[HN Gopher] Tesla faces U.S. criminal probe over self-driving cl... ___________________________________________________________________ Tesla faces U.S. criminal probe over self-driving claims Author : brandall10 Score : 217 points Date : 2022-10-26 19:44 UTC (3 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.reuters.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com) | wilg wrote: | I don't understand why Elon claiming that the cars will be able | to drive themselves in the future could be considered any kind of | crime? I don't think Tesla has ever said "hey you can get in the | car today and it is fully autonomous". They've just said that's | what they will do in the future. They've also shown and talked | about products in-development. | | You might think they are full of shit about whether it will ever | be delivered, which is a fair argument, but that's much different | than lying about the actual product in people's hands. | mike_d wrote: | It is a crime because he is collecting money for it now. | | At the minimum it is a violation of the "30 day rule." If you | accept money for a preorder of something, you must clearly | state a delivery date. If you do not, it is assumed within 30 | days of an order. | | Tesla can face FTC fines of $16,000 per Autopilot sale, in | addition to lawsuits from consumer protection agencies in every | state where a vehicle was sold with the undelivered feature. | | This is why all the crowdfunding platforms are basically | donations with "rewards" of products and not preorders. | wilg wrote: | This is interesting and very specific. I would think that if | this applied it would be quite open-and-shut, and handled by | the FTC directly. So my guess is it does not apply. Perhaps | because it is not "merchandise"? | mike_d wrote: | I believe the lack of enforcement action is because FTC is | understaffed for the amount of stuff under their purview, | combined with the fact that not enough defrauded consumers | know they need to file complaints. | | https://www.ftc.gov/media/71268 | AlexandrB wrote: | They allowed you to buy the "car can drive itself" capability | and never fully delivered. It's not like this was just a | promise, it was something you could pay for _years ago_. | wilg wrote: | Yeah, but that isn't a crime. You can pre-order things. They | still claim they will deliver it. Seems like maybe you could | do a class-action or something to get your money back, but | not argue that actually it was reasonable to believe you | already had it and therefore are not liable for a crash or | whatever. | mike_d wrote: | > Yeah, but that isn't a crime. You can pre-order things. | | It actually is. When accepting a preorder you have to | provide a fixed delivery date, or it is assumed to be no | later than 30 days after sale (or 50 days if you offer in- | house financing). The fraud case here is actually very | straightforward. | | https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/business- | gui... | AlexandrB wrote: | IANAL but I think you could call it fraud if you never had | any intention of delivering. E.g. if I kickstart a | perpetual motion machine and then move to the Bahamas with | the funds. | | What's ironic is that despite his image as a genius no one | ever holds Elon to account for his failure to accurately | predict the state/progress of his own technology. He's | either not as smart as people think or he's knowingly | lying, but I think you have to pick one. | wilg wrote: | Seems like since they are delivering things, albeit | slowly, and spending tons of money developing it, that it | would be hard to make that stick. | AlexandrB wrote: | Yeah, probably true. | fasthands9 wrote: | Their marketing has lots of videos where they tout self-driving | (calling it full self-driving or Autopilot) without any | clarification it is a future promise. And then there is a | feature on your Tesla called Autopilot you can click one | | I know if you are in the weeds you know the capabilities - but | I think most people get the impression it can drive itself and | its safe. And that impression is a direct result from marketing | materials. Given the severity of car accidents it seems | reasonable to be strict on these marketing claims, even if they | call it a "beta" in the fine-print. | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlThdr3O5Qo | klyrs wrote: | It's the claims he makes about the present that are a problem. | Also, when he's selling "beta" access with the expectation that | "release" access will be more expensive and a neverending | promise of "this year" and "next year", that sounds like | reasonably clear-cut fraud to me. | wilg wrote: | I am not sure there are any actual claims about the present | that would lead a reasonable person to conclude their car | currently has features that it does not. | | I don't think it's anywhere near clear-cut fraud to say "you | can pre-order this for a cheaper price" and to be wrong about | your deadline estimates. Yes, if it never comes out or there | is evidence they never even tried to make good on the offer, | then you would be open to some kind of legal action. But | clearly they are trying. If a bunch of owners want to try to | argue that the timeline was promised and missed and do a | class action to get their money back, that seems reasonable | enough. But none of this seems to relate to actual safety | issues or anything. | mike_d wrote: | See my comment upthread. If you accept a preorder you must | offer a firm delivery date. If you cannot make that date, | your only option under the law is a refund. You can't push | the date back. | filoleg wrote: | How do Kickstarter and early access games sold on Steam | function in that magic universe where "if you accept a | preorder, you must offer a firm delivery date"? | | As far as I can tell, there aren't droves of Kickstarter | campaigns that keep getting sued or prosecuted on regular | just for perpetually delaying their delivery dates (often | for years). | wilg wrote: | > Kickstarter and other crowdfunding platforms are framed | as donations. | | I don't see any evidence of this on the Kickstarter | website. | | > Steam Early Access allows you to request a full refund | at any point up until the actual launch of the game | | This is not true. They are considered normal purchases. | mike_d wrote: | Look closer, you'll see it says "Pledge" instead of "Buy | Now" or similar language. You also receive a "Reward" if | the project is successful. | | https://store.steampowered.com/steam_refunds/ You may | need to go back and forth with support to get a refund, | but Early Access is ultimately covered under the pre- | purchase terms. | klyrs wrote: | Are these non-released steam games killing people? | filoleg wrote: | They don't, just like the non-released FSD doesn't, | because it isn't available yet. | | The original claim I replied to was talking about the | possibility of Tesla getting sued for delaying multiple | times the release of a product that's in active | development (and thus being unavailable). I don't see how | the discussion about a product that the public has no | access to "killing people" is relevant at all. | wilg wrote: | > Are these non-released steam games killing people? | | This isn't relevant to the law! But also by the same | argument how is a non-released self-driving product | killing people? | mike_d wrote: | Kickstarter and other crowdfunding platforms are framed | as donations. | | Steam Early Access allows you to request a full refund at | any point up until the actual launch of the game (and | then 14 days after based on the standard refund policy), | even if you have played