[HN Gopher] Hyundai suspending two US suppliers because of child... ___________________________________________________________________ Hyundai suspending two US suppliers because of child labor Author : gumby Score : 356 points Date : 2022-10-22 16:51 UTC (6 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.reuters.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com) | Yoofie wrote: | The thing that gets me is the pathetic "punishments" that these | companies get. $30k fine + some "training programs". Seriously? | | There need to be a minimum 5+ zeroes on top of the fine + jail | time, or nothing will change. | abeppu wrote: | This really awful, but maybe it's also an indicator of the | flattening effects of globalization? | | Not so long ago, the unthinkable thing wouldn't have been child | labor in the supply chain of a big company, but we all would have | expected it to be an American company with Asian manufacturing. | Actually relatively recently, I had an executive from an American | company express to me earnestly that child sweatshop labor helps | grow local economies, and therefore it was misguided to condemn | the practice. But it seemed implicit, in a condescending way, | that that was justifiable for other people in other places. | coinbasetwwa wrote: | dev_tty01 wrote: | >The locals out in Alabama are all drugged out. | | Geez. One visit and you are an expert. Totally off base. | California is ranked 29th in drug use and Alabama is 41st out | of 50 states. | | https://wallethub.com/edu/drug-use-by-state/35150 | such12 wrote: | @dang - the title in editorialized and misleading. The actual | title is: "Korean auto giant Hyundai investigating child labor in | its U.S. supply chain" | | The article only mentions Korean owned suppliers operating in the | US, some directly controlled by Hyundai, which were investigated | by Alabama's state Department of Labor, in coordination with | federal agencies. | phnofive wrote: | Please contact hn@ycombinator.com for Dan and co. As far as I | can tell, they haven't even suspended these suppliers yet. | Noumenon72 wrote: | I think this is a relevant observation, given that it changes | the emotive thrust of the headline from "foreign country has | better standards than our country!" to "our country has good | standards that ensure foreign investors don't end up employing | child labor". | tptacek wrote: | Worth noting that one of these suppliers appears to have been | majority-owned by Hyundai itself. The Hyundai subsidiary | apparently targeted the families of recent immigrants. | eunos wrote: | Waiting for the sanctions... | Pigalowda wrote: | From article | | As Reuters reported, migrant children from Guatemala found | working at SMART Alabama, LLC and SL Alabama had been hired by | recruiting or staffing firms in the region. In a statement to | Reuters this week, Hyundai said it had already stopped relying on | at least one labor recruiting firm that had been hiring for SMART | la64710 wrote: | I hope the right agencies step in to help these kids ... brutal | as it may be it just might be possible that the kids did not | receive any assistance so this (working) was probably their | only way of surviving. | Jolter wrote: | Since they were reported missing to the police, I would | assume that you're right and these kids were trying to | survive on their own for one reason or another. | nonrandomstring wrote: | I don't think it's "whataboutism" to point out that we're | comfortable buying goods made with child labour so long as | they're from another country - and that sets a moral bar for when | it's done closer to home. | | Surely people remember those girls manufacturing Amazon and Apple | products at Foxconn, about 14 years old, who tried to kill | themselves by jumping off the roof, but Foxconn just installed | nets to catch them and bounce them back onto the production line. | | EDIT: I found the entity investigaing the matter [1]. And also | another story indicating that it may have been an internal | whsitleblower who began the trail. | | [1] https://borgenproject.org/labor-exploitation-at-foxconn- | chin... | | [2] https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/undercover- | reporter-... | WastingMyTime89 wrote: | > I don't think it's "whataboutism" to point out that we're | comfortable buying goods made with child labour so long as | they're from another country | | We very much are not. | | Both the USA and especially the EU have stringent laws against | importing goods produced using child labour. Companies put some | serious efforts auditing their suppliers to ensure no child | labour is used and every time they fail it becomes a major | scandal (see Nike as an exemple). | | Actually the reason you know Foxconn employed 14 years old is | because it was a major violation of child labour law and was | widely reported as such. The Chinese state wasn't happy about | that at all. I can assure they didn't go back to the production | lines. | nonrandomstring wrote: | If you're trying to paint a picture of justice and the rule | of law working all according to plan, I don't buy it. | | IIRC it was an undercover documentary I watched. Not sure who | the team who made it were, and cannot find it on YouTube etc | now. But I do not recall it being a labour audit team from | Apple or Amazon. Both of whom I remember initially denied the | claims, and then distanced themselves from Foxconn (while the | story blew-over) before eventually admitting it much later | [1] | | Of course we all know how such inconveniences are spun: it | was an "isolated" incident. A few bad apples. Mistakes were | made. The (scapegoat) managers have been fired. Lessons | learned... etc. | | > I can assure they didn't go back to the production lines. | | On what basis do you make such "assurances"? Because I'm | pretty sure you are wrong. For me, a most stomach churning | aspect of that whole story was the "soft torture" of the poor | kids who were not even able to end their ordeal by suicide. | The anti-suicide nets were the company's response _instead_ | of changing the awful working conditions. | | Quite beyond belief. | | They were designed to catch the workers, who could then be | given "counselling" (presumably advice on what would happen | to their families if they tried that again) and then returned | to work as soon as possible. | | [1] https://www.industryweek.com/talent/labor-employment- | policy/... | WastingMyTime89 wrote: | > If you're trying to paint a picture of justice and the | rule of law working all according to plan, I don't buy it. | | Your original statement was that we, the collective west, | are confortable buying the product of child labour as long | as it happens abroad. This is clearly false. Not only are | we uncomfortable doing so, we find the idea so abhorrent | that we have made it illegal. | | > On what basis do you make such "assurances"? | | The CCP doesn't take people flaunting Chinese laws kindly. | | Also while the issue with underage interns was discovered | during the probe on the suicides, they are unrelated | events. The workers who killed themselves due to | overworking and poor working conditions were all of legal | age. | | Under age workers were provided as month long interns from | vocational schools. Foxconn wasn't checking if they were of | legal ages which made quite a splash. | nonrandomstring wrote: | > Your original statement was that we, the collective | west, are confortable buying the product of child labour | as long as it happens abroad. This is clearly false. | | I don't think it is "clearly false". And you've offered | me no contrary evidence - although I cannot imagine what | that would realistically be or that we can resolve this | difference of opinion by appealing to the stated opinions | of other groups. | | But "we" in this case is undefined. | | There is the "we" of PR executives, corporate lawyers and | politicians, all of whom paint a party line on how "we | are uncomfortable" | | And then there are the tens of millions of people who, | knowing the reality of overseas child labour (through, as | you say yourself, the widely reported news), still go out | and buy an iPhone or Amazon Alexa. | | As far as I know neither Apple nor Amazon's sales were | significantly hit by these revelations. | | There is a vast difference between the world as we wish | it to be, and the world as it really is. I think you | speak more to the former. | WastingMyTime89 wrote: | > I don't think it is "clearly false". And you've offered | me no contrary evidence | | Obviously I have. First I have pointed to you that it is | illegal. Secondly I have mentioned Nike to you. After the | 1996 Life magazine report and the subsequent protest, | they lost millions of dollars of sales and had to work on | the issue significantly in the following years to save | their image. | | You keep torpedoing your own argument yourself anyway by | bringing up all the articles covering the issue which | should show you people care. | | This conversation is over as far as I'm concerned. I'm | impressed by the length you are ready to go to refuse to | simply admit you are wrong. | such12 wrote: | jmclnx wrote: | Well if this is true, seems to be another indicator of the US | Race to the bottom. 