[HN Gopher] My thoughts on the Framework laptop (from a professi... ___________________________________________________________________ My thoughts on the Framework laptop (from a professional kernel developer) Author : kelvie Score : 72 points Date : 2022-10-24 20:22 UTC (2 hours ago) (HTM) web link (ruscur.au) (TXT) w3m dump (ruscur.au) | javajosh wrote: | Hmm. Maybe the issue is with the factory install process or I | lucked out and picked the right distro because I'm super happy, | surprisingly so, with Ubuntu 22. It was the first time in a LONG | time I've done my own OS install, so I was a little worried, but | I made it a relaxing, non-rushed experience making the USB stick | on another computer. I've done no tweaking to the OS and | its...great. And by great I mean "I don't really think about the | OS and sometimes I forget I'm in Ubuntu". | | Of course, there are some quirks. The thing seems to leak power | while suspended - but the work around is to shutdown, since it | boots in ~5 seconds anyway! The fingerprint reader on the power | button doesn't work, but that's not something I would really use | anyway. Snap seems to be broken in ways I don't understand, | because it periodically prompts me to do the same thing over and | over and never seems to succeed. That seems more like an Ubuntu | problem - like, ditch snap, whatever it is. | danudey wrote: | Did you get the 11th gen or the 12th gen? The 11th gen | experience is largely free of issues (after a few BIOS | updates), but the 12th gen experience is composed almost | entirely of them. | nikodunk wrote: | I develop using an 11th gen Framework and have run into none of | the issues that this person talked about full-time on Fedora for | a year. Must be only the 12th gen that has these issues. | hifikuno wrote: | I believe he says that his issues stem from the fact he is | using a 12th-gen cpu. At the end of the article he mentions | trying to get an 11th-gen if you can as that won't have the | issues and will be slightly cheaper. | nikodunk wrote: | Ah yes! I did read this but my comment was misleading. | Corrected. | skybrian wrote: | I'm hopeful that the Chromebook edition works out. People who | want things to "just work" can run that. By the time Chrome OS | support expires, hopefully Linux distros will have pretty | polished device support. | yjftsjthsd-h wrote: | It's the same kernel driving the same hardware, why would it be | any different? | postpawl wrote: | > objectively incorrect choice of a Ctrl/Fn/Super/Alt layout | instead of Fn/Ctrl/Super/Alt | | That can be switched in bios. | | I haven't had any WiFi issues on Ubuntu that require turning it | off and back on. The author seems to be using arch. | jgtrosh wrote: | I am so riled against Fn/Ctrl (I use Ctrl way more than Fn and | my pinkey finds the corner easily) that I honestly didn't know | some hackers prefer it that way round | mr_sturd wrote: | Yes! Ctrl+Shift+B is probably my most used keystroke and it's | not fluid at all with Lenovo's default Fn placement. | kramerger wrote: | I wish we could choose one layout and then keep to it. | | I mean, I am all open to an EU law here and I'm an not even | joking. | | Update: calm down, I only meant the Fn and Ctrl positions :) | Xeamek wrote: | That's still bad, at this point there are equally as many | ctrl-fn fanatics, as fn-ctrl. | | Option to adjust them in bios is perfect solution | JimBlackwood wrote: | Why a BIOS option? I don't see why laptop keyboards can't | just ship with programmable firmwares. | | I think ZSA is showing with their Oryx GUI just how easy it | can be for an end user. | danudey wrote: | I'm assuming I'm not understanding you properly, but are | you suggesting that flashing a custom firmware is an | easier solution than changing an option in the BIOS? | taeric wrote: | I don't know if I want to switch back to qwerty, at this | point. :D | orangepurple wrote: | There are only a handful of mainstream keyboard layouts. | Mostly ISO and ANSI. | chrisseaton wrote: | > There are only a handful of mainstream keyboard layouts. | Mostly ISO and ANSI. | | You've got to be joking? Not even all my Macs have the same | keyboard, let alone looking at Windows laptops. | pdonis wrote: | My deal breaker for a Framework laptop is the Intel CPU. | danudey wrote: | I'll admit that after reading about the train wreck that is | Intel's Linux support for their 12th gen platform, my first | thought