it extensively. | dmitrygr wrote: | > why Elon claiming [...] could be considered any kind of | crime? | | Among many other reasons, if he knows it to be false but states | it as is true, this is market manipulation | phire wrote: | The probe isn't about the future "full self driving" product. | | It's about the current "autopilot" product, or more | importantly, the marketing around it. They are investigating if | Tesla deliberately oversold the capabilities of autopilot, | implying that can do far more than it actually can. | | Basically: are Tesla criminally responsible for customers who | misunderstood what autopilot was, and then didn't correctly | supervise the autopilot and ended up in accidents? | | Though the fact that Tesla/Musk were continually talking about | the FSD features will play into the probe, but only because | customers might have confused things said about the future FSD | feature, for the capabilities of the current system. But only | if Tesla deliberately encouraged or knew about this confusion | (or should have known) | tptacek wrote: | If Tesla knowingly makes material false claims about what their | cars can do, especially if they have internal evidence that | people are using the feature dangerously in ways Tesla could | have prevented, they're perpetrating fraud. | | Most frauds are prosecuted in state court. There are several | federal fraud statutes. For instance, wire fraud, which is any | interstate fraud that uses telecommunications, has the | following (paraphrased) predicates in the model jury | instructions: | | (1) You knowingly took part in a scheme to deceive people. | | (2) The lies you told were material and caused people to spend | money or give up property. | | (3) You had an intent to cheat people out of money. | | (4) You used some form of interstate telecommunications as part | of the scheme. | | Prosecutors don't have to prove that Tesla says "the car is | fully autonomous today". They just have to prove that Tesla | made statements that it knew weren't true, in order to get | people to buy cars or Tesla stock. Those statements can be much | narrower than "we have achieved full FSD", so long as they are | material: that is, so long as they're significant enough to | influence people's purchasing decisions. | wilg wrote: | Sure, I just wonder if there actually are any such | statements. Seems like usually people point to statements | that are Elon tweeting "I think it might be ready next year". | tptacek wrote: | The article quotes Elon Musk as having said "Like we're not | saying that that's quite ready to have no one behind the | wheel". That statement is presented as _exculpatory_ for | Tesla, despite the fact that there 's miles of safety | margin between "nobody needs to be behind the wheel" and | "autopilot is safe to rely on as advertised in all | circumstances". If that's what's getting Tesla off the | hook, chances are, they've got substantially worse things | in their files. | | The other thing is, the messages Tesla sends to the market | can be contradictory; prosecutors will home in on the least | responsible things they say, and it'll be up to the defense | to establish "no, what we really meant, and what every | reasonable person took away from what we said, was this | banal statement we made in the manual for the car". That'll | be tricky, because people have obviously been killed by | Tesla's "autopilot" feature, which they were dumb enough to | name "autopilot". | | Who knows if there's a real case here, though? There may | not be! | wilg wrote: | What I'm saying is that I don't actually think Tesla or | Elon has suggested you use Autopilot (or Full-Self | Driving Beta) in any way other than the approved way. | | Plus, when enabling either feature (which are opt-in) a | very clear warning is displayed which you must agree to. | | So I just don't know who is like, "well, I bought the | thing and read the warning and agreed to it but just | assumed it was fully autonomous because it's called | Autopilot and therefore it is reasonable for me not to | pay attention". | tptacek wrote: | "Very clear warnings" in manuals and in car displays | aren't a get-out-of-jail-free card. If Tesla never made | any communications that contradicted those displays, | they'll probably be fine, at least with respect to FSD | safety. | HeyLaughingBoy wrote: | I don't know what the standards are in the automotive | field, but in medical devices labeling (including product | manuals) is considered the absolute last resort when | attempting to mitigate a hazard. The odds of the FDA or | any other regulatory body letting you off the hook after | your device caused an Injury to Patient or loss of life | because "we said in the manual to not do that" is | effectively zero. | klyrs wrote: | He's not just a random speculator tweeting on the internet. | He acts as a spokesperson for the company using his | personal twitter account. He can't* merely escape liability | by posting shitmemes in between PR statements & baiting | investors. | | * I mean... if you or I were to operate a company like | that, we'd get destroyed, anyway. Whether or not Musk is | too rich to face any real consequences for, say, shooting | somebody on 5th ave, is an open question. | HeyLaughingBoy wrote: | Moreover, when I was promoted to Staff Engineer at a | certain company, I had to go through training to drive | home the point that if I spoke in public, about company | business, I was considered a representative of the | company and my statements could lead to legal action | against the company because my position was considered a | Management-level role. | | Whether or not he faces any real consequences (unlikely), | it will be interesting to see what impact it has on the | corporation. | wilg wrote: | I'm not saying he would escape liability for shitposting. | I'm saying that these statements are all relatively | clearly "forward-looking statements". | woeirua wrote: | I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Tesla the electric | car company is doing great. Tesla the FSD tech unicorn, is going | to end in tears. I will not be surprised at all when some of the | engineers on the AI team go to jail over this. Why the engineers? | Because the executives almost always are able to afford high | powered lawyers to avoid any serious consequences. | iancmceachern wrote: | This happened with that whole GM ignition switch thing | | Edited to add this link | https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2014/11/14/busi... | dheera wrote: | DontchaKnowit wrote: | And _upvote_ it? Wtf are you talking about | dheera wrote: | Shareholders upvote and downvote stocks with their bid/ask | prices. | DontchaKnowit wrote: | That's a real weird way of putting it. | woeirua wrote: | You can't be serious. The shareholders demand returns, but | the EV side of the company already has been successful enough | to keep them placated. No one forced Musk to go out there and | repeatedly claim that Telsa's would be able to be used as | robotaxis, or that you'd be able to drive across country with | no hands. He's still out there making these outlandish | claims! At some point, the music is going to stop. | dheera wrote: | > The shareholders demand returns | | This _is_ the problem. Shareholders demand short term | returns, not a long term safe /sustainable future and long | term returns. | | > successful enough to keep them placated | | No, not really. A good chunk of the market value of TSLA is | hinged upon FSD becoming a reality at some point in the | future. | AlmostAnyone wrote: | > This is the problem. Shareholders demand short term | returns, not a long term