debt collection
| system introduced by the Federal government to recover supposed
| overpayments of social security. It was flawed at every level,
| including software design, and resulted in nationwide protests.
| see https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/6037228/robo-debt-
| cen...
| kragen wrote:
| It wasn't the collection agents who were protesting, though; it
| was the people being used by the software who protested against
| it, not the people who used it.
| mediumdeviation wrote:
| Similar but worse, the Horizon scandal in the UK where bugs in
| Fujitsu stocktaking software sent post office workers to jail
| and ruined lives because administrators took the software's
| side when it found accounting shortfalls
| https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56718036
| xupybd wrote:
| We had a software system screw up teachers pay for months
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novopay
|
| Before that a massive failure of a Police software system
| https://www.nzherald.co.nz/technology/insights-into-incis-de...
|
| They didn't demonstrate against it's adoption but there were
| demonstrations as a result of the massive waste of funds and
| impact to people involved.
| smoldesu wrote:
| There is the infamous "Windows Refund Day"
| http://marc.merlins.org/linux/refundday/
| drivers99 wrote:
| Another one I remember is the protest against Adobe.
| https://www.eff.org/press/archives/2008/04/21-19
| Engraver9944 wrote:
| I have never heard of uber, just like you
| otikik wrote:
| Isn't that what the farmers did against John Deere's "lock your
| tractor through software" software?
| peyton wrote:
| All the big tech company HQs regularly have protestors for random
| issues, some software-related.
| forgetfreeman wrote:
| If this truly is the first time I can't think of a more worthy
| target. As a patient I loathe MyChart and based on my
| conversations with friends in the healthcare industry it isn't
| solving any of their problems either.
| rollinDyno wrote:
| Not actual physical mobilization but when the amount of
| mistreatment the team (and founder) behind Roam Research became
| too much, users started switching en masse and very vocally.
|
| It was a lot of drama, I don't think I've ever seen a promising
| start-up blow the lead in this way. All because the founder
| thought himself to be the next Steve Jobs and thought that he had
| a defensible moat (spoiler alert: he didn't) so he could treat
| his users however he liked and charge them for five year plans
| without offering a road map.
| 317070 wrote:
| Here you go, from a UK protest against a programme for
| automatically grading students. If I remember correctly, there
| were street protests across the UK.
|
| https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/129527788941230489...
| https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/feb/18/the-studen...
| awinter-py wrote:
| related, people were pretty angry about covid-era remote exam
| proctoring / goguardian-style spyware
| Insanity wrote:
| Not to that extend. I remember that when Left 4 Dead 2 was
| announced, there was a boycot movement:
| https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/05/one-zombie-of-a-chanc...
| forinti wrote:
| Any suggestion of using Linux for end users, even if they really
| only need a browser, is quickly beaten down.
| quacked wrote:
| Secondary to the question, but I live right by the Epic campus
| and use the Epic MyChart platform to communicate with the
| University of Wisconsin health system. It is _phenomenal_ as a
| patient; I can handle all billing, message any doctor I 've seen,
| view test results as soon as they're uploaded, etc. Recently I
| saw the results of some bloodwork in the ER before the nurses had
| time to come and tell me about it. (The UI/UX is awful, though.)
|
| I look at the screens of the medical staff when I'm in the office
| and I can see why they don't like Epic; bad UI/UX and they
| definitely reorder and rearrange common menus when there's a big
| update. For overworked medical staff it's got to be a nightmare.
|
| There must be a middle ground. I never want to go back to a
| healthcare system where I don't have something like Epic, but
| also it would be nice to have a platform with a more stable,
| simple design philosophy.
| alchemist1e9 wrote:
| Totally agree. Even better is doctors from different providers
| can likely see your records from each other. It isn't fool
| proof but it's getting pretty good. If a provider doesn't use
| Epic then I'll be looking for a different provider at this
| point.
| colinmhayes wrote:
| I have some doctors in my family and they told me that when
| their system switched to Epic, Epic sent a consultant to sit in
| their office for months and answer questions because every new
| user complains about UX.
| an1sotropy wrote:
| I agree that my healthcare interactions have been improved by
| Epic. But Epic has no motivation to keep improving, because
| they control most [1] of the US medical records, and once a
| hospital is a client, its practically impossible for the
| hospital to also try a competitor's record management system
| (medical records are not unique in the enormous cost of
| switching between systems). So even while we can be glad for
| mychart we will suffer the increasing downsides of Epic's
| practical monopoly, without even knowing how much better it
| could be.