was "ooh, maybe Ryzen frameworks next". | | The (other) dream would be an Apple M1/M2-comparable ARM CPU, | but I don't think those even exist, let alone are feasible for | a consumer laptop. | | Fingers crossed. | newaccount2021 wrote: | Why do I have to buy the DIY Edition to get a Linux laptop? I | don't want to build a laptop, and I don't want Windows. | halefx wrote: | Mostly because there is no one "Linux" OS, there are many. | girvo wrote: | Sure. Send me the completed device and I'll install the OS. | Iridescent_ wrote: | The "build" part is really just installing the SSD and RAM, | which has been extremely easy even as a novice in terms of | hardware thanks to how well-built the Framework is + | installation manual available online. Do not let the "DIY" part | scare you. | ccooffee wrote: | Personally, I found the "DIY" edition to be great. It was | REALLY easy (probably took me 10 minutes, but could be done | under 2 with practice), and by needing to "assemble" the | product myself, I got much more comfortable opening it up. | | Since getting my OG framework, I've needed to open the case a | couple times to clean the keyboard, which isn't something | I've ever felt safe doing with previous laptops. | newaccount2021 wrote: | eduction wrote: | The money quote IMO: | | "I genuinely think the out-of-box experience of the Framework | laptop is worse than anything I've ever seen in over a decade of | Lenovo laptops. " | | He does say he likes the laptop and doesn't think the issues he | hit with 12th gen Intel should keep you from buying an 11th gen | Framework. | | On the other hand he's been a kernel dev for seven years and had | to spend "ages debugging including building my own kernels with | additional debugging as well as trying different firmware | versions before giving up." He had issues with wifi, power | management, brightness control, the GPU, "and my computer is | locking up constantly." Oy. | 1970-01-01 wrote: | "In the last 7 years of that time I've been a full-time Linux | kernel developer. If I'm complaining about the amount of effort | it took to make this laptop functional, then the average user | is boned." | | Same song and dance since 2006. Great only if you have no money | and lots of time to learn and experiment. | Foxboron wrote: | Frankly, I got a Lenovo T14 Gen 3, 12th gen Intel. | | It's the worst laptop I've had in a decade. | | They spent 6 months fixing an issue where two internal DP ports | where visible to the driver which caused the kernel to not | survive a suspend. The issue is with the Tigerlake reference | design, and a _lot_ of companies will need to push firmware | updates to get things sorted out. | | This is the upstream driver issue: | https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/intel/-/issues/5531#note_... | | Lenovo forum thread: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Other-Linux- | Discussions/Thinkpa... | | EDIT: | | I realized I'm typing this on the 11th gen Framework I own. | While the Lenovo laptop is somewhere behind my couch, I think. | awinter-py wrote: | > My first Year Of The Linux Desktop was 2007 and I've lived | through every Year Of The Linux Desktop since | | yes | Rebelgecko wrote: | Agree with a lot of these points. It's wild to me that the | brightness keys are nonfunctional (unless you sacrifice the | ambient light sensor) and there's no ETA on a fix. Random freezes | and graphical issues aren't fun either. | | Another annoyance is weird handling of non-integer scaling on | Linux. It's not _great_ on Windows, but I don 't need to dig into | config files for most apps or use one off launch arguments. | kelvie wrote: | Yeah, as another fairly technical Framework owner, my | experience was basically 100% the same as the author's. | | Are you on wayland? This is my first wayland experience (if you | don't count the Steam Deck), and it was mostly seamless _only_ | after upgrading to the latest KDE, which disables scaling for | Xwayland programs. | | Firefox still requires a janky workaround for wayland though, | but as I understand it, wayland-based setups depend strongly on | what the compositor implements (in my case, Kwin I think). | abeisgreat wrote: | My two cents as a Linux based developer - my 11th gen Framework | has been largely fantastic. There was some annoying BIOS issues | but they pushed a fix, there was bad battery life, but they | pushed a fix. | | Overall it feels like an