safe/sustainable future and long | term returns. | | So what? There's nothing wrong about that. Shareholders | demand both long term stability and short term returns | btw - if the market thought there are no long term | returns to be had, the stock price would've crashed. | | Shareholders don't have much say about how Tesla does it, | and they're actually the ones defrauded. | spacedcowboy wrote: | The shareholders can demand whatever they want including | shiny unicorns. Musk and Tesla are entitled to say "No". | | When Tim Cook was asked pointed questions on why Apple | gave a crap about environmental concerns, rather than | focussing on pure profit uber-alles, he smacked down the | questioner [1] | | "If you want me to do things only for ROI reasons, you | should get out of this stock." | | A company's decisions can be guided by shareholders, but | it's on the company to forge their own path. If the | shareholders don't like it, they'll vote with their feet. | Promising unicorns to keep the feet planted where they | are is not a good strategy. | | [1]: https://9to5mac.com/2014/02/28/tim-cook-rejects- | ncppr-propos... | Aunche wrote: | I don't see how you expect the shareholders to know any | better than the consumers. It's not like they have | special insider knowledge. | woeirua wrote: | Yes, and in a sane world the SEC and FTC would have | slapped Musk down. | ARandomerDude wrote: | whateveracct wrote: | haha so you think the Elon Musk is being persecuted by the | DoJ for political reasons? In broad daylight for made-up | reasons? | | The Trump administration really obliterated the DoJ's | reputation and people's expectations and norms. | shiftpgdn wrote: | How many January 6th rioters are still in jail? How many | tea party members were unfairly audited by the IRS. It's a | lot more than you think. | mrguyorama wrote: | It's almost like trying to invade the capital is a crime | or something. | shiftpgdn wrote: | I agree, but they have a constitutional right to a quick | and speedy trial. | whateveracct wrote: | Is a year-and-a-half that long for such a high-profile | case (potentially with co-conspirators and other related | cases going on?) Also, sentences have been doled out. | They aren't being Gitmo'd. | RetpolineDrama wrote: | > is being persecuted by the DoJ for political reasons? In | broad daylight for made-up reasons? | | I mean, sure why not? It wouldn't be anything new. The US | has been disappearing people for a long time now. The | president can extra-judicially kill American citizens since | Obama. Whats one measly politically-motivated | investigation? | | Just recently we had a major journalist/editor get | disappeared by the FBI for investigating the regime. | | https://nypost.com/2022/10/19/journalist-james-gordon- | meek-m... | | Of course, when you turn on state media they'll largely | report that everything's fine. | tamaharbor wrote: | Everyone loved Musk, Trump, Oz, etc before they became | politicians. | HWR_14 wrote: | > Everyone loved Musk, Trump, Oz, etc before they became | politicians. | | Musk has been controversial since the hyperloop, and | certainly plenty of people hated him for many years for a | variety of reasons. I could recap, but that's been out for | years so you can probably fill them all in. Which is my | point. | | I have no idea who you thought loved Oz or Trump. Oz | peddled scam cures. Trump was a failed real estate | baron/casino operator/etc who played less of a failure on | TV. | | And Oz and Trump had failing TV shows. Oz was down 17% YoY | right before he announced, putting him in 10th in the | timeslot and Trump was also down like 17% YoY for a few | years in a ro) before they hopped into politics. But even | the people impressed by "can get on TV" faded on them. | | I do feel that the Republican voting population and the | audience for those shows had a significant overlap. Leading | people likely to vote for them to think there was a sudden | shift. | kube-system wrote: | This investigation is about statements made about the car's | capabilities, not an issue with the capability itself. This is | squarely on their marketing and executive teams. | | In fact, some of their other departments are notable for | contradicting the lofty claims of their marketing. | woeirua wrote: | When the shit starts flying, the execs and marketing team are | absolutely going to throw the engineers under the bus. "We | were just repeating what we were told by the engineers." "We | didn't know any better." | | It happens every time. The best defense for the engineers is | to have thoroughly documented the limitations of the system. | csours wrote: | It's not a crime to have poor safety culture, but poor | safety culture causes crimes to happen. | | That is, you may induce your employees to commit crimes, | while not personally violating any laws. | | Or your employees may commit crimes because middle | management thought it was more important to hit their | targets. | | There is an obvious moral conflict here; the laws have not | caught up to the complexity of corporate culture. | tinalumfoil wrote: | Do you have an example where an engineer was wrongly held | to account for the actions of execs? | [deleted] | CamperBob2 wrote: | Not exactly the same thing, but Boeing certainly tried to | throw Mark Forkner under the bus. | andsoitis wrote: | But in this particular case, the guy at the helm (CEO and | marketing), i.e. Musk, is also an engineer... | kube-system wrote: | All of those limitations are documented and are even | published in the owners manual, among other things. "Nobody | told us" doesn't hold water in this scenario. Musk knows | exactly what his car can and can't do, but he sells it with | misleading marketing anyway. | [deleted] | munk-a wrote: | There is a character that is a wonderful example in this | category in "Going Postal" by Terry Pratchett - I'd suggest | reading the whole book because it's fantastic but in | particular Mr. Pony is the epitome of the pressed on | engineer | | > Pony looked around, a hunted man. He'd got his pink | carbon copies, and they would show everyone that he was | nothing more than a man who'd tried to make things work, | but right now all he could find on his side was the truth. | He took refuge in it. | Invictus0 wrote: | > It happens every time. | | Citation needed please | aeternum wrote: | This is an outlandish claim and needless fearmongering. Why | stop at Tesla, should Meta/Twitter engineers also go to jail | for their role in building platforms that can be used to incite | violence? Boeing engineers for the 737 Max? Toyota engineers | for the stuck accelerator issues? | tomjakubowski wrote: | I don't think OP ever said they _should_ face charges, only | that they probably will. | woeirua wrote: | You might have missed when the DOJ indicted the Chief | Technical Pilot for the 737 Max as a result of the crashes | [1]. | | BTW, he was later acquitted by a jury. | | [1] https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-boeing-737-max- | chief-t... | lokar wrote: | He personally made false statements to the government | nomel wrote: | I think the last two could easily be a "yes" if failing | safety tests were signed off by those engineers. | giraffe_lady wrote: | In absolute seriousness: yes they should. | [deleted] | [deleted] | honeybadger1 wrote: | Classic government wasteful spending and appeasement to whom may | line their pockets. Everything Tesla/SpaceX has done has been: | 1)Light years above the competition 2)Done with less employees | and less money 3)Completed in a timespan that makes companies | like: Boeing, Blue Origin, Lockheed, and other government money | sifting leeches look like the trash that they are. They are an | inefficient cancer and the government most forbade another | company making the big boy has-beens look as bad as they actually | are. | clouddrover wrote: | > _Everything Tesla /SpaceX has done has been: 1)Light years | above the competition_ | | Here are some EVs trying to park themselves: | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsb2XBAIWyA | | The Teslas perform the worst. Tesla is yet to achieve full | self-parking, never mind full self-driving. | AlexandrB wrote: | Are you aware of how many government grants and tax benefits | Tesla/SpaceX have collected[1]? They're as much "government | money sifting leeches" as the rest. | | [1] https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk- | subsidies-201... | mlindner wrote: | That article is from 2015, firstly, and second if you | actually look into what the subsidies are for, they're almost | all for things that any manufacturer can access and are not | Tesla specific. Are you against any subsidizing of green | technologies? | | Here's a break down for you: | | https://electrek.co/2015/06/02/complete-breakdown-of- | the-4-9... | | N.B.: Only $20M went to SpaceX and it was local government | doing it. | bpodgursky wrote: | First, SpaceX isn't getting (measurable) "grants". They are | winning bids. | | Second, SpaceX takes far less money on comparable bids than | legacy launchers. They simply charge less. That's why they | win. | | Last, they actually deliver, unlike Boeing. Look at Starliner | vs Crew Dragon. They are delivering incredible value for your | tax dollars. | [deleted] | ModernMech wrote: | > Everything Tesla/SpaceX has done has been: 1)Light years | above the competition 2)Done with less employees and less money | 3)Completed in a timespan that makes companies like | | We're discussing Tesla's self driving system. It's certainly | not light years above the competition, as it doesn't even use | state of the art sensors for safety like LiDAR, which has | predictably resulted in multiple Teslas killing their drivers. | Maybe they've built what they have with fewer employees and | less money, but I don't think that's a win given the deaths. | They probably should have used more money and employees to | prevent that kind of thing. As for completing it in a timespan, | I mean... they're nowhere near done and have been saying for | years it'll be ready any day now, yet are still happily | accepting money for their promises. That's pretty much the | point of all this. | stefan_ wrote: | Obama paid for the Model S. They are only profitable because of | California taxes on gas vehicles. | hellomyguys wrote: | Honestly surprised any of this made it past the legal department | at Tesla. Any company I've worked at has always been super | careful and conservative with the language you use to describe | anything. | klyrs wrote: | Musk _wants_ to run a conservative Tesla. Only, the meaning of | "conservative" has drifted a long way from how you're using it | here. | izzydata wrote: | You can't sell lies if you only tell the truth. | B1FF_PSUVM wrote: | Sadly a misperception. | | Modern masters deceive you with the truth - carefully | selected facts, but true. Or close enough for legal purposes. | loeg wrote: | Musk doesn't listen to legal. | beeboop wrote: | Do you work in the legal department at Tesla? | tptacek wrote: | This is Tesla, a company that managed to randomly announce that | it intended to take itself private, on Twitter. | xen2xen1 wrote: | And probably included a pot joke. | tenpies wrote: | "managed to randomly announce" is a very odd way of saying | "the CEO committed securities fraud because bankruptcy was | imminent and his entire net worth was sunk into the company". | colejohnson66 wrote: | Because the legal departments don't have veto power on | anything. In-house counsel is just that - _counsel,_ but in- | house instead of some outside firm. Managers are free to ignore | anything their lawyers say, just as you can ignore anything | your lawyers say. | | The lawyers will cover themselves by writing memos about how | they "informed the client to not do thing X, but they indicated | that they don't care," but because those are work product, | they're confidential. They're only for future malpractice | suits, should they come. | saalweachter wrote: | I'd phrase that as legal departments don't have veto power on | anything _unless management gives it to them_. | | If I -- Minion #64752 in BigCorp -- run my ad copy by legal | and they strike it all as a legal hazard, but I run the ad | anyway, my boss -- Low-Level Manager #11235 -- is going to | fire me the next day, and hope that keeps his boss -- Mid- | Level Manager #3142 -- from doing the same to him. | | If legal doesn't have veto power on ad copy, it's because the | management hasn't given it to them, or because management is | making the decision to disregard legal's advice. | StillBored wrote: | So, much of this sounds like a question of just how much you can | lie in your marketing material if you then take it all back in | the click-through. | | I'm curious how many times people have been refunded for the | enhanced autopilot claiming a bait and switch. They believed the | marketing materials purchased the car, and then discovered when | they get it "hey not really". | | But, I'm guessing what will hang them, is the question over | whether people actually believed the warnings were real or just | CYA, and then promptly treated it like a full "better than human" | AI. | [deleted] | outlace wrote: | A bit tangential but I just got a Tesla Model 3 and paid $6,000 | extra for "enhanced autopilot" buying into all the marketing | about it, and its one of the biggest regrets of my life and makes | me unable to appreciate an otherwise great car. I just feel sick | about it. The enhanced autopilot is buggy and doesn't save me any | effort. The summon and auto park don't really work. I think it's | a scam. Other than that it's a great car. | heavyset_go wrote: | Write to your state's Attorney's General office, they usually | have consumer affairs divisions. The FTC also has a Bureau of | Consumer Protection. | rockinghigh wrote: | In my experience (Model 3 and Y), Basic Autopilot works very | well on highways and is easier to use than the competition. | However, enhanced autopilot and full self-driving do not | provide benefits and are still unsafe outside freeways. They | are used by Tesla to increase margins and hype their brand as | innovative. | 8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: | Your life is pretty damn good then, all things considered. | kyleyeats wrote: | This is why I never have a good life. I can't give up my | right to complain.. | s1artibartfast wrote: | Yeah, total humble brag | tristanb wrote: | Interesting - we have it on our first car, love it, and just | paid for it a second time on our second car. We regularly make | 3-5hr trips with it driving. Maybe something is wrong with | yours? | CloudRecondite wrote: | They should probably get a head start on the Tesla Bot | investigation as well | perihelions wrote: | - _" The Justice Department's Autopilot probe is far from | recommending any action partly because it is competing with two | other DOJ investigations involving Tesla, one of the sources | said. Investigators still have much work to do and no decision on | charges is imminent, this source said."_ | | - _" The Justice Department may also face challenges in building | its case, said the sources, because of Tesla's warnings about | overreliance on Autopilot."