[HN Gopher] Wait vs. Interrupt Culture ___________________________________________________________________ Wait vs. Interrupt Culture Author : cbracketdash Score : 57 points Date : 2022-10-19 18:53 UTC (4 hours ago) (HTM) web link (benjaminrosshoffman.com) (TXT) w3m dump (benjaminrosshoffman.com) | [deleted] | ISO-morphism wrote: | Related - The Church of Interruption [1]. | | > When people are interrupting each other - when they're | constantly tugging the conversation back and forth between their | preferred directions - then the conversation itself is just a | battle of wills. But when people just put in one thing at a time, | and trust their fellows to only say things that relate to the | thing that came right before - at least, until there's a very | long pause - then you start to see genuine collaboration. | | I think that's the meat of the collaborative conversational | spirit. Interruption/waiting is one axis, another nearly | orthogonal axis is continuation/abandonment of the current topic | which correlates more strongly with actual listening rather than | politeness. | | In terms of [1], I've definitely encountered "civil barkers", who | will never interrupt you verbally (but usually offer increasingly | strong nonverbal cues that they want their turn), then very | weakly link into a new topic. That is to say, waiting isn't a | sufficient (nor I'd say necessary) condition for constructive | conversation. E.g. the Trump/Hillary debate, when asked to say | something nice about each other, Hillary immediately pivoted into | talking about her platform. | | [1] https://sambleckley.com/writing/church-of-interruption.html | drewcoo wrote: | What that Church of Interruption axis is missing is authority | vs freedom | | Refusing to interrupt is cowing to authority. | | Refusing to yield is asserting authority. | | If people feel safe and free to act autonomously and engage in | the best way they see fit, they allow interruptions and they | interrupt. | awestroke wrote: | Refusing to interrupt is to stick to your ideals. Tit-for-tat | does not work against interrupters, and especially against | barkers | JadeNB wrote: | > If people feel safe and free to act autonomously and engage | in the best way they see fit, they allow interruptions and | they interrupt. | | I disagree, and I think a lot of bad feeling and a lot of bad | meetings come out of people assuming that the dynamic that is | comfortable for them is what others always prefer, or is | somehow the natural state of conversation, from which other | dynamics are a flawed aberration. | | I hate being interrupted because of the family dynamic with | which I grew up (ceaseless interruption), and so try very | hard not to interrupt others. When I feel safe that my ideas | will eventually be heard, I _don 't_ interrupt; and, when I | feel safe that I am interacting with my peers as equals, and | will neither hurt feelings nor impose authority, I will | request of others that we have a conversational dynamic where | we don't interrupt one another. | | (The latter is, of course, more dicey, since while I | indisputably have a right not to interrupt others, but don't | have a right to _insist_ others not interrupt me. But, under | the very stringent conditions of conversations with equals | with the understanding that it is OK to say "no" to a | request, I think that it is a reasonable thing to request.) | EGreg wrote: | It's much better to start to interrupt a little and if the person | feels they need to continue they will acknowledge that you | started and continue talking a bit louder. That way you signal | that you have something to retort and they should wrap it up. | Think of it like a continuous curve between 0 and 1, rather than | a jump to exactly 0 or 1. | | In general, in debates where you don't interrupt, people can just | gish gallop all over the place. | | And furthermore, verbal conversations aren't the best way to | solve things. Better to break what you say into written claims, | and each one can have a community upvote arguments for and | against the claim, hyperlinking to other claims. | | Most conversations on social networks are totally useless wastes | of time where people pretend they know more than they do, and | repeat the same thing 3000 other people said in other similar | conversations. And nothing gets solved anyway because they have | no power to do so LMAO | | The older I got the more I realized how much of a waste of time | most activities are, unless you are enjoying yourself or building | something over time, or raising children. Having a conversation | about politics has just as much effect as having one about | astronomy, and you may as well just read wikipedia, to get a far | more balanced and broad view. | 121789 wrote: | your first point is true and works well if you have a good team | or company culture. you have to know when it's not effective, | though. some people or