[HN Gopher] India fines Google $162M for anti-competitive practi... ___________________________________________________________________ India fines Google $162M for anti-competitive practices on Android Author : jmsflknr Score : 179 points Date : 2022-10-20 14:40 UTC (8 hours ago) (HTM) web link (techcrunch.com) (TXT) w3m dump (techcrunch.com) | bl4ck_goku wrote: | Might as well do something about the gambling apps being promoted | in sports and by celebrities. | webmobdev wrote: | The Competition Commission of India, which began investigating | Google several years ago after complaints from local firms, said | in a press release that Google requiring device manufacturers to | pre-install its entire Google Mobile Suite and mandating | prominent placement of those apps "amounts to imposition of | unfair condition on the device manufacturers" and thus was in | "contravention of the provisions of Section 4(2)(a)(i) of the | Act." It also ordered the Android-maker to not offer | any incentives to smartphone makers to exclusively carry its | search services. ... The antitrust watchdog said in | its statement today that device manufacturers should not be | forced to install Google's bouquet of apps and the search giant | should not deny access to its Play Services APIs and monetary and | other incentives to vendors. | | Good. Ensuring monopolies don't crush competition, and creating a | level playing business field is what prevents capitalism from | becoming dysfunctional. | aatharuv wrote: | India really hates big _foreign_ monopolies. The last really | big foreign monopoly to get a place in India, the British East | India Company ended up taking over the country. | KaoruAoiShiho wrote: | Everyone should hate big foreign monopolies. | db1234 wrote: | Check out ONDC https://fortune.com/2022/08/02/why-india-could- | single-handed... | | It's like UPI but for e-commerce. We can expect companies like | Amazon to make noise about this. | [deleted] | CosmicShadow wrote: | These fines are always at least 1 to 2 decimal points too small | for their targets to even care about. Want to hurt them? Fine | them 10% of their yearly revenue, that'll get their attention. | ummonk wrote: | They've also issued a cease and desist order. If Google | continues its anti-competitive behavior, they can slap it with | a much bigger fine. | hiyer wrote: | The amount in rupees is 1337 crores. I wonder if the CCI was | aware of its significance among geeks :-). | sandGorgon wrote: | This is a by-product of a simple thing: Google being the largest | payment system provider in India. | | Google Pay in India is basically CashApp++ . And the govt is | paranoid about the "Big Tech takeover of banking". Which is not | very dissimilar to "Bust Up Big Tech Act". | | Google Pay is pre-installed on every android system. This is | basically a browser war part 2.0. Except for payments. | kylehotchkiss wrote: | Aren't PayTM and PhonePe bigger? | metahost wrote: | Those are insignificant in comparison to Google Pay (or Tez | as it used to be called). | tatpacc wrote: | Here is the link to original order | [https://www.cci.gov.in/antitrust/press-release/details/261/0] | | some experts | | 13. Accordingly, in terms of the provisions of Section 27 of the | Act, the Commission has imposed monetary penalty as well as | issued cease and desist order against Google from indulging in | anti-competitive practices that have been found to be in | contravention of the provisions of Section 4 of the Act. Some of | the measures that were indicated by the Commission are as | follows: | | i. OEMs shall not be restrained from (a) choosing from amongst | Google's proprietary applications to be pre-installed and should | not be forced to pre-install a bouquet of applications, and (b) | deciding the placement of pre-installed apps, on their smart | devices. | | ii. Licensing of Play Store (including Google Play Services) to | OEMs shall not be linked with the requirement of pre-installing | Google search services, Chrome browser, YouTube, Google Maps, | Gmail or any other application of Google. | | iii. Google shall not deny access to its Play Services APIs to | disadvantage OEMs, app developers and its existing or potential | competitors. This would ensure interoperability of apps between | Android OS which complies with compatibility requirements of | Google and Android Forks. By virtue of this remedy, the app | developers would be able to port their apps easily onto Android | forks. | | iv. Google shall not offer any monetary/ other incentives to, or | enter into any arrangement with, OEMs for ensuring exclusivity | for its search services. | | v. Google shall not impose anti-fragmentation obligations on | OEMs, as presently being done under AFA/ ACC. For devices that do | not have Google's proprietary applications pre-installed, OEMs | should be permitted to manufacture/ develop Android forks based | smart devices for themselves. | | vi. Google shall not incentivise or otherwise obligate OEMs for | not selling smart devices based on Android forks. | | vii. Google shall not restrict un-installing of its pre-installed | apps by the users. | | viii. Google