40/50 years ago ,this would have been a big | scandal in the US. Since a certain US president in the early 80s, | seems the US has been slowly slipping into third world country | territory. And the massive "defense" spending another indicator | if this. | Waterluvian wrote: | For capitalism to work in the modern era, we need to make an | example out of misbehaving companies every so often. Like... | destroy the company and throw the officers in prison. | | I want shareholders so petrified of their stock suddenly being | worth nothing that they keep the board in check who makes heads | roll when this kind of bullshit is tried. | | Everything less is a tacit acceptance that child labour is fine | as long as you factor the cost into doing business. | dirtyid wrote: | Were they at least paid? | snake_doc wrote: | Forced labor is legal in the US in one case. Where's the outrage? | | https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/2022... | | "Private companies benefit from prison labor by purchasing goods | and services through correctional industries for a lower cost | than they would pay in the private market. Colorado Correctional | Industries, for example, sold goods and services to around 100 | private companies, which generated more than $6.2 million in | revenue for the state correctional industries program in 2020. | Utah Correctional Industries sold goods and services to almost a | thousand private companies, including such major corporations as | 3M Company, Allstate Insurance Company, American Apparel, | American Express, Apple Inc., AT&T Mobility, Costco, Enterprise | Rent- a-Car, FedEx, Frito Lay Inc., Fujifilm North America, Hertz | Corporation, Hewlett-Packard, Hickory Farms, Infiniti Motor | Company, Little Caesars Enterprises, Lowe's, KFC, OfficeMax, | Pepsi-Co, Procter & Gamble, Sara Lee Corporation, T-Mobile, | Verizon, and Xerox Corporation." | | "Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, South | Carolina, and Texas pay zero compensation to incarcerated people | for the vast majority of work assignments." | throwawaysleep wrote: | Outrage at what? Trash people being used for something | productive and covering the cost of dealing with them? | | The only change should be that the prison charges market rate | for their labour. | curiousgeorgio wrote: | If you're incarcerated, you've forfeited a lot of other rights | too. That's by design, and I happen to have the "extreme" | opinion that incarceration _should_ be punishment[1] rather | than a cushy lifestyle. I 100% support forced labor ( _not_ | cruel treatment or abuse) of the incarcerated. | | [1] To clarify: there should be an element of punishment (in | the form of forgone rights), but there's obviously more to it. | seer wrote: | Well I might be out of the loop but wasn't "punishment" | proven to be ineffective in preventing (or correcting) | unwanted behavior. | | No matter how harsh is the punishment there appears to always | be crime. What seems to work is rehabilitation as well as | inevitability of capture. | | So even if it sounds unjust to try to help offenders (even | murderers) If we want them to not offend and not murder | _more_ we need norway style prisons rather than US ones. | | Regardless of what's effective and what is just though, | having prison companies benefit from forced labor is just all | ways of crazy regarding incentives and screws the market soo | much, normal people now need to compete against slaves, the | state / companies now have incentives to there to be _more_ | prisoners which would lead to actually _more_ crime in and | off itself. | | And to top it off, you have big entities that can lobby | (bribe) the government to change laws to the detriment of | society at large. It just sooo messed up. | | And its not some crazy tinfoil hat thing - we can see that | "experiment" play out before our eyes - the US penal system | is so proven to be so ineffective its silly. | TheFreim wrote: | I would generally agree. Just as some people characterize | prison labor as "slavery", with all of the connotations that | word holds when unqualified, I have also seen incarceration | described as "kidnapping". Rather than get bogged down in the | minutia of arguing about words I'd simply posit that there | are moral forms of "kidnapping" and "slavery". | | Locking a murderer in a jail cell is moral, I also see no | issue requiring them to work. | | Where I do see a massive issue is when incarceration is used | by private corporations to enrich themselves rather than | enriching the public or individuals whose harm is what caused | the incarceration in the first place. | | I don't in principle oppose private prisons, though I am wary | of them in practice. I think there could exist a model where | private prisons would be rewarded based on recitivism, but | unfortunately such a system would be hard to create for a | variety of practical considerations. | moistly wrote: | > I also see no issue requiring them to work. | | It takes away a job that someone who is not a criminal | could be doing. | manholio wrote: | In other times it was said that a woman takes away a job | a man might to, or a black man the job a white. You may | want to google the "lump of labor fallacy". | scatters wrote: | How do you compel unfree labor without torture? | moralestapia wrote: | You can get out 10 years from now, or 5 years from now, | your choice. | | Something like that. | scatters wrote: | Then it's not unfree; it's voluntary in return for time | off a sentence. | curiousgeorgio wrote: | Believe it or not, a huge number of incarcerated people | would rather work (without pay) than sit around doing | nothing. For the few that don't, you can certainly | incentivize it without resorting to torture. | scatters wrote: | If they want to do it, it isn't unfree. | | > you can certainly incentivize it without resorting to | torture. | | How? | bombcar wrote: | And in fact, one of the common punishments available to | prison staff is to _bar the prisoner from working_ if | they are getting in fights, etc. | | The prisoners wouldn't mind working for more pay, but | most of them do like it considering the options. | | Another part is just accounting - if the federal | government paid its employees tax free (no fed income | tax) it would work out the same (salaries would drop) but | the accounting would be different and people would | complain. | manholio wrote: | But why not pay them? Perhaps you cannot pay market wages | without a being a competitive capitalist enterprise, but | surely there is a point where access to subsidized labor | allows you to break even, paying them, say $3 or $5 an | hour. | | And perhaps you cannot pay them in cash, but why not | invest the money for the duration of their incarceration, | or pay a stipend to some dependent on the outside, like a | wife/child? A $10k/year rate of savings is above what | many people achieve outside, and a massive boost to get | one's life in order once they get out. | therealdrag0 wrote: | Is it torture when you force kids to do their chores? | Surely there are ways. But regardless don't a lot of | inmates volunteer for work? How much is forced? | scatters wrote: | If it's voluntary it's not unfree, by definition. | | Children are motivated by love, respect and authority. | Convicts are less likely to respond to those. | LadyCailin wrote: | Unless you're handing out life sentences for every little | crime, the point of incarceration _must_ be rehabilitation. | If you fail in that goal, then you're just putting the burden | on future society, when they get back out in some years. Part | of rehabilitation might include punishment, but when you | start with that, rather than rehabilitation, you've already | screwed up your national moral compass. | curiousgeorgio wrote: | Working without monetary compensation is the punishment | part. But work itself _is_ rehabilitating. I can 't think | of a better way to help people feel empowered and able, | preparing them to be positive members of society when | they're released. | meheleventyone wrote: | Then this should be supported by evidence that forced | labor is rehabilitating. Show us it's true if it is. | TheFreim wrote: | > Unless you're handing out life sentences for every little | crime, the point of incarceration must be rehabilitation | | I would take issue with the usage of the words "the point". | There can in fact be multiple ends or goals of | incarceration. Whether you think retributive justice or | rehabilitation should be primary or secondary would be up | for debate, but I primarily mean to say that you don't | necessarily have to pick one or the other in the grand | scheme of things (I'd say you'd also have a sliding scale | of which is more important). | newaccount74 wrote: | Probably the best way to get a prisoner ready for life | after prison is to let them work, pay them a normal salary, | and let them put it in a savings account. | | That way they have enough money for a deposit to rent a | place to live and can cover their expenses for some time | until they find a job. | | If you force them to work, and don't give them money, then | they have no way to start a normal life after prison, will | depend on money from the government in the best case, and | get back to crime in the worst case. | | We need to treat prisoners well. Not just because it's the | morally right thing to do, but also because it's the best | thing we can do if we want a society with low crime rates, | where you can walk through the city at night without being | scared that an ex-convict mugs you because they don't have | any other options. | s1artibartfast wrote: | Possible goals for incarceration are: | | Punishment | | Deterrence | | Rehabilitation | | Protecting the general public | | You can debate the relative merits of each, but | rehabilitation is not the only possible goal. If you lock | up a repeat violent offender for X years without | rehabilitation, the other factors are still relevant. | seventytwo wrote: | All you've done is a set up an incentive structure for the | state or a corporation to shove a maximum amount of people | into forced labor. | Jolter wrote: | Your supposedly "extreme" opinion sounds like a very | mainstream American opinion. If you're implying that many | people really think your opinion is extreme, I think you're | making a straw man argument. | lifeisstillgood wrote: | There is outrage - just not enough | | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal | colechristensen wrote: | I have zero problems with labor being part of a prison | sentence, if done well. | newaccount74 wrote: | Prisoners should be paid for labor at the same rate as they | would be paid outside of prison. The punishment is loss of | freedom, not forced labor. | throwawaysleep wrote: | Sure, but then jack up the fines to account for the cost of | keeping them. | Dylan16807 wrote: | I don't think it's reasonable to fine someone for the | cost of imprisoning them. | | Taking 30% of wages for housing and some for food, maybe. | But not a _fine_. | stachetoverlord wrote: | Should they not also pay for their food and housing, then? | snake_doc wrote: | Most prisoners are charged a per-diem for food and | housing. | | https://www.npr.org/2022/03/04/1084452251/the-vast- | majority-... | therealdrag0 wrote: | I think charging the same rate for labor makes sense so | it's not anti competitive business. But why should the | prisoners pocket all the money when our tax dollars are | housing them? | newaccount74 wrote: | Prisoners did not choose to go to prison, therefore we | can't ask them to pay for the costs of putting them in | prison. Society decides that it is best to lock some | people up; therefore