groups will try and dominate | conversations and if you don't adjust and interrupt (usually | loudly), you'll never be heard. | trap_goes_hot wrote: | There isn't a one true way when it comes to humans - which is a | good thing. It would be a shame if the human experience were to | be condensed into a standard operating procedure on how humans | should talk/debate/converse with other humans. | Rayhem wrote: | > It's much better to start to interrupt a little and if the | person feels they need to continue they will acknowledge that | you started and continue talking a bit louder. | | One of my friend groups has established a nose touch as a | similar (though perhaps less...rude) signal. If you have a | point you'd like to make while someone else is speaking, touch | your finger to your nose and keep it there. The speaking party | is expected to relinquish the conversation soon so the nose | toucher can speak their point while it's still relevant. | JadeNB wrote: | > One of my friend groups has established a nose touch as a | similar (though perhaps less...rude) signal. If you have a | point you'd like to make while someone else is speaking, | touch your finger to your nose and keep it there. The | speaking party is expected to relinquish the conversation | soon so the nose toucher can speak their point while it's | still relevant. | | This is a great idea, although of course it relies on | agreement and understanding (of the meaning of the gesture). | Which you have in a friend group, but can't necessarily be | relied upon in, say, a meeting with a large group. | [deleted] | JadeNB wrote: | > It's much better to start to interrupt a little and if the | person feels they need to continue they will acknowledge that | you started and continue talking a bit louder. | | I think absolute pronouncements of what is better or what is | worse will always be wrong for someone. For me, I am perfectly | capable of waiting a moment after speaking to see if someone | wants to respond, and hate having to shout over someone who is | interrupting me "a little". But of course it's as unreasonable | for me to expect other people always to adapt to my preferences | as it is for other people to expect me always to adapt to | theirs. | | Interrupting "a little" also doesn't work if you have an | interrupt-ee who expects just to talk louder, and an interrupt- | er who does not intend to be put off: that can, and in my | experience usually does, just lead to each of them talking a | little louder in turn, until they are both practically | shouting, often without noticing that they're doing so. | Rayhem wrote: | > But of course it's as unreasonable for me to expect other | people always to adapt to my preferences as it is for other | people to expect me always to adapt to theirs. | | I'm actually not quite so sure about this. Admittedly, as a | lifelong member of the waiters, I find "interrupt culture" | incredibly frustrating. But I also think there's a framework | by which we can establish interrupt culture as ostensibly | more rude, even if that's the custom you're used to and | expect. Consider children at recess, all wanting to use the | same toy. The children could | | 1. take the toy from whoever is using now when they want it, | or | | 2. use the toy for a short while before returning it so | someone else can use it. | | You could cast the second a little differently, | | 3. use the toy until they're _done_ with it before returning | it | | Assuming the kids can't simply prevent each other from | playing and there's some moderation effect to ensure other | kids can play at the _next_ recess, both of the "wait | culture" analogies seem less rude than the "interrupt | culture" one. Of course, the toy represents the shared | conversational resource. "The stage," if you will. | | I think the societal trick is, then, not to "learn to adjust | to wait/interrupt culture if you're used to interrupt/wait | culture", but to encourage more mindfulness about using the | shared resource and returning it if others want it. | nordsieck wrote: | IMO, the most effective solution to this problem is to sidestep | the issue altogether by splitting groups so that more people can | talk at the same time. | | It's also much easier to negotiate rules - interrupt vs wait - in | a group size of 2-4 than in one on the order of 20 people. | theonemind wrote: | I speak when I think someone can use what I have to say. If they | interrupt me, I just take it as judgment that they disagree and | stop talking. | | Possibly a post-hoc rationalization because I prefer put my | energy into what I want to say, not fighting bad conversation | flow control. It's just too much of a hassle. | awillen wrote: | I think there's a subtle system that interrupters use (and for | context I am definitely an interrupter, though I very | consciously work to not be one when I'm with non-interrupters). | If I'm speaking and you