shall allow the users, during the initial device | setup, to choose their default search engine for all search entry | points. Users should have the flexibility to easily set as well | as easily change the default settings in their devices, in | minimum steps possible. | | ix. Google shall allow the developers of app stores to distribute | their app stores through Play Store. | syrrim wrote: | Christ, google must be kicking themselves for being so | permissive with android. Unless they impose similar | requirements on apple, this seems like a punishment for being | as permissive as they are. | simion314 wrote: | Apple is not selling iOS to Samsung with extra conditions | like : you should not offer other operating systems or you | should not pre-install our competitors", "you should not make | our apps uninstallable" | | Apple is breaching the rules but in a different way | TheCoelacanth wrote: | iPhone has a tiny market share in India. They probably don't | consider them large enough to be worth regulating. | bradleykingz wrote: | Holy hell, this seems a lot more comprehensive than I'd ever | expected. Good job India. | | I hope this spreads to the rest of the world somehow. The fact | that it's impossible to uninstall YouTube or use Vanced as the | default for YouTube.com links is the bane of my existence. | tatpacc wrote: | As an Indian, unfortunately I don't have much hope. Even if | this is true and somehow got implemented, it has even far | reaching worse outcome for the country. I hope that i am | wrong but see my other comment. | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33278016 | gernb wrote: | Can I have the same for Micrsoft and Apple for both mobile and | desktop? | | For Apple I get it's different since they don't have OEMs | selling Macs/iPhones/iPads but I feel like many similar | restrictions should apply | | Examples: | | > Google shall allow the users, during the initial device | setup, to choose their default search engine for all search | entry points. | | > Google shall not offer any monetary/ other incentives to, or | enter into any arrangement with, OEMs for ensuring exclusivity | for its search services. | | Seems like this should go both ways given the previous one. | | > Google shall allow the developers of app stores to distribute | their app stores through Play Store. | | > Google shall not restrict un-installing of its pre-installed | apps by the users. | | I know Apple has done a better job of this now than in the past | but I can't uninstall the dialer on iOS where as I can on | Android, as just one example still left. I'm pretty sure I can | set the default camera app on Android as well and delete the | built in one though I haven't used android in years so no idea | if that's still a possibility. | | Also, while we're at it. Will any of this apply to Chromebooks? | 2Gkashmiri wrote: | here is my take. | | currently there are all microsoft-y nudge user till they allow | then say "user accepted"... case in point. i have a moto phone | that has stock android. very nice. it has default sms as | "messages". this app keeps nudging me to use "chat features" | and other bs so the "dont use connected features" line is | really small while accept is a big button. they dont want me to | not accept so they keep pushing me. | | same for "play protect". i have decided to not accept it so | every often i install an app it asks me if i want to enable it. | | same for "enable location". i keep my location off so when i | have to use an app, i turn it on and i get a message "for | better experience, tun on device location which uses google | location service". so if i accept this, "google location | accuracy" and "emergency location service" and even wifi | scanning (sometimes) gets enabled so these are really scummy | techniques. | | i use F-droid as my default app store and aurora store to | download apps not on f-droid. haven't signed in to play store | because i don't have a google account. | | these "keep nudging till the user accepts" should be banned as | well. if the user does not want to allow location accuracy, | don't auto enable it. | ocdtrekkie wrote: | Looks like they went way beyond the EU's restrictions. I doubt | Google can do the whole "pay for Play Store by device unless | you agree to install these other apps" workaround. Hopefully | the EU will catch up here and the US will do something similar. | colpabar wrote: | I feel like I see headlines like this all the time. Some | country/government fines some tech giant some large amount of | money. But I always wonder, do these fines ever get paid? | ocdtrekkie wrote: | The fine isn't that key an issue, it's the order to comply | going forwards. Read the comment summarizing what Google is no | longer permitted to do in India. | rarec wrote: | Probably. Otherwise, it wouldn't keep happening. | atdrummond wrote: | Yes. But they're a rounding error for FAANG firms. | riddleronroof wrote: | In other words, Ambani's Reliance co will launch search next | month. | IceWreck wrote: | > ix. Google shall allow the developers of app stores to | distribute their app stores through Play Store. | | This is