it's also the society that should to | pay the cost of keeping them locked up. | | Prisons are expensive, which is one reason why we should | really only lock up people when there is no other way. If | someone is not a danger to society, we shouldn't lock | them up. | therealdrag0 wrote: | I see your point. Seems pretty subjective either way. For | example, "I didn't choose for my car to be towed so the | cost should be paid by the tower." | | But to some extent maybe it's moot because most prisoners | would never be able to cover the full cost of their stay. | I wonder though if there was a sort of coding-bootcamp- | like profit sharing model with inmates where the gov | tried to maximize their economic productivity they might | end up getting trained for better and more humane jobs, | trades, nursing, coding, winwin. | dchftcs wrote: | Um, you make it sound like prisoners are just helpless | beings that have no agency and are fully passively pushed | into a situation. Society didn't ask the prisoners to | commit crimes either, but they (mostly) did anyway. | Society has no choice but to impose a very unproductive | form of punishment, and needs to find a way to get | something out of it. | | The main reason to be against prison labor is that it | creates perverse incentives to not rehabilitate prisoners | (even though participation in labor may help with the | rehabilitation process). There's also a risk that cheap | prison labor undercuts legitimate businesses. Prisoners | also can't be entrusted with anything outside menial and | low-impact labor, and as a result the amount of | productivity they can offer is really limited. | | But requiring prisoners to work partially for their own | food and shelter in itself shouldn't be that | controversial, especially when they are convicted of | serious crime. | YeBanKo wrote: | Inmates are one of the largest workforce of CalFire when | they need to deal with large forest fires. I don't | CalFire would be able to scale up to the task if they | didn't have this resource. Allegedly it is volunteer- | based and you need to meet certain requirements and take | training to participate. I'd say this kind of work is | above low-impact. | scarface74 wrote: | So which society are you living in? Every statistic shows | that minorities get much harsher sentences, are | represented by an underfunded public defenders office, | are coerced to plea bargain (95%) are harassed more by | police etc. The entire criminal Justice system is corrupt | to the core. | | Let's not even talk about the "War on drugs" that becomes | "treat drug abuse as a medical condition" when it happens | in "rural communities" | meheleventyone wrote: | > Society has no choice but to impose a very unproductive | form of punishment | | No choice? That's pretty laughably untrue and flies in | the face of all the evidence about incarceration being | totally rubbish as a punishment. | dchftcs wrote: | Incarceration is not necessarily effective but what | alternative can you propose, as a scalable form of | punishment? How do you define "totally rubbish"? | erikpukinskis wrote: | Sure, as long as it's a reasonable rate for what they're | getting. I wouldn't pay more than $300/mo to live in a | tiny concrete room with shitty cafeteria food and no | visitors. Maybe less. | therealdrag0 wrote: | Lol that's the daily cost per prisoner :) | [deleted] | s1artibartfast wrote: | Because they have no option to tell their landlord to | fuck off and go somewhere else. | colechristensen wrote: | I'm saying I'm fine with forced labor being part of the | consequences. | | Like if you steal a car, six months working a shitty job | while locked in prison seems appropriate. The money | shouldn't go to you, it should go to defer the cost of | catching, prosecuting, and housing you. | | We even have "community service" which is literally forced | labor for zero compensation, are people unhappy with that? | rhino369 wrote: | >Forced labor is legal in the US in one case. Where's the | outrage? | | That's like saying locking people in camps is legal in the US. | Technical not a lie, but a bit misleading. | | Forced labor as a proportionate punishment for a crime you were | found guilty of by a fair trial is not a problem in my book. We | can talk about safety conditions, perverse incentives, whether | the trials were fair or the punishments were just, etc. But the | fact that we make a murder work 8 hours a day isn't per se some | human rights abuse, in my opinion. | cycomanic wrote: | > >Forced labor is legal in the US in one case. Where's the | outrage? | | > That's like saying locking people in camps is legal in the | US. Technical not a lie, but a bit misleading. | | Actually labour as a punishment is called labour camps, it is | generally frowned upon in the civilized world. | | > Forced labor as a proportionate punishment for a crime you | were found guilty of by a fair trial is not a problem in my | book. | | But the punishment is x years in prison not x years of forced | labour. | rhino369 wrote: | The US certainly isn't the only civilized country to use | penal labor. Regardless, I still wouldn't have a problem | with it (done correctly). | | The average person is forced to work in one way or the | other. Not sure why committing a crime is a get out of work | (and into jail) card. | meheleventyone wrote: | Err... because it incentivises arresting and jailing | vulnerable people in order to provide cheap labor. (done | correctly) is doing a _lot_ of work. | idontpost wrote: | scarface74 wrote: | > Forced labor as a proportionate punishment for a crime you | were found guilty of by a fair trial is not a problem in my | book | | Let's see all of the things wrong packed in that statement: | | 1. Most people in jail aren't "found guilty" of a crime by a | trial at all. Most are pressured by both the DAs and the | state funded Public defender to accept a plea deal. 95% take | a plea deal. | | https://www.themarshallproject.org/2020/11/04/the-truth- | abou... | | 2. Trials are rarely "fair". All of the statistics show that | minorities get harsher sentences for the same arrest. | | https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/publications/racial-d. | .. | | 3. The state has unlimited resources. They rarely give enough | funding to the public defenders office | | https://www.aclu.org/news/criminal-law-reform/if-you-care- | ab... | joecool1029 wrote: | >But the fact that we make a murder work 8 hours a day isn't | per se some human rights abuse, in my opinion. | | Eh, they don't do this with the actually dangerous criminals. | Too much of a risk. Slavery usually used for nonviolent | crims, think drug possession charges. Much easier captive | population. | snake_doc wrote: | > Forced labor as a proportionate punishment for a crime you | were found guilty of by a _fair trial_ is not a problem in my | book. | | 97% of federal and 94% of state convictions are not convicted | through a trial. They are convicted through plea deals. Plea | deals function as the shadow justice system of the U.S. where | prosecutors have overwhelming coercive advantages to shape | the crime and punishment. They play judge and executioner. | | https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/prisons-are-packed- | bec... | bombcar wrote: | And the prisoners can refuse to work, what are they going to | do, throw them in prison prison? | snake_doc wrote: | Yes, refusal to work leads to more punishments that border | on human rights violations. | | > they are required to work or face additional punishment | such as solitary confinement, denial of opportunities to | reduce their sentence, and loss of family visitation, or | the inability to pay for basic life necessities like bath | soap. | iinnPP wrote: | Solitary confinement is already a human rights violation. | It isn't close to the line, it's well over it. | WastingMyTime89 wrote: | Yes, the American system is extremely good at turning short | sentences into long ones for petty things. That's very | profitable for the prison industry. | Jolter wrote: | It's possible to be upset by both of these problems, and act to | abolish both. | colejohnson66 wrote: | Not to mention that people here have complained about prison | labor. It's just not brought up every day, but when it is, | there's comments complaining. | LtWorf wrote: | All the free market lovers never mention how this is literally | against the free market. | guywithahat wrote: | If you think free market economies have a problem with child | labor wait until you read about closed market | socialist/communist economies, they'll kick you out of school | at 10 to work in rice fields | WalterSear wrote: | On the contrary: this is free market end game. A market that | is not for sale is not a free market. | timellis-smith wrote: | Is it? | | I think true free marketers are about fair competition, and | few would argue that legislation is necessary. | | Allowing one company to benefit by illegal behaviour | distorts the market and thus goes against the principles of | free markets. | pbhjpbhj wrote: | Really? "Fair" is not at all a free market concept. | guywithahat wrote: | It's the very definition of a free market concept. The | price the market determines for something is the fair | price, to charge more or less would be unfair to someone | else | Dylan16807 wrote: | I don't know why you got downvoted for that. | | Fair competition is the ideal state for a market to be | in, but a _free_ market is about _unrestricted_ | competition and that can easily turn into monopolies or | cabals. | phpisthebest wrote: | Ok then, highlight all the times where a market has | resulted in a monopoly with out underling government | regulations limiting the ability of new entrants to the | market. | beiller wrote: | I do believe government intervention has many unintended | consequences but I'll take a stab at this. How about | google search? | phpisthebest wrote: | I am a free market lover, and I absolutely reject the idea of | forced, low or no pay prison labor | | I think all prisoners who voluntarily choose to work should | be paid a market wage for their labor. I also think some of | that wage should be used as compensation to the victims of | their crimes. | shagie wrote: | As Labor Pool Shrinks, Prison Time Is Less of a Hiring | Hurdle - | https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/13/business/economy/labor- | ma... | | > Nearly every weekday morning for much of last