interrupt, if my expectation is that | your thought is more valuable than mine, I stop and let you go. | If I think my thought is more valuable, I continue. In this | situation, you're doing the same thing. So if we both continue | to talk, each of us is signaling that we think our thought is | more important, but each of us is also taking in the | information that the other thinks their thought is more | important. So if you're still talking after some threshold (and | this is quick, so that's maybe 2-3 seconds), even though I | think my thought is important, it's not 2-3 seconds of | interruption important, ergo your thought is probably more | important, so I cede the metaphorical baton to you. | | That might sound insane to non-interrupters, and even for | interrupters it's a quick, natural assessment, but if you | listen to two interrupters talk for a while, especially about | something they're both passionate about, you can pick up on | what's happening. | | That said, there are also some interrupters who just do not | stop speaking once they've interrupted no matter what. They're | a minority, but they drive me nuts. So it's all relative, I | suppose. | Karellen wrote: | Huh. It's my impression that 2-3 seconds of talking over | someone else is not "quick". To me, that's a long time to | keep going. | | I have a similar thought pattern with who's thoughts are more | valuable - but my perception is that the person butting in | knows what I am saying _and_ what they want to say, whereas I | only know what I 'm saying. Therefore, they are in a much | better position to determine which thought is more valuable, | so my best course of action is probably to pass the baton. | sneak wrote: | I interrupt because sometimes my attention span and memory can be | measured in milliseconds. | | It's a bad habit in the wrong circumstances sometimes. | quickthrower2 wrote: | The cost of interrupting someone is killing their train of | thought. It is not just a politeness thing. | | So like everything it depends on the context. | | Interrupting to keep meetings from getting too long is an | essential skill. Especially with someone who has grown up with | the blab-until-interrupted protocol! | BlargMcLarg wrote: | It's a tradeoff between priorities. Easiest seen in speech vs | writing. | | Speech is on the speaker's flow primarily. Listeners are | expected to keep up not just in vocabulary, but speed among | others. | | Writing is far friendlier to the reader, being able to set | their own pace. | | Interruptions allow listeners to shift the balance at the cost | of potentially destroying the pace. And sometimes destroying | the pace is necessary (e.g. endless discussions). | chrismeller wrote: | Reminds me a lot of this story, which was on HN recently, about | the design of open spaces and how offices get them wrong: | https://www.mtajchert.com/libraries-and-open-spaces/ | | Long story short, a lot of it is just related to the existing | societal norms and expectations of different environments, | similar to the author. | avmich wrote: | It's hard to learn one style, being accustomed to another. | anyoneworks wrote: | Isn't that precisely the point of the entire article? It | literally ends with encouraging you to try the other one. | People don't need encouragement to do easy things. | awillen wrote: | Yeah, I'm an interrupter and it's a tough urge to suppress. | That said, I can and absolutely do suppress it, especially in | meetings with people who I know are not interrupters, so it | definitely frustrates me when there are interrupters who just | make no urge to suppress it. In those cases, I try to use my | interrupting for good - interrupt the interrupter to ask the | very smart but quiet non-interrupters in the room for their | thoughts. | blobbers wrote: | Kind of an interesting take! I definitely know people who find | interruption an offense vs. then others who will just continue | talking rather allow themselves to be interrupted. | Moissanite wrote: | Interruptions as part of the natural flow of conversation can | pass almost unnoticed, when done appropriately. It is interesting | - but mostly frustrating - when people fail at it in a jarring | way which comes across as rude. Sadly my wife is one of those | people, and her cross-cutting interruptions are a habit learned | from her mother. _Sigh_ , mothers-in-law - how distressed I was | to discover the stereotype was so accurate... | | What they miss is that interruptions should be like a "yes, | and..." in improv comedy, not a "yesyesyes, BUT..." | _jal wrote: | I find I can't talk to people who do that. Things don't flow, | they don't work well, and both of us end up frustrated. | | So that ends up being a limit for me, I just choose not to | interact with people like that if I can help it, and | communicating async if I have to. | [deleted] ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-10-19 23:00 UTC)