|
| [1]
| https://www.forbes.com/sites/katiejennings/2021/04/08/billio...
| electriccatblan wrote:
| Disclaimer: My Epic experience is around a decade old.
|
| I never saw a riot, but I definitely saw providers who hated
| Epic when it was installed. As in people literally screaming at
| the top of their lungs at IT nerds. I saw a few contributing
| factors:
|
| 1. Epic supports making all the technically-mandatory-but-not-
| mandatory-if-you're-in-a-hurry data actually mandatory, so
| providers have more typing and less ability to just get stuff
| done when needed (which minimizes agency).
|
| 2. Related to above, Epic will make the updates for any new
| regulation, which increases the amount of data providers need
| to collect.
|
| 3. The customizability of the Epic UI and workflows for each
| type of visit was completely insane; many permutations of steps
| in a visit had to be supported which meant a huge maintenance
| surface with ok coverage rather than an opinionated workflow
| for each visit that could be optimized and improved over time.
| PubliusMI wrote:
| >technically-mandatory-but-not-mandatory-if-you're-in-a-hurry
|
| :/
| etiam wrote:
| Now proceed to imagine that software being shoehorned into a
| healthcare system where many aspects of the US healthcare
| system are _impossible_ to fill out at the care provider side,
| because they don 't exist in the society model. (Let's be
| honest, you guys have opted for a model which have several very
| distinctive features in an international comparison).
|
| And I'd be surprised if the Norwegians didn't already have the
| positive aspect on the patient side in whatever this is now
| supposed to replace.
| quijoteuniv wrote:
| yes, the patient side already exist here as far as I know.
| Helseplatform use their endpoints. The integration is mostly
| for the hospital, pre-ER and city health services. The pre-ER
| or LegeVakt (Scandinavian system you call/go if you need
| assistance but is not life threatning) has been using it for
| a few months and service level is now so bad that they have
| apologised in the newspapers. The city that has been sold
| this system had a wishful thought that all the doctors
| practices (and all Norway) was also going to use it. This is
| simply not going to happen now. However the "city" used so
| much money on this that they refuse to hear the health
| personel and insist on going further with the project without
| improving the system. Apparently Epic selling points was
| something like "It is not going to happen what happened in
| Denmark" Maybe some Danish people can iluminate on what
| happened there.
| kelnos wrote:
| Yeah, UCSF here also uses MyChart, and I agree that it's great
| from the perspective of the power and flexibility it offers me,
| even if the UX isn't fantastic (frankly, I think it's _fine_ ,
| though could be better).
|
| But, like you, I've also observed medical staff inputting my
| data during a visit, and it looks _terrible_ , and I've also
| noticed significant UI changes on occasion. (I've gone in once
| a month for the past two years for an allergy immunotherapy
| injection, so I get to see it regularly, and over time.) I've
| only heard the nurses complain once or twice, but I can kinda
| tell how they occasionally stumble with the UI, and it all just
| seems completely unavoidably bad. A little user research would
| go a long way, but I imagine the cost of switching to another
| system (if there even are that many good options) is so high
| that a hospital might ignore staff complaints anyway, so the
| company is not incentivized to spend time and money to make
| things better.
| closeparen wrote:
| >message any doctor I've seen
|
| Doctors especially hate this part, since they don't get
| reimbursed for fielding these messages and (unlike scheduled
| appointments) there's no limit to how many there can be or how
| quickly they can come.
| analog31 wrote:
| In every case that I've messaged a doctor through Epic, a
| nurse replies. I doubt that the doctors are being interrupted
| at random moments to field these inquiries.
| WWLink wrote:
| I feel like that's something that should really be
| accommodated for in the billing/insurance model. It kinda is
| with HMOs and primary doctors, AFAIK they get paid whether
| you see them or not. Just not in the PPO model.
|
| (I warn, I know nothing about how it actually works!)
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| Yeah. These messaging services essentially place doctors on
| call at zero extra compensation.
| fivre wrote:
| there was that one time laura loomer chained herself to the
| twitter building, but that was more a one-person publicity stunt
| than a protest.
|
| this does seem about par for the course for Epic installs, which
| suffer a great deal of typical enterprise software disease. i
| have fond recollections of their user-facing staff training
| including a dedicated section for "how do i, a new grad with a
| sociology degree and 3mo of EMR training, convince a bunch of
| decade-veteran nurses and physicians that i have enough industry
| knowhow to effectively advise them how to navigate their
| complicated EMR install?"