_ | | How often do criminal defendants get to read the internal | deliberations of their prosecuting office, and before they're | even charged? | | What a dysfunctional mess. This leak was unethical, unlawful, and | unworthy of the gravitas of an office whose work puts people in | prison. | tptacek wrote: | If I search the NYT from 1990 to 2010 for "DOJ" "charges | imminent", I get >2000 results. There's nothing happening with | respect to Tesla here that doesn't happen all the time. DOJ is | a big organization; it has 100,000 employees. We just notice | this stuff when it intersects people and companies we have a | rooting interest (one way or the other) in. | maxbond wrote: | It's entirely possible DOJ decided this was a good time to leak | this information. For instance, just spitballing, they might be | saying, "hey, we're going to bring charges, but not for a | while, and we want to tell investors ahead of time so that the | news causes less volatility, and the volatility will be better | isolated to just Tesla." | | No real way to know from the outside, unless they bring charges | against a leaker. | londons_explore wrote: | > How often do criminal defendants get to read the internal | deliberations of their prosecuting office, and before they're | even charged? | | There's really no reason this info should be secret. If you can | provide extra info to persuade them not to charge you, then all | the better - time saved for both parties. | [deleted] | postmeta wrote: | how about some criminal charges for politicians who make claims | in their ads | treis wrote: | I always thought the Autopilot name and the claims about having | all the equipment for FSD were basically fraudulent and Tesla | would be liable for false advertisement. Never made the | connection of Fraud => Someone driving negligent as a result => | Negligent Homicide/Manslaughter but it seems solid and somewhat | obvious once stated. | WWLink wrote: | > I always thought the Autopilot name and the claims about | having all the equipment for FSD were basically fraudulent and | Tesla would be liable for false advertisement | | Same. I thought they'd get slapped hard and forced to stop | doing that YEARS AGO. | | Instead they doubled down and started selling "full self | driving" | | lmao. | tenpies wrote: | The whole Musk saga is basically a cautionary tale for | regulators, and a classic American story of regulatory | capture. | | The second something that's not autopilot was marketed as | autopilot should have been an instant barrage from the FTC. | | The second Musk committed securities fraud for "funding | secured" he should have been banned from ever being an | officer or director in a publicly listed company. | | The second it became clear that Tesla was ignoring the | requirement to have a Twitter Nanny on Musk's Twitter, the | SEC should have obliterated the Tesla board. | | But this is the post-Obama US, where insider trading is fine | as long as it's the Right People doing it. Where bankers and | investors can take obscene and reckless risk knowing the tax | payer will cover their loses. Where a President's son can | openly try to sell influence - who knows with what degree of | success - and the intelligence agencies won't move a finger. | So the Musk saga makes perfect sense. | AlexandrB wrote: | I agree, but I think this predates Obama. More like post | Reagan US? Maybe post Clinton? | concinds wrote: | This comment is highly misleading; the DoJ probe centers on | fraud and "misleading consumers, investors and regulators". It | has nothing whatsoever to do with manslaughter, and Reuters | never even hinted at this. | sedatk wrote: | That's what I thought too, but interestingly, autopilot is mere | cruise control for airplanes. It can't take off or land the | plane, it doesn't change course. It's definitely not "self- | flying". But somehow, the term "autopilot" for cars made me | think that the car would drive itself. That's an interesting | twist of perception. | ethanbond wrote: | I'm pretty sure autopilot in planes _can_ land them. They don | 't do this because they need pilots to be trained in how to | land them in the event of autopilot failure. I know for a | fact there are non-commercial planes, for example, that will | detect pilot incapacitation, find the nearest airport, | account for local weather, talk to ATC, and land the | aircraft. | sedatk wrote: | That's ILS, AFAIK, not autopilot per se. | jrochkind1 wrote: | Tesla apparently also uses the phrase "Full Self-Driving"? | | I don't think the claims are solely about the name | "autopilot", but additional names and marketing. | Symmetry wrote: | I've generally always considered level 2 or 3 autonomy to be a | recipe for disaster, humans can't be expected to remain alert | and respond quickly when they aren't doing anything. But at the | same time the way Tesla autopilot woks is congruent to | autopilots on boats or airplanes. Those won't avoid other | vehicles and are usually perfectly happy to let you crash into | shoals or mountains. | ht85 wrote: | Taking human nature into account has driven so much progress | in terms of road safety. | | Cue corporation selling you "Full Self Driving" for 5 | figures, allowing your vehicle to become autonomous. Except | you have to be alert and behave as if it wasn't. At all | times. Of course. | kylecordes wrote: | The usual FSD complaint is that Tesla has been offering it | for years, at ascending prices, without any date-certain of | delivering it (just tweets predicting it), without | refunding it when not delivered after X years. I can easily | imagine an eventual class-action suit requiring some % of | refund all the way back to the first car purchased with | someday-FSD (!). | | If they deliver it, then (at that time, and depending on | how well it works), the complaints of not-good-enough or | dangerous-killing-people could come into play. | | The second thing sounds even more dangerous to Tesla - | smart to keep delaying (and building up that first risk | higher and higher!) | CoastalCoder wrote: | So like Star Citizen bit for cars. | treis wrote: | If anything this just cements why they shouldn't have called | it autopilot in the first place. | sidewndr46 wrote: | I'm not sure if you're being serious, but the way "autopilot" | works in a private yacht is the captain turns it on and goes | below deck and gets drunk with the rest of the crew. It just | maintains a heading towards a destination at that point. | | You learn very quickly on the water to get out of the way of | large private yachts when in open waters. There is literally | no one at the helm. Even if they did notice you, they aren't | in a position to halt the boats travel. | gabesullice wrote: | Autopilot in planes is not remotely as you described. It is | used to reduce cognitive load precisely so pilots can pay | _more_ attention to higher cognitive demand tasks than | maintaining straight and level flight. Such as collision | avoidance, radio communication, navigation, briefing, etc. | | Your point only alleges that amateur yacht drivers act | irresponsibly, not that naval autopilot systems are | inherently unsafe. | ceejayoz wrote: | Garmin released a product that does the radio comms, | navigation, and landing in an emergency. | https://discover.garmin.com/en-US/autonomi/ | tjohns wrote: | If by "radio comms", you mean playing a pre-recorded | emergency message on a loop telling everyone to get out | of the way. | | It can't visually identify non-ADS-B traffic (and I'm not | even sure yet if it will avoid ADS-B equipped traffic?), | it can't comply with ATC clearances, it can't coordinate | with other pilots in the pattern, and it will happily fly | your aircraft right into potentially-fatal