year, Mr. | Forseth would board a van at the minimum-security prison | outside Madison, Wis., and ride to Stoughton Trailers, | where he and more than a dozen other inmates earned $14 an | hour wiring taillights and building sidewalls for the | company's line of semitrailers. | | > After he was released, Mr. Forseth kept right on working | at Stoughton. But instead of riding in the prison van, he | drives to work in the 2015 Ford Fusion he bought with the | money he saved while incarcerated. | | > Meghen Yeadon, a recruiter for Stoughton, found part of | the solution: a Wisconsin Department of Corrections work- | release program for minimum-security inmates. | | > Work-release programs have often been criticized for | exploiting inmates by forcing them to work grueling jobs | for pay that is often well below minimum wage. But the | Wisconsin program is voluntary, and inmates are paid market | wages. State officials say the program gives inmates a | chance to build up some savings, learn vocational skills | and prepare for life after prison. | bluGill wrote: | While those programs are easy to abuse, it is very | important that someone released from prison has a path to | an honest life. Few places will hire felons, so dumping | someone on the street with no job ensures they turn to | crime, it is the only way they can get food. If they have | a job though you can arrange an apartment and other than | a new place to sleep things seem normal and so they have | a chance. | seventytwo wrote: | Then what you really love is a _regulated_ market. | phpisthebest wrote: | No, I am not sure how you believe forced prison labor for | free or low wages is somehow a "free market" | | The Labor in this context is directly derived from | government criminal codes, thus not disconnecting it from | anything resembling a free market | Natsu wrote: | I think that a lot of people skip over the "except as a | punishment for crime" part in the 13th amendment. I know I did | for a long time until I saw a show where the prison warden was | explaining it: | | > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a | punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly | convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place | subject to their jurisdiction. | verall wrote: | > generated more than $6.2 million in revenue for the state | correctional industries | | Gosh it's so much suffering for such chump change too. Really | sad. | fritztastic wrote: | Privatized incarceration facilities with incentives to keep | people locked up, and influencing the CJ system to maintain | profits is also an issue. There are numerous cases of | businesses doing shady things to pocket more money. | | It is possible to be outraged by all these things at the same | time. No one has to pick between different types of | exploitation and only be mad at one thing. | snake_doc wrote: | I agree in principle. However, as a piece of empirical | evidence, you can peruse the comments in this HN post. | Compare comments that express outrage for child labor and | outrage for forced prison labor. Some HN readers are clearly | picking to not be outraged at the latter. | mlindner wrote: | I'm not sure why people are believing this. This is just China | making up fake charges to offset what they're doing in Xianjing. | lofatdairy wrote: | Is this a troll comment? | | > Following the Reuters report, Alabama's state Department of | Labor, in coordination with federal agencies, began | investigating SMART Alabama. Authorities subsequently launched | a child labor probe at another of Hyundai's regional supplier | plants, Korean-operated SL Alabama, finding children as young | as age 13. | | I can't tell if you're being serious, but you have two comments | both casting doubt on this article so maybe you are. The | article is reporting on investigations conducted by US | authorities, so I suppose you imagine that the US is acting in | the interest of China to weaken its own charges against China? | knaekhoved wrote: | 99% of "child labor" cases in the first world are actually | completely reasonable. I'm glad I was able to break child labor | laws as a kid - it was very helpful for my actual and perceived | level of independence, was a great learning experience, and let | me overcome meager material conditions. | | I think a lot of people here had soft lives as kids and | extrapolate from that experience that kids are too fragile to | handle working or something. | jorblumesea wrote: | >A Reuters investigative report in July documented children, | including a 12-year-old, working at a Hyundai-controlled metal | stamping plant in rural Luverne, Alabama, called SMART Alabama, | LLC. | | > In a statement on Wednesday, SL Alabama said it had taken | "aggressive steps to remedy the situation" as soon it learned a | subcontractor had provided underage workers. | | It's hard to believe no one noticed 12 year olds working in | manufacturing. It would be one thing if they were 17 and this | were some legal technicality. | | Willful violation of the law and a "oops weird" cover up. The | fine will likely be a fraction of the money they saved. | citizenpaul wrote: | >aggressive steps to remedy the situation | | Who wants to bet those aggressive steps will be. | | When our contract with the child labor ends we will put out a | search for a replacement contract company. This time when we | say "CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP Labor on the bid we will specify we | don't mean "Child labor cheap" just regular old undocumented | slave labor cheap. | bombcar wrote: | You might be able to clock 13 year olds from around you, but | are you sure you can do it reliably for the entire world? | maxfurman wrote: | This article exists because Hyundai noticed, no? | delusional wrote: | Reuters investigating and publishing an article isn't what | I'd normally describe as "noticing". That's closer to being | told. | jeffbee wrote: | No, Hyundai noticed _after_ Reuters broke the story based on | police sources four months ago. | tyingq wrote: | They noticed because of escalating local news coverage, | probably: | | _" Reuters first reported on July 22 that allegations | surfaced about SMART's labor practices after a Guatemalan | girl reportedly working at the Hyundai-owned auto supplier | went missing from her family's Alabama home."_ | | https://www.fox6now.com/news/hyundai-subsidiary-allegedly- | us... | jeffbee wrote: | Have you heard of Alabama before? The entire history of the | state is based on importing and exploiting foreign workers. | This is consistent with over 200 years of custom: | | "Reuters learned of underage workers at the Hyundai-owned | supplier following the brief disappearance in February of a | Guatemalan migrant child from her family's home in Alabama. The | girl, who turns 14 this month, and her two brothers, aged 12 | and 15, all worked at the plant earlier this year and weren't | going to school" | _jal wrote: | And modernized slavery in Florida (2002 article): | | https://www.tampabay.com/archive/2002/07/03/slavery-alive- | in... | healthandsafety wrote: | moron4hire wrote: | Incidentally, I was _just_ two days ago in Montgomery, | Alabama at the Equal Justice Initiative 's museum documenting | and memorializing the plight of enslaved people in the | Americas. While not uniquely exploitative amongst all US | states during the 2 century era of the legal slave trade, the | post century of near complete lack of enforcement against the | illegal slave trade, and the post half-century of | transforming the slave trade into the prisoner-slave trade, | this is true. Alabama--along with the other deep-South states | --has been really bad about forced labor. I'd say it's more | like 400 years of custom, with the first 150 years pre-dating | the founding of the US, and the last 50 just being ignored | because it's "only prisoners", with no introspection on just | how those people became prisoners, or why what they did (or | didn't even do) was considered a crime. | dwater wrote: | People in other parts of the US joke about how the deep south | is backwards and give facts like the lack of quality | education as examples, but fail to realize this is | intentional. The working class in the deep south may be | "backwards", but it's not by choice or culture. The people in | power in those states intentionally create conditions that | result in a permanent underclass who have no opportunity | besides selling their manual labor and well-being for | whatever pittance the capitalists deem. Slavery was outlawed | but exploitation wasn't. | orangepurple wrote: | Slavery was never outlawed in the United States of America. | Its government can still fully legally actually enslave | prisoners. | bombcar wrote: | Is there an example of a government that has outlawed | slavery without some sort of exception for prisons, etc? | orangepurple wrote: | Slavery is even legal in the EU according to European | Convention on Human Rights Article 4 Paragraph 3. | | I love subparagraph (d) which is a wonderful catch-all in | case a legal pressure relief valve is needed in the | future to justify god knows what. Article | 4 - Prohibition of slavery and forced labour 1 | No one shall be held in slavery or servitude. | 2 No one shall be required to perform forced or | compulsory labour. 3 For the purpose of this | article the term "forced or compulsory labour" shall not | include: a any work required to be done in | the ordinary course of detention imposed according to the | provisions of Article 5 of this Convention or during | conditional release from such detention; b | any service of a military character or, in case of | conscientious objectors in countries where they are | recognised, service exacted instead of compulsory | military service; c any service exacted in | case of an emergency or calamity threatening the life or | wellbeing of the community; d any work or | service which forms part of normal civic obligations. | willnonya wrote: | kache_ wrote: | the world is a rough place | | there's all kinds of abuse going on, even without the child | labour, in labour intensive jobs. | | man this sucked to read | Animats wrote: | Employee comments about jobs in that stamping plant.