huge if google follows through | einpoklum wrote: | Not that huge. If, however, phone distributors would start | providing non-Google app download hubs / stores as the default | - _that_ would be more serious. | cudgy wrote: | Anyone know how much net profit Google makes in one year from the | India market in USD? One article states Rs 586.2 crore, but how | to convert to USD? | | https://m.timesofindia.com/business/india-business/google-in... | programmer_dude wrote: | It's 5,593.8 Cr, which is equal to 676.15 million USD. Note: | 676.15 = 5593.8*1e7/82.73/1e6. | mmiyer wrote: | 586.2 Cr is correct for net profit ("The net profit was | higher by about 23.9 per cent at Rs 586.2") which is what the | original commentator said. 5,593.8 Cr is revenue. | programmer_dude wrote: | Uh oh, it seems like I made a mistake. You may be right! | But I am not able to edit my comments now. | codegeek wrote: | That's about $71M USD. (1 Crore = 10,000,000 units). Currently, | 1 USD = 83 INR | | So, 586 crores INR = 5860000000 INR = $71,000,000 USD | | EDIT: It seems like some people are saying the correct number | is not 586 crores but 5k crores which is 10 times more. | swampthinker wrote: | That sounds really low | programmer_dude wrote: | Because it is incorrect. The correct figure is 5,593.8 Cr, | which is equal to 676.15 million USD. Note: 676.15 = | 5593.8*1e7/82.73/1e6. | codegeek wrote: | Not sure. It says Profits, not Revenue. So may be possible | ? | keewee7 wrote: | Good in theory but Google's Android apps and Google forbidding | Indian telcom companies and Chinese smartphone manufactures from | installing adwarecrap has made the ultra-cheap smartphone | experience somewhat tolerable for hundreds of millions of people. | It's all going to be insufferable adware hell from now on. | nmridul wrote: | Except Motorola (now owned by Lenovo and claims closest to | default Android) most of the Chinese phones still come with | their own bloatware. Xiaomi has many default apps including | their own Messaging, file manager, dialer. These come with | their own user agreement and privacy policy. | | Some of these apps are good to have while others are just | bloat. | tatpacc wrote: | other comment mentioning that "Ambani's Reliance co will launch | search next month." is not realistic. I mean even Bing is not | able to capture significant market share of Google after all | these years. | | > Google forbidding Indian telcom companies and Chinese | smartphone manufactures from installing adwarecrap has made the | ultra-cheap smartphone experience somewhat tolerable for | hundreds of millions of people. | | however, this comment is also related to Ambani's Jio | (Subsidiary of Reliance) are planning to launch Android | devices. And mind it, Jio is one of the largest telecom | provider in India with the blessing of ruling party. Jio also | have suits of all kind of applications like chat, payment, | audio streaming like Spotify, and what not, etc. which is less | of utility app and can be use as surveillance system for the | government in the future. | | India is heading towards government system like deadly mix of | Russia in terms of democracy and China in terms of surveillance | system (look at the recent telecom act amendment proposed by | government in last month. Basically it can force any VoIP | services such as WhatsApp to verify user identity.) | | Current government was not approving WhatsApp license for UPI | for years until after WhatsApp decided to invest in Jio | [https://techcrunch.com/2020/06/24/india-approves- | facebooks-5...] At that time few peoples were discussing that | this investment is nothing but to bribe government and/or Jio | to get UPI license. Now WhatsApp got that permission | [https://techcrunch.com/2022/04/13/whatsapp-permitted-to- | exte...] | sremani wrote: | Ah! the whole theory that Reliance is a BJP's poodle. Go back | and look 1986 Cricket World Cup and what is it named.. and .. | you got it right, Reliance Cup. | | The Ambanis are no one's poodles all Indian Politicians are | their poodles. The monumental growth of Reliance from a small | textile company to a petro-chemical behemoth to a huge | conglomerate happened under the rule of Indian National | Congress. | tatpacc wrote: | > The Ambanis are no one's poodles all Indian Politicians | are their poodles. | | I am not denying that. But the way, current government is | working, good luck with current situation improving | anymore. And BJP or Congress or any other party | politicians, especially in India, like to enjoy absolute | control over citizens. So by some miracle if other party | got in power in future then also they will not work to | correct wrong done by current government. | [deleted] | acchow wrote: | > It's all going to be insufferable adware hell from now on. | | Didn't American telecom companies try this? And then the | customers eventually found it all insufferable, so the practice | was canned? | summerlight wrote: | That's mostly because of iOS where Apple has a complete | control over. If the half of the market cannot play with | those garbage, it is much harder to do that for the rest as | well thanks