icing | conditions. It certainly can't be used during routine | flight. | | Garmin Autoland is a wonderful piece of engineering, but | even at best it's not a replacement for what a pilot | would normally be doing to safely navigate. It's strictly | there as a last-resort measure if the pilot is | incapacitated. | jonny_eh wrote: | Luckily the seas are very big, so there's much less of a | chance of a collision. Not zero though. | mike_d wrote: | You left out the part that if there is a collision or loss | of life the captain goes to prison. | s1artibartfast wrote: | Same with cars | mrtksn wrote: | We have a small and cheap Japanese car that features adaptive | cruise control and line assist that works pretty alright. So | it's essentially like line following robot that can adjust | its speed to keep a safe following distance and do hard | breaking if needed. | | It's feels almost like full self driving when you drive on | the highway. | | It makes the ride significantly less tiresome but I would say | it definitely reduces my attention. | | I can totally see how people with more capable systems may | treat the car as intelligent enough to drive %100 by itself | and became negligent. | cyrux004 wrote: | See. This is the problem. Where do you draw the line ? I | can see somebody who can come and say, adaptive cruise | control and lane departure assist which applies slight | tourque when the car sees your drift out of lane very | helpful to them. next up, adaptive cruise control and lane | centering which applies torque most of the time on straight | roads but cant do curves. THis is now available most if not | all car systems today , in the most basic version without | any additional packages. | | Then comes some smarter ones like Tesla AP or comma.ai | which are pretty good at centering on straight roads, curve | roads, wide lanes, lane splitting etc. | rootusrootus wrote: | Are there cars shipping now with lane centering that can | only handle perfectly straight roads? In my experience | most manufacturers currently offer at least one model & | trim that has lane centering & adaptive cruise that is | functionally equivalent to basic AP. In some cases, e.g. | SuperCruise, it's significantly better. | salty_biscuits wrote: | Where I live and with the kind of driving I do it actually | feels safer because I get less tired on longer drives. This | is long straight semi rural driving though. I don't use it | on tight roads or in traffic. Be interesting to see the | statistics on safety of lane assist and adaptive cruise | control. | jiggawatts wrote: | Mine has radar cruise control and "lane assist", which | gives you a nudge back if the car drifts, but won't try to | follow the lane by itself. Instead, it just beeps at you | angrily and stops you killing yourself. | | I think that's a good balance, because it's giving you | alerts but you're still the one driving. | ummonk wrote: | Yes I have the same thing and it's great. The radar | cruise control allows me to stop being focused on | maintaining speed and following the car ahead of me and | let's me put more attention towards noticing traffic | developments ahead, scanning the state of cars around me, | and keeping an eye out for various hazards. I wouldn't | want lane centering (as opposed to lane keep assist, | which I have), because it would be too easy to shutoff | and not pay attention to what's going on, and the window | between realizing the lane centering is doing something | wrong and needing to take over from it is too small for | comfort given human reaction times. | GuB-42 wrote: | One significant difference between Autopilot in Teslas and | autopilots in airplanes is that in an airplane you typically | have to prove that you can use the autopilot correctly in | order to be allowed to fly that plane. | | Another difference is that piloting a boat or a plane is | usually much less dependent on quick reactions than when you | are driving a car. The skies and seas are much more open, | with much less traffic than on the road. On a well trimmed | plane, I could probably sleep for 10 minutes and there is a | good chance nothing will happen. Obviously, it is excessively | dangerous, but I am not almost guaranteed to crash as I would | be on a car. Flying or sailing is more about precision and | planning than it is about reacting. | nneonneo wrote: | Plus, if something bad does happen in an airplane, the | flight crew typically has on the order of minutes to solve | or mitigate the problem, vs. mere seconds in a car. | medion wrote: | Having crossed oceans on autopilot, I've had three very, | very near misses - so even in an environment which is | virtually an uninhabited desert in comparison to a road, | the risk in not maintaining appropriate and proactive watch | is real. | throw827474737 wrote: | Curious, what near missed? | nsxwolf wrote: | "Near miss?! It's a near hit! A collision is a near miss! | 'Oh what a shame, they nearly missed'" - George Carlin | nixass wrote: | Will they finally be forced to name it adaptive cruise control, | as it should've been from beginning? | VagueMag wrote: | > _The Justice Department's Autopilot probe is far from | recommending any action partly because it is competing with two | other DOJ investigations involving Tesla one of the sources said. | Investigators still have much work to do and no decision on | charges is imminent this source said._ | | This is definitely a thing that happens. If you are ever doing | crimes, just be sure to commit a whole bunch of them so the DOJ | has to move more slowly. It's a too-many-cooks-in-the-kitchen | kind of thing. | 8ytecoder wrote: | And do it openly and in public. | ramesh31 wrote: | >And do it openly and in public. | | And make sure the figures involved are not below 9 digits. | That way, when you get your two year (6 months with good | behavior) white collar slap on the wrist, your French Chateau | will still be waiting, and you can laugh at the guy who's | doing a decade for bouncing a $200 check on the way out. | dragonwriter wrote: | > It's a too-many-cooks-in-the-kitchen kind of thing. | | It's actually a 5th Amendment (double-jeopardy) thing; | prosecuting a subset of crimes from a single course of conduct | may preclude prosecuting others depending on their | relationship, so it becomes important to fully investigate | before prosecution. | lazide wrote: | In this case I suspect it's also a 'Elon musk has too many | lawyers and is acquiring a company that "buys ink by the | barrel"' problem too. | | Everyone involved is going to be very careful to not end up | personally targeted or liable, and that nothing done could be | twisted to make themselves or the administration look like | idiots. | | It's a big part of why 'the rich don't have consequences', as | is the current fashion to say - they can defend themselves | against all but the most careful prosecutions, and can afford | to hire people to make sure their asses are covered (if they | think to do so). | | As to if Elon actually did cover his ass here is yet to be | determined. I think he probably didn't sufficiently, but can | muddy the waters enough to not go to prison, and would just | have to shell out some money in a decade or so to fines or | civil suits. | | Only time will tell! | nverno wrote: | They're investigating a company not an individual. The | article really gives no information about which individuals | might be liable. | lazide wrote: | Of course! We all know who 'runs' those companies, who is | the prominent face of those companies, who has repeatedly | made very public (and often dubiously factual) | pronouncements about the exact technologies and