[1] Some of | the comments are totally generic and probably fake. The ones that | say twelve hour days for five to seven days a week are probably | real. | | [1] https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Smart-Alabama,-LLC/reviews | jmull wrote: | Here's a link from the article to more information on the child | labor violations: | | https://www.reuters.com/world/us/hyundai-kia-auto-parts-supp... | | (This links to more info.) | | Wow. | | I think the thing that shocks me the most is that the punishment | from the Department of Labor is a very mild slap-on-the-wrist. A | small fine and a promise not to do it any more. This should | basically be the end of that company entirely. Instead they just | have to point the finger at some low-level managers, fire them, | and keep on rolling. I would think criminal charges are warranted | for importing 12 and 13 year-olds for labor. The children can't | consent. That's essentially child slave labor. | | If Hyundai/Kia drops them, that would at least be a much bigger | penalty than the DOL imposed. | legitster wrote: | Part of the problem is that if the DOL goes after every | underage worker in the economy, the biggest offenders by far | would be family businesses and restaurants. | | It's all well and good to make parents send their kids to | school. But at a certain point the punishments can exacerbate | child poverty. | lovich wrote: | Working in a family business is protected. Even working as a | 13-16 year old in some jobs is allowed as long as it's | outside of school hours. We allow for a gradual introduction | into working for children instead of a hard line at 18. | | What is not protected is working in an industrial factory all | day. Hell I had a job at target when I was 17 and I was | allowed to do anything other than operate the trash compactor | as that was heavy machinery. A sweep of factories and other | heavy industry for child labor is not going to exacerbate | child poverty | formerkrogemp wrote: | > Working in a family business is protected. Even working | as a 13-16 year old in some jobs is allowed as long as it's | outside of school hours. We allow for a gradual | introduction into working for children instead of a hard | line at 18. | | Fun fact, tax breaks encourage this as long as you report | the income, then some of the parents' income can be offset | by the income that the child "earns" as that is tax | deductible. Of course this is not financial advice and | consult your own tax professional. | | > What is not protected is working in an industrial factory | all day. Hell I had a job at target when I was 17 and I was | allowed to do anything other than operate the trash | compactor as that was heavy machinery. A sweep of factories | and other heavy industry for child labor is not going to | exacerbate child poverty | | Much of the labor lately in grocery and fast food has been | underage or young workers. | warbler73 wrote: | dataflow wrote: | > The children can't consent. That's essentially child slave | labor. | | Minors can totally consent to labor; it's pretty common too | (see: child actors). The issue with children working in | factories is a (1) safety and (2) exploitation issue, not a | consent issue--in fact even adult parents (who can presumably | consent) aren't allowed to get exemptions for their children in | some high-risk situations either. There are lots of exemptions | for child labor though, especially in areas where safety and | exploitation risks are deemed to be lower. Worth reading: | https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/youthlabor/exemptionsflsa | | Edit to clarify (since some people seem to be reading this | different): this isn't _my_ opinion, support, or opposition on | what I believe children can or should consent to; I 'm just | discussing labor laws here. | largepeepee wrote: | The point of saying children can't consent, is that they | can't do it alone. | | You are just supporting OP's point unwitting. | dataflow wrote: | > The point of saying children can't consent, is that they | can't do it alone. | | Yes they can, for some jobs. Not every job. I don't have a | full list of which ones allow it and which ones don't, but | it's not difficult to infer this if you look up the | relevant laws and regulations, since they sometimes | explicitly mention things like "minors _working until 11 | p.m. on nights before a school day_ are required to have | written parental permission " [1], for instance. | | [1] https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/child-labor | yieldcrv wrote: | an exemption from a child labor _prohibition_ doesn 't equal | consent | | the Department of Labor has an exemption for children | _working in their parents business_ because that 's the only | way they could get the _prohibitions_ passed, since _children | cannot speak for themselves on the matter_ after recognizing | that _children can 't legally consent to anything_ which is | why there are prohibitions on the matter. | | what you are writing is a wild distortion of the concept of | consent, that many people consider dangerous to harbor. | | there is legal consent restrictions (ie. even if someone says | okay, its not valid), as well as societal consent | recognitions such as when power dynamics are not in someone's | favor and some extremes of that we don't allow to happen. | | even for things they are allowed to do autonomously, there | are age restrictions on that. | watwut wrote: | It is parents who consent in case of child actors. And they | end up being abused fairly often (and often by the very same | consenting parents). | tremon wrote: | Can you cite the part where the law says that a minor can | consent to labor? Every mention of "consent" in the link you | gave only mentions "consent by the [minor's] parent or | guardian" or similar phrasing. | dataflow wrote: | It's different across states. You can find a list (probably | non-exhaustive) of where parental consent is required here, | like the night before a school day in some states for | example: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/child-labor | irusensei wrote: | Welcome to current year. Its all good as long as the children | been exploited are not the children of the people who vote for | you. Its all green as long as the coal or oil burning is being | done away from your borders. | danans wrote: | > Welcome to current year. Its all good as long as the | children been exploited are not the children of the people | who vote for you. | | That's been happening forever, not just the current year. | Child labor sweatshops were a major source of industrial | productivity for centuries the world over until relatively | recently. | | Charles Dickens' novels turned it into an adjective in | English bearing his name that described (among other things) | the indifference of those in power to child labor. | blacksqr wrote: | They used the term "current year" because it can be | repeated verbatim any year going back forever. | danans wrote: | That's not an English idiom that I've ever heard or read | before. The lack of a "the" before "current" suggests | it's a translation from a language that does not make | compulsory use of articles. Perhaps it's an idiom in that | language. | anon_123g987 wrote: | I've only ever read this on Hacker News, in the form | "Welcome to _$current_year_! ", where $ is the scalar | sigil in the Perl programming language, indicating that | it's a variable, and should be substituted by the reader | as necessary. | selimthegrim wrote: | Bracketing current year would have made it a little more | comprehensible | danans wrote: | I agree. That would have changed the meaning completely. | Spooky23 wrote: | There's a reason why industry likes to pursue business in | places like Alabama with awful infrastructure and education. | | Expenses for things like conversion of documentation to | pictures instead of text (the workers are functionally | illiterate) are one time, but you can pay someone $13/hr | instead of $25/hr in a less regressive place. | sgtnoodle wrote: | When I worked with some NASA engineers from Alabama, I had | trouble taking them seriously due to their accent! They were | the ones getting stuff done, though. Statistically, Alabama | ranks significantly better than California for both child and | adult literacy. Are you perhaps a bit biased in your opinion | of people from the south? | treeman79 wrote: | Lot of southern areas have massive differences depending on | location. I life in an area that any hipster would love. | Much of the rest of the state is hillbilly as can be. | lupire wrote: | This is a great example of Simpson's Paradox | | Split across racial lines, AL has lower literacy than CA | among each of Whites, Hispanics, and Blacks. | | But because the literacy rate among whites is higher than | Hispanics and Blacks, and Alabama is much more White than | CA, AL's overall literacy rate is higher. | knaekhoved wrote: | Alabama is over 25% black, which doesn't do them any | favors from a simpson's paradox perspective. CA is 40% | hispanic, and hispanics fall in between whites and blacks | on literacy, so I'd expect this to more or less come out | in the wash. | jprd wrote: | oof. Own goal. | octonion wrote: | Not if you include literacy in any language e.g. Spanish or | English. | anon_123g987 wrote: | You are shadowbanned. | grzm wrote: | They're not shadow banned: they were explicitly banned. | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31520597 | jnwatson wrote: | Huntsville had the highest per capita Ph.D for a while due | to operation paperclip. | nootropicat wrote: | >the workers are functionally illiterate | | This is a really bigoted comment that generalizes a whole | state. If it would be racist for any random country, eg. | 'Mexico' or 'Nigeria', why is it ok for an American state? | | (no, I'm not from Alabama). | spoils19 wrote: | Precisely. I've found that people from Alabama are actually | more literate and intelligent than your most common worker | from a blue state, it just depends on which aspects of life | you find more important. | ok_dad wrote: | This isn't a red v blue issue, and we don't need to reply | with tit for tat shaming of the "other side", it's a | shame that any state has child labor or illiteracy. I | have known a lot of smart people from all over, no state | or country is better than another. The differences we | have are cultural, not ability. | | (This comment is in response to this whole train wreck of | a thread.) | gunapologist99 wrote: | > no state or country is better than another | | Even though I agree with the thrust of your argument, I'd | just like to point out that this is provably inaccurate, | depending on which quantifiable