|
| if not a in-person protest, this did remind me of an extremely
| early 2010s meme format on the subject:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt1BPvMbNpk
| 28304283409234 wrote:
| I actually have a translated copy of this book:
|
| https://www.ibiblio.org/mal/MO/matusow/beastofbiz.html
|
| Also see:
| https://www.manchesteropenhive.com/view/9781526160720/978152...
|
| "The result was the launch of the International Society for the
| Abolition of Data Processing Machines (ISADPM) - President,
| Harvey Matusow. The society was in many ways a media construct
| and little substantial activity took place on the ground,
| although much was promised. It was a minor, but for a time
| significant, part of a broader public debate in England around
| the emerging database society. It resonated with a cultural
| unease around computerization and its medium effects felt in the
| late 1960s, what might be termed a database anxiety. For many at
| that time computers seemed alien and the proposition that they
| might be 'far more deadly than the Beatles' yellow submarine', as
| one US Congressman put it, 4 not entirely absurd."
| zitterbewegung wrote:
| Reddit mods shut down their subreddit after a few bad decisions
| that they didn't like.
| unethical_ban wrote:
| I haven't seen literal protest, but at my old job, there were
| several forums (one public, one pseudo-anonymous). When software
| rollouts didn't go well, there were loud protestations on those
| forums. Examples include new video streaming software botching a
| live event; VPN software that performed inconsistently; and
| business software that made the front-line business workers' jobs
| a lot harder.
|
| No one ever staged a walkout. It was at a company serving
| military members and had many workers from that background... I
| think "stuff sucks" was part of the life. But after sufficient
| complaining, some projects were fast-tracked for improvement and
| frontline buy-in.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| > an adaptation of Epic to the Norwegian Health system
|
| > How bad can something be that users go out in the street to
| demostrate?
|
| I'd have to know more about Epic to judge but I'd like to note
| that these hospital systems can have a major impact on
| productivity and how much money you make per hour. These systems
| are usually really bad, they are usually purchased by hospital
| staff that doesn't have to use the software.
| nmc wrote:
| Students in France protested multiple times at least partly
| against Parcoursup, the government software where high school
| students enter their choices for higher education and get
| selected by universities.
|
| https://www.rfi.fr/en/france/20181204-high-school-protests-c...
|
| > In the past few months, several high school student unions have
| called for protests against recent reforms in France's education
| system.
|
| > They have also been protesting against 'Parcoursup', an online
| government platform designed for selecting students for
| university.
| ilamont wrote:
| Sometimes the "demonstration" is inaction or refusal to use it by
| key staff. I've heard of this in hospitals in the U.S., senior
| doctors refusing to use EMR, databases, or other technology
| because they prefer the old processes.
| etiam wrote:
| Usually that appears to stop at protests that aren't so publicly
| visible, and by smaller cliques of technically sophisticated
| users.
|
| It seems to me that most unsophisticated users tend to view
| software as mysterious and immutable. Something which can not be
| amended and no-one can be held accountable for. They will suffer,
| but mostly without grasping that they could resist.
|
| I'd be happy to be shown wrong I'm wrong for a substantial amount
| of places or cultures.
| dboreham wrote:
| It's that flaming torches and pitchforks moment we always feared
| would come...
|
| The only other time I remember this was when Lars Ulrich showed
| up at the Napster offices in San Mateo.
| sutro wrote:
| https://www.seiu1021.org/article/sfusd-classified-staff-prot...
| PaulHoule wrote:
| There was this
|
| https://www.provokemedia.com/latest/article/the-launch-of-sa...
|
| It has also been said that employees and unions were negative on
| government plans to switch to Linux and off-brand Office software
| in Germany and lobbied to get Microsoft back although I think
| they were more quiet about it.
| soared wrote:
| Old school RuneScape is an mmorpg where each game update goes to
| a vote, and if it doesn't get 75% approval the updates are not
| worked on by devs and don't get released. The community feels a
| strong ownership and connection over the game. So much so that
| when the development company (Jagex) makes a wrong decision, it's
| common for users to "riot" in game. They go to a specific world,
| at a specific town, place down specific items, and chant.
|
| While not rioting in real life, it feels familiar.
|
| Wiki article about an example with a video. Occurred prior to the
| voting system, but still occurs even 15 years later
| https://runescape.wiki/w/Pay_to_PK_Riot
| DiggyJohnson wrote:
| I'm writing a book about Why We Play RuneScape, and the
| evolution of democratic updates is one of my favorite topics.