to competition. But AFAIK, iOS has a pretty | minimal presence in India so it's not going to be the same | situation. | danuker wrote: | > adwarecrap | | You mean Google bundling their apps with spyware, then sending | me ads based on the info gathered is not adwarecrap? | sophacles wrote: | Its adware. It's also better than a lot of apps that fall | into the crap category. For instance, maps will show me maps | that are farily accurate. Many of the bundled apps i would | get in the past - verizon maps or whatever - weren't actually | able to do their purported job, just display ads until crash. | sirpunch wrote: | I hope people don't make the assumption that anything that's | not coming from Google is harmful and a potential | adware/malware. People who support Apple's app store monopoly | also use the same logic. Maybe the Indian government needs to | push separate bills prohibiting manufactures from packaging | crapware. But this is a step in the right direction IMO. | cafed00d wrote: | > Maybe the Indian government needs to push separate bills | prohibiting manufactures from packaging crapware | | One person's crapware is another person's batteries-included- | ware. | | We wouldn't want to ban Sony MP3 players from including an | app that plays music, right? | | Similar to how we wouldn't want iPods to be banned from | coming with an in-built Apple Music.app client[1] | | Google's bundled-in variant of an internet browser _may_ be | as harmful as Safari on iOS or, quite formidably[2], Internet | Explorer on Windows. But unless governments can unambiguously | discern whether Chrome is adware/crapware or batteries- | included-software we'd not get much use out of regulation. | | [1] Please don't flame on me with "iPods don't have Apple | Music". What I meant to say is that the on-device application | software that ran on iPods is _identical_ to that running on | macOS, iPhone etc. It's pretty much the exact same music | player code. | | [2] IE bundling into Windows is literally what got Microsoft | branded as anti-competitive by the Justice Dept. in the late | 90s / early 2000s | nmridul wrote: | If Apple ipod is market leader in music player then the | device owner should be able to uninstall the "Apple music" | and install any 3rd party developed music player on it, | this should be OK. | neilpa wrote: | > We wouldn't want to ban Sony MP3 players from including | an app that plays music, right? | | Maybe? There was that time Sony decided to install a | rootkit when you played a CD | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_root | k... | Arainach wrote: | We don't need to assume. We have decades of experience and | data showing that mobile operators will jam phones full of as | much spyware, adware, and experience-ruining garbage as they | are legally and technically able. | lenkite wrote: | Open access will also enable OSS apps. Having alternatives | would be terrific. | gauddasa wrote: | But I've been always disabling (using Android Debug Bridge) | native Google apps (Gmail, Youtube ...) and using alternatives | from F-Droid including apps for phone call and messaging. In | fact, I have avoided signing into Play Store on all androids I | have ever used so far. | 2Gkashmiri wrote: | i don't understand what you are trying to say? | CobrastanJorji wrote: | I read it as "Google having control was bad, but Google had | been using that control to stop very bad things, so in | practical terms this is actually bad news." | 2Gkashmiri wrote: | nah.... sure we will have ad filed stores and all that bs | but that is currently happening on xiaomi and realme phones | anyways.... they have OS level ads and people are fine with | it.... | | i am interested in having F-droid as a respectable store | that has some more polish, aurora-store type features would | be nice things to have. | | and having ability to "delete system apps" that is only | possible on stock android or in my case moto phones | only.... i don't have google crap installed and untill now, | xiaomi/realme/oppo and others couldn't do that even if they | wanted. now they can..... | | think of it this way. W10, w11 has a lot of nonsense but | for technically inclined, there is the debloater so anyone | who is interested can do that and that should happen here | also | asadlionpk wrote: | India following EU to claim a piece of that ad money. | Nextgrid wrote: | I don't mind governments taking ad money even if they were | outright stealing it, because if anything it puts pressure on | companies not to deal with ads at all which would be a net | benefit to society, productivity and mental health worldwide. | | I like having the option of _buying_ products that have nothing | to do with ads - unfortunately in the current situation, | _everything_ has at least some ties to this industry, so | effectively we currently don 't have a choice regardless of | whether we're willing to pay. This kind of pressure will | hopefully change this. | nmridul wrote: | In addition to fine, India is asking Google to open up. | robofanatic wrote: | well, EU claims in billions ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-10-20 23:00 UTC)