axis you're referring to | as "better" (i.e., test scores, IQ, lead in the water, | whatever.) But, if you're just saying "better" == | "humanity", then, sure, I agree with that too. | datavirtue wrote: | Sort of like Amazon's offensive stereotypical framing of | Appalachia in Prehiprial? | | Clearly, no one would ever want to live there. Right, | muffy? | knaekhoved wrote: | Alabama isn't bad because of its infrastructure or education. | Here's a hint: if you condition on demographic | characteristics (i.e. split state populations into obvious | demographic categorizations), educational disparity across | states is almost eliminated. | np- wrote: | Isn't that a pretty good reason why it's bad? Alabama is | massively failing an entire demographic segment of their | society, not even a small segment but something like 40% of | it. That does seem like a massive infrastructure and | education failure. Unless there is a deeper implication | here that I'm missing. | s1artibartfast wrote: | >I would think criminal charges are warranted for importing 12 | and 13 year-olds for labor. | | Is there anything to suggest that they were actually | trafficking humans? I think it is far more likely that they | were illegal immigrants already in the States. | duped wrote: | Their parents were legal migrant workers as far as I have | read. | lupire wrote: | Regardless, employing nonimmigrant children is also a crime. | emodendroket wrote: | I read an article in the New York Times maybe around ten years | ago where some researchers called some labor departments to | report child labor (it wasn't actually happening that they knew | of; the point was to see how they would respond). They were | basically uninterested and didn't follow up. | | In short, I'm less surprised but it is appalling. | sammalloy wrote: | This is apparently a common response. Check out Reveal's | major investigative series on the punitive and profit-driven | rehab industry which depends on unpaid labor. The government | has done virtually nothing about it for 50 years. | | https://revealnews.org/american-rehab/ | hammock wrote: | Unless there is enough behind it to become a viral news story | (a photo, video, a document) there is little incentive for | these authorities to act. | | For this reason, ensuring the freedom of whistleblowers, | Wikileaks and others is so important. Without that, it | becomes much easier for the authorities - which we trust our | rights to - to do nothing and get away with it | lupire wrote: | Government only cares about crime against wealthy property | owners. | treeman79 wrote: | California, Oregon, Illinois clearly do not. As businesses | are fleeing in droves. | faeriechangling wrote: | I'be always wondered why kids can't consent to work but can | consent to school. | [deleted] | s1artibartfast wrote: | They don't have the choice of consenting to school or not. It | is compulsory | knaekhoved wrote: | That is very clearly the GP's entire point. | watwut wrote: | But it failed, because kids don't consent to school. They | don't have to go to school, but the decision is | completely on parents. And when parents decide to | homeschool or unschool, kids have no say either. | [deleted] | [deleted] | decremental wrote: | Kids can't consent to anything. | matthewmacleod wrote: | This is just wrong. There are lots of interesting | discussions about how consent for people under the age of | majority works, in which situations consent applies, and so | on. | | In Alabama, for example, anyone over the age too 14 can | consent to medical treatment. | decremental wrote: | matthewmacleod wrote: | No, you are explicitly wrong - regardless of how much you | might wish otherwise. | | It's fascinating that you then took this directly in what | I can only assume is the current trendy anti-trans | direction, given that this specific bit of law has been | in place since 1975 and has obvious applications in lots | of areas - maybe like ensuring that young people aren't | denied medical treatment due to abusive parents. | decremental wrote: | That explains why this is such a sore subject here. | Because if you believe children cannot consent then it | would be unconscionable to mutilate them. | tomrod wrote: | That's nonsensical and blends legal consent and practical | capacity for decisions. Most 12 year olds can tell you if | they like orange juice with breakfast when asked if they | want some. An affirmation is a consent. | | The 18th birthday is not a magical doorway. | tremon wrote: | _Most 12 year olds can tell you if they like orange juice | with breakfast when asked if they want some_ | | Now who's blending "legal consent and practical capacity | for decisions"? | decremental wrote: | Wanting something is not consent. Kids can want all sorts | of things and that doesn't demonstrate having a capacity | for decision making. | ravenstine wrote: | So all of a sudden a switch flips on in the brain when | you turn 18 that allows one to consent? | BobbyJo wrote: | I think parents point was that being 18 doesn't | demonstrate said capacity either. Some kids are mature | enough to make important decisions at 15, some kids can't | make a good decision if their life depends on it at 25, | so the blanket statements one way or another are | obviously bad. | | We chose an age that made sense to us, because the law | needs an objective anchor point, not a philosophical one. | However, just because the age makes sense to us legally | and socially, doesn't mean it's enshrined in natural law, | and we shouldn't necessarily view it as such. | decremental wrote: | 15 year old brains are not fully developed. No 15 year | old, however brilliant, has the capacity to consent. | Though I agree 18 is an arbitrary cut off and it should | be higher. | | Edit: Below I am replying to the reply to this comment | here because apparently 5 posts in an hour and a half is | enough to trigger rate limiting for me. | | Yes, that is too young to make that decision. You can | throw any hypothetical, emotional situation at this and | the answer will be the same. | throwaway12245 wrote: | Imagine you are 15 and your parents are struggling and | you getting a full time job in the summer and part time | job in during school would keep your younger siblings | fed. That's "too young" to make that decision? | BobbyJo wrote: | All 15 year olds have the capacity to consent depending | on the consequences of what they are consenting to. | Should they be trusted to make life and death decisions | for themselves? No. Should they be trusted to decide | their lunch food? _Mostly_ , yes. | | Do I think _some_ 15 year olds are perfectly capable of | deciding to work? yes. However, I think it 's prudent for | us to ignore those few and assume not, simply because | there is no universal test for competence, and the vast | majority are not. | mklepaczewski wrote: | I don't think this is as clear-cut as you write. I'm not | sure what the law is in other countries, but in Poland, | minors can make transactions, i.e., purchase stuff. This | assumes that minors can consent to certain things. The | burden of making sure that the transaction is fair is on | the adult, and the type and value of the transaction must | be adequate for the minor's age. 7yo can buy bubble gum, | 12yo can purchase a book, and 17yo can purchase $60+ | game. However, if an adult sells $400 laptop to 12yo, the | parents of that 12yo can demand the seller to return the | money to them without returning the product (ideally, | they would return it), or return damaged product. The | rationale is that 12yo cannot correctly handle such a | valuable item, and the seller should've known better. I'm | pretty sure the 12yo would not even need a receipt for | the laptop - after all, the seller might not have given | it to them (of course, some kind of proof would be | needed). | | I assume similar laws exist in other countries, and hence | societies recognize the capacity of minors to consent to | some things. | recursive wrote: | Are you under the impression that only consenting kids are | required to go to school? | lovich wrote: | We still allow slave labor in general in the US[1] and farm | labor for 13 year olds. That's not to defend this practice but | to point out it's not as big an ethical leap for someone | already observing situations close to this and rationalizing it | as just pushing the envelope a bit in their mind. | | [1]see the text of the 13th amendment and how private prisons | operate if you are one of the 10000 today whose just learning | this | lostlogin wrote: | > We still allow slave labor in general in the US[1] | | Also see prison labour. | [deleted] | inetknght wrote: | > _the thing that shocks me the most is that the punishment | from the Department of Labor is a very mild slap-on-the-wrist._ | | What do you expect from the same Department of Labor that | continues to operate in favor of big businesses instead of | actual labor? | kennywinker wrote: | To the casual eye those are two distinct issues. Child labour | is like a child protection thing, and labour protection is | like a commie socialism thing. | | I'm no expert, but these things are historically intertwined. | The fact that we even have laws against child labour is a | product of 1930s labour organizing. | neither_color wrote: | _SL Alabama told Reuters in a statement that a staffing agency | had furnished some employees to the plant who were not old | enough to work there. SL said it had cooperated with | regulators, terminated its relationship with the staffing firm, | agreed to fines and other corrective actions, and replaced the | president of the facility._ | | It sounds like JK USA will rightfully be destroyed by this. If | it really was just a handful of kids employed by a sub sub | contractor I don't see why everyone in the whole factory should | lose their livelihoods. The parents need some counseling and a | stern scaring too but I wouldn't push too hard on a family | desperate enough to send their kids to a factory. | warbler73 wrote: | lettergram wrote: | > The parents need some counseling and a stern scaring too | but I wouldn't push too hard on a family desperate enough to | send their kids to a factory. | | I started mowing lawns at 12. Pretty heavy machinery; massive | spinning blade, could lose an arm! Luckily I had that | opportunity, I was able to make money and pay for clothes. | Learn responsibility, self-respect, etc. | | I do think child labor laws are there to protect children. | However, we