| armchairhacker wrote:
| Usually I hear bad things about Jagex, I'm surprised they have
| a system in OSR where they don't make changes without user
| approval
| Macha wrote:
| OSR exists to to serve their legacy userbase it feels like,
| who are older and therefore more likely to purchase
| subscriptions (so they feel it's worthwhile from a business
| POV) but also more likely to be put off by the level of
| microtransactions they wanted to put in RS3. So after some
| very vocal criticism, the "by vote only" system was basically
| put in because it was the only way what became the OSR
| community could trust them.
| GiorgioG wrote:
| I would like to demonstrate against a k8s. Sign me up.
| dzikimarian wrote:
| Of course - our dear IE was crowd's favorite:
|
| https://www.theregister.com/2010/02/02/internet_explorer_6_p...
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| An excerpt (hopefully apropos) from Digital Vegan
|
| "Computing choices create real power relationships and enable
| invisible abuse, by exclusion or marginalisation. Computing
| choices probably have a far more profound effect on peoples'
| lives and practices than their choice of friends, religious
| affiliations or sexual preferences. Roughly, according to the
| American Time Use Survey and the 2014 Pew Research Social
| Networking Fact Sheet, we spend on average, 0.5 hours a day in
| prayer and group worship, 0.5 hours engaged in social and
| conversational activities, 0.35 hours in romantic and sexual
| activity and 8.0 hours of screen time, of which 3.0 hours is
| interactive [Pew14]. This places computing, and the choices of
| operating system, applications, and workflows right at the centre
| of a Western adult's life."
|
| Street protests over software does seem a tad odd. But as power
| concentrates in the hands of ever fewer digital oligarchs I
| expect we'll see all sorts of push-back against effective
| mandates and life-patterns foisted upon populations by unelected
| power.
| cameron4 wrote:
| In my industry, several "open letters" have been sent to Autodesk
| for their lack of response to customer requests and seemingly
| basic or common-sense features that have been requested for
| decades:
|
| https://the-nordic-letter.com/
|
| https://archinect.com/news/article/150324438/nordic-architec...
|
| Doubt anyone has marched in protest of Autodesk but sometimes I
| sure feel like doing so
| the_cat_kittles wrote:
| actually joanie lemercier is always posting on twitter about
| autodesk and there have been several demonstrations
| bawolff wrote:
| Maybe not real "demonstrations", but users of popular websites
| tend to riot when ui changes.
|
| On wikipedia, the relationship between editors and devs can often
| be quite tense.
| version_five wrote:
| I've not seen anything as extreme as people in the streets, but
| regularly have seen employee pushback about erp system
| implementations, e.g. SAP. These enterprise systems are are all
| on the back of employees, by which I mean they are forced to take
| the extra time to use them while they are extremely unfriendly to
| the user - because they are bought by execs, and their value is
| not at all apparent to those who use then.
|
| A simple example, imagine you told employees they now had to log
| their time and account for each 15 minutes, and do so through
| some kind of java.swing interface from the 90s that routinely
| screwed up, and they don't get any extra time to do so, and
| they're already busy. Now multiply that by whatever other silly
| management tasks they want you to use the tool for. You'd be
| pissed off too
| xnyan wrote:
| > imagine you told employees they now had to log their time and
| account for each 15 minutes
|
| You don't need to imagine, this is becoming (if it is not
| already) the norm for salaried employees. Maybe not to the 15
| minutes, but hourly accounting is very widespread.
|
| That said, the joke is on the c-suite in this case - almost
| everyone makes it up, or at least guestimates heavily.
| JamesianP wrote:
| The software primarily serves its real customers, the
| executives who subject others to using the software. Seems like
| every field is taken over by these annoying products nowadays,
| which basically try to eliminate some employees and distribute
| the work to other employees (of course the software claims to
| mostly eliminate the work).
|
| As for the 15-minute logging requirement, that may actually be
| part of it, cynically. Since they are cloud-based they can
| track every click, plus constantly time out and require you to
| log in again all day.
| peyton wrote:
| Also compliance. Some other company implements every
| regulation that gets dreamed up.
| brezelgoring wrote:
| My significant other spends the last hour of her day just
| recapitulating and filling timesheets. Nothing else. I eat the
| bad moods this brings every day.
|
| What a waste, 4 different stakeholders need their own
| timesheets filled EXCEPT for her actual direct boss. Yes, she
| works for TCS, how did you know?
| harvey9 wrote:
| Would you be able to post any links to news reports of this?
|
| Hospital software can be shockingly bad. The comments of this
| article on Ars the other day digressed onto the topic, with
| several interesting user perspectives
| https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2022/10/new-t...