indie device still, but I'd take that | over the mass production walled garden nonsense of competing | machines. I feel like I own this device more than any other | recent electronic purchases other than perhaps my Raspberry Pis. | curt15 wrote: | "There's a lot of "don't blame Framework, blame Intel" sentiment | in that thread, and while it's absolutely true that it's a flaw | in Intel's driver for Intel's hardware, that doesn't matter a | whole lot to someone who's just spent a thousand dollars on a | laptop that advertises strong Linux support. Framework is both | lifted up and brought down by the many contributing parts of the | Linux ecosystem, credit can't only be given for the positives." | | This. When my Mac has GPU problems, I don't complain to NVIDIA or | AMD; I complain to Apple. Since Apple is the final integrator, it | has the ultimate responsibility for ensuring that all parts work | well together. | | Similarly, whenever a laptop is advertised by its manufacturer as | "linux compatible" or "linux certified", it is their job to | ensure that linux actually works out of the box. | akvadrako wrote: | _> Advertised strong Linux support_ | | ? I looked at framework laptops and as far as I could see there | is zero official Linux support. There are some community forums | for it, but no warranty if something doesn 't work or | officially support distributions or anything. | awinter-py wrote: | https://frame.work/laptop-12-gen-intel | | > Available in configurations with Windows 11 Home and Pro, | we've also tested for compatibility with the most popular | Linux distributions and written step-by-step setup guides for | them. | | that links to https://frame.work/linux | | > We designed the Framework Laptop from the outset to be a | great Linux laptop | | > We deliberately selected components and modules that didn't | require new kernel driver development and have been providing | distro maintainers with pre-release hardware to test to | improve compatibility | | > We and members of the Framework Community Linux sub-forum | have been testing a range of Linux distributions for | compatibility with the Framework Laptop to highlight the ones | that work best | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | > When my Mac has GPU problems, I don't complain to NVIDIA or | AMD; I complain to Apple. | | Does Apple actually do anything? I see plenty of people | complain to Apple and it falls on deaf ears. | caboteria wrote: | "don't blame Framework, blame Intel" is a false dichotomy: it's | OK to blame both at the same time. | nomel wrote: | > it's OK to blame both at the same time. | | You either do compatibility testing, and frame the marketing | around the truth, or you have pissed off customers. There's | not really an alternative in the hardware world. The logo on | the exterior of the product is who they'll, rightfully, | blame. | pmontra wrote: | People usually blame the manufacturer they paid the money to. | In this case Framework could have chosen AMD or tested with | Linux or stated that Linux is unsupported on 12th gen Intel | or... There are so many possibilities. | otikik wrote: | Indeed. Few things in life are free. Blaming others is free | _and free of consequences_. | robertlagrant wrote: | > If you're Framework, please just hire a dedicated Linux person, | preferably a kernel developer. | | Cathartic rant, or best cover letter ever? | znpy wrote: | I guess i dodged a bullet by not getting a framework laptop and | getting second hand thinkpad again. Oh well. | math-dev wrote: | I just bought a Lenovo laptop and wiped Windows off it / | installed Linux for the first time. | | As largely a newcomer to Linux, it was very smooth. Had some | issues getting the wifi to work, but once that got resolved, | everything has been super smooth. I must admit there is a bit of | a learning curve, i didn't fully appreciate the differences | between the various distributions. | | Shame that an indie company who is actively selling linux | machines, can't have them working off the bat. That's | unacceptable | RosanaAnaDana wrote: | Any one here able to offer a comparative on Framework versus | System76? | | I pulled the trigger on a system 76 and I've been disappointed. I | really want to support this Linux first movement, but I need | something that's a daily driver that just works. | | Has any one used both? ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-10-24 23:00 UTC)