don't know the circumstances and I think in | _most_ cases child labor laws do more harm than good. Here | are some important details: | | > In a separate statement on Tuesday, Alabama's state DOL | said it had levied around $35,000 in total in civil penalties | on SL Alabama and JK USA, a temporary labor recruiting firm. | JK USA employed five minors between the ages of 13 and 16 at | the plant, the state DOL said. | | https://www.reuters.com/world/us/hyundai-kia-auto-parts- | supp... | | To me, it could be as simple as a few guys brought their kids | who wanted to make an extra buck. They could have just been | picking up metal scraps. We don't know. What I can say is in | high school I knew multiple people whos family worked in | metal works and the kids would help out and get paid. Some | kids were as young as 10, but everyone was safe and it | appeared to be in everyone's interest | somerandomqaguy wrote: | https://law.justia.com/codes/alabama/2020/title-25/chapter- | 8... | | -------------------------------------- | | (a) No individual under 16 years of age shall be employed, | except in agricultural service, and except as otherwise | provided in this chapter. Any individual 14 or 15 years of | age may be employed outside school hours and during school | vacation periods, so long as the individual is not employed | in, about, or in connection with, any manufacturing or | mechanical establishment, cannery, mill, workshop, | warehouse, or machine shop or in any occupation or place of | employment otherwise prohibited by law. The presence of any | individual under 18 years of age in any restricted business | establishment or restricted occupation shall be prima facie | evidence of his or her employment in the business | establishment or occupation. | | (b)(1) This section does not apply to an individual 14 | years of age or 15 years of age when both of the following | are true: | | a. The individual is enrolled in either a youth pre- | apprenticeship program, youth industry-registry | apprenticeship program, or similar program in which | employment and work-based learning are an integral part of | the course of study. | | b. The program the individual is enrolled in is registered | by the Alabama Office of Apprenticeship. | | (2) This section does not apply to employment procured by | an individual 14 years of age or 15 years of age when the | employment is supervised through the Alabama Department of | Education and approved by the Alabama Department of Labor. | | -------------------------------------------- | | Doesn't sound like those rules were followed. And I assume | that the restrictions is mostly because heavy equipment | like metal presses fail safe like a lawn mower does. | WastingMyTime89 wrote: | Most sane countries in the world allow adolescents to work | some time when school is not on or when doing an | apprenticeship. Most don't legally consider a kid mowing | lawns for a stipend labour. | | There is a pretty major difference between that and doing | work for an auto supplier while being staffed by a temp | agency. | warbler73 wrote: | [deleted] | diordiderot wrote: | The children were trafficked | detaro wrote: | source? | shagie wrote: | https://www.al.com/news/2022/07/alabama-hyundai-supplier- | chi... | | > The story of the children came to light following the | February 3 disappearance of a 14-year-old Guatemalan | migrant child in Alabama, the news service stated. | | > According to Reuters, the child and her two brothers, | aged 12 and 15, all worked for the plant. After the | publicity generated by the February disappearance case, | SMART reportedly dismissed several underage workers, | according to former employees. | | https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exclusive-hyundai- | subsidiar... | | > The girl, who turns 14 this month, and her two | brothers, aged 12 and 15, all worked at the plant earlier | this year and weren't going to school, according to | people familiar with their employment. Their father, | Pedro Tzi, confirmed these people's account in an | interview with Reuters. | | > Police in the Tzi family's adopted hometown of | Enterprise also told Reuters that the girl and her | siblings had worked at SMART. The police, who helped | locate the missing girl, at the time of their search | identified her by name in a public alert. | | ---- | | Trafficked isn't the right word to use for the work (her | disappearance may have been a case of attempted child | trafficking - I haven't found anything yet on the | specifics of the disappearance and it is likely more | difficult because she is a minor). There are, however, | issues with undocumented and poorly documented workers | and their children not getting the proper public and | social services (school for children being part of the | public services). | detaro wrote: | Did you also not register for school because you were | mowing lawns the entire time? Or is that maybe not quite | the same thing as what's described here? | lettergram wrote: | Did I miss something? Was that the case here? | | I personally worked like 20-30 hrs a week and went to | school as well lol | detaro wrote: | From the original reuters report (linked from the | article): | | > _The girl, who turns 14 this month, and her two | brothers, aged 12 and 15, all worked at the plant earlier | this year and weren 't going to school, according to | people familiar with their employment. Their father, | Pedro Tzi, confirmed these people's account in an | interview with Reuters._ | | [...] | | > _Pedro Tzi 's children, who have now enrolled for the | upcoming school term, were among a larger cohort of | underage workers who found jobs at the Hyundai-owned | supplier over the past few years, according to interviews | with a dozen former and current plant employees and labor | recruiters._ | | > _Several of these minors, they said, have foregone | schooling in order to work long shifts at the plant,_ | watwut wrote: | If the company framed it as a homeschool plus internship, | there would be no issue for them. | smileysteve wrote: | > The parents need some counseling and a stern scaring too | | The kids were reported missing to police, which is why they | were found. | nimbius wrote: | controversial opinion but as an american our civil war | concluded in 1865 with a collective surrender of the | confederacy yet no meaningful regime change, which | effectively enshrined a conglomerate of failed antebellum | states which persist to this day as a racist,uneducated, | obese, near dictatorial facsimile of a every modern failed | nation in the underdeveloped world. We just collectively | ignore these fifteen states which regularly fail to provide | even basic public services or interact with other states as a | full member of the union until a mass shooting forces us to | acknowledge their existence on a map. | phpisthebest wrote: | Less of a "controversial opinion" and more of a delusional | rant with no basis in fact, and no supporting evidence to | back any of these statements | vxxzy wrote: | Which states? | moralestapia wrote: | I work on ESG consulting and part of the speech we give is "... | ESG is not only environmental, there's other important areas to | improve like making sure there's no kids working on your company, | blah blah" kind of like a joke and it then triggers more jokes | from the other side like "Oh you got us, time to change our | plans" etc ... and then we never talk about the subject again | because who is going to actually do that, right? Right?! | | Well, color me amazed, TIL there's child labor happening in the | US. | vasco wrote: | ESG is a complete farce in implementation, or at least that's | what I gathered once I learned that a tobacco company like | Altria can have a 79/100 ESG score. | | If there's enough "other stuff" that can bring a company who's | existence causes death and disease as its main impact on | society to 79/100, I don't really care about the scoring | system. | lupire wrote: | Altria's main problem is S, not E or G. | vasco wrote: | Altria's problem is that it exists. | permo-w wrote: | and huge surprise, there are also millions of privately-owned | slaves in prisons across the sad excuse for a modern nation | faeriechangling wrote: | I worked from 12 in a fairly industrial business and mostly | appreciated the experience because I was in poverty. Meanwhile | the school I was _actually_ forced to go to was abusive. | | Of course businesses do this. If nothing else the kids in | poverty are literally going to ask for a part time job and a | few people will say yes because they won't see the harm because | there actually isn't any. | | The only abusive sounding part of this story to me is the kids | were pulled out of school and seemingly working at the factory | all the time. What is surprising here is that it went beyond | "child helps contractor/small business on the weekend and gets | money under the table" and instead "large corporation had full | time child labourer at factory" which is rather extreme by | American standards. But child labour is plenty common, if | you've eaten chocolate recently there's a good chance it was | made with tiny child hands, rich people literally just can't | comprehend such things. | perlgeek wrote: | Forbidding child labor isn't enough on its own, it should | come with enough social support for families that they don't | need to send their kids working. A non-coercive education | system would also be fantastic :-) | creata wrote: | Is that kind of support really possible? Isn't our society | literally built on coercing people to work under threat of | starvation? | lupire wrote: | The entire civilized world provides that support. | creata wrote: | Sincerely: how do you know that? Child labor is illegal, | so I don't know how many families would feel a _need_ for | their children to work if it were legal. | knaekhoved wrote: | Yes, it would be awesome if we lived in a fantasy land. | Unfortunately we need to perform locally feasible | optimizations. | puffoflogic wrote: | > non-coercive education system | | That is an oxymoron given how "education" is currently | defined in the US. The only way this could be achieved is | if the whole system is torn down to absolute zero and | rebuilt as something entirely different. That is, of | course, not possible. | reaperducer wrote: | _TIL there 's child labor happening in the US._ | | It is extremely unusual for this kind of labor abuse to be | carried out by American