|
| Edit: can only find ones which are paywalled
|
| https://www.adressa.no/nyheter/i/0QQv6g/arrangerer-fakkeltog...
|
| https://www.nidaros.no/demonstrerer-mot-helseplattformen-sto...
| Thlom wrote:
| This is mostly a local thing (for now) and most local papers in
| Norway paywall basically everything.
|
| Anyway, it's even worse than a cumbersome software. It's part
| of a digitalization process of Norwegian healthcare. You would
| think that since we basically have one provider, the state,
| they would go for one unified platform? Think again! Norwegian
| healthcare is split up into 4 health corporations which are
| kinda sorta like private corporations. Each one of them have
| run separate processes to acquire a platform of their own. One
| chose Epic and the others chose another provider. So quadruple
| the work to choose and implement the new digital and unified
| journal and probably some extra on top to integrate the
| different providers.
|
| The icing on the cake is that the local municipalities also
| have health services and were expected to use the same platform
| as the local health corporations, but many of them are getting
| cold feet now, so who knows what will happen.
|
| The joys of neoliberalism I guess.
| quijoteuniv wrote:
| Yes, those are paywalled. Here a bunch of news from NRK (Like
| Norwegian BBC)on the project.
| https://www.nrk.no/emne/helseplattformen-1.15838445 and a small
| mention to todays march.
| https://www.nrk.no/trondelag/demonstrerte-mot-helseplattform...
|
| District news starting at aprox 1 minute
| https://www.nrk.no/video/distriktsnyheter-midtnytt_DKTL98101...
| aardvark179 wrote:
| Many complaints and a long standing campaign against software for
| managing post offices in the UK
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56718036. It caused a spate a
| wrongful fraud convictions.
| smallerdemon wrote:
| Having worked in IT supporing doctors, nurses, scientists, and
| academics for the last 23 years, in all honesty, it doesn't
| matter what they would have chosen it would have resulting in a
| percentage of them complaining. Doctors like change that they
| control and understand, such as research leading to new
| treatments and improved patient outcomes. They do NOT like having
| their workflows challenged, though. They have very specific
| prescriptive actions that they live by, and again, they only like
| changing those when it benefits them in some tangible way. EHRs
| benefit their -institutions- in tangible ways, not them. EHRs
| benefit billing, administrative, regulatory departments more than
| they benefit providers... in the eyes of the providers.
|
| I work at an institution made up of components institutions, many
| of which use their own independent EHR systems. What doctors LIKE
| are the ones they get used to in their residency, fellowships,
| and first years in practice. Older doctors coming from paper
| straight to ANY EHR will struggle without extensive assistance
| from their support staff. Nurses rarely get support staff, and
| usually ARE the support staff to a provider in addition to their
| nursing duties. The overall feeling I get, though, is that most
| of them that have used Epic like it. Cerner as well. Some others
| in the institution like Meditech, less so (due to largely archaic
| interfaces dressed up with some more current UI). But Epic and
| Cerner are the big players in the game. There are many, many
| others, and in the end what ends up mattering is the support
| staff for the EHR both local and vendor. One we use has gone to a
| lot of off-shore tier 2 and tier 3 support staff lately, and it
| truly is a struggle in unforeseeable ways (such as terrible
| telecom infrastructure making it often impossible to communicate
| with vendor support staff). They are all focused on new customers
| and growth and then maintaining the customers, and it certainly
| makes you feel like an afterthought as a standing customer.
| conductr wrote:
| I can echo this with about as much time in the industry. I've
| seen it from most angles. As a clinician, they hate change and
| the software is usually clunky and slower than paper. So they
| dislike it. As senior management, when we poll nurses, since
| they have all worked elsewhere recently given turnover is just
| naturally high, they prefer Epic by a wide margin. But they
| still complain and need constant training (turnover,
| implementation specific quirks, and so on). It's very similar
| to an ERP. It's a large complex application that is pretty
| expensive and many people will use and nobody will like.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| > One we use has gone to a lot of off-shore tier 2 and tier 3
| support staff lately
|
| Does the company name begin with an A, before and after?
| quijoteuniv wrote:
| Organizational changes come with resistance in all fields but
| if your doctor & nurses go out in the streets and say : people
| is likely going to die because of this, maybe is time to hear
| out.
| alexpotato wrote:
| Not sure about a physical protest but wasn't there a LOT of
| online commentary etc about algorithms that were showing bias
| when used to making hiring or recruitment decisions?
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-10-17 23:00 UTC)