products | at the center of the investigation, who has all their net | worth tied up in these companies, who has been an | outspoken critic of various government agencies (and | relatively politically active), and also happens to be | very publicly buying a hot button social media platform | right now. | | Completely unrelated to Mr. Musk, I'm sure. | leroman wrote: | I propose to call this kind of attack LAPA ("Legal Analysis | Paralysis Attack") | VagueMag wrote: | I think it's "No One Wants To Be the Pin That Pricks the | Overinflated Tesla Stock Bubble" paralysis. | klyrs wrote: | Watching Trump do the same, I've taken to calling it the | Montgomery Burns Defense (canonically known as Three Stooges | Syndrome in the Simpsons episode, apparently) | hnburnsy wrote: | >the people familiar with the inquiry said >the sources said | >they said. >one of the sources said >this source said | | These articles with no named sources are so tiring. This one | didn't even bother to tell us why the sources are anonymous. Hard | news and serious journalism is dead and buried. Did this reporter | even have to leave their figurative basement to write this story? | rsynnott wrote: | If reporters name their sources on stories like this, then | suddenly they don't have sources anymore, and the media | becomes, well, pretty much a system to regurgitate press | releases. Like, this is how it has always worked. | mlindner wrote: | This is after last week Reuters claimed that Elon Musk was under | a federal investigation, which the White House later denied. | (Almost no one reported the denial.) I'd wait for more | information before jumping to conclusions. | | Between the regular pro-Russian reporting and this and other | issues I've found Reuters to be a highly unreliable source | recently. They're very hit and miss. | | Important also to look at the stock market. There's zero blip on | the stock ticker from this news, which means that basically no | one who owns decent amounts of TSLA stock care about this. Which | generally means that they know something that's not in this | article. | ncallaway wrote: | > which the White House later denied | | I don't think the White House denied that Elon Musk was under | investigation. It would be...completely inappropriate for the | White House to comment on specific investigations from the FBI | or DOJ. | | Rather, the White House denied that there was a national | security review of Elon Musk's projects. That's important, but | very distinct from a denial that there are no investigations of | Elon Musk. It's also a subject matter that is much more | appropriate for the White House to comment on. | mlindner wrote: | > I don't think the White House denied that Elon Musk was | under investigation. | | https://twitter.com/SawyerMerritt/status/1584648258130829317 | | I'll let the White House press secretary speak. | pvg wrote: | That statement is about a national security review. What | Reuters report do you think this disputes? Reuters reported | on an investigation claim made by others in court: | | https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/elon-musk-under- | federa... | gpm wrote: | "There's a lot of interest in this. We heard those | reportings, those reportings are not true, so we'll leave | that there. The national security review, that is not true | and I really don't have more to say on that piece, on Elon | Musk and what he's choosing to do and not to do, I'm not | going to say more from here". | | Which... sounds exactly like what the person you are | replying to was saying. | therouwboat wrote: | "WILMINGTON, Del., Oct 13 (Reuters) - Elon Musk is being | investigated by federal authorities over his conduct in his $44 | billion takeover deal for Twitter Inc (TWTR.N), the social | media company said in a court filing released on Thursday. | | While the filing said he was under investigations, it did not | say what the exact focus of the probes was and which federal | authorities are conducting them." | | They are reporting what the court filing said, what are they | supposed to do? | mlindner wrote: | > They are reporting what the court filing said, what are | they supposed to do? | | Maybe put a modicum of effort into verifying comments put | forward by an antagonist in a court case? Lawyers regularly | lie or twist the truth in an attempt to push their case | forward. | pvg wrote: | They source is clearly identified - they're reporting on a | court case which involves, you know, reporting what the | parties say in court. | cbeach wrote: | What is the government's minimum standard for a car autopilot to | be sold as an "autopilot"? | | Air autopilots rely on a pilot being present, observant, and able | to take over if necessary. Air autopilots are not infallible. | | How could the government come up with benchmark standards for car | autopilots when Tesla (and others) are actively inventing the | technology? | | How could Tesla realistically train its ML models if not for the | billions of miles of data it collects from Tesla owners? | | How much damage will this litigation do to American autonomy R&D? | | How much of the recent Musk hatred (by institutions such as the | media, and large elements of the public) is due to Musk re- | aligning himself politically against the Democrats and Big Tech? | coding123 wrote: | I've said this in the past but instead of the government just | allowing auto-updates and what not, the AI needs to pass a | driving test. Each version must be certified by some test. No, | not the same test a human driver goes through. Something super | rigourous that involves semis tipping over, bridges falling from | above, babies crawling in the road, dogs, deer, rain, smoke, | hail, snow, elephants, downed power lines. Maybe even a 10 year | old kid running in front. | | Something that all of the companies would go through, | administered by the government (not waymo). | CamperBob2 wrote: | Meanwhile, 30,000 people a year will continue to die in car | crashes while you strangle the entire industry in red tape. | But, hey, at least you're "doing something." | nixass wrote: | Will they finally be forced to name it adaptive cruise control, | as it should've been from beginning? | DarkmSparks wrote: | While I understand the motivations for the investigation, and | fully agree its an investigation worth conducting. | | I dont think it actually has merit, at least not in the terms | framed by the article. | | In most circumstances it "probably is better than a human | driver", not all circumstances, and not proven (hence probably). | | But if LM can push the F35 as the best jet ever while it racks up | a wreckage count to make the 737 Max jealous, claims made by | Tesla arent even in the same ballpark.... | | It would be a real shame if we lose any chance of full self | driving over a misunderstanding about the system being "not | perfected yet" | ModernMech wrote: | > It would be a real shame if we lose any chance of full self | driving over a misunderstanding about the system being "not | perfected yet" | | We can still have self driving cars, but they should be | developed within a culture that values safety. Tesla is not | such a culture. We know this because after the first accident | that resulted in decapitation, Tesla collectively shrugged and | made the problem worse by removing sensors, which predictably | resulted in a second decapitation. They collectively shrugged | after that one as well, and again made the problem worse by | removing more sensors. | | Tesla does not value safety, and their YOLO attitude toward | driverless cars, in which the general public is forced to | participate in their beta test