companies. As the articles note, these | are Korean-owned and Korean-operated companies. | | FTA: "Korean-operated SL Alabama, finding children as young as | age 13." | | There are _hundreds_ of foreign owned and operated factories in | America that are run like independent kingdoms, staffed with | people from other countries with their own restaurants and | dorms so the workers are never exposed to the outside world, so | that the company can put the all important "Made in USA" label | on the product. There's at least one all-Chinese factory | outside of Las Vegas. There was a Chinese-run industrial | marijuana farming operation shut down in Arizona last year. | | And this is not unique to the United States. There are similar | operations in Italy, Germany, and elsewhere. There are multiple | Chinese factories in Italy churning out "Made in Italy" leather | good for the luxury market. | | Lots of newspaper articles about it over the last ten years or | so. | tcmb wrote: | > There are hundreds of foreign owned and operated factories | in America that are run like independent kingdoms, staffed | with people from other countries with their own restaurants | and dorms so the workers are never exposed to the outside | world, | | That doesn't make it ok, does it? What you're describing | sounds a lot like the conditions that migrant workers in | Qatar and Saudi Arabia are working in. | | The US shouldn't tolerate such conditions for workers in | factories on its soil, no matter who operates them and where | the workers are from. | | In fact, no country caring about human rights should. I'm | from Germany and in the early Covid phase in 2020 it became | clear that there are a lot of east European workers in our | slaughterhouses, with them living in very tightly packed | quarters (for which they had to pay exaggerated prices to | their employers) leading to a massive spread of the disease. | At the time, many politicians cried that something will have | to change, but of course nothing happened and the whole thing | was forgotten as quickly as it had come to light. | cinntaile wrote: | What he's saying is that it's only a US company in the | legal sense and that they're not necessarily operated with | "American values". | cinntaile wrote: | Why the downvotes? I'm just paraphrasing what the GP said | because the parent misunderstood. | synu wrote: | I don't think the person you are replying to was saying | child slavery was ok, just adding more info on they | sometimes get away with it. | reaperducer wrote: | _That doesn 't make it ok, does it?_ | | At what point did I say it was OK? You're railing against a | comment that agrees with your position. | tcmb wrote: | I'm sorry if I misinterpreted the thrust of your | argument. The way you pointed out this was a Korean-run | factory and that it was 'extremely unusual' to be carried | out by American companies sounded to me like relativizing | what was (or is) going on here. | pbhjpbhj wrote: | >The US shouldn't tolerate such conditions for workers in | factories on its soil // | | Nor for any company the USA law has reach over. Y'all stop | copyright all around the World, but that protects executive | wages so it's pretty clear where the morals lie here. | | If there's anyone involved in a company, and that person | can reasonable be expected to know human trafficking, or | forced child labour are happening under the auspices of | that company, any where in the World, if those people are | in reach of Western countries extradition agreements then | they should be prosecuted. The companies should be fined a | minimum of a years [recent average] profit, and all execs | fined a minimum of a years wage. | such12 wrote: | hayst4ck wrote: | > run like independent kingdoms, staffed with people from | other countries with their own restaurants and dorms so the | workers are never exposed to the outside world | | I find this incredibly interesting and somewhat surprising, | can you substantiate the scale of this problem a little bit | more, or link 3-5 map locations? | outside1234 wrote: | How do they get visas for the workers for this? | galangalalgol wrote: | And how haven't we jailed the people who got paid off to | not notice this? | moralestapia wrote: | Absolutely, it is impossible for no one to notice this. | | That factory should have a managers at least. They should | be in jail. | ajsnigrutin wrote: | This is the saddest part... from bribes to lobbying | (legal bribes, a true WTF in it's own sense)... | | Criminals are going to bribe, sure, undestandable.. but | people, government employees, who should be working for | 'us', the taxpayers, are taking bribes... the punishment | for them should be a vastly higher than for someone just | offering a bribe... and somehow, (usually) nothing ever | happens to them... maybe someone loses their job, but | that's it. | reaperducer wrote: | These aren't H1B people. Labor and agriculture visas are a | lot easier to come by. | | Or, in some cases, they use illegal labor. I doubt that the | federal government gave a work visa to the 13-year-old in | the article. | ralph84 wrote: | For the ones doing it legally, L visas. For the ones doing | it illegally, B or F visas. | Jolter wrote: | In this case the child seems to have been from Guatemala so | I'm not sure this is exactly the situation you're describing. | reaperducer wrote: | It's not. And I'm not trying to excuse what was done. I'm | merely pointing out that this is a very large and complex | problem. | DrewADesign wrote: | It's probably pretty common in American-owned industries | known to use human trafficking, but trafficking exploits | populations our society isn't concerned enough about to | proactively monitor. The agency Hyundai used for workers is | not Korean- it's Guatemalan- and it likely supplies farms, | food processing plants, and other businesses that need lots | of low end labor. Check out the Frontline documentary on | human trafficking in food processing plants. The worst | offender was an egg processor based in Maine. | | A friend who worked for a union that organized poultry plant | workers said some of these plants- all large, American | companies with names you see in every grocery store-- | essentially ignored labor laws entirely. One actually had a | jail cell in the factory used as a disciplinary measure for | misbehaving employees. | ghufran_syed wrote: | "One actually had a jail cell in the factory used as a | disciplinary measure for misbehaving employees." | | This seems like a fairly easy thing for the media (or the | union) to expose - so is there any evidence this is true? | Seems more likely to be union FUD if the union doesn't | expose the evidence | DrewADesign wrote: | Public evidence? No. Do you have public evidence of | everything your proven trustworthy friends tell you? | Luckily, my anecdote isn't supporting a legal action or | news story. | | He said the union absolutely used it to pressure | management into a more favorable stance towards | Unionization, and the plant is now unionized. | lupire wrote: | Your anecdote is supporting a forum post that you expect | readers to believe is true. It's a news story. | DrewADesign wrote: | Good lord. Get a hobby. | phpisthebest wrote: | I am amazed. Having worked in and around US Manufacturing | plants my entire adult life, I have never once even see anyone | that could be considered a child working in any plant I have | ever been in, and I have been in alot of manufacturers. All of | owned by American entities and people. | | ESG is not needed to not have child labor. | mlindner wrote: | There's no child labor happening in the US... | gumby wrote: | > Well, color me amazed, TIL there's child labor happening in | the US. | | Not all of it is illegal. There is an exception for tobacco | farming, which employs children as young as 10. | | https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/06/child-lab... | | https://www.hrw.org/report/2015/12/09/teens-tobacco-fields/c... | bombcar wrote: | There are tons of exceptions to child labor laws - or child | actors couldn't exist. | | It varies from state to state and industry to industry. | | And if they're unpaid then you have much more leeway! | patientplatypus wrote: | legitster wrote: | I'd really like to know more about the "oppressive" part. Were | these 12 year olds lying about their age to get a summer job? Or | were these children getting pimped by a staffing firm? | | I think there should be a _huge_ divergence of punishment options | based on the actual details. | guywithahat wrote: | Yeah I wonder if the Dad was a manager so he put his son to | work or something. They said these were "documented" citizens | which I assume means they're not illegal child immigrants. The | only other thing we know is that most of these factories were | set up by Koreans companies, so they're probably not super | small mom and pop shops. The fact they didn't go more in depth | into their situation makes me wonder if it's because it goes | contrary to the narrative, I know Reuters has a habit of doing | that | Ekaros wrote: | Disgusting that we are trading with country that uses child | labour... We really should sanction them until provably they have | solved this and slavery issue. | such12 wrote: | serf wrote: | I don't really even get who that joke is poking at -- not the | US presumably; there is _plenty_ of record of U.S. companies | being indifferent to poor labor conditions without a | sanctioning reaction. | eunos wrote: | But US Government seems hellbent to sanction all of them. | jrochkind1 wrote: | You realize that country is the USA? I'm not sure if you were | being sarcastic or what. | comte7092 wrote: | 100% that was sarcasm | Jolter wrote: | Presumably GP is not American. | neither_color wrote: | Counter point: It's a good thing this factory was on US soil | allowing the US DoL to do its job. Imagine how many cases of | "staffing firms for a sub contractor hiring teenagers" goes | unnoticed and unpunished around the world. | bombcar wrote: | 14 year olds can legally work at McDonalds in some states, | subject to restrictions. | [deleted] | pagade wrote: | Reminds me of this: | https://twitter.com/chaitex/status/1583118970089263104 | gumby wrote: | I assume you are not in the USA, talking about trading with the | USA? | | Child labor is perfectly legal in other US industries, like | tobacco production. | greggeter wrote: ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-10-22 23:00 UTC)