whether we like it or not, is | holding the driverless car industry _back_. They are not | friends of the cause, and the sooner they are prevented from | running beta tests on the general public (which have caused | deaths), the sooner the industry as a whole can move forward. | Reckless engineering by Tesla will not result in a net gain in | safety for everyone. Safety is hard even when done | intentionally, it won 't be achieved as a second order effect | of Tesla's "move fast and break things" ethos. | ckw wrote: | If Tesla doesn't have a culture that values safety, why are | their vehicles safer in crashes than all other comparable | vehicles? | ajross wrote: | > Tesla does not value safety | | This is a weird framing. Are Teslas unsafe? Either they are | or they aren't, right? Are other cultures that "value" safety | producing safer cars? If they're not, does that say anything | about the value of "values"? What's the goal here, values or | safety? | klyrs wrote: | > Either they are or they aren't, right? | | No, that's not a binary, and never was. | ajross wrote: | It was an expression. Certainly you agree it's | _quantifiable_ , right? (Unlike "values"). Questions of | the form "are accidents, as defined this way, blah blah | blah blah, more or less likely likely to occur in a Tesla | than in a member of this other suitably defined vehicle | cohort, blah blah blah" ... are answerable in a binary | fashion. Right? | cbeach wrote: | What they're doing by removing different types of sensor is | -simplifying- the Tesla system design and bringing it closer | to human senses (ie eyesight alone). | | Apparently Hacker News thinks humans are safer than | Autopilot. So why wouldn't we advocate a highly advanced | vision-based model in cars, rather than a complex, awkwardly | synchronised fusion of different classes of sensor? | | Take LiDAR, for example. Some claim it's superior to Tesla's | vision sensors. But LiDAR can't detect colour, so how will it | read traffic lights? Its model of the world will have to be | synced up to a camera vision-based model of the world. | Syncing two 3D (4D in fact) models precisely is a pretty | tough problem to solve. Complexity becomes a risk in its own | right. | ajross wrote: | > In most circumstances it "probably is better than a human | driver", not all circumstances, and not proven (hence | probably). | | That's the core issue here, really. Is autopilot more or less | safe than a human driver? If it is, then it's hard to see how | there's any criminal liability here. (And "fraud" judgements | over "the car doesn't really drive itself" would be limited to | a refunded purchase price on vehicles that sell used higher | than their sticker price). | | And... is it less safe? Tesla publishes their own data saying | not only is it safe, it's _MUCH_ safer. Every time the subject | comes up, people show up to whatabout and explain how that 's | not a good data set. But does anyone have a better one? Does | the DoJ? | | I was making this point last year when there were half as many | Teslas on the roads: there are _millions_ of these cars now, | and every one has autopilot[1]. Any notable safety data would | be glowing like hot plutonium if it existed. It probably doesn | 't exist. Teslas seem to be safe; they're almost certainly | safer than the median vehicle. | | [1] The headline obscures it, but the text makes clear the | investigation is about the Autopilot product, not anything | branded FSD. | klyrs wrote: | > It would be a real shame if we lose any chance of full self | driving over a misunderstanding about the system being "not | perfected yet" | | It would be. But there's no misunderstanding here. Tesla | continues to misrepresent their self driving capabilities in | marketing materials, after years of feedback that tech hasn't | caught up to the promises. If Tesla's profit-seeking dishonesty | were to undermine the entire industry, that would be a shame. | | "It would be a real shame if this snake oil were banned before | we had a chance to figure out what it can cure" might be a | better framing. | bigmattystyles wrote: | I know it's on top of mind when I'm commuting in my F35. /s | | Comparing a military jet which operation requires thousands of | hours of training just to get off the ground compared to a mass | produced vehicle is not a valid comparison, at least in my | mind. Plus what LM pushes to its stockholders is definitely not | as comprehensive as the Pentagon gets. | club_tropical wrote: | Twitter deal. | ramesh31 wrote: | Autopilot is a fantastic, world leading technology. But the | marketing of it was (and continues to be) nothing short of | criminally negligent. There are over a dozen confirmed deaths at | this point, _directly_ attributable to the outright lies spewed | by Elon and co. regarding its ' capabilities. | | We were able to ban _lawn darts_ in the 80s because of a few | isolated incidents. But the state of affairs we are in now is | only possible due to the absurd level of regulatory capture we | 've reached in this country. I don't expect anything to change at | this point. | adam_arthur wrote: | I wouldn't even call it regulatory capture. More of a conflict | of interest by lawmakers holding specific company stock. | | No lobbying needed | alfor wrote: | What if Tesla are safer than a regular driver? | | What if they actually saved lives? | | There is plenty of video evidence of that: | https://youtu.be/hF96jQ0SY8w | | Would we try to stop it? A lot of companies would like to stop | it, that's for sure. | | There no doubt that a computer will match a human, than exceed | its capability, 24x7, never tired, never distracted. | | For the moment, every drive has to acknowledge that they are | responsible, need to keep the control and have to stay vigilant | every time they use self-driving. It seems to me that take | precedence to the product brochure or random comment in a tweet a | few years ago. | | Of course this comment is going to be heavily downvote like | everything positive about Tesla here. I wonder why? | shadowpho wrote: | >What if Tesla are safer than a regular driver? | | And what if they are not? | | Furthermore to me the issue is not safety vs not-safety, but | the advertisement is clearly misleading at least | | >For the moment, every drive has to acknowledge that they are | responsible, need to keep the control and have to stay vigilant | every time they use self-driving. It seems to me that take | precedence to the product brochure... | | Maybe we should hold the company to make sure the product | brochure is truthful. Because if people trust the brochure they | might die over it. | mikestew wrote: | _What if Tesla are safer than a regular driver?_ | | And what if a frog had wings? Why, it wouldn't bump its ass | when it hops! | | _I wonder why?_ | | Probably not what you're thinking, but I'd guess a lot of "what | if..." with a single, carefully-selected video to back the | hypotheticals. | wnevets wrote: | I was told FSD cars was only 5 years away roughly 12 years ago. | smnrchrds wrote: | Any day now, everyone will be playing Half-Life 3 on their | Linux desktop during their commute in self-driving cars. /s | sidibe wrote: | I'll know when Tesla is actually taking these probes seriously | when they finally take off the laughably deceptive video from | https://www.tesla.com/autopilot. | | Tldw it is a video that says the driver is only there for legal | reasons, and it took them many takes to make the video. | | That's been there for many many years and any time this topic | comes up I check it and yup, still there. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-10-26 23:00 UTC)